August 2, 2025 • 13 mins
The Government has announced they will revise the Conservation Act to allow for a fresh wave of concessions on DoC land, as well as increasing the charge for foreign visiters to access the more popular sites.
Forest and Bird have claimed these changes are not conservation reform, but rather "conservation retreat".
Forest and Bird Chief Executive Nicola Toki joins Tim Beveridge to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks dB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
So the government has announced that they are going to
revise the Conservation Act to allow for a fresh wave
of concessions on dock land, as well as increasing a
charge making it putting a charge for foreign visitors, increasing
it to access more popular sites. Forest and Bird have
claimed these changes are not a conservation reform but rather,
(00:30):
I think the words they used a conservation retreat and
it would essentially imply the government as selling off culture,
culturally significant land, and Forest and Bird Chief Executive Nikola
Tokey joins me, Now, good.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Afternoon, good a, how are you good.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So we've got concessions. So what's the concern for you
about this?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I think the concessions regime we've had in New Zealand
in terms of you know, running business operations on public
conservation land has absolutely needed, you know, needed improvement and
you know, so I have no issue with improvements in
a way that support you know, the ongoing protection of
these places that we all love and love to go
(01:14):
out and play in. Same for charging international visitors to
some of those real pressure point sites. You know, wasn't
that long ago that I was working for the Department
of Conservation. I was responsible for the likes of Arda
Humant Cook National Park and in the height of summer
it was pretty challenging. So that's not an issue. I
think the bit that I just want New Zealanders to
(01:34):
be aware of is this little bit didn't get a
lot of press this weekend, but the government are very
clear that they are now also looking at potentially disposing
of or selling public conservation land if they so deemed
fit and well, I suppose it's a bit bizarre to
me and most New Zealanders I know is hang on
(01:56):
a minute, nobody campaigned on that, nobody voted for that.
Where did that come from? So you know, in terms
of the way they're we kind of identify ourselves as
Kiwi's I would say that's probably a bridge to for
for most people.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
The actually funny thing is the thing that stood out
for me if I was to put on my conservation hat,
it's actually the opening sentence, which just is it the
language of the press relief. So the headline for the
press release from Tim of Portucker and the Prime Minister
as well is unleashing economic growth on one third of
New Zealand's land, which does kind of sound quite aggressive,
(02:34):
doesn't it, which would make me go, who whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa whoa. Not that I'm against it, but yeah, because
you know, we have we have businesses that operate on
conservation land. Is there something about the tenor of the
discussion that also makes a bit nervous?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I mean I'm nervous, raised eyebrow, a little bit, a
little bit amused. I think. I think, Look, everybody wants
a good, thriving economy, right, and the things to be
lost in translation here is that for generations, you know,
think about all the way back to even one hundred
years ago. But the tourism industry in New Zealand predicated
(03:11):
on people coming here either you know, locally, nationally and
particularly internationally to see and enjoy these beautiful places. Is
the driver and underpins the economic prosperity of this country.
You don't flog it off in a one term government
because you're that to panic. And you know, I guess
from my perspective, I've been understand for more than I
(03:31):
like to admit. And good, you know, governments should be
good environmental stuarts obviously, forests and bird would say that,
and equally they should be good economic stuarts. And if
you look at the numbers, the idea of flogging off
these places that drive our economic return, they don't stack up.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I think we are sort of a little bit in
the dark, aren't they? Aren't we? Because I mean, what's
your worst fear? We're not going to see a casino
in Melford sound.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Aren't we? Well, the problem is, and this is why
it's really ranging for New Zealanders in general. And if
I think about Florist and bird right, We've been around
a long time, well over one hundred years. We're a
really broad church, so we have members from all elements
of the political spectrum, and nobody likes the idea that
(04:21):
these places. I mean, I just spent the day yesterday
out in a conservation park kind of Lord of the
Rings country, not being particularly successful at hunting because I
was fielding interviews all day. But you know, that's part
of who we are and how we like to how
we like to engage, right, And I think that's the
problem because we're seeing this rolling mall of kind of
(04:45):
pulling back on environmental protections, these sort of law reforms
that leap up out of nowhere, and before you know it,
there's no public consultation. You don't get a chance to
have your say. And I'm a bit confused as someone
who's a political nerd, because National campaigned on local decision
making and local say on local places and then introduce
the Fast Track Act, which said, by the way that
(05:07):
we know environmental laws anymore worth respect to them, and
no locals will get to have a say. So I'm
really confused.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
But so you're not so worried about necessarily an overhaul
of the concessions. It's more about the potential for sale.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, I mean concessions absolutely. You know, like many things
you have to constantly improve to be able to grow,
you know, the work, the economy. But what's missing here
is this government. You know you you've probably heard me
say lots and lots and many others that you know.
