Chris Hipkins, Ayesha Verrall, Dame Jacinda Ardern and Grant Robertson have refused to front at public hearings for the second phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the Covid-19 response. Are they dodging accountability, or have they answered enough questions?
Also, Kiwirail have paid nearly $150 million to Hyundai over the cancelled iRex ferry deal. Is this better than expected?
To answer those questions, Infrastructure NZ chief executive and former Porirua mayor Nick Leggett and PSA national secretary Fleur Fitzsimons joined Nick Mills for Friday Faceoff.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said b Wellington's official week interview. It's
Friday facear with QUO Property Management, a better rental experience
for all. Visit dot Coe on its head. Thursday starts.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I don't care if.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Tuesday we right, just got an interesting text to start
the show, Nick, Nick l was loyal to labor ones.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Question go again.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I didn't have to stay under a question. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I don't know statement things change.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I'm pretty not in my current role. I'm pretty bipartisan.
Like I'm not well no not even no, no, not
that I still have principles. But you did you like
the way you said that I'm actually as interest and
it's the wrong time to be as interest because the
world is so polarized.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Flirv Simon's good morning and welcome good morning. That talking
about centrists.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yeah, absolutely, non for it. Respect that she's at the
center of every controversy and debate strike involving the public service.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I thought we got rid of strikes.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Oh well, why did you think that?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I know, I just thought that.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
It's funny you say that because I've been looking at
due to Collins comments recently, and it does seem like
the government may have planned to do exactly that, and
I'm desperately trying to flush it out.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You see, I grew up.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
At an age where school holidays came along and the
fairies were on strike. Now, I don't know whether that's
impregnated in my head as a youngster with fanning, planned
family trips canceled, but I've always been anti unions just
because of that alone.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
And what's happened since then. Our wages have gone down
relative to Australia, and that long hour's work culture has
become embittered in New Zealand. So the decline of unions
is also a decline in working standards. But we're still here,
We're still fighting, still a lot to do.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Nick, can you help me a little bit with me
missing my school holidays though I've still got.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
It okay, though you seem okay.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
But it is funny how that ingrains in someone, you know,
the experience of that, you know, creates a sense, you know,
in someone that that the action was the wrong thing
to do. I mean, I find that I find that
really interesting.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
And I'm making light of it, but it's something that
I think about, not I don't think about it, but
you know, when you think of unions, I think of
that exact part, you know.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, it's interesting the Australian example though, where I think
and Flea you might disagree on this. There's a unions
are stronger in Australia. There are higher wages. There's also
a stronger economy, which one would have to say is
because of there's a better partnership between business and unions.
At times I think there are. I think there's a
stronger round the table collaboration and I think that here
(03:25):
you know, New Zealanders are not actually that good at
getting on the same page over things. So that's when I.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Think of Australian unions, I think are gangs.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Hey, well, I think remember all that big controversy with
those you know, with the gangs getting involved with the
unions and all that there's only a few months ago.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Who don't look at me like.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
No, what's what we actually have in Australia as an
industry approach to bargaining and much stronger unions and much
higher wages, including banks who are here in New Zealand
and here in Australia. And because of the rules over there,
they pay more and they manage it. And I think
that just goes to show things like fair pay agreements.
If those rules are set up, business will adapt and
they will pay. And so we're actually becoming a massive
(04:06):
higher ring pool for Australia. We're basically a labor higher
company for.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Australia, apprenticeships for Australia, teach.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
You were talking about that earlier the week, where we've
definitely talked about it before. I mean, we can say
that an infrastructure as well, and we've got a workforce
here that when things go off in New Zealand as
and when the market activity drops, there are fewer jobs
Australia comes to town. But even when the market's strong,
we're still you know, they can pay significantly more twenty
(04:35):
thirty percent more. And if you're a nurse or a teacher,
or you're a tradee why wouldn't you go somewhere where
the weather's warmer. Your family might already be there and
conditions and wages are so much.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Better, or at least some of your family are there.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Yeah, well, that's right.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
And can I just say that I'm obviously a different
age group than you guys. But it happened when I
was nineteen as well, so it's not you.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
No, And we do also have to like, we've also
got to be less sense of New Zealand is a small,
isolated country. Kiwis are always going to go offshore for
a period of time and what we want us for
them to come back. We do want them to go
off shore to have experiences, gain experience, bring those things
back here. But we've also got it. We've also got
to decide what our future, what sort of country we
(05:22):
try to build, what are our values, how are we
going to look, how big are we going to be,
Where are we going to grow, What is the major
components of our economy going to be. So there's something
for people to come back to.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
And what the government are doing is making Australia more
and more attractive. They're currently introducing a new bill which
is effectively fire at will for all workers in Australia.
You have much higher wages and much greater job security.
It's a no brainer for people to move there, and
it is happening more and more people aren't coming back
and the government are responsible. Government settings dictate what business does,
(05:54):
and they're making it less and less attractive to live
and work in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
And I would say to balance that out that successive
governments here have done have not had the right policy
settings to keep people in the country. And when you
you know, we've got to have we're in struggle street economically,
we've actually got to have a government that's pushing money
into the economy, building jobs, growing the economy, so people
(06:18):
have got a reason to stay.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, we saw that yesterday, didn't we the building of
the new to pop up.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Well, Look, I think it's I think the message has
been received and I think there are some there's some
really good signs. We've just got to make sure that
that investment sticks and that it's that it continues.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Oh my gosh, here we go again. As I've said,
seven Griffith's last day today, so he's been a little
bit like he's in control, you know, So I'm letting
him play it out. Nick Leggett, are you you you
typing someone an email? Or are you are you part
of the show.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I'm just doing some Wellington water business while I'm here,
and that because I know you like to talk about it,
and I know Flairs always came to talk about Wellington waters.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
So can you just I know that you know that
you're not that great at doing two things at once.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
I'm bloody. I'm bloody doing things at once.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Willing to water done better. Let's talk about the big
story of the week. Well, I thought it was the
big story of the week. Chrishipkins, Aisha Verril, Jazinder Adern
and Grant Robinson, the big four, the power brokers, have
refused to front at a public hearing for the second
phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the COVID
(07:30):
nineteen response Nick Legg and I'm going to come to
you first because I know almost for bait and what
flur Fit Simon's is about to tell us, so I
can actually have her as my vanquilitus dummy.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Is this gutless?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
No, I don't think it's gutless. They've all given testimony
to the inquiry, so they've actually been asked questions. They've
made statements that is accessible that will form part of
the inquiry's findings. I'm look I think it's important to
look back and understand how things ended up in a
(08:05):
certain way. What I'm less interested in is the performance
in a star chamber of bringing people back and hauling
them over the coals.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
So we will get a let me just interrupt you there,
because I don't want to haul anyone over the coals.
