The All Blacks start a test match on Saturday under coach Scott Robertson with someone other than Damian McKenzie at first-five for the first time.
Beauden Barrett will instead run the cutter against the Wallabies at Sky Stadium, his first start at No. 10 since 2022, with a former All Black playmaker saying that should remain the case as he doesn’t see McKenzie as being at the level of an international first-five.
Carlos Spencer made 35 test appearances in black and only five players have scored more points for the All Blacks than him.
A player of similar style to McKenzie with a prized ability to unlock defences through innovative plays, he tells Newstalk ZB’s Jason Pine he sees the 29-year-old as better suited to fullback.
“I almost feel a little bit sorry for him to be honest. It’s been a tough little road for him, obviously on the back of a team that probably hasn’t performed to its potential and unfortunately it’s usually the No. 10 that takes most of the stick.
“I’ve always considered Damian as a better fullback than a No.10.”
Spencer says McKenzie’s Super Rugby form in the position is evident but does not see him as a test-level first-five.
“Personally, no. I don’t think he is. I think he’s great at Super level but when it comes to test matches I just don’t think he’s got what it takes to be a really assertive No. 10 unfortunately.
“I like Damian McKenzie, I think he’s a great player but I just find that he’s better suited at fullback than 10.”
More time and space on the ball that is found when playing with 15 on his back, rather than 10, is what Spencer says makes McKenzie more suited to fullback.
“He’s got more time to make decisions, there’s a bit more space, he enters the line well. I think he can see more from at the back.
“That doesn’t stop him from jumping into first receiver occasionally from fullback, but I think those are the biggest points. I think he just lacks that direction at test match level where it’s really important.”
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine
from newstalk edb.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Head an r rup oh to feed the scrump, Nanara
gets it in, Savia gets it out, cats it over
the touchline. The All Blacks hang on to win the match.
The All Blacks hang on to the Bledisloe three tries
in the opening sixteen minutes and then got the fright
of their life. The All Blacks thirty one Australia twenty eighth.
(00:36):
The Bledisloe stays in New Zealand for another year. But
that was less than emphetic in.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
The end, There certainly was. That was a week ago
in Sydney. Tonight the two teams renew hostilities at Sky
Stadium in Wellington, where the show is coming to you
from today plenty of chat when the team was announced
on Thursday. Around the first five position after starting the
first seven Test matches of the year, Damien McKenzie will
come off the bench tonight, with Bowden Barrett starting in
(01:02):
the ten jersey. It'll be his first start at first
for the All Blacks since he played there against Scotland
on the end of year tour in twenty twenty two.
One of our great running first fives was Carlos Spencer
thirty five Test matches between nineteen ninety five and two
thousand and four, scoring nearly three hundred points. He was
particularly prominent in the unbeaten Test year of nineteen ninety seven,
(01:26):
during which he made his Test debut, and of course
in two thousand and three, when he played pretty much
every Test match, including both Bledislow Cup matches when New
Zealand won the Cup back after not having had it
for five years. Carlos Spencer is with us carloson to
start in general terms, what have you made of Damien
McKenzie's performances at first five for the All Blacks this year?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
You go twenty Yeah, Look, I almost said a little
bit sorry from to be honest, but you know, it's
been a tough little road for him, you know, obviously
on the back of a team that probably hasn't really
performed to the temple, and unfortunately it's usually the number
ten that takes most of the stick. You know, I've
(02:14):
sort of always considered Damien as a better full bet
than a number ten, but yeah, just really, I suppose
hasn't been able to give the direction that besides needs.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Do you think he is, though a capable test match first.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Five perfonally though, I don't think he is. I think
he's great at super super level, but when it comes
to test matches, Yeah, I just don't think he's he's
got what it takes to be a really good suited
number ten. Unfortunately. Hey, look, well I like Damien McKenzie.
I think he's a great player. But yeah, I just
(02:54):
I just find him he's better suited at fall bet
than ten. To be honest, what.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Is it about his play that that has been a
suited to the fifteen jersey than perhaps the ten jersey.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Oh, I think he's just got a bit more timers.
You know, he's got more time to make decisions, he's
a bit more space he because the line well, you know,
and I think he just can you know, he can
see more from at the beck and it doesn't stop
him from you know, jumping into Fiers receiver occasionally pull back.
