June 23, 2024 • 13 mins
As the nation braces for coach Scott Robertson to name his first All Blacks squad, coaching expert Wayne Goldsmith shares his advice for offering new leadership to an established team.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Every month or so, we get the benefit of the
wisdom of coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith, who has shaped the
thinking of coaches around the world from elite through to
grass roots. And with Scott Robertson set to name his
first all black squad tomorrow, I wanted to get Wayne's
views on the concept of a new coach taking on
an established team. How should they approach that, should they
bring their own ideas but also go with what's been
(00:34):
working under the previous coach and what is the best
balance to strike Wayne Goldsmith as well as Wayne, when
I asked you about this topic, you sent back three
possible approaches for us to examine one by one. So
let's go through those. The first is complete change, out
with the old and within you if you like, what
are the pros and cons of complete change?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
First of all, the tim pat is, particularly if you're
an inexperienced coach, is to say, I want to make
this my team, right here, right now.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
I want to impress the fans, I want to make
a big impact on this place. I want to make
a revolutionary change and anything that's currently there is wrong
and it has to go. Now. You could argue, all right, well,
there's a great line, which is start the way you
want to finish. Start the way you want to finish,
which says, if I'm all about a philosophy of or
(01:30):
if I'm about a philosophy of player unity, then you
don't build that over a year or two years. You say,
first session, first moment, we live our values, or we
live what we believe in. I can see the advantage
to that. However, I always say to caches, remember we
stand on the shoulders of giants and the people who've
(01:51):
built this team in this culture, which is sustained for
one hundred years. We've got at an eighty five to
ninety percent winning record or something like that. The things
that have built the team to be the icon and
the great team that it is. Not everything's out about that,
not anything's wrong. I think a lot of young coaches
come in and assume that anyone with gray hair doesn't
(02:12):
know what they're doing, and anything that is before the
year of Google is wrong. So I think the smart
coaches take a breath and say, yes, I want revolution,
but ultimately make it more like evolution, systematic, slow, methodical,
and permanent.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So that leads into the second possible approach you've seen,
which is partial change. You're bringing a few trusted staff
members and make some subtle but important changes. So might
that work better for Razor with an established and as
you've brought it out, historically successful team.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
This one gets really complicated, Pini, because so if you're
in an AFL team, super Ragby team, if you're in
an NRL team and you're come in and you say, man,
I want to change this. We could be remarkable. If
I can get this happening, and this happening, we could
do some really amazing things. So you go to the
CEO and say, look, I want to get rid of
(03:09):
these six players, these members of staff. I know that,
and the CEO is they're all under contract for another
two years. To make the changes you want to change,
and the changes you want to make right here and
right now, it's going to cost us five million dollars,
So we're not going to do it. So sometimes these
other forces other than just performance or or values or
(03:31):
team goals. Sometimes you're going to consider where are we
in terms of the contract cycle, and it's going to
take two or three years for me to build the
team that I'm really looking for. Very very typically coaches
will come in. No matter how good you are, you
can't do it by yourself. So very typically a coach
will come in and go, What I really need is
(03:52):
two or three trusted lieutenants who know my philosophies, who
know what I'm on about, who know what I'm trying
to achieve, and they can be an extension of my
philosophies as I build those longer term changes. Inevitably, I
think this second option, the systemic slow gradual change, is
(04:13):
forced on professional coaches, particularly owing to contractual obligations.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
All right, we'll get to the third approach in a moment.
But regardless of what you approach, a new coach takes.
How important does it weanne for that coach to get
the key players in the squad, the captain for example,
the experienced ones, the ones that drive the culture. How
important is it for the coach, the incoming new coach
to get key players on side.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah? Really important. That's the first discussion you would normally
have is to sit down with the team leader and
talk to them about their game, what they had to
achieve and then start to spread what we call that
idea of the vision. And you know, I love talking
about this by any because they call a vision a
vision because you can see it. And the great coaches
(05:00):
will walk into a program and go, I can see
this all black team, this rugby team, this AFL team,
this netball team, this freak team. I can see them
at the next World Championships. I can see them undefeated
for the last thirty games. I see us winning to
a power game or a speed game, or a skill game,
(05:21):
or all those things. The job then to the coach
is to look at that team leader or team leaders
and get them to see the same vision with the
same detail and clarity that they do, because you know,
ultimately we're a species of storytellers, and the coaches who've
got a clear vision and can tell the story of
(05:42):
their future so that the players go, you know, well,
I can see that too. That's what we could get
a coach. I get a coach. That's an incredibly important
thing is to sit down with those leaders and say,
I see a vision of what we could all achieve
together and sell that vision through the player groups so
they then carry that forward and help the rest of
(06:05):
the team to then buy into the same vision.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So there's complete change, there's partial change, and the third
option has not much change. But having a long term
plan to progressively turn the team into your team. Is
there any danger, though, Wayne, of a new coach coming
in and then not actually changing or doing a heck
of a lot.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
A lot of times coaches will come in and this
comes from the corporate world. In the corporate world, I'll say,
what are you in the first hundred days? Nothing? Just listen.
