October 26, 2025 • 41 mins
Trusts are hardly mentioned outside of when wealth tax is in the news, or when someone mentions their accountant told them to get one.
One side of the political aisle seems to have a good list of reasons as to why someone would need a trust, while the other side seems to be convinced that essentially the only reason anyone would have one would be to hide assets.
So what is the real purpose of a trust?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
b M.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Seven Nation.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hold taking that bad I'm talking and welcome back to
the Weekend Collective. I'm Tim Beverage. And by the way,
I should have mentioned this is the previous hour, But
(00:42):
do you know that you can we can get the
podcast to just go and check out News Talks Beat
Up Curtains. But you're not going to do that now
because you're going to stick around for smart Money because
we're going to have a chat about trusts and it's
something we've we've talked about before. And my guest, who
I'm about to introduce, is we have a busy hour,
so if you've got any questions on trusts, then jump
(01:05):
on the blower and give us a call. But it's
funny that it's one of those things with trusts that
often people don't really think about them until they think
they need it. And I have just a rough rule
of thumb, which is based on nothing more than just
my own crude reckon on things that by the time
you think you need a trust, it's probably too late.
(01:25):
You should really think about having a trust before you
think about having a trust. It's a little bit chicken
and egg because by the time you think, jeepest we
really needed to set up a trust to protect our assets, well,
probably it's going to be too late anyway. So we're
going to have a chat about trusts on the you know,
on the political side of political aisle, one side seems
to have a good list of reasons as to why
(01:46):
someone would need a trust, while the other side seems
to be convinced that essentially the only reason anyone would
ever have a trust is to hide their assets, and
cynically speaking, that does seem like a common reason while
people have trust. There are other legitimate reasons as well.
When you want to protect my assets for your kids,
(02:07):
or there's split up a relationship. I'm making things up
as a go along. But what is the real purpose
of a trust and what's the difference between using one
legitimately and trying it on with I don't know any
government agency that wants to get it and get their
hands on your cash. So when should you have a trust?
Who should have it? What's legit what's illegitimate use of
a trust? All of those questions are going to be
(02:29):
addressed hopefully by she is the managing director for New
Zealand Family Trust Services. And her name is Janet Zuccoa.
Interesting spelling of Zukoa, by the way, just if you're
looking her up online x Uccoa. And she's with us
for smart Money. Janet, Hello, how are you hello?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
How are you doing? Tim?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I'm all right? Actually funny enough. You just the connection
of the way the world goes around. Of course you
know Greg Pain because you know how good Greek Pain
is a biomechanist.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
He is phenomenal. I had quite a bad accident in
December last year and I had had five people on
the team, had the tax, the access people helping me
just about every day, and Greg Pain was one of
those five. He is so worthwhile going to.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Such a nice chap, isn't he to love? Greg? Hey? Anyway,
he's probably listening on the way home, so you'll be
feeling the love the ego Greg, Now, what is I
reckon that? I'm not sure if we dug into this
too much. We have had some broad conversations around trusts
and people calling up why what is the most common
reason people get a trust?
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Well, there's a few reasons, but probably the most common
reason is to protect assets, and that is assets in
relation to business and professional and professional reasons. You've also
got situations now where where you've got assets of special
significance like batchers and farms and those sorts of assets
(03:55):
that people want to pass on, so it's asset transference.
Then we've got personal relationships. I think about a third
of New Zealanders go through second and third relationships.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
That is actually, to me, that is a really legitimate
reason for a trusters. You've got kids from previous relationships
and you're heading into another, you fall in love again,
and you don't want to have that split in half.
So that to me is a legitimate way of.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
You don't want to end up like the GST client,
right with fifteen percent of your overall wealth left, right
after you've done two or three relationships.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So ah, that's right. I'm now remember that because you
call them your GST clients, they finally come to you
for some advice when they've got fifteen percent of what
they have.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Their original wealth. So when people do get rid of
a second or third relationship, and everybody's entitled to a
futurey out, yeah yeah exactly. So when they get into
those relationships, they are mostly very happy to share going forward,
but they do want to protect what they bring to
the relationship for their children should anything unto what happen.
(04:56):
And you do find that as those relationships mature, that
often that goes by the bye. But what I say
is trust in that late and that's a circumstance is
not enough. You do have to have a property relationship
agreement as well. That's that's important to have to have both.
I think the other reasons why people people take on
(05:17):
trust is to protect vulnerable dependence. I mean, you may
have that you that you really got to got to
look after. And of course it's to manage tax efficiently.
And a lot of people think there's no tax benefits
whatsoever to trust, but that's not because.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Sometimes people do set them up because they think, if
you know, if business goes bung, I want to have
something saved in a trust that the official and you
can't get you can't get are those are those more
frequently looked through? Those sorts of trusts or trust.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Can can indeed be looked through.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
So by the way you should explain what looked through me.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Yeah, So that means in looking through them, they just
almost disregard them. And so that really that might possibly
fall into an illegitimate use of a trust for want
of a better word, that there's a trust set up
for forguenent purposes, or trust to proceed to conceal proceeds
of crime, or trust that interfere with people's property rights,
(06:18):
or the last one, as you mentioned, is to defeat creditors.
So if you try to transfer your home one month
before your business is going to go into receivership, then
I'm water feeling the official assum I was going to
have something to say about that.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Actually, by the way, before we take our calls and
get into this, I think we should actually take the
moment to explain what a trust is. Because you hear
the words so often it's a trust this and trust that.
But a trust is essentially it's it's like a different
It's a separate person, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Yeah, it's a judiciary relationship. And so.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
If you set up a trust, what have you created?
Speaker 4 (06:54):
What you created a relationship between trustees and beneficiary. So
the settler is the person that sets it up, and
the trustees are the people that run it. And sometimes
settlers our trustees is the.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Trust itself like a separate person. It's like a separate impact.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Yes, we call it a use and it's not really
an entity because at law trust wially exist. At law.
It's definitely a relationship. It's not like a company, so.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Something is held in trust. So there's not x y
Z Trust is an entity like x y Z Limited
is an entity.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
No, and don't. We don't have a register of trust
yet in New Zealand. We may one day. And that's
not to say that that we shouldn't have Again, that's
that's a political potato. That's a very hot potato. Some
countries do have lists of trusts.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
That's actually quite an interesting question because if you are
someone who doesn't like trusts and you want to know,
so you might be doing business with someone, it would
it be relevant to you to know that they've got
a lot of their wealth set up in a trust,
and that would be an argument for register. This is
not what we're going to be.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely it would. And frequently you do find
that when people are heading into litigation, they're sniffing around
for for the other side's assets and what are they
or absolutely legitimately, on a regular basis, especially on a
hot property market, I will get calls and emails where
somebody has looked at a certificate title to a property
(08:24):
and they've seen that there's a professional trustee like me
sitting there, and they're going up and said, look, we're
really interested in buying that property. You know, we think
that this is your client, and of course I can't
confirm or deny that that's my client. So I simply say, oh,
what would you what would you want? And they said, well,
we really want to talk to them because we want
to buy and so.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
And you can't. You have to pretend you don't know
an that.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Well, what I say is I can't confirm or deny,
but give me your details.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I guess if they're not a client either, he'd have
to say the same thing. Yes, absolutely, yeah I can't.
Well what'd you say? I can't or confirm or give
me your details, but it'll be a waste of time.
Sorry anyway, Okay, Look, if you've got any questions on
trusts and whether you should because lots of questions I've
(09:10):
got for Janet as well, but we'd love love you
to take the opportunity to talk to Janet. She is
managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services Trust so
her thing. If you've got any questions around it about
whether you should be getting a trust, if you're dealing
with people who are trustees, anything around trust, then give
us a call eight hundred eighty ten eighty text nine
(09:31):
to nine two. And before I get on to any
more of my questions, of which I've got quite a few,
let's go to Jeff Gooday, Hello, Jeff, you're on.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
A good mate. How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Good? Thanks?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
How are you even a bit of a battle here
of the trailer?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Okay, okay, you're right on the radio. Let's go thank you?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Is it Tim?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, good morning, I mean good afternoon. How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I'm good you're with Janet? Who's that trust expert in me?
Speaker 5 (10:01):
So?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
What what? What question have you got?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
What I've got? I've got a quest I've set up
for trust. I've set up for trust for a charity, right, yeah,
and it's called the Ukah Trust. Okay, yeah. And what
we do is we look after physically and mentally handicapped people. Okay, yes,
(10:24):
so that's part of it. Where now that she might
be able to answer this because we're zero rated, right.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I'm looking to buy a property.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I'm looking to buy a property to put them the
trust right. And we're talking quite a bit of money.