It's effectively declared war on nature. And I think that's
(05:40):
hard for keywives, no matter who they support, because nature
is such a key part of who we are. To
the clear war on leisure, to the clear war on us,
it doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Doesn't feel like we're there yet, to be fair, But
I guess it's is it the fact that we don't
know enough about what I mean legislation. Surely it goes
through some sort of select committee process and we learn
a bit more about it.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
But yeah, I mean that's I mean, I live in
this stuff right down Donkey Deep and the and the
constant you know, policy reforms and proposals that are kind
of coming in us like a bit of an avalanche.
And I think that's what worries me because in New
Zealand's are pretty egalitarian, democracy loving society and we're a
(06:22):
bit of a sticky beak. We like to be able
to have our sale things that are going on around us.
It has been you know for my organization, who are
right in the middle of it. It's even hard for
us to keep up on it all every day. It's like, well,
here's another go. And I think, you know, it's fine
to look at legislation. It's okay to say is this
(06:43):
still the right thing? But you've got to focus on
what people of this country kind of hinge themselves.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's more about the process to you. You're just nervous
as as announcements being made and we you know, we
haven't seen a lot of discussion about this and what's
what's it going to look like because we are sort
of we've suffering from a bit of uncertainty apart from
some colorful sort of rhetoric about economic growth and jobs
and stuff.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, I mean what we can see. So we've already
seen the documentation that that is kind of doing the
rounds in terms of what the government is proposing and
what they're not telling the public. They're cravy to go
out there and say we'll charge more for international tourism
and tourists coming here, and who wouldn't agree with that,
But what they're not saying is that they are proposing
(07:29):
the most significant reforms to our protection of conservation land
that we have seen in generations, and they're going to
do it so fast that we're not even going to
notice it happened until it's happened, and then it will
be too late. So you can imagine we are rightly
jumping up and down and trying our best to let
keys know, do we need.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
To get more understanding of the different types of conservation land,
because you know there are national you know there's national parks,
conservation parks, science nature reserves, and you know we all
imagine I think part of the problem is when it
comes to this discussion, is that when you say conservation land,
most of us imagine our most pressure stuff. But you,
the spartan of conservation is responsible for a lot of
(08:10):
land which isn't quite as exciting as Milford sound. So
do we need to do We need to get a
bit more clarity about what's happening.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Where I couldn't agree with you more so, what I
would say is there's been a bit of kind of
a little bit lazy, little bit cheeky rhetoric about stewardship land.
So you will have heard a lot of talk about that.
It's just I mean, we had to write to the
Prime Minister because Minister Willis was out there in the
media saying I don't worry about stewards hipland it's just
(08:38):
scrubby land. It's steward of land just got caught in
a bureaucratic bungle that never got classified and most of
it was recommended to be put into national parks like
back in the eighties. Right, So if you want to
look across the landscape, I think it's a I think
it's a good question to ask, is you know how
much value is there on. You know, in terms of biodiversity,
(08:58):
then you have to do the science. And one thing
and I mentioned this to the Prime Minister when I
meet with them a couple of weeks ago. You know,
I take heart from the fact that this coalition government
agreed that their decisions would be evidence based. So if
you are going to look at conservation land, then you
better be investing quite significantly and assessing and understanding it
(09:19):
in order that you can make evidence based decisions. But
the other thing I would say is the bit that
you know, I've got two horrifying statistics that I trot
out in public work. The first one is pretty obvious
for someone in my position, that is four thousand threatened
species in New Zealand. We've got the highest proportion of
threatened species in the world and a thousand of our
four thousand are sitting right on the cliff edge, right.
(09:41):
But the statistic that's even worse than that, in my view,
is every two years, lank Care Research carry out a
really good piece of social science around New Zealander's perceptions
of the environment and the present. The proportion of New
Zealanders who think that our wildlife is doing okay out
there is going up out of time when we're losing
it faster than ever. So you know, we've got this
(10:03):
both national and international responsible who to protect these world
that defines us all.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
What about people are listening who think that this is
all about doing nothing? You know, because around the world,
you know the Kruger National Park, they have eco tourism
and game lodges. Australia has got tourism infrastructure, We've got
ski resorts. So I mean, what do we do if
we actually I mean, is where are we going with
this in terms of resisting further development and economic opportunity?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Well, I mean we've already got opportunities like that, and
I would argue that, for example, if you think about
the hunting sector, I know for a fact there's a
keen hunter myself that most international hunters aren't necessarily going
to go on public conservation and standing them at sitting
the hut. They're going to pay through the nose to
sit in a beautiful lodge on private land and pop
a tire off the back paddock. You know.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
So well, but we've got there, and we got the Chateau,
which is a hotel which is under the conservation land.
