June 10, 2025 • 10 mins
The latest report from the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission is out - and it doesn't make for good reading.
Suicide rates remain high, with no significant decrease since 2018.
Also, fatal drug overdoses rose by 88% between 2016 and 2023, and 16,000 fewer people accessed specialist mental health and addiction services in the 2023/23 financial year compared to 2020/21.
So are we actually making progress on improving our mental health system, and what does the government plan to do?
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey joined Nick Mills to discuss the findings.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk SIB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Joining us now to talk about the findings and the
report is the Minister himself, Matt Doucy.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Good morning, Minister morning Nick.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Do you find these results as shocking as I do?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I mean I obviously live and breathe this every day,
but there's nothing more sobering than seeing reports like this
from the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission to focus us on,
quite frankly, doing better. Look, I'll welcome the reports from
the Commission. They are a watchdog. It's important that we
hear what they have to say. The data is from
(00:53):
around twelve to twenty four months prior, so it gives
you a snapshot of what this government inherited coming in.
Quite clearly, we've got to do a lot better around
ensuring people have more timely access to support.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Look will the numbers be any different if they were
done today?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well? I do hope so, and I look forward to
future reports for the Mental Health and Wellbeing commissioned. A
lot I heard very loud and clearly from people that
they were stuck on waiting lists. That's why the first
thing we did coming into government is set up New
Zealand's first mental health and addiction waight time targets to
ensure people who need primary mental health and addiction support
(01:38):
get that in one week and specialist within three week.
And we're reporting on our third quarter of that next week.
And the results I've seen are encouraging.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
You would have seen those figures, you know those figures.
Are people still waiting an average of six hours in
an need?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yeah, a lot people are waiting too long in ED.
It's quite a pressure. It's a build up. What we're
doing then that is to take some of the pressure
away from the numbers coming in that looks like crisis cafes.
We're rolling out the co response teams as well. We're
ensuring that we can take some of that demand away
(02:17):
from EDS and people can be seen in the community.
It's also ensuring we've got that wake time target of
six hours to discipline the ED system as well as
we've rolled out here support workers in DS to make
sure people get better care. But ultimately we've got to
make sure that there is flow through EDS and even
(02:38):
in the last budget we announce more funding into inpatient
beds and we want to make sure people get time,
the access to care.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
What's changed or what difference is it going to make
when the police stop looking after people at eds, on
bringing people to eds and doing all the stuff that
the specialist stuff that they've been doing for you.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, we just need to be a bit careful then
it because there has been a conflation of two different
work programs. So what we've announced is the co Response
Team roll out that is actually pairing up mental health
professionals with police. We're building that out over a four
to five year program that makes sure when you ring
up Triple one wanting a mental health response, you don't
(03:19):
get a criminal justice response, which is the police. But
also we've got the Police Mental Health Change Program that's
actually going to streamline processes and needed to ensure that
people coming in with police and the time and need
are not sitting there for hours with a police officer
with a taser gun. Instead, they're going to be ensured
to have a handover within sixty.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Minutes handover, but then they're not going to get looked
at for an average of six hours. Does that help.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Anything, Well, it's always complex with mental health because sometimes
there is the issue with the people's behavior and so
those might come in may be intoxicated from alcohol and
drug use, so it can take time to assess people properly.
But look, we've been very clear that six wake time target,
(04:06):
but we do hope to bring it down less than that.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Now, when you first got this job, you were very
passionate about this job. You've had it for eighteen months
and there was a reason why you were passionate. You know,
you've had some issues with your own life. Do you
reckon you've done a good job in the eighteen months
that you've had it.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, I do, Nick, And look, nothing's a silver bullet,
but you know, what we want to do is focus
on ensuring people get timely access to care, and a
big part of that is actually the workforce vacancy issue
as well. We published New Zealand's first standalone Mental health
and Addiction workforce plan last year stepped through very clearly
(04:51):
how we're going to grow the pipeline of the workforce
as well. So, look, it's a big ass but I'm
confident we'll get there.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I want to ask you why there were sixteen thousand
fewer people that had access to specialist service in the
last financial Yeah, compared to twenty twenty one. How with
the two billion dollars that Labor gave us, the new
ministry that you guys gave us, in the direction that
you guys gave us, how have we gone so badly backwards?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah? Or Look, I think the issue around the one
point nine billion under Labor has been very clear. A
lot of money actually of that didn't go into mental health,
but that's something for them to defend. Look, I think
the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission quite rightly highlights the numbers,
but the next step of the job is to get
(05:39):
into those numbers and truly understand the drivers of it.
