July 20, 2024 • 39 mins
Educational Psychologist Kathryn Berkett joins Tim Beveridge on The Weekend Collective to discuss where to draw the line when your child is being bullied.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And welcome back to the show. This is the Weekend Collective.
I'm Tim Beverage and this is the Parents Squad where
we chat about any issues to do with basically parenting
and the challenges of it. And my guest today is
Catherine Burkett. Hi, Catherine, how are you going?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm doing good? Thank you excellent.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I can see you're in your home office there. We're
on zoom and we've turned on images there and I
think it's a very interesting looking office you've got there.
It's on the floor.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I'm at a friend's place for dinner, so I'm hiding
in their bed. So just thanks for putting that out to.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
The Sorry, I was just thinking it's you know, sometimes
on the it's like when I go into my daughter's bedroom,
she's just seeing a bit of time for herself and
she's sitting on the floor next to her bed, and
I was thinking, it looks like you've taken yourself out
for some time out.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Anyway, time out with time and with Tim.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
We've got we've got out. We've got to have a
laugh about these things, don't we. Hey, look we have
a chat about this is something that has cropped up
a little bit lately, but just the question about how
do you handle it when your child is being bullied
and actually what bullying looks like, because that's probably the
first thing is to define it. But you know what
what parents are supposed to do and to step in,
(01:27):
and you know, are they risk of making it work?
And you know, how do you support your kids through it?
When do you draw the line on these things and
the whole bully allegations? And I think it. I do
get the feeling And I'm not sure what your observations
would be of this. Is bullying any better or worse?
I mean not better, there's no such thing as better bullying.
But is the bullying scene more prevalent? Do you think
(01:50):
these days? Because from my observations as a parent, I
guess it just takes one incident for you to think, oh,
my goodness, it's really bad because you've been personally affected.
But what do we know about the prevalence of bullying
these days?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, it's a really big subject in something that I
work a lot with obviously, when we're working with schools
and helping in behavior, that's a big part of behavior.
The first thing, and you did mention it is are
is it all bullying? And I really rarely think one
of the most important things we need to ask is
is it bullying or is what we're experiencing teasing? And
(02:29):
I got teased a lot at school and I hated
it and it was horrible. I'm pretty positive you can
give some examples of being teased as well. Not many
of us got through school without being teased. Now, when
I got teased at school, it was the way you
dealt with it. It's the way my parents dealt with it.
Was well, that's just the way things are. And I'm
not saying that that's okay, but it sort of was
(02:50):
the attitude. Nowadays, if our kids come home and say
about anything negative that's been said to them, we jump
on the word bullying. Now, bullying is ongoing targeted behavior.
Teasing is when I don't know, you're in the corner
picking your nose and someone goes, oh, you're gross. You
(03:12):
picked your nose. Yeah, it's called teasing, and that's called
a little bit of consequence from action. And we've got
to recognize as parents, is it bullying or is it teasing?
Do we need to step in or do we actually
just need to leave it alone at the moment. So yeah,
really good questions in provoking space.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, because yeah, some teasing is bullying, isn't it. That's
the thing. And some teasing.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Isn't bullying is bullying, and teasing is teasing. So we've got.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Something about what I mean. Is it can come in
the form of a tease, can't it consistent teasing?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Like then it would be called bullying If it's ongoing
and targeted, we would call it bullying. If it's something
that when you are scared to go. I mean I
was scared to go to college because I was absolutely
petrified of one girl because she was, in my mind,
a bully targeted me. I was the target of her anger.
(04:08):
And anybody else didn't get it, but I did. Whereas
a lot of people teased me, they'd see you doing something,
or you did something on the sports field or something
that's teasing.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Do you have you do something goofy and everyone's like, oh,
you know, you can't catch blah blah blah. You know,
because you drop the ball or something, or it hit
you in the face and you get teased about it
for a little bit and then it goes away. That's
just that's something that kids need to have resilience for. Yes, mmm, because.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
But a lot of that is called bullying these days.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So do you think that we've we've lost the plot
on the way we define bullying.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yes, I see. I go into schools and undred percent
I can absolutely say I see. And there was a
survey sent out by government department, and I asked one question,
have you been bullied in the last few weeks. It
didn't say have you been teased as someone made fun
of you, have you felt uncomfortable? You know which one
of these? It said have you been bullied? And then
(05:04):
the statistic came out and said, we've got this massive
range of bullying. I don't agree with that because you
were only given one option, and if someone had said
something because I dropped the ball, I would have had
to put down that I've been bullied.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I think that actually, to be honest, I think it's
probably a phenomenon that goes beyond just kids and stuff.
You look at when a bit of banter in the
workplace and stuff, and it's always all of a sudden
somebody has taken an HHARP complaint for something that's calm
on for goodness sake?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
You know?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Is that? I mean, I know where focus is parenting,
but do you think that that's just the fact that
we are as a society. So I don't know what
is it we less tolerant of just being given a
bit of stick.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
It's through learning, so as a kid we bounce much better.
So if your kid comes home and they say, this
has happened to me today, I want as parents us
to sit and this is hard. I struggle with it,
to stand back and say, do I think this is
tolerable for my young person or do I think it's
not tolerable. And usually it's tolerable, and we go actually,
(06:07):
maybe just walk away from them, or maybe say this,
or maybe do this, or actually it might happen again,
it's not the end of the world. And then they
build resilience and then they go to work and that
happens and they go, actually, i've experienced that before. I
can handle it. So it's this protecting them too much
as kids that's translating into young adults having these issues
(06:30):
in the workplace. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, Because also it's probably worth pointing out that bullying
doesn't involve violence of course either, which is why I
guess I got confused with teasing versus bullying, because in fact,
the worst you know how the old expression sticks and
stones may break my bones, but words may never hurt me,
which was actually something every parent said to their child
(06:52):
in an effort to encourage them to go ignore it,
tell them to get stuffed or whatever. But because words
can actually be bullying, can't they? And I don't mean
we're getting all touch We're not getting all woken touchy feeling.
But by the way, but words can be incredibly destructive.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Almost more Sometimes getting punched is way better because just
getting punched, you just get over it. Words can be
really destructive, and I know they can be. And the
thing is, we've also one of the phenomenons of the
increase in this sort of space is our smaller family units.
And if you I mean I was the foot, you know,
(07:31):
I had four older siblings, so by the time it
came to me, my parents didn't really have the time
and the energy to deal with what was happening with me,
do you know what I mean? Whereas if you've got
one or two kids and they come home and they say,
what's happened? We might have more time to invest, and
I wanted to do that with my children way more.
(07:53):
I just had to learn to step back. So if
you can, you often will and I get it with parents,
but we do have to be more aware of our
behavior and step back a lot more.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, what what are the schools doing about this these days?
With bullym But I think before I for your answer
as well, because I think that when it gets to
talk back and stuff, everyone wants to have a crack
at the schools, and the schools are doing this and that,
and yet actually there are some fantastic teachers out there
with very pragmatic solutions to things who are not reaching
for the you know, the woe is, you know, the
(08:28):
dramatic card all the time. But what are your observations
as to how schools handled these issues? Of course, it's
going to vary from leadership team to leadership team, I guess.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, Well, I mean, this is one of the biggest
things I work with schools on is resilience, and so
I train schools and resilience and we talk a lot
on it, and so of course we have this discussion.
Moments of tolerable stress is what we talk about. So
let the kids get teased. Let's the kids in the
playground have some arguments, have some little fisticuffs, And I'm
absolutely one hundred percent standing behind the fact that those
(09:00):
sorts of things are what our kids need to learn
relational situations and teach, which is will almost invariably say
to me, Catherine, we're all good with that, but if
we let it happen, the parents will step in, The
parents will ring us, the parents will tell us not to.
So have actually got schools who are willing to allow
this resilience to be, you know, occurring, but they can't
(09:24):
because of the accountability that's been held by parents and
by some of our government departments overlooking it. You see.
So the schools are more likely to be allowing us,
but they can't because of their accountability.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
What is the story with boys fighting? I actually know
my daughter told me about a friend of a friend
sort of thing, one one boy having a fight with another,
and it sounded like they sort of I'm not sure
whether it was a fight, it wasn't good, and they
dealt with it and moved on. But I think as
soon as the school's asked to get involved, it gets
(09:58):
all sort of you get into a situation where somebody
is being threatened with a stand down and all this
sort of stuff. I'm in the dangerous I'm in the
I feel in the dangerous precarious position of saying, are
some fights okay? But I'm not sure you know.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
On the same page, I'm.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Not sure violence is the answer. But help me out here,
because there is a part of me that thinks.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I don't know, you're one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well, what of my one hundred percent?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Yeah, you're a hundred percent correct, But there is a
there is a certain point where we need to learn
that if I be mean to someone and they hit me,
it will hurt. And if I hit someone and they
hit me back, it will hurt. It's called consequence from action,
and it's what we learn when we're little I mean again,
larger families. It usually happened. So when I've just been
over to the UK for a conference, and while i
(10:49):
was there, I caught up with both my brothers and
my big brother picked me up and threw me across
the room. At one stage we fought all the time.