So the GSC content is I am concerned, capable, We're
going to do this. We're going to registered number a
GSC number, even though we're zero rated.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Okay, so it's a tax question for.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
A trust S curly one. But a lot of people
get caught. I got caught two years ago over the
same thing.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So there's a trust, there's a trust. Sorry, there's a
GSD component to something that you are spending money on.
But you are as a trust, your trust, the trust
is zero rated. So what happens here. I'm going to
hand this over to just sit tight there from a
Jeff Janet. Have you got a hot take on this?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Absolutely before we start? That is indeed, that doesnt need
fall into the tax sphere. And I do want to
make a very big disclosure so I come across tax
incidental to trust and the work that I do. There's
a lot of tax experts out there who I regularly
consult with with myself. Tax is notoriously difficult, and the
devil is most certainly in the legislative detail. So your
(11:40):
question is incredibly clearly you've got a charitable trust in
What I think you mean is that that's charity purposes
and I think so, I think that means it's registered
for charity for for under under Charitable Act, and you
know you're not paying tax on that. With regards to
being zero rated, when we talk about being zero rated,
(12:01):
I think you're talking about the vendor being registered for
g to the purchase of being wage to fill.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, there is a complication because I'm buying a property
and on that property it's two rental properties.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Okay, this is.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Ok okay, Jeff, Jeff, can I just ask is this
a transaction for many hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
We're talking millions?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Okay, So Jeff, this is this is this is outside
the remit for really what Janet's Janet can talk about.
And I would suggest that if it's a million for millions,
then you must surely have some advisors that you can
go and talk to accountants to deal with that. But
it's probably outside where Janet would be comfortable expressing.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Absolutely. Look, I cannot stress enough when it comes down
to tax to get the right advice from the right professional.
So don't go to anybody, Jeff, go to somebody that
truly understands tax.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, so good luck with that, Jeff, Sorry, we can't
help there. But actually I'm pleased that he gave us
a call. But it always does surprise me that I'm
wondering sometimes if people are seeking like a second opinion
because they have actually spoken to someone who's given them
the news he doesn't want to hear, and he's going,
hang on, here's a trust lady on here. I'm going
to actually have a chat with her to see if
(13:17):
I can really do have to pick.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
That's absolutely true, because you could put three tax experts
in them and they'd come up with thirty three opinions.
Because taxes, it is so circumstance dependent. And that is
why I always so you go to the right professional
to get the right advice.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Right, let's take some more calls. It's a twenty past
five news talks'd be my guest is if you have
missed it. She's Janet z Okoashi is Managing director of
New Zealand Family Trust Services. Trust to her thing and
she'll do her best to answer your questions if give
us a call. Right, let's go to Jeremy.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
Hello, Yeah, that's me and Janet and tim Hello, I
have a family trust. Part of the reason I had
a family trust was one I was self employed, which
left me at risk if my business failed. I believe too,
I think through broke up. And now my question is
I've got two questions. But my original question is I
(14:12):
work in management and I am deemed liable by work
Safe and at a point where there has been one
case recently in.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Auckland as a director of the company.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Yes, or he was the CEO of the company and
he's deemed liable. So I presume that I'm protected by
being more My property exigu is protected by being in
a trust. If I am deemed liable by someone like
WorkSafe and prosecuted, that'd be right.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Well, it does come down to a couple of factors.
So in the first instance, has the trust been bona
fidely set up and has it actually been run correctly?
And the reason why I say that is a lot
of people have trusts and they do absolutely no work whatsoever.
So a trust is similar, like I always like and
trust to insurance policies. When it comes down to asset protection,
(15:00):
the law says you get asset protection in relation to
a variety of actors for using trust but you've got
you've got to got to play by the rules. So
trustees have to actually uphold their duties under different pieces
of legislation, one of which is to hold annual trustee meetings.
This is a typical question of why I like to
(15:21):
have independent trustees aboard a trust. You don't have to
have an independent trustee by law, but good independent trustees
make sure that you're doing the right things so that
if push comes to shove and you end up with
a claim against you, you can turn to your trust
and you be sure that it's going to look after
you and the assets are going to be protected.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
And the other one is on currently gifting yearly. I
was advised not to get in on what's your opinion
on that?
Speaker 4 (15:53):
So that's that's probably heading to rest time subsidies. So
you might recall that that many years ago we would
set up trusts on the basis that you know, would
have no assets by the time we got to got
to the point of needing a rest home subsidy, and
therefore the government would kick in and they would actually
pay for our rest home care, which is I know
(16:14):
it's a very polarizing subject. Should we pay for our
own care or should the government pay. But in relation
to in relation to those subsidies, MSD MIST your Social
welfare will do three tests. They'll do a physical needs
test to see if you actually need long term care.
Then they'll do an asset assessment test how much assets
(16:36):
have you got? And then finally they're an income assessment test. Now,
when a trust is involved, they can actually, as talked
about before, look through a trust. But also they will
take into account in relation to a trust, what assets
got put into a trust, when they got put in,
how much was owed back to you, how much have
(16:57):
you done in gifting? When did you do the gifting.
Because there's a lot of rules around this and they
are very complicated those rules, which is why you do
need done. You do need to get certain tax advice.
So so in tax advice in relation to certain West
time subsidy claiming, so you are allowed to do some
gifting but lumps some wholesale gifting. We we've often not
(17:20):
recommended because we can see that it's going to take
our clients completely outside of the remit and they're never
going to never ever going to get a subsidy if
they do that. But then there are others where it
would be silly not to lump subgift because they're never
going to get the rest of time subsidy because the
assets sugg just worth. They've got too much value by
the only five less than five percent of thing goes
(17:41):
into rest times.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, well do you reckon, Jeremy? What does that sort
of that answer? Steering where you were going.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Probably gives me more questions though, might have to look
at that.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Well, actually, so the family trust you've got, what what
is the main purpose for you of having it? You
mentioned that the direct reliability, but are.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
You also if you get yes, sorry, originally it was
protection that you were not self under yeah, or had
I made you claim of some sort for some reason
and then a relationship break up, it was blocking the
claim on one of the business at that point and
to the house okay.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Oh hey, well I'm sorry we've given you more questions.
But I mean it's good that you've touched base and
you've you've got a sort of further pathway to make
some more inquiries, because sometimes I think that's one of
the faults I guess with people set up a trust
and they think, right, I've set up a trust. Job done,
let's go to play golf.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
I know, and then when you want to pull out
that surance policy, no work's been done whatsoever, and they
just throw it in the in the bottom jaw, and I.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Find what does that mean for a trust?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
If you don't, what it means is they've done no work.
And if we touch on that in relation to trusts
and accounting and tax, people will frequently get their tax
returns down. The financial statements for the trust need to
be done, and so they get all of those done
and then they just sign them off and they throw
them that in the bottom draw and say, oh, well,
I've done that now, and that's the end of it.
But that's not the end of it. They should be
(19:09):
having meetings. They certainly should be having meetings with their accountants,
by the way, but they should be having meetings with
their trustees. Those meetings should be documented. There's a variety
of things that need to be looked at. When we
hold our own your trusting meetings for our clients, we'll
look at thirty one points and we do that because
there's a whole lot of law around it.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Is that also just about making sure that somehow that
you haven't undermined the efficacy and the sanctity of the trust.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Absolutely there is. It's also that trustees are doing their jobs.
They've they've got mandatory duties, legal duties to take into
account under the trust that twenty nineteen, and they should
be doing that right.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
We're going to take more calls straight after this eight
hundred and eighty ten eight. If you've got any questions
around trust. I barely scratch the service on what questions
I've got, and I don't have any trusts that I'm
a beneficiary of, not that I know it. You never know.
You might never know, in fact, that it's another side
to the whole issue. But anyway, we're going to be
back with more calls and text. It is twenty six
past five. Talk said B News Talk said B. This
(20:07):
is smart money. My guest is Janet Zakaua. She's a
trust expert, and we're taking your calls.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Dale.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
Hello, Hi there, Hi, good afternoon. Hey Jana. I've just
got a super quick question. Trust are really conflict, aren't they.
I love it all and I'm trying to understand them,
but not very well. I don't think, just really quickly,
if there's an old trust that's been around for a while.
The original settlers dead, one of the trustees was passed
and it's a Satin sat and now suddenly there was
activity and one was a miner. Now as an adult,
(20:37):
is there an obligation that those said beneficiaries are informed
in a timely manner of changes to the trust.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Under the trust at twenty nineteen, there's there's there's two
sections there. I think it might be fifty three and
fifty four, and fifty three says you should you should
make disclosure on beneficiaries under the age of sixteen eighteen.
What I do is I make disclosure on the parents.
But there's also there's also a section which says that
(21:08):
providing certain factors are considered, you don't need to make disclosure.