And I don't know that it is going to apply
in high performance sport because you know, it's like the
media scrutiny, particularly on your team and the All Blacks
is going to be unbelievable. Anything less than an incredibly
(06:48):
strong performance and a forty point win is not going
to satisfy the media. And to be questions about treading,
you know, you know exactly what is likely to come.
So it's very very tempting to do what we call
ROTV runs on the board. It's very tempting to throw
every you've got in doing something different and special or
(07:10):
unique to kick off. Some people go oho, these guys
really do have some changes, They do have a vision,
they do have a plan in mind. Standing back and
just watching and listening for the first hundred days might
work in an office environment, it doesn't really work in
high performance. The other thing with not making a lot
of change is that boards and executives are notoriously lacking impatience.
(07:36):
If they don't see some genuine change and some real
impact in the short period of time, they're not going
to give you a long term I mean, I was
talking to an NRL coach a few weeks ago and
he said to me, he said, you know what, if
you had five years where you were confident you've retain
your job, you could probably build a pretty good winning team.
(07:56):
But you don't get five years. You basically get one
season and about ten games before they've made them mind
up on how you're going to go and whether or
not you're right coach. So even though you've got an
underpinning model that you'd like to build for sustained success,
the reality of professional sport is you've got to win
(08:16):
in the short term to get that confidence in buy
in that you know what you're doing. And I think
the smart coaches again, they do things like that Pinty,
They go, I'll get a really good development team over here.
I have a good junior development program over here working
away behind the scenes, but I'm going to get some
runs on the board early to get some immediate buy
in from the people I met up or I won't
(08:37):
get the opportunity to do it long term.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
All right, And you talk about getting those runs on
the board or getting the buy in from, you know,
from the corporates, the administrators, those that are doing the
hiring and firing. But what about the fans as well?
How key is it to get the fans on side
quickly and what is the best way of doing that.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
The way to get fans on board is to win.
If they come in and on the first game, you know,
again talking specifically about the All Blacks, if there's been
multiple changes, they're playing a great game, if they're really
aggressive and attack, if their defense is strong, even if
the performance is not quite there, the fans go, you
(09:15):
know what, we're on the right track. If they see
something that's completely opposite to what they're going to expect,
then they just have a few question marks. I think
they'll buy him progressively. But nothing gets a fan to
buy in more than winning. And how many times have
we seen in the last two or three years, particularly
in the NRL, is probably the cauldron for that at
(09:38):
the moment, is that coaches are caught off and one
win or two wins away from complete board player and
fan buy in. I think the best example I can
think of was Newcastle last year when Newcastle were going
terribly and the coach was quite literally from all reports,
one loss away from no job. And then they turn
(10:00):
it around and Ponger starts playing like an absolute legend
and they win a whole bunch on the tripe, they
make it to the Semis and the coach's job is saving.
He was one win or one loss away from losing
all support. And it can be that sickle. But you
know what, I think fans will buy in if they
can see some signs. The other thing is you've got
(10:20):
to get media onside. You've got to have a great
media person in the club and a great media team
that are making sure that the messages about the changes
you're making are being conveyed correctly and being put out
there in the media and social media, so that you're
controlling the narrative and the discussion to a degree about
(10:42):
why you're making the changes, what impact it's likely to take.
