August 16, 2025 • 34 mins
The first 1,000 days are the most important in any child's life - to set the foundation for a well-rounded and stable adulthood.
A key part of those first 1,000 days is early attachment, the importance of forming healthy attachments, and what that means for children as they grow up.
Nathan Wallis is a neuroscience educator and he joins to discuss early attachment.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks dB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Yes, welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective. If your
has just joined us this and the Parents Squad, we
want your calls on O eight one hundred and eighty
ten to eighty and for the start of this hour,
we're going to have a chat about the basically forming
attachment to your child. They say the first thousand days
are the most important in any child's life to set
the foundation for well rounded and stable life, and a
(00:32):
key part of that for those first thousand days is
early attachment and the importance of forming healthy attachments. We're
going to have a chat about that and what it
means for kids as they grow up. And also, I mean,
I guess there'll be parents who worry about, you know,
especially maybe dads sometimes feel that they struggle with early
attachment because the early days are just with just with
(00:53):
the baby. But I don't know so much about it.
So what we do is we get someone who does
know a bit more about it than I do, maybe
even a lot more. And he's a neuroscience educator has
been with us quite a few times on the Parents Squad,
and his name is Nathan Wallery, Nathan are game.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Mate? How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'm all right? Actually, those every time I hear the
first thousand days, I keep on thinking of that amazing
Dunedin study, which you know track. It's we've learned a
lot of things out of that, haven't we? And it continued.
I think we've got new generations that are participating in
these these studies, aren't we.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
It was a year after I was born, so I
just missed out by a year, because I know from
Milton just down the road, it's one of the most
famous LONGESTRIPR studies in the world.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So how what can you describe to us the importance
excuse me of early attachment when it comes to I
guess we're talking about bonding, aren't we. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I mean, you can't underestimate the importance of early attachment.
It really is a foundation for everything else you're going
to do as a human being. And the quality of
that helps to because it's at the very start really
for most people sets a pathway that they don't change from.
So it's incredibly powerful early attachment. You know, the brain.
People tend to think of the brain as a computer,
but it's not really like computer it's much more to
(02:06):
do with relationship and connection than it is with computation.
So yeah, it's deeply what built into the wiring of
our brain, and we need attachment. If we don't get attachment,
we don't fulfill our potential, we don't wire up your
jurors with the brain.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
A lot of people would might assume that, you know,
when you become a parent, you know, it's sort of
instinct kicks in, and do people take do people take
it for granted that attachment will just fly, because I
also will hear from I mean, there are different stresses
that people can have, postpartum depression, all sorts of things
where right where mums just look at the child as
(02:42):
if I don't even know where this thing came from.
They just have this you know. So is it something
we take for granted too much?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Well, I think it is something that we put out
this myth that it's just going to be this automatic
bang fallhead of your hells in love with the baby.
But a lot of that scott to do with you know,
if you've never held a baby before, if you don't
have cousins that are younger than you, you know, like
I come from a really large family. I've got like
sixty cousins just on mum's side, and they all lived close.
So I just took it for granted that everybody grew
up changing other people's nappies. And it wasn't until I
(03:10):
was really had my first child that I realized the
huge difference and experience between me and my partner that
she didn't have any cousins. She never changed a nappy.
So I think when we say it's instinct, it's not. Really.
It's a lot to do with the experience you've had,
and the more experience you've hair with babies, probably the
easier it is. Nature does give you six whole months
to attach to the baby, so nature's not expecting you
to do it. It's toily.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
What do you mean? What do you mean nature gives
you six whole months? You're talking about while when you
see the the bum growing and you anticipation and think
about it.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, well as when we see the kid. We call
the neurosequential model the neurobrain sequentially order, so an academic
way of saying brain order. But your brain goes through
what brain's one, two, three, and four, Like brain number
two is movement. That's the bulgy bit at the back
of your head, your cerebellum. If you think about it,
most of the motor skills that you learn in your
whole life, you learn the majority of them in a
twelve month period and that's between six months and eighteen months. Yeah,
(04:02):
blob in the arms for being all this walking, moving creature.
So what do we do in the first six months?
Because nature can have you walking straight away. They have
a horse walking straight away, but nature we put off
walking and stuff for six months. But that's what I
mean by nature gives us a whole six months to
find their protection because hasn't available immediately after birth. So
nature hasn't set it up that you've got the first week.
Nature set it up. You've got the whole six months.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Do you think we've evolved that way that kids don't
that kid's children babies are more needy because it's a
fundamental part of human development that that opportunity is there
for you know, I mean for human attachment.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I don't think they're more needy. I think that need
is what allows for our higher intelligence. So by having that,
you know, like reptiles aren't very intelligent, they don't need parents.
They just lay because their brains are way less complex.
But the fact that human brains are so complex means
that most of them grow outside the womb. You know.
We're like some of us are thirty two before we
reach adulthood, you know, so anywhere between eighteen and thirty
(05:00):
two years to reach adult to So that allows that
more complex brain to grow. But it means that you
need to have a childhood. Do you need to have
connection of relationship?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Sorry, you mentioned you know, here's did you say six
teas and six zero cousins.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, that's just an umside.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Wow, that's that is a good that's a good extended family.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, but I just thought that's fairly common down south,
you know, like I didn't feel unusual growing up.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
No, no, no, But I was wondering if do we
have more problems these days with I don't want to
dramatize anything either, by the way, just because we always
assume this generation's got all the problems. But intuitively, I
would imagine because we don't live quite in the villages
that we might have and times gone by where we
were close closer to people, do we have more issues
(05:54):
with attachments simply because people aren't growing up in those
environments where they understand you know, as you say that, haven't.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
You're not You're less likely to change your neighbors now
then you are your cousins nappy. Yeah, so maybe the
fact that we have all moved away from our being centralized,
we're in that village less often, so there's less chance
to pra just there, same time around everywhere. The sixty
six thousand and numbern every year, so you know, yeah,
(06:23):
you look hard enough, you can find one.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Actually, it's funny because when we were doing anti natal
classes prenatal I company what they call them action now
I think of it. But at the end of it,
the midwife who was taking the course, and I've talked
about this before, but said, of you, has anyone got
any questions? And I because I was the youngest in
my family, so I'd never held a baby, and I
may have once awkwardly or something, but sat in a chair,
(06:48):
but I actually said to her, how do you hold
a baby? And I feel it's a dumb question. And
interesting thing was she said, that's not a dumb question
at all, and then she demonstrated a bunch of ways
you get to hold an infant, which was all news
to me. But yeah, I guess that was that was Sorry,
what's up? Sorry?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I just like I'm just saying, that's exactly what you
want to happen in an intind Yes, you're breaking in
and out.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, no, I might switch off our video because we're
coming down the zoom links. I might you to switch
off your video side of things and we'll see if
we can get them improve the streaming. Yeah, there we go.
Let's see if that makes a difference. So, I mean,
how much is it? Is it more of a problem
these days? I think actually, I do think we need
(07:39):
to re establish that connection.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Stand by are you hearing me?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I am.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Where you go? Where you go?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Okay, Sorry, we have to repeat the question now I've
lost focus. We're talking about.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yes, is it more of a problem these days? A
bit more of an issue to society? There's what a
bit more of an attachment?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
All right? Yeah? Well, well, I mean it could be
because you don't have the grandmother's available, You don't have
the people there. I mean you still have midwives and
you lalish and stuff. There's people available to help, but
only a couple of generations ago everyone had you know,
eighty percent of people lived to the same community as
their appearance. Mothers didn't work, so the grandmother was available.