But a public hearing is you go out on the
street and tell me your views out on the street
rather than being here.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
A whole different ballgame.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Yeah, that's right. But I would make one exception that
was I think Chris Hopkins should front not because he's
in any way special or different from the others, but
he is. He will be auditioning to be our prime
minister again next year, and I think from his perspective,
actually having that interaction in a public setting, letting him
(08:49):
defend his actions as a serving politician who wants to
get back into government, would be beneficial. I don't think.
I mean, I think as long as we can draw
on the insights and people will be able to form
their own opinions based on what the inquiry comes up
with on the performance of the government of the day. Frankly,
I think we do need to take learnings. I also
think we've got to move forward as a country.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, but this is I mean, isn't this moving forward?
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Isn't this I mean because it's helping us learn.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
I think it was a dark day for the country
in the world, and I think we are still dealing
with the hangover. Look at the look at the behavior
and the way that some you know, it put people.
In my view, it's it's created division that we haven't
yet overcome.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
It's created pain that we haven't overcome.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Well, that's right, we know that, so let's do something
about it. Let's focus on what we can do to
get out of that. And I agree with you, it's
not I'm not trying to minimize you know, I care.
I'm wanting to I'm wanting us to move on as
a nation.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Why flur Fit Simon's should those four not front publicly?
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Well, let's be clear that they have fronted, So I
just want to be really clear about that. All of
them have answered questions asked of them. But also they
did so in the in the days and years leading
up to this. Actually, New Zealand's COVID response was incredibly transparent,
just under a pair before the media just about every day,
so did public servants.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
But they gave their story and the.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Raal Commission has hundreds of thousands of documents and huge
powers in terms of requiring other documents that they don't
have to be provided to them, so that raw Commission
has a lot of a lot of power already they
have fronted. I also want to just reflect on the
human toll that it's taken on them, and I get it,
like their politicians, you have to be accountable. They have
(10:39):
been incredibly damaged, I think, and this is not that
none of them have reflected that to me, but from
what happened during COVID, they worked ridiculously long hours that
we wouldn't usually expect of human beings under immense pressure,
and they did an incredible job. New Zealand's COVID response
is one of the best in the world. Now, none
(11:00):
of that says we shouldn't have scrutiny or we shouldn't
ask questions, but I actually think if we're going to
get the answers to the questions that we all have,
you're probably better to not do it with television cameras
all over you you're live streamed. I think you'll actually get
better answers from all of them for them not worrying
about how a particular sound might bite could be grabbed
and this represented I actually think it's better public policy
(11:22):
for them to do it the way they have.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
How do you answer people, and you're looking me straight
in the eye, like me, that lives have been changed
forever because of some of the decisions they made. Surely,
and this is coming to you too, Nick, Surely they
should explain some of their actions to those.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Who have been affected.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
And I get, I totally get what you're saying that
all those stresses that you're actually describing from them they
created for me as a businessman as as as a person,
they didn't create.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Actually with respect, they dealt They dealt with a worldwide pandemic,
and their policy decisions had an impact, a further impact
on people's lives, be a business or in their home.
But can I just jump in there, because I don't
think Fleur should you know, have to answer that there's
been an election since then and that government were sought
(12:22):
and were rejected by the voters. So actually there's been
a democratic consequence to that. And what I'm saying is
we should have the inquiry. Government and officials should learn,
the public should learn from that. We should, But we've
all got our views, and I don't think a star
chamber is going to change that, I don't think. And
(12:42):
do you know what's the other thing I'd be saying
that if it was a national government as well, I
don't think Fleur would necessarily I think Flair would be
wanting a public flogging. But we actually look at what
this government has done.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
What this government is actually doing is setting us up
not to be prepared for the next pandemic, and I
think they should be accountable for it. We are losing
jobs in health New Zealand, We've got the public service
being increasingly underfunded. I think royal commissions of the future
will look that when we're dealing with the next pandemic
or major catastrophe facing New Zealand. And yes they should
be held publicly accountable for those decisions, in the same
(13:14):
way that de Cinder and Grant and Crisipkins and Marsha
Aware should be are being We're trying.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, But the issue is as well that we we
look back without considering some you know, the evidence of
an inquiry and next time we face a challenge where
far to we're too lars a fair because we were
too hard last time. This is about balance and nick
I was involved in you know, things around freight movement.
(13:40):
The government made some very silly decisions. Actually often they
were able to be influenced, and you know they could
they could pull out them. I mean, we've all got
those stories. It's it's very, very difficult to get everything right,
so it's good to look back. But crikee, we do
also have to think about how this affects policy and
decisions in the future, both in terms of running a country,
(14:01):
but also how you respond to a significant challenge like COVID.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And I like your view that they made mistakes, they
got voted out. I don't think that the particular coalition
we got right now have got right now are making
some of the right decisions either. And we can make
that decision next year, can't we.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Absolutely. I just want to pack up on your point
in it, because I can tell there's some hurt there,
and that's completely fair enough. I don't think Jacinda, Grant,
Aisha or Chris took any pleasure in making decisions like
closing the borders, decisions like requiring businesses not to operate.
Those were deeply difficult decisions with a huge weight of
responsibility down on their shoulders. And I wouldn't for one
(14:42):
moment think there was any glee or lack of sincerity
or commitment in making those decisions right And they said
at the time there will be mistakes, but we're operating
quickly and we're trying to keep people alive.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
But I'm one hundred percent agree with everything you say.
But there's pain on both sides, of course, and that's
what I wanted to make ruct clear.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
And I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing this
for thousands of other.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
An announcement about to be made today about a Wellington
company going into liquidation, you know that has been around
for eighty six sixty years, that employed and it's heyday,
two hundred people. They're going to go into liquidation today.
There is huge hurt right around the country.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
That we're need to be aired, and we're dealing with
the hangover. But what we need is to focus on government,
a government with policies, with an industrial policy. And we
might talk about this if we're going to have enough
time to talk about gas, but are an economic policy
not just for the next eighteen months or the next
four years, but a long term reimagining of what New
(15:44):
Zealand's economy looks like. I'd much rather we put the
effort into that, so we're creating future jobs and keeping
businesses afloat now and in the future, rather than totally
looking over our shoulder.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
It right, let's move on. I've got to go to
an ad break, But I really want to get this
topic out of the way very quickly, and I think
it's a very simple yes or no with one line.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
If I possibly can do that with.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I'm going to struggle, you're going to I'm going to
I'm Chloe's Fabrick. Did the speaker over react?
Speaker 5 (16:13):
Flur Fit Simon's At the moment in Palestine, children are
being maimed and killed and people are not getting water
and food. It is a serious situation. It was a
massive overreaction to what is a failure of the world order.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Okay, the speaker was what the question was.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Yes, he did overreact.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Nick.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
I think Chloe Shawbrick should be very happy that she
that the government has moved, that the Prime Minister has moved.