I mean would you be opposed to hotels popping up
in certain places?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Or we already have we already have fairly significant developments
on public conservation then, so that I guess one of
the things that I quite often say to my team is,
you know, what is the problem we're trying to solve here?
And this just doesn't feel particularly well thought through or
reflect what I know New Zealanders really care about, which is,
you know, these public conservation lends that belong to all
(11:24):
of us and they're not for anyone else to flog
off on a kind of brain idea.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I guess, you know, with concessions, I mean, but you're
not are you opposed to any development of allowing you
more infrastructure around visitors coming to some of these valuable
pieces of real start if I could put it that way?
Sorry to put it well.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I mean I think that you have to remember I
was aologist and ecologists by trade, right, And you know,
if you think about that's a that's a really complex
question because it will depend are the cakapool there?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Right? So I think that's where not being kind of
fast loose with environmental reforms is really important, because you know,
you feel we've got one of the highest rates of
extinction in the world. We don't want to go back
to that legacy too many of us who worked for
too long to bring these seaties back from the brink.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
What are your conversations what was your last conversation with
Chris Fluxen like in terms of you've got this announcement,
but are you I mean, are you confident you would
continue to have a dialogue and form them on some
of the cautions.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, I mean one of the privileges of my role
and you know, being being at the leadership of an
environmental interviewer, particularly forest and boders. We were set up
one hundred years ago to be independent, so we don't
mind what color jersey you were. We just want to
work with decision makers to ensure good outcomes for nature.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Hey, by the way, what were you hunting for?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I was very unsuccessfully hunting for deer, and I saw
one and as well as a tar. But by the
time I'd got through my interviews, there were neary idea
to scene with all that racket.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Ah, fair enough. Well, by the way, you're not one
of those are your bow and arrow or gun?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
I'm not clever enough.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Of that at this point.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I'm no kitnas.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Okay and good stuff. Hey, I appreciate you your time, Nicola.
That's it, and enjoy the rest of you happening. Good
luck with the hunting that is Nicola Turkey. She's Forrest
and Bird chief executive.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks dB.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
So the government has announced that they are going to
revise the Conservation Act to allow for a fresh wave
of concessions on dock land, as well as increasing a
charge making it putting a charge for foreign visitors, increasing
it to access more popular sites. Forest and Bird have
claimed these changes are not a conservation reform but rather,
(00:30):
I think the words they used a conservation retreat and
it would essentially imply the government as selling off culture,
culturally significant land, and Forest and Bird Chief Executive Nikola
Tokey joins me, Now, good.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Afternoon, good a, how are you good.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So we've got concessions. So what's the concern for you
about this?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I think the concessions regime we've had in New Zealand
in terms of you know, running business operations on public
conservation land has absolutely needed, you know, needed improvement and
you know, so I have no issue with improvements in
a way that support you know, the ongoing protection of
these places that we all love and love to go
(01:14):
out and play in. Same for charging international visitors to
some of those real pressure point sites. You know, wasn't
that long ago that I was working for the Department
of Conservation. I was responsible for the likes of Arda
Humant Cook National Park and in the height of summer
it was pretty challenging. So that's not an issue. I
think the bit that I just want New Zealanders to
(01:34):
be aware of is this little bit didn't get a
lot of press this weekend, but the government are very
clear that they are now also looking at potentially disposing
of or selling public conservation land if they so deemed
fit and well, I suppose it's a bit bizarre to
me and most New Zealanders I know is hang on
(01:56):
a minute, nobody campaigned on that, nobody voted for that.
Where did that come from? So you know, in terms
of the way they're we kind of identify ourselves as
Kiwi's I would say that's probably a bridge to for
for most people.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
The actually funny thing is the thing that stood out
for me if I was to put on my conservation hat,
it's actually the opening sentence, which just is it the
language of the press relief. So the headline for the
press release from Tim of Portucker and the Prime Minister
as well is unleashing economic growth on one third of
New Zealand's land, which does kind of sound quite aggressive,
(02:34):
doesn't it, which would make me go, who whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa whoa. Not that I'm against it, but yeah, because
you know, we have we have businesses that operate on
conservation land. Is there something about the tenor of the
discussion that also makes a bit nervous?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I mean I'm nervous, raised eyebrow, a little bit, a
little bit amused. I think. I think, Look, everybody wants
a good, thriving economy, right, and the things to be
lost in translation here is that for generations, you know,
think about all the way back to even one hundred
years ago. But the tourism industry in New Zealand predicated
(03:11):
on people coming here either you know, locally, nationally and
particularly internationally to see and enjoy these beautiful places. Is
the driver and underpins the economic prosperity of this country.