(08:24):
There were people there to support and help you. So
it's less of that around now, so it publicly is.
And the rushed world, the more rush you are, the
harder is to attach and you've got to really slow
down is a big part of it. And you're patient
to attach to the baby. Yeah, and today is the
rushed world.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Is it different for dads when it comes to attachment
compared to mums? And I know, you know what you're
supposed to talk about roles, but yeah, let's face it,
it's not biologically.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
It's just it's a cultural thing. Dad may have had
less often a baby thrust at them and then mom did,
just because we see baby looking after as a girl's thing.
But it's not biologically driven or anything. You know, men
have oxytocin and we were less oxytocin when we see
the baby and most of the guys I know dotting
about wanting to be dads, they're pretty nurturing.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I'm trying to think of
back when I became a dad, I think I was
just terrified of it. The journey for me was I
remember I remember very specifically watching her. In fact, it's
probably one of the most beautiful I don't want to
be all touchy feely about it, but it was one
of the most way. But it was one of the
most outstanding moments I will never forget, was watching my
(09:32):
wife go from being someone who was pregnant and in
labor just suddenly having an infant in her arms and
instantly seeing who was switched to becoming a mum. Yeah,
And it was actually just an amazing moment. And I
think for me that's maybe when something kicked in as well,
because do you know what I mean, it's I need
for her. It was just seemed to come so naturally
(09:55):
in the way she started interacting with her baby, and
I was like, I mean, it was it was a
very emotional time, but that was what I wasn't expecting
because but she was ready for that. It was f me,
it was like, oh my god, there's another there's another being.
Do you remember what about you? What was what was
your I mean.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
I remember being struck that my daughter looked around the room,
stopped and looked at her gaze at me, and looked
at me with like a full person looking at me,
a full personality and stuff, and I thought, shit, that's
someone in there. I was expecting just a baby, you know,
like a blah that I was going to teach and train,
and I didn't expect to get like a full person
(10:33):
already looking back at me. And I understand that now.
It's just that temperament. You know, they personality changes, but
you are born with that temperament. And you know she's
thirty something now, and that personality that was looking back
at me, that is very much her, you know, before
she'd ever spoken before any language or anything, who looked
back at me very much as who my daughter is.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And how important How important are those I mean, for
obviously you and for me, those moments were big moments,
And I mean, how important is it that those moments occur,
because there will be people who overwhelmed by the moment,
who'd be thinking, I just I just was looking at
this thing. I couldn't relate to it.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
You often think mums myself on the berth in some
ways because they're so exhausted from physically pushing this baby out,
But then they're not as in zone as we are.
Had to get these magical moments. I'm with my last order.
She was a water berth, so she's born underwater, and
so I left it out of the water, so she
stays sort of not dead, but she's alive yet. And
(11:31):
she says, all white and corpsey looking, but pink underneath.
But you lift her out of the water, and as
the water cascades off her, she bursts to life and
all the pink rushes to her skin. And this person
comes to life in your hands. And that sounds wow,
That's got to be the single most amazing thing I've
ever done in my life. But my wife was just
really exhausted. I'm just so pleased she finally got it out.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
She wasn't too you know, gosh. That's that's actually we
want to take your cause on this as well, because
you might want to just share your experience of becoming
a parent for the first time. But we're talking about
the importance of attachment, which is not, of course, just
those first moments after the baby's born, but we love
it's most important in the next you know, six months,
(12:13):
year two or three especially, So we love your cause
on that if you just want to share us your
experience on that as well. Eight hundred eighty ten eighty
text nine two nine two, and you can also email
I don't forget the email. We're here to talk about things.
I'm with Nathan Wallace. He's a neuroscience educator and he's
with us for the Parents Squad. It is twenty past five.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Yues.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Welcome back to the Parents Squad. I'm Tim Beverage. The
numbers are eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. I'm with
Nathan Wallace's a neuroscience educator. We're talking about the importance
of attachment with your child, and especially the importance of
early attachment. Hey, Nathan Rickson, what does attachment? How would
you do? Is there a way of observing when attachment
is I mean, what does it look like? Is they're
right and the wrong? And when can you tell when
(13:16):
there's a problem with attachment?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
There's it's usually you know, you can see a bond
between the baby and the significant person. It doesn't have
to be the mother, like you know, the baby's going
to bond and have that attachment figure with whoever talks
to them the most. Not you know, they don't care
whether they're related or male or female. But usually it's
mum who's talking the most, so you'll see that attachment
because they start to attune to each other, they start
(13:41):
to predict each other, you know. You know, there's a
little simple things like the baby stops crying when the
mother approaches, or the program and a keg of our approaches,
the keg of us seems to know what things to
do to work that the baby wants. You know, they
start to be able to interpret their cues. It might
just be that the baby, your baby likes them to
be like winded, patted on the back, or they like
(14:01):
to be walked around, or they just start to pick
up on those things.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Does that make it a bit more challenging sometimes for
I don't want to generalize and say dads, but the
other parent, because you know, the baby's crying, I don't
know what to do with it, and mum comes near
and all of a sudden it stops. It's like, oh.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Great, yeah, And it can be very easy to if
one is doing most of the parenting, to just sort
of leave it to them, you know that that that
they've got it. But I mean, the baby only needs
one attachment figure in the first year. It's fine for
dad to be the secondary attachment figure. Dad doesn't have
to try and compete with that main primary care giver.
You know, day can enjoy that second relationship of you know,
(14:38):
being the cool good cop. You don't have to. You
don't have to. The attachment is being done by the mother.
That's you know, the brain and who really needs one
attachment and so you're a bonus. So I just enjoy
the baby. You're not in a you're not under any
threat or you can't going to sort of do anything wrong.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That's where is that where grandparents you know, we get
it off, get off lightly because all care and no
responsibility sort of thing. Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I mean that first year of life is really about
the baby feeling adored and about language. You know about
research wise, it's about language. So the more language they hear,
the more of their brain comes online. That the more
of the frontal cortexts or else. So basically you could
just summarize your dance to and the first year, adore
your baby and talk to them at every possible minute.
(15:24):
The more minute, the word, more words you get in
per day, the better their outcomes are. So use sports
commentary even when you're just beside the baby. Just describe
what they're doing. Oh look, and he's putting the sum
up to his mouth and oh yeah, he's using saliva
to try and dissolve as this. Just describe what the
baby's doing because you're surrounding them in language, and there's
nothing better you could do. It doesn't matter if you
do Homer Simpson impersonations because the baby in the first
(15:46):
year of life doesn't really understand. They just know you're
engaging them with language. So you just just adore them
and immerse them in lots of language. Two languages are
possible if you've got any to Mary throw that in
as well.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, So where do people go wrong with it?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Then? Well, when you have big long there's four different
types of attachment. One's disorganized. That's the people who abuse
their kids. You know, we unfortunately have a whole cohort
of people that want to offen up the baby and stuff,
and we have horrific rates of you know, child murder
and stuff. In New Zealand. There is a cohort of
people that abuse their children. Right, So that's called disorganized attachment.
(16:20):
That really screws the person up because the person who
is supposed to be loving them is destroying them. The
other is for it. The other one at the other
end of secure attachment. Luckily, most people get that, about
seventy six percent get that secure attachment. That's what you want.
You just feel secure that your parents there for you
and they've got your back, and you're good, you're safe,
you can trust. And then the other two in the middle.
One's ambivalent and one's anxious. So ambivalent is where you've
(16:43):
got caregivers that are there, inconsistent, but they don't really
connect with you. They don't. They might be postal, a depression,
they might have just had a distant mother themselves, but
they just don't really seem to know how to connect
with the baby. They say the baby is a thing,
and there's just a disconnect, but they do they still
run through all the procedures. So that's an ambivalent attachment style.
