October 25, 2025 • 35 mins
Should you stay together for the kids?
A lot of the time it does more harm than good - and countless adults will tell you they wished their parent had split when they were children.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Is coming.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Please welcome funis.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Don't Lenythings appearing?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yes, welcome back or welcome into the Weekend Collective. If
you just joined us on tim Beverage and don't forget
the sports rap shortly before Sex with Nathan Lynn will
be care giving ourselves an update on what's going on
with the Auckland FC match. But right now this is
the Parents Squad where we cover all things parenting and
we'd love you to join us with your thoughts, you
comments are and all your experience on eight hundred and
(01:03):
eighty ten eighty and as I say, you can text
on nineteen nine two. Hey, just to quick note, I
did get quite a few texts very last minute on
the one roof during the one Roof shown whether that
was something where the system was a bit slow passing
them on, but if I didn't we there were some
questions I actually would have loved to throw to our guests,
but for some reason they didn't come through till late.
So my apologies are there. But do text in early
(01:26):
if you want to, or call in early if you
want to have your say. On eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty and as I say, text nine two nine two,
and the question we're going to have a chat with
to chat about today is one of those big questions
that a lot of families would face, and it's one
that you know people, it's a difficult one to a
(01:48):
difficult one to actually discuss with people. In a way,
it's it's a loaded issue because people have strong opinions
one way or the other sometimes, and it's the question
of should parents stay together for the sake of the kids?
Now I threw this question out, well, I didn't throw
(02:10):
it out. I was just talking with my producer about
the questions should we stay together for the kids? And
one of the voices from the newsroom called out, gosh,
I wish my parents had split up before the kids,
so I had split up instead of staying together for us.
So they felt that it was a bad idea for them.
And look, I guess, you know, is it ever really
(02:31):
the right call? But sometimes there's the other way of
thinking about it is that there was a time when
divorce became well, it became more permissible. I guess when
it was a time when people felt they had to
stand bad relationships. Now Obviously, if you're in a relationship
(02:52):
with cruelty or violence or anything, obviously that's a no brainer.
But then there might be the argument that sometimes people
split up, they take the same problems to the next
relationship and get divorced again. I mean, so should they
have tried made it work? But is there a point
where you know, maybe you should stay together, because ideally
(03:14):
you don't really want to get divorced while your kids
are still living with you. I don't know. I'm together
with my wife. It's not something we would ever entertain anyway,
because it's well for obvious reasons. But is if you
are in a relationship which were you're having your waxing
and waning, should you actually make an effort to stay
together for the kids? Our eight hundred eighty ten eighty
(03:36):
Have you stayed together for the kids? Did your parents
split up? Or did your parents stay together when in
fact you knew that they had got sick of each
other and you wish that maybe in hindsight, that they
had just split up and you would have dealt with
it at the time. Anyway, I'm not sure if I've
put those questions in the most concise manner, But to
help us wide our way through this issue. She's a
(03:57):
new neuroscience educator from Engaged Training and it's Katherine burkeertt Kido. Catherine,
how are you going?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I'm doing good? Thank you?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Uh, what's what's your hot Do you have a hot
take on this one? Because when you throw it, when
I throw it out to people or just saytion people
stay together for the sake of the kids, you often
get quite an instant reaction from people and then they
deal with the nuances. What's your thoughts on it?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah? So remember I'm going to answer like a neuroscientist
because there's so much more to this than sort of
the kids. Right, there's all the adults involved in their feelings.
But if you're asking me on behalf of the kids,
what we have to calculate is the amount of stress
that they're going to feel in high stress, not not
(04:45):
middle stress. I mean everyone goes through middle stress. So
we're really thinking if the parents stay together, is there
going to be more high stress on the young people
or if they separate, and either of those could be
the same level. Do you see? So I haven't got
the answer of yes you should, no you shouldn't. It's
whether you are creating really high, sort of more intolerable
(05:07):
stress for the kids.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Okay, So if the answer is that a divorce is
going to cause a high or intolerable tolerable, god, I
can't even say it intolerable level of stress. I mean,
how do you? I mean, how do couples navigate this?
And the reason I'm I'm going to probably hesitate a
lot during the course of this conversation is because you
(05:31):
don't know anyone's individual circumstances, and people love to judge,
and you don't want to judge either, And so because
it is an area where it is very difficult to
comment on any individual circumstance, isn't it absolutely?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
And that's why. And I'm I'm the last person who's
a relationship judge. But I've seen a lot of people
go through splits where the kids. I mean, obviously they're
always going to be stressed. Okay, there's always going to
be negatives, But the point is is it intolerable?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Not?
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Is it? Are they really confused? So a lot of
what has to happen is we have to be honest
with the young people to the point not to bring
them into all of the details, but to be honest,
not lying. Now we're going to be fine. We're staying together.
Everybody loves each other. Next minute they're broken up. Well,
then the young person doesn't trust relationships. So it's all
(06:25):
about thinking what level of understanding is my kid's got,
what level of stress. It's really hard because at this stage,
if the parents are themselves in really high stress, one
of the hardest things to do is to think what
can I do to keep my kids out of stress? So,
you know, not being too judge, it's really really hard,
but we've got to think what can we do to
(06:47):
prepare the kids as much as possible yet to have
them knowing what's happening. So, but when you yourself are
in the stress response, it makes it all that much harder, right,
So another really positive thing is making sure you've got
other fun around are the friends. If you're really upset,
really stress, try and get them to go to other
people's places where they can have a little bit of
less stress around them. Maybe those sort of tactics are
(07:09):
really useful.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I guess I'm thinking of situations where people think and
depending on when you got married and what age and
all that sort of thing, but when when couples. Maybe
they're not arguing, they get on fine, but maybe that
you know, it's not honeymoon time, and are there times
when you actually you would think whether it's worth parents
(07:30):
thinking Okay, look, you know, maybe we're not in the
throes of passionate love that we might have been when
we first met or for the first few years, but
it would those be times when you should actually say, okay,
we're right, that's all well and good, but you know,
we should actually consider what the impact would be on
our kids.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, I've seen couples do it amazingly, especially if they
are at that stage.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
So if there's not animosity when you're in a relationship,
it's more likely you can split without animosity, and you
can be really fear with the kids, so the kids
don't become those pinaballs between you. Those kids don't become
the you know, the employee to get each other. They
don't have to go through family caught, they negotiate well.
In those cases, it's more likely you're not going to
(08:18):
create high ends of stress for the young people if
you are. You know, if there's no animosity in the relationship,
it's more likely you can If you wanted to end it.
You can end it without animosity.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So what are the if you are going to I mean,
we'd love your cause, by the way, but in fact
we're not. Catherine and I are not going to suddenly
get a hot take that you should stay together for
the sake of the kids. The only thing I would
the only thing I would say with with couples sometimes
who where things have maybe got not so exciting, is
I don't think your first porter call should be divorced.
I think your first porter call should be well, hang
(08:52):
on a minute, is there something we can do to
work on the relationship where we can get that sense
that marriage can be great again? Because I mean, that's
and look, I'm sure couples go through that all the time,
don't they.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Really, I know this wasn't the subject originally, but it's
a really fantastic subject to learn, And there's a really
amazing book if anybody was interested in this subject. It's
called Actually Sex at Dawn, but subheading is the evolution
of monogamy and understanding relationships and understanding attraction. And one
of the really major things I took from it is
(09:28):
when we become really, really comfortable with each other really
really comfortable with each other. Our brains actually start to
and remember this is neurological, this is all subconscious stuff.
