It was round two of a war of words between Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Wellington mayor Tory Whanau this week – the PM criticised the council heavily appearing on Wellington Mornings. and Tory hit back by saying Luxon should focus on his own "chaotic coalition".
Is this the behaviour we expect from either of these leaders?
Also, there are potentially hundreds of kids in New Zealand born to overstaying parents who are in hiding.
In one case, a 19-year-old born in NZ to overstaying Indian parents has never had an education, hasn't seen a doctor since he was 10 and has been in hiding for nearly two decades - all because he was born here out of his control. Do we need to consider bringing back birthright citizenship?
To answer those questions, Nick was joined by broadcaster Mark Sainsbury and Iron Duke Partners director Phil O'Reilly.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said b Wellington's official week interview. It's
Friday face off with Quo Property Management, a better rental
experience for all visits.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Sticking with the Kiwi Music a bit of Jack's project.
We actually had them in the studio a few years ago.
They came in and played and they were amazing, amazing,
Key we talent were sticking with the Kiwi music Friday
face off. We have with us a couple of the
I suppose esteemed guests of the show, Steamed Steam. It's
(01:02):
Steam Steam. You're right, all right, Marc, you're the journalist.
Am I right with esteemed?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Esteemed? Quite right? Whether it's act.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
There's another question, Well I can't. I can't defend you
both on that one broadcast that Mark Sainsbury Good Morning Morning.
Now do you still get called to broadcast? Suppose you
are a broad Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, And in fact, I'm what I really would want
to do is because the whole medium's changed. Now I'm
going to get on a YouTube channel going on cars.
That's something that fell and I have a shed pen.
You you're a car, You're a vehicle.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I was up till about a year. I've had all
sorts of car. I've had, you know, every sort of
car you could have. But that was when I had money.
But now it's you know, I don't and I don't
have the cars. You know, you've got to have a
lot of money to have cars, you know, that's the
one thing. You've got to have a lot of money. Actually,
Actually to follow Riley by the way, ladies and gentlemen's
just going.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
To get mark. I What I do is I have
a little Instagram site. Yeah, it's got like one hundred
and forty followers or something. Yeah, and I just post
pictures of cars as I travel around the water around Zealand.
Never I knew one. Always an interesting car, you know,
like an interesting model or something could could be really boring.
I've put up a Viva on the site, you know,
and addressed all my mates, the cake bottle of Eaver,
the pool brown one, now those horrible brown ones that
(02:12):
came out in the seventies. Awful thing.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
So I actually I actually seen a Ford or one.
Have you seen a Ford door one?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
No?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
But it would be in my nightmares if I saw
a Ford.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It like a two door Marina. They used the front
doors off the four door car they didn't even have.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, yeah, I liked the Alberta because they had the
fat wheels on them when they first came out. Anyway,
we're digressing. I'm going to get I'm going to get
told off. I'm going to talk them. I want to
start Friday face off with a bit of a chat
because you may or may not know, but the Prime
Minister was an on Wednesday and we had a bit
of a chat. I wanted to chat to him about
(02:47):
things to do with Wellington. I didn't want to know
about you know, unemployment figures and inflation all that shit.
I wanted to know about Wellington phil and he gave
a pretty clear vision his view on Wellington. He loves
the city, but he thinks for stuff basically. Then Tory Farno,
Mayor of Wellington, came out that afternoon, Muhammad Ali style,
(03:09):
fully going and going crazy, saying we're getting beaten down.
What's right and what's wrong with both the mayor and
the Prime Minister being at loggerheads.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Well, it's not good, of course, and it's not good
for our city and it's not good for our country.
Beveryonne this is be going on a why. I remember
John Key once said Wellington was dying and they didn't
know what to do about it, and that got him
in a bit of trouble, got him in a bit
of hot water. But I think it's undeniable that Wellington's
in a bit of trouble. It's in a fragile say
right now, the city just talking to business people in
the last week or so. That's definitely the case. So
he said, it's not the first time the government said, gee,
(03:40):
what's Wellington about the problem is that I don't think
the current council is able to be dealt with. In
other words, even if the government came and said what
are we going to do about this, they'd white end it.
They'd say we don't want to do that because they're
in some sort of green nirvana right so that they're
totally different to the current government. So it doesn't surprise
me that the current mob was saying we can't deal
with you. And it's a bit unfortunate the primise and
(04:02):
then makes a bit of fun politically of it. But
what will change, I hope is October when we do
get a new mayor and let's say it's Andrew Little.
You watch the attitude change then, because I think the
government will then lean in because I think they can
deal with Andrew and I don't think they can deal
with Tory. That's a sad thing, but that's I think
with the reality.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
He did not the Prime Minister did not want to
give Mark Sainsbury any sort of push towards Andrew Little. Law. Now,
Chris Bishop had come out and said, I think it's
the right guy as an adult now in the room,
all the right saying all the right things, but the
Prime Minister did not give an inch.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well, given his attitude towards Wennington, he's probably wisest not to.
I mean, for Tory's point of view, she's got nothing
to lose, you absolutely nothing to lose, So of course
she's going to come back out as soon as you
know the PM makes any comments about Wellington, she's going
to come out swinging because she doesn't have to worry
about the relationship. She's going to be out of that
(04:56):
job in October. Whether she's back as a counselor as
another story, but she at this point nothing to lose,
says she's going to hammer them. I agree with Phil.
I mean, a dysfunctional relationship between central and local government
just does not work in anyone's interests. And I think
by and so, I think it's part of your fault, Nick,
because every time's been trouble over this has been on
(05:18):
your show, someer's come on your show and set this
thing going. So you've unleashed the dogs of hell.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well I'm just the voice of Wellington. I'm just asking
for people. I'm asking what people the messenger.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
And I mean, yeah, I mean I remember that John Keithing.
I mean that really grated. You know, Wellington's a dying city,
you know, because look, we all know the faults, but
we love our city, you know, despite it, and we
want to see it improve. And when you get the
feeling from central government they're writing us off or don't
give a toss, it's not a good place to be.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
No, Phil, I mean surely that you'd want the prime
ministers to say, look, whatever we can do. He didn't
want to take any responsibility. And I understand politically, why
about all the redundancies and stuff he didn't want to take.
He said, is no, the government don't share any of
the responsibility. It's you us, the people that voted that
council and it's their issue.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah, well there's something to that, of course. I mean
we get the council we deserve, and I think the
council over the last couple of years has done a
particularly poor job and standing up for Wellington and investing
in the city. Looking around, I think the city is
in a bad way right now. I'm one of those
who thinks it is a bit of a bit of
an emergency sue we need to get on with this.
So he's right about that, and of course he doesn't
want to in any way give any support at all
(06:35):
to the left side. So bear in mind Andrew little Well,
I've known for thirty years Andrey when he was a
union official and I was an employer advocate. We negotiated
way back when. I think he's a fantastic human being.
But at the end of the day, it's got the
big red l sitting right behind him. He's of the
labor guys, you know, And so the Prime Minister is
hardly likely to support that idea. And I think it
would be poor form anyway for the Prime Minister to
(06:56):
effectively endorse the candidate in any merialty race.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Question could be a bit more positive though, could agree
there's no positivity coming out of this sort of well
we'll leave it, but fault. You've dug your whole.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
But he's not rewarded for it. That's the problem, right
If he was positive Tory going, that's great, just invest
in the Golden Mile, Prime minis and we're all happy.
And then she beat him and then she said nasty
things about him the next thing anyway, so there's nothing
in it for him either.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
So the whole city is on hold until October exactly,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
We can't afford to be ill.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
I totally agree that. But I mean that's that's that's
the situational in and you've always got. I mean, it's
that ongoing problem you've got between local government and central government.
I mean you look at all the infrastructure issues we
got here in Wellington.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
We're not going to be of to solve no sooner.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
So there has to be and the sooner that gets
going the better.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Right now, now, I want to come back to you
on the Andrew little thing, because you're the first person
that I've spoken to that I think's neutral, that has
known him for a long time. My issue as a
Wellingtonian and as a talkback host, is that I think
what I call bullshit Castle Wellington City Council needs to
(08:02):
slash and burn. We know that we've spent fifty million
dollars more than five years ago on wages. Can he
is it possible for that big l and union man
to go in there and slash?