If it's going to take a bit of time, tell
all the fans and share the fans the vision and
the story that you've got so that they're aware of
their expectations that are aligned with yours. Keep them updated informed,
particularly in the euro social media right.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
And it's a rare coach these days who has just
the one job, so across their career it's quite possible
they'll be going into a number of different environments as
a new coach. So does the same model, the three
approaches you've outlined, does the same one apply to every
situation a coach will find themselves or is it more
likely that they'll just you know, cut their cloth to suit.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
If you like. Yeah, a smart coach comes in and
before they've even taken on the job, they've looked to
see what sort of approach they need to take and
what genuinely happens, Pinty. When you go for a job interview,
and I've been on some panels, I'm on another one
later this morning. When you're in a job panel for
interviewing a head coach, the most common thing they ask
(11:44):
a head coach to do is to present their vision
for the sustainable success of the club, put up on
the board, do a presentation, tell the interview committee what
it is you're going to do with this group. The problem,
I find point is quite often the panels that are
interviewing the head coaches, they're not really sure what they're
(12:06):
looking for, so they just go win loss record. They
look at a coach who's got sixty percent ideally have
a long period of time, which is pretty good. It's
a winning record win loss records. They gave for that,
rather than say, what sort of coach do we need now? So,
do we need a coach who's going to stabilize, make
things flow along nicely, and make systematic change because basically
(12:30):
we've got it right, We just need we've got to
coach you retired or a coach that's moved on for
some other reason. Do we need a revolutionary coach? Do
we need an absolute well, we used to say an
old times a head kicker. Do we not literally kick
anyone said, let's be clear on that. But do we
need somebody who's going to come in change everything, be
(12:50):
really strong and clear on their values and make widespread change.
I think one of the issues is that quite often
clubs executives and boards don't really know what they're looking for.
They just gave a win loss, Whereas I think coaches
will often look at it with this player group, with
this budget, with this board, with these facilities, with this structure.
(13:13):
What am I going to be able to do? How
do I approach this problem? How do I attack it?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Well? I guess we're about to find out Scott Robertson's
approach to the All Blacks head coaching job. We'll get
an idea of which of the approaches or a blend
of all three that he employs. Wayne is always so
informative to get your expertise and your analysis. As always,
Thanks so much for joining us across New Zealand today.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Mate. I think your guys are so talented. I think
my grandmother could properly coach them. And I go pretty good.
This's got so much talent all over the park. But
it will be exciting and interesting to see what happens.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Good on you, Wayne, Thanks indeed, Wayne Goldsmith. Find out
more about his approach to coaching WG coaching dot com.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen live
to news talks edb weekends from midday or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio,
You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Every month or so, we get the benefit of the
wisdom of coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith, who has shaped the
thinking of coaches around the world from elite through to
grass roots. And with Scott Robertson set to name his
first all black squad tomorrow, I wanted to get Wayne's
views on the concept of a new coach taking on
an established team. How should they approach that, should they
bring their own ideas but also go with what's been
(00:34):
working under the previous coach and what is the best
balance to strike Wayne Goldsmith as well as Wayne, when
I asked you about this topic, you sent back three
possible approaches for us to examine one by one. So
let's go through those. The first is complete change, out
with the old and within you if you like, what
are the pros and cons of complete change?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
First of all, the tim pat is, particularly if you're
an inexperienced coach, is to say, I want to make
this my team, right here, right now.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
I want to impress the fans, I want to make
a big impact on this place. I want to make
a revolutionary change and anything that's currently there is wrong
and it has to go. Now. You could argue, all right, well,
there's a great line, which is start the way you
want to finish. Start the way you want to finish,
which says, if I'm all about a philosophy of or
(01:30):
if I'm about a philosophy of player unity, then you
don't build that over a year or two years. You say,
first session, first moment, we live our values, or we
live what we believe in. I can see the advantage
to that. However, I always say to caches, remember we
stand on the shoulders of giants and the people who've
(01:51):
built this team in this culture, which is sustained for
one hundred years. We've got at an eighty five to
ninety percent winning record or something like that. The things
that have built the team to be the icon and
the great team that it is. Not everything's out about that,
not anything's wrong. I think a lot of young coaches
come in and assume that anyone with gray hair doesn't
(02:12):
know what they're doing, and anything that is before the
year of Google is wrong. So I think the smart
coaches take a breath and say, yes, I want revolution,
but ultimately make it more like evolution, systematic, slow, methodical,
and permanent.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So that leads into the second possible approach you've seen,
which is partial change. You're bringing a few trusted staff
members and make some subtle but important changes. So might
that work better for Razor with an established and as
you've brought it out, historically successful team.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
This one gets really complicated, Pini, because so if you're
in an AFL team, super Ragby team, if you're in
an NRL team and you're come in and you say, man,
I want to change this. We could be remarkable. If
I can get this happening, and this happening, we could
do some really amazing things. So you go to the
CEO and say, look, I want to get rid of
(03:09):
these six players, these members of staff. I know that,
and the CEO is they're all under contract for another
two years. To make the changes you want to change,
and the changes you want to make right here and
right now, it's going to cost us five million dollars,
So we're not going to do it. So sometimes these
other forces other than just performance or or values or
(03:31):
team goals. Sometimes you're going to consider where are we
in terms of the contract cycle, and it's going to
take two or three years for me to build the
team that I'm really looking for. Very very typically coaches
will come in. No matter how good you are, you
can't do it by yourself. So very typically a coach
will come in and go, What I really need is
(03:52):
two or three trusted lieutenants who know my philosophies, who
know what I'm on about, who know what I'm trying
to achieve, and they can be an extension of my
philosophies as I build those longer term changes. Inevitably, I
think this second option, the systemic slow gradual change, is
(04:13):
forced on professional coaches, particularly owing to contractual obligations.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
All right, we'll get to the third approach in a moment.
