July 5, 2024 • 12 mins
The All Blacks are facing off against England tonight in the first test of 2024 .
It’s Razor’s first test at the helm, and fans are buzzing to see how his team fares.
The English have named a strong team in their bid to spoil first test.
Piney caught up with English rugby writer Daniel Schofield to discuss how the team’s looking to get the better of the Men in Black.
He told him that England is coming out of the Six Nations with quite a bit of momentum, and they’ve got settled combinations and a quiet confidence.
“And obviously arriving at a time when the All Blacks are in transition with a new coach, new captain, new halfbacks, there’s a real sense that this is probably England's best chance since ‘03.”
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The fifteen man code is front and center of our
consciousness right now. Let's get an English viewpoint on this
evening's Test match. Daniel Schofield rights for the Telegraph and
as in New Zealand to cover this series. It joins
us now on Weekend Sport. Daniel, thanks for taking the time.
How optimistic are you of England winning one or even
(00:35):
both of these Test matches?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
More optimistic than I think any England team has been
coming here probably since two thousand and three, and that
two thousand and three lots some of them actually rate
winning in Wellington as highly as they did.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Winning the World Cup that year in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I believe it was in twenty fourteen England already knew
they were beaten coming on the plane. That there are
various sorts of factors back in England, that lack of
preparation time, certain players joining late. But I guess moreover,
the All Blacks were seen as pretty invincible, particularly in
(01:19):
that twenty fourteen era, and I just think it's such
a different scenario this time around. England are coming out
with quite a bit of momentum from the way they
finished the Six Nations the reasonably well in Japan. They've
got settled combinations and a quiet confidence and obviously arriving
(01:40):
at a time when the All Blacks are in transition
with a new coach, new captain, new halfbacks, that there's
a real sense that this is probably England's best chance
since so free and could be their best chance again
for another twenty thirty years. We don't know how the
sort of tours are going to work out in future
(02:02):
with the Nation's championship, but you won't find Steve Borthwick
or anyone making sort of loud proclamations about this.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
But there's a real quiet confidence that.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
England can can go and yeah win for the first
time in New Zealand in twenty one years.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
What did you make of the side named by Steve
Borthwick for this first Test?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Pretty much as advertised that they he's He's made a
real point almost since he came on board after Eddie Jones,
that the most successful sides are built on cohesion and continuity.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Now you can't always control that.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
With like injuries and suspensions, but he have a sort
of flag that there were going to be minimal changes
from Japan and.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Something like Marcus Smith he wanted to start.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Throughout the Six Nations, but again circumstance meant that he
injured his calf in a warm weather training camp in Drona, so.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
There weren't many surprises.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
They've obviously changed the props and I think he's wherey,
particularly after what happened in the World Cup semifinal against
South Africa where he sort of frontloaded his best scrummagers
that you don't necessarily start Cole and Mahler together, that
they works better in a combination. So no real surprises
(03:33):
and fairly there's obviously it will be a few faces
that maybe New Zealand listeners will be unaware of, like
fair Boso and Freeman on the wings, but they're relatively settled.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
These two tests come at the end of a very
very busy few months, don't the if we go back
to the World Cup and in England coming within one
point of beating South Africa and making the World Cup
final the Six Nations which was very fiercely fought, will
the timing of these two test matches apply it all
into New Zealand's favor. I guess another way of asking
that question is will England be a bit fatigued?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yeah, I mean you can definitely see it like that.
I would say that the England team has been fairly
refreshed since the World Cup. You've obviously lost a lot
of experienced people like Owen Farrell, Courtney Laws, manituur Lagi
and someone like many fail Boso wasn't involved at the
(04:35):
World Cup and in fact, yeah, he was playing sort
of club rugby a little more than sort of eighteen
months ago, so yeah, and someone like Maritose he technically
shouldn't really be on this tour.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
There's a limit with the Rugby.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Players Association that you shouldn't play more than thirty four
game equivalents, so the equivalent of twenty four hundred minutes.
So he's going to go over this limit on this tour.
But I think he's the only one, and the they've
obviously manufacturer.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Loophole in order for him to do that.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I don't think fatigue would be cited as an excuse
if they lose, but I'm sure I could be proved
wrong on that.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Do you get a sense that the All Blacks might
be vulnerable under a new coach, a new captain, you know,
a bunch of pretty experienced players having now departed. Do
you get a sense that the All Blacks may be
vulnerable tonight?