You don't flog it off in a one term government
because you're that to panic. And you know, I guess
from my perspective, I've been understand for more than I
(03:31):
like to admit. And good, you know, governments should be
good environmental stuarts obviously, forests and bird would say that,
and equally they should be good economic stuarts. And if
you look at the numbers, the idea of flogging off
these places that drive our economic return, they don't stack up.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I think we are sort of a little bit in
the dark, aren't they? Aren't we? Because I mean, what's
your worst fear? We're not going to see a casino
in Melford sound.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Aren't we? Well, the problem is, and this is why
it's really ranging for New Zealanders in general. And if
I think about Florist and bird right, We've been around
a long time, well over one hundred years. We're a
really broad church, so we have members from all elements
of the political spectrum, and nobody likes the idea that
(04:21):
these places. I mean, I just spent the day yesterday
out in a conservation park kind of Lord of the
Rings country, not being particularly successful at hunting because I
was fielding interviews all day. But you know, that's part
of who we are and how we like to how
we like to engage, right, And I think that's the
problem because we're seeing this rolling mall of kind of
(04:45):
pulling back on environmental protections, these sort of law reforms
that leap up out of nowhere, and before you know it,
there's no public consultation. You don't get a chance to
have your say. And I'm a bit confused as someone
who's a political nerd, because National campaigned on local decision
making and local say on local places and then introduce
the Fast Track Act, which said, by the way that
(05:07):
we know environmental laws anymore worth respect to them, and
no locals will get to have a say. So I'm
really confused.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
But so you're not so worried about necessarily an overhaul
of the concessions. It's more about the potential for sale.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, I mean concessions absolutely. You know, like many things
you have to constantly improve to be able to grow,
you know, the work, the economy. But what's missing here
is this government. You know you you've probably heard me
say lots and lots and many others that you know.
It's effectively declared war on nature. And I think that's
(05:40):
hard for keywives, no matter who they support, because nature
is such a key part of who we are. To
the clear war on leisure, to the clear war on us,
it doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Doesn't feel like we're there yet, to be fair, But
I guess it's is it the fact that we don't
know enough about what I mean legislation. Surely it goes
through some sort of select committee process and we learn
a bit more about it.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
But yeah, I mean that's I mean, I live in
this stuff right down Donkey Deep and the and the
constant you know, policy reforms and proposals that are kind
of coming in us like a bit of an avalanche.
And I think that's what worries me because in New
Zealand's are pretty egalitarian, democracy loving society and we're a
(06:22):
bit of a sticky beak. We like to be able
to have our sale things that are going on around us.
It has been you know for my organization, who are
right in the middle of it. It's even hard for
us to keep up on it all every day. It's like, well,
here's another go. And I think, you know, it's fine
to look at legislation. It's okay to say is this
(06:43):
still the right thing? But you've got to focus on
what people of this country kind of hinge themselves.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's more about the process to you. You're just nervous
as as announcements being made and we you know, we
haven't seen a lot of discussion about this and what's
what's it going to look like because we are sort
of we've suffering from a bit of uncertainty apart from
some colorful sort of rhetoric about economic growth and jobs
and stuff.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, I mean what we can see. So we've already
seen the documentation that that is kind of doing the
rounds in terms of what the government is proposing and
what they're not telling the public. They're cravy to go
out there and say we'll charge more for international tourism
and tourists coming here, and who wouldn't agree with that,
But what they're not saying is that they are proposing
(07:29):
the most significant reforms to our protection of conservation land
that we have seen in generations, and they're going to
do it so fast that we're not even going to
notice it happened until it's happened, and then it will
be too late. So you can imagine we are rightly
jumping up and down and trying our best to let
keys know, do we need.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
To get more understanding of the different types of conservation land,
because you know there are national you know there's national parks,
conservation parks, science nature reserves, and you know we all
imagine I think part of the problem is when it
comes to this discussion, is that when you say conservation land,
most of us imagine our most pressure stuff. But you,
the spartan of conservation is responsible for a lot of
(08:10):
land which isn't quite as exciting as Milford sound. So
do we need to do We need to get a
bit more clarity about what's happening.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Where I couldn't agree with you more so, what I
would say is there's been a bit of kind of
a little bit lazy, little bit cheeky rhetoric about stewardship land.