Speaker 4 (08:16):
He held downsize slash is a different sort of thought,
but well, it needs to be slash just in chatting
to it. Well, the thing about slashing is it's a
big public You pull out the sword and you go right,
you're off off of your head. There's ways of downsizing
that are slightly less kind of violent than that and
slightly less politicized than that, and he can probably do
some of that. But in talking to him just a
few days ago, he's most unhappy about the fact we
(08:37):
wasted throw undred fifty million dollars on a town hall
that's not it's not even a it doesn't have any
historic or architectural merit as it turns out, So he's
most upset about that. He's most upset about about some
of the waste that he's seeing in council spending and
the lack of communication and listening to voices like the
business community. So in that context you've got to think, well,
if part of the view of the business community is,
(08:58):
and it will be, rates are just skyrocketing and we're
getting nothing back for it as a business community.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Nothing.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
In fact, the city's changing to not not in business
inter sexually. So if he's prepared to listen to that,
then then I think he's up for something. Will he
do everything we want? Of course not, but no, Mayor
every shit? But you you feel confident that.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I mean, I'm not asking you to publicly and awesome,
I'm just asking you if you think, as a well
Tonian that's paying a hell of a lot of rates,
that you would feel comfortable with him as mayor.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Yep, And I thought Nick.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
He was asked right at the start when he threw
his hat in the ring about that would it be
willing to sort of cut and he said, yes, it
would be, you know, the sort of said you're a
union guy, all this, you won't be a yeah. Will
you'll never fire anyone at sex? He said no, If
if things need to happen, he is not beyond doing that.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
And I've known it for thirty years. As I say,
since I was minus ten, you know, because I'm a
young man. And and what I know about him is
he listens very carefully, straight up. If he's going to
disagree with you, I'll tell you, and and takes takes
it on board and acts and acts in accordance with
that view. But not he's his own man, of course,
but listens carefully.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, I've had a lot of dealings, you'll know. The
thing that I one thing I do like about him
is that quite often he'll put principle before politics. I
remember when he was Justice minister, he was talking about, look,
we've got to change the way we deal with prisons
and prisoners and that whole sort of like mentality. And
remember saying to me, look, the problem is politically this
is a loser. You know, there's no benefit to it.
Takes years for the results to come through, but I
(10:23):
really believe it's important. I'm going to do it. Well.
Then he got plucked out of there and put into
health and we never saw those but I like the attitude.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Do you feel confident that he might be the guy
that take us Mark? I mean, I mean, I know
we're off topic because when we were talking about the
Prime well, the Prime Minister deal with him is probably
the question.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Well of the year, because they you know, they understand
the language, and they understand each other and understand the process.
So I think, in fact, probably probably in some ways
Andrew more than Christopher.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So look, I think that's the reason you and I
aren't standing. There isn't it.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Well, I know the reason I'm not standing. I can't
talk for you. I know I'm not bright enough.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
The challenge I think for Andrew, if he does get in,
will be to actually be brave and bold because he's
naturally a cautiou sort of guy. Would that's fair enough,
That's that's a that's rewarded and politics that But will
he be bold and that's the that's a challenge, and
i'd certainly challenge them on that. I have challenged him
on that. And some of that challenge might be about size,
accouncil rates, rises and so on. So let's see what
(11:18):
let's let's take place. You see, I have only I've
only met him a couple of times, and I like him.
I've got no issue with him, and he and he
listens what you like.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
You're right, you're right, But I want someone a little
bit more exciting. I'm sorry, you know, I mean, I
mean that it shouldn't be a negative. He's just not
an exciting guy.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Yeah, when I was talking to him about the fact
that that the last time we had a great meal
like that was Mark Blumsky saw which logan that Mark,
but the city was booming. But he was a cheerleader.
But that's because, as I said, Andrew, he unleashed the private,
didn't allow the private unleashed it. And I remember mate
of mine flying across to Wellington for the weekend from
Sydney because Wellington was the Australasia party town.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
And Simmons they come from all over the world.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
So that's that's the opportunity. If he's bold and he
unleashes the business community, and I think he maybe he's
got it.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Okay, still don't you haven't sort of got me too
confident about the excitement part Friday face off with Phil
O'Reilly and Mark Sainsbury. This morning, we talked about the
Hut City Council is under fire for keeping information about
a crypto outbreak from the public. The council was told
by a family that their children had got sick after
swimming in a council run Toddlers Paul on March the fourth,
(12:26):
but took till March twenty first before the council told
the public. Actually the same day that they got approached
by some media chasing the story down. Now, you may
or not both surprise, you may or may not be aware.
But there's been nearly one hundred crypto cases around and
it's been pretty horrific in it. And basically what happened, Philip,
(12:47):
I'll start with you. The council decided to withhold information
to prevent undue undue alarm. Now that infuriates me.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
I agree. And what that's about is a bureaucrat. I
don't know these people, but it sort of screams out
to me, a bureaucrat playing a bureaucratic process. I've ticked
this box. The risk is this where you can make
a public stament this timeh No, there's some kids getting sick.
In other words, are we standing in a circle in
the council officers looking at each other? So what do
we do? What do we do? What do we do?
And there's no we just talked about this adult in
(13:16):
the room to say, hang on a second, all those
processes and bureaucratic things are all fine, there's some kids
getting sick. We should take taketion about this. And at
the very least I understand from the article they should
draining the pool and refilling it wll to solve the problem.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, get on and do that.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Yeah, just how high can this be?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
But even just informing people pipe I said, put a
little A four sign on the door saying, hey, there's
been a couple of cays the crypto. Let's be a
bit smart about this. We had a lady ring up
that looks looks after healthcare people and they took a
person then swim in there and they had five hours
later they had an ambulance and he was on fe consent.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Let people know that there's some issues done that they
can make their own decisions. The other thing is they
keep saying this can last in the water for up
to twelve days, and it doesn't make sense that are
reading will hold off and see who you don't we
don't want to cause undue alarmed. Well we'll tell you
what causes undue alarm. This is what you know when
people pointed as their kids sort of vomiting into their
hands all night, you know, it's it looks a classic
(14:12):
just trying to hose down avoid any sort of public
sort of you know, approbrium or it might get some blame,
and it's just a cluster.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Why do we have people in the councils that's job
is to advise us and they don't advise us.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
It's because they're because they're classic bureau As soon as
I say I don't want to criticize this particular indig
or maybe there's a brilliant reason why those decisions were made,
but a bureauer as someone who, in the worst sort
of sense, somebody who just follows the rules without thinking, actually,
you know, the reason we do this is because we're
elected by the public. They elected us, and they pay
rates and we're in their service. And I think far
(14:47):
too offen people sitting in offices who don't understand that,
don't take into account of that. They kind of lose
that that truth that this is all about someone other
than them. And so that's when you get these kinds
of things happening as opposed to this is just not right.
We should do something about this.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
See, I kind of little bit disagree with you. I
don't think there is an excuse for it. I really
do not think you know, you'll explain. Yeah, you know,
but you were saying that you don't know what happened
in this particular. There's no particular here, you know, mark
is there, there is you know there. They've had letters
telling people because you know, they've got the science telling
them there's a problem here. Hey, let people know.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
First report you get, you should be checking out saying, look,
this is connected to us. Is that what's happening here?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Do we?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Well it was they had that and so yeah, but
I'm saying, okay, that's your first report. You can understand. Look,
we might just you know, there's no point shutting down
the whole thing and causing a panic. It may not
be us. We're going to check this, but you look
at all the successful things that have happened. Now you're
getting floated around, and this whole thing we don'tant to
cause undue alarm.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
It's just nuts. Yeah, And as a result of course,
public faith in that's whoming pool will be gone for
a long time now. They'll be scared about it.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And it's a brand new, beautiful facility and it shouldn't
be like that if they've actually done the things right,
everyone would have said, there's good bit of a problem.
