June 1, 2025 • 40 mins
Career progression is a significant thing to consider for most people - whether they could develop as much as they'd like at their current job, or if they would need to look elsewhere.
So how can employers spot and support an employee who wants to progress?
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talksb.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
And welcome back to the Weekend Collective onton Beverage. If
you've missed any of the previous House by the way,
with the Last Hours with Greg Paine talking about well,
it's always about the science of movement and preventing injury
and backs and all that sort of thing biomechanist at Biasport.
You can go and check that out on the News
Talk SIPI website or iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective.
And same with Politics Centro where we chatted to Laura
(00:53):
mclur she's nat MP, you remember the one who she
held up an ai image of herself naked was blurred out,
of course, but to highlight the potential for what will
highlight the law change she wants to see made to
the revenge porn legislation. Interesting chat with her, but also
Mark Mitchell joined us, the police minister around the latest
to get together of the ah what's the word boy,
(01:17):
racist juvenile delinquents in live in and anyway, it was
interesting talk to interesting to see whether they follow that
up with a bit more urgency as he possibly hinted at.
But anyway, you can check those out on the News
Talks b website. Right now, it is time for Smart
Money and we're going to have a chat about well
a bunch of things around employee happiness and retention, including
(01:40):
things like career progression. Whether that's a significant thing for people,
whether they are it's something that's an important part of
keeping them happy in the workplace. I notice it in
the news. There was just the story that Joe Gilfillan
read out just now about job security and pay being
key factors for office workers pursuing new roles. There was
at serve our five hundred people from finance, accounting, it
(02:02):
technology finding sixty one percent of respond on would change
jobs for better pay. And I guess the question is,
if you're happy in your job, is it all about
the money? And what is the key to how can
employers look after employees and keep them happy that they
are not necessarily chasing the biggest bang for buck Anyway,
Todd Hamington is a new guest on the show. He's
(02:23):
the CEO of Chameleon Creator. There was a little hint
there with the choice of opening song, and he joins
us for Smart Money. Todd get a nice to meet
you man. Yeah too, good. Good. Tell us about your company.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yes, so I founded this company in New Zealand actually
about four years ago, and it's a learning design tool
that companies use to create digital content. TOM predominantly do
increase and enhance the capability of their staff, so you
can design learning content on it for all devices, and
(02:59):
we also beck that designer with a data and analytics
platform as well, so they can kind of report back
on the investment of learning within the business.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
It's about so growing people in the workplace and their knowledge.
I guess that's exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Right, absolutely so. So yeah, there's obviously we get to
work with some pretty impressive organizations in the space that
really do invest in their people. So probably have a
bit more of a rose tinted lens in regards to
you both. I guess there's every business has different challenges.
(03:35):
It's got it's unique DNA within it. But I mean
they're looking to either you know, retain their quality stuff
and enhance their existing stuff and lower that sort of
chin because obviously that's a plus sum game for all
businesses if they focus.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
On what do you what I mean, what do you so,
what do you think keeps people in the jobs that
they're in and keeps a happy workforce. I mean, obviously
you'll see it through the prism of the lens of
what you do as a business. But what have you
what have you learned in terms of what keeps people
happy in the workplace?
Speaker 3 (04:12):
I kind of got two perspectives. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well
these two factors there. There is the economic decision, which
I totally understand, and you know, the grass is greener.
That's another one is you know, they typically look at
the broad turn see what else is out there. And
the other one is just an environment. You know, there's
(04:32):
your work environment somewhere somewhere that you really cherish being
in and and does it cater for a good lifestyle
around that. So so yeah, that's where we typically work
as well as really kind of focusing on creating a
really I guess modernized learning environment for companies that invest
in their people, which is really cool.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
So what do you mean by a modernized learning environment?
You might have to go into a bit more detail
for us now for our listeners as well.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah sure, look, I guess it's really cool. So there's
a there's obviously movement now where businesses are operating extremely quickly,
so they're using L and D more as a competitive
advantage rather than just a check box exercise.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So L and D learning and development.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
That's right, learning and development. So we'll cut those off.
But yeah, I think there's a life cycle of ways
they deliver that. The common ones you know, span from
you know, arming their recruitment team with a really powerful
employee value proposition, so making sure that they're hiring the
right talent from day one. And then there's the onboarding
(05:41):
aspect of getting that speed to impacts, which to which
you know learning can significantly help with. And then there's
like things like de risking the business you know through compliance,
which we can unpack a little bit, but you know,
you want to reduce those big costly errors and legal
risks and health and safety issues and stuff like that
(06:02):
as well. So so ANDAST like I said, like you
get sort of a huge return on investment from that,
and you would retain staff. I think is a really
important one because it's not just about avoiding the costs,
it's about the compounding value of that because there's the
obvious financial savings you get, you're keeping their ip within
(06:24):
the business, you're growing.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, carry on.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah. I think the other two factors is the operational
aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
So, I mean, how did you end up getting involved
with what you're doing?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
So? I was originally a designer for a learning and
development company in Melbourne. Actually, so I'm guilty of going
abroad learning, up scaling myself and then coming back and
starting a tech company here in New Zealand. So, but
I was a designer and I was responsible for delivering
really large scale learning solutions for a lot of the
(07:02):
big brands across aus gravity in New Zealand. And yeah,
that's why we built our tool actually, because it's really
difficult to achieve there's a lot of moving parts in learning.
And it's not just you're not just building a static website.
You know, you're building a lot of moving parts. There's
a lot of assessments you have to report back to
the business.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
What sort of companies engage you guys to do what
you do?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, we work with mid to large enterprises predominantly like
a am Z bank min to ten. There's a lot
of retailers spec savors.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
So what's an example of what you do for minor ten?
What would they what would they be?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah, So I guess they came to us to solve
a problem of the speed of design, in particular designing training.
There it took them about sort of eight weeks to
deliver a learning module to the business.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
When yeah, okay, what about you've had I think the
Ministry of Health one of your clients as well.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yep, that's right, yep. So we've got a number of
government departments that create learning content and that's right through
you know, onboarding, compliance tools and system adoption, career progression,
learning leadership. So there's a really interesting content.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
And what do they report back to when it comes
to the career progression and what you're doing with them?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Well, I think, I think what a common problem with
career progression and that's sort of works its way back
into retaining good stuff I guess is people like to
see a good career pathway within their business that are
working within and that that helps that pretention aspect of
that type of cohort. But a good example, you know,
if you get a really high performer within the business
(08:43):
that's working there for three plus years and they get
promoted into a leadership possession. It's not always just as
simple as becoming a great people leader. And becoming a
force multiplier within the business. So they get to arm
their people with that progression through you know, enhancing their
leadership people leadership skills.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And so do you how does the program you do
help them step into that? Obviously, it's about helping them
step into a new role. It's one thing to be
a good sort of worker and have spent two or
three years in a company, but then to get them
into a position where they've got new skills. What do
you guys do in that space? How does that work?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah? Well, yeah, it depends on the organization. There's a
lot of learning designers that I guess approach the in
a different way, but they distribute e learning across multiple
locations on the mass and it's about personalizing that and
not sort of falling into the captain obvious trap when
(09:39):
it comes to the learning, which I think a lot
of people have any negative experience with typically, so and
personalizing it means something like, if you've been here for
four years and you've done the same compliance training for
four years in a row, how about we treat you
a little bit differently and give you a pre assessment
to make sure that you compliant and you don't have
to go through that whole entire process of the same
(10:02):
reputation of learning.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Is it something that companies generally struggle to do, do
you think in terms of to upskill their workers and
among other things, in terms of retention? Is it? Is
it something that's harder than it sounds?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, That's that's kind of how we've built
our business. Really, it's it's extremely difficult to create learning
that's on brand with your business. They're typically not armed
for the huge amount of resources the on d function
of a business, so so that's you know, they so
they're quite hamstrung by old legacy technology. So you know,
(10:38):
that's that's why we built Familion typically is to solve
that problem and democratize that creation because I think, like
I said earlier, there's a lot of subject where experts
within a business that have really powerful institutional knowledge that
you want to you want to bring that to life.
