October 11, 2025 • 12 mins
42 councils have held referendums on Māori wards - 17 areas have voted to keep them, while 25 have voted to remove.
The wards have been a flashpoint for debate - there were protesters in Kaipara last year when council voted to remove it.
Te Pāti Māori has described the decision to remove the wards as “racist, targeted attack on Māori, for being Māori” and that it's "an assault on Te Tiriti"
Last year, David Seymour said he'd vote against keeping Maori wards if his council held a referendum - on the basis that New Zealand is made up of people from all walks of life.
He speaks to Tim Beveridge...
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
EDB Politics Central.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So as you know, it wasn't a huge turnout for
the local government elections, but forty two remember there was
a vote basically on Mari re wards. So forty two
councilors have held referendums on the Marie Wards. Seventeen areas
have voted to keep them, while twenty five are voted
to remove. The wards have been of course, you know
(00:32):
the race thing. It's always a flashpoint for debate. There
were protesters in Kipro last year when the council voted
to remove and remove it to party. Mari has described
the decision to remove the wards as a racist targeted
attack on Mario for being Mari and that's an assault
on Tynty and last year David Seymour said head vote
against keeping Marie Wards of his council held a referendum
on the basis that New Zealand has made up of
(00:53):
people from all walks of life. An act leader and
his deputy PM don't forget David Seymour joins me. Now,
good afternoon, good akem How are you good?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Were you surprised or happy? With the result. What did
you make of the referendum around the Mari seats.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Well, I'm obviously a bit sad that there's seventeen communities
where people had the chance to vote, and those who
did vote would like us to be divided by our ancestry.
There's a few reasons I oppose that. Number one is
that racial discrimination does not have a good history anywhere
in the world. We should try to stamp out that
(01:31):
sort of thinking. I remember the Human Rights Commission used
to say, give nothing to racism, and I thought they
had that right. When you say that your voting should
be organized around your ancestry, what you're really saying is
that it's your race that matters most about you, and
I think that's wrong. The other thing I don't like
(01:52):
about it is that because you're talking about things that
happened before you're born, you put in place this idea
that actually we're a bit powerless to determine our future.
It is the things that happened perhaps two hundred years
before any of us were here, that really somehow matter
most and determine who we are and where we go.
(02:13):
I'd rather see one law for all and one future together.
Now having said all of that, twenty five communities have
decided to have one person, one vote, And I'm very
proud that my party campaigned for and won the opportunity
to have those referenda. And there's twenty five communities that
would if had mari rewards that now will not, and
(02:34):
that I'm extremely proud of. And I thank everyone who
stuck with us and supported us to make that possible.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Were you surprised at the result, because you know, I
guess personally, I assume that fewer count people would have
voted to keep those Mariy seats, but seventeen have voted
to keep, you know, it's reasonably close. Twenty five are
voted to remove.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I think it's an indication of where we're up to
at this point in time. All around the world, democracy
is under real pressure. Simple ideas like each person should
have equal rights regardless of their identity, you know, not
so long ago, that was part of the post World
War II consensus because after people saw where these kinds
(03:19):
of discriminatory ideas ultimately lead, they said no, no, no,
we don't want that, and people like out. Then Prime
Minister Peter Fraser went off to the UN signed an
agreement it's called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that
said all of us are now over the last seventy
years or so, that basic idea of equality before the
(03:42):
law has become less universally accepted, and people like me
who stand up and fight for it often get all
sorts of bizarre accusations. I think the most bizarre of
all comes from the likes of Tippatu Maori, who say
that it's somehow racists to want to reject racial discrimination.
(04:05):
That only makes sense because they believe that Mari are
somehow you a special people, which of is the definition
of racism itself. But that's the kind of topsy turvy
world we're in.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So will this affect for the councils that have either
got rid of Maria representation otherwise? Do you think does
it make any difference to council's responsibilities to consult with
EWI and MARI on issues that affect them all. Does
those obligations remain unchanged?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Well, I don't see why it would make a difference.
In some places there's an obligation to consult with EWI,
particularly under planning law. The government is in the course
of changing the Resource Management Act let's see exactly where
that lands. But I expect that there will be a
lot less of an ability for people to say no
(04:58):
to what others can do on their property because of
who their ancestors were. That's one of the things that's
holding us back as a country. On the other hand,
I think it's really important that you know, we're regardless
of how you're elected or who you are, that you
are there elected to servetain people who pay the rates,
(05:20):
own the property, and live in the community. That's how
you should do it. We shouldn't be assuming that because
a person has a particular racial background or they're elected
in a certain sease, that they're better or worse. I mean,
that's that's what we're against.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I mean, I don't I have mixed feelings about quoting
to Party Mari on this stuff, because they've got their
own challenges right now with you know who and how
there is it representing people. But they have called the
removals a racist, targeted attack. I think I know what
you're going to say, but what's your response to that?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, I think it's really important to just get back
to the real basics of what we're talking about so
we can have a conversation with each other on some
agreed terms. And when I look at a word like
racist or racism, I think it sounds a bit like sexism,
which is where you treat a person differently based on
(06:14):
their sex, rather than just taking them for the whole
person that there are. You know, when you talk about racism,
it's generally the acts of treating a person differently based
on their race, rather than just taking them as you
find them and treating them as a whole person. We've
spent years trying to get rid of that kind of
(06:37):
wrongful discrimination out of our society. We've done pretty well
in New Zealand. I would say we would be one
of the most successful societies in history that treating everybody equally.
