The latest mood of the boardroom survey is out and the country's CEOs have rated the best performing ministers - so who are our panel's top three?
Also, some Wellington City Councillors tried to prevent the council painting over pro-Palestine graffiti - is it a councillors job to determine what should and shouldn't remain?
ChildFund CEO and Iron Duke Partners senior political and public policy advisor Maddy Burgess-Smith joined Nick Mills for Friday Faceoff.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk sed B dissecting the week sublime and ridiculous.
Friday face off with Quinovic Property Management, a better rental
experience for all Call oh eight hundred Quinovic Thursday.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Dozens starts.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Joining us for Friday face Off. This week is child
fun CEO Josie Pagani Joseph, good morning.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Good morning neck, much love friend, much love to you too.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Nice to see you again. Haven't seen each other for
a while. We haven't had coffee or lunch or anything.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
That's when we get the real gossip.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, that's when you tell me how badly I'm doing
or how well I'm doing. I quite like it. I'm
Duke Partner's senior political and Public Policy advisor, Maddy Burgess Smith. Maddy, welcome, Thank.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Both of you, right, Can I just tell you because
I want to say this or not the only reason
that you're on the show. But I went to my
son's graduation in twenty nineteen, and guests who spoke at
that graduation, I think she.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Was about my size.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
I think looked very like Maddie.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
And as Josie knows. I suffer a little bit from anxiety,
so I couldn't sit in the auditorium. I was standing
by the door, and when you spoke, I had tears
running down my eyes. So at the same time when
my son got his degree, I had tears running down
my eyes. I don't Your speech was amazing, and why
it was amazing it rang some chords to me. One
(01:44):
in five students that were sitting there would struggle with
mental health.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Issues to get there, and it would be more now mack.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Okay, I'll keep going because your facts were amazing. You
said that seven out of one hundred people graduate from
a university. That's incredible. So it's in a hell of
an achievement. And you said three words that struck a
chord with me. Luck, hard work, and support is what
(02:14):
gets somebody through a university degree. It's amazing for us, Josie,
to have a young person on the paddle that have
because a lot of our listeners, you know, they don't
understand what it takes to get you know, they would
have got a degree ye years and maybe fifty years ago.
They don't understand how tough it is now. And the
other thing you said it was the most expensive. I
think it's probably gone up now since those days through
(02:34):
that's five six years ago, but the year that you
went through university was the most expensive costwise to get
a degree ever.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, and I think it was important that a lot
of the people at the university heard that. And that's
where the luck piece comes in, because if you're born
into the right family, it'll be a breeze, but a
lot of key we kids aren't. And the fact that
you know your parents really needed to go to university
for you to go, there's the chances of you going
if you're first in family in this country are still
really low.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
It's interesting because I went to university in England. So
I was born in New Zealm and you know, my
parents got divorced, went to England and so I ended
up going to school and university there. Now, when I
went to university, it was a full grant, so everything
was paid and I got a full grant because it
was off my mum's income which was low. So I
was a low income and you know I had accommodation
(03:25):
supplement paid and so you know, I went. I went
to university with friends who came from very working class families.
They were because someone from up north of England whose
families had never been to university. You know that's changed
because you're right. And unless you've got either someone who's
been to university and your family before, or you've got
some funding coming in, that goes right. You're clever, you're bright.
(03:49):
We're going to make sure you get to university. Now
it's different. I mean it's only if you if your
parents can't afford to help you. I mean, otherwise got
our kids are ending up with these all. My kids
have got student dad and thirty thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I just give you one more fact that Maddy told
us on that day, that afternoon, beautiful afternoon, it was
to do. That's seven out of ten people that graduate.
Do you know that only twenty six percent of them
would have actually come from parents that didn't have a degree.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yes, well that's exactly the point, Necker.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
The chances are so slimp, so slimp.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
This is twenty six percent of seven percent. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I remember I got to the end of my first
year of university and my mum said to me, oh goodness,
I don't know if I paid your fees. You know,
like she thought it was like school fees, like when
you're at high school, you know, one hundred and fifty
dollars or something, and I had as mum. Fees are
actually massive and the government's got at the moment. But yeah,
I'll have them for the next probably decades to come.
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
The other thing I think, though, neck is it's really
important we really celebrate, you know, people who graduate. You
know you, Maddie, you know your sons and my kids.
We go, right, we're going to walk down the street.
You're going to be in a gown. We're going to
celebrate you. We're going to give you flowers, We're gonna clap.
We don't do it for I think of some of
my son's mates in Kapany. We don't do it when
they graduate as plumbers. Oh, I think we do now,
(05:04):
don't we We don't walk them down the street.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
We don't walk them down the street. But I think
we celebrate I think the good more.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
I think we should do more, because actually what New
Zealand needs is, yeah, we need that. We need people
getting educated, we need scientists, we need you know, people
who are going to come up with fantastic ideas about
what to do with our goddamn milk powder rather than
just selling the god now, yeah, but not enough, not enough.
But we also need tradees, right, we need people absolute stuff.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I think I think we do celebrate it. Well, I
definitely do celebrated because I tell you what, a trading
probably makes more than the lawyer right now, So how
many lawyers?
Speaker 4 (05:38):
What kind of lawyers are you going to? And deservingly
so you're going to load the cheap one.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
No, no, I definitely aren't. But I'm saying first year
and sort of second year and the Herald's Annual surveys out,
let's start the show. The annual Herald's Annual surveys out
the business leaders have ranked the best performing government government ministers.
Erica Stanford came out on top, followed by Simeon Brown,
Nikola Willis and Chris Bishop. Come on, Josie, start us off.
(06:04):
Who you are best performing three ministers? And why?
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Well, I knew you were going to ask this, so
I was thinking, so what is the actual criteria for
going who do we think is a good minister? And
for me, it's it's this thing called the ming Var's politician.
Politicians that are so risk averse and careful that they're
like they're carrying a priceless ming vase across a floor
trying not to drop it. You know, and you want,
Actually what you want is politicians who I don't know
(06:29):
carrying a tray full of glasses across a dance floor
and maybe they'll slip, but at least they've got a
trayful of glasses. In other words, you want you want
politicians who take risks, even if you don't agree with them.
And so my top three would be ones that you
know they're willing not to be popular. And actually governing
is not about being liked. It's not about being popular.
It's actually about making changes. Can give no because you've
(06:51):
got to go have a context in it. I'm not
just going to give you a list without understanding what's
driving my list. And it's really important that we understand
what what are you judging it for? Right, So it's
brave politicians who take risks. So I think Erica Stanford
is definitely one that I would say I can see
why she's at the top.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I agree, she's my number one.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
She's gone out, she's taken on. You know, I'm not
saying I necessarily agree with what she's doing. But she's
gone parents have a problem, have a legitimate problem about
kids not coming out with enough literacy, maths, the basics,
you know, reading, writing and so on. And she's just
taken that on and gone in and you know, whatever
you think of it, you admire her courage.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Do we think it's put a bit of a target
on her back though she's been leading every headline the
last few days with her parliamentary colleagues. Surely this is
you know she's going to.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
If you're winning your winning, if you're winning your grinning,
you're doing all right, isn't it. Momentum. Momentum is a
good thing, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
And if you're making change, yes, that's the thing. You
can be a politician that most people like, and I'm
thinking of a former prime minister here. You know, you
can be a very popular prime minister, a very popular politician.
