September 21, 2025 • 23 mins
Mental skills coach Gilbert Enoka was instrumental in transforming the All Blacks into one of the greatest sports teams of all time, helping with both the 2011 & 2015 Rugby World Cup wins.
In the episode, Gilbert unpacks the strategies he used in his time with the All Blacks, and how these skills of mental resilience can apply in life beyond the sports field.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We need to talk conversations on wellness with co c
FM's Tony Street.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello, welcome to we need to talk. In sport, they
often say the difference between a good player and a
great player comes down to the top two inches the mind.
It's the ability to stay composed, make the right decisions
under pressure, and to not fold when things get tough.
But it's not just sport. Performing under pressure is something
we all face and our professional lives and our personal lives,
(00:26):
and in those moments when it really counts. My guest
today knows this better than most. Gilbert and Oka is
the mental skills coach who helped transform the All Blacks
into one of the greatest teams of a generation, guiding
them to two Rugby World Cup victories in twenty eleven
and twenty fifteen. He's now put his wisdom into a
new book, Become Unstoppable, The Blueprint from the world's most
(00:48):
successful sports team. It's described as a collection of leadership strategies,
cultural upgrades, and game changing mental skills lessons that we
can all apply far beyond the sports field. I have
to say from a personalist perspective, it really appealed to
me as a netball coach as I try and help
guide and shape a whole bunch of twelve and thirteen
year old girls. So Gilbert is lovely to have you here,
(01:11):
and thank you first of all for putting out this
book and sharing all your secrets with us.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah, thank you Tony for the invitation. It's a pleasure
to be here on the show. And you know, it's
been wonderful to be able to reflect on my journey
and the lessons I've gleaned from the experiences I've had
in both life and in sport.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
And that's what I want to sort of burrow down
and on. You had the lessons around the all Blacks
and all your studies in psychology, but you've also got
a very interesting life and backstory yourself. I did not
know that you grew up in an orphanage in Martin,
for example.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Look, it was, you know, one of those things where
I had no choice over where I was born. I
had no choice over how I was nurtured. And that's
where I was in a care facility in turning them
Road and Martin well cared for by the way, just
you know, just not having that umbilical connection that gives
(02:10):
you that sense of belonging and nourishing that fills the
soul and comes and expresses itself as what we know
is being loved.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Really did that upbringing shape you into the career and
the path that you decided to go down.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Do you think I think more by accident than intention?
You know? I think? You know like it? You know?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
It enabled me to explore different dimensions. And once I
got to an age to be able to make choices
over what I did and where I wanted to go
and what I wanted to do, then I found some
things that I had talent for and sport was one
of them. And so, you know, once I started doing
things in sport and people started telling me I was
quite good at it, I wanted to hear that again.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
So I worked a little bit harder so I could
hear that again.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
And that just took me down an avenue where I
had some luck and meeting some people that gave me
opportunity which put me on a pathway to achieving some
wonderful experiences and results as things unfolded.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, I believe it was volleyball you were representing New
Zealand at when you met Wayne Smith? Is that right?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Yeap volleyball was well.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I started playing rugby but hated it because once once
you sort across the white lines back in my day,
all the laws of society went out the window and
people punched in the head and kicked her, and so
I didn't last long and that, and so I found volleyball.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
It was a passion.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I worked hard at it, got good at it, and
spent ten years representing our country, which was thrilling for
me to be able to have the privilege to do.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And then you came into the high performance sport environment when,
as you say, the national game here was very much
you know, you just get on with it. It's all physical,
it's all practical, and it's airy ferial that mental salth
skills stuff. How hard was it to change people thinking
around that when you first started?
Speaker 4 (04:05):
A huge challenge, Tony.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
You know what I've learned through my work is to
get external movement, you need internal movement. So you can't
just put information in front of people and get transformation.
So in some way you've got to shift something internally
to do it. So with a fixed mindset, that's very difficult, difficult,
And the older people that were governing the game at
(04:29):
that time, God bless their souls were very fixed and
very dogmatic about what they felt was needed, and they
were gatekeepers really, So things only moved when you had
new age coaches who understood that the biggest problems the
players were having weren't physical ones. They were ones where
(04:52):
they were mental challenges, about staying on tasks, about concentrating better,
about getting greater commitment. And the door would never be
opened without those people like Wayne's for me, Wayne Smith,
Lee Gibbs, Keith Meyer, all those people who were cutting
tracks long before psychology sports ecology became an accepted discipline
(05:15):
and appreciated discipline.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And I look at sort of the eighties in that
environment when it was all very new, and I look
at today's modern world, and I even look at my
kids coming through and my eldest is about to turn thirteen,
and the different pressures mentally they have now, with social
media and with games being filmed and people being able
to access them, you could argue that these mental skills
(05:40):
are possibly more important now than they were back then.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Absolutely, Tony. I tell people, don't chase motivation, just build
a system. Build a great system, and that system needs
to involve zeroing in on things mentally.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I used to tell people, and even at the all
Black level, who weren't applying the same amount of discipline
to the mental game as they were the physical one.