So E Learning set peek of medium to do that.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Right. By the way, how much do you do you
reckon from your experience and work places? I mean, obviously
people want to up skill and career progression and things.
What do you reckon? The biggest thing is to retaining
employees from keeping an happy workforce, is it? You know,
how much does it boil down to money if you reckon?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I guess it's very different for the individual and the business.
But what a business can do is focus on the
environment a lot more on you know, my business is
actually a really good case for that. We you know,
I could probably make a lot more money overseas as
a CEO, to be honest, but I've created a remote
workforce in New Zealand. I get to live in Monaca,
(11:47):
arguably one of the most beautiful places in the world.
You know, I've got shared office spaces for all my
staff across the business where we're really productive environment that
we can rapidly innovate in. So so, you know, for
me personally, it's there are different factors in that. There
is do I want to sit in traffic for two
hours a day? Do I want to live in a
one bedroom apartner in Melbourne or do I want to
(12:10):
come back and spread my wings a bit and the
likes of Central Otago. So so it's not everyone's in
that position. I totally get that. You know, there is
a certainly an economic decision you make, but but businesses.
You know, the businesses we work with are looking at
that environmental factor. You know, what's that employee value proposition?
How do we make this a really awesome place?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Actually, you're going to have the jargon for me is
what what is just to clarify for people who are listening,
what's an employee value proposition?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So that that's we created. It's it's basically arming your
recruitment team with the business case and what your business,
what your business culture is. So I think a big
problem when it comes to recruiting is you could recruit
the wrong person that's not aligned to your culture. So say,
and there's peripheral benefits that set outside the salary. You know,
(13:03):
what are those kind of fringe benefits that we can
provide you as a business.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
What have you found that they are that? What are
those other thringe benefits that you think work best for people?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
There's a multitude a ways I could probably spect to
the ones that we have. For instance, like, so we're
fully remote, so you get to work from anywhere. As
long as you have laptop and Wi Fi, are you
good to go? So you know, I've obtained talent from
overseas because of that, Like really experienced backing to developers
twenty years experience.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Are you talking about within your workforce within my business?
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Yeah, so I can definitely speak to that. But your
businesses certainly approached us in different ways. But they could
take you know, you could offer what do you have
healthcare and some health and wellness to support material you
could offer them, you know, noxy toast for Friday off everything,
taking birthday all this.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
What do you think the biggest mistakes are that employers make?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
They probably I think a lot of businesses, you know,
when it comes to learning and development, they probably don't
focus on the personalization of learning. They have more of
a broadcasted approach where they spam out a huge amount
of content. They sit you down and you have to
(14:23):
go through this process of you know, yeah, completing six
modules and then you get back to your job again.
So it's not really you're not really taking advantage of
that internal branding that you could get with learning and developments.
So yeah, I think that a lot of businesses certainly
making a lot of mistake around that. And it's such
a big opportunity to voice your brand and voice your
(14:46):
culture when it comes to learning design. You've got this
great mechanism to communicate with your staff, and they don't
take advantage of that. So and people, I think certainly
high performers, they want to see a pathway to grow
and they get that through learning, design and the busines.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Okay, right, we're going to take a quick moment. I
eight hundred eighty ten eighty. One of the things is
we're also looking at is about keeping your workforce happy,
but how you uptrain, how you upskill people because career
brick progression being a significant thing to consider for many
people in their job. But just on the more basic thing,
I'm curious because on the back of that new story,
(15:27):
I also read what does it take for you as
an employee to be happy within your work? Is it
the money that's going to keep you there or is
it the opportunity to learn through what the employer provides
for you to upskill yourself? So I wait, one hundred
eighty ten eighty, give us a call on that. What
is the best way to keep your employees happy? We'll
be back in just to take it's twenty two past five. Yes,
(16:07):
welcome back to Smart Money. By the way, I see
that the Warriors have been playing. I've been keeping an
eye on that game. It looked like that South started
with a big with a bit of a lead over
the Warriors, but now the Warriors have turned it around.
It's thirty to twelve at the twenty four minute mark
and the twenty four minutes to go, should I say
in the second half? So the Warriors having a good season.
(16:28):
Your Warriors fan, Todd we with Todd Hamilton. CEI you're
a league man.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I'm a rugby man through and through. My brother's professional
rugby player, all right, but I am a late bandwagon
when it comes to the Wars. So still always been
a fan.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
It's going to go, well, hey, how big generally is
employee retention or problem? Do you think throughout New Zealand
people staying in jobs? I mean do people stay there
because they don't have much choice? Or are they staying
there because they love it? I mean how hard is
it for employers to retain employees? Do you think?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, well, I think there's there is obviously a problem
at the moment.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
That's pretty obvious when its Australia, that's right.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah, it is so so yeah, like I mentioned earlier,
you know, I think businesses really need to focus on
how they can change that and why people are leaving
and why they can.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Stay, and because I just wonder, you know, with with
I mean that we have so many headlines around people
leaving and we've got questions with them, obviously, the Ministry
of Health, the Health Service losing doctors and nurses and things,
and in a way I wonder, I'm not sure we
can ever compete with We can never compete with the
(17:52):
money that's going to be offered overseas, can we. I mean,
so we have to focus on other things.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
So what are the focus on the strengths?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Absolutely, so what sort of strength? I mean, what if
you were in charge of all those issues, how would
you be trying to retain workers? Because so much of
the news coverage is all about money, money, money, money, money,
Isn't it not quite Aba?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah? Yeah, it's like I said earlier, you know, it's
a huge part of the equation and I can totally
understand why people would take that approach. But there is
environmental positives to working in New Zealand. You know, like
I mentioned, we've built a tech company here that's in
scale up mode at the moment, and we're trying to
attract really talented experience developers.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Okay, so what brings them to you? Then? What do
you sell when you are trying to attract people to
your company?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah? So for us, and this is the same as
a lot about customers as well. What problem is your
business trying to solve and how do you add as
much value there as possible? And when people buy into
their culture and obviously we were small, we're rapid, we
work really fast, and you get to work automics slaying,
(19:05):
you add a huge amount of impact to their business.
And so we might not offer those huge sort of
Silicon Valley scale up salaries, but you're not just a
number on the spreadsheet either, because you know you are
an uncertain economic times and sometimes working with a smaller
scale up that's built a sustainable revenue engine is actually
(19:25):
a more secure place to work in future proof yourself
and you get to grow as well. You get to
you get to see a bright future in regards to
your career pathway within this business. So that can be
quite liberating for a lot of people, and certainly we
use that to our advantage.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
And so you were talking about Silicon Valley, what's the
thing that differentiat to you when you're trying to find them,
get employees, and then what what do you learn about
them when they accept a job. It's are you tempted
to ask them why are you're here? Because it could
be I mean that's obviously you're not going to ask
that question. But do you try and find out what
it is that made them accept a job in your company?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah, well, I think there's there was that sort of phase.
I don't I remember where there was a huge grow
at all costs phase where there's big tech companies were
hiring a huge load of talenton and thinking that just
injecting volumes of people would solve a big problem. They'll
be able to move faster and benovate faster. But it
kind of hit the reverse effect. So I think we
(20:25):
see this without product development team, where they're building cutting
edge technology. They're not hems from by a big beast
or a legacy technology. They're actually working right on the edge,
and I think that's really liberating for a lot of people,
especially within New Zealand. At the moment, we do have
a really powerful tech startup community. So so yes, the
(20:45):
salary is one thing we try best to compete there,
but we also provide a culture where it's high feedback,
high learning, high pace, and you get to learn really
cutting edge ways of working. So and honestly, we're starting
to see bigger companies move in that direction as well,
where you know that building a high learning culture, a
(21:06):
high feedback culture, where people do you know, add value.
