June 3, 2025 • 21 mins
Two new polls have different results - one with the current government in power, the other showing the opposition in power.
But is Labour actually ready for government - and does the party have decent relationships with potential coalition partners?
To answer those questions, Labour leader and Remutaka MP Chris Hipkins joined Nick Mills in the studio.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said, b.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Oh, my boss man must have known it's the Saints
are playing tonight, bringing that song out. Saints are playing
in Auckland tonight, so he must have known that to
play that old Saints classic. Joining us for its regular
monthly catch up as labor leader and Rumattucker in p
Chris Hopkins, good morning, I'm very good.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Thank you are you?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You look you look a tiny bit tired. I know
you're not allowed to say that to a woman. I
got absolutely torn a new one when I said it
to Ginny Andersone. She came and I said, you're looking
a bit tired, and everyone looked at me and said,
Sid must have said something naughty.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
You're on safe ground. I've got a bit of a cold,
so I I have been a little weary in the
last few days.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
There you go, don't give it to me, whatever you do.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I try not to said. We said it. We're sitting
a respectable distance part.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm not going to kiss you goodbye, so we're far.
We're fired. Let's start talking about the polls last night.
I know you're not a polls guy. I know it's
a polls person. But you know, one news poll last
night had you in opposition narrowly, and then the R
and Z Read Research poll this morning had you narrowly
a government. I mean, even the fact that you're in
(01:37):
the in the conversation must be reasonably pleasing for you.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, I mean, look, I think you can read too
much into into an individual poll. Poles do bounce around.
As all politicians will say, it's the trend that matters,
and the trend has seen Labors support consistently and steadily
increasing since the election, while the government support is consistently
eroding away since the election. Now you know, you see
variation within that trend. So the TV one pole would
(02:03):
have been at the other end of that that trend,
whereas they are en Z poll this morning was more
in line with that trend. So you know, overall, I'm
pretty comfortable that halfway through the parliamentary term, Labor's picked
up quite a lot of support. If we pick up
the same amount of support the next eighteen months as
we did in the last eighteen months, will be in
government at the end of next year.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I keep asking you this and you probably will keep
giving me the same answer. But I've got to ask
you again, is it because that Labor is popular or
is it because National and the Coalition are unpopular.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think it's a combination of both of those things.
So I think Labour's talking about the issues that matter
to New Zealanders. So we've said that jobs, health and
homes front of mind for us. Those are our top priorities.
That's what we're around the country talking about. Whereas I
think they see a government at the moment that's distracted,
it's fighting with itself, and it's doing things that New
Zealanders didn't expect when they voted for them. So you know,
(02:56):
cutting funding billions of dollars of funding for pay equity
for women was not something I think New Zealanders were
expecting to see from this government.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I think that. I mean also, I was surprised, very
surprised about the results of the pay equity. Only a
small majority don't like the changes.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Now.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
That surprised me.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Oh, it depends which poles you're looking at. So I
think the arian Z pole was more convincing in that
regard than the TV and Z one. But I think
overall people want to see women being paid fairly. I
think It very much depends what question you ask them. So,
you know, should women be paid the same as men
for work of the same value? And I think you'll
find overwhelmingly people would answer yes to that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I was surprised, extremely surprised that the Greens were up
as well. They released their alternative budget. Are you going
to release one? Are you going to come up with
some ideas or.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah, we'll do that next year. So we release what
we call our fiscal Plan, which is effectively an alternative budget,
and we'll do that closer to the election. I think
doing it now is a bit premature because a lot
can change in the next eighteen months. So if you
think about it from a government financial cycle, we've just
had this year's budget. There'll be what's called the half
Yearly Fiscal Update, the HAIFU, that comes out of the
(04:06):
en of this year, and so that'll give us a
bit more indication of what kind of state the government's
books will be in going into the election. But then
you'll get the budget for scill update, which is next year,
next year's budget, and that's really the point I think
at which other political parties can say, actually, this is
how we would do things differently. These are the different
choices that we would make. But at the moment it's
(04:27):
too premature because of course there's not going to be
an election between now and then.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Tax you're still working on that.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Yeah, we'll have a different tax policy. It'll be different
from the governments for sure. So we'll have that out
this year and then that will of course feed into
what our alternative budget next year will be.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Okay, we started our show this morning talking about New
Zealand First and wins Peters. He ruled out forming a
coalition with Labor if you are the leader. Now, I
asked them this morning if he would rule out doing
a coalition if you weren't the leader, and he got
narli with me, very narly with me. He didn't want
(05:02):
to talk about it at all. But if it came
down to it and you could form a government with
either to Party MARI or the Greens or New Zealand
First without you as a leadership, would you stand out?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Look, I don't think that it's still way too premature
to be heaven having those kind of who would work
with who conversations. Think about Winston Peters, you know, he
was deputy Prime Minister to Christopher Luxan up until the weekend.
