Emergency department and hospital staff are concerned as police prepare to make sweeping changes to how they respond to mental health calls.
Many of those changes have already been made in Wellington, with police attending mental distress events and assisting clinical staff less frequently, to keep up with demand.
It comes as Police Minister Mark Mitchell says police need to focus on their core role, and are having their time wasted at insignificant family harm callouts.
Mitchell joined Nick Mills to talk through the concerns.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News talks'd be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're lucky enough to have Police Minister Mark Mitchell online.
Good morning, Mark, good morning. Okay, we knew this was
going to happen on this show about a year and
a half ago. We heard that England had started doing
this and we said it's going to come to New Zealand.
They're spending too much time, too much resources, police resources
on looking after domestic issues, mental health issues. So here
(00:34):
it is that's coming. Who fixes the problem if the
police don't, No, Look, you're.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Absolutely what This is a common rock around the country.
I was in Canberra a couple of months ago with
the State and Federal Police Business's commissioners there. Look, they're
doing exactly the same thing. But I do want to
reassurance that we're going to do this in a smart
and intelligent Why police aren't going to suddenly disappear. They're
going to still be available. They're always going to be
there to attend. You know, if you're talking about family harm,
(01:02):
violent domestics or cases where these offenses that have been
identified and we're going to work with other agencies to
make sure there's a proper support and service stood up.
But the one thing I would say, Nick, is that
they haven't heard any inst But apparently she's been on
the radio this morning. You've heard of what's called an
own goal. This has worked. Triarching calls around family harm
(01:23):
is work that started under her watch in the previous government.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
We knew that it was going to happen. But that
doesn't quite answer my question is who fixes the problem
because you know, we learned today that police investigated three
thousand fewer family harm court cases last month compared to December.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Well, it's not they didn't investigate it. And by the way,
that's a very good result because they have been triarching
the calls, and our Triple one callers, of the callers
on our one o five line the world class. They
have the ability, the training and the knowledge to be
able to vet and triarge these calls. And what it
means is that police a large number of family harm
(02:01):
and since and that's a very broad category and that's
part of the problem. A large number of the calls
there are no offense committed. There is no need for
police to be there. And it's a use of what
it is. It's an unsustainable model for us as a country,
because when I've got gang violence or what or violent
retail offenders, or we want to get more police out
on the beat, we want them to attend genuine family
(02:22):
domestic violence. How police are tied up with these other jobs.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
But surely you, as an ex policeman and me as
a person that's lived life, know that all things start
as a small problem and they escalate to maybe murder.
So how do you actually know when to go and
when not to go?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Well, it is complex, and that's why you rely on
the experts to be able to triarge. And it's not
a science without a doubt, it's not a perfect science.
But the reality of it is, this is what I've
said all along, is that if there are underlying issues
in relation to some family harm, and then probably that
requires a ministry of social development or orang a tamariki
(03:00):
or an agency that can actually provide rap around, support
and follow up, not the police. The police are not
the right people to be standing in people's living rooms
trying to sort it out. And for example, I was
on a night suare frequently where there's an argument between
a mother and a daughter and iPhone charger you know,
there is the police are attend a lot of family
home instance where there's absolutely no requirement for them to
(03:23):
be there. Those calls are being triarched and the number
has come down. That is a good thing, not a
bad thing. It shows that a lot of these issues
can be dealt with without a police presence. And of
course we're working with the other agencies to make sure
that they can step up and start to develop a
workforce and capability so that it frees our police officers
to get back on their core role. It is not
(03:43):
a sustainable model for us, and I want our police
officers available to do the actual work that only they
can do.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Excellent we all, I think we all agree with that.
What do you say to emergency staff who say, and
I quote that taking their lives in their hands, responding
to these mentally distressed people with no police support around them.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Now, well, again, there's always going to be times when
this is going to be required, but there's many times
that there aren't. They I think that the rest of
the system has got used to always having the police.
The police has always been seen as the twenty four
to seven government agency, and over time they've picked up
a whole lot of work that is not their core role,
and other agencies are going to have to step up
and they are going to have to build out some
(04:24):
more capability. We are going to have to get smart
around triarging and identifying what the actual need is and
how we best respond to that.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Do you have the numbers, Mark, Do you have the
numbers of how many mental health related callouts the police
actually are attending?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Look, I don't have the numbers in front of me.
I know that it's been about a sixty percent increase
and mental health callouts for police. Like I said to
you that that is not sustainable, many many of those.
And looking if I use another example I've been out
of nightshift for the staff, is that you had an
eye carr and incident car which is two police officers
in it that was called to a young woman that
(05:01):
was having thoughts of self harm nineteen year olds. Now
she needs proper support in these proper mental health and
health for sport support wrapped arounder. Those police officers were
tied up for an entire shift sitting in an ed
looking after it. They're not trained to do that. And
when people are actually putting up their hands when they
are having to try and survive a violent domestic and
(05:22):
there isn't a police card to attend. Because they're sitting
in an ed baby, sitting and looking after someone that
should actually be getting some proper mental health support. Then
you know that the system is not working properly. It's
certainly not working properly for us as a country. It's
not working properly for the victims that actually need that support,
need the police there when they put their hand up
for help.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Thanks Mark, appreciate your time. Mark Mitchell, police minister there
giving his side of the story.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks They'd be Wellington from nine to am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News talks'd be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're lucky enough to have Police Minister Mark Mitchell online.