They feel like they're shifting the needle within their business
and they're learning a lot of institutional knowledge throughout their process,
and they're they're building their own artillery throughout their process
as well. So if you make if you build them
up as an individual, you're going to get that big
(21:26):
and dividends in regards to return on investments.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So how willing are people to actually learn on the
job in a way? I mean, I guess that your
your business you're talking about. They sound like they come
in because if you're if you're part of an early
tech sort of start company, then the people who are
coming in they're doing it because they want to be
at the ground floor and that intrinsically they know they're
going to learn.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
I think that's that's the that's the kind of goldilocks
own writers trying to find that founder mentality, but a
large scale business and and that's that's the once again,
it's done through a really really kind of I guess,
innovative way of creating learning design within the company. Are
you building that person's IP up and are they returning
(22:10):
their IP back into the business. A good example is
subject matter experts that use our tool. Typically there used
to be learning specialists that will create learning design and
could be quite a niche market for that. But we
were with a big bank where they have five hundred
people creating learning within the organizations. That's because they've got
(22:30):
so much organizational institutional knowledge that they've built over their
career and they're nurturing that.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
So is that one of the biggest challenge for the
I mean, you get mentioned companies like A and Zere,
any large bank and a huge organization, is that one
of the hardest challenges is that they've got is to
we'll get everyone on the same page in a way.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Yes, the nurture of their experience that they're actually creating
within the ecosystem because you can't learn that stuff at university.
You can't learn that stuff at school, and you know
that on the go learning is pretty powerful when it
comes to just building your own to a portfolio as
an employee and then you're sit then then you're sharing
that knowledge within the organization. That's once again, that's the
(23:12):
way you double down on retaining those that that sort
of force multiply out than the business, because that's that's
you get a huge amount of retend on investment in
those people.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
So, yeah, what are the I mean, what are the
ways that people might feel they're just going you know,
they're just going through the motions with things and they've
been given you know, if they're dealing with up skilling
and all that sort of stuff. But where does it
are there mistakes that companies made that they're sort of
just going through the motions. They talk a good talk
when it comes to actions not necessarily followed through.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yeah. Absolutely, And that's like, once again, what can companies
do right now in regards to solving their problem. It's
make your onboarding count from day one, so as soon
as someone steps foot inside your business, that's your first
impression and a huge percentage of people leave the business
with them in one year of their onboarding. SPAD be
(24:05):
really selective and you're learning, you know, don't flood people
with training, make it relevant and personalized. Like I mentioned, earlier.
You know, if you've been around for a while, you
don't want to do the same health and safety montor
you don't want to do this. You don't want it
to get this keptain obvious, you know, if there's a
weak mop on the floor.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I mean, this is not a criticism avail because we
are very we have susceptible business to it, you know, security,
and so they do have to do onboard, they have
to do they have to do modules that remind you
not to click on that suspicious link, although.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
You do anything from it.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I have from time to time. But they have a
video that goes with it, which is you know, to
designed to entertain. It's a scenario of actors performing a
scenario and there's always the guy who does something stupid
and it's basically but I must say, I generally try
and turn the sound down it and guess and get.
But that's the company has to do that because it's
so important to media company that we retain our IT systems.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
So yeah, and if you think about what goes on
behind the scenes when someone's creating that, it's quite difficult
to produce that learning content in a really powerful way
and keep up with the times and distribute that to
a global workforce. There's a lot of things that have
to take place in order to get that content live.
So that's that's where new modern evening tools can help
(25:33):
in that department. But you know you're asking a good
learning designer, and you know the greatest pathway to learning
is by telling a good story and building good scenarios.
And you know, as you've seen with a lot of
bag orgs, especially on the side of the world, when
they do make a mistake in that area can be
pretty critical.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
So what would your advice be In the streets, I've
got a text here from someone saying, your guest, who
is Todd Hamington by the way from he's the CEO
of Chameleon Creator. This is your guests you took to
the bus industry, very little interest in work condition and
staff retention. Also, senior staff have no knowledge of international standards.
And I'm guessing, if I was reading between the lines there,
(26:12):
that this person maybe feels that, Okay, you want to
drive buses, fine, if you don't, don't and they don't
feel particularly valued. I mean, there'd be a lot of people,
especially in an economy where the job in a job
market where there's not a lot of fluidity.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Yeah, and I think that's like that focus on the
learner gets a little bit lost because of that process,
and a lot of businesses don't take that they don't
have an opportunity to give feedback the learner. So, you know,
our next scenario case at the point do they have
a voice at or do they does someone you've a
tecting on the shoulder in regards to a pulse check
and say, you know, how are you finding working for us?
(26:53):
You know, what's what's a five on a scale of
one to five? How happy are you right now? What
can we help you with? So if you don't get
an opportunity to give feedback, that's where you do run
the risk of losing good quality stuff that have shown
you a lot of loyalty over the years.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, I mean, I guess, so okay, they've given that
feed I mean, how often people are stuck in jobs?
I guess where you know, you give feedback and stuff,
but does it really make a difference to you. I
think that there's a lot of cynicism around that sort
of thing as well, that companies, you know, have boxes
to take in terms of employer retention and loyalty, and
they want to get feedback and stuff. But I mean, yeah,
(27:32):
is there are danger that a lot of companies, especially
the really really large ones. You can imagine, you know,
a large bank or I don't know. I'm just trying
to think of some examples where they would go through
that whole process of asking for feedback. But if people
don't genuinely see any change, then they just sort of think, Okay,
it's another form to fill in and it means nothing.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Absolutely totally agree, and I think I guess I'm sort
of a case of point in regards that are to
design agency that we were doing. You know, we're responsible
for deep lines. I could just stuck to my wheelhouse
and did my job and been pretty happy, but we
were you know, there was some pain points within that job,
(28:14):
and I wanted to solve those problems. And I worked
in a culture that allowed me to do that, and
I think that's where I built Chameleon, which is now
we're spun out as a business. You know, we're servicing
over two hundred and sixty of the biggest brands across
Australia in the zillis. We're scaling up and I always
point back to the culture of that company at the
time that allowed me to actually solve a problem that
(28:36):
was outside of the box. I wasn't just checking boxes
and you know, my doing my day job just punching
and punching out.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So when you set left to set up your own company,
was it because you were dissatisfied with with where you
were at or was it because you wanted to do
something new? Because there's a different mindset, isn't there the
ones getting out and there's one where you are literally
looking at something else and thinking you're not It's not
so much about leaving your job. It's about pursuing a
new opportunity that's exciting.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah, and I'm quite a bit of a unique. It
definitely wasn't because I was unhapy, so I was pretty happy.
But I created a tool that I was using that
the whole company used to create learning content on and
we didn't plan on building a business, but the output
of that satisfied customers to the point where they wanted
(29:23):
to sign up to their tool. So it made a
lot of sense for me to spin that out as
a business and solve their problem because their experience and
the same problem as we were when it came to
creating a learning design. You know, it's really difficult, took
a long time, and our toolky solves that for them.
So yeah, I think there's more of a opportunistic move
(29:44):
in regards to creating a whole tech startup, a bit
of a risk involved, but yeah, pretty clear we did it,
that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah. Look, we'll take a quick break now. Look, I
king to hear from anyone else who's moved on from
one job to another. What was it that caused you
to leave? But also would there have been reasons that
you might have stayed? And what do you think employers'
most common mistakes are when it comes to to employ
your retention eight hundred and eighty text nine two nine.
So I'll get it onto a few other texts. The
(30:11):
moment it is. What did I say at the time,
was it's coming up to twenty two sex news talks.