He's not exactly going to turn around and say, oh,
but I'm keen to go and chat to the other
side when he's still in government with National. I think
those are the sorts of conversations that you have much
(05:36):
closer to an election.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I mean you must have some idea. I mean planning
must start now. I mean you know you're planning to
be in government. You've had that bet with me, so
you're definitely planning on being in government. I mean who
would you rather work with? Would you rather work with
to party, MARI or New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
First, well, what I've said is what I did last election,
and I'll do the same thing this election. Is as
we get closer to the election, we see what parties
are campaigning on, what their policies are, what the things
are that a matter to them. We'll set out before
the election saying okay, look we agree with that, we
don't agree with that. We have some values in common here,
we don't agree with them over there, and we'll set
that out for all of the parties. It's still too
(06:12):
early to do that now, because of course parties haven't
set out what they're campaigning on. At the next election.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yet, have you softened your stance about working with Winston
because you ruled them out?
Speaker 3 (06:21):
What I said is that we ruled him out last
time and it's unlikely to change next time around. But
I've also said consistently we'll make that judgment closer to
the election.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
How do you get on with them? Do you stop
and have a chat as you walk past in the street.
Do you get on with them? You're in a tight
confinement at behive sometimes.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Look, I've never had any personal animosity with Winston Peters,
and in fact, when we worked in government, I worked
very constructively with him. That doesn't mean I agree with
him on a lot of things, though I find some
of the stuff he's doing now, you know, I really
strongly disagree with it. I hate the culture Wars stuff.
I think, you know, frankly, politics should be better than that.
I think, you know, dividing New Zealand is in the
(06:59):
way that the current coalition are doing. That's not a
style of politics that I'm interested in.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Do you ever had a bear with them, sat and
had a beer?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, certainly plenty occasions. You know, we've often found ourselves
at social functions together. Is good companies got you know,
plenty of good yarns about fishing and horse racing and
various other things. Is you know, he can be good
fun to talk to. But I think at this point,
you know, it's the election is still a long way away,
and who parties will work with doesn't always relate to
(07:27):
who they get on well with on a social level.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So it doesn't even come into your mind until a
couple of months before the election. You don't even start
thinking about how you would get there and what you'd do.
I mean, surely you must be thinking in the back
of your mind when to party Maori becomes so unpopular
when it does some stuff and becomes really unpopular, you
sit there looking at it, going I need them to
be more popular, I need them to be more aligned
(07:50):
to me to form a government.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
That the reality is, I think under m MP, parties
have to work together, but the respective size of the
parties does matter. So one of the things I think
that's unique about this government is that you've got you know,
Nationals relatively weak peered to the other parties in the government,
and that's not been a common feature under m MP. Generally,
(08:12):
one of the parties has been more dominant in the government,
so either Labor or National whereas this government, I think,
you know, New Zealand First and Act are the ones
calling all the shots. So my goal heading into the
next election is I want to get Labor a much
higher share of the vote because I think if we
get a much higher year of the vote, then the
issues around who will work with and what you kind
of have to give away in coalition negotiations becomes less
(08:36):
of a concern.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I quickly I've got to go to a break, but
I quickly want to know ask you, because I watched
it last night. Did you see the Hillary Barry and
Jazinda Arderne interviewed last night?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I didn't think that. I did see an interview that
she just ended yesterday with r n Z, but I
haven't seen the one with Hillary Barry.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
You know she looks I mean, have you seen her physically?
She looks so much alive and well and healthy. Have
you did you? Did an Z one have a the
physically in view?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
No, I heard it on the radio, but no. Look,
Jasinda is I think is enjoying life now. She's having
a great time over and Harvard. We still chat from
time to time, and I think that's great for her,
and I'm looking forward to reading the book. I haven't
had yet. No, I haven't had. I haven't got my
hands on a copy yet, but I'll certainly look.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Forward to it. Hasn't given you a copy of her book.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I know it's it's an outrageous slice, but like I
was joking this morning, like all politicians, I'll go straight
to the index and see how many times I've been
mentioned in it. But but no, I mean, I'm sure
it'd be a good.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Could ask Ethan on the way out, because my producer's
read it and you haven't read it. I mean, that's
an outrage outrage.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Well fair, I don't have as much time to sit
there and read those kind of books as I, as
you know, as others do. But I'll look forward to
reading it.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Exactly exactly what I say to Ethan every morning, if
you've done your homework, if you be working, if you're
reading to zinder Ardun's book instead. But anyway, we have
labor leader in Rumatucker MP Chris Hopkins in the studio.
There was a really good article, interesting article and the
Herald over the weekend about the party Marry Thomas Coughlan
I think wrote it was it Thomas Coughlan wrote it
(10:06):
was trying to foster a better relationship with Labor. What
has the relationship been like between TO Party, maur and Labor.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Well, we've got a good constructive working relationship, you know.