I would beat my little brother up, he would beat
me up. That's just what you did. And we all
hung out as very good friends in London just last week.
You know, like this is called learning, it's called consequence
from action. You hurt someone, they hurt you back, and
(11:09):
we're not allowing it to happen. Yet, We're allowing our
kids to play games where they hurt other people horrendously
and there is no feedback from that. There's none, And
we wonder why violence is becoming more increasing because I
know if I hit someone, I'll probably get hit back.
It's a very clear learning and there is a level
(11:32):
of physical interactions that we should be allowing to let
kids learn consequence from action, especially when it comes to boroys,
but not exclusively.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, because I can imagine and I know of circumstances.
I think where you have someone who is being verbally
bullied incessantly, and they may be the reason that they're
being bullied is maybe they aren't the quickest with the
comebacks and they're not confident socially. And then eventually that
(12:03):
kid gets pushed so far that he eventually closes first
and bops someone. And the next thing is he stood
down because he's resorted to violence. And I'm not sure
if I'm about to get in trouble here but I
find that that's problematic. Is that something that happened. What
should the schools? What should schools do in that situation.
(12:26):
Obviously he beat someone to a pulp, Well my.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Son, yeah, yeah, And that's the difference. And by the way,
at the moment, what we're seeing is not just hitting.
It's hitting and when they go down, we've seen constant
ongoing kicking, especially to the head. And one of the
reasons is because that's what you do want to gain
to score more points. So I'm just saying that martial arts,
but as mack, no, just street fighting, doing that sort
(12:51):
of stuff. It's terrible when you're but if you're talking
about a bop. So my son came home to Form
two whatever that is. Yeah, when he came home and
he said, Mom, I'm in trouble. The school's going to
ring you. So the school rung. He wasn't in trouble.
The school rung and said someone's hit your son. They've
punched him. And so I said to my son, well,
(13:11):
what went on? And he said, Mum, no, it was
my fault. I went to school in a bad mood.
He called it a sand papered brain because that's the
language I've taught my kids, He goes, I went to
school with a sand papered brain and one of these
kids was getting really smart to me, and I got
really smart back to him, and I should have known
not to and he hit me, he goes, But Mum,
I said some things I shouldn't have said. So let's
(13:31):
just leave it. And the school said to me, what
do you want to do? I said absolutely nothing. They
checked with me. I said nothing. Mason, my son, was
fine with it. It was not a problem. He had
been verbally mean to this kid, and this kid had
been physically mean back to him, and as far as
we're concerned, that was appropriate, you know space, So the
schools should be checking with parents, and parents should be
(13:55):
realistic enough to say, actually that was that was okay?
Do you know, like that's what we should be trying
to do.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I think the schools the problem is, see if you
had had a if you were a parent, we're not
my little boy somebody you know such and such, and
didn't matter what your boyd said, You're going to see
some consequences here. How are the school to deal with that?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Because I think they would have to.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
They would have to, and I think The schools are
in a really difficult situation with this stuff, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
One hundred percent that's what I'm saying. It's not actually
the schools. And if parents are listening to this, parents
need to realize the power they have. And like I said,
I can talk to schools and they go, look, it's
from we'd love for this to happen. And you know what,
we talk about getting wrestling coaches and teaching the kids
wrestling coaches and debating. More so, we teach our kids
to have these discussions and physical interactions in a way
(14:46):
that we're legally allowed to. But we do need to
as parents really that I need to have moments of
tolerable stress, and that includes physically and verbal teasing and
low level interactions so that they can learn how to
do it for when it gets harder later life.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
One hundred Yeah, Actually you were talking about your family.
I remember because I was about three and a half,
four years younger than my next brother, and they used
to tease me till I absolutely lost my lost my
call and I would try and absolutely pummel them and
they would just be laughing, pushing me away. I don't
know what they were doing there. But it was funny.
I guess I'm just saying how there's a certain these
(15:28):
things find a balance, and I guess I would let
it out and without having caused any harm if I
landed a lucky punch that would have been an amazing day. Hey, look,
we want to know from you. I mean, what, what
do you how do you think schools should address the
issue of bullying, but in particular conflicts between kids? How
much should we let it play itself out? Give us
(15:52):
a call. I eight one hundred and eighty ten eighty
can text on nine two nine two. You don't worry
about the email because I'm with Katherine Burkett from Engaged Training. Actually,
people want to check out your work, Catherine. Where do
they go.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
To Engage Training? Dot code in z it And I've
got a podcast series. It's made especially for families with
pl today, So that's on any podcast series. You can
google Katherine Burkett.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Katherine with a K and a Y that We'll be
back in just a moment. It is twenty yeah, twenty
three and a half past five. How much should we
let kids play out their conflicts? You know, should we
let them throw the odd punch?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Ever?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
In and again, so long as that one of them
is not a behemoth versus someone who might be a
bit what's the word puny. That's a weird I'm used
for a while. Anyway, it's twenty four past five News Talks.
He'd be welcome back to the Parents Squad. I'm Tim Beverage.
My guest is Katherine Burkett from Engaged Training. That's Engaged
Training dot code on inzen. As Catherine mentioned before the break,
she's got a great podcast with Pere today about parenting
(16:49):
that you can go and just look for Katherine Burkett
with a K and A and a why. I think
you probably searched Pure as Pure's name as well, and
that would probably do the trick on the Google search anyway. Actually,
so we took about bullying and how much do we
let kids fight it out and when it comes to
conflict because I look, actually it's funny, Catherine. I was
(17:10):
wondering if boys' way of solving their differences regularly involved fisticuffs,
that probably would be a problem, is it? But I see,
I remember when I was I remember the names of
the guy. I remember the name of the boy as
well who I was friends with but we had that
sort of there was a bit of an edge where
for something about me annoyed him from time to time
and probably vice versa, and we used to sort of
(17:32):
have a fight but involved him trying to punch me
while I held him in a headlock. And that was
It didn't happen on just one occasion, though it probably
happened a handful of times. Is that a problem? I mean,
so you know, a one flare up, fists flew, They've
sorted it out fine, but then it happens again next week.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Well, I mean, you would hope that there is going
to be a lesson learned, but there would have been
a lesson learned because you guys never got into a
full blow and.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
I was stronger than him. I like, I like to
think that I was just awesome and strong and he
could get her at the head bot. I used to
just squeeze this head until he would go a bit
read and then say, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Had tat three times on the floor.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Well I couldn't.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
I had a mum I was doing I was doing
a session and she came up to me after the system.
You know, my son's fight all the time. I said,
what do you do, She goes, I separate them and
send them to their room. Now, what I want you
to understand is the brain learns through doing. So what
the brain in that case was learning was doing what
it was told to separate and go to the room.
So she said, what should I do? I said, what about?
(18:36):
Are they similar sizes? Like you said, not one behemoth
and one puny similarly? She said yes. I said, leave
them to it. She said I can't. I was like,
turn away, look away, put some earplugs in and leave
them to it. And she wrote to me three weeks
later and said I could not have believed the outcome.
She let them get to it. They ended up learning
(18:57):
that if they had a fight, they would hurt each other.
And guess what, they still are going to have fights.
I mean I still had fights with my siblings. I
still had you know, but you're going to do it
significantly less. When you learn that if you hit someone
and they hit you back, it hurts. It's called consequence
from action.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, it's funny because as we have this discussion, it
feels to me like we're in such It feels like
dangerous territory, doesn't it, Because we've become so conditioned to
no violence is never okay and all that sort of thing.
It does feel like a dangerous conversation in a way,
doesn't it, Because there.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
We're literally leaving our kids on devices doing horrible, violent
things to other people online. And I know it's online
and there's no real victim there. That you are learning
that hurting people is okay, that there's no reference to it,
that there's no comeback, And then we don't let our
kids fight in real life. And this is you cannot
(20:00):
tell me that violence is reducing because we've reduced bullying,
the allowance of fighting, or bull rush or tackle rugby,
all of these things teach our kids that when you
hurt someone, you often get hurt back. Online you hurt
someone and you do not get hurt back, You actually
get a reward, and you actually get a status increase.
