November 29, 2025 • 40 mins
The school year is drawing to an end and soon enough, families will be filling school halls and gymnasiums for the end-of-year prizegiving.
For the star students or athletes, it's a moment of pride to walk across the stage and receive a well-earned award. For others, the whole thing can feel demoralising.
Never mind the awards themselves - there are clear differences between some, like the dean's award and the most improved.
But on the other hand, do we really want to be handing out participation awards? Are they inclusive or are they encouraging mediocrity?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Ab Way you think, Abady, you've been happy? Yes, you know,
I can take it turning in day so many days
and I can see you working.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
So welcome back to the Weekend Collective, Tim Beverage, we've
just joined us. Welcome in or welcome back, and this
is the Parents Squad and we're going to kick off
chat about prize givings because in a school year is
drawing to an end and soon enough, of course, you know,
families are filling the school school school halls, and for
star students and athletes, it's a moment where they get
(00:53):
to have a moment of pride for them and their families.
But sometimes for others there can be an intense sense
of disappointment or maybe it's even demoralizing if they sit
there and they've worked hard all year and there's nothing
coming their way. And so we're going to dig into
what do you make of prize givings? And I mean it,
are they in themselves a lesson around achievement and other
(01:16):
things in terms of dealing with disappointment If you haven't
got the actual, if you haven't got a prize, if
your child hasn't got a prize, do you deal with
the disappointment of it or is there a chance to
talk to your kids around Okay, well you didn't receive
a prize, but you can have a think about what
you've achieved this year and are there things you want
to do better? Because I mean, there'll be a lot
of people who'd say that sometimes the best lessons you
(01:38):
learn in life might actually follow a disappointment and make
you better than your would rather than that. There might
be a child who's naturally talented, doesn't strive and wins
all the prizes simply because they're a little bit clever.
But do they always go on to have the success
in life? Well, possibly, but not necessarily all the time.
So we're going to have a chat about prize givings.
Do you love them, hate them? And are they something
(01:59):
that you should really dwell on? Give us a call
on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty two and we
might if we've got time. We're going to have to
dig in with helping your kids with career choices as well,
which is a topic in our house right now I
have to share with you. But anyway to discuss that
and other things joining us. She is a neuroscience educator
(02:20):
and her name is Katherine Burkett, who needs no further
in introduction for this show. Really, Catherine, how are you going?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I'm doing really well, thanks to.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Now just quickly before we get into it. You've got
how many books? You've got a new book out or something,
haven't you?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I have my first ever book, so it's pretty big actually,
So yeah, my first.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Book, your first book. For some reason, I thought that
you might have had another one. So, and what's tell
us about it?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Well, we actually talked about it. I think remember we
put it out for people to come in with some
titles a few months ago. We asked them, that's probably
why you think. I look, you've got one, but yeah,
it's about the adolescent brain, the neuroscience, so how the
brain changes and why we can expect quite a better
turmoil during.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yes, yeah, you've reminded me actually in fact, so the
title what's going on there? Was that one of the
ones that we do. We I think we had some
reasonably good titles.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Did we reasonally good ones? It wasn't that one, but
we had some really good ones. Some people came up
with some good ones. But it was my publisher who
came up with that.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
So yeah, okay, okay, so we go with that one,
and it's basically about what the neuroscience of teenagers is.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
It, Yeah, how the brain's changed, so for parents, for educators,
for stuff. So because it's a pretty hard road right
when our kids are going through all of that upgrade.
So yeah, it's just to help parents and other people
with young people negotiate the way through. It's out.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So it's out now, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
It's out now. I can order it from me on
my website or you can get it from your bookstore.
And if it's not in your bookstore, go and ask
them for it and I'll order it in.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, what's going on there?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
You go?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Now, hey, what do you think of prize givings? Did
you actually were you a prize winning student back when
you were at school?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Not at all, Not at all. And yeah, I mean
this is a very very famous subject that comes up
this time of year. So it's.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Innovative anyway, you're always.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Innovative to but it's quite like it's a big thing,
right last year was it? Last year? The year before
a school in Alterroher somewhere canceled prize giving at the
last minute because they were so worried about the anxiety
and the upset from the young people that weren't going
to get prizes. And I totally understand it. I hear it,
and we can talk through that. But my thing is,
(04:43):
was that principle going to go to all of the
interviews that these kids went for and go to the
CEO of the interview and say, well, actually, could you
give all the kids a job because you know they'll
get disappointed if they don't get the job. Well, we
actually can't get rid of disappointment for our young people,
do you see? And I would rather my kid didn't
get the prize at prize giving and learn from that
(05:05):
then not get their first job and have never failed before.
Because we've cushioned everything, We've taken away all opportunity to
learn about not getting what we want. Do you see.
I know it's hard, but it's an easier one to
learn there than it might be later on in life
where you don't get the project finished or something like that.
You see, failure can get a lot bigger than prize getting.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I'm trying to remember from my own experience I did
get a couple of prizes at school probably of course.
I got one for music and I got one for history,
I think, and at the time, I mean, we knew
who the really bright kids were, and we sort of
the prizes. It didn't bother us. In fact, I was
(05:46):
surprised when I got a prize, and I sort of
thought it was it was nice, but I didn't.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Actually that didn't hinge it all to my sense of
well being or my own sense of self respect. But
it does. I just wonder that, you know, there are
some schools where they're very achievement driven, and you know
there's a whole culture of schools. Now they're wearing badges
for this achievement and that achievement. Is it a bigger
deal these days, the whole prize giving or what's your
(06:14):
take on it.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
It is because our awareness of each other is increased
with social media, right, So now you'll get that kids
share it, parents share it. Look at my child, they
got the st to forget they got the award. Yeah,
whereas before we sort of, like you said, we went
to prize givings and you sort of knew who was
going to get them. Who did enough, you did, you
got and it was great. But back then as well,
(06:37):
there was more about the journey than the prize at
the end. So if you didn't get the prize, the
journey was sort of all about how you get there.
Now we're putting a lot of pressure on that outcome
because yeah, we facebook it and we put it out
on social media, and we get it seen. It's a
lot seen. And so if my child gets a prize,
it makes me a better pearent, you know. So there's
(06:57):
a lot of that which some parents even aren't aware of,
is that it's actually about us proving our compencity to
be a parent, and so we put pressure on our kids.
We put pressure so that we can post things, you know.
And I know I'm being really quite high and harsh,
but that's where it sort of comes from, do you know.
And it wasn't my parents if I had won a prize,
who was going to know?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Actually that's the point, isn't it. I think you've nailed
it actually, because yeah, when I won, you won a
prize at score you you've got a book or something,
and you went home and then that was it. And
maybe at Christmas time some of your relatives might have learned,
but it wasn't something where it was broadcast everywhere to
all your peers. And maybe is that a problem or not?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
The fact that I believe absolutely it is. Yeah, because
it becomes more about the prize. It becomes more about
the acknowledgment and the end than then how did you
get there? What did you do to get there? And
on the along the way? Were you kind? Were you empathic?
Were you helpful? Did you do it as a team?
But now it's about the end result, the shiny thing
that we can hold up at the end, rather than
(08:07):
the process. And I do if that's what we're going
to focus on, if that's what we're going to push
our kids to get. Gosh, if you get an award,
I'll give you a prize. If you get this, I'll
take you out for dinner. Actually, if I can see
that you've done your absolute best and you've tried your hardest,
that's where it's at, whether you get a prize or not.
But if you haven't tried your hardest, even if you
get a prize, you ain't getting I'm not going to
(08:30):
celebrate that. Do you see what I mean? Like, if
we make it more about that journey, but it's become
the shiny award at the end, and we're losing sight
of the process. And I don't disagree full hardly with
prize givings. What I disagree is they are making that
absolute point of end the ultimate, rather than the process.
So I do believe it is an issue how far
(08:52):
it gets spread now because it puts more pressure on everyone.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Because there was a school that the school, in fact
it was I do remember that, but it's actually surprisingly
a number of years ago. It was in twenty eighteen
there was a story about Silverdale Primary School which had
announced its decision to cancel prize giving. But I mean, see, yeah,
I mean obviously that would have been talked around a
lot then, but I it does.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
It's a college. It was a college more recently. I
think I was that, I think from what I remember.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, And what do you make of that decision ultimately?
I mean, as you say you probably alluded to it
in your initial remarks, is that some people go to
a job and and some people will get the job
and others won't. I mean, isn't it just about it
introducing kids to success? And oh, well I've done. I
want to say that's failure, but says success and other things.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
But failure is part Why can't we use that word?