(03:27):
But yeah, I think those are the biggest points. But
you know, I think he just left that direction. It
tests evel where it's really important.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Do you think the fact that he's so adventurous or
more adventurous perhaps than than a more traditional first five
means that he gets a bit more flat when things
go wrong, because people just think he's a bit of ratic.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yeah, I think it is the case. And you know,
there's one person that knows there to understand that, it's
probably me, because I was probably one of those players myself,
you know, you know, so I do feel for Damien.
You know, it's a tough decision, especially at test mitch level,
and you know, and like I said earlier, you're probably
playing in the team that really ain't you know, dominating
(04:13):
like they used to. You know, I think that they're struggling,
but up front and when the team struggles up front
of it, but you know, it's it's you know, it's
a little bit harder for a number ten to to
sort of fulfill of his role in his draw.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I suppose did any of your coaches, Carlos at provincial
super or particularly at all backs level, did they ever
try to tone down your attacking instance get you a
reigned in a bit.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yes and no. You know, obviously we had a game
plan to follow and we spoke about that. And you know,
if I did three off the train tracks too much,
then you know, I was obviously spoken to. But I
think the good thing about the most of the coaches
I had, they sort of understood the sort of player
(04:59):
that I was, which was good, you know. And I
suppose for me it was just about understanding myself what
was right for the team. I suppose in that moment.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
How long did that take to get you know, to
get it right most of the time for you? Or
did you feel as though you made your decisions pretty
right from the start.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
That definitely took a while. You know, it was never
right from the start, you know, and there was always
a progress thing. I think, especially number ten, you know,
do you get it right every time? No, you don't,
and that's why, yeah, sort of right and the people
around you as well. And I think that's the same
thing for Damien, you know, I think when you look
(05:40):
at the guys around him, are they giving them the
help in the direction that he needs. I don't think
they are. You know. I was lucky coming through at
my time. You know, I had some good players around me,
good experience around me that you know, we're able to
help me, especially when times were tough.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
So are you talking about his teammates sort of in
and around him in the back line, you're talking about
the coaching staff, Where do you think he needs greater support?
Speaker 4 (06:10):
I think it's probably a bit of both pointy, to
be honest, But I think most of it's got to
do with his teammates. You know, it's it's in the moment.
It's on the field and having those directions and trying
to come up with solutions on the field. And you know,
coaches can't really do the part through walkie talkies and
(06:31):
ear pieces, So I think a lot of it's got
to come down to the players around him, you know,
helping them.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So yeah, did you feel I don't think accepted as
the right word. Did you feel relied upon by the
teams you played? And did they did you ever feel
as though they thought you might be you might be
a bit of radic for them all? Did you always
feel relied upon by your teammates?
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Ah? Yeah, I don't know. It's a tough fun time. Yeah,
I suppose maybe a little bit relied on. Yeah, I see,
I don't know really.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
So Damien McKenzie, Then do you think he has a
future as a test fullback?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
I think he does, yes, And I'd actually like to
see him has some time at fall back. Whether it
happens or not, I'm not sure, but I definitely think
he is definitely potential for him to be a good,
good test for BIT.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Just on the Australians, obviously you played a lot against
them during your career, but I mean of your thirty
five tests, only seven losses and four of those losses
were to Australia. How stern a challenge did they present
to you during the late nineties and into the two
thousands when you played them?
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Oh mate, they were tough. You know. You look at
the players they head deck in those late nineties and
especially Theys mid to late nineties. You know, the experience
in the in the players that they had. You know,
we were real close test matches back in those days,
you know, so they were forced to be reckon with
so you know, really good, really good games and back there,
(08:06):
and you know, it's just it's just a shame that
you know, it's obviously not like dead anymore.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, and let us low Kapa. I think you think
you were in the team that won it back in
two thousand and three from memory, a proud moment to
get your hands on the on the big thing.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Always, you know, and it's one of the trophies that
I was fortunate enough to win. But ye was obviously
a proud moment back then in two thousand and Streader
obviously get my hands on it for sure.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
You played a bit with Razor and the or Blacks.