(20:21):
So we've got to be really aware that if we're
going to let our kids do violence online, that we
have to allow them to learn the consequence from violence
in real life. And it's not huge violence, it's just
having a couple of fights and it is non PC
And I'm sure we'll get some feedback from some people,
but there'll be a peak of a lot of people
out there saying this makes sense.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Well, actually, we've got a lot of texts on this
where we're going to calls yet. But maybe I should
have reminded people that you can actually call up. And
we'd loved having in the conversation of one hundred and
eighty ten eighty at what point, how much do you
let kids play out? Let it sort them, sort it
out for themselves. And that happens to involve a couple
of a couple of punches, I guess you know. See,
this is where we are in a society where pretend
(21:04):
that the larger messages are that there's no difference between
the genders and everyone's the same. And yet and I mean,
we are doing that, aren't we. And it would be
deemed to be sexist to say, well, for boys, it's okay,
they can fight it out, but and girls don't. And
most of us would probably still pragmatically draw that line
a little bit, wouldn't we. Oh my goodness, we've got
(21:25):
the lines of suddenly lit up.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Excellent, let's take a call.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
No, no, you keep talking, We've just lit up. We
were out to them first.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Okay, No, that's cool. That's all right. No, And by
the way, whenever I talk about gender, there is a
gender continuum. And if you've got a young you know,
female or whatever words we want to use, someone who
is prone to fighting physically, then we're in the same boat.
But it is more likely on the male end of
the gender spectrum that would get that just because the
(21:55):
brains are different. There's a higher level of testosterone, and
chestosterone leads to the desire to find your picking place
in the pecking order, which is more likely to lead
to violence. There's science behind it, but it's not exclusive,
and it doesn't mean no girls want to fight and
all boys do. It's just more likely. So it's okay
to say this stuff. We're not, you know, let's just
(22:17):
to realize.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
That, yeah, I mean chauvinistically, I'm conditioned to the idea
of boys fighting and me being able to. And in
fact I know that the boy I know got into
a fight. I'm sort of thinking, well, he probably handled himself, okay,
and in good on him. But the idea of girls
fighting does really make me any very very uneasy. Of course,
I don't know, and I would generalize and say they
can be really dirty fighters. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Well, we find when girls fight, they fight in packs
and they do fight meaner, and that's from all research
and the justices. Judge Beecroft thought about it quite a bit. Yeah, no,
Judge Beecroft is very clear on that. We've had a
number of conversations around this. But which is because of
the difference in the brains. We do it in a
click mentality rather than a status mentality. It's a little
bit different in the brain. So it does lead to that,
(23:00):
but again not exclusively.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah. Look, by the way, a lot of texts here
going to go to some calls and just to tick.
But one says you're dead right. Boys quite often will
sort out their problems and quite often come friends afterwards.
That's from muzz And another one says, fantastic at last
someone who's sensible with the actual definition of bullying and
a wonder so many children have no resilience with thanks
thanks from sus. And another one I just read for
a bit of fun says term it sounds like you're
(23:23):
a regular little badass as a young man.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
But you haven't heard that many times, befook ten's a badass.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I think most kids are, remember me, at school would
probably not agree. Okay, let's take some crawls. Umm, Kathy. Hello,
Actually I do wonder, actually, Kathy, if you've raised a
point that I think many of us would be a
little bit squeamish about kids fighting at kind, wouldn't we? Catherine?
Maybe we're thinking about is there an age specific thing
(23:54):
for when you sort of let them sort it out?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Well, I mean, Kathy, you're absolutely right. We want to
teach them to first go for their words, to first
try and resist it. But I think we all know
that when it gets to a suit in point where
the frustration bawls over, and I think Tim you made
that point that you and your mate were mates a lot,
but just every now and then when it boiled over,
those things happened. And when we're talking about this is
(24:16):
that if that happens, we need to know that there's
consequences from it so that it isn't the first option.
You're absolutely right, Kathy, we don't want it to be
the first option. But what we have to understand is
sometimes it doesn't do you.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Know, And I'll be honest, if it was at preschool,
I would expect a teacher to step in instantly because
it's their first it's the you know what I mean,
when kids are preschool, they're vulnerable soul's he has their
first time together. I don't I don't really think there's
much place for violence at that age. Am I out
of sorts that?
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Do you know what, Tim, I'm seventy years old and
I'm still you know, I just before someone actually hitting me.
You know, it's just apparent to me, you know, like
just kick one hands to you.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think at seventy that is a fair enough instinct
to have. I think, Actually, I think Kathy raised an
interesting point that doesn't she Catherine and I mentioned it.
If I'd sent my kids to preschool and I found
that they'd gotten to a fight, and at the age
of three or four, I wouldn't be happy for a
school to let that play on. Whereas maybe when they
were nine or ten, it feels different. They've been around,
(25:24):
you know, they've helped me out here.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
I mean, even at preschool. I mean, one of the
things that our two year olds need to do is
learn to use their words and learn that their first
instinct is to be physical. So it is a really
important message at our preschools. We'll still see it a
little bit. But at that stage again, now they're still
the same size. But we're not talking about it's okay
for someone to walk up to you, Kathy and bunt
(25:50):
you in the face. I'm not saying that that is
ever okay. What I'm saying is if two people are
in a space and they are disagreeing with each other
and they're both starting to get physical. When one gets
physical for the from one person and they get physical
back to them, it's called a natural conscert. Once it's
called a learning space, and that will often happen, more
likely amongst boys, and it's a and they get over
(26:12):
it and they go, oh, that hurt. I've learned from that.
If we don't allow that natural space to happen, they
won't learn. Generalizingly, for you, Kathy, and for me, I've
never had the desire to punch someone in the face.
It's just not a desire I've had. But for some,
especially along the male end of the gender, it is
a desire and they need to learn the consequence from
(26:33):
that action. Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
So, I guess the other thing that people would worry
about is that, you know, when it's one thing for
a couple of kids of sort of equal measure to
take a few swings and then sort of get it
out of their system. But there's another one when one
is totally physically dominant and can cause to the other.
And that's and I think that's where where schools and
parents struggle with it because we can all imagine a
(26:55):
moment where you might think, okay, look, they sort of
it out fine, and there'd be another moment where it'd
be like that was not okay, and yet we let
it happen.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Or it's and off line, you know, like where it's
happened and that's not okay. But in all honesty, and
I know it's I know some people are saying that
this is not okay. But if we let our kids
have like that's so I said, I ask schools to
bring in a wrestling coach or to create you know,
get in someone who teaches them boxing or something like
that in a really positive way, and then we see
the real positiveness of learning martial arts increased behavior management
(27:28):
when we do martial arts, because you learn the consequence
from hitting someone is usually that you get hit back.
And if we can create that in a positive learning way,
then it's less likely we're going to get those kids
behind the bike shed punching each other over. Do you
see what I mean? So I'm not about condoning violence
against you know people. I'm about an appropriate interaction between people.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, I think. Look, that's the thing. I think we're
scared of these conversations, aren't we, because we think, no,
no level. I think it takes a level of courage
to say this stuff in a way. But you're in
the spot.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I would love to take all violence out of our society.
Let's wipe all violence out. Let's get rid of it.
I'd love to do that, but we know it. Back
in the we had the Who's Been to the Colisseum.
We used to watch violence as a pastime. We still
do on TV. We still you look at the TV
channels that are.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Well cage five minutes, the bloody ell.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
It's part of our human nature. We have to accept
it and allow it in a positive way to reduce
the negative side of it.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Right, we've got a bunch of calls lined up. It's
twenty two come out to twenty to six with Catherick Burkett.
I'm Tim Beverage as the Parents Squad Newstalk be back
very shortly. Yes, welcome back to the Parents Squad. I'm
Tim Beverage talking with Katherine Burkett, and I guess the
question has become, when do you let kids sid it
sort out their own differences. We're not talking about allowing
people to bully someone physically, but when kids have problems
(28:50):
to sort out, when do you actually let them go
to it and work it out for themselves? Oh eight
hundred and eighty ten eighty Ray, Hello, Oh hello, Yeah,
good out, Hello.
Speaker 6 (29:06):
Program. I mean, I'm just summed by what you guys
have been talking about, so common sense and obviously scientifically proven.