I think if you look at the history of the
two parties, it's always been a bit a little bit
up and down. Bearing in mind that that you know,
TO Party Mardi was formed to some extent in protest
to a Labor government and then spent nine years working
with National in government. But you know, I think it's
probably the better. It's in better shape than it's been
(10:36):
in a long time. That doesn't mean we're the same party,
doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything, but you know,
we work reasonably constructively together in opposition.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Interesting that Party president John Tamardi gave a speech at
the Labour's Budget Night party. I mean, that's I find
that quite interesting.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Why, well, we invite so did the Greens. Of course,
we invited to join us in our carcus room on
Budget Night, the Greens and the Maori Party. And I
said a few words and then we invited a representative
of each to the other parties to say a few words,
which is just I think a common courtesy when you're
inviting people to your place for a few drinks, you know,
you invite them to say a few words. And so
(11:15):
I wouldn't read too much into that, but it shows that,
you know, well, the government was off celebrating cutting women's
pay and doing various other things. You know, we were there,
you know, working constructively together as an opposition to oppose
the changes they're making.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
And the Greens were there as well.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
The Greens were there too, Yeah, and all three of
you got on and here we do. I mean, that's
the thing, you know, Politics doesn't have to be personal.
You can disagree with people and still get on very
well with them. And there are going to be as
we head, particularly as we head towards the election, there
will be plenty of instances where the Greens, to Party
Mahdi and Labor will disagree with each other because we're
(11:49):
different political parties. But we can work well together. We
can work constructively together, we have done in the past.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
But my issue that I have as just as you know,
not as a talkback host, but this is a person,
is that they are so radically to the left, far
far left, both of them. And I mean, if you're
going to form a otherment, does that mean we have
Tamith for Paul as police Minister. I mean, I know
I've talked about it before, but I can't see how
it can work.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
If you look at the Mardi Party, I think they're
being quite consistent to the values on which they were founded.
So the Mardi Party have always been kind of pushing
the boat out when it comes to issues around sovereignty
and so on. They did when Taddy Anatutia set the
party up back in two thousand and five, but then
they spent nine years as ministers in John Key and
Bill English's government. So you know, I think they can
(12:37):
you know, if their pasttrack record is showing that they
can be they can push the boat out of it,
but they can also be constructive. And I think the
Green's much the same. You know, they were in government
with us for six years. We had a good constructive
working relationship with them. They were pragmatic during that time.
Let's just wait and see, you know, how things are
going to shake down as we head towards the next election.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
But to be fair and honest, I don't can never
remember the Greens being quite so radical as they are
now and the same with the Party. They are both
pushing the boat out as your description, way way further
than they have before. And I think public understand that,
don't they and you having to work with them that
could be a major handbrake.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Well, but I mean if you look at it on
the other side, you got ACT pushing the boat well
and truly out as well. I mean ACT basically wants
to slash all governments bending and you know that there's
quite a quite a radical agenda there to cut it
and sell it and add so on from ACT as well.
I think the real question for New Zealand is as
they head into the next election campaign, is who do
you want leading the NEXTMMP government Christopher Luxen, who's basically
(13:41):
indicated that he's going to give you know, ACT in
New Zealand first everything that they want, or do you
want a different style of leadership? I think that you know,
the Prime minister has a role, and if I was
Prime Minister the role would would also be to say
no sometimes and not let the smaller parties call all
the shots.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Do you think you're capable of making those big decisions
and holding you know, saying to them, hey, that's not
going to happen. Not interested in that? Would you would
you for go being government to do those deals?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well?
Speaker 3 (14:08):
No, I mean I think the thing is you have
to recognize the respective share of the vote that parties
get in the general election. My goal is to make
sure Labor has the biggest share possible because I think
there therefore our ability to say no, we're not going
to adopt any of the more radical positions of the
smaller parties is that much stronger.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
I want to bring you back into your in at
Tucker seat for a minute. I want to ask you
about an idea that I really push, and I push
it very hard. The Pororaris City Council is including non
binding referendum questions on its local voting papers asking if
Wellington's four city councils should be amalgamator. But Tory Farno
isn't keen to do the same in Wellington. What are
(14:51):
your thoughts on that or what do you feel should happen.
I know, once again I've asked you before, but times
change and things move on. What do you think right now?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Look, I'm personally in favor of us having a conversation
about what we do with Wellington's councils. I think the
system that we've got to not work. You know, there
are good people on a lot of our local councils,
but having the number of councils that we've got across
the region, the size of Wellington's isn't serving us particularly well. Look,
I'm as parochial as anyone else. I'm proudly from the Hut,
(15:22):
but I do think there's a way of still being
parochial but having a better arrangement for our local government.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
But why would would or do you think it's right
that they don't all actually just do a non binding referendum.
I mean it's just asking tick here if you think
it's a good idea, and then lest we could get
the numbers. I mean, why wouldn't that Wouldn't that be simplistic?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah, look, I've got no problems with them doing that.