Did he appeal to you as a guy who might
go into coaching when you were playing with him?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Uh? Nah, not really. I thought it'd be a full
time soon for to be honest.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Brilliant all right, Just before you go, speaking of proud moments,
Sun Peyton signing with the Blues for next season. He's
a fallback. Does he play the way you used to?
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I don't think so. He's a pretty bit more reserved
than I than I was, which is probably a good thing.
But you know, I just he's him, and you know,
I'll let him grow up the way he's wanted to
play the game and whatnot. But you know, obviously, you know,
but up and Joe, I'm very proud of him for
(09:26):
obviously signing with the Blues. So you we're just looking
forward to seeing where his career can go.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, rightly. So always great cheating rugby with you, Carlos,
all the best, mate, Thanks for taking my call.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Now all good pie ecues, mate, thanks, thank you mate.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
That's Carlos Spencer joining us with some really interesting thoughts
there on Damien McKenzie.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen live
to news talks it'd be weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine
from newstalk edb.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Head an r rup oh to feed the scrump, Nanara
gets it in, Savia gets it out, cats it over
the touchline. The All Blacks hang on to win the match.
The All Blacks hang on to the Bledisloe three tries
in the opening sixteen minutes and then got the fright
of their life. The All Blacks thirty one Australia twenty eighth.
(00:36):
The Bledisloe stays in New Zealand for another year. But
that was less than emphetic in.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
The end, There certainly was. That was a week ago
in Sydney. Tonight the two teams renew hostilities at Sky
Stadium in Wellington, where the show is coming to you
from today plenty of chat when the team was announced
on Thursday. Around the first five position after starting the
first seven Test matches of the year, Damien McKenzie will
come off the bench tonight, with Bowden Barrett starting in
(01:02):
the ten jersey. It'll be his first start at first
for the All Blacks since he played there against Scotland
on the end of year tour in twenty twenty two.
One of our great running first fives was Carlos Spencer
thirty five Test matches between nineteen ninety five and two
thousand and four, scoring nearly three hundred points. He was
particularly prominent in the unbeaten Test year of nineteen ninety seven,
(01:26):
during which he made his Test debut, and of course
in two thousand and three, when he played pretty much
every Test match, including both Bledislow Cup matches when New
Zealand won the Cup back after not having had it
for five years. Carlos Spencer is with us carloson to
start in general terms, what have you made of Damien
McKenzie's performances at first five for the All Blacks this year?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
You go twenty Yeah, Look, I almost said a little
bit sorry from to be honest, but you know, it's
been a tough little road for him, you know, obviously
on the back of a team that probably hasn't really
performed to the temple, and unfortunately it's usually the number
ten that takes most of the stick. You know, I've
(02:14):
sort of always considered Damien as a better full bet
than a number ten, but yeah, just really, I suppose
hasn't been able to give the direction that besides needs.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Do you think he is, though a capable test match first.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Five perfonally though, I don't think he is. I think
he's great at super super level, but when it comes
to test matches, Yeah, I just don't think he's he's
got what it takes to be a really good suited
number ten. Unfortunately. Hey, look, well I like Damien McKenzie.
I think he's a great player. But yeah, I just
(02:54):
I just find him he's better suited at fall bet
than ten. To be honest, what.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Is it about his play that that has been a
suited to the fifteen jersey than perhaps the ten jersey.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Oh, I think he's just got a bit more timers.
You know, he's got more time to make decisions, he's
a bit more space he because the line well, you know,
and I think he just can you know, he can
see more from at the beck and it doesn't stop
him from you know, jumping into Fiers receiver occasionally pull back.
(03:27):
But yeah, I think those are the biggest points. But
you know, I think he just left that direction. It
tests evel where it's really important.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Do you think the fact that he's so adventurous or
more adventurous perhaps than than a more traditional first five
means that he gets a bit more flat when things
go wrong, because people just think he's a bit of ratic.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yeah, I think it is the case. And you know,
there's one person that knows there to understand that, it's
probably me, because I was probably one of those players myself,
you know, you know, so I do feel for Damien.