You're a scientist in your own realm, Catherine, and it's
just amazing. I just want to ring up to command
you guys. Three kids, three boys, tray them up and
you know the way they should go, and I'm very
(29:26):
proud of them. But you know, I'm just stunned, and
I'm very thankful for the great advice you're giving to everybody.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
All right, cheers. Ray. We have had some people who
are quite hot under the collar who think you're endorsing violence,
Catherine and bullying, But I think we need to This
is why it's it's not easy to have these honest conversations.
But if I could just jump in first and you
throw it to you. We're not talking about allowing people
to use threats of violence as a way of bullying
and intimidating people. We're talking about how do we allow
(29:58):
kids and usually boys sometimes to resolve their differences and
do we need to tolerate a brief scuffle.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Absolutely use the word behemoth and puny. We're being very
clear that this is not about an inequity like someone
who is ongoing and targeting behavior. It's about just a
natural environment. Now when we've got an hour in less
than an hour with your ads and you cannot delve
into this properly. And I say this all the time
when I'm doing training. We have to be simplistic, we
(30:27):
have to be generalistic. So please respect that any of
you out there have had a conversation for a very
short time. Someone probably got the wrong end of the stick.
So never would I. I've got two of my own
children and there is no way that that happen. But
I do let them at a certain level when they're
annoyed with each other and are having a I know
that they are equal. No one's going to get really
(30:48):
hurt if they work it out themselves. If it's verbally
and or physically, it's called learning consequence from action. There
is no way it endorse someone who is bigger, stronger
to continuously do it to someone who isn't. That's not
what we're talking about. You're talking about your mate and
every now and then your stillmates.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Actually I don't think I've seen them since primary school.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
But but you were, you carried off. It didn't stop
you being I'm just kidding because there was a bit
of that.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, good one.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
He'll get in touch with you now. I'll tell you
how he felt about it.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
It was exactly Bob. Hello there you good a good thanks.
Speaker 7 (31:29):
I've never done this before, so it's pretty cool. But
I do believe you guys are saying it's okay for
because friends and family probably don't fight at school. My
daughter and you keep going on about boys and the
girls as well, and they are violent and they do kick.
(31:51):
Catherine mentioned earlier that there is a tendency now to
punch you down and then kicked you. The old school,
the old school that you're talking about, and I'm sixty
and I'm talking about we used to as soon as
one went down, you probably leaned over and helped them
up off the ground. Didn't see it's come on, let's
(32:13):
go and play, or let's go back to school or whatever.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah, and Bob, because yeah, Bob, that's a really good
point because back then we learned that punching someone hurt.
What's happening now and the reason that we punched them
down and now girls and boys are both kicking is
because that's what they're doing on games. That's where you
get your increased points. That's where you start to clock
(32:40):
up all the points is when you kick them, especially
in the head when they're down. So if we can
let someone it's horrible. And so if we could let
people do this with it in a physical form, they learn.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
Yep, that's part of it, and that's what I believe.
The other part is we've got so many gangs in
this country and it's gang related and you don't let
them get up. Yeah, the idea is to get them
down there and you beat the crap out of them
and they make sure they stay down.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, And that's that's not what's that's not what's being endorsed.
Speaker 7 (33:16):
Well, it sort of sounds like you expect every school
now to have a boxing ring and or something you
want to You mentioned wrestling training and boxing training. Well,
that's gonna put the budget up for a lot of
schools that you can train every school.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, I think we're taking the threat of conversation and
extending it a little bit far. I think it's just
the general thing about it.
Speaker 7 (33:37):
That's what you guys said it. You know, you train
them to resaw, you can train them to box, and
you can and that's up to the parents.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Well, actually that's up to the school. No, no, no,
you're right now. We're not saying that either.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
No.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
In fact, I think that's why some people, Catherine, some
kids go to boxing and wrestling training and martial arts
and stuff, and they're the ones who are the most
disciplined in control of themselves because they I don't know,
they something they led towards.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah, and that's I'm not saying bring it and what
we're talking. Some schools ask me, CA's when we would
like to allow a little bit of level of this
stuff for our kids to learn, But we can't, and
how could we do that? And one of the options
is for you as a parent to enroll them in.
But if they're not into that, if they're not desiring
that stuff, don't enroll them. But if they are a
(34:22):
kid that wants in rugby and learning to be physical
and engage in these spaces and learn to get feedback
from each other's interactions is what we're talking about. And
that could be verbal and it can be physical.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I think the mistag we don't learn it.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
It's hard to learn. We just need to understand this.
I'd love to take it all away. I'd love to
wipe all violence off this earth.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
I think where we got going to happen. I think
we've got to messages maxed us in terms of people
tuning in. As we started talking about bullying, but then
we've moved the conversation onto just kids resolving differences, which
sometimes is physically and there's no excuse for bullying and
actually what somebody defined it, as well as whether there's
a relationship between the two participants in some scuffle as
(35:07):
opposed to some just picking on some random kid and
that as an assault. That's not okay. I mean technically
it's all assault, but yeah, gosh it so it's a
tricky territory, isn't it. Let's let's take another call, but
the actually before we take the call, I've just got
to read this out just because it's kind of amusing
and a bit freaky. Hi you too. Yeah. I had
enough to stood stand up to the bully retaliation work
to go respect. But the one I remember was a
(35:28):
school engineering teacher busted us fighting, so he made us
both hold out a car battery out in front of us,
and whoever held out the longest was the winner, so we.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Could love creative.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Okay, interesting, Hey Murray, gooday.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
Yeah. So I heard the start of the session and
then I came in a bit later again, and I
just wanted to relate to something that happened to my son,
who was bullied at school because he had a speech
impairment and stuff like that. But the school at the
time said, let's the same kids it three times in
a row, it's not bullying. So he could have four
(36:08):
or five kids, and he did regularly say it twice each,
so he'd actually told the same thing eight or ten
times by four or five kids, and that wasn't considered
bullying under the school rules. So I actually taught him
had a box and told him that the second kid
that said it, he was allowed to punch them and
(36:31):
that solved the problem. It only happened once. He punched
the second kid once and he was never had a
problem with bullying again at school.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, can I just say, that's horrible to hear and
that's not okay, especially if a young person has something
like your adversity or a speech impediment. Now, what you're
talking about is a really blanket rule that doesn't take
into account diversity of people. Right, So if we said
bullying is ongoing targeted you're talking about the relationship between people,
all of these things, then that wouldn't have happened. Right.
(37:04):
We do need to be really careful about blanket statements.
It's taken into account how we felt. And clearly that
was not okay for him, you know, being ongoing targeted behavior,
even if it was from multiple people. But obviously their
kids learned that role very strategically, which is very manipulative.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Gosh, it's a tricky topic these days, isn't it, Because
we are we trying to wrap our kids in cotton
wall at the same times, and yet we've got away
from sort of there's a certain empathy in having and
maybe having to deal with some difficult confrontations too, isn't it.
I don't know where we're at, but I think it's
good to have a crack at a conversation for a
(37:45):
bit on it. Catherine, what are our closing remarks on this?
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Okay, so my closing remarks. We're talking about tolerable and
if you go to the gym and lift a weight
and it hurts a little bit, but it's tolerable, that's okay.
A really heavy weight is going to hurt your muscle
and no weight is not going to build it. So
we're talking about your kids experience and tolerable. It's got
to hurt a little bit, but not too much. That's
(38:09):
what we're talking about. And if you're allowing that, we
build resilience, and we must. And it's a conversation that
needs to be had. So I'm really glad we had it.
Sorry if we've created any offense, but we need to
listen to it again and listen to it with ears
that show that we're trying to help grow our young
people into resilient young people.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
E'xcellent.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
This conversation was all aimed.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
At excellent Thanks so much for your time, Catherine. We'll
be back in just a moment to wrap up in
seven minutes to six news talks. He'd b welcome, Welcome back,
look up. That wraps up the show. Thanks so much. Look,
I think these conversations are always challenging, aren't they the
ones I'm parenting? But I think we've got to start
just having more honest conversations without getting offended every time
somebody suggests something that we're maybe a little uncomfortable with.
(38:50):
Thanks for listening. You check out our podcast. Just go
to iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective. It'll be nicely
packaged up for you. And tomorrow for politics, we're going
to have a chat with the new mayor of Totoing
it's Mahi Drysdale is going to join us as well,
and we're also going to a look in to the
US politics scene because there is a whisper that maybe
sometime during our show tomorrow Joe Biden might be who
(39:11):
knows standing down and he should anyway, that and more
and will for car macdonald'll be joining us for the
HealthHub and Hamish Pepper from Harbor Asset Management Stay tuned
from Roman Travers in my day, he's talking about antiques.