So you will have heard a lot of talk about that.
It's just I mean, we had to write to the
Prime Minister because Minister Willis was out there in the
media saying I don't worry about stewards hipland it's just
(08:38):
scrubby land. It's steward of land just got caught in
a bureaucratic bungle that never got classified and most of
it was recommended to be put into national parks like
back in the eighties. Right, So if you want to
look across the landscape, I think it's a I think
it's a good question to ask, is you know how
much value is there on. You know, in terms of biodiversity,
(08:58):
then you have to do the science. And one thing
and I mentioned this to the Prime Minister when I
meet with them a couple of weeks ago. You know,
I take heart from the fact that this coalition government
agreed that their decisions would be evidence based. So if
you are going to look at conservation land, then you
better be investing quite significantly and assessing and understanding it
(09:19):
in order that you can make evidence based decisions. But
the other thing I would say is the bit that
you know, I've got two horrifying statistics that I trot
out in public work. The first one is pretty obvious
for someone in my position, that is four thousand threatened
species in New Zealand. We've got the highest proportion of
threatened species in the world and a thousand of our
four thousand are sitting right on the cliff edge, right.
(09:41):
But the statistic that's even worse than that, in my view,
is every two years, lank Care Research carry out a
really good piece of social science around New Zealander's perceptions
of the environment and the present. The proportion of New
Zealanders who think that our wildlife is doing okay out
there is going up out of time when we're losing
it faster than ever. So you know, we've got this
(10:03):
both national and international responsible who to protect these world
that defines us all.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
What about people are listening who think that this is
all about doing nothing? You know, because around the world,
you know the Kruger National Park, they have eco tourism
and game lodges. Australia has got tourism infrastructure, We've got
ski resorts. So I mean, what do we do if
we actually I mean, is where are we going with
this in terms of resisting further development and economic opportunity?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Well, I mean we've already got opportunities like that, and
I would argue that, for example, if you think about
the hunting sector, I know for a fact there's a
keen hunter myself that most international hunters aren't necessarily going
to go on public conservation and standing them at sitting
the hut. They're going to pay through the nose to
sit in a beautiful lodge on private land and pop
a tire off the back paddock. You know.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
So well, but we've got there, and we got the Chateau,
which is a hotel which is under the conservation land.
I mean would you be opposed to hotels popping up
in certain places?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Or we already have we already have fairly significant developments
on public conservation then, so that I guess one of
the things that I quite often say to my team is,
you know, what is the problem we're trying to solve here?
And this just doesn't feel particularly well thought through or
reflect what I know New Zealanders really care about, which is,
you know, these public conservation lends that belong to all
(11:24):
of us and they're not for anyone else to flog
off on a kind of brain idea.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I guess, you know, with concessions, I mean, but you're
not are you opposed to any development of allowing you
more infrastructure around visitors coming to some of these valuable
pieces of real start if I could put it that way?
Sorry to put it well.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I mean I think that you have to remember I
was aologist and ecologists by trade, right, And you know,
if you think about that's a that's a really complex
question because it will depend are the cakapool there?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Right? So I think that's where not being kind of
fast loose with environmental reforms is really important, because you know,
you feel we've got one of the highest rates of
extinction in the world. We don't want to go back
to that legacy too many of us who worked for
too long to bring these seaties back from the brink.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
What are your conversations what was your last conversation with
Chris Fluxen like in terms of you've got this announcement,
but are you I mean, are you confident you would
continue to have a dialogue and form them on some
of the cautions.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, I mean one of the privileges of my role
and you know, being being at the leadership of an
environmental interviewer, particularly forest and boders. We were set up
one hundred years ago to be independent, so we don't
mind what color jersey you were. We just want to
work with decision makers to ensure good outcomes for nature.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Hey, by the way, what were you hunting for?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I was very unsuccessfully hunting for deer, and I saw
one and as well as a tar. But by the
time I'd got through my interviews, there were neary idea
to scene with all that racket.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Ah, fair enough. Well, by the way, you're not one
of those are your bow and arrow or gun?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
I'm not clever enough.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Of that at this point.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I'm no kitnas.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Okay and good stuff. Hey, I appreciate you your time, Nicola.
That's it, and enjoy the rest of you happening. Good
luck with the hunting that is Nicola Turkey. She's Forrest
and Bird chief executive.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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