I do think it's time for us to look at
reorganization of local government and Wellington. I think, you know,
I was a skeptic about the Auckland super City, but actually,
despite the fact that we might disagree with mayors of
Auckland from time to time. I think it has improved
the quality of governance in Auckland, and you know, I
(16:03):
think Wellington could benefit from something similar.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So if there was a non binding referendum on the
voting papers, how would you vote?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Oh, it depends what the question was. But if it was,
should we consider four of them?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I mean the question should be the four of the four.
We don't want to We don't want to spread it
out too far. We knew that that was a mistake
once we went over the hill. We knew that was
you know, that was you know, a mountain too high
and companies growing on their own and doing their own thing.
So it's just the basin.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I think we could find a structure that would result
in Wellington being sort of one city, but still with
some strong you know, parochialism within it if you like.
So you can still have strong representation from upper Heart,
from lower Heart, from Pottador, from Wellington City within a
more of a federal model. We've got two layers of
government now, you know, central, regional and local councils. And
(16:54):
I don't think that model serves the country particularly well.
So I think it is time for us to have
that debate.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Can I just quickly ask you on what level of
support are you putting towards Andrew Little in his mayoralty run?
You giving volunteers money? Its you know, smartness, because I
mean everything he's doing right now looks like a political campaign.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Oh look, Andrew's running a very slick campaign. He's got
some amazing people behind him, and he of course he's
got the full support of the Labor Party behind him
as well, no question about that. I think he'll win.
I think he'll be a great mayor for Wellington. So
you know I fully support him.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
If I was going to ask you, and I've got
any couple of minutes left, A couple of questions on
the budget. We haven't spoken since the budget came out.
I gave her a seven Nicola Willis a seven out
of ten for the budget. I thought it was a
reasonably good, strong budget with what she had to work with.
I mean, obviously you'll disagree. You're looking to be like
you're about to bidd.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I mean I wouldn't even give her a pass mark
for it, because you know so she said it was
a no BS budget. Turns out no BS stands for
no budget surplus. It's still not a budget surplus in sight,
and that's because of the decisions that Nicola Willis has
taken over the last eighteen months. So a budget surplus
was forecast before the election in twenty twenty seven, so
that would be year after next. Now that's pushed out indefinitely.
(18:15):
No budget surplus in sight.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
And she had said twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Only if you use a dodgy measure that excludes acc
if you use the measure that every other Minister of
Finance has had their performance measured on. Nikola Willis does
not have a budget surplus in sight at all anytime
in the future. And I think that that shows that
on the basics of doing what she said she was
going to do, which is balancing the books, she's utterly failed, right.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I mean the public haven't perceived it that way though,
have they. I mean the public have thought, you know, okay,
it wasn't the world's greatest budget, but we're in hard
times and she had little little to work with. She's
done a pretty.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Good job by the polling that was released last week
by Torbert Mills shows that this budget has been worse
received than any other government budget on record. I think
that shows that New Zealanders have given up hope with
this government. And you see that and the fact that
you know a three twenty planeload full of people is
leaving the country permanently every day. Young New Zealand is
(19:14):
just giving up. They've basically said, look, this government's offering
us no hope. We'll just leave and go and see
if we can find it somewhere else around the world.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
What do you think the government could be doing? Because
I agree with you, I would get a resignation a
week from in my business life from someone going overseas,
not going to work down the road, or staying in
New Zealand, going to Australia, going to Singapore, going to
London every week. How do we stop that?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
We've got we need a higher wage economy, So we
need to know I've said jobs, health and homes are
my priorities, or two of those are actually really contributing
to what people are leaving, which is jobs and homes.
If people can't get a good, well paid job here
and can't afford to buy a house here, that's when
they'll start to look overseas. So let's make sure they're
getting good, well paid jobs. This government have no plan
(20:01):
to do that, and let's make sure that people can
afford to buy a home. That one of the things
they did in the government and this year's government budget
was cut further support for first home buyers. If you're
a first home buyer looking at that going, the government's
making it even harder for me to buy a house.