What are the antiques he's still clinging on to. Thanks
my producer, Tire Roberts. Catch you soon.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
Talks it Be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And welcome back to the show. This is the Weekend Collective.
I'm Tim Beverage and this is the Parents Squad where
we chat about any issues to do with basically parenting
and the challenges of it. And my guest today is
Catherine Burkett. Hi, Catherine, how are you going?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm doing good? Thank you excellent.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I can see you're in your home office there. We're
on zoom and we've turned on images there and I
think it's a very interesting looking office you've got there.
It's on the floor.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I'm at a friend's place for dinner, so I'm hiding
in their bed. So just thanks for putting that out to.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
The Sorry, I was just thinking it's you know, sometimes
on the it's like when I go into my daughter's bedroom,
she's just seeing a bit of time for herself and
she's sitting on the floor next to her bed, and
I was thinking, it looks like you've taken yourself out
for some time out.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Anyway, time out with time and with Tim.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
We've got we've got out. We've got to have a
laugh about these things, don't we. Hey, look we have
a chat about this is something that has cropped up
a little bit lately, but just the question about how
do you handle it when your child is being bullied
and actually what bullying looks like, because that's probably the
first thing is to define it. But you know what
what parents are supposed to do and to step in,
(01:27):
and you know, are they risk of making it work?
And you know, how do you support your kids through it?
When do you draw the line on these things and
the whole bully allegations? And I think it. I do
get the feeling And I'm not sure what your observations
would be of this. Is bullying any better or worse?
I mean not better, there's no such thing as better bullying.
But is the bullying scene more prevalent? Do you think
(01:50):
these days? Because from my observations as a parent, I
guess it just takes one incident for you to think, oh,
my goodness, it's really bad because you've been personally affected.
But what do we know about the prevalence of bullying
these days?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, it's a really big subject in something that I
work a lot with obviously, when we're working with schools
and helping in behavior, that's a big part of behavior.
The first thing, and you did mention it is are
is it all bullying? And I really rarely think one
of the most important things we need to ask is
is it bullying or is what we're experiencing teasing? And
(02:29):
I got teased a lot at school and I hated
it and it was horrible. I'm pretty positive you can
give some examples of being teased as well. Not many
of us got through school without being teased. Now, when
I got teased at school, it was the way you
dealt with it. It's the way my parents dealt with it.
Was well, that's just the way things are. And I'm
not saying that that's okay, but it sort of was
(02:50):
the attitude. Nowadays, if our kids come home and say
about anything negative that's been said to them, we jump
on the word bullying. Now, bullying is ongoing targeted behavior.
Teasing is when I don't know, you're in the corner
picking your nose and someone goes, oh, you're gross. You
(03:12):
picked your nose. Yeah, it's called teasing, and that's called
a little bit of consequence from action. And we've got
to recognize as parents, is it bullying or is it teasing?
Do we need to step in or do we actually
just need to leave it alone at the moment. So yeah,
really good questions in provoking space.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, because yeah, some teasing is bullying, isn't it. That's
the thing. And some teasing.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Isn't bullying is bullying, and teasing is teasing. So we've got.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Something about what I mean. Is it can come in
the form of a tease, can't it consistent teasing?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Like then it would be called bullying If it's ongoing
and targeted, we would call it bullying. If it's something
that when you are scared to go. I mean I
was scared to go to college because I was absolutely
petrified of one girl because she was, in my mind,
a bully targeted me. I was the target of her anger.
(04:08):
And anybody else didn't get it, but I did. Whereas
a lot of people teased me, they'd see you doing something,
or you did something on the sports field or something
that's teasing.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Do you have you do something goofy and everyone's like, oh,
you know, you can't catch blah blah blah. You know,
because you drop the ball or something, or it hit
you in the face and you get teased about it
for a little bit and then it goes away. That's
just that's something that kids need to have resilience for. Yes, mmm, because.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
But a lot of that is called bullying these days.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So do you think that we've we've lost the plot
on the way we define bullying.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yes, I see. I go into schools and undred percent
I can absolutely say I see. And there was a
survey sent out by government department, and I asked one question,
have you been bullied in the last few weeks. It
didn't say have you been teased as someone made fun
of you, have you felt uncomfortable? You know which one
of these? It said have you been bullied? And then
(05:04):
the statistic came out and said, we've got this massive
range of bullying. I don't agree with that because you
were only given one option, and if someone had said
something because I dropped the ball, I would have had
to put down that I've been bullied.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I think that actually, to be honest, I think it's
probably a phenomenon that goes beyond just kids and stuff.
You look at when a bit of banter in the
workplace and stuff, and it's always all of a sudden
somebody has taken an HHARP complaint for something that's calm
on for goodness sake?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
You know?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Is that? I mean, I know where focus is parenting,
but do you think that that's just the fact that
we are as a society. So I don't know what
is it we less tolerant of just being given a
bit of stick.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
It's through learning, so as a kid we bounce much better.
So if your kid comes home and they say, this
has happened to me today, I want as parents us
to sit and this is hard. I struggle with it,
to stand back and say, do I think this is
tolerable for my young person or do I think it's
not tolerable. And usually it's tolerable, and we go actually,
(06:07):
maybe just walk away from them, or maybe say this,
or maybe do this, or actually it might happen again,
it's not the end of the world. And then they
build resilience and then they go to work and that
happens and they go, actually, i've experienced that before. I
can handle it. So it's this protecting them too much
as kids that's translating into young adults having these issues
(06:30):
in the workplace. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, Because also it's probably worth pointing out that bullying
doesn't involve violence of course either, which is why I
guess I got confused with teasing versus bullying, because in fact,
the worst you know how the old expression sticks and
stones may break my bones, but words may never hurt me,
which was actually something every parent said to their child
(06:52):
in an effort to encourage them to go ignore it,
tell them to get stuffed or whatever. But because words
can actually be bullying, can't they? And I don't mean
we're getting all touch We're not getting all woken touchy feeling.
But by the way, but words can be incredibly destructive.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Almost more Sometimes getting punched is way better because just
getting punched, you just get over it. Words can be
really destructive, and I know they can be. And the
thing is, we've also one of the phenomenons of the
increase in this sort of space is our smaller family units.
And if you I mean I was the foot, you know,
(07:31):
I had four older siblings, so by the time it
came to me, my parents didn't really have the time
and the energy to deal with what was happening with me,
do you know what I mean? Whereas if you've got
one or two kids and they come home and they say,
what's happened? We might have more time to invest, and
I wanted to do that with my children way more.
(07:53):
I just had to learn to step back. So if
you can, you often will and I get it with parents,
but we do have to be more aware of our
behavior and step back a lot more.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, what what are the schools doing about this these days?
With bullym But I think before I for your answer
as well, because I think that when it gets to
talk back and stuff, everyone wants to have a crack
at the schools, and the schools are doing this and that,
and yet actually there are some fantastic teachers out there
with very pragmatic solutions to things who are not reaching
for the you know, the woe is, you know, the
(08:28):
dramatic card all the time. But what are your observations
as to how schools handled these issues? Of course, it's
going to vary from leadership team to leadership team, I guess.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, Well, I mean, this is one of the biggest
things I work with schools on is resilience, and so
I train schools and resilience and we talk a lot
on it, and so of course we have this discussion.
Moments of tolerable stress is what we talk about. So
let the kids get teased. Let's the kids in the
playground have some arguments, have some little fisticuffs, And I'm
absolutely one hundred percent standing behind the fact that those
(09:00):
sorts of things are what our kids need to learn
relational situations and teach, which is will almost invariably say
to me, Catherine, we're all good with that, but if
we let it happen, the parents will step in, The
parents will ring us, the parents will tell us not to.
So have actually got schools who are willing to allow
this resilience to be, you know, occurring, but they can't
(09:24):
because of the accountability that's been held by parents and
by some of our government departments overlooking it. You see.
So the schools are more likely to be allowing us,
but they can't because of their accountability.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
What is the story with boys fighting? I actually know
my daughter told me about a friend of a friend
sort of thing, one one boy having a fight with another,
and it sounded like they sort of I'm not sure
whether it was a fight, it wasn't good, and they
dealt with it and moved on. But I think as
soon as the school's asked to get involved, it gets
(09:58):
all sort of you get into a situation where somebody
is being threatened with a stand down and all this
sort of stuff. I'm in the dangerous I'm in the
I feel in the dangerous precarious position of saying, are
some fights okay? But I'm not sure you know.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
On the same page, I'm.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Not sure violence is the answer. But help me out here,
because there is a part of me that thinks.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I don't know, you're one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well, what of my one hundred percent?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Yeah, you're a hundred percent correct, But there is a
there is a certain point where we need to learn
that if I be mean to someone and they hit me,
it will hurt. And if I hit someone and they
hit me back, it will hurt. It's called consequence from action,
and it's what we learn when we're little I mean again,
larger families. It usually happened. So when I've just been
over to the UK for a conference, and while i
(10:49):
was there, I caught up with both my brothers and
my big brother picked me up and threw me across
the room. At one stage we fought all the time.