We don't know if the government has yet. She's drawn
I think people's I think she's spoken for a lot
of people's consciences in New Zealand. But it wasn't about
Chloe like once again activist, but I actually I think
(16:56):
she's she went too far, and I think the ticket
the speaker took appropriate action.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Wow, okay, even I think that he went too far.
Kiwi Rail announcements just come through on our fax machine,
on our computer, and I've got a very old printer
and look at it's not that well easy to read,
is it?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
So anyway, Kiwi Rail and high Endi have reached a
full and final sediment on the canceled project. Excuse me,
it's been confirmed today. The net one hundred and forty
four million dollar final sediment pay is to cover the
cost and curb by Hyundai and it's global supplies. And
it's only fair that the decision to cancel the project
(17:38):
was never never a reflection on high ONDI mister Peters,
says Infrastructure New Zealand CEO Nick Leggett, what are you thinking.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Live in the studio. Look, I think this is a
good result. It's I mean, it's one hundred and forty
four million dollars, so it's significant. But if you look
at the total cost of the Fairy project, it's it's
sort of a ten percent probably of that's just for
the boats. I want to really just like something clearly
(18:07):
here though. If those boats had gone ahead, the first
one would have rocked up into Wellington next year and
it wouldn't have been able to operate probably for years,
because the port side infrastructure had not even begun.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Couldn't they have got that done in time?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
No, no way, So you would have had a boat
sitting idle, and then another one would have turned up.
So you know the cost of that would have been
a significt would have been significantly more than one hundred
and forty four million. So I think this is a
good result. Look, but I go back. You know, there's
no there are no winners here in the sense that
New Zealand just has to plan and deliver and agree
(18:43):
on infrastructure better. That's the way to save money and
get better value for what we spend, but actually get
productivity and jobs in the economy faster. It is not this,
he said, She said boombust, political parties arguing that's the
that's the problem here and we're not going to change
that by saying political parties pleas agree. It's getting people
(19:03):
listening to your show, Nick to put pressure and to
think about when they elect their politicians. To get people
to get politicians expect politicians and demand of politicians that
they actually get on the same page about more. There
shouldn't have been a labor or a national way to
do the fairies or indeed in New Zealand first way
there just should have been in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
You know, I keep thinking about the Ministry of Works.
I don't know why, but you know what I mean, You.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Know what I mean. I keep conking age.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
You know, when you want to plan infrastructure and you
want to plan tunnles Nixt looking away at the moment,
I just think that you go from one project to
the next project and the guy that's sorting out the
big one in Auckland right now, that's just resigned to
go to go to Ireland to do a job a.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Ki We said exactly the same thing.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
If we don't having lunch with him today, he's actually
a put into a boy. His name Sean Sweeney. I'm
fantastic New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So if you told me I want Todd on the show,
I mean he's brilliant, and he said we need to happensfrastructure.
So we go project project, project, motorway, motorway, motorway, same people,
same organization, nobody's getting filthy rich because it's run by
the damn government.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
That's absolutely right, Nick. I couldn't agree with you more.
We can need the Ministry of Works back. There is
so much work to be done across New Zealand and
it should be publicly funded and it should be publicly run.
We've got a highly privatized model where all of the
companies involved clip the ticket and the taxpayer miss is out.
It is. I couldn't agree with you more. And I
hope that all political parties listening think very carefully about
(20:29):
it and actually they get rid of it. I've got
a lovely story about the Ministry of Works. The buildings
that were involved were built by the Ministry of Works
and the christ earthquake survived at a much higher rate
than those that weren't. So a good quality public infrastructure
for the public God, instead of this profit of the
members of Nick's outfit.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Well, and this is a guy. This is his statement.
I mean, this is your guy you're having lunch with.
I mean this is I watched him and I had
a tear in my eye on TV. I'm saying to myself,
how have we let this guy slip out of our
hands go to Ireland.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
He should be headed Ministry Work.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Why is that because we don't have a pipeline of
infrastructure with adequate funding to keep the skills in New Zealand.
And that's the skills like, no, we don't have We've.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Got a tunnel to be built and well into that,
we've got to be built inools hospital.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
But they're not. But the point is that is not
enough too. It's not enough of a pipeline to give
confidence to people to invest. And I'm sorry you're always
going to need private sector investment, but can I say this,
we do need a stronger public service skill set with
proper commercial negotiating and procuring skills to get to get
(21:43):
infrastructure built better and faster. So I agree we need
we need a stronger infrastructure government side player or players.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Interestingly, no one, no one's trying to cut out private.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
I'm quite happy to the government does everything better.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
We go to parap a lot quicker because of it.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
Well, what I do want to say about the fairies
is actually coming back to that we need reliable rail
abled fairies to go between the North Island and the
South Island of our country. And what this government did
in a populist way was cancel the fairies with no plan,
and they gave up their bargaining position. And this one
hundred and forty four million is a sign of a
government that doesn't thinks through decisions properly before making them,
(22:31):
and makes them on the basis of a populist approach
to saving money with very little thought for the implications
on the taxpayer.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
And as I just outlined, the previous government had no
plan either because the port side infrastructure was not going
to be there. And you talk about I mean this
is a problem for I mean, rail is an important component.
It's very small in New Zealand. But actually what we
need is reliable fairies that take freight. Let's forget about
the mode of transport that takes them.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Do we need to be rail enabled?
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I think that I think the country should make an
investment choice in railed out better rail services down the
main truck line. I do think that's hundred But then
a fairy investment is then a choice is part of
a wider investment decision. We split all this stuff up.
It's a big network. All the stuff is related. But
(23:20):
just on the other point, I think that this government
and Flur, I'll be interested to know what you think
about this, genuinely. You know, we've got they've set up
the National Fund Infrastructure Funding Agency, which is to get
investment from overseas. You won't like that, but then you've
got the Infrastructure Commission, you've got invest New Zealand. We're
bringing the component. You know, they are building the components
(23:43):
of what might look a little bit like a modern
Ministry of Works, and I think there should I think
that should come together naturally at some step.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Okay, Friday Face or Flur for Simon's and Nick Leggett,
let's talk about the poles. Let's lighten it up. Well,
are you smiling?
Speaker 5 (23:58):
So?
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I wish we had a camera in here. Flur just
lit up when I was talking about poles. You know, hello, hallelujah, hallelujah.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
I think the poles are great news for New Zealand.
It does show the government's under real pressure and there
should be no surprise about that. They canceled pay equity
claims that were about to be heard by the Employment
Relations Authority and gutted the pay equity. They've betrayed New
Zealand woman. And that's just one of many terrible things
that they are doing for this country. So I'm wrapped.