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I'm not not necessarily saying that England are red hot
favorites or anything like that, but there are at a
crossroads with a new coach and new captain. No one
really knows what to expect. I guess that another way
to put it is that when they came England came
here in twenty fourteen, the team was absolutely stacked with
(06:03):
world class players. Now you put someone like Ardis in
that category, but don't quite have the players like Carter Smith,
Non Neukano, Retallic etc. Who were probably struck a little
bit of fear into England back then. I don't think
this All Blacks team necessarily has the same fear factor
(06:27):
of that its predecessors.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Did you spend a bit of time and then around
the All Blacks at the start of the week where
you were in Wellington and and got a bit of
a sense of what they're about? What did you make
of the All Blacks? What sense did you get from
them with regard to the challenge the whole face from
England and how they're approaching that.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
So I should I should say it's my first time
in New Zealand. So I was in little surprised that
that seemed to be a sense of general nervousness. That
the perception I've had is that the kiwis always very
cockshaw and that's probably a compliment that, you know, they've
had such a successful team for so many years that
(07:11):
victories has taken for granted. I didn't get that sense
at all. I wrote a piece that effectively like the
All Blacks were killing England with kindness, sort of going
overboard with how nice they were and were really sort
of flashing their teeth, which I completely understand the position
(07:34):
they're in that they can't necessarily be sort of thumping
their chests like.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Razi Erasmus does for South Africa.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
But yeah, I was surprised a little bit the sense
of nervousness. And you know, a colleague was at the
squad announcement and said, like Scott Robson looked really, really
nervous in that situation. So obviously it would be a
frightening experience for anyone to sort of talk in front
(08:03):
of lots of cameras and feel that way of the
nation on his shoulders. But even yesterday he didn't look
all that comfortable in that environment.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, I read the piece actually, and yeah you picked
up on Scott Hanson, one of the assistant coaches, calling
England beautiful. The fact that compared to ten years ago,
you know, when the All Blacks didn't really know too
many of the England players, there's been a greater amount
of detail this time around. If England are to win
tonight or to win next weekend or both, what do
(08:35):
they have to do particularly well?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I think I'll probably list off of a load of
cliches here, but whether in the early storm, I think
England have sort of know that the All Blacks are
going to come out firing, and they know it's going
to be really loud in the the Sithebar Stadium tonight
and that the conditions are going to be tricky. If
(09:01):
they can weather that early storm, then I think it'll
be a tight game. And whether that sort of weight
of expectation and the nerves would start to play on
your Black shoulders. As much as England's game attacking game
has evolved over the course of six Nations, that the
(09:24):
fundamentals are always to set piece and particularly under Steve Borthwick,
line out and scrum which have improved. But obviously the
All Blacks have made great strides since the sort of
new coaching staff have comeing in that area as well. Yeah,
I think I don't think it's going to be a
(09:45):
trifest I think it's going to be more more excided
by the probably the goalkickers than necessarily the wingers out wide.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And just to finish Shill, we just zoom out a
bit from from from tonight's game and this tear series.
As I say, England third and the six Nations, but
they bete Ireland and only lost to France by just
the two points, you know, close, as I said before,
to a World Cup final at the back end of
last year. Where do you assist Daniel. We're England rugby
is right now.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
We're definitely not in the sort of elite category by
any means, but it's probably been You'd have to go
back to twenty nineteen and the World Cup semi final
which against New Zealand, which is still used as the
sort of high watermark for English rugby recent years, but
(10:40):
really there hasn't been a lot of optimism since.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Then after that World Cup.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Under Eddie sort of the wheels fell off slowly. They
were winning but badly in twenty twenty and then losing
a lot in twenty one and twenty to Steve Worfwick
came in with a limittedly very limited game plan that
was incredibly effective in getting England to World Cup semi
(11:12):
final within a point of the spring box and then
coming into this Six Nations it was again fairly limited
to begin with, but then between the Scotland and the
Island Games has been a huge transformation in the way
England have been attacking and the freedom and ambition they've shown,
(11:34):
which they yeah, you would have to go back five years.
So even though England certainly aren't sort of beating their
chest and pretending they're sort of world number ones, yeah
they're on. It feels like they've turned a corner. I mean,
it could all obviously come crashing down the next couple
of weeks, but there's a sense of optimism and if
(11:58):
you speak to most English sporting fans, the thing they
want more than anything else as a bit of hope.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Daniel, great to get your insight. Thank you so much,
Hope you're enjoying your stay here in New Zealand. Look
forward to catching up perhaps post match tonight. Thanks for
your time this afternoon.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Though, that'd be great.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Okay, thank you, no, thank you, Daniel, Daniel Scofield there,
read them in the Telegraph here as part of quite
a decent English rugby media. Actually I would say there
would be at least a dozen of them here. Had
the chance to meet and chat to a few of
them last night here and Duneda there and enjoying themselves
as traveling rugby junos tend to do, and looking forward
(12:38):
to tonight. Look he seemed fairly confident, didn't he. Daniel
Schofield of an England upset.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk sed B weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The fifteen man code is front and center of our
consciousness right now. Let's get an English viewpoint on this
evening's Test match. Daniel Schofield rights for the Telegraph and
as in New Zealand to cover this series. It joins
us now on Weekend Sport. Daniel, thanks for taking the time.