Good morning, Mark, good morning. Okay, we knew this was
going to happen on this show about a year and
a half ago. We heard that England had started doing
this and we said it's going to come to New Zealand.
They're spending too much time, too much resources, police resources
on looking after domestic issues, mental health issues. So here
(00:34):
it is that's coming. Who fixes the problem if the
police don't, No, Look, you're.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Absolutely what This is a common rock around the country.
I was in Canberra a couple of months ago with
the State and Federal Police Business's commissioners there. Look, they're
doing exactly the same thing. But I do want to
reassurance that we're going to do this in a smart
and intelligent Why police aren't going to suddenly disappear. They're
going to still be available. They're always going to be
there to attend. You know, if you're talking about family harm,
(01:02):
violent domestics or cases where these offenses that have been
identified and we're going to work with other agencies to
make sure there's a proper support and service stood up.
But the one thing I would say, Nick, is that
they haven't heard any inst But apparently she's been on
the radio this morning. You've heard of what's called an
own goal. This has worked. Triarching calls around family harm
(01:23):
is work that started under her watch in the previous government.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
We knew that it was going to happen. But that
doesn't quite answer my question is who fixes the problem
because you know, we learned today that police investigated three
thousand fewer family harm court cases last month compared to December.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Well, it's not they didn't investigate it. And by the way,
that's a very good result because they have been triarching
the calls, and our Triple one callers, of the callers
on our one o five line the world class. They
have the ability, the training and the knowledge to be
able to vet and triarge these calls. And what it
means is that police a large number of family harm
(02:01):
and since and that's a very broad category and that's
part of the problem. A large number of the calls
there are no offense committed. There is no need for
police to be there. And it's a use of what
it is. It's an unsustainable model for us as a country,
because when I've got gang violence or what or violent
retail offenders, or we want to get more police out
on the beat, we want them to attend genuine family
(02:22):
domestic violence. How police are tied up with these other jobs.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
But surely you, as an ex policeman and me as
a person that's lived life, know that all things start
as a small problem and they escalate to maybe murder.
So how do you actually know when to go and
when not to go?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Well, it is complex, and that's why you rely on
the experts to be able to triarge. And it's not
a science without a doubt, it's not a perfect science.
But the reality of it is, this is what I've
said all along, is that if there are underlying issues
in relation to some family harm, and then probably that
requires a ministry of social development or orang a tamariki
(03:00):
or an agency that can actually provide rap around, support
and follow up, not the police. The police are not
the right people to be standing in people's living rooms
trying to sort it out. And for example, I was
on a night suare frequently where there's an argument between
a mother and a daughter and iPhone charger you know,
there is the police are attend a lot of family
home instance where there's absolutely no requirement for them to
(03:23):
be there. Those calls are being triarched and the number
has come down. That is a good thing, not a
bad thing. It shows that a lot of these issues
can be dealt with without a police presence. And of
course we're working with the other agencies to make sure
that they can step up and start to develop a
workforce and capability so that it frees our police officers
to get back on their core role. It is not
(03:43):
a sustainable model for us, and I want our police
officers available to do the actual work that only they
can do.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Excellent we all, I think we all agree with that.
What do you say to emergency staff who say, and
I quote that taking their lives in their hands, responding
to these mentally distressed people with no police support around them.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Now, well, again, there's always going to be times when
this is going to be required, but there's many times
that there aren't. They I think that the rest of
the system has got used to always having the police.
The police has always been seen as the twenty four
to seven government agency, and over time they've picked up
a whole lot of work that is not their core role,
and other agencies are going to have to step up
and they are going to have to build out some
(04:24):
more capability. We are going to have to get smart
around triarging and identifying what the actual need is and
how we best respond to that.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Do you have the numbers, Mark, Do you have the
numbers of how many mental health related callouts the police
actually are attending?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Look, I don't have the numbers in front of me.
I know that it's been about a sixty percent increase
and mental health callouts for police. Like I said to
you that that is not sustainable, many many of those.
And looking if I use another example I've been out
of nightshift for the staff, is that you had an
eye carr and incident car which is two police officers
in it that was called to a young woman that
(05:01):
was having thoughts of self harm nineteen year olds. Now
she needs proper support in these proper mental health and
health for sport support wrapped arounder. Those police officers were
tied up for an entire shift sitting in an ed
looking after it. They're not trained to do that. And
when people are actually putting up their hands when they
are having to try and survive a violent domestic and
(05:22):
there isn't a police card to attend. Because they're sitting
in an ed baby, sitting and looking after someone that
should actually be getting some proper mental health support. Then
you know that the system is not working properly. It's
certainly not working properly for us as a country. It's
not working properly for the victims that actually need that support,
need the police there when they put their hand up
for help.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Thanks Mark, appreciate your time. Mark Mitchell, police minister there
giving his side of the story.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks They'd be Wellington from nine to am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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