We sorted out. Yeah, because next day we're opening. The
way we go again is pretty simple. I want to
talk to you about a story that we did during
the week, because that's what we're here for. This potentially
hundreds of kids in New Zealand that are born to
overstaying parents who are in hiding. This one case that
(16:14):
we talked about was a nineteen year old who was
born in New Zealand to overstaying Indian parents. He had
never had any education. His father was kicked out three
days after he was born. Right, He's never had any education,
hasn't seen a doctor since his ten and has been
in hiding for nearly two years. Mark Sainsbury, did you
know that if you were born in New Zealand you
don't actually have the citizenship? Do you know that? Remember
(16:37):
Helen Clark actually changed the law.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Look, I shouldn't know because I was there. I was
there at the time, but as soon as I saw it,
immediately thinking about Trump and what's happening in the US
and the whole birthright sort of situation there, And to
be honest, I thought I presumed that if you were
born here, you would have an automatic right to you know,
citizenship would be here. I didn't realize that. I mean,
(17:00):
obviously it has changed.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, two thousand and six Helen Clark changed the law
because of the Tampa Bay stuff. Do you remember it now? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
so she changed it. But you know, Australia has it,
America we're talking about Donald drub America has it, but
we don't have it here. So this poor kids and
hiding is that?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Phil?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Can you tell me? Explain that to me.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
I can see, I can see the logic of not
giving you automatic citizenship, right. So the reason is that,
you know, you've got a person who wants to who
wants to come to New Zealand, they arrive on a
plane heavily pregnant, have the baby here, and then claim
the claim they've got to stay. You can see how
that could be. That's a pretty small problem, to be fair,
because that's that's that's going to be a pretty rare thing.
But you can see in some circumstances why that might
(17:41):
be the case. You can probably be dealt with by
by by exception rather than the rule. But it's absolutely tragedy,
isn't it That this young boy and there may be
others like him, There must be others like him, effectively
in the deepest, darkest sort of despair, and I can't.
When I read the story, I was incredibly surprised. Does
this happen in our country?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
And what's and what's going to happen as the parents
get older? They got somebody's undocumented, you've got no education,
you're not going to be supporting yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I mean it's well, he's got no passport. No, you know,
he's got a passport for India or New Zealand. You
know he's stuffed.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Well, of course, that's that's why. Once you go back
to this point, I just manguly on the bureaucrats who
are sitting in a circle looking at each other wondering
if for far of the rules, you're just going to
put the rule book away for that kind of circumstances,
say look, you're in New Zealand. Welcome to New Zealand.
We're going to give you an education, give your health care,
make sure you're okay. Because I think every single New Zealander, anybody,
just the sho would say, well, of course that's what
you do. You don't say, well, you're stateless, so go away.
(18:36):
That's not the case. This could, this could We should
look after this kid.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
The thing that got me too, Nick, You think about
the fear these people must be living in so seem
to get them going to sort of doctors or to
get involved with the system. In any case, what sort
of terror are you living hunder?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Is this our country?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And Phillow Riley, your reaction was exactly by a reaction
when Ethan gave me the story. I went, no, this can'ty.
You did exactly the same description and mark you the same.
This is not New Zealand that we know. We bring
in you know, we bring in people. All millions of
people come in to New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
And we look after them. And although we don't give
that automatic citizenship right, we do give them a lot
of things quite quickly that other countries don't give them.
We give them a right to vote quite quickly. They've
got access to welfare, I think day one they ar
A lot of countries don't do that, including Australia by
the way. So in fact, we do look after people
who migrate here permanently and lawfully. But there is something
(19:31):
deeply wrong with our system where to Mark's point where
that fear, there's so much fear that you've got a
kid living in those kinds of circumstances. That's, by the way.
The local community should have done something about that too,
you know, people would have known about that and nothing
was done. So I think it's a a pox on
all houses of this one.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, and New Zealand Friday face off with Mark Sainsbury
and fill O'Reilly. Well, it's exactly halfway through the parliamentary term.
The big news this week is tomorrow we change our
deputy Prime Minister. David Seymour takes on the job. Mark Sainsbury,
what have you made of the government of the last
eighteen months? What have you made as Winston Peters as
(20:09):
definitely PM, and oh my god, it's going to change.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
It's certainly, it's certainly as well. Look you know Winston
of course it wasn't their talk. There has been and
it's still going on. People can say he's going to
bring the whole house down. He's had his half term
as P as Deputy PM. Is it going to last
out the second half? I think he's actually i mean
foreign and is a good fit for Winston? You know, no,
matter what people know, I'm not been thinking. I mean,
I'm phil and I would knowing Winston for god knows
(20:35):
how long if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.
But look that that's that, that's been, that's been, that's
been a really good fit. I can't wait to see
what happens once Seymour takes over. But Seymour will not
be able to help himself. He'll be bontificating and all
sorts of stuff, whether it fits him with the government
policy or not. And Winston will be there ready to
take a pot shut of him for doing so, you know,
(20:55):
I think and and given that, I'm just trying to
find the right word to describe Christopher Luxon. He's just
sort of a bit that sort of laid back, sort
of too cool for school sort of thing. Meanwhile, all
this chaos could be going around them. Look, I think
it's going to be I'm really look as an observer,
I'm looking forward to it. Whether it's going to be
good for the country or not, I'm not one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I mean, do you think that when Saint Peters did well?
I think he did it.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I think he did No. Look, I think in what
he was what he was tasked with doing, and as
I said, that was that was a good fit for him.
And when you look at the government, I mean there's
a few, there's a handful of really competent people at
the top of the cabinet and then you start gets
a bit shaky then on down. I mean I remember
on budget day someone was saying to me that they thought, oh,
(21:39):
I know, you know, they thought Nikola hadn't done particularly
well and there'd be moves to try and roll her.
It's a but then the first question is, I mean,
irrespective whether you think that's right or not, who would
they replace her with?
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Well, it's any governments like that. Any government's got about
four or five really good counter ministers. Yeah, and they've
got about another four or five who are possible on
what I call mechanics. They're good. They're good, but then
always going to be like that, and then the rest
are kind of a bit sketchy. It's the same. I've
never known a government where there was a cabinet of
twenty outstanding ministers. It just doesn't work like that. So
(22:13):
they're a bit the same. But I agree that I
think Winston has done and absolutely stand our job, especially
his Minister of Foreign Affairs. And I say this to a
few audiences. Actually, I can't think. I can't think of
a better Minister of Foreign Affairs than him for what
we're facing right now, this kind of difficult time geopolitically,
very unstable time. He's been around the traps, he knows
(22:34):
what's going on, he knows all the actors. He's and
I've seen him actually operate in some of those some
of those circles and theaters are offshore, and he does
a really great job. And it's Deputy Prime Minister. I
think he's done. I also think he's done quite a
good job because he has kept things together. He's kept
it reasonably sensible. Bear in mind, this government is working
off the Colorition agreements, right, so everybody's forgotten about those,
unless she's still sitting there pinned up on people's walls.
(22:56):
We still know about them, of course in our business.
And so they're working through those things and using it.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
That's a word of compromise.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
That's right, and that's what was That was the compromise
at the start. That's what they're now walking through. It'll
get a bit bumpy anyway, in the next eightia months
because of course Winston having had the first time as
deputy that unleashes him a bit to become more than
New Zealand first leader coming into the election, So he'll
do that. And they're already starting to wind themselves.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Up exactly what Semur is to him, Yeah, bit of that.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah. And Seymour, of course, will will want to maintain
the rage because he makes votes out of some of this,
some of the race based stuff and some of the
privileged stuff. So he's going to talk to his audiences.