You know, it's a tough decision, especially at test mitch level,
and you know, and like I said earlier, you're probably
playing in the team that really ain't you know, dominating
(04:13):
like they used to. You know, I think that they're struggling,
but up front and when the team struggles up front
of it, but you know, it's it's you know, it's
a little bit harder for a number ten to to
sort of fulfill of his role in his draw.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I suppose did any of your coaches, Carlos at provincial
super or particularly at all backs level, did they ever
try to tone down your attacking instance get you a
reigned in a bit.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yes and no. You know, obviously we had a game
plan to follow and we spoke about that. And you know,
if I did three off the train tracks too much,
then you know, I was obviously spoken to. But I
think the good thing about the most of the coaches
I had, they sort of understood the sort of player
(04:59):
that I was, which was good, you know. And I
suppose for me it was just about understanding myself what
was right for the team. I suppose in that moment.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
How long did that take to get you know, to
get it right most of the time for you? Or
did you feel as though you made your decisions pretty
right from the start.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
That definitely took a while. You know, it was never
right from the start, you know, and there was always
a progress thing. I think, especially number ten, you know,
do you get it right every time? No, you don't,
and that's why, yeah, sort of right and the people
around you as well. And I think that's the same
thing for Damien, you know, I think when you look
(05:40):
at the guys around him, are they giving them the
help in the direction that he needs. I don't think
they are. You know. I was lucky coming through at
my time. You know, I had some good players around me,
good experience around me that you know, we're able to
help me, especially when times were tough.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
So are you talking about his teammates sort of in
and around him in the back line, you're talking about
the coaching staff, Where do you think he needs greater support?
Speaker 4 (06:10):
I think it's probably a bit of both pointy, to
be honest, But I think most of it's got to
do with his teammates. You know, it's it's in the moment.
It's on the field and having those directions and trying
to come up with solutions on the field. And you know,
coaches can't really do the part through walkie talkies and
(06:31):
ear pieces, So I think a lot of it's got
to come down to the players around him, you know,
helping them.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So yeah, did you feel I don't think accepted as
the right word. Did you feel relied upon by the
teams you played? And did they did you ever feel
as though they thought you might be you might be
a bit of radic for them all? Did you always
feel relied upon by your teammates?
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Ah? Yeah, I don't know. It's a tough fun time. Yeah,
I suppose maybe a little bit relied on. Yeah, I see,
I don't know really.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
So Damien McKenzie, Then do you think he has a
future as a test fullback?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
I think he does, yes, And I'd actually like to
see him has some time at fall back. Whether it
happens or not, I'm not sure, but I definitely think
he is definitely potential for him to be a good,
good test for BIT.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Just on the Australians, obviously you played a lot against
them during your career, but I mean of your thirty
five tests, only seven losses and four of those losses
were to Australia. How stern a challenge did they present
to you during the late nineties and into the two
thousands when you played them?
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Oh mate, they were tough. You know. You look at
the players they head deck in those late nineties and
especially Theys mid to late nineties. You know, the experience
in the in the players that they had. You know,
we were real close test matches back in those days,
you know, so they were forced to be reckon with
so you know, really good, really good games and back there,
(08:06):
and you know, it's just it's just a shame that
you know, it's obviously not like dead anymore.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, and let us low Kapa. I think you think
you were in the team that won it back in
two thousand and three from memory, a proud moment to
get your hands on the on the big thing.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Always, you know, and it's one of the trophies that
I was fortunate enough to win. But ye was obviously
a proud moment back then in two thousand and Streader
obviously get my hands on it for sure.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
You played a bit with Razor and the or Blacks.
Did he appeal to you as a guy who might
go into coaching when you were playing with him?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Uh? Nah, not really. I thought it'd be a full
time soon for to be honest.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Brilliant all right, Just before you go, speaking of proud moments,
Sun Peyton signing with the Blues for next season. He's
a fallback. Does he play the way you used to?
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I don't think so. He's a pretty bit more reserved
than I than I was, which is probably a good thing.
But you know, I just he's him, and you know,
I'll let him grow up the way he's wanted to
play the game and whatnot. But you know, obviously, you know,
but up and Joe, I'm very proud of him for
(09:26):
obviously signing with the Blues. So you we're just looking
forward to seeing where his career can go.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, rightly. So always great cheating rugby with you, Carlos,
all the best, mate, Thanks for taking my call.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Now all good pie ecues, mate, thanks, thank you mate.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
That's Carlos Spencer joining us with some really interesting thoughts
there on Damien McKenzie.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen live
to news talks it'd be weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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