There's no prospect of me getting a better paid job
here in New Zealand, and the government has no credible
(20:22):
plan to actually create one because talking about economic growth
doesn't grow the economy, as they've proved, they're just giving
up and they're going to go, well, we'll go to
a country that does.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I mean, stats will disagree with you on the first
home buyers. Stats will tell you that first home buyers
now are the majority of home buyers and that has
to be a good thing.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
We need to get more people into home ownership. I
think that's part of the key we dream, but the
government are making it harder. So one of the latest
changes they've done is that for those who have low equity,
they've basically more than doubled the cost of accessing those
low equity loans. I just think that's not a government
that's committed to making sure that Kiwis can get a
(21:02):
foot on the property.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Letder Criscipium is always a pleasure to thank you for
coming in for your monthly catch up. I know you
haven't been You're not that well and so it's appreciated
that you take your time out to come on to
the show and speak to the people of Wellington. Appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Good to be here, Nick, great to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said, b.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Oh, my boss man must have known it's the Saints
are playing tonight, bringing that song out. Saints are playing
in Auckland tonight, so he must have known that to
play that old Saints classic. Joining us for its regular
monthly catch up as labor leader and Rumattucker in p
Chris Hopkins, good morning, I'm very good.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Thank you are you?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You look you look a tiny bit tired. I know
you're not allowed to say that to a woman. I
got absolutely torn a new one when I said it
to Ginny Andersone. She came and I said, you're looking
a bit tired, and everyone looked at me and said,
Sid must have said something naughty.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
You're on safe ground. I've got a bit of a cold,
so I I have been a little weary in the
last few days.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
There you go, don't give it to me, whatever you do.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I try not to said. We said it. We're sitting
a respectable distance part.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm not going to kiss you goodbye, so we're far.
We're fired. Let's start talking about the polls last night.
I know you're not a polls guy. I know it's
a polls person. But you know, one news poll last
night had you in opposition narrowly, and then the R
and Z Read Research poll this morning had you narrowly
a government. I mean, even the fact that you're in
(01:37):
the in the conversation must be reasonably pleasing for you.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, I mean, look, I think you can read too
much into into an individual poll. Poles do bounce around.
As all politicians will say, it's the trend that matters,
and the trend has seen Labors support consistently and steadily
increasing since the election, while the government support is consistently
eroding away since the election. Now you know, you see
variation within that trend. So the TV one pole would
(02:03):
have been at the other end of that that trend,
whereas they are en Z poll this morning was more
in line with that trend. So you know, overall, I'm
pretty comfortable that halfway through the parliamentary term, Labor's picked
up quite a lot of support. If we pick up
the same amount of support the next eighteen months as
we did in the last eighteen months, will be in
government at the end of next year.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I keep asking you this and you probably will keep
giving me the same answer. But I've got to ask
you again, is it because that Labor is popular or
is it because National and the Coalition are unpopular.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think it's a combination of both of those things.
So I think Labour's talking about the issues that matter
to New Zealanders. So we've said that jobs, health and
homes front of mind for us. Those are our top priorities.
That's what we're around the country talking about. Whereas I
think they see a government at the moment that's distracted,
it's fighting with itself, and it's doing things that New
Zealanders didn't expect when they voted for them. So you know,
(02:56):
cutting funding billions of dollars of funding for pay equity
for women was not something I think New Zealanders were
expecting to see from this government.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I think that. I mean also, I was surprised, very
surprised about the results of the pay equity. Only a
small majority don't like the changes.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Now.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
That surprised me.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Oh, it depends which poles you're looking at. So I
think the arian Z pole was more convincing in that
regard than the TV and Z one. But I think
overall people want to see women being paid fairly. I
think It very much depends what question you ask them. So,
you know, should women be paid the same as men
for work of the same value? And I think you'll
find overwhelmingly people would answer yes to that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I was surprised, extremely surprised that the Greens were up
as well. They released their alternative budget. Are you going
to release one? Are you going to come up with
some ideas or.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah, we'll do that next year. So we release what
we call our fiscal Plan, which is effectively an alternative budget,
and we'll do that closer to the election. I think
doing it now is a bit premature because a lot
can change in the next eighteen months. So if you
think about it from a government financial cycle, we've just
had this year's budget. There'll be what's called the half
Yearly Fiscal Update, the HAIFU, that comes out of the
(04:06):
en of this year, and so that'll give us a
bit more indication of what kind of state the government's
books will be in going into the election. But then
you'll get the budget for scill update, which is next year,
next year's budget, and that's really the point I think
at which other political parties can say, actually, this is
how we would do things differently. These are the different
choices that we would make. But at the moment it's
(04:27):
too premature because of course there's not going to be
an election between now and then.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Tax you're still working on that.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Yeah, we'll have a different tax policy. It'll be different
from the governments for sure. So we'll have that out
this year and then that will of course feed into
what our alternative budget next year will be.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Okay, we started our show this morning talking about New
Zealand First and wins Peters. He ruled out forming a
coalition with Labor if you are the leader. Now, I
asked them this morning if he would rule out doing
a coalition if you weren't the leader, and he got
narli with me, very narly with me. He didn't want
(05:02):
to talk about it at all. But if it came
down to it and you could form a government with
either to Party MARI or the Greens or New Zealand
First without you as a leadership, would you stand out?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Look, I don't think that it's still way too premature
to be heaven having those kind of who would work
with who conversations. Think about Winston Peters, you know, he
was deputy Prime Minister to Christopher Luxan up until the weekend.