But regardless of what you approach, a new coach takes.
How important does it weanne for that coach to get
the key players in the squad, the captain for example,
the experienced ones, the ones that drive the culture. How
important is it for the coach, the incoming new coach
to get key players on side.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah? Really important. That's the first discussion you would normally
have is to sit down with the team leader and
talk to them about their game, what they had to
achieve and then start to spread what we call that
idea of the vision. And you know, I love talking
about this by any because they call a vision a
vision because you can see it. And the great coaches
(05:00):
will walk into a program and go, I can see
this all black team, this rugby team, this AFL team,
this netball team, this freak team. I can see them
at the next World Championships. I can see them undefeated
for the last thirty games. I see us winning to
a power game or a speed game, or a skill game,
(05:21):
or all those things. The job then to the coach
is to look at that team leader or team leaders
and get them to see the same vision with the
same detail and clarity that they do, because you know,
ultimately we're a species of storytellers, and the coaches who've
got a clear vision and can tell the story of
(05:42):
their future so that the players go, you know, well,
I can see that too. That's what we could get
a coach. I get a coach. That's an incredibly important
thing is to sit down with those leaders and say,
I see a vision of what we could all achieve
together and sell that vision through the player groups so
they then carry that forward and help the rest of
(06:05):
the team to then buy into the same vision.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So there's complete change, there's partial change, and the third
option has not much change. But having a long term
plan to progressively turn the team into your team. Is
there any danger, though, Wayne, of a new coach coming
in and then not actually changing or doing a heck
of a lot.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
A lot of times coaches will come in and this
comes from the corporate world. In the corporate world, I'll say,
what are you in the first hundred days? Nothing? Just listen.
And I don't know that it is going to apply
in high performance sport because you know, it's like the
media scrutiny, particularly on your team and the All Blacks
is going to be unbelievable. Anything less than an incredibly
(06:48):
strong performance and a forty point win is not going
to satisfy the media. And to be questions about treading,
you know, you know exactly what is likely to come.
So it's very very tempting to do what we call
ROTV runs on the board. It's very tempting to throw
every you've got in doing something different and special or
(07:10):
unique to kick off. Some people go oho, these guys
really do have some changes, They do have a vision,
they do have a plan in mind. Standing back and
just watching and listening for the first hundred days might
work in an office environment, it doesn't really work in
high performance. The other thing with not making a lot
of change is that boards and executives are notoriously lacking impatience.
(07:36):
If they don't see some genuine change and some real
impact in the short period of time, they're not going
to give you a long term I mean, I was
talking to an NRL coach a few weeks ago and
he said to me, he said, you know what, if
you had five years where you were confident you've retain
your job, you could probably build a pretty good winning team.
(07:56):
But you don't get five years. You basically get one
season and about ten games before they've made them mind
up on how you're going to go and whether or
not you're right coach. So even though you've got an
underpinning model that you'd like to build for sustained success,
the reality of professional sport is you've got to win
(08:16):
in the short term to get that confidence in buy
in that you know what you're doing. And I think
the smart coaches again, they do things like that Pinty,
They go, I'll get a really good development team over here.