So that because their attachment style forms the basis for
(17:04):
all of the relations ships you're going to have. Ever,
that means that present carries forward ambivalence into their relationships.
I thought they could be a bit find it hard
to connect with people. Yeah, difficult, because yeah, anxious. The
other one is where you have a caregiver that knows
how to connect with you and love you and adore you.
But they don't do it consistently. They disappear, So that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Might be anxiety is on part of the baby, is it?
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yeah? Yeah, when you're get an anxious attachment style because
you're a caregiver that you love an a doll, it's suddenly,
without warning, disappears. So caregivers that aren't consistently there, Mum
and dad are swapping around their babies looked after by
Nanda this day, Auntie that day. You know, Mum's will
there for long periods of time. You often see it
with a drug addiction. You know, when mum's sober, she's available, loving,
(17:52):
and then you know Thursday, Friday and Saturdays is pasted
and unavailable. Baby gathers in an anxious attachment style.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Can babies depending so say her parents got the same
sort of attached style if the parent it behaves similarly
to each child. Can children still form different types of
attachment based on their own sort of wirings?
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Absolutely, you do. No no children. No child has the
same childhood as anybody else. No one else really live
and lives in the same household as anybody else. You know,
your brothers and sisters. I know they technically did, but honestly,
their childhood are so different for each person. You know
that the genes that make you up are completely different.
Unless you're di identical twins. You've had completely different experiences.
(18:38):
Your parents were at completely different places when you were born.
You know, there was different levels of finances and stress
and level of knowledge and so many different things going on.
That absolutely a love a different attachment. You might have
a pre you might be predisposed, say to having secure
attachment because you've received secure attachment. So it doesn't mean
all your kids will Yeah you're predisposed to anxious then
(19:01):
you might, but you know you're predisposed to. It doesn't
mean all the kids will have anxious attachment though, depends
on what's happening when they're born and how well they're
responded to.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So, I mean, how much of an how much of
an impact in terms, let's let's just say talk about
one form of attachment, anxious attachment?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Yep, how much?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
How does that affect someone's life going? You know, but
can it be overcome?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Absolutely it can be overcome. It can be changed at anytime.
There's a whole industry around, so you know, working out
what your attachment style is and how you work if
that as an adult to basically you know, heal that,
so yes, you can flex it. What was the first
part of that question.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Sir, I've forgotten? Can you know? That's no? I said,
let's focus on anxious attachment. If you if you, if
you have formed that sort of if that's your the
first formative years, how do you overcome that and can
it be overcome?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, you have a sathing you can overcome it.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
It just means if you don't overcome it, if you
just go through life for them anxious or an avoidant
attachment style, you're just tech way more prining to mental
illness or lower quality of life, difficulty and relationships. Things
not quite gelling properly.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
When it comes to people having issues in their lives
of mental health, I mean there's much of it traceable
back to those first three years, I mean generalizations, but
maybe I should say how much of that is trace general.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
With a term as much as like mental health because
it's so you know, broad, yes, mental health, don't we
you know, we all have good and bad feelings, so
we have mental health. But when we talk about mental health,
we're talking about more severe mental health. Like I get
a little bit depressed sometimes, but never have depression. I
get more anxiety than depression. I don't think I've ever
had depression, you know, but as a human being, of course,
(20:47):
I'm sometimes really sad. So yeah, when you talk about
certainly the early years can have a big impact because
your attachment style is at the base of everything. But
it's just so so multifaceted your mental health, you know,
so it's weighed up with your resiliency factors. Like you
and I could both experience the same risk factor, but
(21:07):
you've got a wife, and you live next door to
your brother, and both your parents are still alive, and
you know, and then I have the same thing. I
work with you there, and I have exactly the same
risk factor. But I'm the only person in my family
that's in this in this city. You know, my brother
died a year ago. You know, those sorts of.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I mean, is it possible as well? Can parents recognize
can they recognize where things might be going wrong? And
even you know, so you might say, you know, your
parenting style hasn't changed, and you've got you know, the
first child's got a secure attachment but the can parents
recognize when a baby is not forming the right sort
(21:45):
of attachment despite their best best efforts.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah, there is often signs, you know, the baby, the
baby is always trying to communicate what they need. So
the baby probably becomes a lot more demanding and a
lot more cleaning because they try to get that attachment.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, would that be a and detachment where they can't
be like that? I mean, would would they behave differently
with the act? I know it's getting sort of into
the weeds a bit with.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Well, because everyone's got their own temperament. You know, you're
born with that temperament, so you're going to respond according
to how your temperament is of those styles differently. Yeah,
it just means that things aren't yelling completely. There's not
just us I heard them are wife, there's a little
paradise for everything just sinks into place like you described
with your wife. You know that's what my wife just
you know, easily move into this beautiful reciprocal response.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I be.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
But it's not like that for everybody.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, what about I mean, if is it possible that
one parent might recognize it as an issue safe mums
struggling or with you know with things. I mean, when
would you recognize that there's going to be a long
term problem for your child in terms of the way
those first two or three years agoing.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
No probably and retro vision, you know, like looking back
when they're three. It takes a lot to screw it up.
You know, you've got and I said that you've got
the first six months, but you've got the first three
years really and you've only got to have good enough attachment.
You don't have to be great. What the pattern you
basically see in the literature, So if someone has an issue,
it's like postninal depression. They if they say that I'm
(23:17):
finding this really hard and I'm struggling, and they get
any support, then their children have the same outcomes as
people who didn't have postinal depression. So we're in the
research you get the really bad outcomes. There's people that
experience those things but have no access to resources or anything,
or don't tell anybody and they're isolated. Then you get
negative outcomes. They don't get any support, they don't have
(23:39):
the behaviors changed. They're left sitting at home steering at
the wall instead of talking to the baby. And that
has been ramifications for the baby for the rest of
their life on the text pat because of that in
our first Golden year. So what I'm saying is there's
no shame in things like postnal depression. That's a biologically
driven thing that cannot be controlled. You know. It's about
it's about getting support for those things and making sure
that we fund those things and recognized.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I sometimes feel when we have these discussions, you know,
it can to sort of place the spotlight on something
where you know, new parents be thinking, oh, I'll better
think about attachment. But really it's just about I don't know,
recognizing that things can go wrong, but don't stress about it.
If you're a parent who's excited about becoming a parent,
you know, unless you experience issues postpartment and all that
(24:23):
sort of thing, then hopefully just the law of nature
looks after a lot of this stuff, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah, that's right. And if you do experience that, she
don't be afraid to ask for help. I'm always saying,
it's not a weakness to us for help. It really
is a strength to know when to ask for help.
I remember when my daughter was born, the same one
I felt like, you know, because I've been the family,
babysitter and stuff and love babies. I've met other babies
that I fell in love with straight away, but because
I saw that personality when she was just straight out
(24:50):
of the womb, basically, I didn't feel like I really
had those gushing feelings of being madly in love with
her like I expected to have when she was born
until she was about four or five months old, because
I felt when she was born I loved her like
I would run into a building to save her life.
But I didn't love her because we didn't really know her. Yeah,
to get to know who she was.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Is that something? Is that something that is more common
for dads sometimes, you know, because you know mums, especially
if you know if mum's breastfeeding and taking you and
dad's I know, I'm dealing with cliches here, but it's
quite common. The reason they're tliches, it's because it's common.