It'll look a bit untidy, but at the end of
the day, they still going to get through. They're still
going to get through that coalition agreement. So tell me
what you think will happen over the next dadium. Do
you think that Seymour will try and Puff's chiefs. He
(23:43):
loves Puffy because he needs to. Of course that they've
all realized now in MMP that the Little Party loses
unless the Little Party maintains a bit of the rage, right,
which is what he's doing now. He doesn't in a
particular way that sometimes I find extraordinary, but that's what
he's doing. And same with Winston. Right, they've got they've
got to keep their the rage up a bit, and
some of the rage is deeply uncomfortable. Of course, to
(24:03):
Luxom this is not as interested to do so. But
welcome to Pea podics the other.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Series to the other curious thing is listening to Winston
the other day ruling out labor.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Oh well, that.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Almost rules out him throwing as toys the out of
the cot. Well this, you can't bring down this coalition
when he's got nowhere else to go.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Friday face off of Mark Sainsbury and fill o'reiley. I
really want to talk to you guys about the wage
bill at Wellington City Council. I know we briefly talked
about it, but let's I'll give you some facts to
probably make it a little bit more interesting. Wellington City
Council's wage bill has gone up forty percent since two thousand,
so forty percent in five years, despite cutting more than
one hundred staff since twenty twenty. Sorry what I say,
(24:40):
despite cutting more than one hundred staff. Meanwhile, the number
of staff earning more than two hundred thousand a year
has more than doubled from seventeen to thirty nine. Now
this comes as the time Wellington Wellingtonian is all of
us face rate rises of at least twelve percent. We
haven't got the final amount, but at least twelve percent.
(25:00):
I mean, Phil, when you read stats like that, what
does that tell you?
Speaker 4 (25:04):
What's outrageous? I mean, it just demonstrates that they're out
to lunch. It demonstrates that they don't really have the
interests of the public at heart. They're all sitting and
they're paying themselves a lot of money. And I say
that that's as you know, I'm generally a reasonable person.
That's an unreasonable outcome. That demonstrates that someone is just
poking the bar acts frankly, and so whatever the new
arrangements are of the new CEOs there and he's underway effectively,
(25:27):
hope he is, and a new mayor. I've just got
to get on top of that because you can't say
to the public we're going to bang the rates up
and you're see anything Ford exception and highly paid people
buying lartes that's just not available to them, I don't think.
And it's a point I make to people. If you
keep on banging the rates up and the business community
has this too big rates differential, see it, if you
keep on banging the rates up and there's nothing to
see for it. Then they'll just disinvest. I'll just go
(25:49):
somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Why do we as why do we as business people?
I'm going to go to market one second? Why do
we put up with the rates being so much different
for business people than for residential It's not anywhere else
in the country.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
It's terrible and we challenged it for years at Business
Us in it as well. It's just outrageous. There's no
particular thing that businesses get out of the council. They're
just The reason councilors have rates differentials for businesses is
that they can because the other punters that have one
hundred votes and the business guy's got one vote. That's
why it's a completely cynical thing. Now if they could
demonstrate that actually it's worth it to charge extra and
(26:22):
sometimes they can then go for your life and charge it.
But the short point is the businesses do react to this.
Of course, Nick that you just don't see it. They
don't invest, they close, they invest somewhere else, they go
put their money into Auckland or in Australia. So actually
businesses do react to those things. They just don't make
it public. So and that's no doubt already happening in
the city. It just needs to be sorted out.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Mark Sainsbury two hundred thousand dollars a year, I mean
that's a lot of money. And to have thirty nine
people in that, you know, that's count I mean in
my day, that's council workers getting two hundred grand. I
mean that's that.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I was trying to film or have a better take
on this. If the council is compared to an ordinary business,
would you get the same level of executives on two.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Well, they are a billion dollar company.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
No, No, You've got to bear that in mind. And
I thought also to be fair, like they talked about
all these infrastructure projects and different things that doing. You
know that that three hundred and fifty million dollar town
all and the consultants that need to bring in. But
it would seem the consultants bill it's totally separate. And
that's gone up as well. So you've still got more
than doubling the number of people paid over and look,
and I'm not being saying, oh the Grench, no one
(27:27):
should get over ten hundred thousand or anything like that.
You know, there's a competitive market out there, But how
does that more than double in four years?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
It's ridicul And I don't care what anyone says. I mean,
I'm pretty liberal and open minded. Two hundred grand a
year is a decent salary, is yeah, you know, I
mean there's you know, it'd be less than one percent
of New Zealanders getting that. I would say, now that
i'm quoting, I'm quoting that out of my backside, but
I think i'd be right right. You'd have a better idea.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Pretty small number. To Mark's point, there may be private
sector companies that have lots of highly paid people and
that's their call, and but we don't have to deal
with them. We have to deal with the council. There's
no choice about it.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Can I remind you just quickly as you get on
your rave that they have generate something, David, They don't
have to sit there and just sit down another bill.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
And I think most welling Toonians would say, and for
all of that, are we getting an outstanding council just
doing great things around the city. I'm sorry, no, we're not.
So you know, if you're going to do all he's thinking, so, oh, well,
we're in the market and all that. Well, Okay, be
confident like the market is, and they're clearly not.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
No, and business people and the public, no one's feeling comfortable.
No one's feeling confident.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
The Friday facie hot.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Okay, fellow Riley, you got plenty of time. What are
your hots and knots? What's upsetting you and what are
you actually pleased with?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Well, my hot is actually not a willing story, but
it's a it's a great story that will be taking
place in one and two hopefully. Just yesterday I was
at a big printing company called Bluestart. They've got an
operation in Patoni, but this is the big one in Auckland.
I helped them out. I work with them a bit.
Just just a full disclosure. They opened a brand new
printing hall, a big bit of kit ten million dollar
printing press, a packaging press and so on, cutting equipment,
(29:05):
cutting and binding and blue equipment was opened yesterday by
the Prime Minister. A huge investment made by a private
company not listed bluester and a big voter confidence in
the future of the New Zealand economy. And it was
I was just so proud that I could see a
company doing that actually investing in New Zealand, investing in
new new equipment and new product. That it's what. Of
course the government was over the moon about it, of course,
(29:26):
because it's exactly what the government wants. So this is
all before the Well they get appreciated, No they won't know,
because no money has made. But companies like that continue
to invest anyway, and that.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Can I just start to give a bluester that used
to be government print.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
It did bits of it. Yeah, it's had a long history,
but it's you know, it's people say print is dying.
No it's not. Actually that kind of print is not.
Books and magazines and stuff are dying, but not that
kind of stuff, which is boxes and displays and so on.
So I thought, well, wonderful. I thought I'd come along
today and talk about it, because anybody doing that in
the current environment, celebrate them. You've done the same with
(29:57):
your restaurant, of course in in Courtney place, but you know,
just just taking it, taking a gamble with taking your
risk its service. Here they've obviously had a lot of
analysis on it, but they still had to spend the day.
And good for them. So that's the hot good for
the very good hot. Second that they are not is
Wellington Council Council laws who have come out just on
the last day or so celebrating the fact that we
(30:18):
didn't sell the airport shares because the shares have gone up,
and they must be that was a great decision to
make because the shares have gone up, and I just think,
oh my god, do we have any financial literacy at
all around the Wellington Council table. So you've continued to
double down on an investment that's already a high risk
in the same city as you are. If there's an
earthquake in the next ten minutes, that big investment that
(30:40):
you made, that successful investment, will be worth nothing much
as a matter of fact. And you haven't thought about
diversifying your risk, you haven't thought about paying back debt
that you otherwise could have and you're now going to
celebrate the silly decision you made because the shares have
gone up. But you just hold your head at that
kind of level of financial illiteracy.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Okay, we disagree on that as well, but we'll talk
about that after the show. Mark Sainsbury, you're hot not okay,
Fell's take it up all your right.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Not the Greyhound industry, you know, and it's funny all
these stories to come back to Winston Peters. Winston Peters's
racing minister looked at it and said, no, it's too bad.
There's too much abuse this.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
It's just it.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Cannot be saved. It's gone, you know, phasing it out.
And there's now in our last at Chiffort from the
Greyhanded in the street each other and so no, no,
people misunderstand us. And I'm certain there are people within
the Greyhanders who love their dogs and are kind and caring,
but there's too much until we know this cross got on.
So why they're having a last at chef for to
save it is just not hot as far as I'm concerned.
(31:34):
But what is hot is the day's the thirtieth of
May in the par where Winston Peters there is still
deputy Prime Minister. Is it's the twenty ninth to May,
which is the day that Winston Peter's the day that
ed Hillary set foot on the top of Mount he Forrest. Yes,
twenty ninth to May nineteen fifty three was the day.
And that is over there. It's a twenty ninth for me,
someone's around us time amazing amazing achievement, and he set
(31:56):
up the Himalayan Trust, and that trust is now run
by his grandson Alexander Hillary and thus still keeping it going.