But if you're doing something that's tough, you've got to
go out and persuade people that it's the right thing
to do to get to the outcome they want, like
lower health, a lower waiting list.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
We're ten minutes into the show and you've only given
me the first one.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, but I think that's the point.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yes, she's got she's setting the bar high for her colleagues, right.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
She's she's setting the bar hype, she's Yes, she's got
a time.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Everything about her is right? You trust her? Well, you're
talking too much. Look back to the old Josie Bagardi
where I have to kick you under the day in
table and say, excuse me, can I have a comment here?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I think that she's intelligent, she's smart. Yeah, she's articulate,
and she cares and she fixes things. How can that
not be right?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
And she's talking directly to parents, right, Yes, that's right.
I feel like she's working for you and it's just
that thing that she's make herself. She's prepared to make
yourself unpopular. Right.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
My other two in that same vein of politicians that
are prepared to come out and say things to make
them a bit unpopular, and they're prepared to go out
and persuade. I would say Winston Peters. I mean, I
loved it that he was at the un this week
or was it last week, and he's saying an absolutely
important thing that New Zealand has said many pub subsequent
governments that we need to do something about the veto
(09:07):
in the Security Council that stops the UN doing anything.
So this is Russia and China or America vetoing.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
But he still, here's your number two. I'm trying to
give many a charge.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
But he stood up.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
It was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
He stood up.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
And he's giving a speech in the UN and people
are talking. So he says some typical Winston Peter's fashion,
he goes, well, where I come from, people are quiet
when other people are speaking, So I'd like a bit
of hush please, And I love it that you did that.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
I'm trying to do it here. I'm not getting anywhere
a third person. We've got so far after twenty seven minutes.
We've got Eric A. Stadford one, and we've got Winston
Peters too.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
To see, we were to divide who's talked the most,
it would be you nixt so shut up. So the
third one, I would say in the same vein would
be Shane Jones, who I think has gone out and
said I don't want to de industrialize New Zealand. We're
not going to just ban oil and gas. And that's really.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Hard for him to do because he's got to take
on the whole climate change lobby. And he also said
the opposite thing, you know, only only a few years
back when he was in Ardurn's government. Yes, that's not
so courageous.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Come on, Mattie, you give us your three and you
don't have to take as long as Josie. That wasn't
a good introduction to our show.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
But Josie makes a good point about the risk piece, right,
because the mood of the boardroom was was business owners
ranking politicians. Now, who takes risks more than business owner?
It's like bloody no one. So for that reason, I
actually think the list is pretty accurate. I put Winston
Peters's number three, but by and large because he here's
you one. Well, I'm going I'm building up now come,
(10:36):
I'm a drum roll girl.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
He hasn't stood the part in the way that we
thought he would in this coalition government. He's really let
Chrisph Luxen get on and be the Prime Minister and be,
you know, be the leader of this government.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
And he's traveled to more.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, he's been out of the country most of the time.
Pab Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Look, maybe that's de liberate, maybe it's deliberate, but it's
certainly working number two for me. Sime and Brown some
really hard portfolios transport energy. I feel every release that's
coming out of the beehive has got his name on it.
Not that that's a metric for success, but it's clear
that he's working hard. The guy's thirty three.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And nuts is that amazing?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Absolutely amazing. And met him I have a couple of times.
He's about as tall as I am. Yeah, and it's
five foot one to Minister of Minister of everything. Yeah,
he really is. He's doing a great job and hugely
popular policies, you know, potholes. He's managed to localize what
seems to be wrong at the moment so that people
can feel like, oh, well, the government's doing something for me.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Also in the middle of it, you know, yes, he's
doing the potholes, but he's the portfolio Minister for energy
at a time where we've got an energy crisis.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
No one's kicking out.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Highest energy prices in the world exactly, and you know,
if we think that's.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
OK, we're ready for your drum hole.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Now my drum roll comes with a declaration. In my
spare time, I am Chris Bishop's campaign manager, so he
has to get my number one spot.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Oh, now you make me feel like dry reaching.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Chris is working really hard. But here's the reason I've
picked this week. And if look, if we had it
gone last week, Erica Stanford made have taken up my tops.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
But she didn't even get in the top three.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But she's doing amazing. You know, she'd made both of
your top threes. I wanted to put a spotlight on
thirty three year old Simon and the hard working guy
in the heart and the reason is in his recent
overseas trips. You know, all ministers have to give their expenses.
It has been found that he is regularly eating out
at McDonald's when he's traveling across the world. Other ministers
(12:24):
at luxury seafood restaurants. He is, you know, keeping time.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I think we both could give him a bit of
advice about it. I don't think it's the world of good.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
I think you should give up quickly us to have
a mullet.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Can I quickly ask you both, because I want to
move on to something else and have an air break
before I lose my job Prime minister? You didn't neither
of you mentioned the Prime minister now really quickly? How
well was he performing? It is, he is performing as
well as he should be.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
I don't think it's clear yet, and it should be
because they've been in government long enough that the government
and the Prime Minister is the owner of this has
a plan, a really strong plan for where they want
to take New Zealand. So they're getting distracted with, you know,
issues around the treaty, treaty principles that been pulled that way,
I know, by act, you know. So I think they're
(13:10):
getting distracted with things, the stuff that you've been talking
about at the cigarettes and everything like that, and it's
just noise that's taking away from every good. Government has
to own the future and to do that you need
a plan and I'm not sure what that plan is.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Look, at the end of the day, the Prime Minister
is the leader of a team. His team's doing bloody good, right.
So when we look at those top ten politicians in
the rankings, nine of them with the exception of Winston Peters,
you know that they were all his team, right, and
I think he needs to be ranked higher as a
result of basically doing a really good job in that space.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, there you go. We learned yesterday that some left
wing Warington City Councils, including the Mayor of ours the
council staff to break away from council policy to remove
all graffiti on both public and privately owned buildings in
the CBD and leave the pro Palestine messages in place, Maddy,
Should councilors be choosing what graffiti should stay and what shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
No, it's vandalism, and that the council gets to pack
which political messages can be sprayed across our city illegally
and which aren't. That is just ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
What should be done should be all cleaned up.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, it should be all cleaned up, and there should
be a blanket rule. You know, we do not accept
people defacing public or private property, regardless of what that
messaging is.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Oh my god, when are we going to get rid
of this council?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Really?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I mean to be focused on something like that. I mean,
it's taking the over focus on cycle ways to a
whole new level. So I think there are two issues here.
One is you can say that there's a freedom of
speech argument that you know, political statements in terms of
graffiti should be a freedom of expression. But if you're
(14:43):
going to make that argument as a counselor, which I
don't think you should because I agree that Himan graffiti's graffiti.
But if you are making an argument that it's political
speech and that it you know, whether you disagree with
it or not, it should be there, you've got to
apply it to the same graffiti that you disagree with.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And I certainly can't see this council doing that.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
No, But like someone gave the instance of I think
it was a counselor that an act slogan was put up,
you know, both David Seymour at they get rid of
that protict.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Yeah, so that's the point. That's so a that's this
is not a freedom of speech or freedom of expression argument.
They can't make that one because they're saying not only
this expression, but not that view, not that speech, only
that speech. So that's you know, that doesn't stack up.
But also to me, it just it just reveals again, Nick,
what the hell is this council focusing on. I mean,
(15:27):
we have a city, as you will know, that's that's dying,
and it's in a slow death. We've got shops closing,
we've got retail closing, restaurants closing. There's nothing happening here.