And and okay, not winning. We can use that or achieve,
not achieve, which is our language. It is actually not
getting there, it's failing. It's it's not it's and what's
wrong with that? I've done a lot of that in
my life. It happens all the time. And if we don't,
if we start to cushion it when it's not that bad,
(10:03):
especially if we're talking about primary intermedia. I mean, honestly,
is it really a problem if you don't get a
prize at those years?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
The reason we learn that stuff?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
The reason I avoided the word failure was because the
prize is for something above and beyond. Because plenty of
kids can succeed at school without getting a prize at
prize giving. Is what I meant. You know, you can pass,
you can get merit, can get whatever. But there's only
one person who's going to get the ducks or the
runner up ducks or whatever other prizes there are, yeah,
and all the other people.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I mean, what I do believe at prize givings is
we should be prize giving for more than the academic subjects,
and that's what we should be understanding, because in this world,
to actually be successful is not purely about academic achievement.
It's about that teamwork. It's about that being able to organize,
It's about being able to run something and do some
(10:53):
organizer session for fundraising for something, and getting acknowledged for
those sorts of things, being a leader, because those are
actually the things that are going to be really honored
in this world. So I agree that we should get prizes,
but we should broaden which prizes are given, and we
should get a bit more about the process rather than
just the award at the end.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Actually, to be fair, at the school my girls go to,
I don't know how where they keep their trophies, but
they do have trophies for a lot of different things.
In fact, I think in their sports award there was
one I can't remember how they described it, but was
about it was about It wasn't participation, ether was something
about you know, teamwork and encouraging your other players and
(11:34):
all that sort of thing, and the role you were
playing within a particular sporting code. And I think that
was just about the top. That was one of the
top awards of the night, and I remember thinking that
that was a great thing to acknowledge something that wasn't
necessarily about you know, crossing the finish line and the
fastest time. It was about other things that contributed to
other people's success, which.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Is actually more of a skill that we would need
in our workplace than pure academics.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Do you see, Yeah, we love your cause on this
prize givings them, hate them? Are they good?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Bad?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
I mean, you know, should we get rid of them?
Or is it just a good opportunity for your kids
to learn that, you know what, you can't win them all.
In fact, that pretty much sums up my philosophy, and
I think by accident.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
I mean well done.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I mean that's sort of the lesson, isn't it that
kids need to learn at some stage it's like, look, honey,
you can't win them all. You're not going to win everything,
or you know, might not win anything even if.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You try your hardest. It's someone sometimes it's some personal
subjective decision or and that's what all through their life.
My kids when they've I still me and my daughter's
very young in primary and she wrote a story and
it was really good, but it wasn't the right type
of story. They said, no, we wanted this type of story,
and she got all up. I was like, let's either
ask more about the process or just guess what. Someone
(12:53):
liked your other story better. And it's and it's all
about learning along the way. We shouldn't cushion or say
can we give our kid a prize because she tried.
It's like, actually, it is going to get to the
point where we can't all get pre But it shouldn't
be about the prize. It should be about, man, did
you enjoy writing the poem? Did you enjoy writing the story?
Did you enjoy that? Did you get something out of it?
What have we learned along the way? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, I agree. Yeah right, let's take some course of
eight hundred eighty ten eighty prize givings. Love them, hate them?
How do you help your kids get through a disappointment
if they were really hoping for something they didn't or
is it just one of life's lessons that they all
need to learn that you just support them through and
then where they go?
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Right?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Sharon, Hello, Hi, Hell, are you good? Thanks?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
I went to an extravaganza last night, a prize giving
for a private school. In christ years there would have
been several thousand there. Wow, it's the Oh yeah, it's
the same. I've been twice now. Now they they acknowledge
the academia, but they also acknowledge other things. But also
scattered in amongst the different prizes was the school jazz
(13:59):
band with the singer, the school orchestra, the school ballet,
the school pipe band, the school car parker. So all
of those people are winners in their own right. And
the most important thing was the head boy speech at
the end of the night, the outgoing head boy, and
he covered from when he joined the school, and he
covered about everybody. You might not get an academic prize
(14:23):
or whatever, but everybody has a talent and that talent
will always come through in the right circumstances. It wasn't
it was. It is amazing every year. So they just
do it very very good, and they'll have a they
might have the jazz band with the singer, and then
they'll give a group of prizes for a certain year
and they just call them out one by one in
sections of eight, and they don't don't clap. They stand
(14:45):
in front of the stage. Everybody claps, and the way
they go then they'll bring on and they have some
sort of item.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
It's absolutely there was absolutely superb. And that that head
boy's speech, that was key.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
He told all of those people and those kids, you
are all winners.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Actually you said you've you said you've been to two
or three of them. I think us at one of
the better head boys speeches that you'd seen.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
No, they're all good, they're all good. No, just no,
but that was particularly that was particularly good last night.
But no, they all speak with compassion and what have you,
you know, I mean, yeah, it was just it's just
a great it's just a great night, or it was great.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
They start at four o'clock and go, it goes for
about three hours.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
How many price what was the price that stood out
to you that you thought, gosh, that what an awesome
prize for someone to get acknowledgment.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
There was one an acknowledgment of a child there that
was for the gym. And the child didn't look like
an athlete. Yeah, and so he was given a prize.
Must have been for his effort and things like that.
There was and there was sporting it was sporting prizes.
There were just yeah, and it was prizes for people
(16:01):
that had shown empathy and helped and helped people. You
know that the girl from the girl from the International
student area. Over years she helped everybody, helped the new
students bead in and did a lot of things for them.
And yeah, a lot of people were acknowledged. That's just
the chemistry and the meths and the and the ducks
(16:23):
and everything else.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
And they did the prize for that.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
You know, they have four different houses at the school,
and so the prize for the one in house and
all the kids were, you know, yelling and Yahoo.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
When what was your connection with the school? Were you
there as a family member or member of the community.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
So I know the first time I went, I had
an international student. I've got a company that brings an
international student and we were the guardian for him. And
then last night and was called back to China her
father passed away. So I tooked to your child and yes,
so no, it's just it's just a it's just a
great night, good stuff, and everybody is.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, good stuff. Thanks Sharon, appreciate you calling and just
and thanks you.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
That's so so lovely. But what I get a feeling
from that is every young person that goes in they
get up on the jazz band like you said, or
the copperhaker or whatever, they feel like they've contributed to
the night, They've contributed something. There was a reason for
them being there, and I think that's what we can
really increase with our young people. So they just don't
turn up, watch the ducks get their prize and walk away.
(17:30):
Was there a reason I was there and most of
those kids would have felt that from that being involved
in that space. I think that's a really nice part
of a prize giving.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Hey, we want your cause on this. What do you
make of our school prize givings? Are they a good
or a bad thing? Are there an opportunity for kids
to celebrate success, but also, you know, have a reflection
on maybe the disappointment and what they might do differently
if they wanted to get a prize oras actually getting
a prize? Is that really I mean, if the goal
is the prize, I would tend to think that that
(18:01):
might be a problem in itself, because it's all about
something extrinsic over which you might not actually have any control.
So we'd love your take on it. Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty in text me on nine two nine two.
I'm with Katherine Burkett. She's a neuroscience educator. And by
the way, she's got a new book out. I'm not
a new book out. It's the same book. Sorry, we
(18:22):
were talking about it a while ago. It's called What's
going On in There? It's the Neuroscience of the Adolescent Brain,
will be it's what was? It came out a couple
of days ago. Yeah, it's twenty five past five News Talks.
He'd be this news Talks. He'd be with a Tim Beveridge.
A prize givings love and hate them? Do we like
to celebrate success or would you prefer that we were
like the school that canceled its prize giving because of
(18:43):
the traumata people who kids who didn't get a prize.
I'm summing that up in a very crude fashion. By
the way, my guest is Katherine Burkett, neuroscience educator. Let's
take some more calls.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Sue, Hello, oh, good ay, Hi, there you going.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
So I have a sort of a different perspective because
my boy I pulled him out of this particular schooler
here because it was unsafe. But that's another story for
another day. They refused to allow children with special needs
to go to any of the prize fooling celebrations, but.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
They didn't actually get to celebrate.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
The successes of their peers. And I found that to
be very very negative.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
That sounds so weird. What was the rational they have.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
A rationale.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
The only reason that they ever could come up with
is odds. It's pretty hard for these children sit through
an assembly. But this child, my child, I'll only talk
about him, sat through assemblies from when he was five
to when he was on two, and all of a
sudden he didn't have the ability to sit through assembly,
not that they have attested it once. And so he
used to see his you know, up until four and two,
(19:56):
he saw his mates go up and get awards, and
afterwards he'd take photos with them. He'd be very very
happy with them. Occasionally he'd get an award because in
the previous schools they acknowledged that.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Also, you've just gone muffled there, so.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Sorry, is it better?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Sorry, I'm on a swing season. I spun around. I
At his previous school, he got awards from time to
time because they would acknowledge that for him, he did
exceptionally well, you know, not on an academic standard but
for him, and they gave an award just once in
a blue moon, but it meant that he went to
(20:36):
an assembly and once in a blue moon he would
get one and he would you know, he would see
his peers. But at the secondary school, no, they thought
they did not make it possible. In fact, they sent
the children home on the afternoon of the awards ceremonies.