And I would say about Chris Luxen like I didn't
(24:28):
like John Key. I would never have voted for him,
but there was something likable and affable about the man.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I don't find out money.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
No, he was self deprecating, he was funny. He felt
like the kind of key we bloke that you'd needed
a barbecue and have a good convo with. I just
don't get that vibe from Chris Luxon, and I think
that he's suffering as a result.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
You know what my problem is. My problem is that
your group, your buddies, have done nothing. Haven't got any announcements,
no tax nothing or the union. The poles are about
how tough we're doing it. The poles are about we're
not happy. I think, well, it was ever to do
with the Labor Party.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
Sure, partly that's because this government's in power and they're responsible.
They were elected on the basis of solving the cost
of living crisis. What have they done nothing. Unemployment has
gone up and they took the Reserve Bank's focus off it.
That was one of the first things they did. Don't
worry about unemployment, take that out of your focus for
the settings of monetary policy. A pound of butter is
(25:30):
ten dollars in New Zealand. Now the cost of living
is getting worse, and Chris Luxen needs to be held
accountable for that. He said he'd fix it.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Nick Clegg, you're sitting there very quiet, which is very
strange for you.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Well, Flur was talking so and I was listening. I
think that the government does have problems. I think, but
they got thirty eight percent at the election. They're down
the kind of early thirties. I think if you're the
government and you're only in your first term, I mean, remember,
maybe the world has shifted a little bit in the
sense that you'd always expect a first term government to
(26:04):
kind of get it to get elected again. I don't
think we can say that safely now. And I think
it's I would agree with general tenor of what Flir
said in the sense that New Zealanders don't feel as
though their livelihoods are going to improve. I think now
that could change quickly. Like I mean, I remember when
(26:27):
I was very young, but I remember in nineteen ninety
two the first Bulger government, they looked like they were
for certain defeat and the economy turned round after Ruth
Richardson continued sort of rogenomics, things began to look up
and people felt better for a period that could happen.
But and you know, we've been pretty pleased as an
(26:49):
industry to see the stimulus of the six billion dollars
worth of projects, one of them being the Upper Hut
new facility that you mentioned that puts money into the
economy and employs people. It helps build a platform for.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Economic actor takes the number for the leadership though, I mean,
and Simon.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Bridges got rolling. He got rolled the.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Day after all, but he wasn't Prime minister, right, so
you know, being that incomement prime minister gives you an
extra level of security. It was interesting what Fellers said
about John Key. We listened to John Key on Mike
Hosking this morning. My wife's whole demeanor just, oh my god,
oh bring back John Key. There is he has that
he has, and you know, just Cinda in a different
(27:33):
way she brought She made people feel good about themselves,
as did John Key. And I think that Christopher Luxen.
We want someone who's going to make us feel as
those things are getting better, who's going to speak to
the best aspects of being in New Zealander. What are
the things that bring us together? And unfortunately, I think
a lot of people are still feeling division. And you
(27:55):
wanted to talk before Nick about you know, marty words
and reading books. I don't think those sort of things
do that. I think, irrespective of your view, it's not
a unifier.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Can I button here and say, when John Key was
Prime Minister in New Zealand we were in good times.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Life seems simpler the end of that.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
We were in good times. Of course we love our
prime minister in good times. When Gazinda was in her peak,
we were in a complete disaster and we were looking
at her to get us through it. So we had
our arms open up. What's Christopher Luxen got?
Speaker 5 (28:29):
He just feels completely wrong.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm saying he doesn't have that.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
He doesn't have the security of the economy going great
or a disaster. He's just in there trying to fight
his way out of it.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
But he feels completely removed from the reality of people's lives.
He doesn't feel it, doesn't feel like he understands. He's
not acknowledging how difficult it is. He's not leading.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I think he's good on the international stage. But yeah, look,
I think he hasn't. He's not the chief executive. We
need a governor and a leader and that you know,
you made the point about Labor. I don't think Labour
have to do too much at the moment. I think
I'm hoping they're doing some policy thinking. I'm sure Flair
knows whether that's happening or not. I would say this though,
(29:13):
because I go back to the point I made at
the start of this. As a centrist, I am worried
about the extremes. I'm worried about Greens and Party Marty
on Labour's left, I'm worried about what's at National's right,
and I feel both extremes are pulling the major parties
towards them, not towards the center.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Take a break and come back with hots and knots.
And that's a very very good point. New Zealand first
and Labor.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
I leave you with that thought. What we have at
ad break the Friday.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Lot, not.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Flur fitz Simon's give me your hots and knots.
Speaker 5 (29:50):
Look my hot is the Dental for All campaign. They
had a meeting in Wellington this week and they're basically
launching a very well organized campaign to advocate for free,
publicly delivered dental care for everyone, and the young people
behind that campaign, Max Harris and other is an action station.
I just they're really setting it up for success.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
It's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I love that idea.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
In terms am I not. I just want to have
a go at the government for their attacks on striking workers.
We've got striking nurses, striking teachers, and the government in
the form of Simmy and Brown and Judith Collins are
lashing out at those workers. Industrial disputes don't get settled.
When you have cabinet ministers lashing out at striking workers.
It won't help settle the matter and will probably inflame
(30:32):
tensions and polarize positions. And I think they should take
a deep breath and sit down and listen.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Spoken like a true unionist nick Leggett. And I wasn't
making that in a derogatory I have. You know, I
haven't the utmost respect for you. That's why you're on
the show all the time, nick Leggett. So likewise nick Leggett.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Oh, yes, well, mine won't be well. My heart is
I went to the opening of the Film Festival last night,
which was terrific. They've got one hundred films, which is
great for Wellington. Wellington needs these sort of shots in
the arms. And we saw a movie called It Was
Just an Accident, which is an Iranian film, really really good,
like quite compelling, and I think anybody who goes to
(31:12):
that will enjoy it. But I just that's that's my
hot My not is and Fleur I suspect this might
you know, stimulate her interest a little bit. Is the
renaming of the wrong Atta electorate to what was it?
Wellington Bays? No need for that, and and you know
the mirror of the Chatham Islands Manique Krune, fantastic mayor,
(31:35):
has come out and said, what about the Chathams? You
know we felt included with the name wrong Ata. Wellington
Bays is Wellington. It's it's got nothing to do with us.
So I actually that's my not and I think it's
a sad indictment. Actually we're dropping Martin names for electorates.
I mean that wrong Ata I have been there since
nineteen ninety six. I mean I think we'd all got
used to it.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Only mean nineteen ninety six. Yeah, I see.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
I love the idea of roget I love that's my
literate So I live out there and I just I
really and my wife doesn't care, and she is MILDI
but she doesn't care so much. But I think wrong,
and I think Wellington Central likewise. To me, Wellington Central's
just got something.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Absolutely, It's an institution in itself.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yeah, yes, I'm going to go to an air brake.