But it's almost as though having got that achievement, there's
now a stampede on to try and run back in
the opposite direction. So look, I hear what Zapadi Mara
(06:59):
say that I would just challenge them, what is your
definition of racism and how can you say that it
is racist? But when someone doesn't want to treat someone
differently based on race, I guess.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
The ongoing challenge for any democracy is how you look
after groups that are minority voices. I mean, obviously the
MARI sets are a specific way of supporting a safe
for that particular group. But how do you what is
the best response to that about how to look after
the interests of minority voices.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Well, you treat every individual person with equal respect and
dignity and allow them to flourish in their own way.
Because once you start saying, well there's a particular way
to treat Mary, well, actually, you know, maybe a surprise
to some, but not MARI people think the same. There's
three Mari and the act Caucus who certainly don't agree
(07:50):
with to party Mari's view of the world, and it
seems that there's actually a bit of disagreement even within
their own party. So I would just say, you know,
start by taking each person's you find them, treat them
with respect and dignity. People express their own culture and
language and try and flourish in their own way. That
should be the promise of New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Actually, this may be an unfair question because you might
not have those stats, but do you know how many
politicians who have been elected separately to the MARI wards,
how many have been elected that actually do have Mari
ancestry roughly a percentage of princete. I Meantania taps or
doesn't stand on a Mario mbishes mate.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I certainly don't know from this latest election. Those results
are still being colated and they're not even finalized, but
I understand that in previous elections the proportion of councilors
with Mari background has been greater than the New Zealand
population as a whole. So it's another example of where
Mari have actually been over represented if you want to
(08:51):
get into the stats. But actually does it matter? I
mean again, why is it that of all the interesting
things about a person, their skills, their abilities, their their
hopes and dreams, their their their gender, their background, their history,
where they grew up, what lan would they speak of it?
There's so many things about a person, and we always
seem to come back to their race.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I guess because you know it's all about representation. I
sort of think, well, if it's happening anyway because people
are voting that way, then who cares? But I understand
your point. Hey, just lastly.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
To ask me about the me thing?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Ah okay, well just maybe one extra question, Hey, what's
your Is this a settled question now or is there
going to do you would you want to see continuing
referendums on this in councils that have MARI seats.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Well, we you know, we campaigned for and won a
referendum and a vote. People have had to vote. I
think we have to respect where they've got to. But
you know, my position remains crystal clear. One of my
missions is to remove discrimination from our laws and our society,
so people can be taken for who they are, not
(10:02):
put in some boxes of stereotype, because that's the thing
that takes us in the wrong direction and has throughout history.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
So not the end of this issue, then, is it.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Well, it's the end of this particular policy, but the
issue will continue to be litigated in New Zealand, just
as I say about the treaty principle. Still, you know,
our friends abandoned us and we lost the vote. We
didn't lose the debate, and that will come back.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Hey, you did hint at it.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I'm talking to Simon Watts about the new methane goals.
How are you feeling about that announcement? We're reducing our
methane targets to a lower level of fourteen to twenty
four percent lower rather than twenty four to forty something percent.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
You know, nine years ago, I was the only person
to vote against the earthquake law. Now we're reversing that.
Seven years ago, I was the only person to vote
against the zero CARBONAC and now we're seriously fixing that.
So I'm feeling good about the fact that my party
has taken principal positions often voted against the whole party,
(11:09):
and we're now going to see the things that we're
saying agreed with. Even though National and New Zealand first
both voted for the zero carbonacs and put these meat
and targets in place. Now we are on the same
song sheet and it is going to be giving relief
to the people of New Zealand and rural New Zealand
in particular. We're not going to send the customers of
(11:31):
the most efficient farmers in the world offshore where they
actually omit more to produce the same food. That would
be shooting ourselves in both feet, one bullet for the
climate and the other for the New Zealand economy.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Excellent, Hey David, really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks
for your comments.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Enjoy the Reay pleasure, thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
By that's ach Party Leader associate and he's also Deputy
Prime Minister. A bunch of things of course as well.