We start to see each other pretty much as siblings,
you know, because we can anticipate each other's moves, we
know what each other's going to do. So the brains
actually starts to be unattracted sexually to someone because of
(09:52):
that sibling sort of feeling, that really really familiarity. I mean,
you've seen it in couples and they split up and
one gets a haircut, or one changes or starts dressing differently,
and then all of a sudden they've met up again,
and there's the attraction back. It's the familiarity, and you've
got to be really careful of And again I'm doing
it from a neuroscience it's perspectives though. Yeah, yeah, really fascinating,
(10:15):
and you do you become really really comfortable with each other,
and the brain actually starts turning off attraction because you
shouldn't be attracted to someone who's that familiar to you
if you can understand the biology around.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah. And actually when we discussed this, actually as my
producer Tire who suggested this topic. But it's been one
of those things where look, I did a little bit
of family law years and years ago, but you would
often see people who had I think it's about knowing
yourself as well. But you get people who will leave
(10:51):
a relationship because that's sort of they're missing the fizz
of first love and all that sort of thing. And
then they establish another relationship and it goes through the
same pattern, and they've never addressed the problems in their
own expectations, and so they go from one relationship to
another that fails because they still haven't addressed with the
problem of it with their own stuff, you know what
(11:11):
I mean. And they take their problems to the next relationship,
same result, next relationship, same result, and it's like, maybe
you should have stuck with the first one. And that's
why the question comes up, especially if there are kids involved.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
One hundred percent and yes, you're one hundred pcent right
taking the problems. But one of the other things, and
this is another thing we talk a lot about when
we talk about online experiences and learning from that sort
of stuff, is the expectations. I mean, who watches chick
flicks and they fall in love and there's sparkles and whatever,
and then for the rest of their lives they're happy.
I mean, honestly, if that's what you're expecting, then clearly
(11:46):
you're going to be disappointed in a relationship because no
relationship literally stays with that spark, you know, for years
and years and years. It can come and go and
things happen. So it's also the expectation, isn't it And
if you realize, And that's why I think that book
was really fascinating for me. Sex at Dawn, sexit Dawn.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, all the absence of it.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
I know, it's how to get it back. I guess
if you if you understand the evolution of monogamy, it's
just about understanding our biology and understanding those the movies
and the songs. It's not how it happens. It's not
you get married and live happily ever after it it's
it's it's hard work we have to consciously work out
through our way through long term relationships because it's not
(12:30):
naturally bilogical to be in long term relationships. But it's
definitely rewarding, but it's also needs a bit of hard work.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Actually reminds me that that the Sex and Dawn topic
reminds me of there's a scene in ted Lasso with
one of the characters, Nate, who ends up with a
girlfriend who he thinks is completely out of his leg
and when they wake up the next morning, he gives
her a kiss good morning, and she goes, have you
just have you? Have you? Have you brushed your teeth? Yeah?
I was thinking those days when you brush your teeth
before your partner wake up, and then you know a
(13:00):
few years later it's like, oh, I'll just anyway, Hey, look,
we'd love your cause on this it's it's about whether
you think, I mean, did you stay together for the
sake of the kids, or maybe the broader question is
for you I eight hundred eighty ten eighty is how
much effort should you make to keep your relationship going
because there are kids involved? Did you do it? Do
(13:21):
you wish you had? Do you wish your parents had
or hadn't? I eight hundred eighty ten eighty Text nine
to nine two. Let's go to the calls. Chris Solo, Hi,
how are you good? Thanks? How you doing good?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Good? Yeah, I'm just saying that. You know, my first
husband and I broke up, Yeah, after twelve years, and
he took the boys like talk the girls.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
But we both remarried and we had a fabulous relationship
with and we did with our new partners, and our
kids didn't suffer. They knew they could stay with me
or stay with him if they wanted to, you know,
the holidays and all that. But it's not always bad.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
How did you manage that when you did separate.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Well, it was we explained to the kids. We were
never in ever enemies. We just sort of fell out.
We just had a lot of differences, but you know,
we remained friends. Yeah, And I think that's the main thing.
You don't have to become enemies. You have your differences,
(14:32):
but apart from that, you know you can just stay friends.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Good on you, it's no biggie.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Well, I think it's as big as you make it
in a way, isn't it, Because of course the problem
is I mean, and we've all seen toxic relationships where
people are out to destroy each other, and I think
it's tragic when the kids are brought up with that.
It's just like the one thing I'd employ anyone when
they're splitting up, for God's sake, don't make your kids
pawns in this or weapons.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Exactly right. You grow up and just understand, you know,
what you're doing to your heads because it's not their fault.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
What's the dynamic then, is it? Are you like one
big extended family sort of thing where you will get on?
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Oh we were. This happened years ago, he has. I've
lost two husbands since then. I've lost him and I've
lost my second husband and I live by myself now.
But my kids I talk to them every week. Got
four in Australia and one in Auckland. And they're fabulous,
(15:33):
you know. They they understand and it's all good.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
How did you go around? You can jump in by
the way, Catherine, you're over on Great Barry Island joining us.
But how did you go around dealing with you said
he took the boys, you took the girls? Is that right?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
How did that come about? Was that just a.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Natural Well that was law back in the seventies.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, oh that was sort of the way it was expected.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah, pretty much. Yes, Yeah, it was tough. You know,
I would have taken them all, yeah, you know, really
I just couldn't. It's just the law back there. It's
obviously changed, thank god since then.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Okay, so that was dictated, Yeah, but it worked out
all right luckily.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Okay, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Thanks for that, Chris. I've just got to check. Yeah, okay,
thanks for your call. I just got to check that
Catherine's there because we have we have had a you've
got any comment there, Katherine.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I was just listening. You were doing a great job.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
It sorry because I was thinking that maybe you dropped
off the line, so I was filling in and I
wouldn't shut up.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
No, but it's exactly right, right, But let's be real,
and I mean we're going across a couple of topics here, Okay,
So when you're talking about the kids, she could put
the kids at the forefront, which is beautiful, and it's
I'm saying splitting up doesn't have to be an issue.
But it's usually not an issue if there's an amicable breakout.
But when it's one partner's really done the dirty on
(17:06):
the other or that that's really hard and then that
person's in stress and they sometimes do fight back, and
the young people do get pulled into that porn situation,
and it's so hard, and it's actually about a lot
of people around being brave enough to step in to
help out all of those sorts of things. So it
is fine. We can do it really amicably. Like I've
said that, we can see it done really well, but
(17:29):
unfortunately it's not always that easy.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
No, you're right, yeah, look, hey, look when need you
to take a quick break, we'll come back and just
to take eight hundred and eighty ten eighty and look.
While the opening question we asked was should you stay
together for the kids, the broader question is if you
have or if you have split up, or whether you've
been a child in a relationship that broke up, what
advice you know, how should you go about doing that
(17:52):
to minimize the trauma for your children? Give us a
call on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text nine
two nine two. We'll be back in just a moment.