In my view, some of it is going to be
through substitution. We've seen quite a lot of our primary
mental health and addiction services step up and take some
of that capacity, so I think that'll be part of
the picture. So we're preventing people going into specialist services
(06:01):
or needing it. Also, when you look into the New
Zealand Health Survey, data show about a third of people
don't come forward because they perceive the waiting times are
too long, and that's why we've got an absolute focus
on bringing down wait times. We want people who need
to see a specialist to see that within three weeks,
and that's what we're focusing on.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Quick yes or no answer. Do you think that we
really take mental health seriously enough in this country?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, I think we do.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I think we've a country that's really lifted and ripped
the band aid off. You know, we're a lot more
open to talking about mental health. We have really addressed
some of the stigma and discrimination issues. But the problem
we've got now is because we have been successful with
that mental health conversation, a lot more people are confident
(06:51):
coming forward and asking for help. And sadly, now that's
the breakdown where more people come forward asking for help
and that timely support's not there.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Minister. I call it the disease or the illness with
no scar, because nobody knows what someone's going through your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, I mean classically that is the issue with mental health.
You know, unlot physical health, where you can see potentially
a condition or an injury. But what I would say
is my experience is, you know, we have broken down
a lot of the barriers in this country. More people
are openly talking about it. You know, we're talking about
it on your show today, and that's to be encouraged
(07:38):
and like I say, now we've had that good conversation.
You know, it's important that all of us government will
have a role, but community and families and individuals to
ensure that time the supports there.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Will you guarantee that if I ring you this time
next year, will you guarantee that the figures are going
to be better?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Well? I do hope. So that's what we're focused on.
We focus on this every day. That's why we've brought
the targets in the Workforce Plan. We announced about one
hundred and thirty seven million dollars of new funding into
mental health support this budget. So we are focused on that.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Why are we getting such a huge number of overdoses
in the last seven years, It's increased by eighty eight percent.
I wasn't going to ask you that question, but I've
just got it ringing in my head. Do you know
the answer to that? Is there an answer to that?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, Look to begin, I don't have a definitive answer
my assessment of that. It's quite a long time period.
I think the top of my head, twenty sixteen to
twenty twenty three, we have seen an increase of illicit
drugs come through the border. We do know there is
an increased risk of overdose through opioid and fentinal use,
(08:55):
so it is important that we focus on that. I'll
be releasing the new overdose Prevention Plan very soon. What
we want to do is focus on things like the looxone,
which is a drug that can be injected to someone
who's overdose to prevent that. I think we need more
timely New locksown than New Zealand. We also need better
(09:15):
alert system when we're experiencing overdoses due to who contaminated
drugs as well, and it is breaking down the barriers.
We're very good when we look at our needs we exchange.
We're world leading in that and having the harm reduction
services that people can come forward without feeling like they'll
be judged.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Matt Doosey, thank you very much for taking time. I
know it's a hard one for you, and I know
that you personally take the subject of this topic, this
issue that we've got very seriously, so I thank you
for the time and hopefully this time next year when
we talk, you'll be able to give us some better news.
Minister Health, Minister Mental Health, Minister Matt Doocy, thank you.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Thanks Nate.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks. There'd be Wellington from nine to am
we days, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk SIB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Joining us now to talk about the findings and the
report is the Minister himself, Matt Doucy.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Good morning, Minister morning Nick.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Do you find these results as shocking as I do?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I mean I obviously live and breathe this every day,
but there's nothing more sobering than seeing reports like this
from the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission to focus us on,
quite frankly, doing better. Look, I'll welcome the reports from
the Commission. They are a watchdog. It's important that we
hear what they have to say. The data is from
(00:53):
around twelve to twenty four months prior, so it gives
you a snapshot of what this government inherited coming in.
Quite clearly, we've got to do a lot better around
ensuring people have more timely access to support.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Look will the numbers be any different if they were
done today?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well? I do hope so, and I look forward to
future reports for the Mental Health and Wellbeing commissioned. A
lot I heard very loud and clearly from people that
they were stuck on waiting lists. That's why the first
thing we did coming into government is set up New
Zealand's first mental health and addiction waight time targets to
ensure people who need primary mental health and addiction support
(01:38):
get that in one week and specialist within three week.
And we're reporting on our third quarter of that next week.
And the results I've seen are encouraging.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
You would have seen those figures, you know those figures.
Are people still waiting an average of six hours in
an need?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yeah, a lot people are waiting too long in ED.
It's quite a pressure. It's a build up. What we're
doing then that is to take some of the pressure
away from the numbers coming in that looks like crisis cafes.
We're rolling out the co response teams as well. We're
ensuring that we can take some of that demand away
(02:17):
from EDS and people can be seen in the community.
It's also ensuring we've got that wake time target of
six hours to discipline the ED system as well as
we've rolled out here support workers in DS to make
sure people get better care. But ultimately we've got to
make sure that there is flow through EDS and even
(02:38):
in the last budget we announce more funding into inpatient
beds and we want to make sure people get time,
the access to care.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
What's changed or what difference is it going to make
when the police stop looking after people at eds, on
bringing people to eds and doing all the stuff that
the specialist stuff that they've been doing for you.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, we just need to be a bit careful then
it because there has been a conflation of two different
work programs. So what we've announced is the co Response
Team roll out that is actually pairing up mental health
professionals with police. We're building that out over a four
to five year program that makes sure when you ring
up Triple one wanting a mental health response, you don't
(03:19):
get a criminal justice response, which is the police. But
also we've got the Police Mental Health Change Program that's
actually going to streamline processes and needed to ensure that
people coming in with police and the time and need
are not sitting there for hours with a police officer
with a taser gun. Instead, they're going to be ensured
to have a handover within sixty.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Minutes handover, but then they're not going to get looked
at for an average of six hours. Does that help.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Anything, Well, it's always complex with mental health because sometimes
there is the issue with the people's behavior and so
those might come in may be intoxicated from alcohol and
drug use, so it can take time to assess people properly.