But can't you can't carry that on forever and ever.
I think the time bar is a year. You've got
to make disclosure on one beneficial within a year. I
think the courts would probably take a bit of a
dim view that if you were making the disclosure on
the person who's the trustee as well as the beneficiary,
(21:30):
nobody got to know about the trust, and I think
that they might take a bit of a dim view
on that.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
But okay, so eighteen and above adult and so really
there should be full disclosure of changes, are afoot?
Speaker 7 (21:44):
Right?
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Absolutely? Yeah? And if it's a minor, as I say,
I make the disclosure to the parents of the of
the beneficiary.
Speaker 6 (21:53):
Yeah, this is eighteen, you see this person, so I'm
just eighteen. So really, maybe seek some legal advice.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, absolutely, you always want to get advice, and there
may be ways if you really don't want to make disclosure,
there may be ways around that providing certain factors and
procedures are followed. And that that is important because you know,
if say a fifteen year old knew that they were
going to end up with ten million, it might take
away their imputs to actually get a good education and
(22:22):
that sort of thing.
Speaker 6 (22:25):
Okay, so there isn't actually hard and fast, but yeah,
it should be fifty three and fifty four.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
I think it's fifty three and fifty four. There's a
buttable presumption that you should make disclosure, but it is
re buttable.
Speaker 6 (22:37):
Okay, ah, yeah, okay, cool, Hey, thank you so much?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Is Dale?
Speaker 6 (22:41):
Bye bye bye? Hey?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
What actually happens with trusts that haven't been particular? I mean,
if there is a death of a settler and the
trustees or something. What actually happens to a trust where suddenly,
through whatever reason, the trustees are no longer around. What
happens to.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
A trust, Well, it would I suppose ultimately it would
be administered by somebody. But but in regards to the trust,
you'd like to think that that, Well, now, we should
always have a memorial wishes on hand, which tells us
what to do with the assets. People should have wills
in place which passes the power of appointments, so there's
always going to be a trustee around. Those are all
(23:17):
the things that are covered off by a professional trustee annually?
Would it annually? We want to know that those documents
are in place so that we never end up in
that situation, because.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
I mean, there must be trusts where the sort of
ball's being dropped somewhere and people are beneficiaries of trust
they don't even.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Know exist, And undoubtedly there will be and you do
see those cases every now and again come to the courts,
but usually there's a lot of money involved, okay.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And the beneficiaries have brought it to court, have they
and say, a look of the trustees have gone.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah, the trustees haven't been doing their job or they
you know, they favored one beneficiary or another sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Okay, Kath wants to know what's an average ballpark figure
to set up a trust these days?
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Well, that's yeah, that's a big piece of strength, long
piece of strength, like a netting ball. I can I
can tell you what our average FEU is, but there
is a range out there with professionals. So if we're
going to sit down and set up a trust with somebody,
we're about two and a half thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Okay, Yeah, it is worth pointing out. And I will
make this point. And I don't know if I want
to name the organization, but there are some organizations that
will set up a trust for very little money, but
when the trust kicks in to be administered with our
wills is the classic example. I think it's the public
trust where they'll do you well for nothing, but they'll
(24:40):
make themselves executor and then that's when the fees kick in.
So you want to be wary of the free lunch.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And not only in that case there, but also when
the person dies and the will the wild then comes active.
You've got a management of an estate. So it's not
just at that point where the world starts. It's like
ongoing management of the estate where it really cost.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
I mean that's blur wells and trusts, isn't it. But
I mean it's just worth asking what the cost the
ongoing cost of administrative trusters as well.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Absolutely, so set up, we're around about the two and
a half thousand mark, and then you've got the ongoing
costs and we're about six hundred a year for being
an independent trustee. Now, if we've got to do extra
work on top of that, and I think it's really
important to disclose fees up front so that we're transparent
because being a trustee is you know, the word trust
(25:32):
at the beginning of trustee, So you want to build
a relationship with trust. So if we've got to do
additional work like buying and selling properties and businesses and
that sort of thing, we're charging on an hourly road.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Right, So yeah, we'd love more calls on this eight
hundred and eighty ten eight. We've got a few texts
we're going to get through now, though here's a few.
We set up our trust family trust. This person says
twenty three years ago after my mum had passed away
as she'd lost her state previously after a six month
marriage when my step father had an aneurysm and ended
up requiring full time care. Of course, there's a lot
(26:06):
in this text. Actually she was left with eleven thousand
in cash only because they were asset tested. We wanted
to protect our estates for our kids if this ever
happened to us. Is this still relevant?
Speaker 4 (26:18):
I think, tim they're going there with the risk turn
subsidies and we've found.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
We've set up after family trust twenty three hosand okay,
so they set up a family trust and we want
to protect Okay.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Basically I mean if we're making that a client to
her mother.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yes, so they want to protect their assets because if
they end up having to go into care, because we
should probably be more explicit about this that if you
go into care and you have assets, the cost of
that care could be a couple of thousand dollars a
week easy, and the government will make you pay that
two thousand dollars a week until there's almost nothing left.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Until there's a fasholt. So, as I said, there's a
physical needs test, and the next test is an asset test,
and a single person or both people in care. I
think the limit is two hundred and nine one thousand
that you're permitted to have with assets, or you might
be just one person needing care, and excluding the home
and the car, it's about one hundred and fifty nine,
(27:15):
although those figures do increase each year with CPS, So.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
If you have a house, it's down to one hundred
and fifty. If you don't have the house, it's down
to two hundred.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
And it depends if who's in care, it's both people
in care only one person in care. So remember it's
not just the house and the cars income as well
from investments.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
So I think the answer to this text is, yes,
it is still relevant. Yes it is still set up
a trust to protect it for the rest time subsidies. Yes,
the trust is still relevant.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
It's still relevant, and you should get care, you should
get advice, and it's important to look back on those
trust documents and see when the assets were moved in,
how much gifting has been done. To do a notional
asset and income assessment yourself or with your professional and
to see where that actually, you know put you.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Okay, we got to take a break. Lots of callers
lining up to have a chat with Janet Zakashi's managing
director of New Zealand Family Trust Services eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty back in the mow. Yes, the news talks,
that'd be and with Janet Zaka we're talking trusts. Taking
your calls and Bill, Hello.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Hi, how's there going good?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Thanks?
Speaker 7 (28:29):
I have a quick question for Jennis. I'm a beneficiary
of a discretionary family trust. The trustees have decided that
the remaining funds in the family trust they're going to
go to a new charitable trust. Is that a standard
sort of a maneuver?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Bill? That's impossible to answer because I don't know the
rules of the trusteed. I don't know what the memory
and wishes said, what the settler actually wanted, so that
that would be really difficult to answer that question. You'd
have to know, you'd have to know a lot of
those things. Are those circumstances because you're really saying our
trustees acting reasonably in doing that. That's the question, isn't it?
Speaker 7 (29:13):
It is? And there are no written wishes, no on
that person who's just who's now available? The settler says no.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Well, if the if the settler's been around and that
and people of the professionals have done their job. There'll
be a memory and wishes sitting around somewhere and those wishes.
Oh really all right? Okay, well, and that in that case,
it's going to come down to just circumstances and facts
that can or cannot be proven. So I don't know
(29:45):
why they're giving forty percent of the trust fund to charity,
but there may well be reasons.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
That does sound peculiar. So so are you a beneficiary
of the trust bill? Yes, And so the trustee is
just going to give away some money to a charitable trust.
But they're going to give some to charity.
Speaker 7 (30:05):
Oh yeah, it gets quite complicated. We don't know who
the charities are. They're going to set up a new
charitable trust. They're going to dissolve the current family trust,
set up a separate family trust with the remaining sixty
percent that will never go to charities.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
So it sounds like you know quite a lot about
this film. Have you taken an advice from a lawyer
who's looking into it for you?
Speaker 7 (30:27):
Yes, we have, and it's it's quite interesting and it'll
be an interesting interesting and interesting words. Sounds like it's
going to I suppose yes it is. There isn't a hell,
There isn't a heck of a lot of other things
we can do. I mean, you get to a certain
point where.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
What's what's motivating what's motivating the trustees to make these decisions.
Speaker 7 (30:51):
Probably it's we're not entirely sure. We're not entirely sure.
To be honest, we've got a suspessions, but it's not
necessarily an afarious is.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
A professional, independent, independent trustee sitting.
Speaker 7 (31:05):
That there are two one a lawyer, one on an accountant, Well, I.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Definitely, yeah, I would. I definitely want to get advice.
So I just all I can say is get advice.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Are you privy to the terms of the trust?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (31:21):
I know the deed of the trust. All the beneficiaries do.