But we all know David seymore so. We'll be back
in just a moment because we're going to have a
chat with the Climate Change Minister, Simon Watt's about the
new methane targets of twenty fifty. I mean, it seems
a long way off, but it's stuff that's going to
be taking affecting us straight away pretty much. So we're
(12:15):
going to be talking with Simon Watts in just a moment,
the Climate Change Minister. It's coming up to twenty two
minutes past three.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
talk edb weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
EDB Politics Central.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So as you know, it wasn't a huge turnout for
the local government elections, but forty two remember there was
a vote basically on Mari re wards. So forty two
councilors have held referendums on the Marie Wards. Seventeen areas
have voted to keep them, while twenty five are voted
to remove. The wards have been of course, you know
(00:32):
the race thing. It's always a flashpoint for debate. There
were protesters in Kipro last year when the council voted
to remove and remove it to party. Mari has described
the decision to remove the wards as a racist targeted
attack on Mario for being Mari and that's an assault
on Tynty and last year David Seymour said head vote
against keeping Marie Wards of his council held a referendum
on the basis that New Zealand has made up of
(00:53):
people from all walks of life. An act leader and
his deputy PM don't forget David Seymour joins me. Now,
good afternoon, good akem How are you good?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Were you surprised or happy? With the result. What did
you make of the referendum around the Mari seats.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Well, I'm obviously a bit sad that there's seventeen communities
where people had the chance to vote, and those who
did vote would like us to be divided by our ancestry.
There's a few reasons I oppose that. Number one is
that racial discrimination does not have a good history anywhere
in the world. We should try to stamp out that
(01:31):
sort of thinking. I remember the Human Rights Commission used
to say, give nothing to racism, and I thought they
had that right. When you say that your voting should
be organized around your ancestry, what you're really saying is
that it's your race that matters most about you, and
I think that's wrong. The other thing I don't like
(01:52):
about it is that because you're talking about things that
happened before you're born, you put in place this idea
that actually we're a bit powerless to determine our future.
It is the things that happened perhaps two hundred years
before any of us were here, that really somehow matter
most and determine who we are and where we go.
(02:13):
I'd rather see one law for all and one future together.
Now having said all of that, twenty five communities have
decided to have one person, one vote, And I'm very
proud that my party campaigned for and won the opportunity
to have those referenda. And there's twenty five communities that
would if had mari rewards that now will not, and
(02:34):
that I'm extremely proud of. And I thank everyone who
stuck with us and supported us to make that possible.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Were you surprised at the result, because you know, I
guess personally, I assume that fewer count people would have
voted to keep those Mariy seats, but seventeen have voted
to keep, you know, it's reasonably close. Twenty five are
voted to remove.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I think it's an indication of where we're up to
at this point in time. All around the world, democracy
is under real pressure. Simple ideas like each person should
have equal rights regardless of their identity, you know, not
so long ago, that was part of the post World
War II consensus because after people saw where these kinds
(03:19):
of discriminatory ideas ultimately lead, they said no, no, no,
we don't want that, and people like out. Then Prime
Minister Peter Fraser went off to the UN signed an
agreement it's called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that
said all of us are now over the last seventy
years or so, that basic idea of equality before the
(03:42):
law has become less universally accepted, and people like me
who stand up and fight for it often get all
sorts of bizarre accusations. I think the most bizarre of
all comes from the likes of Tippatu Maori, who say
that it's somehow racists to want to reject racial discrimination.
(04:05):
That only makes sense because they believe that Mari are
somehow you a special people, which of is the definition
of racism itself. But that's the kind of topsy turvy
world we're in.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So will this affect for the councils that have either
got rid of Maria representation otherwise? Do you think does
it make any difference to council's responsibilities to consult with
EWI and MARI on issues that affect them all. Does
those obligations remain unchanged?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Well, I don't see why it would make a difference.
In some places there's an obligation to consult with EWI,
particularly under planning law. The government is in the course
of changing the Resource Management Act let's see exactly where
that lands. But I expect that there will be a
lot less of an ability for people to say no
(04:58):
to what others can do on their property because of
who their ancestors were. That's one of the things that's
holding us back as a country. On the other hand,
I think it's really important that you know, we're regardless
of how you're elected or who you are, that you
are there elected to servetain people who pay the rates,
(05:20):
own the property, and live in the community. That's how
you should do it. We shouldn't be assuming that because
a person has a particular racial background or they're elected
in a certain sease, that they're better or worse. I mean,
that's that's what we're against.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I mean, I don't I have mixed feelings about quoting
to Party Mari on this stuff, because they've got their
own challenges right now with you know who and how
there is it representing people. But they have called the
removals a racist, targeted attack. I think I know what
you're going to say, but what's your response to that?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, I think it's really important to just get back
to the real basics of what we're talking about so
we can have a conversation with each other on some
agreed terms. And when I look at a word like
racist or racism, I think it sounds a bit like sexism,
which is where you treat a person differently based on
(06:14):
their sex, rather than just taking them for the whole
person that there are. You know, when you talk about racism,
it's generally the acts of treating a person differently based
on their race, rather than just taking them as you
find them and treating them as a whole person. We've
spent years trying to get rid of that kind of
(06:37):
wrongful discrimination out of our society. We've done pretty well
in New Zealand. I would say we would be one
of the most successful societies in history that treating everybody equally.