He's not exactly going to turn around and say, oh,
but I'm keen to go and chat to the other
side when he's still in government with National. I think
those are the sorts of conversations that you have much
(05:36):
closer to an election.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I mean you must have some idea. I mean planning
must start now. I mean you know you're planning to
be in government. You've had that bet with me, so
you're definitely planning on being in government. I mean who
would you rather work with? Would you rather work with
to party, MARI or New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
First, well, what I've said is what I did last election,
and I'll do the same thing this election. Is as
we get closer to the election, we see what parties
are campaigning on, what their policies are, what the things
are that a matter to them. We'll set out before
the election saying okay, look we agree with that, we
don't agree with that. We have some values in common here,
we don't agree with them over there, and we'll set
that out for all of the parties. It's still too
(06:12):
early to do that now, because of course parties haven't
set out what they're campaigning on. At the next election.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yet, have you softened your stance about working with Winston
because you ruled them out?
Speaker 3 (06:21):
What I said is that we ruled him out last
time and it's unlikely to change next time around. But
I've also said consistently we'll make that judgment closer to
the election.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
How do you get on with them? Do you stop
and have a chat as you walk past in the street.
Do you get on with them? You're in a tight
confinement at behive sometimes.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Look, I've never had any personal animosity with Winston Peters,
and in fact, when we worked in government, I worked
very constructively with him. That doesn't mean I agree with
him on a lot of things, though I find some
of the stuff he's doing now, you know, I really
strongly disagree with it. I hate the culture Wars stuff.
I think, you know, frankly, politics should be better than that.
I think, you know, dividing New Zealand is in the
(06:59):
way that the current coalition are doing. That's not a
style of politics that I'm interested in.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Do you ever had a bear with them, sat and
had a beer?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, certainly plenty occasions. You know, we've often found ourselves
at social functions together. Is good companies got you know,
plenty of good yarns about fishing and horse racing and
various other things. Is you know, he can be good
fun to talk to. But I think at this point,
you know, it's the election is still a long way away,
and who parties will work with doesn't always relate to
(07:27):
who they get on well with on a social level.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So it doesn't even come into your mind until a
couple of months before the election. You don't even start
thinking about how you would get there and what you'd do.
I mean, surely you must be thinking in the back
of your mind when to party Maori becomes so unpopular
when it does some stuff and becomes really unpopular, you
sit there looking at it, going I need them to
be more popular, I need them to be more aligned
(07:50):
to me to form a government.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
That the reality is, I think under m MP, parties
have to work together, but the respective size of the
parties does matter. So one of the things I think
that's unique about this government is that you've got you know,
Nationals relatively weak peered to the other parties in the government,
and that's not been a common feature under m MP. Generally,
(08:12):
one of the parties has been more dominant in the government,
so either Labor or National whereas this government, I think,
you know, New Zealand First and Act are the ones
calling all the shots. So my goal heading into the
next election is I want to get Labor a much
higher share of the vote because I think if we
get a much higher year of the vote, then the
issues around who will work with and what you kind
of have to give away in coalition negotiations becomes less
(08:36):
of a concern.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I quickly I've got to go to a break, but
I quickly want to know ask you, because I watched
it last night. Did you see the Hillary Barry and
Jazinda Arderne interviewed last night?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I didn't think that. I did see an interview that
she just ended yesterday with r n Z, but I
haven't seen the one with Hillary Barry.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
You know she looks I mean, have you seen her physically?
She looks so much alive and well and healthy. Have
you did you? Did an Z one have a the
physically in view?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
No, I heard it on the radio, but no. Look,
Jasinda is I think is enjoying life now. She's having
a great time over and Harvard. We still chat from
time to time, and I think that's great for her,
and I'm looking forward to reading the book. I haven't
had yet. No, I haven't had. I haven't got my
hands on a copy yet, but I'll certainly look.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Forward to it. Hasn't given you a copy of her book.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I know it's it's an outrageous slice, but like I
was joking this morning, like all politicians, I'll go straight
to the index and see how many times I've been
mentioned in it. But but no, I mean, I'm sure
it'd be a good.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Could ask Ethan on the way out, because my producer's
read it and you haven't read it. I mean, that's
an outrage outrage.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Well fair, I don't have as much time to sit
there and read those kind of books as I, as
you know, as others do. But I'll look forward to
reading it.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Exactly exactly what I say to Ethan every morning, if
you've done your homework, if you be working, if you're
reading to zinder Ardun's book instead. But anyway, we have
labor leader in Rumatucker MP Chris Hopkins in the studio.
There was a really good article, interesting article and the
Herald over the weekend about the party Marry Thomas Coughlan
I think wrote it was it Thomas Coughlan wrote it
(10:06):
was trying to foster a better relationship with Labor. What
has the relationship been like between TO Party, maur and Labor.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Well, we've got a good constructive working relationship, you know.