I'm sorry, I've been talking. Flurfford Simon, nick Leggett, thank
you very much for coming and thoroughly enjoyed having your company.
Thoroughly enjoyed spending an hour with you.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
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Speaker 2 (00:42):
I don't care if.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Tuesday we right, just got an interesting text to start
the show, Nick, Nick l was loyal to labor ones.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Question go again.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I didn't have to stay under a question. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I don't know statement things change.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I'm pretty not in my current role. I'm pretty bipartisan.
Like I'm not well no not even no, no, not
that I still have principles. But you did you like
the way you said that I'm actually as interest and
it's the wrong time to be as interest because the
world is so polarized.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Flirv Simon's good morning and welcome good morning. That talking
about centrists.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yeah, absolutely, non for it. Respect that she's at the
center of every controversy and debate strike involving the public service.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I thought we got rid of strikes.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Oh well, why did you think that?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I know, I just thought that.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
It's funny you say that because I've been looking at
due to Collins comments recently, and it does seem like
the government may have planned to do exactly that, and
I'm desperately trying to flush it out.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You see, I grew up.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
At an age where school holidays came along and the
fairies were on strike. Now, I don't know whether that's
impregnated in my head as a youngster with fanning, planned
family trips canceled, but I've always been anti unions just
because of that alone.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
And what's happened since then. Our wages have gone down
relative to Australia, and that long hour's work culture has
become embittered in New Zealand. So the decline of unions
is also a decline in working standards. But we're still here,
We're still fighting, still a lot to do.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Nick, can you help me a little bit with me
missing my school holidays though I've still got.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
It okay, though you seem okay.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
But it is funny how that ingrains in someone, you know,
the experience of that, you know, creates a sense, you know,
in someone that that the action was the wrong thing
to do. I mean, I find that I find that
really interesting.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
And I'm making light of it, but it's something that
I think about, not I don't think about it, but
you know, when you think of unions, I think of
that exact part, you know.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, it's interesting the Australian example though, where I think
and Flea you might disagree on this. There's a unions
are stronger in Australia. There are higher wages. There's also
a stronger economy, which one would have to say is
because of there's a better partnership between business and unions.
At times I think there are. I think there's a
stronger round the table collaboration and I think that here
(03:25):
you know, New Zealanders are not actually that good at
getting on the same page over things. So that's when I.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Think of Australian unions, I think are gangs.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Hey, well, I think remember all that big controversy with
those you know, with the gangs getting involved with the
unions and all that there's only a few months ago.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Who don't look at me like.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
No, what's what we actually have in Australia as an
industry approach to bargaining and much stronger unions and much
higher wages, including banks who are here in New Zealand
and here in Australia. And because of the rules over there,
they pay more and they manage it. And I think
that just goes to show things like fair pay agreements.
If those rules are set up, business will adapt and
they will pay. And so we're actually becoming a massive
(04:06):
higher ring pool for Australia. We're basically a labor higher
company for.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Australia, apprenticeships for Australia, teach.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
You were talking about that earlier the week, where we've
definitely talked about it before. I mean, we can say
that an infrastructure as well, and we've got a workforce
here that when things go off in New Zealand as
and when the market activity drops, there are fewer jobs
Australia comes to town. But even when the market's strong,
we're still you know, they can pay significantly more twenty
(04:35):
thirty percent more. And if you're a nurse or a teacher,
or you're a tradee why wouldn't you go somewhere where
the weather's warmer. Your family might already be there and
conditions and wages are so much.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Better, or at least some of your family are there.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Yeah, well, that's right.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
And can I just say that I'm obviously a different
age group than you guys. But it happened when I
was nineteen as well, so it's not you.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
No, And we do also have to like, we've also
got to be less sense of New Zealand is a small,
isolated country. Kiwis are always going to go offshore for
a period of time and what we want us for
them to come back. We do want them to go
off shore to have experiences, gain experience, bring those things
back here. But we've also got it. We've also got
to decide what our future, what sort of country we
(05:22):
try to build, what are our values, how are we
going to look, how big are we going to be,
Where are we going to grow, What is the major
components of our economy going to be. So there's something
for people to come back to.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
And what the government are doing is making Australia more
and more attractive. They're currently introducing a new bill which
is effectively fire at will for all workers in Australia.
You have much higher wages and much greater job security.
It's a no brainer for people to move there, and
it is happening more and more people aren't coming back
and the government are responsible. Government settings dictate what business does,
(05:54):
and they're making it less and less attractive to live
and work in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
And I would say to balance that out that successive
governments here have done have not had the right policy
settings to keep people in the country. And when you
you know, we've got to have we're in struggle street economically,
we've actually got to have a government that's pushing money
into the economy, building jobs, growing the economy, so people
(06:18):
have got a reason to stay.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, we saw that yesterday, didn't we the building of
the new to pop up.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Well, Look, I think it's I think the message has
been received and I think there are some there's some
really good signs. We've just got to make sure that
that investment sticks and that it's that it continues.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Oh my gosh, here we go again. As I've said,
seven Griffith's last day today, so he's been a little
bit like he's in control, you know, So I'm letting
him play it out. Nick Leggett, are you you you
typing someone an email? Or are you are you part
of the show.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I'm just doing some Wellington water business while I'm here,
and that because I know you like to talk about it,
and I know Flairs always came to talk about Wellington waters.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
So can you just I know that you know that
you're not that great at doing two things at once.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
I'm bloody. I'm bloody doing things at once.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Willing to water done better. Let's talk about the big
story of the week. Well, I thought it was the
big story of the week. Chrishipkins, Aisha Verril, Jazinder Adern
and Grant Robinson, the big four, the power brokers, have
refused to front at a public hearing for the second
phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the COVID
(07:30):
nineteen response Nick Legg and I'm going to come to
you first because I know almost for bait and what
flur Fit Simon's is about to tell us, so I
can actually have her as my vanquilitus dummy.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Is this gutless?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
No, I don't think it's gutless. They've all given testimony
to the inquiry, so they've actually been asked questions. They've
made statements that is accessible that will form part of
the inquiry's findings. I'm look I think it's important to
look back and understand how things ended up in a
(08:05):
certain way. What I'm less interested in is the performance
in a star chamber of bringing people back and hauling
them over the coals.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
So we will get a let me just interrupt you there,
because I don't want to haul anyone over the coals.
But a public hearing is you go out on the
street and tell me your views out on the street
rather than being here.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
A whole different ballgame.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Yeah, that's right. But I would make one exception that
was I think Chris Hopkins should front not because he's
in any way special or different from the others, but
he is. He will be auditioning to be our prime
minister again next year, and I think from his perspective,
actually having that interaction in a public setting, letting him
(08:49):
defend his actions as a serving politician who wants to
get back into government, would be beneficial. I don't think.