I used to say, if you're not working on your
mental game, then somebody else is in one day you're
going to meet. And that's a very scary proposition for people.
Like in the book, I talk about the wholy hour,
(06:16):
you know, where you reflect on you know what going
to what are some obstacles for me in the coming day?
Most of them, I think you'll find a mental And
then once you understand that your mindset is a skill set,
and that your skill sets don't work unless your mindset's right,
and that working on that is not a weakness, it's
actually a strength through which you access the talents and
(06:39):
all the things you've done and you've trained. So I
kind of am pretty keen for people to look at
it with an open mind and then apply the discipline
and structure to have regular sojunes into it. And if
you can do at a young age really simply, then
you create a habit which I think you'll get a
good return for the track.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
This is we need to talk with Tony Street.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
What does it look like practically the results of doing
this work? You know, are we talking about the netballer
that in the closing stages won't throw that stray pass away?
We are we talking about I don't know that the
theater student that doesn't forget their lines when you know,
it feels like the whole world is closing in on them.
(07:27):
What do the results look like? What does it How
does it affect you?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
It's all of those things that you can't script this,
you know, like the world of high pressure and high
performance and everyone's in it, you know, like parents, coaches,
business leaders, school kids, captains of your you know, twelve
and thirteen year old teams. There's lessons and stories and
tools that can help them lead from inside those roles.
(07:54):
And what we do know is and the book challenges
the paradigm that pressure is the privilege that you lean
into pressure. You know that, you know, you walk towards it,
you do those things, But on't you understand once you understand,
it's not about rising above pressure. It's about accepting that
everything in a high performance environment is about pressure. As
(08:15):
a parent, you know, you know yourself as a parent,
it's huge amounts of pressure. So it's not rising above that,
it's getting inside that bubble understanding that there's going to
be discomfort. Inside that understanding, there's some tools that you
can use to help navigate your way through it. And
then then you apply the principles like you know, one
size fits one, this, one size fits all, kicknapp the touch.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
You know, be where your feet.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Are, so just deal with what's immediately in front of you.
You don't have to be at your best at every moment,
but you've got to be at your best when your
best is needed. So all of a sudden, these principles
come to the fore and they're applicable across a wide spectrum,
and so you see people making better decisions in moments
that really matter. And that's that's what happens. It's not
(09:04):
all moments and time equal, but if you do develop
this piece of your skill set, then you're more likely
to make the right decision in the right moment at
the right time, and through that you'll get more success
in the endeavors that you are involved with.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You've certainly got that proven track record with the All Blacks,
for sure, and many other teams as well. How often
are we meant to spend on these mental skills? You know,
if you're coaching a sports team or if you're wanting
to be better mentally yourself, is this a daily thing
we're doing?
Speaker 4 (09:38):
People?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Quite often you hear people say it's ninety you know,
it's ninety percent physical and ten percent mental, or it's
the opposite way around. I think it's one hundred and
one hundred, you know, like sometimes it's all mental. You know,
your obstacle, you won't move unless you actually can shift yourself,
and and that becomes, you know, part of it. But
as long as you you know, I love people. People,
(10:01):
you know, to open an office door and somebody says,
what are you doing and you're saying, well, I'm working
on identifying situations that I can't control in the next
twenty four hours and working out a response for them.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
That's mental skills work.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
A lot of time people talk about working on who
I am, you know that that comes within their role,
And how often do they talk about how I am?
You know, So you can't improve what you won't talk about.
You can't train what you won't talk about. So setting
up structures where you can have conversation that's mental work.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
And so you know, I'd like.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
To think that there's a window and every week, and
there's a small window in most days where you just
reflect on what are your goals mentally for the day,
what are the potential obstacles and should they arise, what
am I going to do to enable I move through
quickly and don't get stuck, and you'll get good returns
Tony for spending time. And like anything, it's you've got
(11:01):
to learn the craft. You know, you can talk to
people and read stuff. And this book is not a theory.
It's not a book of theories. You'll know having read it.
You know I've deliberately structured every chapter with that to
poona to key, which is, you know, the wellspring of wisdom.
So you know, Poona means the well or it's a source,
(11:22):
a source where you get wisdom from and a maoridom.