Because so if mum's going to work, sorry, if mum's
(25:33):
looking at for the baby and dad's going to work
and things. Is it something where that's something dads worry
about forming that attachment as well.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I think it's less and less about the gender difference.
It really is just about your childhood experience and stuff. Yeah,
did you grow up with someone shoved the baby at
us go and change their necky?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
You know?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Did you have to look after a little kid for
two hours even so you had to take responsibility for it?
Did you ever kick those you know, neural structures in
And if you didn't, then you can worry about the thing.
I've never attached to a baby before.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Is that why some dads are like, look, absolutely dorm
own kids, But I don't really care about anyone else's.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well I just might not be gushy
all other kids, you know, and I aren't really I'm
thrilled by kids and kids are thing. But there's lots
of wine like that as well. Only fifty people breed you,
So I've got got lots of female friends that I
think kids are quite disgusting were not? Yeah, children, Yeah,
(26:33):
and I can totally see that point of view.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, I mean it's one of the common things that
dads would have, or the or the or the non
sort of you know, there's the primary attachment sort of
geargiver that you talk about. Let's I don't know what
the terminology is, but what does it mean? If you're
not the primary is it a worry that some parents have,
(26:55):
is that they worry that they're not going to form
a close as close as an attachment as they'd like to.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I mean, there is definitely the primary key giver and
they're a secondary caregiver. You don't know, both stay at
home generally, but develop mentally wise, that's just how we
develop because you have to have sort of one that's
the basis of your of all your relationships and your brain.
And then from one you have two, and from two
you have four, and from four your fates. So it
just has to be one. And like I said that,
but you know Dad was at home the whole time
(27:23):
and Moe was going to work, the primary together would
be dead. So no, you don't have to be the
primary keeger. If you're not the primary caregiver so yet
you're the one that's mainly staying with the baby and
you're the one that's taking leave and stuff, then yes,
you've got to absolutely get that attachment. If you're not,
you're the secondary Cara, then you just get to enjoy
the baby. Remember us grandparents go and get this wonderful
(27:44):
attachment way better than you, fellas get usually because we're
really good at it by the time of grandparents and
in the months a week. So it's not about time,
it's about it's about quality and about Like I said,
I've got a new grandson who's like seven weeks old,
and I have I've got a few grandchildren now, but
I noticed things that work. Like my first grandson said
to me, his earliest memory ever is me singing to
(28:04):
hod and earlier to them artist.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Wow, that's a merry Christmas song, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
That's that.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Saying sorry I was thanking of the Christmas number.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
But because I know that singing is elongated sounds and
the brain will recognize that more rapidly. So when I'm
going to visit my grandchild now, I sing that song
to him, the new one, and he does instantly claps.
Who I am. I'm helping him predict how that is.
I go there that often. I have a big impact
when I go there because I'm power and I speak.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
He comes super grand dude. Yeah, hey, we'll be back
in just a moment. Would love to take your cause
if you've got any questions as well, just around forming
attachment with the children or maybe even with yourself. If
you're worried about attachment and how you can overcome any
issues you might have had when you were younger, then
you can give us a call. I put that quite clumsily,
but you know what I mean. It's twenty one minutes
to six News Talks.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
He'd be.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yes, welcome back. This is the weekend Collective Parents Squad
with Nathan Wallace's in neuroscience educated talking about the importance
of early attachment in those early years and taking your
calls as well. Peter, Hello, Hi.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Couple of questions. Firstly, if a mother, say, has one
child and then has a miscarriage, would it be quite
considerable fall out for so the other child when they
have a miscarriage.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yes, I mean it's going to depend on the impact
of the miscarriage, you know, because that's a devastating thing.
But there can be varying degrees of devastation. It can
throw some people right into a deep depression. And it'll
depend what the age gap is. You know, if the
child was already say two, and then mum had a miscarriage,
then most of that significant brain development that data has
sort of happened by two, whereas if it was only
(30:01):
a nine month gap and the baby's only nine months old,
and then mum goes in to a heavy period of
depression for a long period of time. They can certainly
have an impact.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
And then the other thing that I've noticed is parents
who say both the youngest or both the oldest, and
my observations are children. You know, when it's been three
children and people have a middle parent, they seem far
more attentive and flexible.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Middle parents.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Yes, well, in their own family, they are middle parents,
so they weren't the oldest or the youngest has no
experience of looking after children.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, and the eldest is just sort of you know,
I'm taught to be bossy. Whereas that you do see,
middle children are tend to have better relationship skills, so
they've gone to relationship jobs, teaching and nursing and stuff.
Because if you're the eldest, you have to have authority.
If you're the youngest, you have to listen to authority.
But if you're in the middle, you have to do both.
So you have a you're probably better communication skills, better
(31:01):
relationship skills. So it probably does translate into a wee
bit easy apparenting.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, thank you, Thanks Peter, Actually, I was just wondering, Nathan,
are there personality types that sort of attached to whether
you are the oldest, the middle or the youngest.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Or there's a statistically the thing for the eldest child,
certainly they are in a bit more money and stuff.
The rest of it though, tends to be psychological, you know, research.
It's a bit like star signs. You know, it could
be a handy structure because you do see it, you know,
just because it's not you know, it's only correlative in
the research, So there's correlations. There's not really strong research
(31:37):
to show you're going to be like this if you're
a youngest child, because we know it's only one factor
amongst a million.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It's often you hear people say, oh, are you the
youngest or that that figures that's right.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
That's what I mean. We like, we see it, so
there is some something in there, but not statistically you know,
children two, three and four having the same outcomes.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I think, I mean, just to wrap it up, I
think probably for me, if I was someone who was
a parent or going to be parent, what what can
you do if you're one of those parents who you know,
you just struggle with that connection with your child because
for some reason you're just trying to work out, you know,
who is the side, you know what I mean, Because
(32:18):
it's not a choice necessarily you make. Sometimes it's just
the way you're wired.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
That's right. So don't put yourself up about it. Just
you know you've had this baby dedicated to doing it,
even twenty minutes a day where you turn off every
distraction and put yourself with your baby. And when there
are nappies change and they had to feed and stuff,
there's no jobs that they're done and their needs are met.
(32:43):
And turn off all distractions and get rid of the
cell phone and turn it off and stuff, and just
look into your baby's eyes and match their pace and
do nothing except for imitate the baby.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Sounds like pretty simple advice, doesn't it. Actually, as you
mentioned that, I suddenly thought, of course, oh the bloomin
old cell phones is never far from the conversation, is it.
But put down your.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Cell phone, actually turning that off the name for twin
two minutes, My job is just going to be looking
at my baby.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Is that an issue do you think for young parents
as the blooming's cell phone?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah? Absolutely is. My mate's just finished a PhD on
how cell phones are interfacing without development, So you're seeing
it as a nationwide, as a worldwide trend. Come into
infancy tend to have shorter concentration spans because parents are
talking for less time before they turn to the screen.
More disturbingly, there's contraptions to put on the prem and stuff.
To have a screen spoked in front of your kid.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Oh God, to me, that would be like putting them
on some sort of drug. Really, it just seems that
the last thing you should bloom and well do.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, but if parents don't know that, you know, they
just know what the baby is quiet when you put
the screen in front and they like it. They don't
still of have the education to know they like lollies too,
But you don't get to get so.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Actually funny enough, if you're going to distill anything out
of this conversation, it's put down that bloody cell phone
and don't.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Give it to your kids either, would be a good thing.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, great to talk to you again, Nathan, Thanks so
much mate, really appreciate it again. Okay, there we go.