It's come out to twenty five past five s. Newstalk said,
b we're talking divorced separation. Should you stay together for
the sake of the kids and all? How should you
manage it as well? And we're with Engaged Training neuroscience
(18:13):
educator Katherine Burkett say, yesterday, just before we go to
Peter next Carlo, there's a couple of some really interesting
texts that people have taken the trouble to write some
significant sort of opinions on this. One says here, if
children are the band aid to a failing relationship, just
pull the pen already. Children are not stupid. They pick
up on the bad vibes. I know we did when
(18:35):
mum and dad were struggling before they ultimately separated and divorce,
says Matt. Actually, Katherine, I've heard that quite a few times,
that when people when the parents have told their kids,
the kids have almost been relieved.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, well, like there's just all of that undercurrent stuff
that kids are one hundred percent picking up, and especially
if it's over long term, it's the new reception, our
scanning for safety. We pick it up and they're not silly,
so it makes them significantly more unsafe than you're actually
telling them the truth that's saying. It's keeping them sort
of being honest with them is really important, and anyone
(19:13):
who's gone through it will exactly as you've stated, will
know that.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, it looks to pet well, by the way, the
people have written some ticks, so I'll definitely get onto
as many as I can, but we'll go to Pete first.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Cat I Pete were letting me tired to both of
you in Malin. Hi. Thanks, well, Hi, I just want
to say, you know, when it comes to divorces and separations,
in some instances, I don't say in all instances, but
in some instance a separation is what it's called for,
(19:49):
especially when these extreme tensions from both partners vibrating and
you've got the kids in right head, the one kid.
But just give me a brief description of my pan
my family. My mum and dad got divorced and I
was nine, and my mom got custody in both me
and my brother. And then when it came to my tune,
(20:12):
I got divorced and I took custody in my then
four year old son. He's really fallen there by the way.
And when my son, well he didn't get married, but
he separated and he got cassody of my grandson when
he was the age of three. So we've had experience
(20:32):
in the business of splitting out just as you could
just a probably humorous look stut all negative. In some
cases the separations called war for all divorce, you know, see,
I don't and maybe one of the partners may have
to move out.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's certainly a chain of events, isn't it, Catherine.
I don't know what to add to what Pete said, But.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Those experiences, right, they're all different, They're all we've got
to do the right thing, that we've got to keep
the kids in as much as we can keep the
kids in the center. But thinking how are they feeling,
you know, not going, oh, we'll stay together because of them,
because is that actually their right idea? What is going
to cause the least over activating stress for them is
really what we're trying to establish.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Here's another text high time. I was in a toxic
relationship for sixteen years. I had five children under fourteen.
We were all traumatized. I left and parented on my own.
My adult children have all had struggles, and three are
unable to deal with their father's drinking and abusive behavior.
My dearest wish is that I didn't leave earlier, but
stayed for the children, which was a grave mistake. My
(21:45):
two youngest, who have spent most of their lives with me,
are happier than the older ones, cheers Mary, Which intuitively
makes sense, isn't it Obviously continuing in a toxic relationship
and just had a bad effect on the children That witnessed.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
It, Catherine, Oh, one hundred percent. One hundred percent and
obviously on her as well, So we're going to remember
the adult in this. I mean, unfortunately, there are toxic
relationships out there. Wouldn't it be nice if there wasn't,
But one hundred percent the kids are picking it up,
and in the younger they are, the more impact it
can have on them, and the longer they go through it.
(22:18):
And we can say as much as we want, but
it's the way they feel, it's where their brain, body,
their stress response system is reacting that we actually have
to be aware of.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Hey, what advice would you have to people in terms
of minimizing the impact on kids, because you can't pretend
it's not happening if you're splitting up, obviously, but what
can parents do to mollify the impact of a separation?
Are there any particular thoughts you have on that.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, Like, what we're trying to do is help them
understand what's happening. And what's fascinating is, especially if they're
younger kids, is the way they think now, especially under
I'd say under three and a half four, they really
don't have theory of mind, which means they think everything
is about them. They have no ability to get into
somebody else's shoes. So under that age, anything you're doing,
(23:12):
anything that's happening, they assume it's because of them. And
so that's really massive for especially a young kid. And
so either talking to them, but usually it's not you
in the family that can talk to them. It's either
someone that could be an auntie, uncle, or someone at
school or someone at candy try and getting people to
check to them and understand how the young person, no
(23:33):
matter what age, even when they're up to adolescent, how
they are seeing it. Because to understand how they are
seeing it means we can work back and answer their
questions because don't assume they are understanding it this fame
way you are.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Well.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Actually, my next question is would be how much can
you explain to kids of that age though, I mean
how effective can explaining be in terms of happening they
can understand.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
This is for all conversations where the kids difficult conversations,
sensitive conversations. It's called serve and return. It's the easiest
thing to remember. You give them a little bit and
then you wait for them to come back to you.
So if you said something like you know, me and
daddy are thinking about splitting up and or you know,
like we're having some trouble and then you just leave it.
(24:19):
And if the kid goes, oh why or yeah, and
that interested maybe a little bit more. But if they go, oh,
can we go to bath with my toys?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Now?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
You know, like give them a little bit, see what
they respond to, then a little bit more, but serve
and return, let them serve it up and let them
leave the way a lot more rather than you're just
going on for half an hour and digging deep. Really
just feel your way through that conversation and then let
them come back to you when they need to next
time sort of thing. So try and let them lead
(24:48):
it a lot more, which is quite difficult, but that's
the most effective way of making sure you're letting them
hear what they need to hear.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Is there a danger that maybe they don't have any questions,
but I mean they do they what if they are
worried that it's all about them, that's something they've done,
is why dad's leaving or Mum's leaving? I mean, they
will they ask that question, because if they don't, you've
still got to address it, don't you.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, and when they're young, they potentially won't. They just
know it's them. They're not even they're not even unsure,
you know. Sometimes what I'm saying is in their way
of processing things then and then if they get older,
you can sometimes then they'll say, was it my fault?
We could talk to them, but play therapy, but keeping
kids in a space where they feel as safe as possible.
(25:33):
So if you are having difficult times, making sure you
spend some time, I don't know, going out for a
walk with them to the playground and just really relaxing
with them and really connecting with them so they still
have that sense of safety with you, which can counteract
when they're feeling a little bit unsure when maybe the
couple was back to get you know, in the same room,
but trying to get as much safety and they're getting
(25:56):
them off to the aunties, the uncles, the friends places
sometimes for a bitter you know, downtime and relaxation in
their body, brain, body system, those sorts of things. But
it's a real minefield.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Well it's a minefield. That's why this next text is
a slightly different one as well. It says high Tim
and Catherine, unless there is something major going on, like
one partner becomes an addict or abuse of Yes, you
should stay together for the children and for society. One
of the reasons for people having money problems and a
housing shortage is all the split families in the same
amount of money having to support two households rather than
(26:31):
one plus. If you don't sort out your communication problems
when together, or if one of you is resentful, it
will cause still cause stress for the kids when you separate,
as you will both still be in others' lives. Regards Tracy,
what do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah, and Tracy's can That's a good point from Tracy's point,
But we've also got other people. We had your other caller,
the lady with the five kids, you know that've worke
did that. Well, what I think we need to do
is not and you've said it already multiple times, does
not judge other people's situations. I don't think we walk
away for something just because we're having a little bit
of a bad day. But definitely, if you're not happy
(27:11):
in that space and you're not enjoying being and there
is that resentment that's building up, the kids will pick
it up. So I think people it's everybody's individual journey,
but we do need to think a bit more. Put
the kids in the forefront if we can, and get
helps your friends, talk to specialists, all of that sort
(27:32):
of stuff. It's get mediation, get counseling if you can.