I have a good junior development program over here working
away behind the scenes, but I'm going to get some
runs on the board early to get some immediate buy
in from the people I met up or I won't
(08:37):
get the opportunity to do it long term.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
All right, And you talk about getting those runs on
the board or getting the buy in from, you know,
from the corporates, the administrators, those that are doing the
hiring and firing. But what about the fans as well?
How key is it to get the fans on side
quickly and what is the best way of doing that.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
The way to get fans on board is to win.
If they come in and on the first game, you know,
again talking specifically about the All Blacks, if there's been
multiple changes, they're playing a great game, if they're really
aggressive and attack, if their defense is strong, even if
the performance is not quite there, the fans go, you
(09:15):
know what, we're on the right track. If they see
something that's completely opposite to what they're going to expect,
then they just have a few question marks. I think
they'll buy him progressively. But nothing gets a fan to
buy in more than winning. And how many times have
we seen in the last two or three years, particularly
in the NRL, is probably the cauldron for that at
(09:38):
the moment, is that coaches are caught off and one
win or two wins away from complete board player and
fan buy in. I think the best example I can
think of was Newcastle last year when Newcastle were going
terribly and the coach was quite literally from all reports,
one loss away from no job. And then they turn
(10:00):
it around and Ponger starts playing like an absolute legend
and they win a whole bunch on the tripe, they
make it to the Semis and the coach's job is saving.
He was one win or one loss away from losing
all support. And it can be that sickle. But you
know what, I think fans will buy in if they
can see some signs. The other thing is you've got
(10:20):
to get media onside. You've got to have a great
media person in the club and a great media team
that are making sure that the messages about the changes
you're making are being conveyed correctly and being put out
there in the media and social media, so that you're
controlling the narrative and the discussion to a degree about
(10:42):
why you're making the changes, what impact it's likely to take.
If it's going to take a bit of time, tell
all the fans and share the fans the vision and
the story that you've got so that they're aware of
their expectations that are aligned with yours. Keep them updated informed,
particularly in the euro social media right.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
And it's a rare coach these days who has just
the one job, so across their career it's quite possible
they'll be going into a number of different environments as
a new coach. So does the same model, the three
approaches you've outlined, does the same one apply to every
situation a coach will find themselves or is it more
likely that they'll just you know, cut their cloth to suit.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
If you like. Yeah, a smart coach comes in and
before they've even taken on the job, they've looked to
see what sort of approach they need to take and
what genuinely happens, Pinty. When you go for a job interview,
and I've been on some panels, I'm on another one
later this morning. When you're in a job panel for
interviewing a head coach, the most common thing they ask
(11:44):
a head coach to do is to present their vision
for the sustainable success of the club, put up on
the board, do a presentation, tell the interview committee what
it is you're going to do with this group. The problem,
I find point is quite often the panels that are
interviewing the head coaches, they're not really sure what they're
(12:06):
looking for, so they just go win loss record. They
look at a coach who's got sixty percent ideally have
a long period of time, which is pretty good. It's
a winning record win loss records. They gave for that,
rather than say, what sort of coach do we need now? So,
do we need a coach who's going to stabilize, make
things flow along nicely, and make systematic change because basically
(12:30):
we've got it right, We just need we've got to
coach you retired or a coach that's moved on for
some other reason. Do we need a revolutionary coach? Do
we need an absolute well, we used to say an
old times a head kicker. Do we not literally kick
anyone said, let's be clear on that. But do we
need somebody who's going to come in change everything, be
(12:50):
really strong and clear on their values and make widespread change.
I think one of the issues is that quite often
clubs executives and boards don't really know what they're looking for.
They just gave a win loss, Whereas I think coaches
will often look at it with this player group, with
this budget, with this board, with these facilities, with this structure.
(13:13):
What am I going to be able to do? How
do I approach this problem? How do I attack it?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Well? I guess we're about to find out Scott Robertson's
approach to the All Blacks head coaching job. We'll get
an idea of which of the approaches or a blend
of all three that he employs. Wayne is always so
informative to get your expertise and your analysis. As always,
Thanks so much for joining us across New Zealand today.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Mate. I think your guys are so talented. I think
my grandmother could properly coach them. And I go pretty good.
This's got so much talent all over the park. But
it will be exciting and interesting to see what happens.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Good on you, Wayne, Thanks indeed, Wayne Goldsmith. Find out
more about his approach to coaching WG coaching dot com.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen live
to news talks edb weekends from midday or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio,
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