It'd be me.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I'm a double shadow whiskey. They know me Jay Downstown Stish.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
There's a party downtown here a few stish. Everybody had barget.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Everybody had everybody.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I've been bought you since Sunday. I ain't change your fortune.
Tell my mind for kit God on druggets any and
we're gonna do this again. Tell your God to bring
a friend. Oh no, news talks, it'd be this is
smart money. My We've got a new guest on the
Show's name is Todd Hamilton is the CEO of Chameleon Creator.
They actually, I think I might have misunderstood that exactly
(31:02):
what you do your your gigas, but you basically create
learning platforms for large businesses to help employees upskill through
an online to the platform. Is that right? Did I
get that right?
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Do you did it better than me? Thank you? I'm
going to steal that sound bite.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I mean, but how how big a problem do you
think brain drain is with with? I mean brain drains
generally a reference to New Zealand. Isn't it New Zealand
people going to Australia or is it an issue with
the companies experience what they call brain drain because they're
leaving people, losing people because of I don't know, more
money or whatever.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Yeah, it's been around for a while, they were brain
drained conversation. I think multiple countries have tried to approach
it in different ways, and you know, I think Silicon
Value was apparently it's all been a lot of talent
from you know, parts of the world.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
And yeah, but were you ever attempted to move your
business over there, would you be I mean, there a
case at the moment, you've got that sort of thing
going for you that you're this creative startup that building
businesses and stuff. But is there a problem? I'd be like, Oh,
what ap't Todd Ike's in Silicon Valley?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Now, I think there's you know, and i'd probably expect
for a lot of tech scale ups and his long
now like, it's a pretty good ecosystem to build a
business in New Zealand. You don't need to ship and
become a unicorn in Silicon Valley. You know, you can
build a pretty sustainable business on this side of the world.
(32:30):
There's a pretty big in the out particular market. It's
pretty untapped as well across Australia and New Zealand and
we do deal with a lot of companies in the US.
But but we could we could definitely base our business
here and grow to a pretty large scale, that's for sure.
So the temptation's not there yet. I don't know what
they would look like in ten years time.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean in terms about the
companies that you work with, what do you what do
you think they'd find that the common factors to be
and the problems that they have at keeping people in
the jobs that they want to stay in.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yeah. So the big one is obviously, like I guess,
you know, gen Z's expectations of a digital experience now
is quite high in regards to the outside of the
learning culture. So as soon as they come into about
the organization and they start learning content within the environment,
(33:24):
it takes a bit of a it drops down a
couple of gears in regards to the base and the
quality of it.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
So so say that again, I didn't quite get that
when with gen Z, So what they come on, they
come into a company and then say again, yeah, so
they get you.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Know, the way they consume content outside of work now
was pretty high fidelity and they get to experience some
amazing applications you know Netflix, Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
But as soon as they come into an organization that
really slows down quite significantly, and I think especially when
it comes to learning in our world and digital learning.
(33:59):
So so yeah, that's that's one thing I think a
lot of businesses are trying to sold.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Is that what you're trying to compete with. You're trying
to basically make an online learning environment for people in
the workplace that's as engaging as your latest Instagram feed.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yep. Yeah, I mean you probably wouldn't want as engaging
as Instagram these days, but the experience from from your
life perspective, absolutely you should. You shouldn't expect anything less.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Does that create a problem for companies with I mean,
because there'll be people who are listening to this and go, well,
it all sounds great that we can do stuff on
our computer, on our apps, but where does the face
to face engagement come with? Because I think I would
say that one of the challenges depending on the company
you're working for, of course, but a lot of the
face to face value of people to people versus learning
(34:47):
certain skills that yeah, okay, we need to get this
out on mass but where does the where does the
face to face engagement and happen with large companies?
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah no, I think I think they call it blended learning.
So yep, there's still facilitated workshops where you go into
a chopping and it's.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
That little bit old school, is it, Well, I think
a lot of.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah, like you said, you know, there's there's distributive workforce.
Now there's a lot of sort of hybrid working environments
people all over the place, and you know, how do
you digitize that? And yeah, they once again not trying
to plug our tool, but there's a alitude of technology
out there that supports there. You know, these especial when COVID,
(35:30):
you know, businesses understood how to become more remote and
distributed learning content in a more efficient way. So but yeah,
that's our wheelhouse. So apologies if I keep going back
to that, but you know, we do have a bit
more of like I said, a rose ten to lens
when it comes to brain drain, because we work with
(35:50):
companies that are trying to stop that and that's quite
quite exciting, to be honest.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Actually, you know the thing is because we normally try
and get a bit of talkback going, and I realized
the biggest talk back hook I should have had on
is the one we've just touched on, whether the e
learning is the way to go to build your workforce
or whether people actually prefer the face to face because
I think there is a bit of a there is
a bit of a culture clash with that. I mean,
I might don't mind a bit of both.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
I mean, it's totally I agree. Yeah, I agree, And
that's why I think blended learning still got a place.
You know, we don't solve all the world's problems from
an e learning perspective, it's for sure, what are the what.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Are the short what are the what are the things
that you would be wanting to work on in terms
of what you'd be offering with your e learning tools,
because it's it's a constantly evolving environment, I'm sure. I mean,
where's it?
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Where? Where is it?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Where have you? Where did you start from? And what
have you got to in terms of what you're offering?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Do you mean what sort of content do you create
within the Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
How how is the content that you're providing evolved over
the la you know, since you've you got started.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Hugely actually, because it used to be very black and
white check box e learning. And you know, you ask
most people these days that have worked at a company
that use that legacy technology what their experience is like
with learning it. It's typically quite quite poor. And I
think that's you know, that's where you'd see things like
(37:13):
onboarding modules, compliance modules, tools and system adoption, career progression
content and on demand sales enablements another big one. We
work with a lot of retailers with frontline staff are
out there and selling quite high spec products. How do
they get that information at their fingertips as quickly as
(37:33):
possible to help you help that funnel in regards to sales.
So yeah, there's there's a multitude of touch points that
learning can help with. And like I said, it doesn't
solve all the world's problems in regards to learning, because
I think they're still is that sort.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Of so we're too now, We're too now for your company.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
So I think it's our flagship product is the design
tool that we allow anyone to create good learning that's
on brand and and is more of a It creates
more of a conversation with the learners as opposed to
broadcasting it. But we we also built a data and
analytics platform, which is really interesting because I think the
(38:14):
learning design departments typically get looked at like a cost
center in a business. It's really hard to report from
that return on investment. It's not as binary as a
marketing team. For instance, you know, the conversion design is
quite black and white. We're learning is very different. So
giving them some analytics on the engagement of that content
is really important. You know. I think that that, like
(38:36):
you said earlier, that cybersecurity module that you did, it
would be really interesting to see how you engaged with that.
We fastboarded in the video and we can't assume I assume, sorry,
but that's like we week with Speaks. Savers are really interesting. Actually,
like Chris there in Australia, they do a lot of
(38:58):
digital content on our platform and they actually, you know,
they increased the yeah learner experience from a three point
three out of five to four point six out of
five when they adopted us, because they actually want to
show how people are engaging with that content and they
are going, Okay, Tim, skip through the first three questions
the second.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
I can't do that either.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I can see he got the multichoice questions wrong six times.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
In a row and hopefully not but you know what
I mean.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, So it's a it's an opportunity to enhance that design,
but it's also an opportunity to go back to the
business and go, hey, look you've just you've just invested
in us, to invest in our people, and here's their
return on investment. I want to return on investments really
significant these todaysciate retention.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Good stuff. Hey, thanks, Hey, I really appreciated your time, titling.
Good luck with it all and everything, and thanks for
good time. The people want to check you, check out
your company.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Where do they go cameleon creator dot com? Yeah, good
stuff things on there then, so appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
We'll be back in a moment to wrap things up.