But look, we've been very clear that six wake time target,
(04:06):
but we do hope to bring it down less than that.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Now, when you first got this job, you were very
passionate about this job. You've had it for eighteen months
and there was a reason why you were passionate. You know,
you've had some issues with your own life. Do you
reckon you've done a good job in the eighteen months
that you've had it.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, I do, Nick, And look, nothing's a silver bullet,
but you know, what we want to do is focus
on ensuring people get timely access to care, and a
big part of that is actually the workforce vacancy issue
as well. We published New Zealand's first standalone Mental health
and Addiction workforce plan last year stepped through very clearly
(04:51):
how we're going to grow the pipeline of the workforce
as well. So, look, it's a big ass but I'm
confident we'll get there.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I want to ask you why there were sixteen thousand
fewer people that had access to specialist service in the
last financial Yeah, compared to twenty twenty one. How with
the two billion dollars that Labor gave us, the new
ministry that you guys gave us, in the direction that
you guys gave us, how have we gone so badly backwards?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah? Or Look, I think the issue around the one
point nine billion under Labor has been very clear. A
lot of money actually of that didn't go into mental health,
but that's something for them to defend. Look, I think
the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission quite rightly highlights the numbers,
but the next step of the job is to get
(05:39):
into those numbers and truly understand the drivers of it.
In my view, some of it is going to be
through substitution. We've seen quite a lot of our primary
mental health and addiction services step up and take some
of that capacity, so I think that'll be part of
the picture. So we're preventing people going into specialist services
(06:01):
or needing it. Also, when you look into the New
Zealand Health Survey, data show about a third of people
don't come forward because they perceive the waiting times are
too long, and that's why we've got an absolute focus
on bringing down wait times. We want people who need
to see a specialist to see that within three weeks,
and that's what we're focusing on.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Quick yes or no answer. Do you think that we
really take mental health seriously enough in this country?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, I think we do.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I think we've a country that's really lifted and ripped
the band aid off. You know, we're a lot more
open to talking about mental health. We have really addressed
some of the stigma and discrimination issues. But the problem
we've got now is because we have been successful with
that mental health conversation, a lot more people are confident
(06:51):
coming forward and asking for help. And sadly, now that's
the breakdown where more people come forward asking for help
and that timely support's not there.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Minister. I call it the disease or the illness with
no scar, because nobody knows what someone's going through your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, I mean classically that is the issue with mental health.
You know, unlot physical health, where you can see potentially
a condition or an injury. But what I would say
is my experience is, you know, we have broken down
a lot of the barriers in this country. More people
are openly talking about it. You know, we're talking about
it on your show today, and that's to be encouraged
(07:38):
and like I say, now we've had that good conversation.
You know, it's important that all of us government will
have a role, but community and families and individuals to
ensure that time the supports there.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Will you guarantee that if I ring you this time
next year, will you guarantee that the figures are going
to be better?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Well? I do hope. So that's what we're focused on.
We focus on this every day. That's why we've brought
the targets in the Workforce Plan. We announced about one
hundred and thirty seven million dollars of new funding into
mental health support this budget. So we are focused on that.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Why are we getting such a huge number of overdoses
in the last seven years, It's increased by eighty eight percent.
I wasn't going to ask you that question, but I've
just got it ringing in my head. Do you know
the answer to that? Is there an answer to that?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, Look to begin, I don't have a definitive answer
my assessment of that. It's quite a long time period.
I think the top of my head, twenty sixteen to
twenty twenty three, we have seen an increase of illicit
drugs come through the border. We do know there is
an increased risk of overdose through opioid and fentinal use,
(08:55):
so it is important that we focus on that. I'll
be releasing the new overdose Prevention Plan very soon. What
we want to do is focus on things like the looxone,
which is a drug that can be injected to someone
who's overdose to prevent that. I think we need more
timely New locksown than New Zealand. We also need better
(09:15):
alert system when we're experiencing overdoses due to who contaminated
drugs as well, and it is breaking down the barriers.
We're very good when we look at our needs we exchange.
We're world leading in that and having the harm reduction
services that people can come forward without feeling like they'll
be judged.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Matt Doosey, thank you very much for taking time. I
know it's a hard one for you, and I know
that you personally take the subject of this topic, this
issue that we've got very seriously, so I thank you
for the time and hopefully this time next year when
we talk, you'll be able to give us some better news.
Minister Health, Minister Mental Health, Minister Matt Doocy, thank you.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Thanks Nate.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks. There'd be Wellington from nine to am
we days, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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