I would beat my little brother up, he would beat
me up. That's just what you did. And we all
hung out as very good friends in London just last week.
You know, like this is called learning, it's called consequence
from action. You hurt someone, they hurt you back, and
(11:09):
we're not allowing it to happen. Yet, We're allowing our
kids to play games where they hurt other people horrendously
and there is no feedback from that. There's none, And
we wonder why violence is becoming more increasing because I
know if I hit someone, I'll probably get hit back.
It's a very clear learning and there is a level
(11:32):
of physical interactions that we should be allowing to let
kids learn consequence from action, especially when it comes to boroys,
but not exclusively.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, because I can imagine and I know of circumstances.
I think where you have someone who is being verbally
bullied incessantly, and they may be the reason that they're
being bullied is maybe they aren't the quickest with the
comebacks and they're not confident socially. And then eventually that
(12:03):
kid gets pushed so far that he eventually closes first
and bops someone. And the next thing is he stood
down because he's resorted to violence. And I'm not sure
if I'm about to get in trouble here but I
find that that's problematic. Is that something that happened. What
should the schools? What should schools do in that situation.
(12:26):
Obviously he beat someone to a pulp, Well my.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Son, yeah, yeah, And that's the difference. And by the way,
at the moment, what we're seeing is not just hitting.
It's hitting and when they go down, we've seen constant
ongoing kicking, especially to the head. And one of the
reasons is because that's what you do want to gain
to score more points. So I'm just saying that martial arts,
but as mack, no, just street fighting, doing that sort
(12:51):
of stuff. It's terrible when you're but if you're talking
about a bop. So my son came home to Form
two whatever that is. Yeah, when he came home and
he said, Mom, I'm in trouble. The school's going to
ring you. So the school rung. He wasn't in trouble.
The school rung and said someone's hit your son. They've
punched him. And so I said to my son, well,
(13:11):
what went on? And he said, Mum, no, it was
my fault. I went to school in a bad mood.
He called it a sand papered brain because that's the
language I've taught my kids, He goes, I went to
school with a sand papered brain and one of these
kids was getting really smart to me, and I got
really smart back to him, and I should have known
not to and he hit me, he goes, But Mum,
I said some things I shouldn't have said. So let's
(13:31):
just leave it. And the school said to me, what
do you want to do? I said absolutely nothing. They
checked with me. I said nothing. Mason, my son, was
fine with it. It was not a problem. He had
been verbally mean to this kid, and this kid had
been physically mean back to him, and as far as
we're concerned, that was appropriate, you know space, So the
schools should be checking with parents, and parents should be
(13:55):
realistic enough to say, actually that was that was okay?
Do you know, like that's what we should be trying
to do.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I think the schools the problem is, see if you
had had a if you were a parent, we're not
my little boy somebody you know such and such, and
didn't matter what your boyd said, You're going to see
some consequences here. How are the school to deal with that?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Because I think they would have to.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
They would have to, and I think The schools are
in a really difficult situation with this stuff, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
One hundred percent that's what I'm saying. It's not actually
the schools. And if parents are listening to this, parents
need to realize the power they have. And like I said,
I can talk to schools and they go, look, it's
from we'd love for this to happen. And you know what,
we talk about getting wrestling coaches and teaching the kids
wrestling coaches and debating. More so, we teach our kids
to have these discussions and physical interactions in a way
(14:46):
that we're legally allowed to. But we do need to
as parents really that I need to have moments of
tolerable stress, and that includes physically and verbal teasing and
low level interactions so that they can learn how to
do it for when it gets harder later life.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
One hundred Yeah, Actually you were talking about your family.
I remember because I was about three and a half,
four years younger than my next brother, and they used
to tease me till I absolutely lost my lost my
call and I would try and absolutely pummel them and
they would just be laughing, pushing me away. I don't
know what they were doing there. But it was funny.
I guess I'm just saying how there's a certain these
(15:28):
things find a balance, and I guess I would let
it out and without having caused any harm if I
landed a lucky punch that would have been an amazing day. Hey, look,
we want to know from you. I mean, what, what
do you how do you think schools should address the
issue of bullying, but in particular conflicts between kids? How
much should we let it play itself out? Give us
(15:52):
a call. I eight one hundred and eighty ten eighty
can text on nine two nine two. You don't worry
about the email because I'm with Katherine Burkett from Engaged Training. Actually,
people want to check out your work, Catherine. Where do
they go.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
To Engage Training? Dot code in z it And I've
got a podcast series. It's made especially for families with
pl today, So that's on any podcast series. You can
google Katherine Burkett.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Katherine with a K and a Y that We'll be
back in just a moment. It is twenty yeah, twenty
three and a half past five. How much should we
let kids play out their conflicts? You know, should we
let them throw the odd punch?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Ever?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
In and again, so long as that one of them
is not a behemoth versus someone who might be a
bit what's the word puny. That's a weird I'm used
for a while. Anyway, it's twenty four past five News Talks.
He'd be welcome back to the Parents Squad. I'm Tim Beverage.
My guest is Katherine Burkett from Engaged Training. That's Engaged
Training dot code on inzen. As Catherine mentioned before the break,
she's got a great podcast with Pere today about parenting
(16:49):
that you can go and just look for Katherine Burkett
with a K and A and a why. I think
you probably searched Pure as Pure's name as well, and
that would probably do the trick on the Google search anyway. Actually,
so we took about bullying and how much do we
let kids fight it out and when it comes to
conflict because I look, actually it's funny, Catherine. I was
(17:10):
wondering if boys' way of solving their differences regularly involved fisticuffs,
that probably would be a problem, is it? But I see,
I remember when I was I remember the names of
the guy. I remember the name of the boy as
well who I was friends with but we had that
sort of there was a bit of an edge where
for something about me annoyed him from time to time
and probably vice versa, and we used to sort of
(17:32):
have a fight but involved him trying to punch me
while I held him in a headlock. And that was
It didn't happen on just one occasion, though it probably
happened a handful of times. Is that a problem? I mean,
so you know, a one flare up, fists flew, They've
sorted it out fine, but then it happens again next week.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Well, I mean, you would hope that there is going
to be a lesson learned, but there would have been
a lesson learned because you guys never got into a
full blow and.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
I was stronger than him. I like, I like to
think that I was just awesome and strong and he
could get her at the head bot. I used to
just squeeze this head until he would go a bit
read and then say, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Had tat three times on the floor.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Well I couldn't.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
I had a mum I was doing I was doing
a session and she came up to me after the system.
You know, my son's fight all the time. I said,
what do you do, She goes, I separate them and
send them to their room. Now, what I want you
to understand is the brain learns through doing. So what
the brain in that case was learning was doing what
it was told to separate and go to the room.
So she said, what should I do? I said, what about?
(18:36):
Are they similar sizes? Like you said, not one behemoth
and one puny similarly? She said yes. I said, leave
them to it. She said I can't. I was like,
turn away, look away, put some earplugs in and leave
them to it. And she wrote to me three weeks
later and said I could not have believed the outcome.
She let them get to it. They ended up learning
(18:57):
that if they had a fight, they would hurt each other.
And guess what, they still are going to have fights.
I mean I still had fights with my siblings. I
still had you know, but you're going to do it
significantly less. When you learn that if you hit someone
and they hit you back, it hurts. It's called consequence
from action.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, it's funny because as we have this discussion, it
feels to me like we're in such It feels like
dangerous territory, doesn't it, Because we've become so conditioned to
no violence is never okay and all that sort of thing.
It does feel like a dangerous conversation in a way,
doesn't it, Because there.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
We're literally leaving our kids on devices doing horrible, violent
things to other people online. And I know it's online
and there's no real victim there. That you are learning
that hurting people is okay, that there's no reference to it,
that there's no comeback, And then we don't let our
kids fight in real life. And this is you cannot
(20:00):
tell me that violence is reducing because we've reduced bullying,
the allowance of fighting, or bull rush or tackle rugby,
all of these things teach our kids that when you
hurt someone, you often get hurt back. Online you hurt
someone and you do not get hurt back, You actually
get a reward, and you actually get a status increase.