This is news Talk, said B. It is seven and
a half minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to News
Talk ZIEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News talksb.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
And welcome back to the Weekend Collective onton Beverage. If
you've missed any of the previous House by the way,
with the Last Hours with Greg Paine talking about well,
it's always about the science of movement and preventing injury
and backs and all that sort of thing biomechanist at Biasport.
You can go and check that out on the News
Talk SIPI website or iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective.
And same with Politics Centro where we chatted to Laura
(00:53):
mclur she's nat MP, you remember the one who she
held up an ai image of herself naked was blurred out,
of course, but to highlight the potential for what will
highlight the law change she wants to see made to
the revenge porn legislation. Interesting chat with her, but also
Mark Mitchell joined us, the police minister around the latest
to get together of the ah what's the word boy,
(01:17):
racist juvenile delinquents in live in and anyway, it was
interesting talk to interesting to see whether they follow that
up with a bit more urgency as he possibly hinted at.
But anyway, you can check those out on the News
Talks b website. Right now, it is time for Smart
Money and we're going to have a chat about well
a bunch of things around employee happiness and retention, including
(01:40):
things like career progression. Whether that's a significant thing for people,
whether they are it's something that's an important part of
keeping them happy in the workplace. I notice it in
the news. There was just the story that Joe Gilfillan
read out just now about job security and pay being
key factors for office workers pursuing new roles. There was
at serve our five hundred people from finance, accounting, it
(02:02):
technology finding sixty one percent of respond on would change
jobs for better pay. And I guess the question is,
if you're happy in your job, is it all about
the money? And what is the key to how can
employers look after employees and keep them happy that they
are not necessarily chasing the biggest bang for buck Anyway,
Todd Hamington is a new guest on the show. He's
(02:23):
the CEO of Chameleon Creator. There was a little hint
there with the choice of opening song, and he joins
us for Smart Money. Todd get a nice to meet
you man. Yeah too, good. Good. Tell us about your company.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yes, so I founded this company in New Zealand actually
about four years ago, and it's a learning design tool
that companies use to create digital content. TOM predominantly do
increase and enhance the capability of their staff, so you
can design learning content on it for all devices, and
(02:59):
we also beck that designer with a data and analytics
platform as well, so they can kind of report back
on the investment of learning within the business.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
It's about so growing people in the workplace and their knowledge.
I guess that's exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Right, absolutely so. So yeah, there's obviously we get to
work with some pretty impressive organizations in the space that
really do invest in their people. So probably have a
bit more of a rose tinted lens in regards to
you both. I guess there's every business has different challenges.
(03:35):
It's got it's unique DNA within it. But I mean
they're looking to either you know, retain their quality stuff
and enhance their existing stuff and lower that sort of
chin because obviously that's a plus sum game for all
businesses if they focus.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
On what do you what I mean, what do you so,
what do you think keeps people in the jobs that
they're in and keeps a happy workforce. I mean, obviously
you'll see it through the prism of the lens of
what you do as a business. But what have you
what have you learned in terms of what keeps people
happy in the workplace?
Speaker 3 (04:12):
I kind of got two perspectives. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well
these two factors there. There is the economic decision, which
I totally understand, and you know, the grass is greener.
That's another one is you know, they typically look at
the broad turn see what else is out there. And
the other one is just an environment. You know, there's
(04:32):
your work environment somewhere somewhere that you really cherish being
in and and does it cater for a good lifestyle
around that. So so yeah, that's where we typically work
as well as really kind of focusing on creating a
really I guess modernized learning environment for companies that invest
in their people, which is really cool.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
So what do you mean by a modernized learning environment?
You might have to go into a bit more detail
for us now for our listeners as well.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah sure, look, I guess it's really cool. So there's
a there's obviously movement now where businesses are operating extremely quickly,
so they're using L and D more as a competitive
advantage rather than just a check box exercise.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So L and D learning and development.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
That's right, learning and development. So we'll cut those off.
But yeah, I think there's a life cycle of ways
they deliver that. The common ones you know, span from
you know, arming their recruitment team with a really powerful
employee value proposition, so making sure that they're hiring the
right talent from day one. And then there's the onboarding
(05:41):
aspect of getting that speed to impacts, which to which
you know learning can significantly help with. And then there's
like things like de risking the business you know through compliance,
which we can unpack a little bit, but you know,
you want to reduce those big costly errors and legal
risks and health and safety issues and stuff like that
(06:02):
as well. So so ANDAST like I said, like you
get sort of a huge return on investment from that,
and you would retain staff. I think is a really
important one because it's not just about avoiding the costs,
it's about the compounding value of that because there's the
obvious financial savings you get, you're keeping their ip within
(06:24):
the business, you're growing.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, carry on.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah. I think the other two factors is the operational
aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
So, I mean, how did you end up getting involved
with what you're doing?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
So? I was originally a designer for a learning and
development company in Melbourne. Actually, so I'm guilty of going
abroad learning, up scaling myself and then coming back and
starting a tech company here in New Zealand. So, but
I was a designer and I was responsible for delivering
really large scale learning solutions for a lot of the
(07:02):
big brands across aus gravity in New Zealand. And yeah,
that's why we built our tool actually, because it's really
difficult to achieve there's a lot of moving parts in learning.
And it's not just you're not just building a static website.
You know, you're building a lot of moving parts. There's
a lot of assessments you have to report back to
the business.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
What sort of companies engage you guys to do what
you do?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, we work with mid to large enterprises predominantly like
a am Z bank min to ten. There's a lot
of retailers spec savors.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
So what's an example of what you do for minor ten?
What would they what would they be?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah, So I guess they came to us to solve
a problem of the speed of design, in particular designing training.
There it took them about sort of eight weeks to
deliver a learning module to the business.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
When yeah, okay, what about you've had I think the
Ministry of Health one of your clients as well.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Yep, that's right, yep. So we've got a number of
government departments that create learning content and that's right through
you know, onboarding, compliance tools and system adoption, career progression,
learning leadership. So there's a really interesting content.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
And what do they report back to when it comes
to the career progression and what you're doing with them?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Well, I think, I think what a common problem with
career progression and that's sort of works its way back
into retaining good stuff I guess is people like to
see a good career pathway within their business that are
working within and that that helps that pretention aspect of
that type of cohort. But a good example, you know,
if you get a really high performer within the business
(08:43):
that's working there for three plus years and they get
promoted into a leadership possession. It's not always just as
simple as becoming a great people leader. And becoming a
force multiplier within the business. So they get to arm
their people with that progression through you know, enhancing their
leadership people leadership skills.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And so do you how does the program you do
help them step into that? Obviously, it's about helping them
step into a new role. It's one thing to be
a good sort of worker and have spent two or
three years in a company, but then to get them
into a position where they've got new skills. What do
you guys do in that space? How does that work?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah? Well, yeah, it depends on the organization. There's a
lot of learning designers that I guess approach the in
a different way, but they distribute e learning across multiple
locations on the mass and it's about personalizing that and
not sort of falling into the captain obvious trap when
(09:39):
it comes to the learning, which I think a lot
of people have any negative experience with typically, so and
personalizing it means something like, if you've been here for
four years and you've done the same compliance training for
four years in a row, how about we treat you
a little bit differently and give you a pre assessment
to make sure that you compliant and you don't have
to go through that whole entire process of the same
(10:02):
reputation of learning.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Is it something that companies generally struggle to do, do
you think in terms of to upskill their workers and
among other things, in terms of retention? Is it? Is
it something that's harder than it sounds?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, That's that's kind of how we've built
our business. Really, it's it's extremely difficult to create learning
that's on brand with your business. They're typically not armed
for the huge amount of resources the on d function
of a business, so so that's you know, they so
they're quite hamstrung by old legacy technology. So you know,
(10:38):
that's that's why we built Familion typically is to solve
that problem and democratize that creation because I think, like
I said earlier, there's a lot of subject where experts
within a business that have really powerful institutional knowledge that
you want to you want to bring that to life.