That is that's Nathan Wallace And if you've missed any
of the previous how you can go and check it
out on our podcast as well, and we'll be back
to rap sport with supermanahself. Christopher Eve will be joining
us lots to talk about with Chris, so we'll be
back with you in just the tickets twelve and a
(34:23):
half minutes to see.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks dB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Yes, welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective. If your
has just joined us this and the Parents Squad, we
want your calls on O eight one hundred and eighty
ten to eighty and for the start of this hour,
we're going to have a chat about the basically forming
attachment to your child. They say the first thousand days
are the most important in any child's life to set
the foundation for well rounded and stable life, and a
(00:32):
key part of that for those first thousand days is
early attachment and the importance of forming healthy attachments. We're
going to have a chat about that and what it
means for kids as they grow up. And also, I mean,
I guess there'll be parents who worry about, you know,
especially maybe dads sometimes feel that they struggle with early
attachment because the early days are just with just with
(00:53):
the baby. But I don't know so much about it.
So what we do is we get someone who does
know a bit more about it than I do, maybe
even a lot more. And he's a neuroscience educator has
been with us quite a few times on the Parents Squad,
and his name is Nathan Wallery, Nathan are game.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Mate? How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'm all right? Actually, those every time I hear the
first thousand days, I keep on thinking of that amazing
Dunedin study, which you know track. It's we've learned a
lot of things out of that, haven't we? And it continued.
I think we've got new generations that are participating in
these these studies, aren't we.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
It was a year after I was born, so I
just missed out by a year, because I know from
Milton just down the road, it's one of the most
famous LONGESTRIPR studies in the world.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So how what can you describe to us the importance
excuse me of early attachment when it comes to I
guess we're talking about bonding, aren't we. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I mean, you can't underestimate the importance of early attachment.
It really is a foundation for everything else you're going
to do as a human being. And the quality of
that helps to because it's at the very start really
for most people sets a pathway that they don't change from.
So it's incredibly powerful early attachment. You know, the brain.
People tend to think of the brain as a computer,
but it's not really like computer it's much more to
(02:06):
do with relationship and connection than it is with computation.
So yeah, it's deeply what built into the wiring of
our brain, and we need attachment. If we don't get attachment,
we don't fulfill our potential, we don't wire up your
jurors with the brain.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
A lot of people would might assume that, you know,
when you become a parent, you know, it's sort of
instinct kicks in, and do people take do people take
it for granted that attachment will just fly, because I
also will hear from I mean, there are different stresses
that people can have, postpartum depression, all sorts of things
where right where mums just look at the child as
(02:42):
if I don't even know where this thing came from.
They just have this you know. So is it something
we take for granted too much?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Well, I think it is something that we put out
this myth that it's just going to be this automatic
bang fallhead of your hells in love with the baby.
But a lot of that scott to do with you know,
if you've never held a baby before, if you don't
have cousins that are younger than you, you know, like
I come from a really large family. I've got like
sixty cousins just on mum's side, and they all lived close.
So I just took it for granted that everybody grew
up changing other people's nappies. And it wasn't until I
(03:10):
was really had my first child that I realized the
huge difference and experience between me and my partner that
she didn't have any cousins. She never changed a nappy.
So I think when we say it's instinct, it's not. Really.
It's a lot to do with the experience you've had,
and the more experience you've hair with babies, probably the
easier it is. Nature does give you six whole months
to attach to the baby, so nature's not expecting you
to do it. It's toily.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
What do you mean? What do you mean nature gives
you six whole months? You're talking about while when you
see the the bum growing and you anticipation and think
about it.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, well as when we see the kid. We call
the neurosequential model the neurobrain sequentially order, so an academic
way of saying brain order. But your brain goes through
what brain's one, two, three, and four, Like brain number
two is movement. That's the bulgy bit at the back
of your head, your cerebellum. If you think about it,
most of the motor skills that you learn in your
whole life, you learn the majority of them in a
twelve month period and that's between six months and eighteen months. Yeah,
(04:02):
blob in the arms for being all this walking, moving creature.
So what do we do in the first six months?
Because nature can have you walking straight away. They have
a horse walking straight away, but nature we put off
walking and stuff for six months. But that's what I
mean by nature gives us a whole six months to
find their protection because hasn't available immediately after birth. So
nature hasn't set it up that you've got the first week.
Nature set it up. You've got the whole six months.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Do you think we've evolved that way that kids don't
that kid's children babies are more needy because it's a
fundamental part of human development that that opportunity is there
for you know, I mean for human attachment.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I don't think they're more needy. I think that need
is what allows for our higher intelligence. So by having that,
you know, like reptiles aren't very intelligent, they don't need parents.
They just lay because their brains are way less complex.
But the fact that human brains are so complex means
that most of them grow outside the womb. You know.
We're like some of us are thirty two before we
reach adulthood, you know, so anywhere between eighteen and thirty
(05:00):
two years to reach adult to So that allows that
more complex brain to grow. But it means that you
need to have a childhood. Do you need to have
connection of relationship?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Sorry, you mentioned you know, here's did you say six
teas and six zero cousins.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, that's just an umside.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Wow, that's that is a good that's a good extended family.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, but I just thought that's fairly common down south,
you know, like I didn't feel unusual growing up.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
No, no, no, But I was wondering if do we
have more problems these days with I don't want to
dramatize anything either, by the way, just because we always
assume this generation's got all the problems. But intuitively, I
would imagine because we don't live quite in the villages
that we might have and times gone by where we
were close closer to people, do we have more issues
(05:54):
with attachments simply because people aren't growing up in those
environments where they understand you know, as you say that, haven't.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
You're not You're less likely to change your neighbors now
then you are your cousins nappy. Yeah, so maybe the
fact that we have all moved away from our being centralized,
we're in that village less often, so there's less chance
to pra just there, same time around everywhere. The sixty
six thousand and numbern every year, so you know, yeah,
(06:23):
you look hard enough, you can find one.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Actually, it's funny because when we were doing anti natal
classes prenatal I company what they call them action now
I think of it. But at the end of it,
the midwife who was taking the course, and I've talked
about this before, but said, of you, has anyone got
any questions? And I because I was the youngest in
my family, so I'd never held a baby, and I
may have once awkwardly or something, but sat in a chair,
(06:48):
but I actually said to her, how do you hold
a baby? And I feel it's a dumb question. And
interesting thing was she said, that's not a dumb question
at all, and then she demonstrated a bunch of ways
you get to hold an infant, which was all news
to me. But yeah, I guess that was that was Sorry,
what's up? Sorry?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I just like I'm just saying, that's exactly what you
want to happen in an intind Yes, you're breaking in
and out.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, no, I might switch off our video because we're
coming down the zoom links. I might you to switch
off your video side of things and we'll see if
we can get them improve the streaming. Yeah, there we go.
Let's see if that makes a difference. So, I mean,
how much is it? Is it more of a problem
these days? I think actually, I do think we need
(07:39):
to re establish that connection.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Stand by are you hearing me?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I am.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Where you go? Where you go?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Okay, Sorry, we have to repeat the question now I've
lost focus. We're talking about.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yes, is it more of a problem these days? A
bit more of an issue to society? There's what a
bit more of an attachment?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
All right? Yeah? Well, well, I mean it could be
because you don't have the grandmother's available, You don't have
the people there. I mean you still have midwives and
you lalish and stuff. There's people available to help, but
only a couple of generations ago everyone had you know,
eighty percent of people lived to the same community as
their appearance. Mothers didn't work, so the grandmother was available.
(08:24):
There were people there to support and help you. So
it's less of that around now, so it publicly is.