I mean, I think as long as we can draw
on the insights and people will be able to form
their own opinions based on what the inquiry comes up
with on the performance of the government of the day. Frankly,
I think we do need to take learnings. I also
think we've got to move forward as a country.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, but this is I mean, isn't this moving forward?
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Isn't this I mean because it's helping us learn.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
I think it was a dark day for the country
in the world, and I think we are still dealing
with the hangover. Look at the look at the behavior
and the way that some you know, it put people.
In my view, it's it's created division that we haven't
yet overcome.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
It's created pain that we haven't overcome.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Well, that's right, we know that, so let's do something
about it. Let's focus on what we can do to
get out of that. And I agree with you, it's
not I'm not trying to minimize you know, I care.
I'm wanting to I'm wanting us to move on as
a nation.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Why flur Fit Simon's should those four not front publicly?
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Well, let's be clear that they have fronted, So I
just want to be really clear about that. All of
them have answered questions asked of them. But also they
did so in the in the days and years leading
up to this. Actually, New Zealand's COVID response was incredibly transparent,
just under a pair before the media just about every day,
so did public servants.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
But they gave their story and the.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Raal Commission has hundreds of thousands of documents and huge
powers in terms of requiring other documents that they don't
have to be provided to them, so that raw Commission
has a lot of a lot of power already they
have fronted. I also want to just reflect on the
human toll that it's taken on them, and I get it,
like their politicians, you have to be accountable. They have
(10:39):
been incredibly damaged, I think, and this is not that
none of them have reflected that to me, but from
what happened during COVID, they worked ridiculously long hours that
we wouldn't usually expect of human beings under immense pressure,
and they did an incredible job. New Zealand's COVID response
is one of the best in the world. Now, none
(11:00):
of that says we shouldn't have scrutiny or we shouldn't
ask questions, but I actually think if we're going to
get the answers to the questions that we all have,
you're probably better to not do it with television cameras
all over you you're live streamed. I think you'll actually get
better answers from all of them for them not worrying
about how a particular sound might bite could be grabbed
and this represented I actually think it's better public policy
(11:22):
for them to do it the way they have.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
How do you answer people, and you're looking me straight
in the eye, like me, that lives have been changed
forever because of some of the decisions they made. Surely,
and this is coming to you too, Nick, Surely they
should explain some of their actions to those.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Who have been affected.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
And I get, I totally get what you're saying that
all those stresses that you're actually describing from them they
created for me as a businessman as as as a person,
they didn't create.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Actually with respect, they dealt They dealt with a worldwide pandemic,
and their policy decisions had an impact, a further impact
on people's lives, be a business or in their home.
But can I just jump in there, because I don't
think Fleur should you know, have to answer that there's
been an election since then and that government were sought
(12:22):
and were rejected by the voters. So actually there's been
a democratic consequence to that. And what I'm saying is
we should have the inquiry. Government and officials should learn,
the public should learn from that. We should, But we've
all got our views, and I don't think a star
chamber is going to change that, I don't think. And
(12:42):
do you know what's the other thing I'd be saying
that if it was a national government as well, I
don't think Fleur would necessarily I think Flair would be
wanting a public flogging. But we actually look at what
this government has done.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
What this government is actually doing is setting us up
not to be prepared for the next pandemic, and I
think they should be accountable for it. We are losing
jobs in health New Zealand, We've got the public service
being increasingly underfunded. I think royal commissions of the future
will look that when we're dealing with the next pandemic
or major catastrophe facing New Zealand. And yes they should
be held publicly accountable for those decisions, in the same
(13:14):
way that de Cinder and Grant and Crisipkins and Marsha
Aware should be are being We're trying.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, But the issue is as well that we we
look back without considering some you know, the evidence of
an inquiry and next time we face a challenge where
far to we're too lars a fair because we were
too hard last time. This is about balance and nick
I was involved in you know, things around freight movement.
(13:40):
The government made some very silly decisions. Actually often they
were able to be influenced, and you know they could
they could pull out them. I mean, we've all got
those stories. It's it's very, very difficult to get everything right,
so it's good to look back. But crikee, we do
also have to think about how this affects policy and
decisions in the future, both in terms of running a country,
(14:01):
but also how you respond to a significant challenge like COVID.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And I like your view that they made mistakes, they
got voted out. I don't think that the particular coalition
we got right now have got right now are making
some of the right decisions either. And we can make
that decision next year, can't we.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Absolutely. I just want to pack up on your point
in it, because I can tell there's some hurt there,
and that's completely fair enough. I don't think Jacinda, Grant,
Aisha or Chris took any pleasure in making decisions like
closing the borders, decisions like requiring businesses not to operate.
Those were deeply difficult decisions with a huge weight of
responsibility down on their shoulders. And I wouldn't for one
(14:42):
moment think there was any glee or lack of sincerity
or commitment in making those decisions right And they said
at the time there will be mistakes, but we're operating
quickly and we're trying to keep people alive.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
But I'm one hundred percent agree with everything you say.
But there's pain on both sides, of course, and that's
what I wanted to make ruct clear.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
And I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing this
for thousands of other.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
An announcement about to be made today about a Wellington
company going into liquidation, you know that has been around
for eighty six sixty years, that employed and it's heyday,
two hundred people. They're going to go into liquidation today.
There is huge hurt right around the country.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
That we're need to be aired, and we're dealing with
the hangover. But what we need is to focus on government,
a government with policies, with an industrial policy. And we
might talk about this if we're going to have enough
time to talk about gas, but are an economic policy
not just for the next eighteen months or the next
four years, but a long term reimagining of what New
(15:44):
Zealand's economy looks like. I'd much rather we put the
effort into that, so we're creating future jobs and keeping
businesses afloat now and in the future, rather than totally
looking over our shoulder.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
It right, let's move on. I've got to go to
an ad break, But I really want to get this
topic out of the way very quickly, and I think
it's a very simple yes or no with one line.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
If I possibly can do that with.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I'm going to struggle, you're going to I'm going to
I'm Chloe's Fabrick. Did the speaker over react?
Speaker 5 (16:13):
Flur Fit Simon's At the moment in Palestine, children are
being maimed and killed and people are not getting water
and food. It is a serious situation. It was a
massive overreaction to what is a failure of the world order.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Okay, the speaker was what the question was.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Yes, he did overreact.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Nick.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
I think Chloe Shawbrick should be very happy that she
that the government has moved, that the Prime Minister has moved.
We don't know if the government has yet. She's drawn
I think people's I think she's spoken for a lot
of people's consciences in New Zealand. But it wasn't about
Chloe like once again activist, but I actually I think
(16:56):
she's she went too far, and I think the ticket
the speaker took appropriate action.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Wow, okay, even I think that he went too far.
