February 28, 2025 • 16 mins
The Chiefs have confirmed that head coach Clayton McMillan will join Irish club, Munster.
McMillian is being released from his contract one year early, leaving the Waikato team at the end of this current season.
His departure brings an end to his 5 seasons in charge at the Chiefs, during which he has lead them to the last two Super Rugby finals.
New Zealand Rugby's general manager of professional rugby Chris Landrum joins the show to discuss McMillan's move.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZEDB SO.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The Chiefs this week confirmed that head coach Clayton McMillan
will join Irish club Munster. He's being released from his
contract a year early and will depart after this current
season to take over at the Irish club. It'll bring
to an end five seasons in charge at the Chiefs,
during which Clayton McMillan has led them to the last
two Super Rugby finals. He's also coached the New Zealand
(00:35):
Under twenties, the Maldi All Blacks, New Zealand Barbarians and
the All Blacks fifteen. He has signed with Munster until
the end of twenty twenty eight and will link up
with his new club in July to discuss this. Let's
bring in New Zealand Rugby's general manager of Professional Rugby
Chris Lendrum. Chris, thanks for chatting to us. First of all,
how did this conversation with Clayton play out? As he
(00:58):
sought a release from the final year of his contract
with you.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Sure a poney, Nice to be with you again. Yeah,
it was big news earlier in the way it wasn't it.
Clayton in New Zealand Rugby together with the Chiefs, have
always had a really strong relationship. We wrote Clayton incredibly highly,
not just as a coach but as a person. True
(01:26):
to form, Clayton has been really open and honest with
us for some time now about the fact that he
saw his next coaching position being offshore for a variety
of reasons, and he let us know immediately really when
(01:46):
this approach came from Munster to him. We've been discussing
that for a few weeks and those discussions led to
the announcement yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
How do you balance the two things, losing our top
coaches but also the desire to allow them to gain
international experience and develop themselves as coaches.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Great question, and this is a really good example of it.
It's very individualized that there's no one pathway in coaching.
It's a really hard career. Coaches tend to move around
a lot that can be hard on family infano. In
(02:33):
this case, we of course would have loved to have
had Clayton and the Chiefs are on records saying this
as well. We would have loved to have had them
collectively in New Zealand in twenty twenty six, but we
knew that would be as last year. In this case,
I would rate Monster as one of the top half
(02:53):
dozen also club coaching opportunities in the world. It's a
province with a proud rugby history, great links New Zealand
that feature prominently. Traditionally in European competitions play a lot
of knockout rugby, that sort of thing, and in this
(03:20):
case we felt collectively that the Chiefs have good succession
options available to them who could be ready to coach
earlier than seven. So all of those things go in
the mix. And I think you can see there in
my comments around the club Munster, the province Munster, and
(03:43):
the comments about the club the Chiefs, that there's quite
a lot that's individual to this case of Clayton's.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Indeed, I want to talk a bit more about the
succession planning side of this in a moment. But do
you think ambitious coaches in New Zealand feel that they
have to work overseas to enhance their prospects for a
role with the or Blacks.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I hope not. As I said, there's no one pathway
and if you look at the last two appointments as
All Black's head coach, and Ian Foster and Scott Robertson
neither of them had direct international coaching experience I guess,
(04:28):
or coaching experience where they had been based off shore.
They all had a range of experiences, and Ian of
course had coached many have been involved in coaching many
many international test matches before he ascended to the All
Black's head coach position. Scott played a lot overseas coach
(04:50):
Barbarians rugby. Is a student of the game and so
I hope not but yet. There are also plenty of
examples where people have gone overseas and returned to coach
(05:10):
in New Zealand and up to the All Black level.
And the obvious example that people will go to, which
is a very successful period in All Black history, was
the period of Graham Henry and Steve Hanson and Wayne Smith,
who all had international coaching experience before they came back.
(05:30):
I think the key thing for people to understand is,
in the right circumstances, coaching overseas is never going to
be a negative. You will get experiences of playing and
coaching against different oppositions that play different style of game,
(05:56):
different conditions, different levels of physicality and that can only
enhance you as a coach. So it's one pathway, but
it's definitely not the only pathway. In Clayton's case, sitting
here looking at the end of twenty twenty five, he
(06:20):
will absolutely aspire to one day coach the All Blacks.