(20:21):
So we've got to be really aware that if we're
going to let our kids do violence online, that we
have to allow them to learn the consequence from violence
in real life. And it's not huge violence, it's just
having a couple of fights and it is non PC
And I'm sure we'll get some feedback from some people,
but there'll be a peak of a lot of people
out there saying this makes sense.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Well, actually, we've got a lot of texts on this
where we're going to calls yet. But maybe I should
have reminded people that you can actually call up. And
we'd loved having in the conversation of one hundred and
eighty ten eighty at what point, how much do you
let kids play out? Let it sort them, sort it
out for themselves. And that happens to involve a couple
of a couple of punches, I guess you know. See,
this is where we are in a society where pretend
(21:04):
that the larger messages are that there's no difference between
the genders and everyone's the same. And yet and I mean,
we are doing that, aren't we. And it would be
deemed to be sexist to say, well, for boys, it's okay,
they can fight it out, but and girls don't. And
most of us would probably still pragmatically draw that line
a little bit, wouldn't we. Oh my goodness, we've got
(21:25):
the lines of suddenly lit up.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Excellent, let's take a call.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
No, no, you keep talking, We've just lit up. We
were out to them first.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Okay, No, that's cool. That's all right. No, And by
the way, whenever I talk about gender, there is a
gender continuum. And if you've got a young you know,
female or whatever words we want to use, someone who
is prone to fighting physically, then we're in the same boat.
But it is more likely on the male end of
the gender spectrum that would get that just because the
(21:55):
brains are different. There's a higher level of testosterone, and
chestosterone leads to the desire to find your picking place
in the pecking order, which is more likely to lead
to violence. There's science behind it, but it's not exclusive,
and it doesn't mean no girls want to fight and
all boys do. It's just more likely. So it's okay
to say this stuff. We're not, you know, let's just
(22:17):
to realize.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
That, yeah, I mean chauvinistically, I'm conditioned to the idea
of boys fighting and me being able to. And in
fact I know that the boy I know got into
a fight. I'm sort of thinking, well, he probably handled himself, okay,
and in good on him. But the idea of girls
fighting does really make me any very very uneasy. Of course,
I don't know, and I would generalize and say they
can be really dirty fighters. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Well, we find when girls fight, they fight in packs
and they do fight meaner, and that's from all research
and the justices. Judge Beecroft thought about it quite a bit. Yeah, no,
Judge Beecroft is very clear on that. We've had a
number of conversations around this. But which is because of
the difference in the brains. We do it in a
click mentality rather than a status mentality. It's a little
bit different in the brain. So it does lead to that,
(23:00):
but again not exclusively.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah. Look, by the way, a lot of texts here
going to go to some calls and just to tick.
But one says you're dead right. Boys quite often will
sort out their problems and quite often come friends afterwards.
That's from muzz And another one says, fantastic at last
someone who's sensible with the actual definition of bullying and
a wonder so many children have no resilience with thanks
thanks from sus. And another one I just read for
a bit of fun says term it sounds like you're
(23:23):
a regular little badass as a young man.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
But you haven't heard that many times, befook ten's a badass.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I think most kids are, remember me, at school would
probably not agree. Okay, let's take some crawls. Umm, Kathy. Hello,
Actually I do wonder, actually, Kathy, if you've raised a
point that I think many of us would be a
little bit squeamish about kids fighting at kind, wouldn't we? Catherine?
Maybe we're thinking about is there an age specific thing
(23:54):
for when you sort of let them sort it out?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Well, I mean, Kathy, you're absolutely right. We want to
teach them to first go for their words, to first
try and resist it. But I think we all know
that when it gets to a suit in point where
the frustration bawls over, and I think Tim you made
that point that you and your mate were mates a lot,
but just every now and then when it boiled over,
those things happened. And when we're talking about this is
(24:16):
that if that happens, we need to know that there's
consequences from it so that it isn't the first option.
You're absolutely right, Kathy, we don't want it to be
the first option. But what we have to understand is
sometimes it doesn't do you.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Know, And I'll be honest, if it was at preschool,
I would expect a teacher to step in instantly because
it's their first it's the you know what I mean,
when kids are preschool, they're vulnerable soul's he has their
first time together. I don't I don't really think there's
much place for violence at that age. Am I out
of sorts that?
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Do you know what, Tim, I'm seventy years old and
I'm still you know, I just before someone actually hitting me.
You know, it's just apparent to me, you know, like
just kick one hands to you.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think at seventy that is a fair enough instinct
to have. I think, Actually, I think Kathy raised an
interesting point that doesn't she Catherine and I mentioned it.
If I'd sent my kids to preschool and I found
that they'd gotten to a fight, and at the age
of three or four, I wouldn't be happy for a
school to let that play on. Whereas maybe when they
were nine or ten, it feels different. They've been around,
(25:24):
you know, they've helped me out here.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
I mean, even at preschool. I mean, one of the
things that our two year olds need to do is
learn to use their words and learn that their first
instinct is to be physical. So it is a really
important message at our preschools. We'll still see it a
little bit. But at that stage again, now they're still
the same size. But we're not talking about it's okay
for someone to walk up to you, Kathy and bunt
(25:50):
you in the face. I'm not saying that that is
ever okay. What I'm saying is if two people are
in a space and they are disagreeing with each other
and they're both starting to get physical. When one gets
physical for the from one person and they get physical
back to them, it's called a natural conscert. Once it's
called a learning space, and that will often happen, more
likely amongst boys, and it's a and they get over
(26:12):
it and they go, oh, that hurt. I've learned from that.
If we don't allow that natural space to happen, they
won't learn. Generalizingly, for you, Kathy, and for me, I've
never had the desire to punch someone in the face.
It's just not a desire I've had. But for some,
especially along the male end of the gender, it is
a desire and they need to learn the consequence from
(26:33):
that action. Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
So, I guess the other thing that people would worry
about is that, you know, when it's one thing for
a couple of kids of sort of equal measure to
take a few swings and then sort of get it
out of their system. But there's another one when one
is totally physically dominant and can cause to the other.
And that's and I think that's where where schools and
parents struggle with it because we can all imagine a
(26:55):
moment where you might think, okay, look, they sort of
it out fine, and there'd be another moment where it'd
be like that was not okay, and yet we let
it happen.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Or it's and off line, you know, like where it's
happened and that's not okay. But in all honesty, and
I know it's I know some people are saying that
this is not okay. But if we let our kids
have like that's so I said, I ask schools to
bring in a wrestling coach or to create you know,
get in someone who teaches them boxing or something like
that in a really positive way, and then we see
the real positiveness of learning martial arts increased behavior management
(27:28):
when we do martial arts, because you learn the consequence
from hitting someone is usually that you get hit back.
And if we can create that in a positive learning way,
then it's less likely we're going to get those kids
behind the bike shed punching each other over. Do you
see what I mean? So I'm not about condoning violence
against you know people. I'm about an appropriate interaction between people.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, I think. Look, that's the thing. I think we're
scared of these conversations, aren't we, because we think, no,
no level. I think it takes a level of courage
to say this stuff in a way. But you're in
the spot.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I would love to take all violence out of our society.
Let's wipe all violence out. Let's get rid of it.
I'd love to do that, but we know it. Back
in the we had the Who's Been to the Colisseum.
We used to watch violence as a pastime. We still
do on TV. We still you look at the TV
channels that are.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Well cage five minutes, the bloody ell.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
It's part of our human nature. We have to accept
it and allow it in a positive way to reduce
the negative side of it.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Right, we've got a bunch of calls lined up. It's
twenty two come out to twenty to six with Catherick Burkett.
I'm Tim Beverage as the Parents Squad Newstalk be back
very shortly. Yes, welcome back to the Parents Squad. I'm
Tim Beverage talking with Katherine Burkett, and I guess the
question has become, when do you let kids sid it
sort out their own differences. We're not talking about allowing
people to bully someone physically, but when kids have problems
(28:50):
to sort out, when do you actually let them go
to it and work it out for themselves? Oh eight
hundred and eighty ten eighty Ray, Hello, Oh hello, Yeah,
good out, Hello.
Speaker 6 (29:06):
Program. I mean, I'm just summed by what you guys
have been talking about, so common sense and obviously scientifically proven.
You're a scientist in your own realm, Catherine, and it's
just amazing. I just want to ring up to command
you guys. Three kids, three boys, tray them up and
you know the way they should go, and I'm very
(29:26):
proud of them. But you know, I'm just stunned, and
I'm very thankful for the great advice you're giving to everybody.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
All right, cheers. Ray. We have had some people who
are quite hot under the collar who think you're endorsing violence,
Catherine and bullying, But I think we need to This
is why it's it's not easy to have these honest conversations.