And there is a line in there, last line of
the potential people in the of discretion that says yes, charities.
So we've had and most of the time, and correct
me if I'm wrong. Is that when there's a left
over a mount in a trust that's an economical or
(31:44):
quite small, then charities can ah.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
So you reckon in significant amount. And as opposed to
the trustees who are going well we're going to get
forty percent to a charitable trust.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
I've never known trustees, even for insigments, amounts to just
say well, I'll pick a trust, a charitable trust, and
I'll just put it over there when there's beneficiaries around.
So and if you've got a lawyer and an accountant
who's sitting there as the trustees, those are those are
professional people bound by professional bodies. So we're very unusual
(32:16):
decision for them both to wake up in the morning
and think, yeah, let's do this now. So that's why
I say get advice. There'll be document There'll be some
documentation around that. Lawyers can look at.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
How much work are we talking about a significant amount
of money here? Bill?
Speaker 7 (32:32):
It depends if you're in on mask, no, but if
you are sitting in the bar, I won't. I won't
exactly say how much it is. But it's that involves
a farm. Okay, right, okay, a chunk of a farm.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
That is, So do the can I do the lawyer
and the accountant sort of know each other? Is there
any connection? Are they sort of part of the same
zer a professional Yep? So they're not they're not too
They're not independent in terms of being unknown to each other,
they are well acquainted with each other.
Speaker 7 (33:03):
Oh yeah, they've been. They've been there being professionally for
years for one of the upper the original people that
set up the trust.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
And they given any explanation as to why they're spending
this money on a charitable trust.
Speaker 7 (33:16):
They believe that the verbal wishes of the now deceased
person who's who who had the family trust in their name?
Speaker 4 (33:26):
Okay, and I know you said there wasn't a memory
and wishes, but those professionals may have other papers to hand,
so and they.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
Are, you know, trying to find out.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Yeah. And you know that's why I say I get
advice because it sounds to me like there's an awful
lot more to it than just two professionals waking up
and deciding, willing lily what they want to do that
accountants and lawyers don't do that.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Oh well, that's no.
Speaker 7 (33:47):
And to and to be fair, there is another family
member who's a trustee, who's who's very kicking on this idea.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
So ah, okay, yeah, So unfortunately.
Speaker 7 (33:57):
It's a name, you've got an emotional.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Yeah, and unfortunately it's going to get messy.
Speaker 6 (34:01):
Yeah, good luck with that Okay, that's one way to
put it.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yep, thanks Bill. Wow, that's a lot to unpack, isn't it?
Are there sometimes? Is there a chance that Bill might
not be privy to some of the documents and things
that have and if he's going to find that, well,
I would have thought that the trustees would if they're
going to have to go to court, if it's going
(34:26):
to get it lititious, you'd think if they had other
information that Bill should know about as to why they're
acting this way, they should be like, hey, lock Bill
before you go to court. Here's this letter from the settler.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Saying possibly, but it is. But there will be a
process of discovery, so a lot of information will will
come out.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
How much discretion do trustees have? And I'm just as
a ballpark guess on without the specific case, but.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
Well, if it's a discretionary family trust, remember beneficiaries under
discretional family trust are only entitled to be considered. They're
not entitled of receiving any asset or any benefit from
the trust, absolutely, which is quite different from a fixed trust,
where you beneficiaries trustees do have discretion, but the discretion
has got to be you know, you've got to exercise
(35:11):
your discretion reasonable. So they couldn't just take a farm
and say I think that we'll give forty percent to SBCA.
You know, there's got to be something around that when
they've got other beneficiaries sitting there. I'm sure that if
that went to court, the courts would want to know
what that back their reasons documentation. Have they got that
(35:33):
sort of thing?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Well, it sounds like a fascinating case for litigation, but
not that litigation is fun for anyone. We're going to
take a quick moment. We'll come back with with Janet
Zukashi's managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services, and
it's twelve minutes to see gosh, time is flying at
nine minutes to six, So John, Hello, Hi, this.
Speaker 8 (35:55):
Is a quick question, and it's an observation after the fact.
We've had a long standing trust because we had a
business earlier in our life and we no longer have it.
Around twenty nineteen, our legal our lawyer who was a
professional trustee on our trust passed away and we realized
pretty quickly how much we've relied upon him for vice
guidance without kind of understanding it ourselves. His practice went
(36:20):
to a new law firm, and they raised some alarm bells,
so we have a complicated them with one of a
better term. My wife has children from previous marriage and
they were part of our will, but not total will.
So I guess my christian is to clarify because I'm
feeling a little bit naked not having a trust now,
if I'm being honest, because I've had that most of
most of my life. But the advice we got given
(36:42):
was our will would be overridden by the trust, including
all of the descendants of my wife woman who person marriage.
That would have an impact on what might happen to
anything that was involved in the trust. In our estates
is that a correct process for.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
A will is overriding a trust that's been around for.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Years ti years.
Speaker 8 (37:03):
No, the trust, the trust would override the will.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Whatever the will.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Well, the trust has some assets and your will has others.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
They're really they're really quite different. I mean, will deals
with your personal states. So they're the assets that aren't
in the trust. If you want to look.
Speaker 8 (37:19):
At all of the assets, we're in the trust.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Ah, okay, so you don't really have many assets to
bequeath most of your most of the assets are in
the trust.
Speaker 8 (37:29):
They included properties, and so we dissolved the trust on
the rest that if we didn't in all of the
descendants in my side would have an ability to challenge
the will.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
So so you've dissolved the trust and the money is
back with the assets are back with.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
You, So they're falling to your personal states. So you
would deal with that under your wills.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yes, I don't know how the trust when it's dissolved
can still be in play, Janet, That's not That's what John.
Speaker 8 (38:00):
But I guess what I'm saying was it got given
that our will was that because the trust would challenge
the will?
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (38:09):
I think are you trying to say? Are you trying
to say that all the beneficiaries would come forth and
the trust and say, you know, I'm expecting to get
something here.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Is this when the trust was at Was this when
the trust was active? Yes, okay, I mean.
Speaker 8 (38:25):
Without the trust now, So that's what And I realized
how much I relied on our official trust that you
passed away. And then the advice that we've got, and
we acted quite quickly because it's when the trust laws changed. Yes,
we had a window to kind of do something that's
what we got told. Yeah, I guess it's just some
advice for others to the class of the wishes of
your will. But if you have a trust, the class
(38:47):
between the trust deeds and the people that are in
time to that trust. Because we had very different ideas
about what's happening to all of our stuff and our
will to what actually could happen through the trust.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I think there's a misunderstanding here, isn't it that if
there are assets in the trust, those assets are in
the trust. And if there are assets that are not
in the trust that are yours, John, they're yours.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Their personal assets and they dealt with the will.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
So I think there's a blariness that when people feel that, Okay,
this is in a trust, well, if it's in the trust,
it's in the trust.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
And they kind of think that that, oh, yes, it's
a trust, but it's they're my assets. And that's where
that's where people come unstuck, because then they go ahead
and they start doing things with those trust assets and
they're leaving out the rest of the trustees with making
proper decisions.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
And then we're not giving specific advice here, John, But
I it sounds like if he's dissolved the trust, then
the assets are now with people, and if it's with you,
you can do.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
With I would think they could do what they.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Generally what you want assets subject to the law about
trying to cut people out of wills who think they've
got to claim on your will, and that.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Could blur the waters to testamentially, well, that's one of
the reasons actually why people set up a trust. I
was going to s they get around they get around
the Family Protection Act. Well they don't get around it,
but it certainly gives them a bit of protection against
claims on the Family Protection Act and the and you know,
the Testamentary Promises Act, that sort of thing. They take
(40:22):
it out of their personal possession.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
And by the way, I probably was, I mean, we
do have the trust expert here, and I was sort
of giving my own opinion on that, but I was
reasonably confident. You know, it's my b plus and equity
that I got back in university back in the day.
Speaker 6 (40:36):
But it is.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
But that was the thing I learned from our previous
chat is that people have a casual latitude towards trusts
and they sort of think that the money is still there,
whereas no, No, it isn't a trust, so don't.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Forget and consult with all the trustees rather than just
expect it to be a favor of complete gosh.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Times up, Thanks Janet. We could have we could have
talked about. We still haven't said who needs a trust?
We'll left to ask that next time. And do I
need a trust? Who do you need to trust? Does
anyone need to trust? And when should you consider it?
We'll do that next time, shall we? Excellent, We'll get
onto that. It was the first question I answered and
asked I never answered anyway. Thanks my producer, Ty Award.