I think if you look at the history of the
two parties, it's always been a bit a little bit
up and down. Bearing in mind that that you know,
TO Party Mardi was formed to some extent in protest
to a Labor government and then spent nine years working
with National in government. But you know, I think it's
probably the better. It's in better shape than it's been
(10:36):
in a long time. That doesn't mean we're the same party,
doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything, but you know,
we work reasonably constructively together in opposition.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Interesting that Party president John Tamardi gave a speech at
the Labour's Budget Night party. I mean, that's I find
that quite interesting.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Why, well, we invite so did the Greens. Of course,
we invited to join us in our carcus room on
Budget Night, the Greens and the Maori Party. And I
said a few words and then we invited a representative
of each to the other parties to say a few words,
which is just I think a common courtesy when you're
inviting people to your place for a few drinks, you know,
you invite them to say a few words. And so
(11:15):
I wouldn't read too much into that, but it shows that,
you know, well, the government was off celebrating cutting women's
pay and doing various other things. You know, we were there,
you know, working constructively together as an opposition to oppose
the changes they're making.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
And the Greens were there as well.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
The Greens were there too, Yeah, and all three of
you got on and here we do. I mean, that's
the thing, you know, Politics doesn't have to be personal.
You can disagree with people and still get on very
well with them. And there are going to be as
we head, particularly as we head towards the election, there
will be plenty of instances where the Greens, to Party
Mahdi and Labor will disagree with each other because we're
(11:49):
different political parties. But we can work well together. We
can work constructively together, we have done in the past.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
But my issue that I have as just as you know,
not as a talkback host, but this is a person,
is that they are so radically to the left, far
far left, both of them. And I mean, if you're
going to form a otherment, does that mean we have
Tamith for Paul as police Minister. I mean, I know
I've talked about it before, but I can't see how
it can work.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
If you look at the Mardi Party, I think they're
being quite consistent to the values on which they were founded.
So the Mardi Party have always been kind of pushing
the boat out when it comes to issues around sovereignty
and so on. They did when Taddy Anatutia set the
party up back in two thousand and five, but then
they spent nine years as ministers in John Key and
Bill English's government. So you know, I think they can
(12:37):
you know, if their pasttrack record is showing that they
can be they can push the boat out of it,
but they can also be constructive. And I think the
Green's much the same. You know, they were in government
with us for six years. We had a good constructive
working relationship with them. They were pragmatic during that time.
Let's just wait and see, you know, how things are
going to shake down as we head towards the next election.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
But to be fair and honest, I don't can never
remember the Greens being quite so radical as they are
now and the same with the Party. They are both
pushing the boat out as your description, way way further
than they have before. And I think public understand that,
don't they and you having to work with them that
could be a major handbrake.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Well, but I mean if you look at it on
the other side, you got ACT pushing the boat well
and truly out as well. I mean ACT basically wants
to slash all governments bending and you know that there's
quite a quite a radical agenda there to cut it
and sell it and add so on from ACT as well.
I think the real question for New Zealand is as
they head into the next election campaign, is who do
you want leading the NEXTMMP government Christopher Luxen, who's basically
(13:41):
indicated that he's going to give you know, ACT in
New Zealand first everything that they want, or do you
want a different style of leadership? I think that you know,
the Prime minister has a role, and if I was
Prime Minister the role would would also be to say
no sometimes and not let the smaller parties call all
the shots.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Do you think you're capable of making those big decisions
and holding you know, saying to them, hey, that's not
going to happen. Not interested in that? Would you would
you for go being government to do those deals?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well?
Speaker 3 (14:08):
No, I mean I think the thing is you have
to recognize the respective share of the vote that parties
get in the general election. My goal is to make
sure Labor has the biggest share possible because I think
there therefore our ability to say no, we're not going
to adopt any of the more radical positions of the
smaller parties is that much stronger.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
I want to bring you back into your in at
Tucker seat for a minute. I want to ask you
about an idea that I really push, and I push
it very hard. The Pororaris City Council is including non
binding referendum questions on its local voting papers asking if
Wellington's four city councils should be amalgamator. But Tory Farno
isn't keen to do the same in Wellington. What are
(14:51):
your thoughts on that or what do you feel should happen.
I know, once again I've asked you before, but times
change and things move on. What do you think right now?
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Look, I'm personally in favor of us having a conversation
about what we do with Wellington's councils. I think the
system that we've got to not work. You know, there
are good people on a lot of our local councils,
but having the number of councils that we've got across
the region, the size of Wellington's isn't serving us particularly well. Look,
I'm as parochial as anyone else. I'm proudly from the Hut,
(15:22):
but I do think there's a way of still being
parochial but having a better arrangement for our local government.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
But why would would or do you think it's right
that they don't all actually just do a non binding referendum.
I mean it's just asking tick here if you think
it's a good idea, and then lest we could get
the numbers. I mean, why wouldn't that Wouldn't that be simplistic?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah, look, I've got no problems with them doing that.