It feels like it's on life support and we're having
a conversation they're deciding. You know, the biggest thing they
have to do is say protect graffiti. That's pro Palestine graffiti.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
That's going to be on empty shops pretty soon.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Actually, there'll be more graffiti.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
That's why they can get away with it more than shops. Yeah,
I mean, Maddie, can I just quickly ask you it's
not on the topic list, but you're a young person,
go get her. I mean, does the city feel different
to when you arrived here? And what twenty and fifteen,
twenty sixteen, two thousand and seven, I'm guessing here when
you're arrived.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, no it does. And I'm not as doom and
gloom about Wellington as a lot of people are. There
are still plenty of bars and restaurants you cannot get
a table on right.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
If you'm up, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
This is a depressing place. If you're going to you're
going up with depressing people. Basically, you know, there is
still a lot of vibrancy in the city. I would
say that over the last year it has felt safer,
only just but look, as a young woman walking through
Manor Street, that's still a scary place just because of
the unpredictability of some of the people living and working
through their mental health challenges on our streets. So it's
(16:43):
changed for better and worse in different ways.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think the big thing's like when we're talking about
the government and Luxeon, you know, where's the vision, where's
the plan? And that's the problem with Wellington. I don't
see anybody coming up with the sort of vision. And
years ago I worked on the amalgamation campaign, Nick, do
you remember that.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
We need to do it again over yea?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And the plan of.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
That was really simple that you have Wellington Central. You
can't build anymore in Wellington Central, so you make it
hospit kind of you know, fun destination party place that
you go to. It's the government place, it's buzzing with
cafes and so on. And you make Patoni you know,
warehouse space, you make I don't know out in Patoni
back at Silicon Valley, you make company.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
The whole amalgamation thing needs to be detecting.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
You have a plan for the whole region where you
work out where you can grow and where the sector
should be.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Let's start with you on this one. Josie amidst the
controversy of a scale back Dunedin hospital rebuild, Health New
Zealand has floated the idea of a public private partnership
for hospital builds, or private companies building and owning hospitals
and leasing them back to the government. You even this
is a good idea.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Well, I'm in favor of publicly owned health and free
public health care where we can have it. We've got
a major problem though, I know, with with massive elderly
population growing and growing as we all get older, and
the pressure on the health system is massive. So I
think these sorts of ideas does to be looked at.
(18:08):
And I look, I remember when I was in the UK,
there was a health minister there, Alan Melbourne, who was
working for Tony Blair. So you know, Labor government came
up with this idea of foundation hospitals and it was
about he said, I don't care who owns the bricks
and mortar of the hospitals. I want the services to
be publicly owned and I want the services to be
free or cheap to people who need them. So that's
(18:30):
my bottom line. If you're this is a way of
being able to raise capital from the private sector to
build the hospitals, but the public services are still public.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Go for it, Maddie. Do you think people care the
public care? Who owns the actual hospital of jo just.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Ma is a great point. It's bricks and concrete. Who cares?
You know, most businesses don't own the building that they
operate in, so why should the government be any different?
And they've proven to us all in themselves time and
time again they're terrible at building things and they're terrible
at maintaining things. If the public are still showing up
to an ED and they're getting the service that they deserve,
and they're getting that service for free, I really don't
(19:05):
think it matters.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Yeah, the bottom line is if you believe in It's
like in England it's the NHS, the National Health Service. Here,
you know we have free hospital care for those who
need it. We've got massive waiting lists. My daughter was
on one for many months to try and get back surgery.
I want those waiting lists to go down. If it
means that the bricks and water are built by a
(19:27):
business that owns the building and leases it back to
the public sector, so be it. I want the waiting
liss down.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
We can't afford the capital investment that we need, let
alone want, in this country. So we do need to
start thinking about things differently and the public need to
be along for the ride in that.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
What do you think, Nick, I totally agree because you
know what happens is that you can ring up the
owner of the building and say hey, I've got a
leak here and it gets You don't have to ring
a hospital board and say, well have you applied on
the right figure? Is that part of your budget?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And this is what they do. You know, they build
and own and operate large scale infrastructure investments professionally and commercially.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
And the weird thing is that the hospital in New
Zealand medical community re s out hundreds of flaws of
buildings owned by private people because it's not according it's
no problem. We're in the Head Office of Health New Zealand,
We'll be in a rented space.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Look, we have we have to work out what is
the thing we're trying to protect and it's free health
or affordable health and it's reducing waiting lists. Those are
the outcomes we want. However we get there whatever the
tactic doesn't don't don't confuse tactics with outcomes.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I mean, does it skier? You both just really quickly
and this is not part of our discussion, but does
it quick scare you that? You know, the rates of
health insurance is just screamingly high. I mean, you know,
the numbers just keep going higher and higher, so people
people aren't using the public system anymore, They're just taking
their own health.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
And I'm terrified about the health system.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You have health insurance, no, No, I've never.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Had health insurance either. And I've had kids who needed
to be in hospital, either as kids or young adults now,
and you know, you kind of go, what I one
of one of ours send ups there and something in
the hospital, and you I really worry that those waiting
lists are so long you end up with young people
being addicted to painkillers, morphine, tramadol, whatever it is because
(21:12):
they can't yet get the surgery they need. I'm really
terrified about it.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, I'm terrified of not having health insurance, I mean
our health insurance insurance. Yeah, And it's like one thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
A month at least, that's exactly. And Southern Cross put
up some numbers this week. People are claiming on it
as well, they are really using their health insurance, which
means those premiums are only going to keep going up.
Thanks that you make sure you get your share of
the PITHN.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I'm happy pay it and stayed healthy.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
When I was young, it was just no one would
have thought to buy health insurance and it wasn't something
you could afford anyway.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Because we live in the country that looked after us.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
We've got a public health system that looks after us well.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
And it still looks after us, just not in a
timely fashion.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Which actually not looking at it.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The privilege, the privilege of our healthcare and New Zealands
that you don't have to wait. Stuff can just happen
for you.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
I want to talk about airport sale chairs well Intern
City Council make or broake vote as next thursday, whether
it sells, it's thirty four percent stake in Wellington Airport
will take place. It's actually next Thursday. This is such
a major thing for Warrington City Council. Josie. How important
is it for Tory FARO to win this vote and
(22:23):
what could actually happen if they don't when they have
to go back and start their ten year plan again.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, I think for the Tory is the man. I mean,
you think it's just been sort of failure after failure,
isn't it. So there's the reading cinema deal, which kind
of spectacularly exploded for them, and just this, you know,
the general kind of you know, one scandal after another
and you know what's been done, keep willing to moving.
It has to have stopped. So she does need a win.
(22:50):
And this was clearly you know, her sop to the
right of the council, the right wing members of the
Council to go right. You know, it's an olive branch.
I'll support you in the sale of the shares. I
mean my view, I think it's going to fail. So
it's going to be another thing we think it's going
to find it's going to fail. Yeah, looking at I mean,
I haven't done a great analysis of the numbers around
(23:11):
the council table.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
The numbers. It's going to fail, but we don't know
in the.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Day, so we don't know on the day, but it
looks like it will fail. And I think, look, you know,
I'm uncomfortable about something being something like a regional airport
that's so important to the country being one hundred percent
privately owned, and I think, you know, it's a bit
of a cash cow for the for the council. You know,
I don't want you know, it feels like sort of
more Wilson, you know now owns an airport. You know it
(23:35):
would be I'm so sick of one one parking building
in the city being Wilson.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
We just can't lie or to keep it though we
really catch You want them cash care, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
I do, but it's makes money.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
It's important that we have a diverse portfolio of investments.
And the council is so underinsured that the airport's under insured.
If there is a big seismic event here, you know,
we're on the We're on the leisure to fix that
one up as well. I agree Tory needs runs on
the board, but I don't think this is going to
be it either.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Can I tell you that, because when people bring that
that comment up and I don't have a I do
have opinion. I think of you in my life. You
don't sell anything unless you really need to, So assets
you don't sell unless you really need to. That's my mo.