If it works, do what you can to try and
keep it healthy.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
The rule of thumb I've come up with is that
what I would say that it would be. Look, you know,
when you're single, you don't have kids. I mean, you're
in a relationship. Relationships, maybe they come and grow a
bit more easier, more easily. And the only thoughts I
have is if you do have a family, then just
make sure that you are making the decision for the
(28:02):
right reasons. In other words, you know, when you're in
your early twenties and you have a relationship and then
maybe the flame fades, then you break up and no harm,
no foul sort of thing. But I just have a
sense that most people who have children, if they are
going to separate, at least to themselves to make sure
that that is the right course of action, you know
(28:23):
what I mean As opposed to we should stay together
for the kids, that's not the question you should. But
if you are going to split up, work out that
that's what you need to do in a serious, sort
of considered way, rather than just like, oh, you know,
I quite fancy a personal trainer. Must be time to get.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Divorced, and one hundred percent once when you have kids,
and that's I suppose it goes back to before you
have kids. You've got to make that decision because this
is not all about you anymore. This is you're not
in the fullfront anymore. The kids are in the fullfront.
And I do think people should and again everyone's individual,
but you should hold on to those relationships a little
(29:02):
bit longer if you've got kids than when you don't.
Exactly as you've just said, sorry.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
For my I'm sorry for my crude sort of description
of a reason for breaking up being the fancy in
your personal exactly. I thought I thought you were quite
there for a second, because you switched your microphone off
for a chuckle before you answered, anyway, Hey, just.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Thinking I've got a female personal trainer, so I'm guessing,
and she's in a pretty happy relationship, so I don't
think that's going to happen. No, I was just thinking, let's.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Not delve into these things, too much, too much sincerity
on that one. Anyway. It is twenty one minutes to
Sex News Talks and be if you've got some thoughts
on it. If you've been through separation of divorce, did kids?
This is another way of asking the question, did the
fact that you had children together change the way you
thought about whether you should get divorced, separated or not?
(29:49):
Give us a call on oh, eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty, We'd love you calls. It's twenty one minutes
to six News Talks. He'd be Yes News Talks. He'd
be Tim Beverage with Catherine Burkett, and we're talking about
should you stay together for the kids or on you know?
Or how do kids change the decision to it up
or to stay together? Catherine, I've got a text here,
(30:09):
which is I've heard that. I've heard of this a
few times. I know a family, this person says, who
stayed together for four years after cell separation. So the
parents lived in the same house but in two separate
bedrooms until the youngest moved off to go to university.
No fighting or anything, that's just the decision they made. See,
that's a that's a weird one. For me, what do
(30:30):
you reckon?
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I've actually got a very good friend when it's got
that separator, but they sort of keep together on you know,
speaking hangings and they hang out a lot, like my
mate stays over there on weekends and stuff like that.
And look, that's their decision, you know, like, and that's
if they want to do that. I mean, I personally
think you're putting your own life on pause, but that
could be because your kids are the most important thing,
(30:53):
and I think amazing in that space. So if that,
if that's good for you, then that's great. But if
it's not, and it's making you resentful, and the kids
are going to pick it up, do you see? So
it's all of that stuff. Again, let's not judge, let's
not decide what is best for us. But if they
are doing it and they are enjoying it and that's
good for them, then carry on. If it's good for
(31:13):
the kids and it's good for you, carry on.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I guess is it a question around here? Another text
which is well, I'll read the text out, but to
be obviously, what the question is it says is, well,
it's a question as well. Is there a certain age
range that can affect the kid's mentality on when to
split up with your partner, like is it under ten.
I've always said to my wife, no matter what happens,
I'll be around together until they are eighteen, as I
(31:37):
think we have responsibility as parents. But it does raise
that question, Catherine, is to what are the most vulnerable
ages for kids to deal with separation?
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, well, like I said, if we're talking neuroscience, under
that three and a half four, before they've got theory
of mind, they will always think it's about them. But
even then if you split before then that's about being
really honest and really straight up with them in those spaces,
but also caring on those conversations when they can have
theory of mind later on in their life to revisit it.
(32:09):
But in the teenage years, it's really confusing for our
kids and they're going through a lot of changes identifying
their own selves of identifying their future, so that can
be a little bit more difficult for them. But again,
you staying together and being really anti and against each
other and the household being really nervy is going to
(32:29):
be worse. So but what is really important is at
all ages, at all spaces, both parents stay in touch
with the young people, let the kids talk to them
and be honest with their answers. That would be the
ultimate outcome. So there would be different impacts on people
at different ages and different personalities. When I still remember
(32:52):
my son really struggled with not having a mom and
a dad and you know, rather than just me, whereas
my daughter didn't seem to care that I was a
single parent most of my life. But I think my
son really struggled with it just in his personality, just
in who he was. So we've also got to take
those things into account, not just ages, but their personalities
as well.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
What age are you more I mean, obviously, if you're
thirty years old and you and your parents break up,
you know, in their sixties or seventies, you're probably much
more emotionally equipped to deal with it than if you
were five years old. But is there an age where
children are more robust and worldly in a way that
they can understand it without feeling personally as devastated as
(33:35):
they might otherwise be.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Went into brain stuff around about fifteen sixteen, maybe a
little bit older for some kids, that's when they were
able to truly see the future. They're still struggling to
put themselves into that future picture perfectly, but they can
do it much better. So I would say even before then,
it's quite hard for kids to really envision the whole
(34:02):
understanding of what's going on through a breakoup. Even then
they would struggle. But it's about talking to them and
us some questions. But yeah, we can't really see the future,
really understand what a long term outcome can be till
we're about fifteen, sixteen, maybe a couple of years older.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, that's fascinating. It was a fascinating sort of area
to explore. I'm surprised we actually haven't done it before
on the Parents Squad actually just the notion of divorcing
kids and all that sort of thing. But there we go.
We've ticked that one off. Hey Calatherine, thanks so much
for your time. You're enjoying labor weekends somewhere exotic, I gather.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, just got over to Great Barry Island, which is
really lovely. I'm working here on Tuesdays, so I flew
over a little bit early, so I'm off to do
some walking and exploring tomorrow and the next day, so
really look forward to it.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Hey Clitherine, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Absolutely, Take care, No.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Good bye BYEP. That wraps the parent Squad for this weekend.
By the way, if you want to go back and
listen to any of our previous hours, then you can
do so by going to Newstalk said, Eat It Coated
and Z or iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective and
away you go. We get each hour loaded up pretty quickly.