They didn't care. So my my point is that that
(20:57):
what I think is really valuable is because when an
awards given was merit as an merit for the award,
not with but when there's a good reason behind the water,
usually most of the kids get behind it and are
really excited by it. And shouldn't we be bringing our
kids to actually celebrate people who do really well as well?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
That does seem a strange one, doesn't it, Catherine.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, And that's I mean, obviously that's to do with
and so you're probably are quite clear on that to
do with the school's values and stuff themselves. But I
really love your point is that we should celebrate other
people's success as well, because that is part of life,
isn't it. And it's about being excited and like you said,
your son would get excited when he saw his peers achieving.
He wasn't put down by it, he was enjoying it.
(21:48):
So I think that's part of what we should be
doing with our young people as well. Is absolutely, yeah,
if your friends get this, didn't they deserve it or
you know, let's celebrate with them. So I think that's
a really good, very beautiful point.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, one hundred and eighty ten eighty love your calls
on this. We've got a few texts here. One says
I was quite taken aback at my first prize giving.
I'm from the UK. It seemed a huge vent and
I felt over the top, but soon changed my stants
like your caller. There were many performances from variety of
groups that the students are incredibly supportive of one another
in their contributions and best prize for me the mana
(22:22):
award in sports, and another one that says prize giving
is a celebration of success, something to reinforce the strengths
of the winner winners, and something to strive for for
those who didn't win this time, and another one that
says we don't need to dumb down everyone, which is
celebrate achievements. The idea that you give everyone a prize
for competing is like giving all kids who go to
(22:42):
a birthday party a gift. Crazy idea. Ha, it's funny
that this person mentions that, Catherine, but I was introduced
to that idea before I had kids by made of mine,
who says, mate, birthday parties have all changed when you've
got to give gifts to the kids who come as
well as like what but Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Thirty bags over the top bags. Yeah, I hated it
because I didn't have goodie bags. There was just no chance.
And I had ice cream cakes, so they couldn't even
take any cake home. So they left with nothing. And
that's fine, And they didn't have to bring anything if
they didn't want. I didn't care if they didn't bring
a gift. But yeah, it's all changed, doesn't it. You
do have to give gifts to the kids, So you're right,
that is a bit of a goal.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I sort of hope that that's sort of that goes
on the slide about that trend. But anyway, let's take
some more calls and hello, oh.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Hello, hello.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
I I remember taking my kids to secondary school with
the awards ceremony and year after year, the same children,
the same children boring and very disheartening. And I went
to a school and the Catholic priest insisted that every
(23:55):
child had to have an award for something that they
actually had achieved. They all had to get an award.
And when I became a school teacher, and I remember
one time when I was very early in myoly days,
I was relieving five year old and and I thought
to myself, because I hadn't had any experience with them,
(24:15):
and I thought to myself, Oh, I'll give them the best,
three best children. At the end of the day, I'll
give them a reward. And so at three o'clock they
were all ready to go home, and they gave three
children a lolly each, and then the whole rest of
the class all burst into tears. And so they all
(24:36):
left the classroom bawling their heads off with the appearance
all waiting. Yes they were, because they were. When there
were five, they were quite sure that they were wonderful people.
And as time has gone by, kids gradually get to
(24:57):
know that they're they're not so wonderful at all, and
they're the best of the line.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And I just think it's how the tears.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
All of the whole class burst into tears. Apart from the.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
First How old were they?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Fine?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Okay, okay, well I don't know this. I don't know
how to handle those situations, Catherine, But yeah, what's your
take on it.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
But you're exactly right. They're not aware, are they? And
I talk about the fact that we do have to
bring our kids into the world off not winning, not
being the best at everything, but it's called tolerable and
at that age, absolutely right, And they don't understand that
sort of stuff. So it's okay for kids to be
not you know, put the best one or that sort
(25:44):
of stuff because they don't understand it. But they will
gradually and they will get there, not all at the
same stage, and we do need to start having that,
but yeah, at a very young age, we need to
just participation. And you mentioned the word intrinsic ru wards
as well, Tim, And what's a really fascinating and it's
been replicated heats is a study when they took preschoolers
and they ask them, what's your favorite thing to do?
(26:05):
And the ones that loved drawing that just said, we
love drawing. So what they started doing is giving them
prizes for their drawings. So saying that was what every
time they did a good drawing, wonderful, wonderful and extrinsic rewards,
you know, lollies or whatever. And then they stopped giving
them the rewards, and those kids stopped drawing and they
stopped doing the thing they loved because it was intrinsically
(26:27):
rewarding and we'd given them extrinsics. So and that's not
prize giving. I'm not saying get rid of prize giving,
because that's a long road. You've got to do really
hard for a long time to get that prize at
the end. But if we do start thinking that rewarding
kids and giving them that prize all the time is good,
it can be counterintuitive. So it should be more that
they enjoy doing it, and we should give them low
(26:49):
dopamine rewards, as in, hey, if you get that, we'll
go for a walk together, we'll spend time together. So
it's not a sugar rush or as salt rush or
something like that. So there is some worries living really
high dopamine activating rewards. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Actually, I guess different kids respond different to different leader,
different challenges. For some kids, they they're enough with their
intrinsic sort of reward, aren't they, Whereas with others they're competitive,
you know, they thrive on winning. I mean, there's no
right or wrong, is there?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
In a way?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I mean, I tend to think intrinsic rewards are the
probably the longer term sort of the best sort of motivation.
But then the kids who just like to win, is
there anything wrong with that?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
If you've got that person, I mean, that's that driven personality, right,
I want to be first, I want to be the winner.
That's fantastic. It's still an intrinsic that's their personality. But
as long as we don't start making that the be
all or end all, like you said, are really really
a person who wins all the time may not be
that person who in life becomes the person who's able
to stick it out.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I was working with some academy coaches and stuff, and
they talked about really good sports people coming in and
maybe only lasting six months because they'd always won, they'd
always been the best, and they had to compete against others.
Whereas your kids, who were sort of second in line
came in and stuck it out a much longer because
they'd learned to endure that failure and not coming first.
But if your internal thing is to win, you will
(28:15):
learn to be great because you will strive for that.
So there's nothing wrong with that, but let's not turn
it into extrinsic rewards for winning. Keep that intrinsic. I
just want to win because I want to be a winner.
That's great.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, okay, we want your call, so I one hundred
and eighty ten eighty would love you to join the conversation.
It's twenty two minutes to six. But also before we
were at this up, I've threatened this for a while
to be talking about how you help your kids with
career choices and things like that. We might dig into
that in the last little bit of this hour as well,
if we've got time. I'm with Katherine Burkett. She's in
(28:48):
neuroscience educator. We'll be back in just a moment. It's
coming up to twenty one minutes to six. Yes, News Talks,
there'd be. My guest is Katherine Burkett, neuroscience educator. I've
been talking about prize givings, love them or hate them.
But the other thing I want to talk about, Catherine
is oh, by the way I should read this funny
little text out said dear Timming Catherine. I got an
award at school in the mid seventies for being a
good milk monitor, says ray l and which you know
(29:15):
milk to be honest, I mean, if you're an effective
milk monitor. And wonder what he became. It'd be funny
if he said now I'm a policeman.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
And or a milk or a milk milk delivery person.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
One person says here awards should be for excellence only. Also,
most schools also give award for effort or most improved
as well. I'm not sure if they're agreeing with that
or not. It says rubbish giving everyone a certificate. But
I think you know, most improved and the effort and things,
I mean probably those are the things are going to
stand you're in good stead, aren't they.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, it was mentioned earlier, and I really like it
coming before Sawa and who said it. But we should
only get a certificate for something that has pushed us
into a space that's uncomfortable. So I do agree with
getting it for if if that if it has been
over and above what you would have done before. Do
you see if someone just turns out people just gets there. No,
(30:06):
they should not get a certificate for not pushing into
the uncomfortable, but pushing into the uncomfortable. Not they should.