And the rushed world, the more rush you are, the
harder is to attach and you've got to really slow
down is a big part of it. And you're patient
to attach to the baby. Yeah, and today is the
rushed world.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Is it different for dads when it comes to attachment
compared to mums? And I know, you know what you're
supposed to talk about roles, but yeah, let's face it,
it's not biologically.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
It's just it's a cultural thing. Dad may have had
less often a baby thrust at them and then mom did,
just because we see baby looking after as a girl's thing.
But it's not biologically driven or anything. You know, men
have oxytocin and we were less oxytocin when we see
the baby and most of the guys I know dotting
about wanting to be dads, they're pretty nurturing.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I'm trying to think of
back when I became a dad, I think I was
just terrified of it. The journey for me was I
remember I remember very specifically watching her. In fact, it's
probably one of the most beautiful I don't want to
be all touchy feely about it, but it was one
of the most way. But it was one of the
most outstanding moments I will never forget, was watching my
(09:32):
wife go from being someone who was pregnant and in
labor just suddenly having an infant in her arms and
instantly seeing who was switched to becoming a mum. Yeah,
And it was actually just an amazing moment. And I
think for me that's maybe when something kicked in as well,
because do you know what I mean, it's I need
for her. It was just seemed to come so naturally
(09:55):
in the way she started interacting with her baby, and
I was like, I mean, it was it was a
very emotional time, but that was what I wasn't expecting
because but she was ready for that. It was f me,
it was like, oh my god, there's another there's another being.
Do you remember what about you? What was what was
your I mean.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
I remember being struck that my daughter looked around the room,
stopped and looked at her gaze at me, and looked
at me with like a full person looking at me,
a full personality and stuff, and I thought, shit, that's
someone in there. I was expecting just a baby, you know,
like a blah that I was going to teach and train,
and I didn't expect to get like a full person
(10:33):
already looking back at me. And I understand that now.
It's just that temperament. You know, they personality changes, but
you are born with that temperament. And you know she's
thirty something now, and that personality that was looking back
at me, that is very much her, you know, before
she'd ever spoken before any language or anything, who looked
back at me very much as who my daughter is.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And how important How important are those I mean, for
obviously you and for me, those moments were big moments,
And I mean, how important is it that those moments occur,
because there will be people who overwhelmed by the moment,
who'd be thinking, I just I just was looking at
this thing. I couldn't relate to it.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
You often think mums myself on the berth in some
ways because they're so exhausted from physically pushing this baby out,
But then they're not as in zone as we are.
Had to get these magical moments. I'm with my last order.
She was a water berth, so she's born underwater, and
so I left it out of the water, so she
stays sort of not dead, but she's alive yet. And
(11:31):
she says, all white and corpsey looking, but pink underneath.
But you lift her out of the water, and as
the water cascades off her, she bursts to life and
all the pink rushes to her skin. And this person
comes to life in your hands. And that sounds wow,
That's got to be the single most amazing thing I've
ever done in my life. But my wife was just
really exhausted. I'm just so pleased she finally got it out.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
She wasn't too you know, gosh. That's that's actually we
want to take your cause on this as well, because
you might want to just share your experience of becoming
a parent for the first time. But we're talking about
the importance of attachment, which is not, of course, just
those first moments after the baby's born, but we love
it's most important in the next you know, six months,
(12:13):
year two or three especially, So we love your cause
on that if you just want to share us your
experience on that as well. Eight hundred eighty ten eighty
text nine two nine two, and you can also email
I don't forget the email. We're here to talk about things.
I'm with Nathan Wallace. He's a neuroscience educator and he's
with us for the Parents Squad. It is twenty past five.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Yues.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Welcome back to the Parents Squad. I'm Tim Beverage. The
numbers are eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. I'm with
Nathan Wallace's a neuroscience educator. We're talking about the importance
of attachment with your child, and especially the importance of
early attachment. Hey, Nathan Rickson, what does attachment? How would
you do? Is there a way of observing when attachment
is I mean, what does it look like? Is they're
right and the wrong? And when can you tell when
(13:16):
there's a problem with attachment?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
There's it's usually you know, you can see a bond
between the baby and the significant person. It doesn't have
to be the mother, like you know, the baby's going
to bond and have that attachment figure with whoever talks
to them the most. Not you know, they don't care
whether they're related or male or female. But usually it's
mum who's talking the most, so you'll see that attachment
because they start to attune to each other, they start
(13:41):
to predict each other, you know. You know, there's a
little simple things like the baby stops crying when the
mother approaches, or the program and a keg of our approaches,
the keg of us seems to know what things to
do to work that the baby wants. You know, they
start to be able to interpret their cues. It might
just be that the baby, your baby likes them to
be like winded, patted on the back, or they like
(14:01):
to be walked around, or they just start to pick
up on those things.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Does that make it a bit more challenging sometimes for
I don't want to generalize and say dads, but the
other parent, because you know, the baby's crying, I don't
know what to do with it, and mum comes near
and all of a sudden it stops. It's like, oh.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Great, yeah, And it can be very easy to if
one is doing most of the parenting, to just sort
of leave it to them, you know that that that
they've got it. But I mean, the baby only needs
one attachment figure in the first year. It's fine for
dad to be the secondary attachment figure. Dad doesn't have
to try and compete with that main primary care giver.
You know, day can enjoy that second relationship of you know,
(14:38):
being the cool good cop. You don't have to. You
don't have to. The attachment is being done by the mother.
That's you know, the brain and who really needs one
attachment and so you're a bonus. So I just enjoy
the baby. You're not in a you're not under any
threat or you can't going to sort of do anything wrong.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That's where is that where grandparents you know, we get
it off, get off lightly because all care and no
responsibility sort of thing. Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I mean that first year of life is really about
the baby feeling adored and about language. You know about
research wise, it's about language. So the more language they hear,
the more of their brain comes online. That the more
of the frontal cortexts or else. So basically you could
just summarize your dance to and the first year, adore
your baby and talk to them at every possible minute.
(15:24):
The more minute, the word, more words you get in
per day, the better their outcomes are. So use sports
commentary even when you're just beside the baby. Just describe
what they're doing. Oh look, and he's putting the sum
up to his mouth and oh yeah, he's using saliva
to try and dissolve as this. Just describe what the
baby's doing because you're surrounding them in language, and there's
nothing better you could do. It doesn't matter if you
do Homer Simpson impersonations because the baby in the first
(15:46):
year of life doesn't really understand. They just know you're
engaging them with language. So you just just adore them
and immerse them in lots of language. Two languages are
possible if you've got any to Mary throw that in
as well.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, So where do people go wrong with it?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Then? Well, when you have big long there's four different
types of attachment. One's disorganized. That's the people who abuse
their kids. You know, we unfortunately have a whole cohort
of people that want to offen up the baby and stuff,
and we have horrific rates of you know, child murder
and stuff. In New Zealand. There is a cohort of
people that abuse their children. Right, So that's called disorganized attachment.
(16:20):
That really screws the person up because the person who
is supposed to be loving them is destroying them. The
other is for it. The other one at the other
end of secure attachment. Luckily, most people get that, about
seventy six percent get that secure attachment. That's what you want.
You just feel secure that your parents there for you
and they've got your back, and you're good, you're safe,
you can trust. And then the other two in the middle.
One's ambivalent and one's anxious. So ambivalent is where you've
(16:43):
got caregivers that are there, inconsistent, but they don't really
connect with you. They don't. They might be postal, a depression,
they might have just had a distant mother themselves, but
they just don't really seem to know how to connect
with the baby. They say the baby is a thing,
and there's just a disconnect, but they do they still
run through all the procedures. So that's an ambivalent attachment style.