But it's almost as though having got that achievement, there's
now a stampede on to try and run back in
the opposite direction. So look, I hear what Zapadi Mara
(06:59):
say that I would just challenge them, what is your
definition of racism and how can you say that it
is racist? But when someone doesn't want to treat someone
differently based on race, I guess.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
The ongoing challenge for any democracy is how you look
after groups that are minority voices. I mean, obviously the
MARI sets are a specific way of supporting a safe
for that particular group. But how do you what is
the best response to that about how to look after
the interests of minority voices.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Well, you treat every individual person with equal respect and
dignity and allow them to flourish in their own way.
Because once you start saying, well there's a particular way
to treat Mary, well, actually, you know, maybe a surprise
to some, but not MARI people think the same. There's
three Mari and the act Caucus who certainly don't agree
(07:50):
with to party Mari's view of the world, and it
seems that there's actually a bit of disagreement even within
their own party. So I would just say, you know,
start by taking each person's you find them, treat them
with respect and dignity. People express their own culture and
language and try and flourish in their own way. That
should be the promise of New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Actually, this may be an unfair question because you might
not have those stats, but do you know how many
politicians who have been elected separately to the MARI wards,
how many have been elected that actually do have Mari
ancestry roughly a percentage of princete. I Meantania taps or
doesn't stand on a Mario mbishes mate.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I certainly don't know from this latest election. Those results
are still being colated and they're not even finalized, but
I understand that in previous elections the proportion of councilors
with Mari background has been greater than the New Zealand
population as a whole. So it's another example of where
Mari have actually been over represented if you want to
(08:51):
get into the stats. But actually does it matter? I
mean again, why is it that of all the interesting
things about a person, their skills, their abilities, their their
hopes and dreams, their their their gender, their background, their history,
where they grew up, what lan would they speak of it?
There's so many things about a person, and we always
seem to come back to their race.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I guess because you know it's all about representation. I
sort of think, well, if it's happening anyway because people
are voting that way, then who cares? But I understand
your point. Hey, just lastly.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
To ask me about the me thing?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Ah okay, well just maybe one extra question, Hey, what's
your Is this a settled question now or is there
going to do you would you want to see continuing
referendums on this in councils that have MARI seats.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Well, we you know, we campaigned for and won a
referendum and a vote. People have had to vote. I
think we have to respect where they've got to. But
you know, my position remains crystal clear. One of my
missions is to remove discrimination from our laws and our society,
so people can be taken for who they are, not
(10:02):
put in some boxes of stereotype, because that's the thing
that takes us in the wrong direction and has throughout history.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
So not the end of this issue, then, is it.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Well, it's the end of this particular policy, but the
issue will continue to be litigated in New Zealand, just
as I say about the treaty principle. Still, you know,
our friends abandoned us and we lost the vote. We
didn't lose the debate, and that will come back.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Hey, you did hint at it.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I'm talking to Simon Watts about the new methane goals.
How are you feeling about that announcement? We're reducing our
methane targets to a lower level of fourteen to twenty
four percent lower rather than twenty four to forty something percent.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
You know, nine years ago, I was the only person
to vote against the earthquake law. Now we're reversing that.
Seven years ago, I was the only person to vote
against the zero CARBONAC and now we're seriously fixing that.
So I'm feeling good about the fact that my party
has taken principal positions often voted against the whole party,
(11:09):
and we're now going to see the things that we're
saying agreed with. Even though National and New Zealand first
both voted for the zero carbonacs and put these meat
and targets in place. Now we are on the same
song sheet and it is going to be giving relief
to the people of New Zealand and rural New Zealand
in particular. We're not going to send the customers of
(11:31):
the most efficient farmers in the world offshore where they
actually omit more to produce the same food. That would
be shooting ourselves in both feet, one bullet for the
climate and the other for the New Zealand economy.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Excellent, Hey David, really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks
for your comments.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Enjoy the Reay pleasure, thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
By that's ach Party Leader associate and he's also Deputy
Prime Minister. A bunch of things of course as well.
But we all know David seymore so. We'll be back
in just a moment because we're going to have a
chat with the Climate Change Minister, Simon Watt's about the
new methane targets of twenty fifty. I mean, it seems
a long way off, but it's stuff that's going to
be taking affecting us straight away pretty much. So we're
(12:15):
going to be talking with Simon Watts in just a moment,
the Climate Change Minister. It's coming up to twenty two
minutes past three.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
talk edb weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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