So E Learning set peek of medium to do that.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Right. By the way, how much do you do you
reckon from your experience and work places? I mean, obviously
people want to up skill and career progression and things.
What do you reckon? The biggest thing is to retaining
employees from keeping an happy workforce, is it? You know,
how much does it boil down to money if you reckon?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I guess it's very different for the individual and the business.
But what a business can do is focus on the
environment a lot more on you know, my business is
actually a really good case for that. We you know,
I could probably make a lot more money overseas as
a CEO, to be honest, but I've created a remote
workforce in New Zealand. I get to live in Monaca,
(11:47):
arguably one of the most beautiful places in the world.
You know, I've got shared office spaces for all my
staff across the business where we're really productive environment that
we can rapidly innovate in. So so, you know, for
me personally, it's there are different factors in that. There
is do I want to sit in traffic for two
hours a day? Do I want to live in a
one bedroom apartner in Melbourne or do I want to
(12:10):
come back and spread my wings a bit and the
likes of Central Otago. So so it's not everyone's in
that position. I totally get that. You know, there is
a certainly an economic decision you make, but but businesses.
You know, the businesses we work with are looking at
that environmental factor. You know, what's that employee value proposition?
How do we make this a really awesome place?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Actually, you're going to have the jargon for me is
what what is just to clarify for people who are listening,
what's an employee value proposition?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So that that's we created. It's it's basically arming your
recruitment team with the business case and what your business,
what your business culture is. So I think a big
problem when it comes to recruiting is you could recruit
the wrong person that's not aligned to your culture. So say,
and there's peripheral benefits that set outside the salary. You know,
(13:03):
what are those kind of fringe benefits that we can
provide you as a business.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
What have you found that they are that? What are
those other thringe benefits that you think work best for people?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
There's a multitude a ways I could probably spect to
the ones that we have. For instance, like, so we're
fully remote, so you get to work from anywhere. As
long as you have laptop and Wi Fi, are you
good to go? So you know, I've obtained talent from
overseas because of that, Like really experienced backing to developers
twenty years experience.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Are you talking about within your workforce within my business?
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Yeah, so I can definitely speak to that. But your
businesses certainly approached us in different ways. But they could
take you know, you could offer what do you have
healthcare and some health and wellness to support material you
could offer them, you know, noxy toast for Friday off everything,
taking birthday all this.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
What do you think the biggest mistakes are that employers make?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
They probably I think a lot of businesses, you know,
when it comes to learning and development, they probably don't
focus on the personalization of learning. They have more of
a broadcasted approach where they spam out a huge amount
of content. They sit you down and you have to
(14:23):
go through this process of you know, yeah, completing six
modules and then you get back to your job again.
So it's not really you're not really taking advantage of
that internal branding that you could get with learning and developments.
So yeah, I think that a lot of businesses certainly
making a lot of mistake around that. And it's such
a big opportunity to voice your brand and voice your
(14:46):
culture when it comes to learning design. You've got this
great mechanism to communicate with your staff, and they don't
take advantage of that. So and people, I think certainly
high performers, they want to see a pathway to grow
and they get that through learning, design and the busines.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Okay, right, we're going to take a quick moment. I
eight hundred eighty ten eighty. One of the things is
we're also looking at is about keeping your workforce happy,
but how you uptrain, how you upskill people because career
brick progression being a significant thing to consider for many
people in their job. But just on the more basic thing,
I'm curious because on the back of that new story,
(15:27):
I also read what does it take for you as
an employee to be happy within your work? Is it
the money that's going to keep you there or is
it the opportunity to learn through what the employer provides
for you to upskill yourself? So I wait, one hundred
eighty ten eighty, give us a call on that. What
is the best way to keep your employees happy? We'll
be back in just to take it's twenty two past five. Yes,
(16:07):
welcome back to Smart Money. By the way, I see
that the Warriors have been playing. I've been keeping an
eye on that game. It looked like that South started
with a big with a bit of a lead over
the Warriors, but now the Warriors have turned it around.
It's thirty to twelve at the twenty four minute mark
and the twenty four minutes to go, should I say
in the second half? So the Warriors having a good season.
(16:28):
Your Warriors fan, Todd we with Todd Hamilton. CEI you're
a league man.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I'm a rugby man through and through. My brother's professional
rugby player, all right, but I am a late bandwagon
when it comes to the Wars. So still always been
a fan.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
It's going to go, well, hey, how big generally is
employee retention or problem? Do you think throughout New Zealand
people staying in jobs? I mean do people stay there
because they don't have much choice? Or are they staying
there because they love it? I mean how hard is
it for employers to retain employees? Do you think?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, well, I think there's there is obviously a problem
at the moment.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
That's pretty obvious when its Australia, that's right.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah, it is so so yeah, like I mentioned earlier,
you know, I think businesses really need to focus on
how they can change that and why people are leaving
and why they can.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Stay, and because I just wonder, you know, with with
I mean that we have so many headlines around people
leaving and we've got questions with them, obviously, the Ministry
of Health, the Health Service losing doctors and nurses and things,
and in a way I wonder, I'm not sure we
can ever compete with We can never compete with the
(17:52):
money that's going to be offered overseas, can we. I mean,
so we have to focus on other things.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
So what are the focus on the strengths?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Absolutely, so what sort of strength? I mean, what if
you were in charge of all those issues, how would
you be trying to retain workers? Because so much of
the news coverage is all about money, money, money, money, money,
Isn't it not quite Aba?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah? Yeah, it's like I said earlier, you know, it's
a huge part of the equation and I can totally
understand why people would take that approach. But there is
environmental positives to working in New Zealand. You know, like
I mentioned, we've built a tech company here that's in
scale up mode at the moment, and we're trying to
attract really talented experience developers.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Okay, so what brings them to you? Then? What do
you sell when you are trying to attract people to
your company?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah? So for us, and this is the same as
a lot about customers as well. What problem is your
business trying to solve and how do you add as
much value there as possible? And when people buy into
their culture and obviously we were small, we're rapid, we
work really fast, and you get to work automics slaying,
(19:05):
you add a huge amount of impact to their business.
And so we might not offer those huge sort of
Silicon Valley scale up salaries, but you're not just a
number on the spreadsheet either, because you know you are
an uncertain economic times and sometimes working with a smaller
scale up that's built a sustainable revenue engine is actually
(19:25):
a more secure place to work in future proof yourself
and you get to grow as well. You get to
you get to see a bright future in regards to
your career pathway within this business. So that can be
quite liberating for a lot of people, and certainly we
use that to our advantage.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
And so you were talking about Silicon Valley, what's the
thing that differentiat to you when you're trying to find them,
get employees, and then what what do you learn about
them when they accept a job. It's are you tempted
to ask them why are you're here? Because it could
be I mean that's obviously you're not going to ask
that question. But do you try and find out what
it is that made them accept a job in your company?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah, well, I think there's there was that sort of phase.
I don't I remember where there was a huge grow
at all costs phase where there's big tech companies were
hiring a huge load of talenton and thinking that just
injecting volumes of people would solve a big problem. They'll
be able to move faster and benovate faster. But it
kind of hit the reverse effect. So I think we
(20:25):
see this without product development team, where they're building cutting
edge technology. They're not hems from by a big beast
or a legacy technology. They're actually working right on the edge,
and I think that's really liberating for a lot of people,
especially within New Zealand. At the moment, we do have
a really powerful tech startup community. So so yes, the
(20:45):
salary is one thing we try best to compete there,
but we also provide a culture where it's high feedback,
high learning, high pace, and you get to learn really
cutting edge ways of working. So and honestly, we're starting
to see bigger companies move in that direction as well,
where you know that building a high learning culture, a
(21:06):
high feedback culture, where people do you know, add value.