Kiwi Rail announcements just come through on our fax machine,
on our computer, and I've got a very old printer
and look at it's not that well easy to read,
is it?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
So anyway, Kiwi Rail and high Endi have reached a
full and final sediment on the canceled project. Excuse me,
it's been confirmed today. The net one hundred and forty
four million dollar final sediment pay is to cover the
cost and curb by Hyundai and it's global supplies. And
it's only fair that the decision to cancel the project
(17:38):
was never never a reflection on high ONDI mister Peters,
says Infrastructure New Zealand CEO Nick Leggett, what are you thinking.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Live in the studio. Look, I think this is a
good result. It's I mean, it's one hundred and forty
four million dollars, so it's significant. But if you look
at the total cost of the Fairy project, it's it's
sort of a ten percent probably of that's just for
the boats. I want to really just like something clearly
(18:07):
here though. If those boats had gone ahead, the first
one would have rocked up into Wellington next year and
it wouldn't have been able to operate probably for years,
because the port side infrastructure had not even begun.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Couldn't they have got that done in time?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
No, no way, So you would have had a boat
sitting idle, and then another one would have turned up.
So you know the cost of that would have been
a significt would have been significantly more than one hundred
and forty four million. So I think this is a
good result. Look, but I go back. You know, there's
no there are no winners here in the sense that
New Zealand just has to plan and deliver and agree
(18:43):
on infrastructure better. That's the way to save money and
get better value for what we spend, but actually get
productivity and jobs in the economy faster. It is not this,
he said, She said boombust, political parties arguing that's the
that's the problem here and we're not going to change
that by saying political parties pleas agree. It's getting people
(19:03):
listening to your show, Nick to put pressure and to
think about when they elect their politicians. To get people
to get politicians expect politicians and demand of politicians that
they actually get on the same page about more. There
shouldn't have been a labor or a national way to
do the fairies or indeed in New Zealand first way
there just should have been in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
You know, I keep thinking about the Ministry of Works.
I don't know why, but you know what I mean, You.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Know what I mean. I keep conking age.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
You know, when you want to plan infrastructure and you
want to plan tunnles Nixt looking away at the moment,
I just think that you go from one project to
the next project and the guy that's sorting out the
big one in Auckland right now, that's just resigned to
go to go to Ireland to do a job a.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Ki We said exactly the same thing.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
If we don't having lunch with him today, he's actually
a put into a boy. His name Sean Sweeney. I'm
fantastic New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So if you told me I want Todd on the show,
I mean he's brilliant, and he said we need to happensfrastructure.
So we go project project, project, motorway, motorway, motorway, same people,
same organization, nobody's getting filthy rich because it's run by
the damn government.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
That's absolutely right, Nick. I couldn't agree with you more.
We can need the Ministry of Works back. There is
so much work to be done across New Zealand and
it should be publicly funded and it should be publicly run.
We've got a highly privatized model where all of the
companies involved clip the ticket and the taxpayer miss is out.
It is. I couldn't agree with you more. And I
hope that all political parties listening think very carefully about
(20:29):
it and actually they get rid of it. I've got
a lovely story about the Ministry of Works. The buildings
that were involved were built by the Ministry of Works
and the christ earthquake survived at a much higher rate
than those that weren't. So a good quality public infrastructure
for the public God, instead of this profit of the
members of Nick's outfit.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Well, and this is a guy. This is his statement.
I mean, this is your guy you're having lunch with.
I mean this is I watched him and I had
a tear in my eye on TV. I'm saying to myself,
how have we let this guy slip out of our
hands go to Ireland.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
He should be headed Ministry Work.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Why is that because we don't have a pipeline of
infrastructure with adequate funding to keep the skills in New Zealand.
And that's the skills like, no, we don't have We've.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Got a tunnel to be built and well into that,
we've got to be built inools hospital.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
But they're not. But the point is that is not
enough too. It's not enough of a pipeline to give
confidence to people to invest. And I'm sorry you're always
going to need private sector investment, but can I say this,
we do need a stronger public service skill set with
proper commercial negotiating and procuring skills to get to get
(21:43):
infrastructure built better and faster. So I agree we need
we need a stronger infrastructure government side player or players.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Interestingly, no one, no one's trying to cut out private.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
I'm quite happy to the government does everything better.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
We go to parap a lot quicker because of it.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
Well, what I do want to say about the fairies
is actually coming back to that we need reliable rail
abled fairies to go between the North Island and the
South Island of our country. And what this government did
in a populist way was cancel the fairies with no plan,
and they gave up their bargaining position. And this one
hundred and forty four million is a sign of a
government that doesn't thinks through decisions properly before making them,
(22:31):
and makes them on the basis of a populist approach
to saving money with very little thought for the implications
on the taxpayer.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
And as I just outlined, the previous government had no
plan either because the port side infrastructure was not going
to be there. And you talk about I mean this
is a problem for I mean, rail is an important component.
It's very small in New Zealand. But actually what we
need is reliable fairies that take freight. Let's forget about
the mode of transport that takes them.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Do we need to be rail enabled?
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I think that I think the country should make an
investment choice in railed out better rail services down the
main truck line. I do think that's hundred But then
a fairy investment is then a choice is part of
a wider investment decision. We split all this stuff up.
It's a big network. All the stuff is related. But
(23:20):
just on the other point, I think that this government
and Flur, I'll be interested to know what you think
about this, genuinely. You know, we've got they've set up
the National Fund Infrastructure Funding Agency, which is to get
investment from overseas. You won't like that, but then you've
got the Infrastructure Commission, you've got invest New Zealand. We're
bringing the component. You know, they are building the components
(23:43):
of what might look a little bit like a modern
Ministry of Works, and I think there should I think
that should come together naturally at some step.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Okay, Friday Face or Flur for Simon's and Nick Leggett,
let's talk about the poles. Let's lighten it up. Well,
are you smiling?
Speaker 5 (23:58):
So?
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I wish we had a camera in here. Flur just
lit up when I was talking about poles. You know, hello, hallelujah, hallelujah.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
I think the poles are great news for New Zealand.
It does show the government's under real pressure and there
should be no surprise about that. They canceled pay equity
claims that were about to be heard by the Employment
Relations Authority and gutted the pay equity. They've betrayed New
Zealand woman. And that's just one of many terrible things
that they are doing for this country. So I'm wrapped.