But if I could just jump in first and you
throw it to you. We're not talking about allowing people
to use threats of violence as a way of bullying
and intimidating people. We're talking about how do we allow
(29:58):
kids and usually boys sometimes to resolve their differences and
do we need to tolerate a brief scuffle.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Absolutely use the word behemoth and puny. We're being very
clear that this is not about an inequity like someone
who is ongoing and targeting behavior. It's about just a
natural environment. Now when we've got an hour in less
than an hour with your ads and you cannot delve
into this properly. And I say this all the time
when I'm doing training. We have to be simplistic, we
(30:27):
have to be generalistic. So please respect that any of
you out there have had a conversation for a very
short time. Someone probably got the wrong end of the stick.
So never would I. I've got two of my own
children and there is no way that that happen. But
I do let them at a certain level when they're
annoyed with each other and are having a I know
that they are equal. No one's going to get really
(30:48):
hurt if they work it out themselves. If it's verbally
and or physically, it's called learning consequence from action. There
is no way it endorse someone who is bigger, stronger
to continuously do it to someone who isn't. That's not
what we're talking about. You're talking about your mate and
every now and then your stillmates.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Actually I don't think I've seen them since primary school.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
But but you were, you carried off. It didn't stop
you being I'm just kidding because there was a bit
of that.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, good one.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
He'll get in touch with you now. I'll tell you
how he felt about it.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
It was exactly Bob. Hello there you good a good thanks.
Speaker 7 (31:29):
I've never done this before, so it's pretty cool. But
I do believe you guys are saying it's okay for
because friends and family probably don't fight at school. My
daughter and you keep going on about boys and the
girls as well, and they are violent and they do kick.
(31:51):
Catherine mentioned earlier that there is a tendency now to
punch you down and then kicked you. The old school,
the old school that you're talking about, and I'm sixty
and I'm talking about we used to as soon as
one went down, you probably leaned over and helped them
up off the ground. Didn't see it's come on, let's
(32:13):
go and play, or let's go back to school or whatever.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah, and Bob, because yeah, Bob, that's a really good
point because back then we learned that punching someone hurt.
What's happening now and the reason that we punched them
down and now girls and boys are both kicking is
because that's what they're doing on games. That's where you
get your increased points. That's where you start to clock
(32:40):
up all the points is when you kick them, especially
in the head when they're down. So if we can
let someone it's horrible. And so if we could let
people do this with it in a physical form, they learn.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
Yep, that's part of it, and that's what I believe.
The other part is we've got so many gangs in
this country and it's gang related and you don't let
them get up. Yeah, the idea is to get them
down there and you beat the crap out of them
and they make sure they stay down.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, And that's that's not what's that's not what's being endorsed.
Speaker 7 (33:16):
Well, it sort of sounds like you expect every school
now to have a boxing ring and or something you
want to You mentioned wrestling training and boxing training. Well,
that's gonna put the budget up for a lot of
schools that you can train every school.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, I think we're taking the threat of conversation and
extending it a little bit far. I think it's just
the general thing about it.
Speaker 7 (33:37):
That's what you guys said it. You know, you train
them to resaw, you can train them to box, and
you can and that's up to the parents.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Well, actually that's up to the school. No, no, no,
you're right now. We're not saying that either.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
No.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
In fact, I think that's why some people, Catherine, some
kids go to boxing and wrestling training and martial arts
and stuff, and they're the ones who are the most
disciplined in control of themselves because they I don't know,
they something they led towards.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah, and that's I'm not saying bring it and what
we're talking. Some schools ask me, CA's when we would
like to allow a little bit of level of this
stuff for our kids to learn, But we can't, and
how could we do that? And one of the options
is for you as a parent to enroll them in.
But if they're not into that, if they're not desiring
that stuff, don't enroll them. But if they are a
(34:22):
kid that wants in rugby and learning to be physical
and engage in these spaces and learn to get feedback
from each other's interactions is what we're talking about. And
that could be verbal and it can be physical.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I think the mistag we don't learn it.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
It's hard to learn. We just need to understand this.
I'd love to take it all away. I'd love to
wipe all violence off this earth.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
I think where we got going to happen. I think
we've got to messages maxed us in terms of people
tuning in. As we started talking about bullying, but then
we've moved the conversation onto just kids resolving differences, which
sometimes is physically and there's no excuse for bullying and
actually what somebody defined it, as well as whether there's
a relationship between the two participants in some scuffle as
(35:07):
opposed to some just picking on some random kid and
that as an assault. That's not okay. I mean technically
it's all assault, but yeah, gosh it so it's a
tricky territory, isn't it. Let's let's take another call, but
the actually before we take the call, I've just got
to read this out just because it's kind of amusing
and a bit freaky. Hi you too. Yeah. I had
enough to stood stand up to the bully retaliation work
to go respect. But the one I remember was a
(35:28):
school engineering teacher busted us fighting, so he made us
both hold out a car battery out in front of us,
and whoever held out the longest was the winner, so we.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Could love creative.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Okay, interesting, Hey Murray, gooday.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
Yeah. So I heard the start of the session and
then I came in a bit later again, and I
just wanted to relate to something that happened to my son,
who was bullied at school because he had a speech
impairment and stuff like that. But the school at the
time said, let's the same kids it three times in
a row, it's not bullying. So he could have four
(36:08):
or five kids, and he did regularly say it twice each,
so he'd actually told the same thing eight or ten
times by four or five kids, and that wasn't considered
bullying under the school rules. So I actually taught him
had a box and told him that the second kid
that said it, he was allowed to punch them and
(36:31):
that solved the problem. It only happened once. He punched
the second kid once and he was never had a
problem with bullying again at school.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, can I just say, that's horrible to hear and
that's not okay, especially if a young person has something
like your adversity or a speech impediment. Now, what you're
talking about is a really blanket rule that doesn't take
into account diversity of people. Right, So if we said
bullying is ongoing targeted you're talking about the relationship between people,
all of these things, then that wouldn't have happened. Right.
(37:04):
We do need to be really careful about blanket statements.
It's taken into account how we felt. And clearly that
was not okay for him, you know, being ongoing targeted behavior,
even if it was from multiple people. But obviously their
kids learned that role very strategically, which is very manipulative.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Gosh, it's a tricky topic these days, isn't it, Because
we are we trying to wrap our kids in cotton
wall at the same times, and yet we've got away
from sort of there's a certain empathy in having and
maybe having to deal with some difficult confrontations too, isn't it.
I don't know where we're at, but I think it's
good to have a crack at a conversation for a
(37:45):
bit on it. Catherine, what are our closing remarks on this?
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Okay, so my closing remarks. We're talking about tolerable and
if you go to the gym and lift a weight
and it hurts a little bit, but it's tolerable, that's okay.
A really heavy weight is going to hurt your muscle
and no weight is not going to build it. So
we're talking about your kids experience and tolerable. It's got
to hurt a little bit, but not too much. That's
(38:09):
what we're talking about. And if you're allowing that, we
build resilience, and we must. And it's a conversation that
needs to be had. So I'm really glad we had it.
Sorry if we've created any offense, but we need to
listen to it again and listen to it with ears
that show that we're trying to help grow our young
people into resilient young people.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
E'xcellent.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
This conversation was all aimed.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
At excellent Thanks so much for your time, Catherine. We'll
be back in just a moment to wrap up in
seven minutes to six news talks. He'd b welcome, Welcome back,
look up. That wraps up the show. Thanks so much. Look,
I think these conversations are always challenging, aren't they the
ones I'm parenting? But I think we've got to start
just having more honest conversations without getting offended every time
somebody suggests something that we're maybe a little uncomfortable with.
(38:50):
Thanks for listening. You check out our podcast. Just go
to iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective. It'll be nicely
packaged up for you. And tomorrow for politics, we're going
to have a chat with the new mayor of Totoing
it's Mahi Drysdale is going to join us as well,
and we're also going to a look in to the
US politics scene because there is a whisper that maybe
sometime during our show tomorrow Joe Biden might be who
(39:11):
knows standing down and he should anyway, that and more
and will for car macdonald'll be joining us for the
HealthHub and Hamish Pepper from Harbor Asset Management Stay tuned
from Roman Travers in my day, he's talking about antiques.
What are the antiques he's still clinging on to. Thanks
my producer, Tire Roberts. Catch you soon.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
Talks it Be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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