November 25, 2025 • 21 mins
The National Party could join coalition partner NZ First and campaign on repealing the Regulatory Standards Act at the next election, deputy leader Nicola Willis says.
This is despite the law, which was pushed by the Act Party during coalition talks, being less than a month old, and having been passed into law with votes from both National and NZ First.
Speaking to Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills on Newstalk ZB, Willis said National had not “come up with what our party position will be after the election”.
“We haven’t ruled out repealing it either. We haven’t taken a position yet, but it’s not impossible that we would go to the campaign trail saying, ‘yes, we met our coalition commitment, we supported that into law, but actually we agree with the concerns of some people, it hasn’t operated as we’d hoped and we want to repeal it’.
“We haven’t come to a position yet, but we haven’t ruled it out.”
NZ First leader Winston Peters shocked the coalition last week when he said his party would campaign on repealing the law it had just helped to pass.
His position is that the coalition obliged his party to pass the law, but his party is free to repeal it in the next Parliament.
Willis said she was “comfortable” with this position.
“They joined the Cabinet, they used their votes to ensure it is passed into law – they did their bit,” Willis said.
Willis is not the only National MP to float repealing the law.
Last week, when her colleague Chris Bishop was asked what the party was thinking, he replied, “you’ll see our policy going into the election”.
“I’m not going to give you a commitment on National policy,” he said.
All three opposition parties say they will repeal the law if they have the numbers next term. Labour MP Duncan Webb has even submitted a member’s bill to the ballot which, if drawn, would give NZ First the opportunity to repeal the law this term of parliament.
Peters, however, described this as game-playing and said he would not be supporting the effort.
Act leader David Seymour attacked Peters’ about-turn on the law, saying it looked as though Peters was gearing up to join another Labour-led coalition, something Peters has said he would not do while Chris Hipkins was leader of the party.
The Regulatory Standards Act is designed to improve the quality of government regulation by establishing a set of principles for what constitutes “good regulation”.
Part of the controversy surrounding the law is the fact these principles are closely aligned to Act’s political worldview and do not constitute more universally recognised principles of good regulation.
The act is also controversial for the creation of a regulations board that acts as an assessor of compliance against these principles, although power to act on what the board says ultimately still rests with ministers and Parliament.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
At b As promised and as delivered. Minister of Finance,
Social Investments and Economic Growth, Nicola Willis joins me, it's
been a while, it.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Has been, and it's great to be back on your
show and to be talking with this important audience in Wellington.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Let's talk about Wellington. I mean the Regional Council's reform. Now,
I've been since I've started this job thinking, why the
hell do we have a regional council when we've got
a council, we've got a government. Why do we need
this extra layer? Taught me through it because it came
as a surprise.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, well, look you're not alone. I've had so many
Wellingtonians say to me their number one cost of living
concern is their rates bill. And then they say, and
we seem to have all of this duplication. We've got
the regional government doing some of the transport, We've got
the Wellington City Council doing some of the council work.
Then meanwhile we have multiple differents in the region with
(01:08):
all of this extra cost and red tape, Surely we
could simplify it, and you saw Portidur and Lower Heart
actually have referendum saying yeah, we'd be up for a
bit more simplification. So our proposal is basically to cut
out some of that duplication, some of that cost, but
do it in a way that is led by local communities.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Are we looking at getting bigger? Are we amalgamation is
going to be on the way? Is that sort of
on the cards for years?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
So look, the proposal is get the local meres around
the table. Have then replaced the regional counselors and instead
say what's best for our region. How do we deliver
the functions of regional council and local council in a
more simplified, streamlined way. They come up with a proposal.
Central government has a look at that proposal and says, yeah,
does that meet the test? Is it simpler? Will it
(01:52):
make sense for rate payers? Could at lower costs? If
it will, let's sign it off. And I think you'll
find some of those groups of meres they will say, look,
part of this needs to be amalgamation for our region
because that's what our rate pays need.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Okay, how do you guarantee it? Don't? We can the
environment oversight or shut out MILI. That's those sort of
that's really the only critics that are out there saying,
aren't they.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah, well, look, we've obviously still got to have law
about those environmental limits and still have responsibility for putting
those limits in place. We're of course replacing the Resource
Management Act completely and you'll see that before Christmas as well,
because I think a lot of New Zealanders would say, well,
the RIMA is successfully tied up heaps of small businesses
(02:35):
and property developers and builders and heaps of red tape
and slowed them down and added cost, but has it
really protected the environment that well? So we want to
completely overhaul that system as well. And while we're doing that,
let's also simplify the people and the governance that delivers it.