Go and check out the podcast on News Talk Seed
(41:19):
B or on iHeartRadio, and we'll look forward to your
company next weekend Sunday at six. As next enjoy the
rest of your evening. Catch your saying.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
For more from the Weekend collective. Listen live to News
Talk Said B weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
b M.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Seven Nation.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hold taking that bad I'm talking and welcome back to
the Weekend Collective. I'm Tim Beverage. And by the way,
I should have mentioned this is the previous hour, But
(00:42):
do you know that you can we can get the
podcast to just go and check out News Talks Beat
Up Curtains. But you're not going to do that now
because you're going to stick around for smart Money because
we're going to have a chat about trusts and it's
something we've we've talked about before. And my guest, who
I'm about to introduce, is we have a busy hour,
so if you've got any questions on trusts, then jump
(01:05):
on the blower and give us a call. But it's
funny that it's one of those things with trusts that
often people don't really think about them until they think
they need it. And I have just a rough rule
of thumb, which is based on nothing more than just
my own crude reckon on things that by the time
you think you need a trust, it's probably too late.
(01:25):
You should really think about having a trust before you
think about having a trust. It's a little bit chicken
and egg because by the time you think, jeepest we
really needed to set up a trust to protect our assets, well,
probably it's going to be too late anyway. So we're
going to have a chat about trusts on the you know,
on the political side of political aisle, one side seems
to have a good list of reasons as to why
(01:46):
someone would need a trust, while the other side seems
to be convinced that essentially the only reason anyone would
ever have a trust is to hide their assets, and
cynically speaking, that does seem like a common reason while
people have trust. There are other legitimate reasons as well.
When you want to protect my assets for your kids,
(02:07):
or there's split up a relationship. I'm making things up
as a go along. But what is the real purpose
of a trust and what's the difference between using one
legitimately and trying it on with I don't know any
government agency that wants to get it and get their
hands on your cash. So when should you have a trust?
Who should have it? What's legit what's illegitimate use of
a trust? All of those questions are going to be
(02:29):
addressed hopefully by she is the managing director for New
Zealand Family Trust Services. And her name is Janet Zuccoa.
Interesting spelling of Zukoa, by the way, just if you're
looking her up online x Uccoa. And she's with us
for smart Money. Janet, Hello, how are you hello?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
How are you doing? Tim?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I'm all right? Actually funny enough. You just the connection
of the way the world goes around. Of course you
know Greg Pain because you know how good Greek Pain
is a biomechanist.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
He is phenomenal. I had quite a bad accident in
December last year and I had had five people on
the team, had the tax, the access people helping me
just about every day, and Greg Pain was one of
those five. He is so worthwhile going to.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Such a nice chap, isn't he to love? Greg? Hey? Anyway,
he's probably listening on the way home, so you'll be
feeling the love the ego Greg, Now, what is I
reckon that? I'm not sure if we dug into this
too much. We have had some broad conversations around trusts
and people calling up why what is the most common
reason people get a trust?
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Well, there's a few reasons, but probably the most common
reason is to protect assets, and that is assets in
relation to business and professional and professional reasons. You've also
got situations now where where you've got assets of special
significance like batchers and farms and those sorts of assets
(03:55):
that people want to pass on, so it's asset transference.
Then we've got personal relationships. I think about a third
of New Zealanders go through second and third relationships.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
That is actually, to me, that is a really legitimate
reason for a trusters. You've got kids from previous relationships
and you're heading into another, you fall in love again,
and you don't want to have that split in half.
So that to me is a legitimate way of.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
You don't want to end up like the GST client,
right with fifteen percent of your overall wealth left, right
after you've done two or three relationships.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So ah, that's right. I'm now remember that because you
call them your GST clients, they finally come to you
for some advice when they've got fifteen percent of what
they have.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Their original wealth. So when people do get rid of
a second or third relationship, and everybody's entitled to a
futurey out, yeah yeah exactly. So when they get into
those relationships, they are mostly very happy to share going forward,
but they do want to protect what they bring to
the relationship for their children should anything unto what happen.
(04:56):
And you do find that as those relationships mature, that
often that goes by the bye. But what I say
is trust in that late and that's a circumstance is
not enough. You do have to have a property relationship
agreement as well. That's that's important to have to have both.
I think the other reasons why people people take on
(05:17):
trust is to protect vulnerable dependence. I mean, you may
have that you that you really got to got to
look after. And of course it's to manage tax efficiently.
And a lot of people think there's no tax benefits
whatsoever to trust, but that's not because.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Sometimes people do set them up because they think, if
you know, if business goes bung, I want to have
something saved in a trust that the official and you
can't get you can't get are those are those more
frequently looked through? Those sorts of trusts or trust.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Can can indeed be looked through.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
So by the way you should explain what looked through me.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Yeah, So that means in looking through them, they just
almost disregard them. And so that really that might possibly
fall into an illegitimate use of a trust for want
of a better word, that there's a trust set up
for forguenent purposes, or trust to proceed to conceal proceeds
of crime, or trust that interfere with people's property rights,
(06:18):
or the last one, as you mentioned, is to defeat creditors.
So if you try to transfer your home one month
before your business is going to go into receivership, then
I'm water feeling the official assum I was going to
have something to say about that.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Actually, by the way, before we take our calls and
get into this, I think we should actually take the
moment to explain what a trust is. Because you hear
the words so often it's a trust this and trust that.
But a trust is essentially it's it's like a different
It's a separate person, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Yeah, it's a judiciary relationship. And so.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
If you set up a trust, what have you created?
Speaker 4 (06:54):
What you created a relationship between trustees and beneficiary. So
the settler is the person that sets it up, and
the trustees are the people that run it. And sometimes
settlers our trustees is the.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Trust itself like a separate person. It's like a separate impact.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Yes, we call it a use and it's not really
an entity because at law trust wially exist. At law.
It's definitely a relationship. It's not like a company, so.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Something is held in trust. So there's not x y
Z Trust is an entity like x y Z Limited
is an entity.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
No, and don't. We don't have a register of trust
yet in New Zealand. We may one day. And that's
not to say that that we shouldn't have Again, that's
that's a political potato. That's a very hot potato. Some
countries do have lists of trusts.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
That's actually quite an interesting question because if you are
someone who doesn't like trusts and you want to know,
so you might be doing business with someone, it would
it be relevant to you to know that they've got
a lot of their wealth set up in a trust,
and that would be an argument for register. This is
not what we're going to be.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely it would. And frequently you do find
that when people are heading into litigation, they're sniffing around
for for the other side's assets and what are they
or absolutely legitimately, on a regular basis, especially on a
hot property market, I will get calls and emails where
somebody has looked at a certificate title to a property
(08:24):
and they've seen that there's a professional trustee like me
sitting there, and they're going up and said, look, we're
really interested in buying that property. You know, we think
that this is your client, and of course I can't
confirm or deny that that's my client. So I simply say, oh,
what would you what would you want? And they said, well,
we really want to talk to them because we want
to buy and so.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
And you can't. You have to pretend you don't know
an that.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Well, what I say is I can't confirm or deny,
but give me your details.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I guess if they're not a client either, he'd have
to say the same thing. Yes, absolutely, yeah I can't.
Well what'd you say? I can't or confirm or give
me your details, but it'll be a waste of time.
Sorry anyway, Okay, Look, if you've got any questions on
trusts and whether you should because lots of questions I've
(09:10):
got for Janet as well, but we'd love love you
to take the opportunity to talk to Janet. She is
managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services Trust so
her thing. If you've got any questions around it about
whether you should be getting a trust, if you're dealing
with people who are trustees, anything around trust, then give
us a call eight hundred eighty ten eighty text nine
(09:31):
to nine two. And before I get on to any
more of my questions, of which I've got quite a few,
let's go to Jeff Gooday, Hello, Jeff, you're on.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
A good mate. How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Good? Thanks?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
How are you even a bit of a battle here
of the trailer?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Okay, okay, you're right on the radio. Let's go thank you?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Is it Tim?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, good morning, I mean good afternoon. How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I'm good you're with Janet? Who's that trust expert in me?
Speaker 5 (10:01):
So?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
What what? What question have you got?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
What I've got? I've got a quest I've set up
for trust. I've set up for trust for a charity, right, yeah,
and it's called the Ukah Trust. Okay, yeah. And what
we do is we look after physically and mentally handicapped people. Okay, yes,
(10:24):
so that's part of it. Where now that she might
be able to answer this because we're zero rated, right.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I'm looking to buy a property.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I'm looking to buy a property to put them the
trust right. And we're talking quite a bit of money.
So the GSC content is I am concerned, capable, We're
going to do this. We're going to registered number a
GSC number, even though we're zero rated.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Okay, so it's a tax question for.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
A trust S curly one. But a lot of people
get caught. I got caught two years ago over the
same thing.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So there's a trust, there's a trust. Sorry, there's a
GSD component to something that you are spending money on.