So that because their attachment style forms the basis for
(17:04):
all of the relations ships you're going to have. Ever,
that means that present carries forward ambivalence into their relationships.
I thought they could be a bit find it hard
to connect with people. Yeah, difficult, because yeah, anxious. The
other one is where you have a caregiver that knows
how to connect with you and love you and adore you.
But they don't do it consistently. They disappear, So that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Might be anxiety is on part of the baby, is it?
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yeah? Yeah, when you're get an anxious attachment style because
you're a caregiver that you love an a doll, it's suddenly,
without warning, disappears. So caregivers that aren't consistently there, Mum
and dad are swapping around their babies looked after by
Nanda this day, Auntie that day. You know, Mum's will
there for long periods of time. You often see it
with a drug addiction. You know, when mum's sober, she's available, loving,
(17:52):
and then you know Thursday, Friday and Saturdays is pasted
and unavailable. Baby gathers in an anxious attachment style.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Can babies depending so say her parents got the same
sort of attached style if the parent it behaves similarly
to each child. Can children still form different types of
attachment based on their own sort of wirings?
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Absolutely, you do. No no children. No child has the
same childhood as anybody else. No one else really live
and lives in the same household as anybody else. You know,
your brothers and sisters. I know they technically did, but honestly,
their childhood are so different for each person. You know
that the genes that make you up are completely different.
Unless you're di identical twins. You've had completely different experiences.
(18:38):
Your parents were at completely different places when you were born.
You know, there was different levels of finances and stress
and level of knowledge and so many different things going on.
That absolutely a love a different attachment. You might have
a pre you might be predisposed, say to having secure
attachment because you've received secure attachment. So it doesn't mean
all your kids will Yeah you're predisposed to anxious then
(19:01):
you might, but you know you're predisposed to. It doesn't
mean all the kids will have anxious attachment though, depends
on what's happening when they're born and how well they're
responded to.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So, I mean, how much of an how much of
an impact in terms, let's let's just say talk about
one form of attachment, anxious attachment?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Yep, how much?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
How does that affect someone's life going? You know, but
can it be overcome?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Absolutely it can be overcome. It can be changed at anytime.
There's a whole industry around, so you know, working out
what your attachment style is and how you work if
that as an adult to basically you know, heal that,
so yes, you can flex it. What was the first
part of that question.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Sir, I've forgotten? Can you know? That's no? I said,
let's focus on anxious attachment. If you if you, if
you have formed that sort of if that's your the
first formative years, how do you overcome that and can
it be overcome?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, you have a sathing you can overcome it.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
It just means if you don't overcome it, if you
just go through life for them anxious or an avoidant
attachment style, you're just tech way more prining to mental
illness or lower quality of life, difficulty and relationships. Things
not quite gelling properly.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
When it comes to people having issues in their lives
of mental health, I mean there's much of it traceable
back to those first three years, I mean generalizations, but
maybe I should say how much of that is trace general.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
With a term as much as like mental health because
it's so you know, broad, yes, mental health, don't we
you know, we all have good and bad feelings, so
we have mental health. But when we talk about mental health,
we're talking about more severe mental health. Like I get
a little bit depressed sometimes, but never have depression. I
get more anxiety than depression. I don't think I've ever
had depression, you know, but as a human being, of course,
(20:47):
I'm sometimes really sad. So yeah, when you talk about
certainly the early years can have a big impact because
your attachment style is at the base of everything. But
it's just so so multifaceted your mental health, you know,
so it's weighed up with your resiliency factors. Like you
and I could both experience the same risk factor, but
(21:07):
you've got a wife, and you live next door to
your brother, and both your parents are still alive, and
you know, and then I have the same thing. I
work with you there, and I have exactly the same
risk factor. But I'm the only person in my family
that's in this in this city. You know, my brother
died a year ago. You know, those sorts of.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I mean, is it possible as well? Can parents recognize
can they recognize where things might be going wrong? And
even you know, so you might say, you know, your
parenting style hasn't changed, and you've got you know, the
first child's got a secure attachment but the can parents
recognize when a baby is not forming the right sort
(21:45):
of attachment despite their best best efforts.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah, there is often signs, you know, the baby, the
baby is always trying to communicate what they need. So
the baby probably becomes a lot more demanding and a
lot more cleaning because they try to get that attachment.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, would that be a and detachment where they can't
be like that? I mean, would would they behave differently
with the act? I know it's getting sort of into
the weeds a bit with.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Well, because everyone's got their own temperament. You know, you're
born with that temperament, so you're going to respond according
to how your temperament is of those styles differently. Yeah,
it just means that things aren't yelling completely. There's not
just us I heard them are wife, there's a little
paradise for everything just sinks into place like you described
with your wife. You know that's what my wife just
you know, easily move into this beautiful reciprocal response.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I be.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
But it's not like that for everybody.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, what about I mean, if is it possible that
one parent might recognize it as an issue safe mums
struggling or with you know with things. I mean, when
would you recognize that there's going to be a long
term problem for your child in terms of the way
those first two or three years agoing.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
No probably and retro vision, you know, like looking back
when they're three. It takes a lot to screw it up.
You know, you've got and I said that you've got
the first six months, but you've got the first three
years really and you've only got to have good enough attachment.
You don't have to be great. What the pattern you
basically see in the literature, So if someone has an issue,
it's like postninal depression. They if they say that I'm
(23:17):
finding this really hard and I'm struggling, and they get
any support, then their children have the same outcomes as
people who didn't have postinal depression. So we're in the
research you get the really bad outcomes. There's people that
experience those things but have no access to resources or anything,
or don't tell anybody and they're isolated. Then you get
negative outcomes. They don't get any support, they don't have
(23:39):
the behaviors changed. They're left sitting at home steering at
the wall instead of talking to the baby. And that
has been ramifications for the baby for the rest of
their life on the text pat because of that in
our first Golden year. So what I'm saying is there's
no shame in things like postnal depression. That's a biologically
driven thing that cannot be controlled. You know. It's about
it's about getting support for those things and making sure
that we fund those things and recognized.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I sometimes feel when we have these discussions, you know,
it can to sort of place the spotlight on something
where you know, new parents be thinking, oh, I'll better
think about attachment. But really it's just about I don't know,
recognizing that things can go wrong, but don't stress about it.
If you're a parent who's excited about becoming a parent,
you know, unless you experience issues postpartment and all that
(24:23):
sort of thing, then hopefully just the law of nature
looks after a lot of this stuff, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah, that's right. And if you do experience that, she
don't be afraid to ask for help. I'm always saying,
it's not a weakness to us for help. It really
is a strength to know when to ask for help.
I remember when my daughter was born, the same one
I felt like, you know, because I've been the family,
babysitter and stuff and love babies. I've met other babies
that I fell in love with straight away, but because
I saw that personality when she was just straight out
(24:50):
of the womb, basically, I didn't feel like I really
had those gushing feelings of being madly in love with
her like I expected to have when she was born
until she was about four or five months old, because
I felt when she was born I loved her like
I would run into a building to save her life.
But I didn't love her because we didn't really know her. Yeah,
to get to know who she was.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Is that something? Is that something that is more common
for dads sometimes, you know, because you know mums, especially
if you know if mum's breastfeeding and taking you and
dad's I know, I'm dealing with cliches here, but it's
quite common. The reason they're tliches, it's because it's common.
Because so if mum's going to work, sorry, if mum's
(25:33):
looking at for the baby and dad's going to work
and things. Is it something where that's something dads worry
about forming that attachment as well.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I think it's less and less about the gender difference.