Was the one thing he said this to me personally,
did the one thing I want. I don't want statues,
I don't want memorial I want them. All I want
is my work to keep going. And they're carrying the torch.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
So good on, Madam Milantrs Right. Thank you both very much.
I've got to go follow Riley Mark Sainsbury. Thank you
very much for taking time out of your busy schedules.
Wonderful have you in the studio and your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said b Wellington's official week interview. It's
Friday face off with Quo Property Management, a better rental
experience for all visits.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Sticking with the Kiwi Music a bit of Jack's project.
We actually had them in the studio a few years ago.
They came in and played and they were amazing, amazing,
Key we talent were sticking with the Kiwi music Friday
face off. We have with us a couple of the
I suppose esteemed guests of the show, Steamed Steam. It's
(01:02):
Steam Steam. You're right, all right, Marc, you're the journalist.
Am I right with esteemed?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Esteemed? Quite right? Whether it's act.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
There's another question, Well I can't. I can't defend you
both on that one broadcast that Mark Sainsbury Good Morning Morning.
Now do you still get called to broadcast? Suppose you
are a broad Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, And in fact, I'm what I really would want
to do is because the whole medium's changed. Now I'm
going to get on a YouTube channel going on cars.
That's something that fell and I have a shed pen.
You you're a car, You're a vehicle.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I was up till about a year. I've had all
sorts of car. I've had, you know, every sort of
car you could have. But that was when I had money.
But now it's you know, I don't and I don't
have the cars. You know, you've got to have a
lot of money to have cars, you know, that's the
one thing. You've got to have a lot of money. Actually,
Actually to follow Riley by the way, ladies and gentlemen's
just going.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
To get mark. I What I do is I have
a little Instagram site. Yeah, it's got like one hundred
and forty followers or something. Yeah, and I just post
pictures of cars as I travel around the water around Zealand.
Never I knew one. Always an interesting car, you know,
like an interesting model or something could could be really boring.
I've put up a Viva on the site, you know,
and addressed all my mates, the cake bottle of Eaver,
the pool brown one, now those horrible brown ones that
(02:12):
came out in the seventies. Awful thing.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
So I actually I actually seen a Ford or one.
Have you seen a Ford door one?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
No?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
But it would be in my nightmares if I saw
a Ford.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It like a two door Marina. They used the front
doors off the four door car they didn't even have.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, yeah, I liked the Alberta because they had the
fat wheels on them when they first came out. Anyway,
we're digressing. I'm going to get I'm going to get
told off. I'm going to talk them. I want to
start Friday face off with a bit of a chat
because you may or may not know, but the Prime
Minister was an on Wednesday and we had a bit
of a chat. I wanted to chat to him about
(02:47):
things to do with Wellington. I didn't want to know
about you know, unemployment figures and inflation all that shit.
I wanted to know about Wellington phil and he gave
a pretty clear vision his view on Wellington. He loves
the city, but he thinks for stuff basically. Then Tory Farno,
Mayor of Wellington, came out that afternoon, Muhammad Ali style,
(03:09):
fully going and going crazy, saying we're getting beaten down.
What's right and what's wrong with both the mayor and
the Prime Minister being at loggerheads.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Well, it's not good, of course, and it's not good
for our city and it's not good for our country.
Beveryonne this is be going on a why. I remember
John Key once said Wellington was dying and they didn't
know what to do about it, and that got him
in a bit of trouble, got him in a bit
of hot water. But I think it's undeniable that Wellington's
in a bit of trouble. It's in a fragile say
right now, the city just talking to business people in
the last week or so. That's definitely the case. So
he said, it's not the first time the government said, gee,
(03:40):
what's Wellington about the problem is that I don't think
the current council is able to be dealt with. In
other words, even if the government came and said what
are we going to do about this, they'd white end it.
They'd say we don't want to do that because they're
in some sort of green nirvana right so that they're
totally different to the current government. So it doesn't surprise
me that the current mob was saying we can't deal
with you. And it's a bit unfortunate the primise and
(04:02):
then makes a bit of fun politically of it. But
what will change, I hope is October when we do
get a new mayor and let's say it's Andrew Little.
You watch the attitude change then, because I think the
government will then lean in because I think they can
deal with Andrew and I don't think they can deal
with Tory. That's a sad thing, but that's I think
with the reality.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
He did not the Prime Minister did not want to
give Mark Sainsbury any sort of push towards Andrew Little. Law. Now,
Chris Bishop had come out and said, I think it's
the right guy as an adult now in the room,
all the right saying all the right things, but the
Prime Minister did not give an inch.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well, given his attitude towards Wennington, he's probably wisest not to.
I mean, for Tory's point of view, she's got nothing
to lose, you absolutely nothing to lose, So of course
she's going to come back out as soon as you
know the PM makes any comments about Wellington, she's going
to come out swinging because she doesn't have to worry
about the relationship. She's going to be out of that
(04:56):
job in October. Whether she's back as a counselor as
another story, but she at this point nothing to lose,
says she's going to hammer them. I agree with Phil.
I mean, a dysfunctional relationship between central and local government
just does not work in anyone's interests. And I think
by and so, I think it's part of your fault, Nick,
because every time's been trouble over this has been on
(05:18):
your show, someer's come on your show and set this
thing going. So you've unleashed the dogs of hell.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well I'm just the voice of Wellington. I'm just asking
for people. I'm asking what people the messenger.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
And I mean, yeah, I mean I remember that John Keithing.
I mean that really grated. You know, Wellington's a dying city,
you know, because look, we all know the faults, but
we love our city, you know, despite it, and we
want to see it improve. And when you get the
feeling from central government they're writing us off or don't
give a toss, it's not a good place to be.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
No, Phil, I mean surely that you'd want the prime
ministers to say, look, whatever we can do. He didn't
want to take any responsibility. And I understand politically, why
about all the redundancies and stuff he didn't want to take.
He said, is no, the government don't share any of
the responsibility. It's you us, the people that voted that
council and it's their issue.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah, well there's something to that, of course. I mean
we get the council we deserve, and I think the
council over the last couple of years has done a
particularly poor job and standing up for Wellington and investing
in the city. Looking around, I think the city is
in a bad way right now. I'm one of those
who thinks it is a bit of a bit of
an emergency sue we need to get on with this.
So he's right about that, and of course he doesn't
want to in any way give any support at all
(06:35):
to the left side. So bear in mind Andrew little Well,
I've known for thirty years Andrey when he was a
union official and I was an employer advocate. We negotiated
way back when. I think he's a fantastic human being.
But at the end of the day, it's got the
big red l sitting right behind him. He's of the
labor guys, you know, And so the Prime Minister is
hardly likely to support that idea. And I think it
would be poor form anyway for the Prime Minister to
(06:56):
effectively endorse the candidate in any merialty race.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Question could be a bit more positive though, could agree
there's no positivity coming out of this sort of well
we'll leave it, but fault. You've dug your whole.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
But he's not rewarded for it. That's the problem, right
If he was positive Tory going, that's great, just invest
in the Golden Mile, Prime minis and we're all happy.
And then she beat him and then she said nasty
things about him the next thing anyway, so there's nothing
in it for him either.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
So the whole city is on hold until October exactly,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
We can't afford to be ill.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
I totally agree that. But I mean that's that's that's
the situational in and you've always got. I mean, it's
that ongoing problem you've got between local government and central government.
I mean you look at all the infrastructure issues we
got here in Wellington.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
We're not going to be of to solve no sooner.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
So there has to be and the sooner that gets
going the better.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Right now, now, I want to come back to you
on the Andrew little thing, because you're the first person
that I've spoken to that I think's neutral, that has
known him for a long time. My issue as a
Wellingtonian and as a talkback host, is that I think
what I call bullshit Castle Wellington City Council needs to
(08:02):
slash and burn. We know that we've spent fifty million
dollars more than five years ago on wages. Can he
is it possible for that big l and union man
to go in there and slash?