But you are as a trust, your trust, the trust
is zero rated. So what happens here. I'm going to
hand this over to just sit tight there from a
Jeff Janet. Have you got a hot take on this?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Absolutely before we start? That is indeed, that doesnt need
fall into the tax sphere. And I do want to
make a very big disclosure so I come across tax
incidental to trust and the work that I do. There's
a lot of tax experts out there who I regularly
consult with with myself. Tax is notoriously difficult, and the
devil is most certainly in the legislative detail. So your
(11:40):
question is incredibly clearly you've got a charitable trust in
What I think you mean is that that's charity purposes
and I think so, I think that means it's registered
for charity for for under under Charitable Act, and you
know you're not paying tax on that. With regards to
being zero rated, when we talk about being zero rated,
(12:01):
I think you're talking about the vendor being registered for
g to the purchase of being wage to fill.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, there is a complication because I'm buying a property
and on that property it's two rental properties.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Okay, this is.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Ok okay, Jeff, Jeff, can I just ask is this
a transaction for many hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
We're talking millions?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Okay, So Jeff, this is this is this is outside
the remit for really what Janet's Janet can talk about.
And I would suggest that if it's a million for millions,
then you must surely have some advisors that you can
go and talk to accountants to deal with that. But
it's probably outside where Janet would be comfortable expressing.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Absolutely. Look, I cannot stress enough when it comes down
to tax to get the right advice from the right professional.
So don't go to anybody, Jeff, go to somebody that
truly understands tax.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, so good luck with that, Jeff, Sorry, we can't
help there. But actually I'm pleased that he gave us
a call. But it always does surprise me that I'm
wondering sometimes if people are seeking like a second opinion
because they have actually spoken to someone who's given them
the news he doesn't want to hear, and he's going,
hang on, here's a trust lady on here. I'm going
to actually have a chat with her to see if
(13:17):
I can really do have to pick.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
That's absolutely true, because you could put three tax experts
in them and they'd come up with thirty three opinions.
Because taxes, it is so circumstance dependent. And that is
why I always so you go to the right professional
to get the right advice.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Right, let's take some more calls. It's a twenty past
five news talks'd be my guest is if you have
missed it. She's Janet z Okoashi is Managing director of
New Zealand Family Trust Services. Trust to her thing and
she'll do her best to answer your questions if give
us a call. Right, let's go to Jeremy.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
Hello, Yeah, that's me and Janet and tim Hello, I
have a family trust. Part of the reason I had
a family trust was one I was self employed, which
left me at risk if my business failed. I believe too,
I think through broke up. And now my question is
I've got two questions. But my original question is I
(14:12):
work in management and I am deemed liable by work
Safe and at a point where there has been one
case recently in.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Auckland as a director of the company.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Yes, or he was the CEO of the company and
he's deemed liable. So I presume that I'm protected by
being more My property exigu is protected by being in
a trust. If I am deemed liable by someone like
WorkSafe and prosecuted, that'd be right.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Well, it does come down to a couple of factors.
So in the first instance, has the trust been bona
fidely set up and has it actually been run correctly?
And the reason why I say that is a lot
of people have trusts and they do absolutely no work whatsoever.
So a trust is similar, like I always like and
trust to insurance policies. When it comes down to asset protection,
(15:00):
the law says you get asset protection in relation to
a variety of actors for using trust but you've got
you've got to got to play by the rules. So
trustees have to actually uphold their duties under different pieces
of legislation, one of which is to hold annual trustee meetings.
This is a typical question of why I like to
(15:21):
have independent trustees aboard a trust. You don't have to
have an independent trustee by law, but good independent trustees
make sure that you're doing the right things so that
if push comes to shove and you end up with
a claim against you, you can turn to your trust
and you be sure that it's going to look after
you and the assets are going to be protected.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
And the other one is on currently gifting yearly. I
was advised not to get in on what's your opinion
on that?
Speaker 4 (15:53):
So that's that's probably heading to rest time subsidies. So
you might recall that that many years ago we would
set up trusts on the basis that you know, would
have no assets by the time we got to got
to the point of needing a rest home subsidy, and
therefore the government would kick in and they would actually
pay for our rest home care, which is I know
(16:14):
it's a very polarizing subject. Should we pay for our
own care or should the government pay. But in relation
to in relation to those subsidies, MSD MIST your Social
welfare will do three tests. They'll do a physical needs
test to see if you actually need long term care.
Then they'll do an asset assessment test how much assets
(16:36):
have you got? And then finally they're an income assessment test. Now,
when a trust is involved, they can actually, as talked
about before, look through a trust. But also they will
take into account in relation to a trust, what assets
got put into a trust, when they got put in,
how much was owed back to you, how much have
(16:57):
you done in gifting? When did you do the gifting.
Because there's a lot of rules around this and they
are very complicated those rules, which is why you do
need done. You do need to get certain tax advice.
So so in tax advice in relation to certain West
time subsidy claiming, so you are allowed to do some
gifting but lumps some wholesale gifting. We we've often not
(17:20):
recommended because we can see that it's going to take
our clients completely outside of the remit and they're never
going to never ever going to get a subsidy if
they do that. But then there are others where it
would be silly not to lump subgift because they're never
going to get the rest of time subsidy because the
assets sugg just worth. They've got too much value by
the only five less than five percent of thing goes
(17:41):
into rest times.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, well do you reckon, Jeremy? What does that sort
of that answer? Steering where you were going.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Probably gives me more questions though, might have to look
at that.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Well, actually, so the family trust you've got, what what
is the main purpose for you of having it? You
mentioned that the direct reliability, but are.
Speaker 5 (18:02):
You also if you get yes, sorry, originally it was
protection that you were not self under yeah, or had
I made you claim of some sort for some reason
and then a relationship break up, it was blocking the
claim on one of the business at that point and
to the house okay.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Oh hey, well I'm sorry we've given you more questions.
But I mean it's good that you've touched base and
you've you've got a sort of further pathway to make
some more inquiries, because sometimes I think that's one of
the faults I guess with people set up a trust
and they think, right, I've set up a trust. Job done,
let's go to play golf.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
I know, and then when you want to pull out
that surance policy, no work's been done whatsoever, and they
just throw it in the in the bottom jaw, and I.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Find what does that mean for a trust?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
If you don't, what it means is they've done no work.
And if we touch on that in relation to trusts
and accounting and tax, people will frequently get their tax
returns down. The financial statements for the trust need to
be done, and so they get all of those done
and then they just sign them off and they throw
them that in the bottom draw and say, oh, well,
I've done that now, and that's the end of it.
But that's not the end of it. They should be
(19:09):
having meetings. They certainly should be having meetings with their accountants,
by the way, but they should be having meetings with
their trustees. Those meetings should be documented. There's a variety
of things that need to be looked at. When we
hold our own your trusting meetings for our clients, we'll
look at thirty one points and we do that because
there's a whole lot of law around it.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Is that also just about making sure that somehow that
you haven't undermined the efficacy and the sanctity of the trust.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Absolutely there is. It's also that trustees are doing their jobs.
They've they've got mandatory duties, legal duties to take into
account under the trust that twenty nineteen, and they should
be doing that right.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
We're going to take more calls straight after this eight
hundred and eighty ten eight. If you've got any questions
around trust. I barely scratch the service on what questions
I've got, and I don't have any trusts that I'm
a beneficiary of, not that I know it. You never know.
You might never know, in fact, that it's another side
to the whole issue. But anyway, we're going to be
back with more calls and text. It is twenty six
past five. Talk said B News Talk said B. This
(20:07):
is smart money. My guest is Janet Zakaua. She's a
trust expert, and we're taking your calls.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Dale.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
Hello, Hi there, Hi, good afternoon. Hey Jana. I've just
got a super quick question. Trust are really conflict, aren't they.
I love it all and I'm trying to understand them,
but not very well. I don't think, just really quickly,
if there's an old trust that's been around for a while.
The original settlers dead, one of the trustees was passed
and it's a Satin sat and now suddenly there was
activity and one was a miner. Now as an adult,
(20:37):
is there an obligation that those said beneficiaries are informed
in a timely manner of changes to the trust.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Under the trust at twenty nineteen, there's there's there's two
sections there. I think it might be fifty three and
fifty four, and fifty three says you should you should
make disclosure on beneficiaries under the age of sixteen eighteen.
What I do is I make disclosure on the parents.
But there's also there's also a section which says that
(21:08):
providing certain factors are considered, you don't need to make disclosure.
But can't you can't carry that on forever and ever.