I'm not saying they should get a certificate, but if
you're going to give certificates for anything, it should never
be for when you haven't pushed yourself into the uncomfortable.
Doc So I totally get that. I think if you
just turn up or you're just doing a regular thing,
(30:26):
you should not get an award for that. That's not
what we should get awards for. I need to push
myself into the uncomfortable, go above and beyond. Only then
should I expect something to be recognized. I totally agree
on that space.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Hey, the other thing I just wanted to I want
to touch on for this our Catherine is the career
choices thing. Now we've got this going on in our
house a little bit, because you know, it seemed to
be that a lot of kids it depends on the school,
of course, but a lot of children, I still call
them children. Everything a forteen or fifteen or whatever seem
(31:01):
to be quite certain about all that. There's this encouragement
they should know what they're going to want to do
for the rest of their lives, which I find well.
I mean, one of my daughters has got friends who
are very certain about what they want to do. In fact,
I think I've mentioned this before, I did speak to
one of them who wants who knew very clearly what
she wanted to do, is that she wanted to be
(31:22):
a pediatric an enthesiologist or something. She had planned out
how she was going to a university in Australia because
it was too hard to get in ere. She had
a bunch of plans around and I thought, well, that's
pretty admirable. But to a lot of other kids, that'd
be purely terrifying because they'd be like, I haven't got
a clue.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, And that's an individual space. So first of all,
if your kids are absolutely set on being a pediatricia
and astist, then make sure they go and actually try
and do the job, or hang out with someone or
talk with someone and see that actually, you know, do
they hate needles? They walk in and they go, oh, actually,
I didn't realize you're gonna have to use needles. So
let's make sure that you give them a chance to
(32:04):
see that job in action or whatever. You know, talk
about radiologists or the X ray people. You have to
be in a dark room all day. Did you realize
that when you signed up for the job. So if
your kid really wants to be something, then can you
get them to see that job in reality because they
may have read it in a book and they love
the idea of it, but the reality might be different.
(32:25):
So I would definitely suggest that.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
But even then, I mean, I mean, when how do
you help children? I don't mean children, you know your kids,
your kids? How do you help them if they are
unsettain with what they want to do? I mean, I
look at my career. I mean I I went to
law school because I thought I wouldn't. I liked history,
but I wanted to make money out of words, so
I thought I'd be a lawyer. Then I started practicing
(32:49):
law and I thought, don't like that. Then became you know,
a musician, singer, a bunch of things, concert producer, and
then I mean, I couldn't have imagined my career, and
I maybe I'm still working it out.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
But.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
How do you how do you do you guide your
kids through helping them make those choices?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
And this is another thing when we look back at
do we need to make that choice by the time
we leave school. And if they haven't got their heart
set on anything, you know, if they've got their heart
set on thing, they're pretty sure what they want to do.
Even if you go off and be that anesthetic person
and you don't end up being in that job, it
doesn't matter. You've gone and you've studied and you've done
things just like you did with law, right, so it's
(33:29):
not a problem. But if you haven't got an idea,
first of all, let's get our kids out and seeing
things and talking to them about different things, and they
might get a spark. They might go, oh, I've never
thought that that could be. You know, Like my son
was in a bit of a quandary and a friend
of mine's husband was actually an anesthetic technician, and he
talked it through and Mason was like, oh, that looked interesting,
(33:50):
looked into it, didn't want to do it, but we
never even knew it was an option. What I'm saying is,
try and talk to people, get options for your kid
and talk to them and see what sparks them. And
if not, as long as they're doing something, even in
their gap year or whatever, when they finished school, as
long as they get up, they're doing something that they're
heading towards something, They've got a purpose. It doesn't matter
(34:10):
that it's not on some sort of perfect track, because
they need to find that track. They need to get
where they need to get to, and it takes a
long time for some people.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, where did you know what you wanted to do?
I mean your career path when you were growing up?
Did you have an interest in sort of well, neuroscience,
I'm guessing is not something you focused on when you
were fifteen.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
No, and not even speaking. It wasn't an option to
be to be a speaker, which is what I do.
I wanted to be an occupational therapist. Someone said, work
with young people with intellectual disabilities. I did. One of
the ladies said, go work with Make's husband, he works
with behavior kids. Walked into the alternative education went this
is it, and very much I've stayed on that track.
I've sort of gone sideways, but very much working with
(34:54):
young people who don't fit the mold. And I found it,
but I only found it from her saying, actually, I
think you do well over here. I went over there.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
Boom.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I wouldn't have I would never have thought it myself.
So I think we've got to let our kids find places,
try this, do this, and then they'll find what they
click with.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, I mean because it ties into subject choices as well,
and there's that pressure to sort of, well, this is
where the pressure comes from. It's because you know there
are now options. You know, around the age of fourteen fifteen,
there are subject choice options you can take. And the
messages are, well, if you're interested in going to a
(35:35):
career and such and such, you really need to be
taking science, you need to be taking biology and all
that sort of thing. And there be kids who might
be interested in those, but in those sorts of careers
like medicine or physiotherapy or whatever who haven't got any
idea of that. So, yeah, what are your thoughts around
all that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
We've got to remember that this is a lot of
set back and when you couldn't access that stuff if
you didn't go to school. So like my daughter in
whatever year ten eleven, when you could choose, she didn't
want to do maths. She was very good at it.
She goes, Mom, I don't want to do maths. I said,
we'll drop it. And her friends and everything we like,
but you have to take maths? What if you I
(36:15):
was like, no, she doesn't. If she chooses a career
choice later on that she wants to do, she'll go
and do an online math course that will help her
get the skills she needs for that. Do you see
what I mean? Like, we don't really have to worry
too much now. If they want to be and they
want to do maths, they'll want to do maths. But
to say to them, I think you should do science
(36:37):
just in case you want to be a doctor, that's
not what we should be doing because if they don't
do that actual subject, there are so many options now
that you can go to polytechs or at any age
or online anywhere and fill in those gaps that you
haven't got. So I don't think we should be creshing
our kids to do things just in case that's important
(36:58):
for their career. Because they're feeling better about themselves is
a much better option.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Should you tell them that their career is going to
guarantee them a life of poverty?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Which career is that? Artist? No?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
No, I I mean there'd be look, I know there'd
be people would say, well, I'm not going to mention
any professions right, because I don't want to. But there
are some jobs which pay a hell of a lot
less than others, and we live in a society where
housing is incredibly expensive. I mean, should money and income
form any part of something you need to bring to
your kid's attention, because I I think I would. If
(37:35):
they said I want to be something, I thought, well,
that is going to be a real struggle, so long
as you're preferred to acknowledge that you may not make
the money that you think someone's going to make. So
if somebody wanted to be I'm going to be a
movie star, well, chances are they might be a movie star.
Chances are they'll be a jobbing actor on a few
hundred bucks a week at a local theater company. At best.
(37:59):
I don't mean they'll do it.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
For a couple of years and then they'll choose to
do something and then they'll go and retrain because they
can train now and they would have learnt from that.
But if you said, don't be a struggling actor, go
and do this because you'll make money, then they'll always
regret not having it. Think about you, the fun you
had that, the you had doing that, you know. So yeah,
I think we shouldn't be making those choices because our
(38:23):
kids will get there. But if they do some job,
that's But by the way, back when when we said
go to university, don't go do a vocational job, now
you get a plumber, a builder, and electrician. And then
you look at my daughters just in the law, and
some of the people graduating from law can't find jobs
in law. So being a lawyer wasn't the best option. Actually,
(38:44):
if you've gone on it out and been a builder,
you're probably making a lot more money now than the
kids have gone and spent all that money on law.
I'm not saying it's a bad option. I'm saying let's
be careful about assuming what that you know the outcome
of that choice, and you can always become a manager
of or have your own business or you know what
I mean. We should try and let them find their
own parts. You're right, don't let them fall over completely.
(39:08):
But finding their own way means they look back on
their lives and go I made that choice, and I
supported in that choice instead of someone else pushing me
down an avenue I might not have wanted to go down.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Good stuff. Hey Catherine, got that time for this flowing,
isn't it. Thank you so much. And so the books
have been out a couple of days.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah, a couple of days. Should be in bookstores now,
like I said, ask for them. But on my website
you can order it directly from me as well, so
Engage training dot co dot in z if you would
like to order it from me. But it should be
out and hopefully people find it really useful if you've
got young adolescents or even coming up to adolescents, so
it will be helpful.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Great stuff. Hey, thanks so much, Catherine, lovely lovely to
catch up and we'll talk again. Merry Christmas. I think
we can start saying, yeah, can we I'll not talk Monday. Okay,
well you have a good Christmas then take care. We'll
be back in just a moment. It is seven minutes
to six News Talks.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
It be for more from the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Listen live to News Talks It be weekends from three pm,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Ab Way you think, Abady, you've been happy? Yes, you know,
I can take it turning in day so many days
and I can see you working.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
So welcome back to the Weekend Collective, Tim Beverage, we've
just joined us. Welcome in or welcome back, and this
is the Parents Squad and we're going to kick off
chat about prize givings because in a school year is
drawing to an end and soon enough, of course, you know,
families are filling the school school school halls, and for
star students and athletes, it's a moment where they get
(00:53):
to have a moment of pride for them and their families.