We get it from the land and the sea and
the mountains and the fartanui and the stories that have
passed down and then bought. We get it from the
changing sheds, the meeting rooms, the failures, the losses, the
toil without reward, but there's wisdom in them and it's
the part of the chapter not just to be read,
(11:43):
but to be felt, you know. And and through that
reflection comes learning and the widows, you know, the every
chapter has a widow where you know, we lay down
the monuculi. If it's a call to action, and and
you know, it's not an exam to pass, it's a
it's a doorway to walk through. And I tell people
(12:04):
read you the book, let it land. Let the seeds.
Sometimes seeds need to take root, and then go back
and look at the widows with intention, and the ones
that stir something inside you at that time, they've got
your name on it. And so just work on one
or two of those, and all of a sudden you're
doing mental work. And in that way, it's a book
(12:26):
you'll never finish because you'll keep coming back to it
because you're always different and the challenges and that way,
the book's quite unique and quite different and quite useful.
And as with most things, it's only useful if it's used.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It's so true and I totally agree with that. The
practical element. I love that part of the book because
it's one thing to read it all, but it's like, well,
how do I actually do it? And one of the
concepts I really liked was that critical friend. Can you
talk to me about that and how we can use
that in our everyday life?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Great pick up Tony, Like we we sort of learned
that by default in The All Blacks because most times
men in particular, when they get under pressure, they go
inward and we go insular and we don't share. And
so an environment like the All Blacks accentuates pressure like
a boyd is it. It puts everything into a pressure
(13:18):
cooker and you wake up and everything you work for
comes down to what happens today. There's severe expectations, there's
high scrutiny and consequences for all that. But if you
don't let the valve off and you don't share it
with anybody, then it becomes a very very lonely existence.
So we set up a system where we got people
(13:39):
to choose a critical friend. You don't impose it on them.
You've got to choose someone you feel comfortable with. And
so I might choose somebody and then we go and
I might have don't have a bear with them, or
once a week you don't have as compulsory that you
catch up. And I used to give them a little structure,
two or three questions, you know, just to follow so
that you can sort of help them open the door.
(14:01):
You know, what's gone well for you? Where have you
struggled this week? What's gone What could you have done better?
You missed the time, but on reflection, you could have
done that better. And you give two or three questions
and they open up, have those conversation and you don't
have to go anywhere. Just the sharing is wonderful, and
(14:22):
so we do that regularly. We do that consistency, and
oh look, I think school kids could do it. I
think people in business could do it. In all walks
of life. Having somebody that ask a little bit of
a question that opens forces you to take a little
bit of a swallow, but then when you let out
what you're actually thinking, it frees you up in a
way that decompresses you wonderfully.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
You're listening to we need to talk with Tony Street?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
How do you choose that critical friend? And the reason
I liked it is I've just launched an online communication
course and I talk about having a hype person for
when you have to public sp having that person that
you can say exactly that this didn't go well, but
also someone to remind you that you are good and
if you're having self doubts, they hype you up and
they remind you why you're the right person to be speaking.
(15:12):
But getting that person right's quite important. So how do
you go about choosing that critical friend?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah, well it's it's a good question because if you
get it wrong and you know you don't last too long.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
That's not so critical.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
No, they're not, but I mean sometimes people can. You know,
it's a privilege to be asked to have. And it's
two way, by the way, so you know, I share,
you share, we share, we convert, don't have to go anywhere,
but it just it's event in a way too, you
know where you and I. You know, I'm very very
big on getting people to vent about their joy not
(15:48):
just about their problems, because we spend too much time
doing that. We spend we come together and all we
do is focusing on the problems. So crey it up
and say, well, what are you joyful for? Because you
know if you don't, it's spend time doing that and
you rush past those moments you're you're misfeeling the warmth
of it all.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So key Wes are good at that though, Are they
with that sharing what's going well for them?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Absolutely? And the bombs are even worse, but so true.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
But I mean to choose somebody that you feel comfortable with,
and you know it's a privilege. So and then you've
got to be able to read the moment where you know,
sometimes you can let the rope out a little bit,
and you know, sometimes you've got to pull it in
a bit and where you go. Sometimes it's too far
for people when you're you just got to give permission.
But most people when you when you sell the concept
(16:38):
and they think they know the person. This person would
be great for me, and and so you know, I
just know the type of person that would listen.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
And you need to be asked, asked the hard.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Question too, not to the point that it pushes your
head under the water, but you know, it makes you
reflect on how you've done something, whether it could be
done better.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
How am I?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
You know, so you're not just talking about your role,
You're talking about the state you're in. Because if you
don't get that part right, you know, the sort of
how I am as struggling, then you know who I
am will eventually feel it. So having the right critical
friend to help do that, and I think who I
(17:22):
like to name it and time it. So I'm going
to meet with you, Tony, You're my critical friend. We're
going to have twenty minutes no longer.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yep, you know it.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
You know it's tight, and it's structured in a way
where we've got some things we want to go to
so that we don't just have a nice conversation. There's
got to be a piece in there that involves a
little bit of discomfort just to help free up anything
that may be stuck.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
You've worked with some incredible athletes over your time, the
lights of the Richie McCalls and the Karen Reads, and
the Dan Carter's and the Andy Ellis's. From everything that
you have observed and witnessed at times of streets and pressure,
can you narrow it down to one or two critical
things that they do better than others to cope with
those situations?