I do think it's time for us to look at
reorganization of local government and Wellington. I think, you know,
I was a skeptic about the Auckland super City, but actually,
despite the fact that we might disagree with mayors of
Auckland from time to time. I think it has improved
the quality of governance in Auckland, and you know, I
(16:03):
think Wellington could benefit from something similar.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So if there was a non binding referendum on the
voting papers, how would you vote?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Oh, it depends what the question was. But if it was,
should we consider four of them?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I mean the question should be the four of the four.
We don't want to We don't want to spread it
out too far. We knew that that was a mistake
once we went over the hill. We knew that was
you know, that was you know, a mountain too high
and companies growing on their own and doing their own thing.
So it's just the basin.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I think we could find a structure that would result
in Wellington being sort of one city, but still with
some strong you know, parochialism within it if you like.
So you can still have strong representation from upper Heart,
from lower Heart, from Pottador, from Wellington City within a
more of a federal model. We've got two layers of
government now, you know, central, regional and local councils. And
(16:54):
I don't think that model serves the country particularly well.
So I think it is time for us to have
that debate.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Can I just quickly ask you on what level of
support are you putting towards Andrew Little in his mayoralty run?
You giving volunteers money? Its you know, smartness, because I
mean everything he's doing right now looks like a political campaign.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Oh look, Andrew's running a very slick campaign. He's got
some amazing people behind him, and he of course he's
got the full support of the Labor Party behind him
as well, no question about that. I think he'll win.
I think he'll be a great mayor for Wellington. So
you know I fully support him.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
If I was going to ask you, and I've got
any couple of minutes left, A couple of questions on
the budget. We haven't spoken since the budget came out.
I gave her a seven Nicola Willis a seven out
of ten for the budget. I thought it was a
reasonably good, strong budget with what she had to work with.
I mean, obviously you'll disagree. You're looking to be like
you're about to bidd.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I mean I wouldn't even give her a pass mark
for it, because you know so she said it was
a no BS budget. Turns out no BS stands for
no budget surplus. It's still not a budget surplus in sight,
and that's because of the decisions that Nicola Willis has
taken over the last eighteen months. So a budget surplus
was forecast before the election in twenty twenty seven, so
that would be year after next. Now that's pushed out indefinitely.
(18:15):
No budget surplus in sight.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
And she had said twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Only if you use a dodgy measure that excludes acc
if you use the measure that every other Minister of
Finance has had their performance measured on. Nikola Willis does
not have a budget surplus in sight at all anytime
in the future. And I think that that shows that
on the basics of doing what she said she was
going to do, which is balancing the books, she's utterly failed, right.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I mean the public haven't perceived it that way though,
have they. I mean the public have thought, you know, okay,
it wasn't the world's greatest budget, but we're in hard
times and she had little little to work with. She's
done a pretty.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Good job by the polling that was released last week
by Torbert Mills shows that this budget has been worse
received than any other government budget on record. I think
that shows that New Zealanders have given up hope with
this government. And you see that and the fact that
you know a three twenty planeload full of people is
leaving the country permanently every day. Young New Zealand is
(19:14):
just giving up. They've basically said, look, this government's offering
us no hope. We'll just leave and go and see
if we can find it somewhere else around the world.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
What do you think the government could be doing? Because
I agree with you, I would get a resignation a
week from in my business life from someone going overseas,
not going to work down the road, or staying in
New Zealand, going to Australia, going to Singapore, going to
London every week. How do we stop that?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
We've got we need a higher wage economy, So we
need to know I've said jobs, health and homes are
my priorities, or two of those are actually really contributing
to what people are leaving, which is jobs and homes.
If people can't get a good, well paid job here
and can't afford to buy a house here, that's when
they'll start to look overseas. So let's make sure they're
getting good, well paid jobs. This government have no plan
(20:01):
to do that, and let's make sure that people can
afford to buy a home. That one of the things
they did in the government and this year's government budget
was cut further support for first home buyers. If you're
a first home buyer looking at that going, the government's
making it even harder for me to buy a house.
There's no prospect of me getting a better paid job
here in New Zealand, and the government has no credible
(20:22):
plan to actually create one because talking about economic growth
doesn't grow the economy, as they've proved, they're just giving
up and they're going to go, well, we'll go to
a country that does.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I mean, stats will disagree with you on the first
home buyers. Stats will tell you that first home buyers
now are the majority of home buyers and that has
to be a good thing.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
We need to get more people into home ownership. I
think that's part of the key we dream, but the
government are making it harder. So one of the latest
changes they've done is that for those who have low equity,
they've basically more than doubled the cost of accessing those
low equity loans. I just think that's not a government
that's committed to making sure that Kiwis can get a
(21:02):
foot on the property.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Letder Criscipium is always a pleasure to thank you for
coming in for your monthly catch up. I know you
haven't been You're not that well and so it's appreciated
that you take your time out to come on to
the show and speak to the people of Wellington. Appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Good to be here, Nick, great to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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