But sometimes for others there can be an intense sense
of disappointment or maybe it's even demoralizing if they sit
there and they've worked hard all year and there's nothing
coming their way. And so we're going to dig into
what do you make of prize givings? And I mean it,
are they in themselves a lesson around achievement and other
(01:16):
things in terms of dealing with disappointment If you haven't
got the actual, if you haven't got a prize, if
your child hasn't got a prize, do you deal with
the disappointment of it or is there a chance to
talk to your kids around Okay, well you didn't receive
a prize, but you can have a think about what
you've achieved this year and are there things you want
to do better? Because I mean, there'll be a lot
of people who'd say that sometimes the best lessons you
(01:38):
learn in life might actually follow a disappointment and make
you better than your would rather than that. There might
be a child who's naturally talented, doesn't strive and wins
all the prizes simply because they're a little bit clever.
But do they always go on to have the success
in life? Well, possibly, but not necessarily all the time.
So we're going to have a chat about prize givings.
Do you love them, hate them? And are they something
(01:59):
that you should really dwell on? Give us a call
on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty two and we
might if we've got time. We're going to have to
dig in with helping your kids with career choices as well,
which is a topic in our house right now I
have to share with you. But anyway to discuss that
and other things joining us. She is a neuroscience educator
(02:20):
and her name is Katherine Burkett, who needs no further
in introduction for this show. Really, Catherine, how are you going?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I'm doing really well, thanks to.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Now just quickly before we get into it. You've got
how many books? You've got a new book out or something,
haven't you?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I have my first ever book, so it's pretty big actually,
So yeah, my first.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Book, your first book. For some reason, I thought that
you might have had another one. So, and what's tell
us about it?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Well, we actually talked about it. I think remember we
put it out for people to come in with some
titles a few months ago. We asked them, that's probably
why you think. I look, you've got one, but yeah,
it's about the adolescent brain, the neuroscience, so how the
brain changes and why we can expect quite a better
turmoil during.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yes, yeah, you've reminded me actually in fact, so the
title what's going on there? Was that one of the
ones that we do. We I think we had some
reasonably good titles.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Did we reasonally good ones? It wasn't that one, but
we had some really good ones. Some people came up
with some good ones. But it was my publisher who
came up with that.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
So yeah, okay, okay, so we go with that one,
and it's basically about what the neuroscience of teenagers is.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
It, Yeah, how the brain's changed, so for parents, for educators,
for stuff. So because it's a pretty hard road right
when our kids are going through all of that upgrade.
So yeah, it's just to help parents and other people
with young people negotiate the way through. It's out.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So it's out now, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
It's out now. I can order it from me on
my website or you can get it from your bookstore.
And if it's not in your bookstore, go and ask
them for it and I'll order it in.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, what's going on there?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
You go?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Now, hey, what do you think of prize givings? Did
you actually were you a prize winning student back when
you were at school?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Not at all, Not at all. And yeah, I mean
this is a very very famous subject that comes up
this time of year. So it's.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Innovative anyway, you're always.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Innovative to but it's quite like it's a big thing,
right last year was it? Last year? The year before
a school in Alterroher somewhere canceled prize giving at the
last minute because they were so worried about the anxiety
and the upset from the young people that weren't going
to get prizes. And I totally understand it. I hear it,
and we can talk through that. But my thing is,
(04:43):
was that principle going to go to all of the
interviews that these kids went for and go to the
CEO of the interview and say, well, actually, could you
give all the kids a job because you know they'll
get disappointed if they don't get the job. Well, we
actually can't get rid of disappointment for our young people,
do you see? And I would rather my kid didn't
get the prize at prize giving and learn from that
(05:05):
then not get their first job and have never failed before.
Because we've cushioned everything, We've taken away all opportunity to
learn about not getting what we want. Do you see.
I know it's hard, but it's an easier one to
learn there than it might be later on in life
where you don't get the project finished or something like that.
You see, failure can get a lot bigger than prize getting.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I'm trying to remember from my own experience I did
get a couple of prizes at school probably of course.
I got one for music and I got one for history,
I think, and at the time, I mean, we knew
who the really bright kids were, and we sort of
the prizes. It didn't bother us. In fact, I was
(05:46):
surprised when I got a prize, and I sort of
thought it was it was nice, but I didn't.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Actually that didn't hinge it all to my sense of
well being or my own sense of self respect. But
it does. I just wonder that, you know, there are
some schools where they're very achievement driven, and you know
there's a whole culture of schools. Now they're wearing badges
for this achievement and that achievement. Is it a bigger
deal these days, the whole prize giving or what's your
(06:14):
take on it.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
It is because our awareness of each other is increased
with social media, right, So now you'll get that kids
share it, parents share it. Look at my child, they
got the st to forget they got the award. Yeah,
whereas before we sort of, like you said, we went
to prize givings and you sort of knew who was
going to get them. Who did enough, you did, you
got and it was great. But back then as well,
(06:37):
there was more about the journey than the prize at
the end. So if you didn't get the prize, the
journey was sort of all about how you get there.
Now we're putting a lot of pressure on that outcome
because yeah, we facebook it and we put it out
on social media, and we get it seen. It's a
lot seen. And so if my child gets a prize,
it makes me a better pearent, you know. So there's
(06:57):
a lot of that which some parents even aren't aware of,
is that it's actually about us proving our compencity to
be a parent, and so we put pressure on our kids.
We put pressure so that we can post things, you know.
And I know I'm being really quite high and harsh,
but that's where it sort of comes from, do you know.
And it wasn't my parents if I had won a prize,
who was going to know?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Actually that's the point, isn't it. I think you've nailed
it actually, because yeah, when I won, you won a
prize at score you you've got a book or something,
and you went home and then that was it. And
maybe at Christmas time some of your relatives might have learned,
but it wasn't something where it was broadcast everywhere to
all your peers. And maybe is that a problem or not?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
The fact that I believe absolutely it is. Yeah, because
it becomes more about the prize. It becomes more about
the acknowledgment and the end than then how did you
get there? What did you do to get there? And
on the along the way? Were you kind? Were you empathic?
Were you helpful? Did you do it as a team?
But now it's about the end result, the shiny thing
that we can hold up at the end, rather than
(08:07):
the process. And I do if that's what we're going
to focus on, if that's what we're going to push
our kids to get. Gosh, if you get an award,
I'll give you a prize. If you get this, I'll
take you out for dinner. Actually, if I can see
that you've done your absolute best and you've tried your hardest,
that's where it's at, whether you get a prize or not.
But if you haven't tried your hardest, even if you
get a prize, you ain't getting I'm not going to
(08:30):
celebrate that. Do you see what I mean? Like, if
we make it more about that journey, but it's become
the shiny award at the end, and we're losing sight
of the process. And I don't disagree full hardly with
prize givings. What I disagree is they are making that
absolute point of end the ultimate, rather than the process.
So I do believe it is an issue how far
(08:52):
it gets spread now because it puts more pressure on everyone.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Because there was a school that the school, in fact
it was I do remember that, but it's actually surprisingly
a number of years ago. It was in twenty eighteen
there was a story about Silverdale Primary School which had
announced its decision to cancel prize giving. But I mean, see, yeah,
I mean obviously that would have been talked around a
lot then, but I it does.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
It's a college. It was a college more recently. I
think I was that, I think from what I remember.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, And what do you make of that decision ultimately?
I mean, as you say you probably alluded to it
in your initial remarks, is that some people go to
a job and and some people will get the job
and others won't. I mean, isn't it just about it
introducing kids to success? And oh, well I've done. I
want to say that's failure, but says success and other things.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
But failure is part Why can't we use that word?