They feel like they're shifting the needle within their business
and they're learning a lot of institutional knowledge throughout their process,
and they're they're building their own artillery throughout their process
as well. So if you make if you build them
up as an individual, you're going to get that big
(21:26):
and dividends in regards to return on investments.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So how willing are people to actually learn on the
job in a way? I mean, I guess that your
your business you're talking about. They sound like they come
in because if you're if you're part of an early
tech sort of start company, then the people who are
coming in they're doing it because they want to be
at the ground floor and that intrinsically they know they're
going to learn.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
I think that's that's the that's the kind of goldilocks
own writers trying to find that founder mentality, but a
large scale business and and that's that's the once again,
it's done through a really really kind of I guess,
innovative way of creating learning design within the company. Are
you building that person's IP up and are they returning
(22:10):
their IP back into the business. A good example is
subject matter experts that use our tool. Typically there used
to be learning specialists that will create learning design and
could be quite a niche market for that. But we
were with a big bank where they have five hundred
people creating learning within the organizations. That's because they've got
(22:30):
so much organizational institutional knowledge that they've built over their
career and they're nurturing that.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
So is that one of the biggest challenge for the
I mean, you get mentioned companies like A and Zere,
any large bank and a huge organization, is that one
of the hardest challenges is that they've got is to
we'll get everyone on the same page in a way.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Yes, the nurture of their experience that they're actually creating
within the ecosystem because you can't learn that stuff at university.
You can't learn that stuff at school, and you know
that on the go learning is pretty powerful when it
comes to just building your own to a portfolio as
an employee and then you're sit then then you're sharing
that knowledge within the organization. That's once again, that's the
(23:12):
way you double down on retaining those that that sort
of force multiply out than the business, because that's that's
you get a huge amount of retend on investment in
those people.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
So, yeah, what are the I mean, what are the
ways that people might feel they're just going you know,
they're just going through the motions with things and they've
been given you know, if they're dealing with up skilling
and all that sort of stuff. But where does it
are there mistakes that companies made that they're sort of
just going through the motions. They talk a good talk
when it comes to actions not necessarily followed through.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yeah. Absolutely, And that's like, once again, what can companies
do right now in regards to solving their problem. It's
make your onboarding count from day one, so as soon
as someone steps foot inside your business, that's your first
impression and a huge percentage of people leave the business
with them in one year of their onboarding. SPAD be
(24:05):
really selective and you're learning, you know, don't flood people
with training, make it relevant and personalized. Like I mentioned, earlier.
You know, if you've been around for a while, you
don't want to do the same health and safety montor
you don't want to do this. You don't want it
to get this keptain obvious, you know, if there's a
weak mop on the floor.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I mean, this is not a criticism avail because we
are very we have susceptible business to it, you know, security,
and so they do have to do onboard, they have
to do they have to do modules that remind you
not to click on that suspicious link, although.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
You do anything from it.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I have from time to time. But they have a
video that goes with it, which is you know, to
designed to entertain. It's a scenario of actors performing a
scenario and there's always the guy who does something stupid
and it's basically but I must say, I generally try
and turn the sound down it and guess and get.
But that's the company has to do that because it's
so important to media company that we retain our IT systems.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
So yeah, and if you think about what goes on
behind the scenes when someone's creating that, it's quite difficult
to produce that learning content in a really powerful way
and keep up with the times and distribute that to
a global workforce. There's a lot of things that have
to take place in order to get that content live.
So that's that's where new modern evening tools can help
(25:33):
in that department. But you know you're asking a good
learning designer, and you know the greatest pathway to learning
is by telling a good story and building good scenarios.
And you know, as you've seen with a lot of
bag orgs, especially on the side of the world, when
they do make a mistake in that area can be
pretty critical.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
So what would your advice be In the streets, I've
got a text here from someone saying, your guest, who
is Todd Hamington by the way from he's the CEO
of Chameleon Creator. This is your guests you took to
the bus industry, very little interest in work condition and
staff retention. Also, senior staff have no knowledge of international standards.
And I'm guessing, if I was reading between the lines there,
(26:12):
that this person maybe feels that, Okay, you want to
drive buses, fine, if you don't, don't and they don't
feel particularly valued. I mean, there'd be a lot of people,
especially in an economy where the job in a job
market where there's not a lot of fluidity.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Yeah, and I think that's like that focus on the
learner gets a little bit lost because of that process,
and a lot of businesses don't take that they don't
have an opportunity to give feedback the learner. So, you know,
our next scenario case at the point do they have
a voice at or do they does someone you've a
tecting on the shoulder in regards to a pulse check
and say, you know, how are you finding working for us?
(26:53):
You know, what's what's a five on a scale of
one to five? How happy are you right now? What
can we help you with? So if you don't get
an opportunity to give feedback, that's where you do run
the risk of losing good quality stuff that have shown
you a lot of loyalty over the years.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, I mean, I guess, so okay, they've given that
feed I mean, how often people are stuck in jobs?
I guess where you know, you give feedback and stuff,
but does it really make a difference to you. I
think that there's a lot of cynicism around that sort
of thing as well, that companies, you know, have boxes
to take in terms of employer retention and loyalty, and
they want to get feedback and stuff. But I mean, yeah,
(27:32):
is there are danger that a lot of companies, especially
the really really large ones. You can imagine, you know,
a large bank or I don't know. I'm just trying
to think of some examples where they would go through
that whole process of asking for feedback. But if people
don't genuinely see any change, then they just sort of think, Okay,
it's another form to fill in and it means nothing.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Absolutely totally agree, and I think I guess I'm sort
of a case of point in regards that are to
design agency that we were doing. You know, we're responsible
for deep lines. I could just stuck to my wheelhouse
and did my job and been pretty happy, but we
were you know, there was some pain points within that job,
(28:14):
and I wanted to solve those problems. And I worked
in a culture that allowed me to do that, and
I think that's where I built Chameleon, which is now
we're spun out as a business. You know, we're servicing
over two hundred and sixty of the biggest brands across
Australia in the zillis. We're scaling up and I always
point back to the culture of that company at the
time that allowed me to actually solve a problem that
(28:36):
was outside of the box. I wasn't just checking boxes
and you know, my doing my day job just punching
and punching out.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So when you set left to set up your own company,
was it because you were dissatisfied with with where you
were at or was it because you wanted to do
something new? Because there's a different mindset, isn't there the
ones getting out and there's one where you are literally
looking at something else and thinking you're not It's not
so much about leaving your job. It's about pursuing a
new opportunity that's exciting.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah, and I'm quite a bit of a unique. It
definitely wasn't because I was unhapy, so I was pretty happy.
But I created a tool that I was using that
the whole company used to create learning content on and
we didn't plan on building a business, but the output
of that satisfied customers to the point where they wanted
(29:23):
to sign up to their tool. So it made a
lot of sense for me to spin that out as
a business and solve their problem because their experience and
the same problem as we were when it came to
creating a learning design. You know, it's really difficult, took
a long time, and our toolky solves that for them.
So yeah, I think there's more of a opportunistic move
(29:44):
in regards to creating a whole tech startup, a bit
of a risk involved, but yeah, pretty clear we did it,
that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah. Look, we'll take a quick break now. Look, I
king to hear from anyone else who's moved on from
one job to another. What was it that caused you
to leave? But also would there have been reasons that
you might have stayed? And what do you think employers'
most common mistakes are when it comes to to employ
your retention eight hundred and eighty text nine two nine.
So I'll get it onto a few other texts. The
(30:11):
moment it is. What did I say at the time,
was it's coming up to twenty two sex news talks.