But people talk about if a big earthquake came. Let
me tell you the first thing in christ Church that
got fixed when the earthquake happened. There was the airport
(24:26):
because you needed to get in and out. The government's
going to step straight in and sort that out really quickly.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
You know.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Interesting, Maddie said, You know, are the publicly owned the
public things infrastructure that you think should be publicly owned?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Or you?
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Or you?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
When there when there is a public good element At
the end of the day, we only own thirty four
percent of the airport right the rest of it's owned
by Yeah, and they make a massive profit off that.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
And if you are making that big of a profit,
well there's clearly more than just a public good element
to this.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Read the council makes profit too.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
The council makes a funny fit too. But you've got
two hundred and seventy eight million dollars tied up there.
I agree with you, Nick, You only sell assets when
you really need to, and we really need to at this.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Why don't they? Then? Why don't they we're having this conversation.
My thing is why don't they sell their social housing?
Because why do we have a government running social housing
and a local council running social so that's worth the
same amount of money. So you get rid of that
and give it all to the government.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Council is the second largest property owner in New Zealand,
behind Caring or the government.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yes, so if you're going to sell something you've got
an asset with they say that their they're public their
social housing portfolio is worth about the same, about four
hundred to a half a billion, right million time. That's
the same as what they say. I'm only giving the talks.
I don't know the figures. They haven't seen them. The
same as the sale of the airport. One makes them
a lot of money and one loses them a lot
(25:46):
of money.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
What would you sell, Oh, you'd sell the social housing portfolio. First,
it's it's decrepit.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
And it's not inconvenience anyone. They're still got places to
tell it.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
It's gone as an asset.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Well, the same as can be said about the airport.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
But it's not an asset because it's not making money.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
The social housing I agree.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
With social housing, I would look at at and again
it's a bit like the conversation had about hospitals. You
know who owns the bricks and watar doesn't matter as
long as you are providing social housing. So I would
and I would devolve to EWE Corporations, which in essence
is a privately owned body. But you know, EWE are
going to be better at running longing for EWI and
(26:26):
the same thing with you know, it could be habitat
for humanity. It could be the Sallies Salvation Army, who
do a lot of housing stuff. So I think creatively
big picture about that. But if you're looking at selling
the airport, and I do think it's a public good
in the sense that it's we cannot function as and
the city's you know, bugget already we can't function without
that regional airport working, and so it is something it
(26:47):
is a strategic asset for a snack.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Okay, I want to like keep working.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
It will keep working. It's got a private owner who's
incentivized to make it operates and make more of a place.
If I was a private owner, I go, right, you know,
lost leader, I'm walking away from that airport.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I mean, I can't know that happening, can you?
Speaker 4 (27:03):
But you want to guarantee that it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Right, Let's make let's lighten it up a little bit
before we go to hots and knots. Woolwors closing their
fresh fish counter, saying that consumers prefer the convenience of
price and price of prepackaged seafoodge Now, I came out
pretty strong on this, n I said, I don't actually
buy fresh from any supermarket, littlelone, prepackaged stuff that you
don't know how old is, Maddie? Start me up here,
where do you buy your fresh fish from?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Look, I'm going to show my privilege. My dad fishes
my fresh fish for me. But if I was going
to buy it, I certainly would not be getting it
out of you. To your point, Nick, a plastic package this.
I'm scared to see them go. How cool was the
muscle then when you were a kid at the supermarket?
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Well, if you ate muscles though cool if you didn't
eat must I don't like muscles, so didn't.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
But it's only Woolworths, isn't it. Let's still go to
pack and save and you can still go to a
New World and.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
You buy your fish.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
I don't actually pack and save. I reckon at a
new Will. It's quite a fast turnover, like they get
fresh fish quite a lot. But I would never buy.
I agree, Maddie, I would never buy my fish in
something that's been sealed with some glad wrap and sat
on a shelf, because it looks like it's been there
for ages. Whereas at least if you look at a fish,
you know, you go to the fish bar at the
supermarket and counter and you can see, okay, that salmon
(28:14):
looks that turkey looks fresh.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
So maybe you just bring your dad up and say, look,
I want some fish tonight, can you drop some more?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
He's just the best. And I think that I've seen
such a good fisherman live on air. It's going to
earn me, you know, endless brownie port.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
And I tell you where my husband is at the moment,
in the middle of the Indian Ocean, sailing from Bali
to South Africa via Madagascar. This is like two months
at sea with David Shearer, the former leader of the
Labor Party.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I just think it's probably how fresh the fish is
in our Supermarket's probably coming from David.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
And that means a new meeting from what is it,
distant relationship, don't they two months away?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I love them a lot lot more?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Do we always love our partners?
Speaker 4 (28:56):
It's like, yeah, you look so lovely from Afar.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Okay, take a short break and have hots and knots,
and hopefully it won't be a hot that your husband's
away for twos because said dad is my hot. I
know that where I'd be sleeping.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
I'm not going to say on the radio.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
No, that's for sure, the Friday face off hot.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
They're not Friday face off. Oh my gosh, I'm getting
a little bit of a hard time for my guests here,
Joseph Bagani and Maddie Burgess Smith. Joseh, you go first,
and hots and nots, and can you please be quick
so man, you can get hers of it.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Oh, this has gone on for fifteen years or something. Next,
isn't it nothing?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
You never listen to me.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
It will take as long as I want. No, very quickly,
min Not hot is a one that you'll all agree with.
I know, the fear that we're escalating in to a
sort of nineteen thirty eight moment, pre war moment. It
feels very volatile at the moment in the world. Stuff's
happening in the Middle East, as you know, and I've
been doing a bit of analysis of this. Nineteen thirty eight,
(29:54):
you know, you had various theaters of war that didn't
seem connected, and suddenly they were Japan, Germany, Abyssinia and
so on, and suddenly it all came together. I don't
think we're there yet, but it's a very scary time
in New Zealand needs be very careful how we monitor
our independent foreign policy so we don't get stuck and stuff.
My hot is this wonderful tongue and actor JP Folyiaki.
(30:16):
Do you know JP Falyiaki. He's now on Celebrity Treasure
Island and he's picked our charity ChildFund as his charity
and he's raising money for US for kids who don't
have access to water or good food or can't get
to school in the Outer Islands. And he's already raised
enough money to help about twenty five families in the
Outer Islands of Curribus and Solons. And he's a lovely actor.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
You should go on Celebrity Treasure Island. Neck.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I'm not a celebrity, and yes I'd love to, but
I was a celebrity made. Please give us your hots and.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Not yeah, well mine not hot is also kind of
flying related and gosh, I've had a pretty good week.
I think the worst thing that happened to me this
week is I didn't get my cup of tea or
bicky on my Air New Zealand flight. But a lot
of changes in the in the air New Zealand realm
at the moment. And you know, we talk about public
good and you know who should own what, But a
lot of cutting of flights happening at the moment to
different regional places, which is tough. They're a national carrier.
(31:05):
They're supposed to get U where we want to go
and they get text breaks And my that was my
not hot.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Sorry you keep should have been and my hot.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Daylight savings on all year round.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
It should be all year round.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
It it should be. It's good for your health, get
out for a walk, good for the we'll spend money
your bars, good for safety, list car accidents.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Hot today is you tube? Both of you? What a
great combination. Weren't it great to have a veteran and
a newcomer? Not saying that in a derogatory term, because
hell a lot older than you.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
You're the veteran. Where I go, God, all my friends
look really old, and then I go, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
I don't care so much. Maddy, and of course Josie
Pecanni Pagardian Co Six minutes to twelve. Thank you both
very much.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Thank you Nick.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on I Heard Radio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk sed B dissecting the week sublime and ridiculous.