Speaker 4 (18:08):
You know, the people you.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Talk about are supremely talented individuals, but in the still
feel pressure. You know, there's not there's not one person
that I've worked with that doesn't feel it. It's you know,
they invite it in the end, and they understand how
to navigate their way through it. And you know the
great thing about this whole whole area is that you
(18:33):
you know, your high performance isn't about being special. You know,
you don't need a gift. You've just got to be
ready and you've got to be prepared. And that's what
all those men and the woman you know, like you know,
my launcher had Leslie Nickel and be Nast, many wonderful
netballers that have worked with through my time and all
(18:55):
the great people. They've got this great talent and they've
got this great ability. But what they've done is I've
had the discipline to actually put the work in to
make sure that they're prepared and they're ready for those
moments where things really matter. So you don't have to
be special, you don't have to be gifted. You just
got to be ready, and you've got to roll the
(19:15):
sleeves up and do the money to do the work
in it.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
And they'll all tell.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
You in the big moments, you don't have to pull
a rabbit out of the hat, and a lot of
people do. All you've got to do is just do
the basics brilliantly, and if you're attuned to that and
you connect to that and you've got the ability that
they have then where they inspire us all the ways
that take.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Our breath away.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Absolutely, How do you see your work crossing over from
the sports field to everyday life, into the workplace, into
other areas of people's personal lives?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
In writing this book, I wanted a school kid. I
did a presentation at the Word Festival in christ Church
last Sunday. There were three hundred people from the christ
Church community in there and the age range in the
room was nineteen to ninety.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
So we had the whole spectrum and I love that.
You know, there's there's thing school kids will get out
of it when they read it, and there's people. Business
people will get things out of it. Grassroots people will
get out of it, Elite people will get things out
of it, and people in the retirement village. Well, you know,
everyone needs structure, everyone needs discipline. You know, everyone basically
(20:27):
needs to understand that being successful in sport and life
is to win the duel between the mind and your emotion.
You know, and no matter what you're doing or you're
a human being, that's the duel you've got to win
if you want to perform well, and I ask people
which comes first, you know, your thoughts or your feelings
and go, well, I'm not sure about that, And I said, well,
(20:47):
next time you're on the road someone pulls out in
front of you, ask yourself that question and you'll find
that emotions are the things that happened before you even think,
so you're never going to stop them. But what we
have to do is be able to learn to manage
them in a way that can help us be productive.
So in that way, it's it's a book for everyone,
(21:09):
and the skills will help you in whatever you're doing
in every walk of life.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Can we just finish by reflecting on your life? You
know this kid that was brought up in Martin in
an orphanage, and you went on to work with some
of the best teams in the world, the All Blacks,
the Silver Ferns, NRL teams, Premier League Football teams. Do
you pinch yourself and think, Wow, this is not how
I thought it would turn out?
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Oh boy, do I ever?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
You know, I used to think that that there was
different species on Earth as human beings. There was a
group that was destined for these great environments like you've
just described, and then there were the others that just
foraged around in the forest and just picked up all
the scraps. And I thought that was me, you know,
(21:57):
that was my role. And I had huge imposter sindrome
when I first started with the orbit. It's because I
sort of think, hold on a minute, you shouldn't be here.
And that's when I had the belief of people like
Wayne Smith and Lee Gibbs who so believed in me.
And to be successful in life, you believing, and it's
one thing, but boy, if you've got someone who believes
(22:18):
in you, what a superpowered booster that is for you.
So I do pinch me myself. I think the tough
environments like the orphanage seasoned me. The morlings and the media,
you know, they were never easy on, you know, whilst
the officials were tough on in my area. So it
was the media, you know, they were real tough. Yeah,
(22:39):
and so but all of those seasoned me in a way,
and it gave me a perspective that helped me to
get better at what I was doing. And that's my job,
helped people get better at getting better.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Oh well, Gilbert, it's been a pleasure to talk to
you and I already know that the book is selling well,
and I'm not surprised in this modern era. I think
ironically it was new back in the eighties, but I
feel like even more important now for this current crop
of players and humans that are coming through. So congratulations
and I am sure it will continue to be a
(23:12):
real success.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Thank you, Tony, and congratulations to you and where you've
taken yourself and what you're doing too. You're a wonderful
inspiration to a lot of New Zealanders.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
We need to talk with Coast FMS Tony Street. If
you enjoyed the podcast, click to share with family or friends.