It'd be me.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I'm a double shadow whiskey. They know me Jay Downstown Stish.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
There's a party downtown here a few stish. Everybody had barget.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Everybody had everybody.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I've been bought you since Sunday. I ain't change your fortune.
Tell my mind for kit God on druggets any and
we're gonna do this again. Tell your God to bring
a friend. Oh no, news talks, it'd be this is
smart money. My We've got a new guest on the
Show's name is Todd Hamilton is the CEO of Chameleon Creator.
They actually, I think I might have misunderstood that exactly
(31:02):
what you do your your gigas, but you basically create
learning platforms for large businesses to help employees upskill through
an online to the platform. Is that right? Did I
get that right?
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Do you did it better than me? Thank you? I'm
going to steal that sound bite.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I mean, but how how big a problem do you
think brain drain is with with? I mean brain drains
generally a reference to New Zealand. Isn't it New Zealand
people going to Australia or is it an issue with
the companies experience what they call brain drain because they're
leaving people, losing people because of I don't know, more
money or whatever.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Yeah, it's been around for a while, they were brain
drained conversation. I think multiple countries have tried to approach
it in different ways, and you know, I think Silicon
Value was apparently it's all been a lot of talent
from you know, parts of the world.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
And yeah, but were you ever attempted to move your
business over there, would you be I mean, there a
case at the moment, you've got that sort of thing
going for you that you're this creative startup that building
businesses and stuff. But is there a problem? I'd be like, Oh,
what ap't Todd Ike's in Silicon Valley?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Now, I think there's you know, and i'd probably expect
for a lot of tech scale ups and his long
now like, it's a pretty good ecosystem to build a
business in New Zealand. You don't need to ship and
become a unicorn in Silicon Valley. You know, you can
build a pretty sustainable business on this side of the world.
(32:30):
There's a pretty big in the out particular market. It's
pretty untapped as well across Australia and New Zealand and
we do deal with a lot of companies in the US.
But but we could we could definitely base our business
here and grow to a pretty large scale, that's for sure.
So the temptation's not there yet. I don't know what
they would look like in ten years time.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean in terms about the
companies that you work with, what do you what do
you think they'd find that the common factors to be
and the problems that they have at keeping people in
the jobs that they want to stay in.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yeah. So the big one is obviously, like I guess,
you know, gen Z's expectations of a digital experience now
is quite high in regards to the outside of the
learning culture. So as soon as they come into about
the organization and they start learning content within the environment,
(33:24):
it takes a bit of a it drops down a
couple of gears in regards to the base and the
quality of it.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
So so say that again, I didn't quite get that
when with gen Z, So what they come on, they
come into a company and then say again, yeah, so
they get you.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Know, the way they consume content outside of work now
was pretty high fidelity and they get to experience some
amazing applications you know Netflix, Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
But as soon as they come into an organization that
really slows down quite significantly, and I think especially when
it comes to learning in our world and digital learning.
(33:59):
So so yeah, that's that's one thing I think a
lot of businesses are trying to sold.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Is that what you're trying to compete with. You're trying
to basically make an online learning environment for people in
the workplace that's as engaging as your latest Instagram feed.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yep. Yeah, I mean you probably wouldn't want as engaging
as Instagram these days, but the experience from from your
life perspective, absolutely you should. You shouldn't expect anything less.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Does that create a problem for companies with I mean,
because there'll be people who are listening to this and go, well,
it all sounds great that we can do stuff on
our computer, on our apps, but where does the face
to face engagement come with? Because I think I would
say that one of the challenges depending on the company
you're working for, of course, but a lot of the
face to face value of people to people versus learning
(34:47):
certain skills that yeah, okay, we need to get this
out on mass but where does the where does the
face to face engagement and happen with large companies?
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah no, I think I think they call it blended learning.
So yep, there's still facilitated workshops where you go into
a chopping and it's.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
That little bit old school, is it, Well, I think
a lot of.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah, like you said, you know, there's there's distributive workforce.
Now there's a lot of sort of hybrid working environments
people all over the place, and you know, how do
you digitize that? And yeah, they once again not trying
to plug our tool, but there's a alitude of technology
out there that supports there. You know, these especial when COVID,
(35:30):
you know, businesses understood how to become more remote and
distributed learning content in a more efficient way. So but yeah,
that's our wheelhouse. So apologies if I keep going back
to that, but you know, we do have a bit
more of like I said, a rose ten to lens
when it comes to brain drain, because we work with
(35:50):
companies that are trying to stop that and that's quite
quite exciting, to be honest.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Actually, you know the thing is because we normally try
and get a bit of talkback going, and I realized
the biggest talk back hook I should have had on
is the one we've just touched on, whether the e
learning is the way to go to build your workforce
or whether people actually prefer the face to face because
I think there is a bit of a there is
a bit of a culture clash with that. I mean,
I might don't mind a bit of both.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
I mean, it's totally I agree. Yeah, I agree, And
that's why I think blended learning still got a place.
You know, we don't solve all the world's problems from
an e learning perspective, it's for sure, what are the what.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Are the short what are the what are the things
that you would be wanting to work on in terms
of what you'd be offering with your e learning tools,
because it's it's a constantly evolving environment, I'm sure. I mean,
where's it?
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Where? Where is it?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Where have you? Where did you start from? And what
have you got to in terms of what you're offering?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Do you mean what sort of content do you create
within the Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
How how is the content that you're providing evolved over
the la you know, since you've you got started.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Hugely actually, because it used to be very black and
white check box e learning. And you know, you ask
most people these days that have worked at a company
that use that legacy technology what their experience is like
with learning it. It's typically quite quite poor. And I
think that's you know, that's where you'd see things like
(37:13):
onboarding modules, compliance modules, tools and system adoption, career progression
content and on demand sales enablements another big one. We
work with a lot of retailers with frontline staff are
out there and selling quite high spec products. How do
they get that information at their fingertips as quickly as
(37:33):
possible to help you help that funnel in regards to sales.
So yeah, there's there's a multitude of touch points that
learning can help with. And like I said, it doesn't
solve all the world's problems in regards to learning, because
I think they're still is that sort.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Of so we're too now, We're too now for your company.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
So I think it's our flagship product is the design
tool that we allow anyone to create good learning that's
on brand and and is more of a It creates
more of a conversation with the learners as opposed to
broadcasting it. But we we also built a data and
analytics platform, which is really interesting because I think the
(38:14):
learning design departments typically get looked at like a cost
center in a business. It's really hard to report from
that return on investment. It's not as binary as a
marketing team. For instance, you know, the conversion design is
quite black and white. We're learning is very different. So
giving them some analytics on the engagement of that content
is really important. You know. I think that that, like
(38:36):
you said earlier, that cybersecurity module that you did, it
would be really interesting to see how you engaged with that.
We fastboarded in the video and we can't assume I assume, sorry,
but that's like we week with Speaks. Savers are really interesting. Actually,
like Chris there in Australia, they do a lot of
(38:58):
digital content on our platform and they actually, you know,
they increased the yeah learner experience from a three point
three out of five to four point six out of
five when they adopted us, because they actually want to
show how people are engaging with that content and they
are going, Okay, Tim, skip through the first three questions
the second.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
I can't do that either.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I can see he got the multichoice questions wrong six times.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
In a row and hopefully not but you know what
I mean.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, So it's a it's an opportunity to enhance that design,
but it's also an opportunity to go back to the
business and go, hey, look you've just you've just invested
in us, to invest in our people, and here's their
return on investment. I want to return on investments really
significant these todaysciate retention.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Good stuff. Hey, thanks, Hey, I really appreciated your time, titling.
Good luck with it all and everything, and thanks for
good time. The people want to check you, check out
your company.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Where do they go cameleon creator dot com? Yeah, good
stuff things on there then, so appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
We'll be back in a moment to wrap things up.
This is news Talk, said B. It is seven and
a half minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to News
Talk ZIEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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