Friday face off with Quinovic Property Management, a better rental
experience for all Call oh eight hundred Quinovic Thursday.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Dozens starts.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Joining us for Friday face Off. This week is child
fun CEO Josie Pagani Joseph, good morning.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Good morning neck, much love friend, much love to you too.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Nice to see you again. Haven't seen each other for
a while. We haven't had coffee or lunch or anything.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
That's when we get the real gossip.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, that's when you tell me how badly I'm doing
or how well I'm doing. I quite like it. I'm
Duke Partner's senior political and Public Policy advisor, Maddy Burgess Smith. Maddy, welcome, Thank.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Both of you, right, Can I just tell you because
I want to say this or not the only reason
that you're on the show. But I went to my
son's graduation in twenty nineteen, and guests who spoke at
that graduation, I think she.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Was about my size.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
I think looked very like Maddie.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
And as Josie knows. I suffer a little bit from anxiety,
so I couldn't sit in the auditorium. I was standing
by the door, and when you spoke, I had tears
running down my eyes. So at the same time when
my son got his degree, I had tears running down
my eyes. I don't Your speech was amazing, and why
it was amazing it rang some chords to me. One
(01:44):
in five students that were sitting there would struggle with
mental health.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Issues to get there, and it would be more now mack.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Okay, I'll keep going because your facts were amazing. You
said that seven out of one hundred people graduate from
a university. That's incredible. So it's in a hell of
an achievement. And you said three words that struck a
chord with me. Luck, hard work, and support is what
(02:14):
gets somebody through a university degree. It's amazing for us, Josie,
to have a young person on the paddle that have
because a lot of our listeners, you know, they don't
understand what it takes to get you know, they would
have got a degree ye years and maybe fifty years ago.
They don't understand how tough it is now. And the
other thing you said it was the most expensive. I
think it's probably gone up now since those days through
(02:34):
that's five six years ago, but the year that you
went through university was the most expensive costwise to get
a degree ever.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, and I think it was important that a lot
of the people at the university heard that. And that's
where the luck piece comes in, because if you're born
into the right family, it'll be a breeze, but a
lot of key we kids aren't. And the fact that
you know your parents really needed to go to university
for you to go, there's the chances of you going
if you're first in family in this country are still
really low.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
It's interesting because I went to university in England. So
I was born in New Zealm and you know, my
parents got divorced, went to England and so I ended
up going to school and university there. Now, when I
went to university, it was a full grant, so everything
was paid and I got a full grant because it
was off my mum's income which was low. So I
was a low income and you know I had accommodation
(03:25):
supplement paid and so you know, I went. I went
to university with friends who came from very working class families.
They were because someone from up north of England whose
families had never been to university. You know that's changed
because you're right. And unless you've got either someone who's
been to university and your family before, or you've got
some funding coming in, that goes right. You're clever, you're bright.
(03:49):
We're going to make sure you get to university. Now
it's different. I mean it's only if you if your
parents can't afford to help you. I mean, otherwise got
our kids are ending up with these all. My kids
have got student dad and thirty thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I just give you one more fact that Maddy told
us on that day, that afternoon, beautiful afternoon, it was
to do. That's seven out of ten people that graduate.
Do you know that only twenty six percent of them
would have actually come from parents that didn't have a degree.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yes, well that's exactly the point, Necker.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
The chances are so slimp, so slimp.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
This is twenty six percent of seven percent. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I remember I got to the end of my first
year of university and my mum said to me, oh goodness,
I don't know if I paid your fees. You know,
like she thought it was like school fees, like when
you're at high school, you know, one hundred and fifty
dollars or something, and I had as mum. Fees are
actually massive and the government's got at the moment. But yeah,
I'll have them for the next probably decades to come.
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
The other thing I think, though, neck is it's really
important we really celebrate, you know, people who graduate. You
know you, Maddie, you know your sons and my kids.
We go, right, we're going to walk down the street.
You're going to be in a gown. We're going to
celebrate you. We're going to give you flowers, We're gonna clap.
We don't do it for I think of some of
my son's mates in Kapany. We don't do it when
they graduate as plumbers. Oh, I think we do now,
(05:04):
don't we We don't walk them down the street.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
We don't walk them down the street. But I think
we celebrate I think the good more.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
I think we should do more, because actually what New
Zealand needs is, yeah, we need that. We need people
getting educated, we need scientists, we need you know, people
who are going to come up with fantastic ideas about
what to do with our goddamn milk powder rather than
just selling the god now, yeah, but not enough, not enough.
But we also need tradees, right, we need people absolute stuff.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I think I think we do celebrate it. Well, I
definitely do celebrated because I tell you what, a trading
probably makes more than the lawyer right now, So how
many lawyers?
Speaker 4 (05:38):
What kind of lawyers are you going to? And deservingly
so you're going to load the cheap one.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
No, no, I definitely aren't. But I'm saying first year
and sort of second year and the Herald's Annual surveys out,
let's start the show. The annual Herald's Annual surveys out
the business leaders have ranked the best performing government government ministers.
Erica Stanford came out on top, followed by Simeon Brown,
Nikola Willis and Chris Bishop. Come on, Josie, start us off.
(06:04):
Who you are best performing three ministers? And why?
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Well, I knew you were going to ask this, so
I was thinking, so what is the actual criteria for
going who do we think is a good minister? And
for me, it's it's this thing called the ming Var's politician.
Politicians that are so risk averse and careful that they're
like they're carrying a priceless ming vase across a floor
trying not to drop it. You know, and you want,
Actually what you want is politicians who I don't know
(06:29):
carrying a tray full of glasses across a dance floor
and maybe they'll slip, but at least they've got a
trayful of glasses. In other words, you want you want
politicians who take risks, even if you don't agree with them.
And so my top three would be ones that you
know they're willing not to be popular. And actually governing
is not about being liked. It's not about being popular.
It's actually about making changes. Can give no because you've
(06:51):
got to go have a context in it. I'm not
just going to give you a list without understanding what's
driving my list. And it's really important that we understand
what what are you judging it for? Right, So it's
brave politicians who take risks. So I think Erica Stanford
is definitely one that I would say I can see
why she's at the top.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I agree, she's my number one.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
She's gone out, she's taken on. You know, I'm not
saying I necessarily agree with what she's doing. But she's
gone parents have a problem, have a legitimate problem about
kids not coming out with enough literacy, maths, the basics,
you know, reading, writing and so on. And she's just
taken that on and gone in and you know, whatever
you think of it, you admire her courage.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Do we think it's put a bit of a target
on her back though she's been leading every headline the
last few days with her parliamentary colleagues. Surely this is
you know she's going to.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
If you're winning your winning, if you're winning your grinning,
you're doing all right, isn't it. Momentum. Momentum is a
good thing, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
And if you're making change, yes, that's the thing. You
can be a politician that most people like, and I'm
thinking of a former prime minister here. You know, you
can be a very popular prime minister, a very popular politician.
But if you're doing something that's tough, you've got to
go out and persuade people that it's the right thing
to do to get to the outcome they want, like
lower health, a lower waiting list.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
We're ten minutes into the show and you've only given
me the first one.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, but I think that's the point.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yes, she's got she's setting the bar high for her colleagues, right.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
She's she's setting the bar hype, she's Yes, she's got
a time.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Everything about her is right? You trust her? Well, you're
talking too much. Look back to the old Josie Bagardi
where I have to kick you under the day in
table and say, excuse me, can I have a comment here?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I think that she's intelligent, she's smart. Yeah, she's articulate,
and she cares and she fixes things. How can that
not be right?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
And she's talking directly to parents, right, Yes, that's right.