My producer Tyra likes to prize herself on like hours
(35:16):
finished thirty seconds. Way, we're up, something like that. She
would give me it should be should be waving at
me saying no, I don't say that. If she wasn't,
so I must be right. We'll be back in a
just moment to wrap sport with Nathan Limbs with US
News Talk SIDB. For more from the Weekend Collective. Listen
live to News Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Is coming.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Please welcome funis.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Don't Lenythings appearing?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yes, welcome back or welcome into the Weekend Collective. If
you just joined us on tim Beverage and don't forget
the sports rap shortly before Sex with Nathan Lynn will
be care giving ourselves an update on what's going on
with the Auckland FC match. But right now this is
the Parents Squad where we cover all things parenting and
we'd love you to join us with your thoughts, you
comments are and all your experience on eight hundred and
(01:03):
eighty ten eighty and as I say, you can text
on nineteen nine two. Hey, just to quick note, I
did get quite a few texts very last minute on
the one roof during the one Roof shown whether that
was something where the system was a bit slow passing
them on, but if I didn't we there were some
questions I actually would have loved to throw to our guests,
but for some reason they didn't come through till late.
So my apologies are there. But do text in early
(01:26):
if you want to, or call in early if you
want to have your say. On eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty and as I say, text nine two nine two,
and the question we're going to have a chat with
to chat about today is one of those big questions
that a lot of families would face, and it's one
that you know people, it's a difficult one to a
(01:48):
difficult one to actually discuss with people. In a way,
it's it's a loaded issue because people have strong opinions
one way or the other sometimes, and it's the question
of should parents stay together for the sake of the kids?
Now I threw this question out, well, I didn't throw
(02:10):
it out. I was just talking with my producer about
the questions should we stay together for the kids? And
one of the voices from the newsroom called out, gosh,
I wish my parents had split up before the kids,
so I had split up instead of staying together for us.
So they felt that it was a bad idea for them.
And look, I guess, you know, is it ever really
(02:31):
the right call? But sometimes there's the other way of
thinking about it is that there was a time when
divorce became well, it became more permissible. I guess when
it was a time when people felt they had to
stand bad relationships. Now Obviously, if you're in a relationship
(02:52):
with cruelty or violence or anything, obviously that's a no brainer.
But then there might be the argument that sometimes people
split up, they take the same problems to the next
relationship and get divorced again. I mean, so should they
have tried made it work? But is there a point
where you know, maybe you should stay together, because ideally
(03:14):
you don't really want to get divorced while your kids
are still living with you. I don't know. I'm together
with my wife. It's not something we would ever entertain anyway,
because it's well for obvious reasons. But is if you
are in a relationship which were you're having your waxing
and waning, should you actually make an effort to stay
together for the kids? Our eight hundred eighty ten eighty
(03:36):
Have you stayed together for the kids? Did your parents
split up? Or did your parents stay together when in
fact you knew that they had got sick of each
other and you wish that maybe in hindsight, that they
had just split up and you would have dealt with
it at the time. Anyway, I'm not sure if I've
put those questions in the most concise manner, But to
help us wide our way through this issue. She's a
(03:57):
new neuroscience educator from Engaged Training and it's Katherine burkeertt Kido. Catherine,
how are you going?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I'm doing good? Thank you?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Uh, what's what's your hot Do you have a hot
take on this one? Because when you throw it, when
I throw it out to people or just saytion people
stay together for the sake of the kids, you often
get quite an instant reaction from people and then they
deal with the nuances. What's your thoughts on it?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah? So remember I'm going to answer like a neuroscientist
because there's so much more to this than sort of
the kids. Right, there's all the adults involved in their feelings.
But if you're asking me on behalf of the kids,
what we have to calculate is the amount of stress
that they're going to feel in high stress, not not
(04:45):
middle stress. I mean everyone goes through middle stress. So
we're really thinking if the parents stay together, is there
going to be more high stress on the young people
or if they separate, and either of those could be
the same level. Do you see? So I haven't got
the answer of yes you should, no you shouldn't. It's
whether you are creating really high, sort of more intolerable
(05:07):
stress for the kids.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Okay, So if the answer is that a divorce is
going to cause a high or intolerable tolerable, god, I
can't even say it intolerable level of stress. I mean,
how do you? I mean, how do couples navigate this?
And the reason I'm I'm going to probably hesitate a
lot during the course of this conversation is because you
(05:31):
don't know anyone's individual circumstances, and people love to judge,
and you don't want to judge either, And so because
it is an area where it is very difficult to
comment on any individual circumstance, isn't it absolutely?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
And that's why. And I'm I'm the last person who's
a relationship judge. But I've seen a lot of people
go through splits where the kids. I mean, obviously they're
always going to be stressed. Okay, there's always going to
be negatives, But the point is is it intolerable?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Not?
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Is it? Are they really confused? So a lot of
what has to happen is we have to be honest
with the young people to the point not to bring
them into all of the details, but to be honest,
not lying. Now we're going to be fine. We're staying together.
Everybody loves each other. Next minute they're broken up. Well,
then the young person doesn't trust relationships. So it's all
(06:25):
about thinking what level of understanding is my kid's got,
what level of stress. It's really hard because at this stage,
if the parents are themselves in really high stress, one
of the hardest things to do is to think what
can I do to keep my kids out of stress? So,
you know, not being too judge, it's really really hard,
but we've got to think what can we do to
(06:47):
prepare the kids as much as possible yet to have
them knowing what's happening. So, but when you yourself are
in the stress response, it makes it all that much harder, right,
So another really positive thing is making sure you've got
other fun around are the friends. If you're really upset,
really stress, try and get them to go to other
people's places where they can have a little bit of
less stress around them. Maybe those sort of tactics are
(07:09):
really useful.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I guess I'm thinking of situations where people think and
depending on when you got married and what age and
all that sort of thing, but when when couples. Maybe
they're not arguing, they get on fine, but maybe that
you know, it's not honeymoon time, and are there times
when you actually you would think whether it's worth parents
(07:30):
thinking Okay, look, you know, maybe we're not in the
throes of passionate love that we might have been when
we first met or for the first few years, but
it would those be times when you should actually say, okay,
we're right, that's all well and good, but you know,
we should actually consider what the impact would be on
our kids.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, I've seen couples do it amazingly, especially if they
are at that stage.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
So if there's not animosity when you're in a relationship,
it's more likely you can split without animosity, and you
can be really fear with the kids, so the kids
don't become those pinaballs between you. Those kids don't become
the you know, the employee to get each other. They
don't have to go through family caught, they negotiate well.
In those cases, it's more likely you're not going to
(08:18):
create high ends of stress for the young people if
you are. You know, if there's no animosity in the relationship,
it's more likely you can If you wanted to end it.
You can end it without animosity.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So what are the if you are going to I mean,
we'd love your cause, by the way, but in fact
we're not. Catherine and I are not going to suddenly
get a hot take that you should stay together for
the sake of the kids. The only thing I would
the only thing I would say with with couples sometimes
who where things have maybe got not so exciting, is
I don't think your first porter call should be divorced.
I think your first porter call should be well, hang
(08:52):
on a minute, is there something we can do to
work on the relationship where we can get that sense
that marriage can be great again? Because I mean, that's
and look, I'm sure couples go through that all the time,
don't they.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Really, I know this wasn't the subject originally, but it's
a really fantastic subject to learn, And there's a really
amazing book if anybody was interested in this subject. It's
called Actually Sex at Dawn, but subheading is the evolution
of monogamy and understanding relationships and understanding attraction. And one
of the really major things I took from it is
(09:28):
when we become really, really comfortable with each other really
really comfortable with each other. Our brains actually start to
and remember this is neurological, this is all subconscious stuff.