To get in touch email, we need to talk at
Coast Online, dot co dot MZ
We need to talk conversations on wellness with co c
FM's Tony Street.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello, welcome to we need to talk. In sport, they
often say the difference between a good player and a
great player comes down to the top two inches the mind.
It's the ability to stay composed, make the right decisions
under pressure, and to not fold when things get tough.
But it's not just sport. Performing under pressure is something
we all face and our professional lives and our personal lives,
(00:26):
and in those moments when it really counts. My guest
today knows this better than most. Gilbert and Oka is
the mental skills coach who helped transform the All Blacks
into one of the greatest teams of a generation, guiding
them to two Rugby World Cup victories in twenty eleven
and twenty fifteen. He's now put his wisdom into a
new book, Become Unstoppable, The Blueprint from the world's most
(00:48):
successful sports team. It's described as a collection of leadership strategies,
cultural upgrades, and game changing mental skills lessons that we
can all apply far beyond the sports field. I have
to say from a personalist perspective, it really appealed to
me as a netball coach as I try and help
guide and shape a whole bunch of twelve and thirteen
year old girls. So Gilbert is lovely to have you here,
(01:11):
and thank you first of all for putting out this
book and sharing all your secrets with us.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah, thank you Tony for the invitation. It's a pleasure
to be here on the show. And you know, it's
been wonderful to be able to reflect on my journey
and the lessons I've gleaned from the experiences I've had
in both life and in sport.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
And that's what I want to sort of burrow down
and on. You had the lessons around the all Blacks
and all your studies in psychology, but you've also got
a very interesting life and backstory yourself. I did not
know that you grew up in an orphanage in Martin,
for example.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Look, it was, you know, one of those things where
I had no choice over where I was born. I
had no choice over how I was nurtured. And that's
where I was in a care facility in turning them
Road and Martin well cared for by the way, just
you know, just not having that umbilical connection that gives
(02:10):
you that sense of belonging and nourishing that fills the
soul and comes and expresses itself as what we know
is being loved.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Really did that upbringing shape you into the career and
the path that you decided to go down.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Do you think I think more by accident than intention?
You know? I think? You know like it? You know?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
It enabled me to explore different dimensions. And once I
got to an age to be able to make choices
over what I did and where I wanted to go
and what I wanted to do, then I found some
things that I had talent for and sport was one
of them. And so, you know, once I started doing
things in sport and people started telling me I was
quite good at it, I wanted to hear that again.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
So I worked a little bit harder so I could
hear that again.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
And that just took me down an avenue where I
had some luck and meeting some people that gave me
opportunity which put me on a pathway to achieving some
wonderful experiences and results as things unfolded.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, I believe it was volleyball you were representing New
Zealand at when you met Wayne Smith? Is that right?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Yeap volleyball was well.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I started playing rugby but hated it because once once
you sort across the white lines back in my day,
all the laws of society went out the window and
people punched in the head and kicked her, and so
I didn't last long and that, and so I found volleyball.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
It was a passion.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I worked hard at it, got good at it, and
spent ten years representing our country, which was thrilling for
me to be able to have the privilege to do.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And then you came into the high performance sport environment when,
as you say, the national game here was very much
you know, you just get on with it. It's all physical,
it's all practical, and it's airy ferial that mental salth
skills stuff. How hard was it to change people thinking
around that when you first started?
Speaker 4 (04:05):
A huge challenge, Tony.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
You know what I've learned through my work is to
get external movement, you need internal movement. So you can't
just put information in front of people and get transformation.
So in some way you've got to shift something internally
to do it. So with a fixed mindset, that's very difficult, difficult,
And the older people that were governing the game at
(04:29):
that time, God bless their souls were very fixed and
very dogmatic about what they felt was needed, and they
were gatekeepers really, So things only moved when you had
new age coaches who understood that the biggest problems the
players were having weren't physical ones. They were ones where
(04:52):
they were mental challenges, about staying on tasks, about concentrating better,
about getting greater commitment. And the door would never be
opened without those people like Wayne's for me, Wayne Smith,
Lee Gibbs, Keith Meyer, all those people who were cutting
tracks long before psychology sports ecology became an accepted discipline
(05:15):
and appreciated discipline.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And I look at sort of the eighties in that
environment when it was all very new, and I look
at today's modern world, and I even look at my
kids coming through and my eldest is about to turn thirteen,
and the different pressures mentally they have now, with social
media and with games being filmed and people being able
to access them, you could argue that these mental skills
(05:40):
are possibly more important now than they were back then.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Absolutely, Tony. I tell people, don't chase motivation, just build
a system. Build a great system, and that system needs
to involve zeroing in on things mentally.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I used to tell people, and even at the all
Black level, who weren't applying the same amount of discipline
to the mental game as they were the physical one.