How optimistic are you of England winning one or even
(00:35):
both of these Test matches?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
More optimistic than I think any England team has been
coming here probably since two thousand and three, and that
two thousand and three lots some of them actually rate
winning in Wellington as highly as they did.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Winning the World Cup that year in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I believe it was in twenty fourteen England already knew
they were beaten coming on the plane. That there are
various sorts of factors back in England, that lack of
preparation time, certain players joining late. But I guess moreover,
the All Blacks were seen as pretty invincible, particularly in
(01:19):
that twenty fourteen era, and I just think it's such
a different scenario this time around. England are coming out
with quite a bit of momentum from the way they
finished the Six Nations the reasonably well in Japan. They've
got settled combinations and a quiet confidence and obviously arriving
(01:40):
at a time when the All Blacks are in transition
with a new coach, new captain, new halfbacks, that there's
a real sense that this is probably England's best chance
since so free and could be their best chance again
for another twenty thirty years. We don't know how the
sort of tours are going to work out in future
(02:02):
with the Nation's championship, but you won't find Steve Borthwick
or anyone making sort of loud proclamations about this.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
But there's a real quiet confidence that.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
England can can go and yeah win for the first
time in New Zealand in twenty one years.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
What did you make of the side named by Steve
Borthwick for this first Test?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Pretty much as advertised that they he's He's made a
real point almost since he came on board after Eddie Jones,
that the most successful sides are built on cohesion and continuity.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Now you can't always control that.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
With like injuries and suspensions, but he have a sort
of flag that there were going to be minimal changes
from Japan and.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Something like Marcus Smith he wanted to start.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Throughout the Six Nations, but again circumstance meant that he
injured his calf in a warm weather training camp in Drona, so.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
There weren't many surprises.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
They've obviously changed the props and I think he's wherey,
particularly after what happened in the World Cup semifinal against
South Africa where he sort of frontloaded his best scrummagers
that you don't necessarily start Cole and Mahler together, that
they works better in a combination. So no real surprises
(03:33):
and fairly there's obviously it will be a few faces
that maybe New Zealand listeners will be unaware of, like
fair Boso and Freeman on the wings, but they're relatively settled.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
These two tests come at the end of a very
very busy few months, don't the if we go back
to the World Cup and in England coming within one
point of beating South Africa and making the World Cup
final the Six Nations which was very fiercely fought, will
the timing of these two test matches apply it all
into New Zealand's favor. I guess another way of asking
that question is will England be a bit fatigued?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yeah, I mean you can definitely see it like that.
I would say that the England team has been fairly
refreshed since the World Cup. You've obviously lost a lot
of experienced people like Owen Farrell, Courtney Laws, manituur Lagi
and someone like many fail Boso wasn't involved at the
(04:35):
World Cup and in fact, yeah, he was playing sort
of club rugby a little more than sort of eighteen
months ago, so yeah, and someone like Maritose he technically
shouldn't really be on this tour.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
There's a limit with the Rugby.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Players Association that you shouldn't play more than thirty four
game equivalents, so the equivalent of twenty four hundred minutes.
So he's going to go over this limit on this tour.
But I think he's the only one, and the they've
obviously manufacturer.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Loophole in order for him to do that.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I don't think fatigue would be cited as an excuse
if they lose, but I'm sure I could be proved
wrong on that.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Do you get a sense that the All Blacks might
be vulnerable under a new coach, a new captain, you know,
a bunch of pretty experienced players having now departed. Do
you get a sense that the All Blacks may be
vulnerable tonight?