We start to see each other pretty much as siblings,
you know, because we can anticipate each other's moves, we
know what each other's going to do. So the brains
actually starts to be unattracted sexually to someone because of
(09:52):
that sibling sort of feeling, that really really familiarity. I mean,
you've seen it in couples and they split up and
one gets a haircut, or one changes or starts dressing differently,
and then all of a sudden they've met up again,
and there's the attraction back. It's the familiarity, and you've
got to be really careful of And again I'm doing
it from a neuroscience it's perspectives though. Yeah, yeah, really fascinating,
(10:15):
and you do you become really really comfortable with each other,
and the brain actually starts turning off attraction because you
shouldn't be attracted to someone who's that familiar to you
if you can understand the biology around.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah. And actually when we discussed this, actually as my
producer Tire who suggested this topic. But it's been one
of those things where look, I did a little bit
of family law years and years ago, but you would
often see people who had I think it's about knowing
yourself as well. But you get people who will leave
(10:51):
a relationship because that's sort of they're missing the fizz
of first love and all that sort of thing. And
then they establish another relationship and it goes through the
same pattern, and they've never addressed the problems in their
own expectations, and so they go from one relationship to
another that fails because they still haven't addressed with the
problem of it with their own stuff, you know what
(11:11):
I mean. And they take their problems to the next relationship,
same result, next relationship, same result, and it's like, maybe
you should have stuck with the first one. And that's
why the question comes up, especially if there are kids involved.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
One hundred percent and yes, you're one hundred pcent right
taking the problems. But one of the other things, and
this is another thing we talk a lot about when
we talk about online experiences and learning from that sort
of stuff, is the expectations. I mean, who watches chick
flicks and they fall in love and there's sparkles and whatever,
and then for the rest of their lives they're happy.
I mean, honestly, if that's what you're expecting, then clearly
(11:46):
you're going to be disappointed in a relationship because no
relationship literally stays with that spark, you know, for years
and years and years. It can come and go and
things happen. So it's also the expectation, isn't it And
if you realize, And that's why I think that book
was really fascinating for me. Sex at Dawn, sexit Dawn.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, all the absence of it.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
I know, it's how to get it back. I guess
if you if you understand the evolution of monogamy, it's
just about understanding our biology and understanding those the movies
and the songs. It's not how it happens. It's not
you get married and live happily ever after it it's
it's it's hard work we have to consciously work out
through our way through long term relationships because it's not
(12:30):
naturally bilogical to be in long term relationships. But it's
definitely rewarding, but it's also needs a bit of hard work.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Actually reminds me that that the Sex and Dawn topic
reminds me of there's a scene in ted Lasso with
one of the characters, Nate, who ends up with a
girlfriend who he thinks is completely out of his leg
and when they wake up the next morning, he gives
her a kiss good morning, and she goes, have you
just have you? Have you? Have you brushed your teeth? Yeah?
I was thinking those days when you brush your teeth
before your partner wake up, and then you know a
(13:00):
few years later it's like, oh, I'll just anyway, Hey, look,
we'd love your cause on this it's it's about whether
you think, I mean, did you stay together for the
sake of the kids, or maybe the broader question is
for you I eight hundred eighty ten eighty is how
much effort should you make to keep your relationship going
because there are kids involved? Did you do it? Do
(13:21):
you wish you had? Do you wish your parents had
or hadn't? I eight hundred eighty ten eighty Text nine
to nine two. Let's go to the calls. Chris Solo, Hi,
how are you good? Thanks? How you doing good?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Good? Yeah, I'm just saying that. You know, my first
husband and I broke up, Yeah, after twelve years, and
he took the boys like talk the girls.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
But we both remarried and we had a fabulous relationship
with and we did with our new partners, and our
kids didn't suffer. They knew they could stay with me
or stay with him if they wanted to, you know,
the holidays and all that. But it's not always bad.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
How did you manage that when you did separate.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Well, it was we explained to the kids. We were
never in ever enemies. We just sort of fell out.
We just had a lot of differences, but you know,
we remained friends. Yeah, And I think that's the main thing.
You don't have to become enemies. You have your differences,
(14:32):
but apart from that, you know you can just stay friends.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Good on you, it's no biggie.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Well, I think it's as big as you make it
in a way, isn't it, Because of course the problem
is I mean, and we've all seen toxic relationships where
people are out to destroy each other, and I think
it's tragic when the kids are brought up with that.
It's just like the one thing I'd employ anyone when
they're splitting up, for God's sake, don't make your kids
pawns in this or weapons.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Exactly right. You grow up and just understand, you know,
what you're doing to your heads because it's not their fault.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
What's the dynamic then, is it? Are you like one
big extended family sort of thing where you will get on?
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Oh we were. This happened years ago, he has. I've
lost two husbands since then. I've lost him and I've
lost my second husband and I live by myself now.
But my kids I talk to them every week. Got
four in Australia and one in Auckland. And they're fabulous,
(15:33):
you know. They they understand and it's all good.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
How did you go around? You can jump in by
the way, Catherine, you're over on Great Barry Island joining us.
But how did you go around dealing with you said
he took the boys, you took the girls? Is that right?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
How did that come about? Was that just a.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Natural Well that was law back in the seventies.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, oh that was sort of the way it was expected.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah, pretty much. Yes, Yeah, it was tough. You know,
I would have taken them all, yeah, you know, really
I just couldn't. It's just the law back there. It's
obviously changed, thank god since then.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Okay, so that was dictated, Yeah, but it worked out
all right luckily.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Okay, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Thanks for that, Chris. I've just got to check. Yeah, okay,
thanks for your call. I just got to check that
Catherine's there because we have we have had a you've
got any comment there, Katherine.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I was just listening. You were doing a great job.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
It sorry because I was thinking that maybe you dropped
off the line, so I was filling in and I
wouldn't shut up.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
No, but it's exactly right, right, But let's be real,
and I mean we're going across a couple of topics here, Okay,
So when you're talking about the kids, she could put
the kids at the forefront, which is beautiful, and it's
I'm saying splitting up doesn't have to be an issue.
But it's usually not an issue if there's an amicable breakout.
But when it's one partner's really done the dirty on
(17:06):
the other or that that's really hard and then that
person's in stress and they sometimes do fight back, and
the young people do get pulled into that porn situation,
and it's so hard, and it's actually about a lot
of people around being brave enough to step in to
help out all of those sorts of things. So it
is fine. We can do it really amicably. Like I've
said that, we can see it done really well, but
(17:29):
unfortunately it's not always that easy.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
No, you're right, yeah, look, hey, look when need you
to take a quick break, we'll come back and just
to take eight hundred and eighty ten eighty and look.
While the opening question we asked was should you stay
together for the kids, the broader question is if you
have or if you have split up, or whether you've
been a child in a relationship that broke up, what
advice you know, how should you go about doing that
(17:52):
to minimize the trauma for your children? Give us a
call on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text nine
two nine two. We'll be back in just a moment.