I used to say, if you're not working on your
mental game, then somebody else is in one day you're
going to meet. And that's a very scary proposition for people.
Like in the book, I talk about the wholy hour,
(06:16):
you know, where you reflect on you know what going
to what are some obstacles for me in the coming day?
Most of them, I think you'll find a mental And
then once you understand that your mindset is a skill set,
and that your skill sets don't work unless your mindset's right,
and that working on that is not a weakness, it's
actually a strength through which you access the talents and
(06:39):
all the things you've done and you've trained. So I
kind of am pretty keen for people to look at
it with an open mind and then apply the discipline
and structure to have regular sojunes into it. And if
you can do at a young age really simply, then
you create a habit which I think you'll get a
good return for the track.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
This is we need to talk with Tony Street.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
What does it look like practically the results of doing
this work? You know, are we talking about the netballer
that in the closing stages won't throw that stray pass away?
We are we talking about I don't know that the
theater student that doesn't forget their lines when you know,
it feels like the whole world is closing in on them.
(07:27):
What do the results look like? What does it How
does it affect you?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
It's all of those things that you can't script this,
you know, like the world of high pressure and high
performance and everyone's in it, you know, like parents, coaches,
business leaders, school kids, captains of your you know, twelve
and thirteen year old teams. There's lessons and stories and
tools that can help them lead from inside those roles.
(07:54):
And what we do know is and the book challenges
the paradigm that pressure is the privilege that you lean
into pressure. You know that, you know, you walk towards it,
you do those things, But on't you understand once you understand,
it's not about rising above pressure. It's about accepting that
everything in a high performance environment is about pressure. As
(08:15):
a parent, you know, you know yourself as a parent,
it's huge amounts of pressure. So it's not rising above that,
it's getting inside that bubble understanding that there's going to
be discomfort. Inside that understanding, there's some tools that you
can use to help navigate your way through it. And
then then you apply the principles like you know, one
size fits one, this, one size fits all, kicknapp the touch.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
You know, be where your feet.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Are, so just deal with what's immediately in front of you.
You don't have to be at your best at every moment,
but you've got to be at your best when your
best is needed. So all of a sudden, these principles
come to the fore and they're applicable across a wide spectrum,
and so you see people making better decisions in moments
that really matter. And that's that's what happens. It's not
(09:04):
all moments and time equal, but if you do develop
this piece of your skill set, then you're more likely
to make the right decision in the right moment at
the right time, and through that you'll get more success
in the endeavors that you are involved with.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You've certainly got that proven track record with the All Blacks,
for sure, and many other teams as well. How often
are we meant to spend on these mental skills? You know,
if you're coaching a sports team or if you're wanting
to be better mentally yourself, is this a daily thing
we're doing?
Speaker 4 (09:38):
People?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Quite often you hear people say it's ninety you know,
it's ninety percent physical and ten percent mental, or it's
the opposite way around. I think it's one hundred and
one hundred, you know, like sometimes it's all mental. You know,
your obstacle, you won't move unless you actually can shift yourself,
and and that becomes, you know, part of it. But
as long as you you know, I love people. People,
(10:01):
you know, to open an office door and somebody says,
what are you doing and you're saying, well, I'm working
on identifying situations that I can't control in the next
twenty four hours and working out a response for them.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
That's mental skills work.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
A lot of time people talk about working on who
I am, you know that that comes within their role,
And how often do they talk about how I am?
You know, So you can't improve what you won't talk about.
You can't train what you won't talk about. So setting
up structures where you can have conversation that's mental work.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
And so you know, I'd like.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
To think that there's a window and every week, and
there's a small window in most days where you just
reflect on what are your goals mentally for the day,
what are the potential obstacles and should they arise, what
am I going to do to enable I move through
quickly and don't get stuck, and you'll get good returns
Tony for spending time. And like anything, it's you've got
(11:01):
to learn the craft. You know, you can talk to
people and read stuff. And this book is not a theory.
It's not a book of theories. You'll know having read it.
You know I've deliberately structured every chapter with that to
poona to key, which is, you know, the wellspring of wisdom.
So you know, Poona means the well or it's a source,
(11:22):
a source where you get wisdom from and a maoridom.
We get it from the land and the sea and
the mountains and the fartanui and the stories that have
passed down and then bought. We get it from the
changing sheds, the meeting rooms, the failures, the losses, the
toil without reward, but there's wisdom in them and it's
the part of the chapter not just to be read,
(11:43):
but to be felt, you know. And and through that
reflection comes learning and the widows, you know, the every
chapter has a widow where you know, we lay down
the monuculi. If it's a call to action, and and
you know, it's not an exam to pass, it's a
it's a doorway to walk through. And I tell people
(12:04):
read you the book, let it land. Let the seeds.