I feel like she's working for you and it's just
that thing that she's make herself. She's prepared to make
yourself unpopular. Right.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
My other two in that same vein of politicians that
are prepared to come out and say things to make
them a bit unpopular, and they're prepared to go out
and persuade. I would say Winston Peters. I mean, I
loved it that he was at the un this week
or was it last week, and he's saying an absolutely
important thing that New Zealand has said many pub subsequent
governments that we need to do something about the veto
(09:07):
in the Security Council that stops the UN doing anything.
So this is Russia and China or America vetoing.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
But he still, here's your number two. I'm trying to
give many a charge.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
But he stood up.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
It was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
He stood up.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
And he's giving a speech in the UN and people
are talking. So he says some typical Winston Peter's fashion,
he goes, well, where I come from, people are quiet
when other people are speaking, So I'd like a bit
of hush please, And I love it that you did that.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
I'm trying to do it here. I'm not getting anywhere
a third person. We've got so far after twenty seven minutes.
We've got Eric A. Stadford one, and we've got Winston
Peters too.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
To see, we were to divide who's talked the most,
it would be you nixt so shut up. So the
third one, I would say in the same vein would
be Shane Jones, who I think has gone out and
said I don't want to de industrialize New Zealand. We're
not going to just ban oil and gas. And that's really.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Hard for him to do because he's got to take
on the whole climate change lobby. And he also said
the opposite thing, you know, only only a few years
back when he was in Ardurn's government. Yes, that's not
so courageous.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Come on, Mattie, you give us your three and you
don't have to take as long as Josie. That wasn't
a good introduction to our show.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
But Josie makes a good point about the risk piece, right,
because the mood of the boardroom was was business owners
ranking politicians. Now, who takes risks more than business owner?
It's like bloody no one. So for that reason, I
actually think the list is pretty accurate. I put Winston
Peters's number three, but by and large because he here's
you one. Well, I'm going I'm building up now come,
(10:36):
I'm a drum roll girl.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
He hasn't stood the part in the way that we
thought he would in this coalition government. He's really let
Chrisph Luxen get on and be the Prime Minister and be,
you know, be the leader of this government.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
And he's traveled to more.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, he's been out of the country most of the time.
Pab Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Look, maybe that's de liberate, maybe it's deliberate, but it's
certainly working number two for me. Sime and Brown some
really hard portfolios transport energy. I feel every release that's
coming out of the beehive has got his name on it.
Not that that's a metric for success, but it's clear
that he's working hard. The guy's thirty three.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And nuts is that amazing?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Absolutely amazing. And met him I have a couple of times.
He's about as tall as I am. Yeah, and it's
five foot one to Minister of Minister of everything. Yeah,
he really is. He's doing a great job and hugely
popular policies, you know, potholes. He's managed to localize what
seems to be wrong at the moment so that people
can feel like, oh, well, the government's doing something for me.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Also in the middle of it, you know, yes, he's
doing the potholes, but he's the portfolio Minister for energy
at a time where we've got an energy crisis.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
No one's kicking out.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Highest energy prices in the world exactly, and you know,
if we think that's.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
OK, we're ready for your drum hole.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Now my drum roll comes with a declaration. In my
spare time, I am Chris Bishop's campaign manager, so he
has to get my number one spot.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Oh, now you make me feel like dry reaching.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Chris is working really hard. But here's the reason I've
picked this week. And if look, if we had it
gone last week, Erica Stanford made have taken up my tops.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
But she didn't even get in the top three.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But she's doing amazing. You know, she'd made both of
your top threes. I wanted to put a spotlight on
thirty three year old Simon and the hard working guy
in the heart and the reason is in his recent
overseas trips. You know, all ministers have to give their expenses.
It has been found that he is regularly eating out
at McDonald's when he's traveling across the world. Other ministers
(12:24):
at luxury seafood restaurants. He is, you know, keeping time.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I think we both could give him a bit of
advice about it. I don't think it's the world of good.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
I think you should give up quickly us to have
a mullet.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Can I quickly ask you both, because I want to
move on to something else and have an air break
before I lose my job Prime minister? You didn't neither
of you mentioned the Prime minister now really quickly? How
well was he performing? It is, he is performing as
well as he should be.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
I don't think it's clear yet, and it should be
because they've been in government long enough that the government
and the Prime Minister is the owner of this has
a plan, a really strong plan for where they want
to take New Zealand. So they're getting distracted with, you know,
issues around the treaty, treaty principles that been pulled that way,
I know, by act, you know. So I think they're
(13:10):
getting distracted with things, the stuff that you've been talking
about at the cigarettes and everything like that, and it's
just noise that's taking away from every good. Government has
to own the future and to do that you need
a plan and I'm not sure what that plan is.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Look, at the end of the day, the Prime Minister
is the leader of a team. His team's doing bloody good, right.
So when we look at those top ten politicians in
the rankings, nine of them with the exception of Winston Peters,
you know that they were all his team, right, and
I think he needs to be ranked higher as a
result of basically doing a really good job in that space.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, there you go. We learned yesterday that some left
wing Warington City Councils, including the Mayor of ours the
council staff to break away from council policy to remove
all graffiti on both public and privately owned buildings in
the CBD and leave the pro Palestine messages in place, Maddy,
Should councilors be choosing what graffiti should stay and what shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
No, it's vandalism, and that the council gets to pack
which political messages can be sprayed across our city illegally
and which aren't. That is just ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
What should be done should be all cleaned up.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, it should be all cleaned up, and there should
be a blanket rule. You know, we do not accept
people defacing public or private property, regardless of what that
messaging is.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Oh my god, when are we going to get rid
of this council?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Really?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I mean to be focused on something like that. I mean,
it's taking the over focus on cycle ways to a
whole new level. So I think there are two issues here.
One is you can say that there's a freedom of
speech argument that you know, political statements in terms of
graffiti should be a freedom of expression. But if you're
(14:43):
going to make that argument as a counselor, which I
don't think you should because I agree that Himan graffiti's graffiti.
But if you are making an argument that it's political
speech and that it you know, whether you disagree with
it or not, it should be there, you've got to
apply it to the same graffiti that you disagree with.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And I certainly can't see this council doing that.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
No, But like someone gave the instance of I think
it was a counselor that an act slogan was put up,
you know, both David Seymour at they get rid of
that protict.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Yeah, so that's the point. That's so a that's this
is not a freedom of speech or freedom of expression argument.
They can't make that one because they're saying not only
this expression, but not that view, not that speech, only
that speech. So that's you know, that doesn't stack up.
But also to me, it just it just reveals again, Nick,
what the hell is this council focusing on. I mean,
(15:27):
we have a city, as you will know, that's that's dying,
and it's in a slow death. We've got shops closing,
we've got retail closing, restaurants closing. There's nothing happening here.