That pathway is closed at the moment. There's only one
All Blacks team and one All Blacks head coach role.
So you know, I think people sitting back and understanding
all of that landscape will really understand the decision that
he's arrived at, and we certainly understood it as well.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
How do you show aspiring coaches in New Zealand the
pathway to the All Blacks because, as you say, there's
only one job that pathways closed at the moment until
at least the back end of twenty twenty seven, and
who knows beyond that. How do you show our top
coaches an aspirational pathway to the job. Let's be honest, Chris,
that they all want.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Well, there are other Team in Black opportunities for our coaches,
and you look at Clayton and is a good example. Again,
he has coached mariol Blacks, He's coached at under twenties level.
He has coached New Zealand Barbarians and most recently he's
been involved in coaching and has been head coach of
(07:30):
the All Blacks fifteen. So there's a whole lot of
pathway programs there and special purpose teams like Mario Blacks
that do enable coaches to get more experience and to
feel perhaps even closer to New Zealand rugby to understand
(07:50):
where they may sit. The reality is is that the
full time head coaching roles that exist outside of the
All Blacks exist a Super rugby level, and what we
tend to see is that coaches love coaching at Super
rugby level for a number of years, but you know,
(08:12):
it's unlikely to be a role that a coach will
sit in for ten or fifteen or twenty years, and
so that's where the international side does come in. But
we do a lot. We work really closely with these coaches.
Pine all the Super rugby head coaches are actually employees
(08:33):
of New Zealand Rugby. We're involved in all of their
development conversations. We see them regularly and talk to them
about what they're seeing, not just in the game and
around what we're doing and how we're playing, but also
how they see their own future. So again, you know
(08:57):
the pathway as a concept, it can be very individualized.
There's lots of specific factors that go into anyone individual
coaches pathway or perception of it, and we're just part
of that conversation, supporting them and their growth and their development.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Do you worry that if we use Clayton as an example,
he's traveling his pathway and as you say, he I'm
sure at one stage would like that pathway to include
coaching the All Blacks. Do you worry that he'll find
a fork in the road that will send him off
in a different direction and he'll end up coaching the
Wallabies or Scotland or someone like that.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
I don't worry about it. I think it's just a
reality for us. You and your listeners will know how
many New Zealanders have coached other international sides and I
see that as a great strength for New Zealand rugby.
(10:05):
Look at Jamie. You know Jamie had a fork in
his road. He did his time at the Highlanders, he
was highly successful in the final analysis there. He's then
been coaching Japan for eight seasons and look where he
is now, and look at how the Highlanders played last week.
(10:29):
I was down in Dunedin and you know, all credit
to the players obviously, but to me, that team had
Jamie Joseph's stamp all over it. And that's fantastic because
he's going to come back and he will in his
coaching group down there in the club, will grow All
(10:49):
Blacks for us and all of his experience that he's
picked up offshore will help him lead that program. So
part of is just the reality. We do only have
one all black's head coach role, and we have one
set of all Blacks assistant coaching roles, and we fortunately
(11:12):
enough produce surplus talent. That means that not everybody can
be satisfied immediately by moving into those roles, and they're
highly highly competitive. I think that's the standard we want
for the All Blacks. And yep, while some coaches applying
(11:33):
their trade and growing in New Zealand, others will be
plying their trade and growing offshore. And in the end,
I'm comfortable that the vast majority of those people are
motivated to want to coach the All Blacks as a priority,
and when the time is right for them, they will
put their hat in the ring.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Just on succession planning, Chris, I know that there's no
error apparent to Scott Robertson, it doesn't work that way.