Sometimes seeds need to take root, and then go back
and look at the widows with intention, and the ones
that stir something inside you at that time, they've got
your name on it. And so just work on one
or two of those, and all of a sudden you're
doing mental work. And in that way, it's a book
(12:26):
you'll never finish because you'll keep coming back to it
because you're always different and the challenges and that way,
the book's quite unique and quite different and quite useful.
And as with most things, it's only useful if it's used.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It's so true and I totally agree with that. The
practical element. I love that part of the book because
it's one thing to read it all, but it's like, well,
how do I actually do it? And one of the
concepts I really liked was that critical friend. Can you
talk to me about that and how we can use
that in our everyday life?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Great pick up Tony, Like we we sort of learned
that by default in The All Blacks because most times
men in particular, when they get under pressure, they go
inward and we go insular and we don't share. And
so an environment like the All Blacks accentuates pressure like
a boyd is it. It puts everything into a pressure
(13:18):
cooker and you wake up and everything you work for
comes down to what happens today. There's severe expectations, there's
high scrutiny and consequences for all that. But if you
don't let the valve off and you don't share it
with anybody, then it becomes a very very lonely existence.
So we set up a system where we got people
(13:39):
to choose a critical friend. You don't impose it on them.
You've got to choose someone you feel comfortable with. And
so I might choose somebody and then we go and
I might have don't have a bear with them, or
once a week you don't have as compulsory that you
catch up. And I used to give them a little structure,
two or three questions, you know, just to follow so
that you can sort of help them open the door.
(14:01):
You know, what's gone well for you? Where have you
struggled this week? What's gone What could you have done better?
You missed the time, but on reflection, you could have
done that better. And you give two or three questions
and they open up, have those conversation and you don't
have to go anywhere. Just the sharing is wonderful, and
(14:22):
so we do that regularly. We do that consistency, and
oh look, I think school kids could do it. I
think people in business could do it. In all walks
of life. Having somebody that ask a little bit of
a question that opens forces you to take a little
bit of a swallow, but then when you let out
what you're actually thinking, it frees you up in a
way that decompresses you wonderfully.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
You're listening to we need to talk with Tony Street?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
How do you choose that critical friend? And the reason
I liked it is I've just launched an online communication
course and I talk about having a hype person for
when you have to public sp having that person that
you can say exactly that this didn't go well, but
also someone to remind you that you are good and
if you're having self doubts, they hype you up and
they remind you why you're the right person to be speaking.
(15:12):
But getting that person right's quite important. So how do
you go about choosing that critical friend?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah, well it's it's a good question because if you
get it wrong and you know you don't last too long.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
That's not so critical.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
No, they're not, but I mean sometimes people can. You know,
it's a privilege to be asked to have. And it's
two way, by the way, so you know, I share,
you share, we share, we convert, don't have to go anywhere,
but it just it's event in a way too, you
know where you and I. You know, I'm very very
big on getting people to vent about their joy not
(15:48):
just about their problems, because we spend too much time
doing that. We spend we come together and all we
do is focusing on the problems. So crey it up
and say, well, what are you joyful for? Because you
know if you don't, it's spend time doing that and
you rush past those moments you're you're misfeeling the warmth
of it all.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So key Wes are good at that though, Are they
with that sharing what's going well for them?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Absolutely? And the bombs are even worse, but so true.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
But I mean to choose somebody that you feel comfortable with,
and you know it's a privilege. So and then you've
got to be able to read the moment where you know,
sometimes you can let the rope out a little bit,
and you know, sometimes you've got to pull it in
a bit and where you go. Sometimes it's too far
for people when you're you just got to give permission.
But most people when you when you sell the concept
(16:38):
and they think they know the person. This person would
be great for me, and and so you know, I
just know the type of person that would listen.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
And you need to be asked, asked the hard.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Question too, not to the point that it pushes your
head under the water, but you know, it makes you
reflect on how you've done something, whether it could be
done better.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
How am I?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
You know, so you're not just talking about your role,
You're talking about the state you're in. Because if you
don't get that part right, you know, the sort of
how I am as struggling, then you know who I
am will eventually feel it. So having the right critical
friend to help do that, and I think who I
(17:22):
like to name it and time it. So I'm going
to meet with you, Tony, You're my critical friend. We're
going to have twenty minutes no longer.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yep, you know it.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
You know it's tight, and it's structured in a way
where we've got some things we want to go to
so that we don't just have a nice conversation. There's
got to be a piece in there that involves a
little bit of discomfort just to help free up anything
that may be stuck.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
You've worked with some incredible athletes over your time, the
lights of the Richie McCalls and the Karen Reads, and
the Dan Carter's and the Andy Ellis's. From everything that
you have observed and witnessed at times of streets and pressure,
can you narrow it down to one or two critical
things that they do better than others to cope with
those situations?