I think the time bar is a year. You've got
to make disclosure on one beneficial within a year. I
think the courts would probably take a bit of a
dim view that if you were making the disclosure on
the person who's the trustee as well as the beneficiary,
(21:30):
nobody got to know about the trust, and I think
that they might take a bit of a dim view
on that.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
But okay, so eighteen and above adult and so really
there should be full disclosure of changes, are afoot?
Speaker 7 (21:44):
Right?
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Absolutely? Yeah? And if it's a minor, as I say,
I make the disclosure to the parents of the of
the beneficiary.
Speaker 6 (21:53):
Yeah, this is eighteen, you see this person, so I'm
just eighteen. So really, maybe seek some legal advice.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, absolutely, you always want to get advice, and there
may be ways if you really don't want to make disclosure,
there may be ways around that providing certain factors and
procedures are followed. And that that is important because you know,
if say a fifteen year old knew that they were
going to end up with ten million, it might take
away their imputs to actually get a good education and
(22:22):
that sort of thing.
Speaker 6 (22:25):
Okay, so there isn't actually hard and fast, but yeah,
it should be fifty three and fifty four.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
I think it's fifty three and fifty four. There's a
buttable presumption that you should make disclosure, but it is
re buttable.
Speaker 6 (22:37):
Okay, ah, yeah, okay, cool, Hey, thank you so much?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Is Dale?
Speaker 6 (22:41):
Bye bye bye? Hey?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
What actually happens with trusts that haven't been particular? I mean,
if there is a death of a settler and the
trustees or something. What actually happens to a trust where suddenly,
through whatever reason, the trustees are no longer around. What
happens to.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
A trust, Well, it would I suppose ultimately it would
be administered by somebody. But but in regards to the trust,
you'd like to think that that, Well, now, we should
always have a memorial wishes on hand, which tells us
what to do with the assets. People should have wills
in place which passes the power of appointments, so there's
always going to be a trustee around. Those are all
(23:17):
the things that are covered off by a professional trustee annually?
Would it annually? We want to know that those documents
are in place so that we never end up in
that situation, because.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
I mean, there must be trusts where the sort of
ball's being dropped somewhere and people are beneficiaries of trust
they don't even.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Know exist, And undoubtedly there will be and you do
see those cases every now and again come to the courts,
but usually there's a lot of money involved, okay.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And the beneficiaries have brought it to court, have they
and say, a look of the trustees have gone.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah, the trustees haven't been doing their job or they
you know, they favored one beneficiary or another sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Okay, Kath wants to know what's an average ballpark figure
to set up a trust these days?
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Well, that's yeah, that's a big piece of strength, long
piece of strength, like a netting ball. I can I
can tell you what our average FEU is, but there
is a range out there with professionals. So if we're
going to sit down and set up a trust with somebody,
we're about two and a half thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Okay, Yeah, it is worth pointing out. And I will
make this point. And I don't know if I want
to name the organization, but there are some organizations that
will set up a trust for very little money, but
when the trust kicks in to be administered with our
wills is the classic example. I think it's the public
trust where they'll do you well for nothing, but they'll
(24:40):
make themselves executor and then that's when the fees kick in.
So you want to be wary of the free lunch.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And not only in that case there, but also when
the person dies and the will the wild then comes active.
You've got a management of an estate. So it's not
just at that point where the world starts. It's like
ongoing management of the estate where it really cost.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
I mean that's blur wells and trusts, isn't it. But
I mean it's just worth asking what the cost the
ongoing cost of administrative trusters as well.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Absolutely, so set up, we're around about the two and
a half thousand mark, and then you've got the ongoing
costs and we're about six hundred a year for being
an independent trustee. Now, if we've got to do extra
work on top of that, and I think it's really
important to disclose fees up front so that we're transparent
because being a trustee is you know, the word trust
(25:32):
at the beginning of trustee, So you want to build
a relationship with trust. So if we've got to do
additional work like buying and selling properties and businesses and
that sort of thing, we're charging on an hourly road.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Right, So yeah, we'd love more calls on this eight
hundred and eighty ten eight. We've got a few texts
we're going to get through now, though here's a few.
We set up our trust family trust. This person says
twenty three years ago after my mum had passed away
as she'd lost her state previously after a six month
marriage when my step father had an aneurysm and ended
up requiring full time care. Of course, there's a lot
(26:06):
in this text. Actually she was left with eleven thousand
in cash only because they were asset tested. We wanted
to protect our estates for our kids if this ever
happened to us. Is this still relevant?
Speaker 4 (26:18):
I think, tim they're going there with the risk turn
subsidies and we've found.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
We've set up after family trust twenty three hosand okay,
so they set up a family trust and we want
to protect Okay.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Basically I mean if we're making that a client to
her mother.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yes, so they want to protect their assets because if
they end up having to go into care, because we
should probably be more explicit about this that if you
go into care and you have assets, the cost of
that care could be a couple of thousand dollars a
week easy, and the government will make you pay that
two thousand dollars a week until there's almost nothing left.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Until there's a fasholt. So, as I said, there's a
physical needs test, and the next test is an asset test,
and a single person or both people in care. I
think the limit is two hundred and nine one thousand
that you're permitted to have with assets, or you might
be just one person needing care, and excluding the home
and the car, it's about one hundred and fifty nine,
(27:15):
although those figures do increase each year with CPS, So.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
If you have a house, it's down to one hundred
and fifty. If you don't have the house, it's down
to two hundred.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
And it depends if who's in care, it's both people
in care only one person in care. So remember it's
not just the house and the cars income as well
from investments.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
So I think the answer to this text is, yes,
it is still relevant. Yes it is still set up
a trust to protect it for the rest time subsidies. Yes,
the trust is still relevant.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
It's still relevant, and you should get care, you should
get advice, and it's important to look back on those
trust documents and see when the assets were moved in,
how much gifting has been done. To do a notional
asset and income assessment yourself or with your professional and
to see where that actually, you know put you.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Okay, we got to take a break. Lots of callers
lining up to have a chat with Janet Zakashi's managing
director of New Zealand Family Trust Services eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty back in the mow. Yes, the news talks,
that'd be and with Janet Zaka we're talking trusts. Taking
your calls and Bill, Hello.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Hi, how's there going good?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Thanks?
Speaker 7 (28:29):
I have a quick question for Jennis. I'm a beneficiary
of a discretionary family trust. The trustees have decided that
the remaining funds in the family trust they're going to
go to a new charitable trust. Is that a standard
sort of a maneuver?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Bill? That's impossible to answer because I don't know the
rules of the trusteed. I don't know what the memory
and wishes said, what the settler actually wanted, so that
that would be really difficult to answer that question. You'd
have to know, you'd have to know a lot of
those things. Are those circumstances because you're really saying our
trustees acting reasonably in doing that. That's the question, isn't it?
Speaker 7 (29:13):
It is? And there are no written wishes, no on
that person who's just who's now available? The settler says no.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Well, if the if the settler's been around and that
and people of the professionals have done their job. There'll
be a memory and wishes sitting around somewhere and those wishes.
Oh really all right? Okay, well, and that in that case,
it's going to come down to just circumstances and facts
that can or cannot be proven. So I don't know
(29:45):
why they're giving forty percent of the trust fund to charity,
but there may well be reasons.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
That does sound peculiar. So so are you a beneficiary
of the trust bill? Yes, And so the trustee is
just going to give away some money to a charitable trust.
But they're going to give some to charity.
Speaker 7 (30:05):
Oh yeah, it gets quite complicated. We don't know who
the charities are. They're going to set up a new
charitable trust. They're going to dissolve the current family trust,
set up a separate family trust with the remaining sixty
percent that will never go to charities.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
So it sounds like you know quite a lot about
this film. Have you taken an advice from a lawyer
who's looking into it for you?
Speaker 7 (30:27):
Yes, we have, and it's it's quite interesting and it'll
be an interesting interesting and interesting words. Sounds like it's
going to I suppose yes it is. There isn't a hell,
There isn't a heck of a lot of other things
we can do. I mean, you get to a certain
point where.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
What's what's motivating what's motivating the trustees to make these decisions.
Speaker 7 (30:51):
Probably it's we're not entirely sure. We're not entirely sure.
To be honest, we've got a suspessions, but it's not
necessarily an afarious is.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
A professional, independent, independent trustee sitting.
Speaker 7 (31:05):
That there are two one a lawyer, one on an accountant, Well, I.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Definitely, yeah, I would. I definitely want to get advice.
So I just all I can say is get advice.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Are you privy to the terms of the trust?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (31:21):
I know the deed of the trust. All the beneficiaries do.
And there is a line in there, last line of
the potential people in the of discretion that says yes, charities.