But what about it at super level where you've got
five franchises and you know, and we've had this week
Clayton McMillan, move on, Have you got a spreadsheet or
a whiteboard or something that's you know, perhaps just in
your mind of the next potential candidates for each of
(12:17):
the super right by sides, for example.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Between us and in our five clubs, we do sometimes
the succession is more about than others. Sometimes we need
to go to recruitment processes, but absolutely you're always thinking
about that, and the pastway into those roles is also
(12:48):
or can be quite individualized. You know, there is a
growing distinction in coaching between what it takes to be
a head coach and what it takes to be a
great assistant coach. And it is not always the case
(13:09):
that assistant coaches who do a lot of the delivery
on and off the training field and our teams either
will make good head coaches or even want to be
head coaches. So sometimes from the outside, the obvious succession
(13:31):
people might think well, okay, we'll just promote the assistant
coach up to the head coach role. Sometimes that's not
the case, and so we're always thinking coaching is a
critical part of you know, what we hope will be
our competitive advantage in New Zealand Rugby. It's always been
(13:54):
a big part of who we are. You know, we
do populate other countries' programs with our coaches. And yeah,
absolutely basically is the one word an'swer at all of that,
I suppose indeed.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
And as far as the recruitment of a replacement for Clayton,
the process around that, as you say, these coaches are
employees of New Zealand Rugby, but clearly there's a vested
interest around the Chiefs franchise in this case. So do
you work together with the Chiefs. Is that how it
works to come up with Clayton's replacement?
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yes, that's absolutely how it works. We'll be very aligned
with the club. As I say, technically the head coach
of the Chiefs and zeal And Rugby employee, but you
absolutely have to make sure that the coach is set
up for success luckily, and that the club is aligned
(14:54):
and supportive of that candidate and can build a team
around that candidate, which which is their responsibility. So I've
got no doubt that we're very align with the Chiefs.
They're a really strong club, they're well led, they work
hard in the high performance space, both and player and
(15:17):
coach development, and when we get to that point later
in the year, it'll be a really good conversation with him.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Just to finish, what does your gut tell you? Do
you expect Clayton will coach in New Zealand Again?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I do expect your coach in New Zealand. Again, I
don't know at what level or in what role. That's
part of the fun of all of this and part
of his challenge. I expect him to do a really
good job at Munster. I think the fits there for
what I understand that Province needs at the moment, and
Clayton's skill sets is excellent and he's still young, He's
(15:57):
still got a big coaching career ahead of him if
he wants it, and he knows we would love to
see him back in New Zealand in what role is
in the lap of the gods as they say, Piney.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Indeed is thanks for wrapping so much context around this
for us. Chris really appreciate your time this afternoon.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Always a pleasure, mate. Thanks no, thank you, Chris.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Chris Lendrum there ahead of the professional game or New
Zealand Rugby's general manager of professional Rugby lots to unpack,
their lots to get stuck into. You've had the chance
to think about this new since it broke on Thursday morning.
You've heard from Chris Lendrum.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, Listen live
to News Talk sed B weekends from midday or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZEDB SO.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The Chiefs this week confirmed that head coach Clayton McMillan
will join Irish club Munster. He's being released from his
contract a year early and will depart after this current
season to take over at the Irish club. It'll bring
to an end five seasons in charge at the Chiefs,
during which Clayton McMillan has led them to the last
two Super Rugby finals. He's also coached the New Zealand
(00:35):
Under twenties, the Maldi All Blacks, New Zealand Barbarians and
the All Blacks fifteen. He has signed with Munster until
the end of twenty twenty eight and will link up
with his new club in July to discuss this. Let's
bring in New Zealand Rugby's general manager of Professional Rugby
Chris Lendrum. Chris, thanks for chatting to us. First of all,
how did this conversation with Clayton play out? As he
(00:58):
sought a release from the final year of his contract
with you.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Sure a poney, Nice to be with you again. Yeah,
it was big news earlier in the way it wasn't it.
Clayton in New Zealand Rugby together with the Chiefs, have
always had a really strong relationship. We wrote Clayton incredibly highly,
not just as a coach but as a person. True
(01:26):
to form, Clayton has been really open and honest with
us for some time now about the fact that he
saw his next coaching position being offshore for a variety
of reasons, and he let us know immediately really when
(01:46):
this approach came from Munster to him. We've been discussing
that for a few weeks and those discussions led to
the announcement yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
How do you balance the two things, losing our top
coaches but also the desire to allow them to gain
international experience and develop themselves as coaches.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Great question, and this is a really good example of it.
It's very individualized that there's no one pathway in coaching.