Speaker 4 (18:08):
You know, the people you.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Talk about are supremely talented individuals, but in the still
feel pressure. You know, there's not there's not one person
that I've worked with that doesn't feel it. It's you know,
they invite it in the end, and they understand how
to navigate their way through it. And you know the
great thing about this whole whole area is that you
(18:33):
you know, your high performance isn't about being special. You know,
you don't need a gift. You've just got to be
ready and you've got to be prepared. And that's what
all those men and the woman you know, like you know,
my launcher had Leslie Nickel and be Nast, many wonderful
netballers that have worked with through my time and all
(18:55):
the great people. They've got this great talent and they've
got this great ability. But what they've done is I've
had the discipline to actually put the work in to
make sure that they're prepared and they're ready for those
moments where things really matter. So you don't have to
be special, you don't have to be gifted. You just
got to be ready, and you've got to roll the
(19:15):
sleeves up and do the money to do the work
in it.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
And they'll all tell.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
You in the big moments, you don't have to pull
a rabbit out of the hat, and a lot of
people do. All you've got to do is just do
the basics brilliantly, and if you're attuned to that and
you connect to that and you've got the ability that
they have then where they inspire us all the ways
that take.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Our breath away.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Absolutely, How do you see your work crossing over from
the sports field to everyday life, into the workplace, into
other areas of people's personal lives?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
In writing this book, I wanted a school kid. I
did a presentation at the Word Festival in christ Church
last Sunday. There were three hundred people from the christ
Church community in there and the age range in the
room was nineteen to ninety.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
So we had the whole spectrum and I love that.
You know, there's there's thing school kids will get out
of it when they read it, and there's people. Business
people will get things out of it. Grassroots people will
get out of it, Elite people will get things out
of it, and people in the retirement village. Well, you know,
everyone needs structure, everyone needs discipline. You know, everyone basically
(20:27):
needs to understand that being successful in sport and life
is to win the duel between the mind and your emotion.
You know, and no matter what you're doing or you're
a human being, that's the duel you've got to win
if you want to perform well, and I ask people
which comes first, you know, your thoughts or your feelings
and go, well, I'm not sure about that, And I said, well,
(20:47):
next time you're on the road someone pulls out in
front of you, ask yourself that question and you'll find
that emotions are the things that happened before you even think,
so you're never going to stop them. But what we
have to do is be able to learn to manage
them in a way that can help us be productive.
So in that way, it's it's a book for everyone,
(21:09):
and the skills will help you in whatever you're doing
in every walk of life.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Can we just finish by reflecting on your life? You
know this kid that was brought up in Martin in
an orphanage, and you went on to work with some
of the best teams in the world, the All Blacks,
the Silver Ferns, NRL teams, Premier League Football teams. Do
you pinch yourself and think, Wow, this is not how
I thought it would turn out?
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Oh boy, do I ever?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
You know, I used to think that that there was
different species on Earth as human beings. There was a
group that was destined for these great environments like you've
just described, and then there were the others that just
foraged around in the forest and just picked up all
the scraps. And I thought that was me, you know,
(21:57):
that was my role. And I had huge imposter sindrome
when I first started with the orbit. It's because I
sort of think, hold on a minute, you shouldn't be here.
And that's when I had the belief of people like
Wayne Smith and Lee Gibbs who so believed in me.
And to be successful in life, you believing, and it's
one thing, but boy, if you've got someone who believes
(22:18):
in you, what a superpowered booster that is for you.
So I do pinch me myself. I think the tough
environments like the orphanage seasoned me. The morlings and the media,
you know, they were never easy on, you know, whilst
the officials were tough on in my area. So it
was the media, you know, they were real tough. Yeah,
(22:39):
and so but all of those seasoned me in a way,
and it gave me a perspective that helped me to
get better at what I was doing. And that's my job,
helped people get better at getting better.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Oh well, Gilbert, it's been a pleasure to talk to
you and I already know that the book is selling well,
and I'm not surprised in this modern era. I think
ironically it was new back in the eighties, but I
feel like even more important now for this current crop
of players and humans that are coming through. So congratulations
and I am sure it will continue to be a
(23:12):
real success.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Thank you, Tony, and congratulations to you and where you've
taken yourself and what you're doing too. You're a wonderful
inspiration to a lot of New Zealanders.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
We need to talk with Coast FMS Tony Street. If
you enjoyed the podcast, click to share with family or friends.
To get in touch email, we need to talk at
Coast Online, dot co dot MZ
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