It really is just about your childhood experience and stuff. Yeah,
did you grow up with someone shoved the baby at
us go and change their necky?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
You know?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Did you have to look after a little kid for
two hours even so you had to take responsibility for it?
Did you ever kick those you know, neural structures in
And if you didn't, then you can worry about the thing.
I've never attached to a baby before.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Is that why some dads are like, look, absolutely dorm
own kids, But I don't really care about anyone else's.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well I just might not be gushy
all other kids, you know, and I aren't really I'm
thrilled by kids and kids are thing. But there's lots
of wine like that as well. Only fifty people breed you,
So I've got got lots of female friends that I
think kids are quite disgusting were not? Yeah, children, Yeah,
(26:33):
and I can totally see that point of view.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, I mean it's one of the common things that
dads would have, or the or the or the non
sort of you know, there's the primary attachment sort of
geargiver that you talk about. Let's I don't know what
the terminology is, but what does it mean? If you're
not the primary is it a worry that some parents have,
(26:55):
is that they worry that they're not going to form
a close as close as an attachment as they'd like to.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I mean, there is definitely the primary key giver and
they're a secondary caregiver. You don't know, both stay at
home generally, but develop mentally wise, that's just how we
develop because you have to have sort of one that's
the basis of your of all your relationships and your brain.
And then from one you have two, and from two
you have four, and from four your fates. So it
just has to be one. And like I said that,
but you know Dad was at home the whole time
(27:23):
and Moe was going to work, the primary together would
be dead. So no, you don't have to be the
primary keeger. If you're not the primary caregiver so yet
you're the one that's mainly staying with the baby and
you're the one that's taking leave and stuff, then yes,
you've got to absolutely get that attachment. If you're not,
you're the secondary Cara, then you just get to enjoy
the baby. Remember us grandparents go and get this wonderful
(27:44):
attachment way better than you, fellas get usually because we're
really good at it by the time of grandparents and
in the months a week. So it's not about time,
it's about it's about quality and about Like I said,
I've got a new grandson who's like seven weeks old,
and I have I've got a few grandchildren now, but
I noticed things that work. Like my first grandson said
to me, his earliest memory ever is me singing to
(28:04):
hod and earlier to them artist.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Wow, that's a merry Christmas song, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
That's that.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Saying sorry I was thanking of the Christmas number.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
But because I know that singing is elongated sounds and
the brain will recognize that more rapidly. So when I'm
going to visit my grandchild now, I sing that song
to him, the new one, and he does instantly claps.
Who I am. I'm helping him predict how that is.
I go there that often. I have a big impact
when I go there because I'm power and I speak.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
He comes super grand dude. Yeah, hey, we'll be back
in just a moment. Would love to take your cause
if you've got any questions as well, just around forming
attachment with the children or maybe even with yourself. If
you're worried about attachment and how you can overcome any
issues you might have had when you were younger, then
you can give us a call. I put that quite clumsily,
but you know what I mean. It's twenty one minutes
to six News Talks.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
He'd be.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yes, welcome back. This is the weekend Collective Parents Squad
with Nathan Wallace's in neuroscience educated talking about the importance
of early attachment in those early years and taking your
calls as well. Peter, Hello, Hi.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Couple of questions. Firstly, if a mother, say, has one
child and then has a miscarriage, would it be quite
considerable fall out for so the other child when they
have a miscarriage.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yes, I mean it's going to depend on the impact
of the miscarriage, you know, because that's a devastating thing.
But there can be varying degrees of devastation. It can
throw some people right into a deep depression. And it'll
depend what the age gap is. You know, if the
child was already say two, and then mum had a miscarriage,
then most of that significant brain development that data has
sort of happened by two, whereas if it was only
(30:01):
a nine month gap and the baby's only nine months old,
and then mum goes in to a heavy period of
depression for a long period of time. They can certainly
have an impact.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
And then the other thing that I've noticed is parents
who say both the youngest or both the oldest, and
my observations are children. You know, when it's been three
children and people have a middle parent, they seem far
more attentive and flexible.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Middle parents.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Yes, well, in their own family, they are middle parents,
so they weren't the oldest or the youngest has no
experience of looking after children.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, and the eldest is just sort of you know,
I'm taught to be bossy. Whereas that you do see,
middle children are tend to have better relationship skills, so
they've gone to relationship jobs, teaching and nursing and stuff.
Because if you're the eldest, you have to have authority.
If you're the youngest, you have to listen to authority.
But if you're in the middle, you have to do both.
So you have a you're probably better communication skills, better
(31:01):
relationship skills. So it probably does translate into a wee
bit easy apparenting.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, thank you, Thanks Peter, Actually, I was just wondering, Nathan,
are there personality types that sort of attached to whether
you are the oldest, the middle or the youngest.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Or there's a statistically the thing for the eldest child,
certainly they are in a bit more money and stuff.
The rest of it though, tends to be psychological, you know, research.
It's a bit like star signs. You know, it could
be a handy structure because you do see it, you know,
just because it's not you know, it's only correlative in
the research, So there's correlations. There's not really strong research
(31:37):
to show you're going to be like this if you're
a youngest child, because we know it's only one factor
amongst a million.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It's often you hear people say, oh, are you the
youngest or that that figures that's right.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
That's what I mean. We like, we see it, so
there is some something in there, but not statistically you know,
children two, three and four having the same outcomes.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I think, I mean, just to wrap it up, I
think probably for me, if I was someone who was
a parent or going to be parent, what what can
you do if you're one of those parents who you know,
you just struggle with that connection with your child because
for some reason you're just trying to work out, you know,
who is the side, you know what I mean, Because
(32:18):
it's not a choice necessarily you make. Sometimes it's just
the way you're wired.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
That's right. So don't put yourself up about it. Just
you know you've had this baby dedicated to doing it,
even twenty minutes a day where you turn off every
distraction and put yourself with your baby. And when there
are nappies change and they had to feed and stuff,
there's no jobs that they're done and their needs are met.
(32:43):
And turn off all distractions and get rid of the
cell phone and turn it off and stuff, and just
look into your baby's eyes and match their pace and
do nothing except for imitate the baby.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Sounds like pretty simple advice, doesn't it. Actually, as you
mentioned that, I suddenly thought, of course, oh the bloomin
old cell phones is never far from the conversation, is it.
But put down your.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Cell phone, actually turning that off the name for twin
two minutes, My job is just going to be looking
at my baby.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Is that an issue do you think for young parents
as the blooming's cell phone?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah? Absolutely is. My mate's just finished a PhD on
how cell phones are interfacing without development, So you're seeing
it as a nationwide, as a worldwide trend. Come into
infancy tend to have shorter concentration spans because parents are
talking for less time before they turn to the screen.
More disturbingly, there's contraptions to put on the prem and stuff.
To have a screen spoked in front of your kid.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Oh God, to me, that would be like putting them
on some sort of drug. Really, it just seems that
the last thing you should bloom and well do.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, but if parents don't know that, you know, they
just know what the baby is quiet when you put
the screen in front and they like it. They don't
still of have the education to know they like lollies too,
But you don't get to get so.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Actually funny enough, if you're going to distill anything out
of this conversation, it's put down that bloody cell phone
and don't.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Give it to your kids either, would be a good thing.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, great to talk to you again, Nathan, Thanks so
much mate, really appreciate it again. Okay, there we go.
That is that's Nathan Wallace And if you've missed any
of the previous how you can go and check it
out on our podcast as well, and we'll be back
to rap sport with supermanahself. Christopher Eve will be joining
us lots to talk about with Chris, so we'll be
back with you in just the tickets twelve and a
(34:23):
half minutes to see.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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