It's a really hard career. Coaches tend to move around
a lot that can be hard on family infano. In
(02:33):
this case, we of course would have loved to have
had Clayton and the Chiefs are on records saying this
as well. We would have loved to have had them
collectively in New Zealand in twenty twenty six, but we
knew that would be as last year. In this case,
I would rate Monster as one of the top half
(02:53):
dozen also club coaching opportunities in the world. It's a
province with a proud rugby history, great links New Zealand
that feature prominently. Traditionally in European competitions play a lot
of knockout rugby, that sort of thing, and in this
(03:20):
case we felt collectively that the Chiefs have good succession
options available to them who could be ready to coach
earlier than seven. So all of those things go in
the mix. And I think you can see there in
my comments around the club Munster, the province Munster, and
(03:43):
the comments about the club the Chiefs, that there's quite
a lot that's individual to this case of Clayton's.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Indeed, I want to talk a bit more about the
succession planning side of this in a moment. But do
you think ambitious coaches in New Zealand feel that they
have to work overseas to enhance their prospects for a
role with the or Blacks.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I hope not. As I said, there's no one pathway
and if you look at the last two appointments as
All Black's head coach, and Ian Foster and Scott Robertson
neither of them had direct international coaching experience I guess,
(04:28):
or coaching experience where they had been based off shore.
They all had a range of experiences, and Ian of
course had coached many have been involved in coaching many
many international test matches before he ascended to the All
Black's head coach position. Scott played a lot overseas coach
(04:50):
Barbarians rugby. Is a student of the game and so
I hope not but yet. There are also plenty of
examples where people have gone overseas and returned to coach
(05:10):
in New Zealand and up to the All Black level.
And the obvious example that people will go to, which
is a very successful period in All Black history, was
the period of Graham Henry and Steve Hanson and Wayne Smith,
who all had international coaching experience before they came back.
(05:30):
I think the key thing for people to understand is,
in the right circumstances, coaching overseas is never going to
be a negative. You will get experiences of playing and
coaching against different oppositions that play different style of game,
(05:56):
different conditions, different levels of physicality and that can only
enhance you as a coach. So it's one pathway, but
it's definitely not the only pathway. In Clayton's case, sitting
here looking at the end of twenty twenty five, he
(06:20):
will absolutely aspire to one day coach the All Blacks.
That pathway is closed at the moment. There's only one
All Blacks team and one All Blacks head coach role.
So you know, I think people sitting back and understanding
all of that landscape will really understand the decision that
he's arrived at, and we certainly understood it as well.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
How do you show aspiring coaches in New Zealand the
pathway to the All Blacks because, as you say, there's
only one job that pathways closed at the moment until
at least the back end of twenty twenty seven, and
who knows beyond that. How do you show our top
coaches an aspirational pathway to the job. Let's be honest, Chris,
that they all want.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Well, there are other Team in Black opportunities for our coaches,
and you look at Clayton and is a good example. Again,
he has coached mariol Blacks, He's coached at under twenties level.
He has coached New Zealand Barbarians and most recently he's
been involved in coaching and has been head coach of
(07:30):
the All Blacks fifteen. So there's a whole lot of
pathway programs there and special purpose teams like Mario Blacks
that do enable coaches to get more experience and to
feel perhaps even closer to New Zealand rugby to understand
(07:50):
where they may sit. The reality is is that the
full time head coaching roles that exist outside of the
All Blacks exist a Super rugby level, and what we
tend to see is that coaches love coaching at Super
rugby level for a number of years, but you know,
(08:12):
it's unlikely to be a role that a coach will
sit in for ten or fifteen or twenty years, and
so that's where the international side does come in. But
we do a lot. We work really closely with these coaches.
Pine all the Super rugby head coaches are actually employees
(08:33):
of New Zealand Rugby. We're involved in all of their
development conversations. We see them regularly and talk to them
about what they're seeing, not just in the game and
around what we're doing and how we're playing, but also
how they see their own future. So again, you know
(08:57):
the pathway as a concept, it can be very individualized.
There's lots of specific factors that go into anyone individual
coaches pathway or perception of it, and we're just part
of that conversation, supporting them and their growth and their development.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Do you worry that if we use Clayton as an example,
he's traveling his pathway and as you say, he I'm
sure at one stage would like that pathway to include
coaching the All Blacks. Do you worry that he'll find
a fork in the road that will send him off
in a different direction and he'll end up coaching the
Wallabies or Scotland or someone like that.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
I don't worry about it. I think it's just a
reality for us. You and your listeners will know how
many New Zealanders have coached other international sides and I
see that as a great strength for New Zealand rugby.