And and okay, not winning. We can use that or achieve,
not achieve, which is our language. It is actually not
getting there, it's failing. It's it's not it's and what's
wrong with that? I've done a lot of that in
my life. It happens all the time. And if we don't,
if we start to cushion it when it's not that bad,
(10:03):
especially if we're talking about primary intermedia. I mean, honestly,
is it really a problem if you don't get a
prize at those years?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
The reason we learn that stuff?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
The reason I avoided the word failure was because the
prize is for something above and beyond. Because plenty of
kids can succeed at school without getting a prize at
prize giving. Is what I meant. You know, you can pass,
you can get merit, can get whatever. But there's only
one person who's going to get the ducks or the
runner up ducks or whatever other prizes there are, yeah,
and all the other people.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I mean, what I do believe at prize givings is
we should be prize giving for more than the academic subjects,
and that's what we should be understanding, because in this world,
to actually be successful is not purely about academic achievement.
It's about that teamwork. It's about that being able to organize,
It's about being able to run something and do some
(10:53):
organizer session for fundraising for something, and getting acknowledged for
those sorts of things, being a leader, because those are
actually the things that are going to be really honored
in this world. So I agree that we should get prizes,
but we should broaden which prizes are given, and we
should get a bit more about the process rather than
just the award at the end.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Actually, to be fair, at the school my girls go to,
I don't know how where they keep their trophies, but
they do have trophies for a lot of different things.
In fact, I think in their sports award there was
one I can't remember how they described it, but was
about it was about It wasn't participation, ether was something
about you know, teamwork and encouraging your other players and
(11:34):
all that sort of thing, and the role you were
playing within a particular sporting code. And I think that
was just about the top. That was one of the
top awards of the night, and I remember thinking that
that was a great thing to acknowledge something that wasn't
necessarily about you know, crossing the finish line and the
fastest time. It was about other things that contributed to
other people's success, which.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Is actually more of a skill that we would need
in our workplace than pure academics.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Do you see, Yeah, we love your cause on this
prize givings them, hate them? Are they good?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Bad?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
I mean, you know, should we get rid of them?
Or is it just a good opportunity for your kids
to learn that, you know what, you can't win them all.
In fact, that pretty much sums up my philosophy, and
I think by accident.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
I mean well done.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I mean that's sort of the lesson, isn't it that
kids need to learn at some stage it's like, look, honey,
you can't win them all. You're not going to win everything,
or you know, might not win anything even if.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You try your hardest. It's someone sometimes it's some personal
subjective decision or and that's what all through their life.
My kids when they've I still me and my daughter's
very young in primary and she wrote a story and
it was really good, but it wasn't the right type
of story. They said, no, we wanted this type of story,
and she got all up. I was like, let's either
ask more about the process or just guess what. Someone
(12:53):
liked your other story better. And it's and it's all
about learning along the way. We shouldn't cushion or say
can we give our kid a prize because she tried.
It's like, actually, it is going to get to the
point where we can't all get pre But it shouldn't
be about the prize. It should be about, man, did
you enjoy writing the poem? Did you enjoy writing the story?
Did you enjoy that? Did you get something out of it?
What have we learned along the way? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, I agree. Yeah right, let's take some course of
eight hundred eighty ten eighty prize givings. Love them, hate them?
How do you help your kids get through a disappointment
if they were really hoping for something they didn't or
is it just one of life's lessons that they all
need to learn that you just support them through and
then where they go?
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Right?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Sharon, Hello, Hi, Hell, are you good? Thanks?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
I went to an extravaganza last night, a prize giving
for a private school. In christ years there would have
been several thousand there. Wow, it's the Oh yeah, it's
the same. I've been twice now. Now they they acknowledge
the academia, but they also acknowledge other things. But also
scattered in amongst the different prizes was the school jazz
(13:59):
band with the singer, the school orchestra, the school ballet,
the school pipe band, the school car parker. So all
of those people are winners in their own right. And
the most important thing was the head boy speech at
the end of the night, the outgoing head boy, and
he covered from when he joined the school, and he
covered about everybody. You might not get an academic prize
(14:23):
or whatever, but everybody has a talent and that talent
will always come through in the right circumstances. It wasn't
it was. It is amazing every year. So they just
do it very very good, and they'll have a they
might have the jazz band with the singer, and then
they'll give a group of prizes for a certain year
and they just call them out one by one in
sections of eight, and they don't don't clap. They stand
(14:45):
in front of the stage. Everybody claps, and the way
they go then they'll bring on and they have some
sort of item.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
It's absolutely there was absolutely superb. And that that head
boy's speech, that was key.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
He told all of those people and those kids, you
are all winners.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Actually you said you've you said you've been to two
or three of them. I think us at one of
the better head boys speeches that you'd seen.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
No, they're all good, they're all good. No, just no,
but that was particularly that was particularly good last night.
But no, they all speak with compassion and what have you,
you know, I mean, yeah, it was just it's just
a great it's just a great night, or it was great.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
They start at four o'clock and go, it goes for
about three hours.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
How many price what was the price that stood out
to you that you thought, gosh, that what an awesome
prize for someone to get acknowledgment.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
There was one an acknowledgment of a child there that
was for the gym. And the child didn't look like
an athlete. Yeah, and so he was given a prize.
Must have been for his effort and things like that.
There was and there was sporting it was sporting prizes.
There were just yeah, and it was prizes for people
(16:01):
that had shown empathy and helped and helped people. You
know that the girl from the girl from the International
student area. Over years she helped everybody, helped the new
students bead in and did a lot of things for them.
And yeah, a lot of people were acknowledged. That's just
the chemistry and the meths and the and the ducks
(16:23):
and everything else.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
And they did the prize for that.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
You know, they have four different houses at the school,
and so the prize for the one in house and
all the kids were, you know, yelling and Yahoo.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
When what was your connection with the school? Were you
there as a family member or member of the community.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
So I know the first time I went, I had
an international student. I've got a company that brings an
international student and we were the guardian for him. And
then last night and was called back to China her
father passed away. So I tooked to your child and yes,
so no, it's just it's just a it's just a
great night, good stuff, and everybody is.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, good stuff. Thanks Sharon, appreciate you calling and just
and thanks you.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
That's so so lovely. But what I get a feeling
from that is every young person that goes in they
get up on the jazz band like you said, or
the copperhaker or whatever, they feel like they've contributed to
the night, They've contributed something. There was a reason for
them being there, and I think that's what we can
really increase with our young people. So they just don't
turn up, watch the ducks get their prize and walk away.
(17:30):
Was there a reason I was there and most of
those kids would have felt that from that being involved
in that space. I think that's a really nice part
of a prize giving.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Hey, we want your cause on this. What do you
make of our school prize givings? Are they a good
or a bad thing? Are there an opportunity for kids
to celebrate success, but also, you know, have a reflection
on maybe the disappointment and what they might do differently
if they wanted to get a prize oras actually getting
a prize? Is that really I mean, if the goal
is the prize, I would tend to think that that
(18:01):
might be a problem in itself, because it's all about
something extrinsic over which you might not actually have any control.
So we'd love your take on it. Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty in text me on nine two nine two.
I'm with Katherine Burkett. She's a neuroscience educator. And by
the way, she's got a new book out. I'm not
a new book out. It's the same book. Sorry, we
(18:22):
were talking about it a while ago. It's called What's
going On in There? It's the Neuroscience of the Adolescent Brain,
will be it's what was? It came out a couple
of days ago. Yeah, it's twenty five past five News Talks.
He'd be this news Talks. He'd be with a Tim Beveridge.
A prize givings love and hate them? Do we like
to celebrate success or would you prefer that we were
like the school that canceled its prize giving because of
(18:43):
the traumata people who kids who didn't get a prize.
I'm summing that up in a very crude fashion. By
the way, my guest is Katherine Burkett, neuroscience educator. Let's
take some more calls.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Sue, Hello, oh, good ay, Hi, there you going.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
So I have a sort of a different perspective because
my boy I pulled him out of this particular schooler
here because it was unsafe. But that's another story for
another day. They refused to allow children with special needs
to go to any of the prize fooling celebrations, but.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
They didn't actually get to celebrate.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
The successes of their peers. And I found that to
be very very negative.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
That sounds so weird. What was the rational they have.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
A rationale.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
The only reason that they ever could come up with
is odds. It's pretty hard for these children sit through
an assembly. But this child, my child, I'll only talk
about him, sat through assemblies from when he was five
to when he was on two, and all of a
sudden he didn't have the ability to sit through assembly,
not that they have attested it once. And so he
used to see his you know, up until four and two,
(19:56):
he saw his mates go up and get awards, and
afterwards he'd take photos with them. He'd be very very
happy with them. Occasionally he'd get an award because in
the previous schools they acknowledged that.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Also, you've just gone muffled there, so.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Sorry, is it better?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Sorry, I'm on a swing season. I spun around. I
At his previous school, he got awards from time to
time because they would acknowledge that for him, he did
exceptionally well, you know, not on an academic standard but
for him, and they gave an award just once in
a blue moon, but it meant that he went to
(20:36):
an assembly and once in a blue moon he would
get one and he would you know, he would see
his peers. But at the secondary school, no, they thought
they did not make it possible. In fact, they sent
the children home on the afternoon of the awards ceremonies.