It feels like it's on life support and we're having
a conversation they're deciding. You know, the biggest thing they
have to do is say protect graffiti. That's pro Palestine graffiti.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
That's going to be on empty shops pretty soon.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Actually, there'll be more graffiti.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
That's why they can get away with it more than shops. Yeah,
I mean, Maddie, can I just quickly ask you it's
not on the topic list, but you're a young person,
go get her. I mean, does the city feel different
to when you arrived here? And what twenty and fifteen,
twenty sixteen, two thousand and seven, I'm guessing here when
you're arrived.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, no it does. And I'm not as doom and
gloom about Wellington as a lot of people are. There
are still plenty of bars and restaurants you cannot get
a table on right.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
If you'm up, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
This is a depressing place. If you're going to you're
going up with depressing people. Basically, you know, there is
still a lot of vibrancy in the city. I would
say that over the last year it has felt safer,
only just but look, as a young woman walking through
Manor Street, that's still a scary place just because of
the unpredictability of some of the people living and working
through their mental health challenges on our streets. So it's
(16:43):
changed for better and worse in different ways.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think the big thing's like when we're talking about
the government and Luxeon, you know, where's the vision, where's
the plan? And that's the problem with Wellington. I don't
see anybody coming up with the sort of vision. And
years ago I worked on the amalgamation campaign, Nick, do
you remember that.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
We need to do it again over yea?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And the plan of.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
That was really simple that you have Wellington Central. You
can't build anymore in Wellington Central, so you make it
hospit kind of you know, fun destination party place that
you go to. It's the government place, it's buzzing with
cafes and so on. And you make Patoni you know,
warehouse space, you make I don't know out in Patoni
back at Silicon Valley, you make company.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
The whole amalgamation thing needs to be detecting.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
You have a plan for the whole region where you
work out where you can grow and where the sector
should be.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Let's start with you on this one. Josie amidst the
controversy of a scale back Dunedin hospital rebuild, Health New
Zealand has floated the idea of a public private partnership
for hospital builds, or private companies building and owning hospitals
and leasing them back to the government. You even this
is a good idea.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Well, I'm in favor of publicly owned health and free
public health care where we can have it. We've got
a major problem though, I know, with with massive elderly
population growing and growing as we all get older, and
the pressure on the health system is massive. So I
think these sorts of ideas does to be looked at.
(18:08):
And I look, I remember when I was in the UK,
there was a health minister there, Alan Melbourne, who was
working for Tony Blair. So you know, Labor government came
up with this idea of foundation hospitals and it was
about he said, I don't care who owns the bricks
and mortar of the hospitals. I want the services to
be publicly owned and I want the services to be
free or cheap to people who need them. So that's
(18:30):
my bottom line. If you're this is a way of
being able to raise capital from the private sector to
build the hospitals, but the public services are still public.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Go for it, Maddie. Do you think people care the
public care? Who owns the actual hospital of jo just.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Ma is a great point. It's bricks and concrete. Who cares?
You know, most businesses don't own the building that they
operate in, so why should the government be any different?
And they've proven to us all in themselves time and
time again they're terrible at building things and they're terrible
at maintaining things. If the public are still showing up
to an ED and they're getting the service that they deserve,
and they're getting that service for free, I really don't
(19:05):
think it matters.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Yeah, the bottom line is if you believe in It's
like in England it's the NHS, the National Health Service. Here,
you know we have free hospital care for those who
need it. We've got massive waiting lists. My daughter was
on one for many months to try and get back surgery.
I want those waiting lists to go down. If it
means that the bricks and water are built by a
(19:27):
business that owns the building and leases it back to
the public sector, so be it. I want the waiting
liss down.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
We can't afford the capital investment that we need, let
alone want, in this country. So we do need to
start thinking about things differently and the public need to
be along for the ride in that.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
What do you think, Nick, I totally agree because you
know what happens is that you can ring up the
owner of the building and say hey, I've got a
leak here and it gets You don't have to ring
a hospital board and say, well have you applied on
the right figure? Is that part of your budget?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And this is what they do. You know, they build
and own and operate large scale infrastructure investments professionally and commercially.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
And the weird thing is that the hospital in New
Zealand medical community re s out hundreds of flaws of
buildings owned by private people because it's not according it's
no problem. We're in the Head Office of Health New Zealand,
We'll be in a rented space.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Look, we have we have to work out what is
the thing we're trying to protect and it's free health
or affordable health and it's reducing waiting lists. Those are
the outcomes we want. However we get there whatever the
tactic doesn't don't don't confuse tactics with outcomes.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I mean, does it skier? You both just really quickly
and this is not part of our discussion, but does
it quick scare you that? You know, the rates of
health insurance is just screamingly high. I mean, you know,
the numbers just keep going higher and higher, so people
people aren't using the public system anymore, They're just taking
their own health.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
And I'm terrified about the health system.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You have health insurance, no, No, I've never.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Had health insurance either. And I've had kids who needed
to be in hospital, either as kids or young adults now,
and you know, you kind of go, what I one
of one of ours send ups there and something in
the hospital, and you I really worry that those waiting
lists are so long you end up with young people
being addicted to painkillers, morphine, tramadol, whatever it is because
(21:12):
they can't yet get the surgery they need. I'm really
terrified about it.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, I'm terrified of not having health insurance, I mean
our health insurance insurance. Yeah, And it's like one thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
A month at least, that's exactly. And Southern Cross put
up some numbers this week. People are claiming on it
as well, they are really using their health insurance, which
means those premiums are only going to keep going up.
Thanks that you make sure you get your share of
the PITHN.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I'm happy pay it and stayed healthy.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
When I was young, it was just no one would
have thought to buy health insurance and it wasn't something
you could afford anyway.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Because we live in the country that looked after us.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
We've got a public health system that looks after us well.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
And it still looks after us, just not in a
timely fashion.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Which actually not looking at it.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The privilege, the privilege of our healthcare and New Zealands
that you don't have to wait. Stuff can just happen
for you.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
I want to talk about airport sale chairs well Intern
City Council make or broake vote as next thursday, whether
it sells, it's thirty four percent stake in Wellington Airport
will take place. It's actually next Thursday. This is such
a major thing for Warrington City Council. Josie. How important
is it for Tory FARO to win this vote and
(22:23):
what could actually happen if they don't when they have
to go back and start their ten year plan again.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, I think for the Tory is the man. I mean,
you think it's just been sort of failure after failure,
isn't it. So there's the reading cinema deal, which kind
of spectacularly exploded for them, and just this, you know,
the general kind of you know, one scandal after another
and you know what's been done, keep willing to moving.
It has to have stopped. So she does need a win.
(22:50):
And this was clearly you know, her sop to the
right of the council, the right wing members of the
Council to go right. You know, it's an olive branch.
I'll support you in the sale of the shares. I
mean my view, I think it's going to fail. So
it's going to be another thing we think it's going
to find it's going to fail. Yeah, looking at I mean,
I haven't done a great analysis of the numbers around
(23:11):
the council table.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
The numbers. It's going to fail, but we don't know
in the.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Day, so we don't know on the day, but it
looks like it will fail. And I think, look, you know,
I'm uncomfortable about something being something like a regional airport
that's so important to the country being one hundred percent
privately owned, and I think, you know, it's a bit
of a cash cow for the for the council. You know,
I don't want you know, it feels like sort of
more Wilson, you know now owns an airport. You know it
(23:35):
would be I'm so sick of one one parking building
in the city being Wilson.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
We just can't lie or to keep it though we
really catch You want them cash care, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
I do, but it's makes money.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
It's important that we have a diverse portfolio of investments.
And the council is so underinsured that the airport's under insured.
If there is a big seismic event here, you know,
we're on the We're on the leisure to fix that
one up as well. I agree Tory needs runs on
the board, but I don't think this is going to
be it either.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Can I tell you that, because when people bring that
that comment up and I don't have a I do
have opinion. I think of you in my life. You
don't sell anything unless you really need to, So assets
you don't sell unless you really need to. That's my mo.