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I'm not not necessarily saying that England are red hot
favorites or anything like that, but there are at a
crossroads with a new coach and new captain. No one
really knows what to expect. I guess that another way
to put it is that when they came England came
here in twenty fourteen, the team was absolutely stacked with
(06:03):
world class players. Now you put someone like Ardis in
that category, but don't quite have the players like Carter Smith,
Non Neukano, Retallic etc. Who were probably struck a little
bit of fear into England back then. I don't think
this All Blacks team necessarily has the same fear factor
(06:27):
of that its predecessors.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Did you spend a bit of time and then around
the All Blacks at the start of the week where
you were in Wellington and and got a bit of
a sense of what they're about? What did you make
of the All Blacks? What sense did you get from
them with regard to the challenge the whole face from
England and how they're approaching that.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
So I should I should say it's my first time
in New Zealand. So I was in little surprised that
that seemed to be a sense of general nervousness. That
the perception I've had is that the kiwis always very
cockshaw and that's probably a compliment that, you know, they've
had such a successful team for so many years that
(07:11):
victories has taken for granted. I didn't get that sense
at all. I wrote a piece that effectively like the
All Blacks were killing England with kindness, sort of going
overboard with how nice they were and were really sort
of flashing their teeth, which I completely understand the position
(07:34):
they're in that they can't necessarily be sort of thumping
their chests like.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Razi Erasmus does for South Africa.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
But yeah, I was surprised a little bit the sense
of nervousness. And you know, a colleague was at the
squad announcement and said, like Scott Robson looked really, really
nervous in that situation. So obviously it would be a
frightening experience for anyone to sort of talk in front
(08:03):
of lots of cameras and feel that way of the
nation on his shoulders. But even yesterday he didn't look
all that comfortable in that environment.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, I read the piece actually, and yeah you picked
up on Scott Hanson, one of the assistant coaches, calling
England beautiful. The fact that compared to ten years ago,
you know, when the All Blacks didn't really know too
many of the England players, there's been a greater amount
of detail this time around. If England are to win
tonight or to win next weekend or both, what do
(08:35):
they have to do particularly well?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I think I'll probably list off of a load of
cliches here, but whether in the early storm, I think
England have sort of know that the All Blacks are
going to come out firing, and they know it's going
to be really loud in the the Sithebar Stadium tonight
and that the conditions are going to be tricky. If
(09:01):
they can weather that early storm, then I think it'll
be a tight game. And whether that sort of weight
of expectation and the nerves would start to play on
your Black shoulders. As much as England's game attacking game
has evolved over the course of six Nations, that the
(09:24):
fundamentals are always to set piece and particularly under Steve Borthwick,
line out and scrum which have improved. But obviously the
All Blacks have made great strides since the sort of
new coaching staff have comeing in that area as well. Yeah,
I think I don't think it's going to be a
(09:45):
trifest I think it's going to be more more excided
by the probably the goalkickers than necessarily the wingers out wide.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And just to finish Shill, we just zoom out a
bit from from from tonight's game and this tear series.
As I say, England third and the six Nations, but
they bete Ireland and only lost to France by just
the two points, you know, close, as I said before,
to a World Cup final at the back end of
last year. Where do you assist Daniel. We're England rugby
is right now.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
We're definitely not in the sort of elite category by
any means, but it's probably been You'd have to go
back to twenty nineteen and the World Cup semi final
which against New Zealand, which is still used as the
sort of high watermark for English rugby recent years, but
(10:40):
really there hasn't been a lot of optimism since.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Then after that World Cup.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Under Eddie sort of the wheels fell off slowly. They
were winning but badly in twenty twenty and then losing
a lot in twenty one and twenty to Steve Worfwick
came in with a limittedly very limited game plan that
was incredibly effective in getting England to World Cup semi
(11:12):
final within a point of the spring box and then
coming into this Six Nations it was again fairly limited
to begin with, but then between the Scotland and the
Island Games has been a huge transformation in the way
England have been attacking and the freedom and ambition they've shown,
(11:34):
which they yeah, you would have to go back five years.
So even though England certainly aren't sort of beating their
chest and pretending they're sort of world number ones, yeah
they're on. It feels like they've turned a corner. I mean,
it could all obviously come crashing down the next couple
of weeks, but there's a sense of optimism and if
(11:58):
you speak to most English sporting fans, the thing they
want more than anything else as a bit of hope.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Daniel, great to get your insight. Thank you so much,
Hope you're enjoying your stay here in New Zealand. Look
forward to catching up perhaps post match tonight. Thanks for
your time this afternoon.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Though, that'd be great.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Okay, thank you, no, thank you, Daniel, Daniel Scofield there,
read them in the Telegraph here as part of quite
a decent English rugby media. Actually I would say there
would be at least a dozen of them here. Had
the chance to meet and chat to a few of
them last night here and Duneda there and enjoying themselves
as traveling rugby junos tend to do, and looking forward
(12:38):
to tonight. Look he seemed fairly confident, didn't he. Daniel
Schofield of an England upset.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk sed B weekends from midday, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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