It's come out to twenty five past five s. Newstalk said,
b we're talking divorced separation. Should you stay together for
the sake of the kids and all? How should you
manage it as well? And we're with Engaged Training neuroscience
(18:13):
educator Katherine Burkett say, yesterday, just before we go to
Peter next Carlo, there's a couple of some really interesting
texts that people have taken the trouble to write some
significant sort of opinions on this. One says here, if
children are the band aid to a failing relationship, just
pull the pen already. Children are not stupid. They pick
up on the bad vibes. I know we did when
(18:35):
mum and dad were struggling before they ultimately separated and divorce,
says Matt. Actually, Katherine, I've heard that quite a few times,
that when people when the parents have told their kids,
the kids have almost been relieved.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, well, like there's just all of that undercurrent stuff
that kids are one hundred percent picking up, and especially
if it's over long term, it's the new reception, our
scanning for safety. We pick it up and they're not silly,
so it makes them significantly more unsafe than you're actually
telling them the truth that's saying. It's keeping them sort
of being honest with them is really important, and anyone
(19:13):
who's gone through it will exactly as you've stated, will
know that.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, it looks to pet well, by the way, the
people have written some ticks, so I'll definitely get onto
as many as I can, but we'll go to Pete first.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Cat I Pete were letting me tired to both of
you in Malin. Hi. Thanks, well, Hi, I just want
to say, you know, when it comes to divorces and separations,
in some instances, I don't say in all instances, but
in some instance a separation is what it's called for,
(19:49):
especially when these extreme tensions from both partners vibrating and
you've got the kids in right head, the one kid.
But just give me a brief description of my pan
my family. My mum and dad got divorced and I
was nine, and my mom got custody in both me
and my brother. And then when it came to my tune,
(20:12):
I got divorced and I took custody in my then
four year old son. He's really fallen there by the way.
And when my son, well he didn't get married, but
he separated and he got cassody of my grandson when
he was the age of three. So we've had experience
(20:32):
in the business of splitting out just as you could
just a probably humorous look stut all negative. In some
cases the separations called war for all divorce, you know, see,
I don't and maybe one of the partners may have
to move out.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's certainly a chain of events, isn't it, Catherine.
I don't know what to add to what Pete said, But.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Those experiences, right, they're all different, They're all we've got
to do the right thing, that we've got to keep
the kids in as much as we can keep the
kids in the center. But thinking how are they feeling,
you know, not going, oh, we'll stay together because of them,
because is that actually their right idea? What is going
to cause the least over activating stress for them is
really what we're trying to establish.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Here's another text high time. I was in a toxic
relationship for sixteen years. I had five children under fourteen.
We were all traumatized. I left and parented on my own.
My adult children have all had struggles, and three are
unable to deal with their father's drinking and abusive behavior.
My dearest wish is that I didn't leave earlier, but
stayed for the children, which was a grave mistake. My
(21:45):
two youngest, who have spent most of their lives with me,
are happier than the older ones, cheers Mary, Which intuitively
makes sense, isn't it Obviously continuing in a toxic relationship
and just had a bad effect on the children That witnessed.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
It, Catherine, Oh, one hundred percent. One hundred percent and
obviously on her as well, So we're going to remember
the adult in this. I mean, unfortunately, there are toxic
relationships out there. Wouldn't it be nice if there wasn't,
But one hundred percent the kids are picking it up,
and in the younger they are, the more impact it
can have on them, and the longer they go through it.
(22:18):
And we can say as much as we want, but
it's the way they feel, it's where their brain, body,
their stress response system is reacting that we actually have
to be aware of.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Hey, what advice would you have to people in terms
of minimizing the impact on kids, because you can't pretend
it's not happening if you're splitting up, obviously, but what
can parents do to mollify the impact of a separation?
Are there any particular thoughts you have on that.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, Like, what we're trying to do is help them
understand what's happening. And what's fascinating is, especially if they're
younger kids, is the way they think now, especially under
I'd say under three and a half four, they really
don't have theory of mind, which means they think everything
is about them. They have no ability to get into
somebody else's shoes. So under that age, anything you're doing,
(23:12):
anything that's happening, they assume it's because of them. And
so that's really massive for especially a young kid. And
so either talking to them, but usually it's not you
in the family that can talk to them. It's either
someone that could be an auntie, uncle, or someone at
school or someone at candy try and getting people to
check to them and understand how the young person, no
(23:33):
matter what age, even when they're up to adolescent, how
they are seeing it. Because to understand how they are
seeing it means we can work back and answer their
questions because don't assume they are understanding it this fame
way you are.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Well.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Actually, my next question is would be how much can
you explain to kids of that age though, I mean
how effective can explaining be in terms of happening they
can understand.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
This is for all conversations where the kids difficult conversations,
sensitive conversations. It's called serve and return. It's the easiest
thing to remember. You give them a little bit and
then you wait for them to come back to you.
So if you said something like you know, me and
daddy are thinking about splitting up and or you know,
like we're having some trouble and then you just leave it.
(24:19):
And if the kid goes, oh why or yeah, and
that interested maybe a little bit more. But if they go, oh,
can we go to bath with my toys?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Now?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
You know, like give them a little bit, see what
they respond to, then a little bit more, but serve
and return, let them serve it up and let them
leave the way a lot more rather than you're just
going on for half an hour and digging deep. Really
just feel your way through that conversation and then let
them come back to you when they need to next
time sort of thing. So try and let them lead
(24:48):
it a lot more, which is quite difficult, but that's
the most effective way of making sure you're letting them
hear what they need to hear.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Is there a danger that maybe they don't have any questions,
but I mean they do they what if they are
worried that it's all about them, that's something they've done,
is why dad's leaving or Mum's leaving? I mean, they
will they ask that question, because if they don't, you've
still got to address it, don't you.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, and when they're young, they potentially won't. They just
know it's them. They're not even they're not even unsure,
you know. Sometimes what I'm saying is in their way
of processing things then and then if they get older,
you can sometimes then they'll say, was it my fault?
We could talk to them, but play therapy, but keeping
kids in a space where they feel as safe as possible.
(25:33):
So if you are having difficult times, making sure you
spend some time, I don't know, going out for a
walk with them to the playground and just really relaxing
with them and really connecting with them so they still
have that sense of safety with you, which can counteract
when they're feeling a little bit unsure when maybe the
couple was back to get you know, in the same room,
but trying to get as much safety and they're getting
(25:56):
them off to the aunties, the uncles, the friends places
sometimes for a bitter you know, downtime and relaxation in
their body, brain, body system, those sorts of things. But
it's a real minefield.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Well it's a minefield. That's why this next text is
a slightly different one as well. It says high Tim
and Catherine, unless there is something major going on, like
one partner becomes an addict or abuse of Yes, you
should stay together for the children and for society. One
of the reasons for people having money problems and a
housing shortage is all the split families in the same
amount of money having to support two households rather than
(26:31):
one plus. If you don't sort out your communication problems
when together, or if one of you is resentful, it
will cause still cause stress for the kids when you separate,
as you will both still be in others' lives. Regards Tracy,
what do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah, and Tracy's can That's a good point from Tracy's point,
But we've also got other people. We had your other caller,
the lady with the five kids, you know that've worke
did that. Well, what I think we need to do
is not and you've said it already multiple times, does
not judge other people's situations. I don't think we walk
away for something just because we're having a little bit
of a bad day. But definitely, if you're not happy
(27:11):
in that space and you're not enjoying being and there
is that resentment that's building up, the kids will pick
it up. So I think people it's everybody's individual journey,
but we do need to think a bit more. Put
the kids in the forefront if we can, and get
helps your friends, talk to specialists, all of that sort
(27:32):
of stuff. It's get mediation, get counseling if you can.