Speaker 4 (08:16):
He held downsize slash is a different sort of thought,
but well, it needs to be slash just in chatting
to it. Well, the thing about slashing is it's a
big public You pull out the sword and you go right,
you're off off of your head. There's ways of downsizing
that are slightly less kind of violent than that and
slightly less politicized than that, and he can probably do
some of that. But in talking to him just a
few days ago, he's most unhappy about the fact we
(08:37):
wasted throw undred fifty million dollars on a town hall
that's not it's not even a it doesn't have any
historic or architectural merit as it turns out, So he's
most upset about that. He's most upset about about some
of the waste that he's seeing in council spending and
the lack of communication and listening to voices like the
business community. So in that context you've got to think, well,
if part of the view of the business community is,
(08:58):
and it will be, rates are just skyrocketing and we're
getting nothing back for it as a business community.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Nothing.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
In fact, the city's changing to not not in business
inter sexually. So if he's prepared to listen to that,
then then I think he's up for something. Will he
do everything we want? Of course not, but no, Mayor
every shit? But you you feel confident that.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I mean, I'm not asking you to publicly and awesome,
I'm just asking you if you think, as a well
Tonian that's paying a hell of a lot of rates,
that you would feel comfortable with him as mayor.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Yep, And I thought Nick.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
He was asked right at the start when he threw
his hat in the ring about that would it be
willing to sort of cut and he said, yes, it
would be, you know, the sort of said you're a
union guy, all this, you won't be a yeah. Will
you'll never fire anyone at sex? He said no, If
if things need to happen, he is not beyond doing that.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
And I've known it for thirty years. As I say,
since I was minus ten, you know, because I'm a
young man. And and what I know about him is
he listens very carefully, straight up. If he's going to
disagree with you, I'll tell you, and and takes takes
it on board and acts and acts in accordance with
that view. But not he's his own man, of course,
but listens carefully.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, I've had a lot of dealings, you'll know. The
thing that I one thing I do like about him
is that quite often he'll put principle before politics. I
remember when he was Justice minister, he was talking about, look,
we've got to change the way we deal with prisons
and prisoners and that whole sort of like mentality. And
remember saying to me, look, the problem is politically this
is a loser. You know, there's no benefit to it.
Takes years for the results to come through, but I
(10:23):
really believe it's important. I'm going to do it. Well.
Then he got plucked out of there and put into
health and we never saw those but I like the attitude.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Do you feel confident that he might be the guy
that take us Mark? I mean, I mean, I know
we're off topic because when we were talking about the
Prime well, the Prime Minister deal with him is probably
the question.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Well of the year, because they you know, they understand
the language, and they understand each other and understand the process.
So I think, in fact, probably probably in some ways
Andrew more than Christopher.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So look, I think that's the reason you and I
aren't standing. There isn't it.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Well, I know the reason I'm not standing. I can't
talk for you. I know I'm not bright enough.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
The challenge I think for Andrew, if he does get in,
will be to actually be brave and bold because he's
naturally a cautiou sort of guy. Would that's fair enough,
That's that's a that's rewarded and politics that But will
he be bold and that's the that's a challenge, and
i'd certainly challenge them on that. I have challenged him
on that. And some of that challenge might be about size,
accouncil rates, rises and so on. So let's see what
(11:18):
let's let's take place. You see, I have only I've
only met him a couple of times, and I like him.
I've got no issue with him, and he and he
listens what you like.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
You're right, you're right, But I want someone a little
bit more exciting. I'm sorry, you know, I mean, I
mean that it shouldn't be a negative. He's just not
an exciting guy.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Yeah, when I was talking to him about the fact
that that the last time we had a great meal
like that was Mark Blumsky saw which logan that Mark,
but the city was booming. But he was a cheerleader.
But that's because, as I said, Andrew, he unleashed the private,
didn't allow the private unleashed it. And I remember mate
of mine flying across to Wellington for the weekend from
Sydney because Wellington was the Australasia party town.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
And Simmons they come from all over the world.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
So that's that's the opportunity. If he's bold and he
unleashes the business community, and I think he maybe he's
got it.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Okay, still don't you haven't sort of got me too
confident about the excitement part Friday face off with Phil
O'Reilly and Mark Sainsbury. This morning, we talked about the
Hut City Council is under fire for keeping information about
a crypto outbreak from the public. The council was told
by a family that their children had got sick after
swimming in a council run Toddlers Paul on March the fourth,
(12:26):
but took till March twenty first before the council told
the public. Actually the same day that they got approached
by some media chasing the story down. Now, you may
or not both surprise, you may or may not be aware.
But there's been nearly one hundred crypto cases around and
it's been pretty horrific in it. And basically what happened, Philip,
(12:47):
I'll start with you. The council decided to withhold information
to prevent undue undue alarm. Now that infuriates me.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
I agree. And what that's about is a bureaucrat. I
don't know these people, but it sort of screams out
to me, a bureaucrat playing a bureaucratic process. I've ticked
this box. The risk is this where you can make
a public stament this timeh No, there's some kids getting sick.
In other words, are we standing in a circle in
the council officers looking at each other? So what do
we do? What do we do? What do we do?
And there's no we just talked about this adult in
(13:16):
the room to say, hang on a second, all those
processes and bureaucratic things are all fine, there's some kids
getting sick. We should take taketion about this. And at
the very least I understand from the article they should
draining the pool and refilling it wll to solve the problem.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, get on and do that.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Yeah, just how high can this be?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
But even just informing people pipe I said, put a
little A four sign on the door saying, hey, there's
been a couple of cays the crypto. Let's be a
bit smart about this. We had a lady ring up
that looks looks after healthcare people and they took a
person then swim in there and they had five hours
later they had an ambulance and he was on fe consent.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Let people know that there's some issues done that they
can make their own decisions. The other thing is they
keep saying this can last in the water for up
to twelve days, and it doesn't make sense that are
reading will hold off and see who you don't we
don't want to cause undue alarmed. Well we'll tell you
what causes undue alarm. This is what you know when
people pointed as their kids sort of vomiting into their
hands all night, you know, it's it looks a classic
(14:12):
just trying to hose down avoid any sort of public
sort of you know, approbrium or it might get some blame,
and it's just a cluster.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Why do we have people in the councils that's job
is to advise us and they don't advise us.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
It's because they're because they're classic bureau As soon as
I say I don't want to criticize this particular indig
or maybe there's a brilliant reason why those decisions were made,
but a bureauer as someone who, in the worst sort
of sense, somebody who just follows the rules without thinking, actually,
you know, the reason we do this is because we're
elected by the public. They elected us, and they pay
rates and we're in their service. And I think far
(14:47):
too offen people sitting in offices who don't understand that,
don't take into account of that. They kind of lose
that that truth that this is all about someone other
than them. And so that's when you get these kinds
of things happening as opposed to this is just not right.
We should do something about this.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
See, I kind of little bit disagree with you. I
don't think there is an excuse for it. I really
do not think you know, you'll explain. Yeah, you know,
but you were saying that you don't know what happened
in this particular. There's no particular here, you know, mark
is there, there is you know there. They've had letters
telling people because you know, they've got the science telling
them there's a problem here. Hey, let people know.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
First report you get, you should be checking out saying, look,
this is connected to us. Is that what's happening here?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Do we?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Well it was they had that and so yeah, but
I'm saying, okay, that's your first report. You can understand. Look,
we might just you know, there's no point shutting down
the whole thing and causing a panic. It may not
be us. We're going to check this, but you look
at all the successful things that have happened. Now you're
getting floated around, and this whole thing we don'tant to
cause undue alarm.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
It's just nuts. Yeah, And as a result of course,
public faith in that's whoming pool will be gone for
a long time now. They'll be scared about it.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And it's a brand new, beautiful facility and it shouldn't
be like that if they've actually done the things right,
everyone would have said, there's good bit of a problem.