They didn't care. So my my point is that that
(20:57):
what I think is really valuable is because when an
awards given was merit as an merit for the award,
not with but when there's a good reason behind the water,
usually most of the kids get behind it and are
really excited by it. And shouldn't we be bringing our
kids to actually celebrate people who do really well as well?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
That does seem a strange one, doesn't it, Catherine.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, And that's I mean, obviously that's to do with
and so you're probably are quite clear on that to
do with the school's values and stuff themselves. But I
really love your point is that we should celebrate other
people's success as well, because that is part of life,
isn't it. And it's about being excited and like you said,
your son would get excited when he saw his peers achieving.
He wasn't put down by it, he was enjoying it.
(21:48):
So I think that's part of what we should be
doing with our young people as well. Is absolutely, yeah,
if your friends get this, didn't they deserve it or
you know, let's celebrate with them. So I think that's
a really good, very beautiful point.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, one hundred and eighty ten eighty love your calls
on this. We've got a few texts here. One says
I was quite taken aback at my first prize giving.
I'm from the UK. It seemed a huge vent and
I felt over the top, but soon changed my stants
like your caller. There were many performances from variety of
groups that the students are incredibly supportive of one another
in their contributions and best prize for me the mana
(22:22):
award in sports, and another one that says prize giving
is a celebration of success, something to reinforce the strengths
of the winner winners, and something to strive for for
those who didn't win this time, and another one that
says we don't need to dumb down everyone, which is
celebrate achievements. The idea that you give everyone a prize
for competing is like giving all kids who go to
(22:42):
a birthday party a gift. Crazy idea. Ha, it's funny
that this person mentions that, Catherine, but I was introduced
to that idea before I had kids by made of mine,
who says, mate, birthday parties have all changed when you've
got to give gifts to the kids who come as
well as like what but Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Thirty bags over the top bags. Yeah, I hated it
because I didn't have goodie bags. There was just no chance.
And I had ice cream cakes, so they couldn't even
take any cake home. So they left with nothing. And
that's fine, And they didn't have to bring anything if
they didn't want. I didn't care if they didn't bring
a gift. But yeah, it's all changed, doesn't it. You
do have to give gifts to the kids, So you're right,
that is a bit of a goal.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I sort of hope that that's sort of that goes
on the slide about that trend. But anyway, let's take
some more calls and hello, oh.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Hello, hello.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
I I remember taking my kids to secondary school with
the awards ceremony and year after year, the same children,
the same children boring and very disheartening. And I went
to a school and the Catholic priest insisted that every
(23:55):
child had to have an award for something that they
actually had achieved. They all had to get an award.
And when I became a school teacher, and I remember
one time when I was very early in myoly days,
I was relieving five year old and and I thought
to myself, because I hadn't had any experience with them,
(24:15):
and I thought to myself, Oh, I'll give them the best,
three best children. At the end of the day, I'll
give them a reward. And so at three o'clock they
were all ready to go home, and they gave three
children a lolly each, and then the whole rest of
the class all burst into tears. And so they all
(24:36):
left the classroom bawling their heads off with the appearance
all waiting. Yes they were, because they were. When there
were five, they were quite sure that they were wonderful people.
And as time has gone by, kids gradually get to
(24:57):
know that they're they're not so wonderful at all, and
they're the best of the line.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And I just think it's how the tears.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
All of the whole class burst into tears. Apart from the.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
First How old were they?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Fine?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Okay, okay, well I don't know this. I don't know
how to handle those situations, Catherine, But yeah, what's your
take on it.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
But you're exactly right. They're not aware, are they? And
I talk about the fact that we do have to
bring our kids into the world off not winning, not
being the best at everything, but it's called tolerable and
at that age, absolutely right, And they don't understand that
sort of stuff. So it's okay for kids to be
not you know, put the best one or that sort
(25:44):
of stuff because they don't understand it. But they will
gradually and they will get there, not all at the
same stage, and we do need to start having that,
but yeah, at a very young age, we need to
just participation. And you mentioned the word intrinsic ru wards
as well, Tim, And what's a really fascinating and it's
been replicated heats is a study when they took preschoolers
and they ask them, what's your favorite thing to do?
(26:05):
And the ones that loved drawing that just said, we
love drawing. So what they started doing is giving them
prizes for their drawings. So saying that was what every
time they did a good drawing, wonderful, wonderful and extrinsic rewards,
you know, lollies or whatever. And then they stopped giving
them the rewards, and those kids stopped drawing and they
stopped doing the thing they loved because it was intrinsically
(26:27):
rewarding and we'd given them extrinsics. So and that's not
prize giving. I'm not saying get rid of prize giving,
because that's a long road. You've got to do really
hard for a long time to get that prize at
the end. But if we do start thinking that rewarding
kids and giving them that prize all the time is good,
it can be counterintuitive. So it should be more that
they enjoy doing it, and we should give them low
(26:49):
dopamine rewards, as in, hey, if you get that, we'll
go for a walk together, we'll spend time together. So
it's not a sugar rush or as salt rush or
something like that. So there is some worries living really
high dopamine activating rewards. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Actually, I guess different kids respond different to different leader,
different challenges. For some kids, they they're enough with their
intrinsic sort of reward, aren't they, Whereas with others they're competitive,
you know, they thrive on winning. I mean, there's no
right or wrong, is there?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
In a way?
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I mean, I tend to think intrinsic rewards are the
probably the longer term sort of the best sort of motivation.
But then the kids who just like to win, is
there anything wrong with that?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
If you've got that person, I mean, that's that driven personality, right,
I want to be first, I want to be the winner.
That's fantastic. It's still an intrinsic that's their personality. But
as long as we don't start making that the be
all or end all, like you said, are really really
a person who wins all the time may not be
that person who in life becomes the person who's able
to stick it out.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I was working with some academy coaches and stuff, and
they talked about really good sports people coming in and
maybe only lasting six months because they'd always won, they'd
always been the best, and they had to compete against others.
Whereas your kids, who were sort of second in line
came in and stuck it out a much longer because
they'd learned to endure that failure and not coming first.
But if your internal thing is to win, you will
(28:15):
learn to be great because you will strive for that.
So there's nothing wrong with that, but let's not turn
it into extrinsic rewards for winning. Keep that intrinsic. I
just want to win because I want to be a winner.
That's great.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, okay, we want your call, so I one hundred
and eighty ten eighty would love you to join the conversation.
It's twenty two minutes to six. But also before we
were at this up, I've threatened this for a while
to be talking about how you help your kids with
career choices and things like that. We might dig into
that in the last little bit of this hour as well,
if we've got time. I'm with Katherine Burkett. She's in
(28:48):
neuroscience educator. We'll be back in just a moment. It's
coming up to twenty one minutes to six. Yes, News Talks,
there'd be. My guest is Katherine Burkett, neuroscience educator. I've
been talking about prize givings, love them or hate them.
But the other thing I want to talk about, Catherine
is oh, by the way I should read this funny
little text out said dear Timming Catherine. I got an
award at school in the mid seventies for being a
good milk monitor, says ray l and which you know
(29:15):
milk to be honest, I mean, if you're an effective
milk monitor. And wonder what he became. It'd be funny
if he said now I'm a policeman.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
And or a milk or a milk milk delivery person.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
One person says here awards should be for excellence only. Also,
most schools also give award for effort or most improved
as well. I'm not sure if they're agreeing with that
or not. It says rubbish giving everyone a certificate. But
I think you know, most improved and the effort and things,
I mean probably those are the things are going to
stand you're in good stead, aren't they.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, it was mentioned earlier, and I really like it
coming before Sawa and who said it. But we should
only get a certificate for something that has pushed us
into a space that's uncomfortable. So I do agree with
getting it for if if that if it has been
over and above what you would have done before. Do
you see if someone just turns out people just gets there. No,
(30:06):
they should not get a certificate for not pushing into
the uncomfortable, but pushing into the uncomfortable. Not they should.
I'm not saying they should get a certificate, but if
you're going to give certificates for anything, it should never
be for when you haven't pushed yourself into the uncomfortable.