So we've had and most of the time, and correct
me if I'm wrong. Is that when there's a left
over a mount in a trust that's an economical or
(31:44):
quite small, then charities can ah.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
So you reckon in significant amount. And as opposed to
the trustees who are going well we're going to get
forty percent to a charitable trust.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
I've never known trustees, even for insigments, amounts to just
say well, I'll pick a trust, a charitable trust, and
I'll just put it over there when there's beneficiaries around.
So and if you've got a lawyer and an accountant
who's sitting there as the trustees, those are those are
professional people bound by professional bodies. So we're very unusual
(32:16):
decision for them both to wake up in the morning
and think, yeah, let's do this now. So that's why
I say get advice. There'll be document There'll be some
documentation around that. Lawyers can look at.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
How much work are we talking about a significant amount
of money here? Bill?
Speaker 7 (32:32):
It depends if you're in on mask, no, but if
you are sitting in the bar, I won't. I won't
exactly say how much it is. But it's that involves
a farm. Okay, right, okay, a chunk of a farm.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
That is, So do the can I do the lawyer
and the accountant sort of know each other? Is there
any connection? Are they sort of part of the same
zer a professional Yep? So they're not they're not too
They're not independent in terms of being unknown to each other,
they are well acquainted with each other.
Speaker 7 (33:03):
Oh yeah, they've been. They've been there being professionally for
years for one of the upper the original people that
set up the trust.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
And they given any explanation as to why they're spending
this money on a charitable trust.
Speaker 7 (33:16):
They believe that the verbal wishes of the now deceased
person who's who who had the family trust in their name?
Speaker 4 (33:26):
Okay, and I know you said there wasn't a memory
and wishes, but those professionals may have other papers to hand,
so and they.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
Are, you know, trying to find out.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Yeah. And you know that's why I say I get
advice because it sounds to me like there's an awful
lot more to it than just two professionals waking up
and deciding, willing lily what they want to do that
accountants and lawyers don't do that.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Oh well, that's no.
Speaker 7 (33:47):
And to and to be fair, there is another family
member who's a trustee, who's who's very kicking on this idea.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
So ah, okay, yeah, So unfortunately.
Speaker 7 (33:57):
It's a name, you've got an emotional.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Yeah, and unfortunately it's going to get messy.
Speaker 6 (34:01):
Yeah, good luck with that Okay, that's one way to
put it.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yep, thanks Bill. Wow, that's a lot to unpack, isn't it?
Are there sometimes? Is there a chance that Bill might
not be privy to some of the documents and things
that have and if he's going to find that, well,
I would have thought that the trustees would if they're
going to have to go to court, if it's going
(34:26):
to get it lititious, you'd think if they had other
information that Bill should know about as to why they're
acting this way, they should be like, hey, lock Bill
before you go to court. Here's this letter from the settler.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Saying possibly, but it is. But there will be a
process of discovery, so a lot of information will will
come out.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
How much discretion do trustees have? And I'm just as
a ballpark guess on without the specific case, but.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
Well, if it's a discretionary family trust, remember beneficiaries under
discretional family trust are only entitled to be considered. They're
not entitled of receiving any asset or any benefit from
the trust, absolutely, which is quite different from a fixed trust,
where you beneficiaries trustees do have discretion, but the discretion
has got to be you know, you've got to exercise
(35:11):
your discretion reasonable. So they couldn't just take a farm
and say I think that we'll give forty percent to SBCA.
You know, there's got to be something around that when
they've got other beneficiaries sitting there. I'm sure that if
that went to court, the courts would want to know
what that back their reasons documentation. Have they got that
(35:33):
sort of thing?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Well, it sounds like a fascinating case for litigation, but
not that litigation is fun for anyone. We're going to
take a quick moment. We'll come back with with Janet
Zukashi's managing director of New Zealand Family Trust Services, and
it's twelve minutes to see gosh, time is flying at
nine minutes to six, So John, Hello, Hi, this.
Speaker 8 (35:55):
Is a quick question, and it's an observation after the fact.
We've had a long standing trust because we had a
business earlier in our life and we no longer have it.
Around twenty nineteen, our legal our lawyer who was a
professional trustee on our trust passed away and we realized
pretty quickly how much we've relied upon him for vice
guidance without kind of understanding it ourselves. His practice went
(36:20):
to a new law firm, and they raised some alarm bells,
so we have a complicated them with one of a
better term. My wife has children from previous marriage and
they were part of our will, but not total will.
So I guess my christian is to clarify because I'm
feeling a little bit naked not having a trust now,
if I'm being honest, because I've had that most of
most of my life. But the advice we got given
(36:42):
was our will would be overridden by the trust, including
all of the descendants of my wife woman who person marriage.
That would have an impact on what might happen to
anything that was involved in the trust. In our estates
is that a correct process for.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
A will is overriding a trust that's been around for.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Years ti years.
Speaker 8 (37:03):
No, the trust, the trust would override the will.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Whatever the will.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Well, the trust has some assets and your will has others.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
They're really they're really quite different. I mean, will deals
with your personal states. So they're the assets that aren't
in the trust. If you want to look.
Speaker 8 (37:19):
At all of the assets, we're in the trust.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Ah, okay, so you don't really have many assets to
bequeath most of your most of the assets are in
the trust.
Speaker 8 (37:29):
They included properties, and so we dissolved the trust on
the rest that if we didn't in all of the
descendants in my side would have an ability to challenge
the will.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
So so you've dissolved the trust and the money is
back with the assets are back with.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
You, So they're falling to your personal states. So you
would deal with that under your wills.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yes, I don't know how the trust when it's dissolved
can still be in play, Janet, That's not That's what John.
Speaker 8 (38:00):
But I guess what I'm saying was it got given
that our will was that because the trust would challenge
the will?
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (38:09):
I think are you trying to say? Are you trying
to say that all the beneficiaries would come forth and
the trust and say, you know, I'm expecting to get
something here.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Is this when the trust was at Was this when
the trust was active? Yes, okay, I mean.
Speaker 8 (38:25):
Without the trust now, So that's what And I realized
how much I relied on our official trust that you
passed away. And then the advice that we've got, and
we acted quite quickly because it's when the trust laws changed. Yes,
we had a window to kind of do something that's
what we got told. Yeah, I guess it's just some
advice for others to the class of the wishes of
your will. But if you have a trust, the class
(38:47):
between the trust deeds and the people that are in
time to that trust. Because we had very different ideas
about what's happening to all of our stuff and our
will to what actually could happen through the trust.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I think there's a misunderstanding here, isn't it that if
there are assets in the trust, those assets are in
the trust. And if there are assets that are not
in the trust that are yours, John, they're yours.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Their personal assets and they dealt with the will.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
So I think there's a blariness that when people feel that, Okay,
this is in a trust, well, if it's in the trust,
it's in the trust.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
And they kind of think that that, oh, yes, it's
a trust, but it's they're my assets. And that's where
that's where people come unstuck, because then they go ahead
and they start doing things with those trust assets and
they're leaving out the rest of the trustees with making
proper decisions.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
And then we're not giving specific advice here, John, But
I it sounds like if he's dissolved the trust, then
the assets are now with people, and if it's with you,
you can do.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
With I would think they could do what they.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Generally what you want assets subject to the law about
trying to cut people out of wills who think they've
got to claim on your will, and that.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Could blur the waters to testamentially, well, that's one of
the reasons actually why people set up a trust. I
was going to s they get around they get around
the Family Protection Act. Well they don't get around it,
but it certainly gives them a bit of protection against
claims on the Family Protection Act and the and you know,
the Testamentary Promises Act, that sort of thing. They take
(40:22):
it out of their personal possession.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
And by the way, I probably was, I mean, we
do have the trust expert here, and I was sort
of giving my own opinion on that, but I was
reasonably confident. You know, it's my b plus and equity
that I got back in university back in the day.
Speaker 6 (40:36):
But it is.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
But that was the thing I learned from our previous
chat is that people have a casual latitude towards trusts
and they sort of think that the money is still there,
whereas no, No, it isn't a trust, so don't.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Forget and consult with all the trustees rather than just
expect it to be a favor of complete gosh.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Times up, Thanks Janet. We could have we could have
talked about. We still haven't said who needs a trust?
We'll left to ask that next time. And do I
need a trust? Who do you need to trust? Does
anyone need to trust? And when should you consider it?
We'll do that next time, shall we? Excellent, We'll get
onto that. It was the first question I answered and
asked I never answered anyway. Thanks my producer, Ty Award.
Go and check out the podcast on News Talk Seed
(41:19):
B or on iHeartRadio, and we'll look forward to your
company next weekend Sunday at six. As next enjoy the
rest of your evening. Catch your saying.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
For more from the Weekend collective. Listen live to News
Talk Said B weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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