But people talk about if a big earthquake came. Let
me tell you the first thing in christ Church that
got fixed when the earthquake happened. There was the airport
(24:26):
because you needed to get in and out. The government's
going to step straight in and sort that out really quickly.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
You know.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Interesting, Maddie said, You know, are the publicly owned the
public things infrastructure that you think should be publicly owned?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Or you?
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Or you?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
When there when there is a public good element At
the end of the day, we only own thirty four
percent of the airport right the rest of it's owned
by Yeah, and they make a massive profit off that.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
And if you are making that big of a profit,
well there's clearly more than just a public good element
to this.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Read the council makes profit too.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
The council makes a funny fit too. But you've got
two hundred and seventy eight million dollars tied up there.
I agree with you, Nick, You only sell assets when
you really need to, and we really need to at this.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Why don't they? Then? Why don't they we're having this conversation.
My thing is why don't they sell their social housing?
Because why do we have a government running social housing
and a local council running social so that's worth the
same amount of money. So you get rid of that
and give it all to the government.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Council is the second largest property owner in New Zealand,
behind Caring or the government.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yes, so if you're going to sell something you've got
an asset with they say that their they're public their
social housing portfolio is worth about the same, about four
hundred to a half a billion, right million time. That's
the same as what they say. I'm only giving the talks.
I don't know the figures. They haven't seen them. The
same as the sale of the airport. One makes them
a lot of money and one loses them a lot
(25:46):
of money.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
What would you sell, Oh, you'd sell the social housing portfolio. First,
it's it's decrepit.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
And it's not inconvenience anyone. They're still got places to
tell it.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
It's gone as an asset.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Well, the same as can be said about the airport.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
But it's not an asset because it's not making money.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
The social housing I agree.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
With social housing, I would look at at and again
it's a bit like the conversation had about hospitals. You
know who owns the bricks and watar doesn't matter as
long as you are providing social housing. So I would
and I would devolve to EWE Corporations, which in essence
is a privately owned body. But you know, EWE are
going to be better at running longing for EWI and
(26:26):
the same thing with you know, it could be habitat
for humanity. It could be the Sallies Salvation Army, who
do a lot of housing stuff. So I think creatively
big picture about that. But if you're looking at selling
the airport, and I do think it's a public good
in the sense that it's we cannot function as and
the city's you know, bugget already we can't function without
that regional airport working, and so it is something it
(26:47):
is a strategic asset for a snack.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Okay, I want to like keep working.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
It will keep working. It's got a private owner who's
incentivized to make it operates and make more of a place.
If I was a private owner, I go, right, you know,
lost leader, I'm walking away from that airport.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I mean, I can't know that happening, can you?
Speaker 4 (27:03):
But you want to guarantee that it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Right, Let's make let's lighten it up a little bit
before we go to hots and knots. Woolwors closing their
fresh fish counter, saying that consumers prefer the convenience of
price and price of prepackaged seafoodge Now, I came out
pretty strong on this, n I said, I don't actually
buy fresh from any supermarket, littlelone, prepackaged stuff that you
don't know how old is, Maddie? Start me up here,
where do you buy your fresh fish from?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Look, I'm going to show my privilege. My dad fishes
my fresh fish for me. But if I was going
to buy it, I certainly would not be getting it
out of you. To your point, Nick, a plastic package this.
I'm scared to see them go. How cool was the
muscle then when you were a kid at the supermarket?
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Well, if you ate muscles though cool if you didn't
eat must I don't like muscles, so didn't.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
But it's only Woolworths, isn't it. Let's still go to
pack and save and you can still go to a
New World and.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
You buy your fish.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
I don't actually pack and save. I reckon at a
new Will. It's quite a fast turnover, like they get
fresh fish quite a lot. But I would never buy.
I agree, Maddie, I would never buy my fish in
something that's been sealed with some glad wrap and sat
on a shelf, because it looks like it's been there
for ages. Whereas at least if you look at a fish,
you know, you go to the fish bar at the
supermarket and counter and you can see, okay, that salmon
(28:14):
looks that turkey looks fresh.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
So maybe you just bring your dad up and say, look,
I want some fish tonight, can you drop some more?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
He's just the best. And I think that I've seen
such a good fisherman live on air. It's going to
earn me, you know, endless brownie port.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
And I tell you where my husband is at the moment,
in the middle of the Indian Ocean, sailing from Bali
to South Africa via Madagascar. This is like two months
at sea with David Shearer, the former leader of the
Labor Party.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I just think it's probably how fresh the fish is
in our Supermarket's probably coming from David.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
And that means a new meeting from what is it,
distant relationship, don't they two months away?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I love them a lot lot more?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Do we always love our partners?
Speaker 4 (28:56):
It's like, yeah, you look so lovely from Afar.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Okay, take a short break and have hots and knots,
and hopefully it won't be a hot that your husband's
away for twos because said dad is my hot. I
know that where I'd be sleeping.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
I'm not going to say on the radio.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
No, that's for sure, the Friday face off hot.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
They're not Friday face off. Oh my gosh, I'm getting
a little bit of a hard time for my guests here,
Joseph Bagani and Maddie Burgess Smith. Joseh, you go first,
and hots and nots, and can you please be quick
so man, you can get hers of it.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Oh, this has gone on for fifteen years or something. Next,
isn't it nothing?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
You never listen to me.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
It will take as long as I want. No, very quickly,
min Not hot is a one that you'll all agree with.
I know, the fear that we're escalating in to a
sort of nineteen thirty eight moment, pre war moment. It
feels very volatile at the moment in the world. Stuff's
happening in the Middle East, as you know, and I've
been doing a bit of analysis of this. Nineteen thirty eight,
(29:54):
you know, you had various theaters of war that didn't
seem connected, and suddenly they were Japan, Germany, Abyssinia and
so on, and suddenly it all came together. I don't
think we're there yet, but it's a very scary time
in New Zealand needs be very careful how we monitor
our independent foreign policy so we don't get stuck and stuff.
My hot is this wonderful tongue and actor JP Folyiaki.
(30:16):
Do you know JP Falyiaki. He's now on Celebrity Treasure
Island and he's picked our charity ChildFund as his charity
and he's raising money for US for kids who don't
have access to water or good food or can't get
to school in the Outer Islands. And he's already raised
enough money to help about twenty five families in the
Outer Islands of Curribus and Solons. And he's a lovely actor.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
You should go on Celebrity Treasure Island. Neck.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I'm not a celebrity, and yes I'd love to, but
I was a celebrity made. Please give us your hots and.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Not yeah, well mine not hot is also kind of
flying related and gosh, I've had a pretty good week.
I think the worst thing that happened to me this
week is I didn't get my cup of tea or
bicky on my Air New Zealand flight. But a lot
of changes in the in the air New Zealand realm
at the moment. And you know, we talk about public
good and you know who should own what, But a
lot of cutting of flights happening at the moment to
different regional places, which is tough. They're a national carrier.
(31:05):
They're supposed to get U where we want to go
and they get text breaks And my that was my
not hot.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Sorry you keep should have been and my hot.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Daylight savings on all year round.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
It should be all year round.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
It it should be. It's good for your health, get
out for a walk, good for the we'll spend money
your bars, good for safety, list car accidents.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Hot today is you tube? Both of you? What a
great combination. Weren't it great to have a veteran and
a newcomer? Not saying that in a derogatory term, because
hell a lot older than you.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
You're the veteran. Where I go, God, all my friends
look really old, and then I go, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
I don't care so much. Maddy, and of course Josie
Pecanni Pagardian Co Six minutes to twelve. Thank you both
very much.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Thank you Nick.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on I Heard Radio
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If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com