Doc So I totally get that. I think if you
just turn up or you're just doing a regular thing,
(30:26):
you should not get an award for that. That's not
what we should get awards for. I need to push
myself into the uncomfortable, go above and beyond. Only then
should I expect something to be recognized. I totally agree
on that space.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Hey, the other thing I just wanted to I want
to touch on for this our Catherine is the career
choices thing. Now we've got this going on in our
house a little bit, because you know, it seemed to
be that a lot of kids it depends on the school,
of course, but a lot of children, I still call
them children. Everything a forteen or fifteen or whatever seem
(31:01):
to be quite certain about all that. There's this encouragement
they should know what they're going to want to do
for the rest of their lives, which I find well.
I mean, one of my daughters has got friends who
are very certain about what they want to do. In fact,
I think I've mentioned this before, I did speak to
one of them who wants who knew very clearly what
she wanted to do, is that she wanted to be
(31:22):
a pediatric an enthesiologist or something. She had planned out
how she was going to a university in Australia because
it was too hard to get in ere. She had
a bunch of plans around and I thought, well, that's
pretty admirable. But to a lot of other kids, that'd
be purely terrifying because they'd be like, I haven't got
a clue.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, And that's an individual space. So first of all,
if your kids are absolutely set on being a pediatricia
and astist, then make sure they go and actually try
and do the job, or hang out with someone or
talk with someone and see that actually, you know, do
they hate needles? They walk in and they go, oh, actually,
I didn't realize you're gonna have to use needles. So
let's make sure that you give them a chance to
(32:04):
see that job in action or whatever. You know, talk
about radiologists or the X ray people. You have to
be in a dark room all day. Did you realize
that when you signed up for the job. So if
your kid really wants to be something, then can you
get them to see that job in reality because they
may have read it in a book and they love
the idea of it, but the reality might be different.
(32:25):
So I would definitely suggest that.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
But even then, I mean, I mean, when how do
you help children? I don't mean children, you know your kids,
your kids? How do you help them if they are
unsettain with what they want to do? I mean, I
look at my career. I mean I I went to
law school because I thought I wouldn't. I liked history,
but I wanted to make money out of words, so
I thought I'd be a lawyer. Then I started practicing
(32:49):
law and I thought, don't like that. Then became you know,
a musician, singer, a bunch of things, concert producer, and
then I mean, I couldn't have imagined my career, and
I maybe I'm still working it out.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
But.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
How do you how do you do you guide your
kids through helping them make those choices?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
And this is another thing when we look back at
do we need to make that choice by the time
we leave school. And if they haven't got their heart
set on anything, you know, if they've got their heart
set on thing, they're pretty sure what they want to do.
Even if you go off and be that anesthetic person
and you don't end up being in that job, it
doesn't matter. You've gone and you've studied and you've done
things just like you did with law, right, so it's
(33:29):
not a problem. But if you haven't got an idea,
first of all, let's get our kids out and seeing
things and talking to them about different things, and they
might get a spark. They might go, oh, I've never
thought that that could be. You know, Like my son
was in a bit of a quandary and a friend
of mine's husband was actually an anesthetic technician, and he
talked it through and Mason was like, oh, that looked interesting,
(33:50):
looked into it, didn't want to do it, but we
never even knew it was an option. What I'm saying is,
try and talk to people, get options for your kid
and talk to them and see what sparks them. And
if not, as long as they're doing something, even in
their gap year or whatever, when they finished school, as
long as they get up, they're doing something that they're
heading towards something, They've got a purpose. It doesn't matter
(34:10):
that it's not on some sort of perfect track, because
they need to find that track. They need to get
where they need to get to, and it takes a
long time for some people.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, where did you know what you wanted to do?
I mean your career path when you were growing up?
Did you have an interest in sort of well, neuroscience,
I'm guessing is not something you focused on when you
were fifteen.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
No, and not even speaking. It wasn't an option to
be to be a speaker, which is what I do.
I wanted to be an occupational therapist. Someone said, work
with young people with intellectual disabilities. I did. One of
the ladies said, go work with Make's husband, he works
with behavior kids. Walked into the alternative education went this
is it, and very much I've stayed on that track.
I've sort of gone sideways, but very much working with
(34:54):
young people who don't fit the mold. And I found it,
but I only found it from her saying, actually, I
think you do well over here. I went over there.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
Boom.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I wouldn't have I would never have thought it myself.
So I think we've got to let our kids find places,
try this, do this, and then they'll find what they
click with.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, I mean because it ties into subject choices as well,
and there's that pressure to sort of, well, this is
where the pressure comes from. It's because you know there
are now options. You know, around the age of fourteen fifteen,
there are subject choice options you can take. And the
messages are, well, if you're interested in going to a
(35:35):
career and such and such, you really need to be
taking science, you need to be taking biology and all
that sort of thing. And there be kids who might
be interested in those, but in those sorts of careers
like medicine or physiotherapy or whatever who haven't got any
idea of that. So, yeah, what are your thoughts around
all that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
We've got to remember that this is a lot of
set back and when you couldn't access that stuff if
you didn't go to school. So like my daughter in
whatever year ten eleven, when you could choose, she didn't
want to do maths. She was very good at it.
She goes, Mom, I don't want to do maths. I said,
we'll drop it. And her friends and everything we like,
but you have to take maths? What if you I
(36:15):
was like, no, she doesn't. If she chooses a career
choice later on that she wants to do, she'll go
and do an online math course that will help her
get the skills she needs for that. Do you see
what I mean? Like, we don't really have to worry
too much now. If they want to be and they
want to do maths, they'll want to do maths. But
to say to them, I think you should do science
(36:37):
just in case you want to be a doctor, that's
not what we should be doing because if they don't
do that actual subject, there are so many options now
that you can go to polytechs or at any age
or online anywhere and fill in those gaps that you
haven't got. So I don't think we should be creshing
our kids to do things just in case that's important
(36:58):
for their career. Because they're feeling better about themselves is
a much better option.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Should you tell them that their career is going to
guarantee them a life of poverty?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Which career is that? Artist? No?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
No, I I mean there'd be look, I know there'd
be people would say, well, I'm not going to mention
any professions right, because I don't want to. But there
are some jobs which pay a hell of a lot
less than others, and we live in a society where
housing is incredibly expensive. I mean, should money and income
form any part of something you need to bring to
your kid's attention, because I I think I would. If
(37:35):
they said I want to be something, I thought, well,
that is going to be a real struggle, so long
as you're preferred to acknowledge that you may not make
the money that you think someone's going to make. So
if somebody wanted to be I'm going to be a
movie star, well, chances are they might be a movie star.
Chances are they'll be a jobbing actor on a few
hundred bucks a week at a local theater company. At best.
(37:59):
I don't mean they'll do it.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
For a couple of years and then they'll choose to
do something and then they'll go and retrain because they
can train now and they would have learnt from that.
But if you said, don't be a struggling actor, go
and do this because you'll make money, then they'll always
regret not having it. Think about you, the fun you
had that, the you had doing that, you know. So yeah,
I think we shouldn't be making those choices because our
(38:23):
kids will get there. But if they do some job,
that's But by the way, back when when we said
go to university, don't go do a vocational job, now
you get a plumber, a builder, and electrician. And then
you look at my daughters just in the law, and
some of the people graduating from law can't find jobs
in law. So being a lawyer wasn't the best option. Actually,
(38:44):
if you've gone on it out and been a builder,
you're probably making a lot more money now than the
kids have gone and spent all that money on law.
I'm not saying it's a bad option. I'm saying let's
be careful about assuming what that you know the outcome
of that choice, and you can always become a manager
of or have your own business or you know what
I mean. We should try and let them find their
own parts. You're right, don't let them fall over completely.
(39:08):
But finding their own way means they look back on
their lives and go I made that choice, and I
supported in that choice instead of someone else pushing me
down an avenue I might not have wanted to go down.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Good stuff. Hey Catherine, got that time for this flowing,
isn't it. Thank you so much. And so the books
have been out a couple of days.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah, a couple of days. Should be in bookstores now,
like I said, ask for them. But on my website
you can order it directly from me as well, so
Engage training dot co dot in z if you would
like to order it from me. But it should be
out and hopefully people find it really useful if you've
got young adolescents or even coming up to adolescents, so
it will be helpful.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Great stuff. Hey, thanks so much, Catherine, lovely lovely to
catch up and we'll talk again. Merry Christmas. I think
we can start saying, yeah, can we I'll not talk Monday. Okay,
well you have a good Christmas then take care. We'll
be back in just a moment. It is seven minutes
to six News Talks.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
It be for more from the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Listen live to News Talks It be weekends from three pm,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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