(10:05):
Look at Jamie. You know Jamie had a fork in
his road. He did his time at the Highlanders, he
was highly successful in the final analysis there. He's then
been coaching Japan for eight seasons and look where he
is now, and look at how the Highlanders played last week.
(10:29):
I was down in Dunedin and you know, all credit
to the players obviously, but to me, that team had
Jamie Joseph's stamp all over it. And that's fantastic because
he's going to come back and he will in his
coaching group down there in the club, will grow All
(10:49):
Blacks for us and all of his experience that he's
picked up offshore will help him lead that program. So
part of is just the reality. We do only have
one all black's head coach role, and we have one
set of all Blacks assistant coaching roles, and we fortunately
(11:12):
enough produce surplus talent. That means that not everybody can
be satisfied immediately by moving into those roles, and they're
highly highly competitive. I think that's the standard we want
for the All Blacks. And yep, while some coaches applying
(11:33):
their trade and growing in New Zealand, others will be
plying their trade and growing offshore. And in the end,
I'm comfortable that the vast majority of those people are
motivated to want to coach the All Blacks as a priority,
and when the time is right for them, they will
put their hat in the ring.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Just on succession planning, Chris, I know that there's no
error apparent to Scott Robertson, it doesn't work that way.
But what about it at super level where you've got
five franchises and you know, and we've had this week
Clayton McMillan, move on, Have you got a spreadsheet or
a whiteboard or something that's you know, perhaps just in
your mind of the next potential candidates for each of
(12:17):
the super right by sides, for example.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Between us and in our five clubs, we do sometimes
the succession is more about than others. Sometimes we need
to go to recruitment processes, but absolutely you're always thinking
about that, and the pastway into those roles is also
(12:48):
or can be quite individualized. You know, there is a
growing distinction in coaching between what it takes to be
a head coach and what it takes to be a
great assistant coach. And it is not always the case
(13:09):
that assistant coaches who do a lot of the delivery
on and off the training field and our teams either
will make good head coaches or even want to be
head coaches. So sometimes from the outside, the obvious succession
(13:31):
people might think well, okay, we'll just promote the assistant
coach up to the head coach role. Sometimes that's not
the case, and so we're always thinking coaching is a
critical part of you know, what we hope will be
our competitive advantage in New Zealand Rugby. It's always been
(13:54):
a big part of who we are. You know, we
do populate other countries' programs with our coaches. And yeah,
absolutely basically is the one word an'swer at all of that,
I suppose indeed.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
And as far as the recruitment of a replacement for Clayton,
the process around that, as you say, these coaches are
employees of New Zealand Rugby, but clearly there's a vested
interest around the Chiefs franchise in this case. So do
you work together with the Chiefs. Is that how it
works to come up with Clayton's replacement?
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yes, that's absolutely how it works. We'll be very aligned
with the club. As I say, technically the head coach
of the Chiefs and zeal And Rugby employee, but you
absolutely have to make sure that the coach is set
up for success luckily, and that the club is aligned
(14:54):
and supportive of that candidate and can build a team
around that candidate, which which is their responsibility. So I've
got no doubt that we're very align with the Chiefs.
They're a really strong club, they're well led, they work
hard in the high performance space, both and player and
(15:17):
coach development, and when we get to that point later
in the year, it'll be a really good conversation with him.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Just to finish, what does your gut tell you? Do
you expect Clayton will coach in New Zealand Again?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I do expect your coach in New Zealand. Again, I
don't know at what level or in what role. That's
part of the fun of all of this and part
of his challenge. I expect him to do a really
good job at Munster. I think the fits there for
what I understand that Province needs at the moment, and
Clayton's skill sets is excellent and he's still young, He's
(15:57):
still got a big coaching career ahead of him if
he wants it, and he knows we would love to
see him back in New Zealand in what role is
in the lap of the gods as they say, Piney.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Indeed is thanks for wrapping so much context around this
for us. Chris really appreciate your time this afternoon.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Always a pleasure, mate. Thanks no, thank you, Chris.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Chris Lendrum there ahead of the professional game or New
Zealand Rugby's general manager of professional Rugby lots to unpack,
their lots to get stuck into. You've had the chance
to think about this new since it broke on Thursday morning.
You've heard from Chris Lendrum.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, Listen live
to News Talk sed B weekends from midday or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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