We sorted out. Yeah, because next day we're opening. The
way we go again is pretty simple. I want to
talk to you about a story that we did during
the week, because that's what we're here for. This potentially
hundreds of kids in New Zealand that are born to
overstaying parents who are in hiding. This one case that
(16:14):
we talked about was a nineteen year old who was
born in New Zealand to overstaying Indian parents. He had
never had any education. His father was kicked out three
days after he was born. Right, He's never had any education,
hasn't seen a doctor since his ten and has been
in hiding for nearly two years. Mark Sainsbury, did you
know that if you were born in New Zealand you
don't actually have the citizenship? Do you know that? Remember
(16:37):
Helen Clark actually changed the law.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Look, I shouldn't know because I was there. I was
there at the time, but as soon as I saw it,
immediately thinking about Trump and what's happening in the US
and the whole birthright sort of situation there, And to
be honest, I thought I presumed that if you were
born here, you would have an automatic right to you know,
citizenship would be here. I didn't realize that. I mean,
(17:00):
obviously it has changed.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, two thousand and six Helen Clark changed the law
because of the Tampa Bay stuff. Do you remember it now? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
so she changed it. But you know, Australia has it,
America we're talking about Donald drub America has it, but
we don't have it here. So this poor kids and
hiding is that?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Phil?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Can you tell me? Explain that to me.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
I can see, I can see the logic of not
giving you automatic citizenship, right. So the reason is that,
you know, you've got a person who wants to who
wants to come to New Zealand, they arrive on a
plane heavily pregnant, have the baby here, and then claim
the claim they've got to stay. You can see how
that could be. That's a pretty small problem, to be fair,
because that's that's that's going to be a pretty rare thing.
But you can see in some circumstances why that might
(17:41):
be the case. You can probably be dealt with by
by by exception rather than the rule. But it's absolutely tragedy,
isn't it That this young boy and there may be
others like him, There must be others like him, effectively
in the deepest, darkest sort of despair, and I can't.
When I read the story, I was incredibly surprised. Does
this happen in our country?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
And what's and what's going to happen as the parents
get older? They got somebody's undocumented, you've got no education,
you're not going to be supporting yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I mean it's well, he's got no passport. No, you know,
he's got a passport for India or New Zealand. You
know he's stuffed.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Well, of course, that's that's why. Once you go back
to this point, I just manguly on the bureaucrats who
are sitting in a circle looking at each other wondering
if for far of the rules, you're just going to
put the rule book away for that kind of circumstances,
say look, you're in New Zealand. Welcome to New Zealand.
We're going to give you an education, give your health care,
make sure you're okay. Because I think every single New Zealander, anybody,
just the sho would say, well, of course that's what
you do. You don't say, well, you're stateless, so go away.
(18:36):
That's not the case. This could, this could We should
look after this kid.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
The thing that got me too, Nick, You think about
the fear these people must be living in so seem
to get them going to sort of doctors or to
get involved with the system. In any case, what sort
of terror are you living hunder?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Is this our country?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And Phillow Riley, your reaction was exactly by a reaction
when Ethan gave me the story. I went, no, this can'ty.
You did exactly the same description and mark you the same.
This is not New Zealand that we know. We bring
in you know, we bring in people. All millions of
people come in to New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
And we look after them. And although we don't give
that automatic citizenship right, we do give them a lot
of things quite quickly that other countries don't give them.
We give them a right to vote quite quickly. They've
got access to welfare, I think day one they ar
A lot of countries don't do that, including Australia by
the way. So in fact, we do look after people
who migrate here permanently and lawfully. But there is something
(19:31):
deeply wrong with our system where to Mark's point where
that fear, there's so much fear that you've got a
kid living in those kinds of circumstances. That's, by the way.
The local community should have done something about that too,
you know, people would have known about that and nothing
was done. So I think it's a a pox on
all houses of this one.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, and New Zealand Friday face off with Mark Sainsbury
and fill O'Reilly. Well, it's exactly halfway through the parliamentary term.
The big news this week is tomorrow we change our
deputy Prime Minister. David Seymour takes on the job. Mark Sainsbury,
what have you made of the government of the last
eighteen months? What have you made as Winston Peters as
(20:09):
definitely PM, and oh my god, it's going to change.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
It's certainly, it's certainly as well. Look you know Winston
of course it wasn't their talk. There has been and
it's still going on. People can say he's going to
bring the whole house down. He's had his half term
as P as Deputy PM. Is it going to last
out the second half? I think he's actually i mean
foreign and is a good fit for Winston? You know, no,
matter what people know, I'm not been thinking. I mean,
I'm phil and I would knowing Winston for god knows
(20:35):
how long if he didn't exist, you'd have to invent him.
But look that that's that, that's been, that's been, that's
been a really good fit. I can't wait to see
what happens once Seymour takes over. But Seymour will not
be able to help himself. He'll be bontificating and all
sorts of stuff, whether it fits him with the government
policy or not. And Winston will be there ready to
take a pot shut of him for doing so, you know,
(20:55):
I think and and given that, I'm just trying to
find the right word to describe Christopher Luxon. He's just
sort of a bit that sort of laid back, sort
of too cool for school sort of thing. Meanwhile, all
this chaos could be going around them. Look, I think
it's going to be I'm really look as an observer,
I'm looking forward to it. Whether it's going to be
good for the country or not, I'm not one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I mean, do you think that when Saint Peters did well?
I think he did it.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I think he did No. Look, I think in what
he was what he was tasked with doing, and as
I said, that was that was a good fit for him.
And when you look at the government, I mean there's
a few, there's a handful of really competent people at
the top of the cabinet and then you start gets
a bit shaky then on down. I mean I remember
on budget day someone was saying to me that they thought, oh,
(21:39):
I know, you know, they thought Nikola hadn't done particularly
well and there'd be moves to try and roll her.
It's a but then the first question is, I mean,
irrespective whether you think that's right or not, who would
they replace her with?
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Well, it's any governments like that. Any government's got about
four or five really good counter ministers. Yeah, and they've
got about another four or five who are possible on
what I call mechanics. They're good. They're good, but then
always going to be like that, and then the rest
are kind of a bit sketchy. It's the same. I've
never known a government where there was a cabinet of
twenty outstanding ministers. It just doesn't work like that. So
(22:13):
they're a bit the same. But I agree that I
think Winston has done and absolutely stand our job, especially
his Minister of Foreign Affairs. And I say this to a
few audiences. Actually, I can't think. I can't think of
a better Minister of Foreign Affairs than him for what
we're facing right now, this kind of difficult time geopolitically,
very unstable time. He's been around the traps, he knows
(22:34):
what's going on, he knows all the actors. He's and
I've seen him actually operate in some of those some
of those circles and theaters are offshore, and he does
a really great job. And it's Deputy Prime Minister. I
think he's done. I also think he's done quite a
good job because he has kept things together. He's kept
it reasonably sensible. Bear in mind, this government is working
off the Colorition agreements, right, so everybody's forgotten about those,
unless she's still sitting there pinned up on people's walls.
(22:56):
We still know about them, of course in our business.
And so they're working through those things and using it.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
That's a word of compromise.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
That's right, and that's what was That was the compromise
at the start. That's what they're now walking through. It'll
get a bit bumpy anyway, in the next eightia months
because of course Winston having had the first time as
deputy that unleashes him a bit to become more than
New Zealand first leader coming into the election, So he'll
do that. And they're already starting to wind themselves.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Up exactly what Semur is to him, Yeah, bit of that.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah. And Seymour, of course, will will want to maintain
the rage because he makes votes out of some of this,
some of the race based stuff and some of the
privileged stuff. So he's going to talk to his audiences.
It'll look a bit untidy, but at the end of
the day, they still going to get through. They're still
going to get through that coalition agreement. So tell me
what you think will happen over the next dadium. Do
you think that Seymour will try and Puff's chiefs. He
(23:43):
loves Puffy because he needs to. Of course that they've
all realized now in MMP that the Little Party loses
unless the Little Party maintains a bit of the rage, right,
which is what he's doing now. He doesn't in a
particular way that sometimes I find extraordinary, but that's what
he's doing. And same with Winston. Right, they've got they've
got to keep their the rage up a bit, and
some of the rage is deeply uncomfortable. Of course, to
(24:03):
Luxom this is not as interested to do so. But
welcome to Pea podics the other.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Series to the other curious thing is listening to Winston
the other day ruling out labor.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Oh well, that.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Almost rules out him throwing as toys the out of
the cot. Well this, you can't bring down this coalition
when he's got nowhere else to go.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Friday face off of Mark Sainsbury and fill o'reiley. I
really want to talk to you guys about the wage
bill at Wellington City Council. I know we briefly talked
about it, but let's I'll give you some facts to
probably make it a little bit more interesting. Wellington City
Council's wage bill has gone up forty percent since two thousand,
so forty percent in five years, despite cutting more than
one hundred staff since twenty twenty. Sorry what I say,
(24:40):
despite cutting more than one hundred staff. Meanwhile, the number
of staff earning more than two hundred thousand a year
has more than doubled from seventeen to thirty nine. Now
this comes as the time Wellington Wellingtonian is all of
us face rate rises of at least twelve percent. We
haven't got the final amount, but at least twelve percent.