And I would say about Chris Luxen like I didn't
(24:28):
like John Key. I would never have voted for him,
but there was something likable and affable about the man.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I don't find out money.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
No, he was self deprecating, he was funny. He felt
like the kind of key we bloke that you'd needed
a barbecue and have a good convo with. I just
don't get that vibe from Chris Luxon, and I think
that he's suffering as a result.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
You know what my problem is. My problem is that
your group, your buddies, have done nothing. Haven't got any announcements,
no tax nothing or the union. The poles are about
how tough we're doing it. The poles are about we're
not happy. I think, well, it was ever to do
with the Labor Party.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
Sure, partly that's because this government's in power and they're responsible.
They were elected on the basis of solving the cost
of living crisis. What have they done nothing. Unemployment has
gone up and they took the Reserve Bank's focus off it.
That was one of the first things they did. Don't
worry about unemployment, take that out of your focus for
the settings of monetary policy. A pound of butter is
(25:30):
ten dollars in New Zealand. Now the cost of living
is getting worse, and Chris Luxen needs to be held
accountable for that. He said he'd fix it.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Nick Clegg, you're sitting there very quiet, which is very
strange for you.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Well, Flur was talking so and I was listening. I
think that the government does have problems. I think, but
they got thirty eight percent at the election. They're down
the kind of early thirties. I think if you're the
government and you're only in your first term, I mean, remember,
maybe the world has shifted a little bit in the
sense that you'd always expect a first term government to
(26:04):
kind of get it to get elected again. I don't
think we can say that safely now. And I think
it's I would agree with general tenor of what Flir
said in the sense that New Zealanders don't feel as
though their livelihoods are going to improve. I think now
that could change quickly. Like I mean, I remember when
(26:27):
I was very young, but I remember in nineteen ninety
two the first Bulger government, they looked like they were
for certain defeat and the economy turned round after Ruth
Richardson continued sort of rogenomics, things began to look up
and people felt better for a period that could happen.
But and you know, we've been pretty pleased as an
(26:49):
industry to see the stimulus of the six billion dollars
worth of projects, one of them being the Upper Hut
new facility that you mentioned that puts money into the
economy and employs people. It helps build a platform for.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Economic actor takes the number for the leadership though, I mean,
and Simon.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Bridges got rolling. He got rolled the.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Day after all, but he wasn't Prime minister, right, so
you know, being that incomement prime minister gives you an
extra level of security. It was interesting what Fellers said
about John Key. We listened to John Key on Mike
Hosking this morning. My wife's whole demeanor just, oh my god,
oh bring back John Key. There is he has that
he has, and you know, just Cinda in a different
(27:33):
way she brought She made people feel good about themselves,
as did John Key. And I think that Christopher Luxen.
We want someone who's going to make us feel as
those things are getting better, who's going to speak to
the best aspects of being in New Zealander. What are
the things that bring us together? And unfortunately, I think
a lot of people are still feeling division. And you
(27:55):
wanted to talk before Nick about you know, marty words
and reading books. I don't think those sort of things
do that. I think, irrespective of your view, it's not
a unifier.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Can I button here and say, when John Key was
Prime Minister in New Zealand we were in good times.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Life seems simpler the end of that.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
We were in good times. Of course we love our
prime minister in good times. When Gazinda was in her peak,
we were in a complete disaster and we were looking
at her to get us through it. So we had
our arms open up. What's Christopher Luxen got?
Speaker 5 (28:29):
He just feels completely wrong.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm saying he doesn't have that.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
He doesn't have the security of the economy going great
or a disaster. He's just in there trying to fight
his way out of it.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
But he feels completely removed from the reality of people's lives.
He doesn't feel it, doesn't feel like he understands. He's
not acknowledging how difficult it is. He's not leading.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I think he's good on the international stage. But yeah, look,
I think he hasn't. He's not the chief executive. We
need a governor and a leader and that you know,
you made the point about Labor. I don't think Labour
have to do too much at the moment. I think
I'm hoping they're doing some policy thinking. I'm sure Flair
knows whether that's happening or not. I would say this though,
(29:13):
because I go back to the point I made at
the start of this. As a centrist, I am worried
about the extremes. I'm worried about Greens and Party Marty
on Labour's left, I'm worried about what's at National's right,
and I feel both extremes are pulling the major parties
towards them, not towards the center.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Take a break and come back with hots and knots.
And that's a very very good point. New Zealand first
and Labor.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
I leave you with that thought. What we have at
ad break the Friday.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Lot, not.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Flur fitz Simon's give me your hots and knots.
Speaker 5 (29:50):
Look my hot is the Dental for All campaign. They
had a meeting in Wellington this week and they're basically
launching a very well organized campaign to advocate for free,
publicly delivered dental care for everyone, and the young people
behind that campaign, Max Harris and other is an action station.
I just they're really setting it up for success.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
It's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I love that idea.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
In terms am I not. I just want to have
a go at the government for their attacks on striking workers.
We've got striking nurses, striking teachers, and the government in
the form of Simmy and Brown and Judith Collins are
lashing out at those workers. Industrial disputes don't get settled.
When you have cabinet ministers lashing out at striking workers.
It won't help settle the matter and will probably inflame
(30:32):
tensions and polarize positions. And I think they should take
a deep breath and sit down and listen.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Spoken like a true unionist nick Leggett. And I wasn't
making that in a derogatory I have. You know, I
haven't the utmost respect for you. That's why you're on
the show all the time, nick Leggett. So likewise nick Leggett.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Oh, yes, well, mine won't be well. My heart is
I went to the opening of the Film Festival last night,
which was terrific. They've got one hundred films, which is
great for Wellington. Wellington needs these sort of shots in
the arms. And we saw a movie called It Was
Just an Accident, which is an Iranian film, really really good,
like quite compelling, and I think anybody who goes to
(31:12):
that will enjoy it. But I just that's that's my
hot My not is and Fleur I suspect this might
you know, stimulate her interest a little bit. Is the
renaming of the wrong Atta electorate to what was it?
Wellington Bays? No need for that, and and you know
the mirror of the Chatham Islands Manique Krune, fantastic mayor,
(31:35):
has come out and said, what about the Chathams? You
know we felt included with the name wrong Ata. Wellington
Bays is Wellington. It's it's got nothing to do with us.
So I actually that's my not and I think it's
a sad indictment. Actually we're dropping Martin names for electorates.
I mean that wrong Ata I have been there since
nineteen ninety six. I mean I think we'd all got
used to it.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Only mean nineteen ninety six. Yeah, I see.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
I love the idea of roget I love that's my
literate So I live out there and I just I
really and my wife doesn't care, and she is MILDI
but she doesn't care so much. But I think wrong,
and I think Wellington Central likewise. To me, Wellington Central's
just got something.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Absolutely, It's an institution in itself.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yeah, yes, I'm going to go to an air brake.
I'm sorry, I've been talking. Flurfford Simon, nick Leggett, thank
you very much for coming and thoroughly enjoyed having your company.
Thoroughly enjoyed spending an hour with you.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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