If it works, do what you can to try and
keep it healthy.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
The rule of thumb I've come up with is that
what I would say that it would be. Look, you know,
when you're single, you don't have kids. I mean, you're
in a relationship. Relationships, maybe they come and grow a
bit more easier, more easily. And the only thoughts I
have is if you do have a family, then just
make sure that you are making the decision for the
(28:02):
right reasons. In other words, you know, when you're in
your early twenties and you have a relationship and then
maybe the flame fades, then you break up and no harm,
no foul sort of thing. But I just have a
sense that most people who have children, if they are
going to separate, at least to themselves to make sure
that that is the right course of action, you know
(28:23):
what I mean As opposed to we should stay together
for the kids, that's not the question you should. But
if you are going to split up, work out that
that's what you need to do in a serious, sort
of considered way, rather than just like, oh, you know,
I quite fancy a personal trainer. Must be time to get.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Divorced, and one hundred percent once when you have kids,
and that's I suppose it goes back to before you
have kids. You've got to make that decision because this
is not all about you anymore. This is you're not
in the fullfront anymore. The kids are in the fullfront.
And I do think people should and again everyone's individual,
but you should hold on to those relationships a little
(29:02):
bit longer if you've got kids than when you don't.
Exactly as you've just said, sorry.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
For my I'm sorry for my crude sort of description
of a reason for breaking up being the fancy in
your personal exactly. I thought I thought you were quite
there for a second, because you switched your microphone off
for a chuckle before you answered, anyway, Hey, just.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Thinking I've got a female personal trainer, so I'm guessing,
and she's in a pretty happy relationship, so I don't
think that's going to happen. No, I was just thinking, let's.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Not delve into these things, too much, too much sincerity
on that one. Anyway. It is twenty one minutes to
Sex News Talks and be if you've got some thoughts
on it. If you've been through separation of divorce, did kids?
This is another way of asking the question, did the
fact that you had children together change the way you
thought about whether you should get divorced, separated or not?
(29:49):
Give us a call on oh, eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty, We'd love you calls. It's twenty one minutes
to six News Talks. He'd be Yes News Talks. He'd
be Tim Beverage with Catherine Burkett, and we're talking about
should you stay together for the kids or on you know?
Or how do kids change the decision to it up
or to stay together? Catherine, I've got a text here,
(30:09):
which is I've heard that. I've heard of this a
few times. I know a family, this person says, who
stayed together for four years after cell separation. So the
parents lived in the same house but in two separate
bedrooms until the youngest moved off to go to university.
No fighting or anything, that's just the decision they made. See,
that's a that's a weird one. For me, what do
(30:30):
you reckon?
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I've actually got a very good friend when it's got
that separator, but they sort of keep together on you know,
speaking hangings and they hang out a lot, like my
mate stays over there on weekends and stuff like that.
And look, that's their decision, you know, like, and that's
if they want to do that. I mean, I personally
think you're putting your own life on pause, but that
could be because your kids are the most important thing,
(30:53):
and I think amazing in that space. So if that,
if that's good for you, then that's great. But if
it's not, and it's making you resentful, and the kids
are going to pick it up, do you see? So
it's all of that stuff. Again, let's not judge, let's
not decide what is best for us. But if they
are doing it and they are enjoying it and that's
good for them, then carry on. If it's good for
(31:13):
the kids and it's good for you, carry on.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I guess is it a question around here? Another text
which is well, I'll read the text out, but to
be obviously, what the question is it says is, well,
it's a question as well. Is there a certain age
range that can affect the kid's mentality on when to
split up with your partner, like is it under ten.
I've always said to my wife, no matter what happens,
I'll be around together until they are eighteen, as I
(31:37):
think we have responsibility as parents. But it does raise
that question, Catherine, is to what are the most vulnerable
ages for kids to deal with separation?
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, well, like I said, if we're talking neuroscience, under
that three and a half four, before they've got theory
of mind, they will always think it's about them. But
even then if you split before then that's about being
really honest and really straight up with them in those spaces,
but also caring on those conversations when they can have
theory of mind later on in their life to revisit it.
(32:09):
But in the teenage years, it's really confusing for our
kids and they're going through a lot of changes identifying
their own selves of identifying their future, so that can
be a little bit more difficult for them. But again,
you staying together and being really anti and against each
other and the household being really nervy is going to
(32:29):
be worse. So but what is really important is at
all ages, at all spaces, both parents stay in touch
with the young people, let the kids talk to them
and be honest with their answers. That would be the
ultimate outcome. So there would be different impacts on people
at different ages and different personalities. When I still remember
(32:52):
my son really struggled with not having a mom and
a dad and you know, rather than just me, whereas
my daughter didn't seem to care that I was a
single parent most of my life. But I think my
son really struggled with it just in his personality, just
in who he was. So we've also got to take
those things into account, not just ages, but their personalities
as well.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
What age are you more I mean, obviously, if you're
thirty years old and you and your parents break up,
you know, in their sixties or seventies, you're probably much
more emotionally equipped to deal with it than if you
were five years old. But is there an age where
children are more robust and worldly in a way that
they can understand it without feeling personally as devastated as
(33:35):
they might otherwise be.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Went into brain stuff around about fifteen sixteen, maybe a
little bit older for some kids, that's when they were
able to truly see the future. They're still struggling to
put themselves into that future picture perfectly, but they can
do it much better. So I would say even before then,
it's quite hard for kids to really envision the whole
(34:02):
understanding of what's going on through a breakoup. Even then
they would struggle. But it's about talking to them and
us some questions. But yeah, we can't really see the future,
really understand what a long term outcome can be till
we're about fifteen, sixteen, maybe a couple of years older.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, that's fascinating. It was a fascinating sort of area
to explore. I'm surprised we actually haven't done it before
on the Parents Squad actually just the notion of divorcing
kids and all that sort of thing. But there we go.
We've ticked that one off. Hey Calatherine, thanks so much
for your time. You're enjoying labor weekends somewhere exotic, I gather.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, just got over to Great Barry Island, which is
really lovely. I'm working here on Tuesdays, so I flew
over a little bit early, so I'm off to do
some walking and exploring tomorrow and the next day, so
really look forward to it.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Hey Clitherine, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Absolutely, Take care, No.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Good bye BYEP. That wraps the parent Squad for this weekend.
By the way, if you want to go back and
listen to any of our previous hours, then you can
do so by going to Newstalk said, Eat It Coated
and Z or iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective and
away you go. We get each hour loaded up pretty quickly.
My producer Tyra likes to prize herself on like hours
(35:16):
finished thirty seconds. Way, we're up, something like that. She
would give me it should be should be waving at
me saying no, I don't say that. If she wasn't,
so I must be right. We'll be back in a
just moment to wrap sport with Nathan Limbs with US
News Talk SIDB. For more from the Weekend Collective. Listen
live to News Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or
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