(25:00):
I mean, Phil, when you read stats like that, what
does that tell you?
Speaker 4 (25:04):
What's outrageous? I mean, it just demonstrates that they're out
to lunch. It demonstrates that they don't really have the
interests of the public at heart. They're all sitting and
they're paying themselves a lot of money. And I say
that that's as you know, I'm generally a reasonable person.
That's an unreasonable outcome. That demonstrates that someone is just
poking the bar acts frankly, and so whatever the new
arrangements are of the new CEOs there and he's underway effectively,
(25:27):
hope he is, and a new mayor. I've just got
to get on top of that because you can't say
to the public we're going to bang the rates up
and you're see anything Ford exception and highly paid people
buying lartes that's just not available to them, I don't think.
And it's a point I make to people. If you
keep on banging the rates up and the business community
has this too big rates differential, see it, if you
keep on banging the rates up and there's nothing to
see for it. Then they'll just disinvest. I'll just go
(25:49):
somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Why do we as why do we as business people?
I'm going to go to market one second? Why do
we put up with the rates being so much different
for business people than for residential It's not anywhere else
in the country.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
It's terrible and we challenged it for years at Business
Us in it as well. It's just outrageous. There's no
particular thing that businesses get out of the council. They're
just The reason councilors have rates differentials for businesses is
that they can because the other punters that have one
hundred votes and the business guy's got one vote. That's
why it's a completely cynical thing. Now if they could
demonstrate that actually it's worth it to charge extra and
(26:22):
sometimes they can then go for your life and charge it.
But the short point is the businesses do react to this.
Of course, Nick that you just don't see it. They
don't invest, they close, they invest somewhere else, they go
put their money into Auckland or in Australia. So actually
businesses do react to those things. They just don't make
it public. So and that's no doubt already happening in
the city. It just needs to be sorted out.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Mark Sainsbury two hundred thousand dollars a year, I mean
that's a lot of money. And to have thirty nine
people in that, you know, that's count I mean in
my day, that's council workers getting two hundred grand. I
mean that's that.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I was trying to film or have a better take
on this. If the council is compared to an ordinary business,
would you get the same level of executives on two.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Well, they are a billion dollar company.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
No, No, You've got to bear that in mind. And
I thought also to be fair, like they talked about
all these infrastructure projects and different things that doing. You
know that that three hundred and fifty million dollar town
all and the consultants that need to bring in. But
it would seem the consultants bill it's totally separate. And
that's gone up as well. So you've still got more
than doubling the number of people paid over and look,
and I'm not being saying, oh the Grench, no one
(27:27):
should get over ten hundred thousand or anything like that.
You know, there's a competitive market out there, But how
does that more than double in four years?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
It's ridicul And I don't care what anyone says. I mean,
I'm pretty liberal and open minded. Two hundred grand a
year is a decent salary, is yeah, you know, I
mean there's you know, it'd be less than one percent
of New Zealanders getting that. I would say, now that
i'm quoting, I'm quoting that out of my backside, but
I think i'd be right right. You'd have a better idea.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Pretty small number. To Mark's point, there may be private
sector companies that have lots of highly paid people and
that's their call, and but we don't have to deal
with them. We have to deal with the council. There's
no choice about it.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Can I remind you just quickly as you get on
your rave that they have generate something, David, They don't
have to sit there and just sit down another bill.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
And I think most welling Toonians would say, and for
all of that, are we getting an outstanding council just
doing great things around the city. I'm sorry, no, we're not.
So you know, if you're going to do all he's thinking, so, oh, well,
we're in the market and all that. Well, Okay, be
confident like the market is, and they're clearly not.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
No, and business people and the public, no one's feeling comfortable.
No one's feeling confident.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
The Friday facie hot.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Okay, fellow Riley, you got plenty of time. What are
your hots and knots? What's upsetting you and what are
you actually pleased with?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Well, my hot is actually not a willing story, but
it's a it's a great story that will be taking
place in one and two hopefully. Just yesterday I was
at a big printing company called Bluestart. They've got an
operation in Patoni, but this is the big one in Auckland.
I helped them out. I work with them a bit.
Just just a full disclosure. They opened a brand new
printing hall, a big bit of kit ten million dollar
printing press, a packaging press and so on, cutting equipment,
(29:05):
cutting and binding and blue equipment was opened yesterday by
the Prime Minister. A huge investment made by a private
company not listed bluester and a big voter confidence in
the future of the New Zealand economy. And it was
I was just so proud that I could see a
company doing that actually investing in New Zealand, investing in
new new equipment and new product. That it's what. Of
course the government was over the moon about it, of course,
(29:26):
because it's exactly what the government wants. So this is
all before the Well they get appreciated, No they won't know,
because no money has made. But companies like that continue
to invest anyway, and that.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Can I just start to give a bluester that used
to be government print.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
It did bits of it. Yeah, it's had a long history,
but it's you know, it's people say print is dying.
No it's not. Actually that kind of print is not.
Books and magazines and stuff are dying, but not that
kind of stuff, which is boxes and displays and so on.
So I thought, well, wonderful. I thought I'd come along
today and talk about it, because anybody doing that in
the current environment, celebrate them. You've done the same with
(29:57):
your restaurant, of course in in Courtney place, but you know,
just just taking it, taking a gamble with taking your
risk its service. Here they've obviously had a lot of
analysis on it, but they still had to spend the day.
And good for them. So that's the hot good for
the very good hot. Second that they are not is
Wellington Council Council laws who have come out just on
the last day or so celebrating the fact that we
(30:18):
didn't sell the airport shares because the shares have gone up,
and they must be that was a great decision to
make because the shares have gone up, and I just think,
oh my god, do we have any financial literacy at
all around the Wellington Council table. So you've continued to
double down on an investment that's already a high risk
in the same city as you are. If there's an
earthquake in the next ten minutes, that big investment that
(30:40):
you made, that successful investment, will be worth nothing much
as a matter of fact. And you haven't thought about
diversifying your risk, you haven't thought about paying back debt
that you otherwise could have and you're now going to
celebrate the silly decision you made because the shares have
gone up. But you just hold your head at that
kind of level of financial illiteracy.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Okay, we disagree on that as well, but we'll talk
about that after the show. Mark Sainsbury, you're hot not okay,
Fell's take it up all your right.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Not the Greyhound industry, you know, and it's funny all
these stories to come back to Winston Peters. Winston Peters's
racing minister looked at it and said, no, it's too bad.
There's too much abuse this.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
It's just it.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Cannot be saved. It's gone, you know, phasing it out.
And there's now in our last at Chiffort from the
Greyhanded in the street each other and so no, no,
people misunderstand us. And I'm certain there are people within
the Greyhanders who love their dogs and are kind and caring,
but there's too much until we know this cross got on.
So why they're having a last at chef for to
save it is just not hot as far as I'm concerned.
(31:34):
But what is hot is the day's the thirtieth of
May in the par where Winston Peters there is still
deputy Prime Minister. Is it's the twenty ninth to May,
which is the day that Winston Peter's the day that
ed Hillary set foot on the top of Mount he Forrest. Yes,
twenty ninth to May nineteen fifty three was the day.
And that is over there. It's a twenty ninth for me,
someone's around us time amazing amazing achievement, and he set
(31:56):
up the Himalayan Trust, and that trust is now run
by his grandson Alexander Hillary and thus still keeping it going.
Was the one thing he said this to me personally,
did the one thing I want. I don't want statues,
I don't want memorial I want them. All I want
is my work to keep going. And they're carrying the torch.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
So good on, Madam Milantrs Right. Thank you both very much.
I've got to go follow Riley Mark Sainsbury. Thank you
very much for taking time out of your busy schedules.
Wonderful have you in the studio and your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com