But yeah, we can protect the environment without having to
have people applying for consents every second minute and spending
(02:57):
hundreds of thousands on it.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Talk to me about Kiwi Savor. Your KEYI saver change
has moved us closer to Australia's supersystem, but many many
say it should have gone further. What are the next
steps and have you really thought of the cost thing
right now? Because we're still I mean, I know you're
going to tell me that we've got green shoots growing
like a forest, but we are still in tough times
(03:19):
and every cent counts, isn't it. A little bit more
comes out of my wag my wages, and as an
employee've got to pay a little bit more just makes
it tougher.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, look, totally get that. And there's no doubt for
many families right now, still making ends meat is challenging
and tough, and that's why we're so focused on getting
growth back into the economy so people can get a
hit again. What we did at the budget was we said,
even if you just focus on the here and now,
the reality is in the longer term, we want people
(03:49):
to have more comfortable retirements with better thist eggs. So
we said, let's gradually increase the default contribution rates for
key we saver, starting with the first increase next year
of just half a percent, and then wait another couple
of years for another half percent increase. That's so that
people have time to a asked and factor that in.
And what we announced at the weekend was let's keep
(04:10):
going in that direction with those gradual increases until we
reach a combined total of twelve percent, half from the employer,
half from the employee, a couple of protections in there. Nick,
We think that's really great for helping people with their retirement,
but we recognize sometimes people won't have the cash to
do that, so we're still allowing them in the first
couple of years to opt back to three percent if
(04:31):
that's all they can afford at that time.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean, you've openly National has openly been talking about
but the age of retirement, I mean in compulsories, no
compulsory making key we save your compulsory. I mean, is
there any more Is there work going on in the
background with that, because you know a lot of our
listeners don't have a problem with the age growing getting older.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Well, I'd start by saying universal superannuation is here to stay.
I think that that is an entitlement that working New
Zealanders need to know will continue into the future and
that they can look forward to. We're not like some
other countries in the world that means test that and
restraint it to one a few people, because it's something
that people when they enter their working life expect will
(05:13):
be available for them. At the other end of it,
what National has said, honestly over the past few elections
is let's get honest about the fact that the bill
for that is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, particularly
as our population ages, but also people are working for
longer and longer, living for longer and longer, and when
(05:33):
you look around the world, the retirement age is higher
than it is in New Zealand. So we've put the
case if we gradually increase this over time, superannuation becomes
more affordable. Now, we haven't determined our position for the
next election the National Party because part of that is
the detail of when you do that and how you
transition to that, because people who are, you know, sixty
(05:56):
right now deserve to know when you turn sixty five
it's going to be available for you.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
But it doesn't work that it doesn't it works when
you're about thirty that it starts changing.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So it's what's the transition period, what's the timing, and
those are discussions the National Party Caucus need to have
before we commit to our campaign position, but will be
really clear with voters.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But do you see the issue of someone with under
the new scheme some of that's thirty are they going
to retire with like half a million in their Key
we Save it. Do they really need the thousand dollars
a week on top of that, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I mean under the new scheme. Actually, if you're a
twenty one year old who's graduated and is on sixty
five thousand dollars and you contribute at the default rates,
over time, you'd have more like one point four million,
Big and nest egg. But also the other part of
it that I think is great is a bigger deposit
for your first home. Because Key we Save has been
(06:48):
a really successful tool for helping young people gather some
savings towards their first time. We want to see that
continue and look, universal superannuation is a compliment to that.
But over time I want more New Zealanders having more
freedom and choices in their retirement. I'm sure you have
some super innuitance call into the show telling you how
hard it can be just to live on super alone.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
One hundred percent one hundred No one could live on it. No,
let let's be unless you had your own nesty. Let's
be really on it.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
It's particularly difficult if you don't own your own home.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yes, and rates, I mean, I know you're trying to
do your on rates. But rates is now such a
killer that you know your super ain't even going to
cover your.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Rates, absolutely your rates and your insurance and all of
the costs that come with living. And so that's why
our vision is, let's make sure New Zealanders can have
better retirements in future. That requires planning right now, and
we're making the commitment. This is the kind of thing
you could put off forever. You could say, oh, now
it's not the right time. But the consequence of that
is that generations of New Zealanders won't have the great
(07:48):
retirements they deserve.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Let's talk about the regularly. What's the word? Can we
give you the word?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Real Regulatory pre Standards Standards Act.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Now we've seen Winston Peters and David seymore openly arguing,
even reversing their votes on the bills within days. Do
you trust New Zealand first or do you know? Do
you feel any concerned over that?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I feel really comfortable about it because we had a
coalition commitment to the Act party that we would pass
that Act, and New Zealand first held up their end
of the bargain. They joined the cabinet, ensured that they
gave their votes to that bill and it is now
in law, so.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
They just National stand on it.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I mean yeah, well, so what New Zealand First have
said is look, as a political party going into the
next election campaign, they will they will campaign to repeal
that act National. We haven't come up with what our
party position will be after.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
The election, so you could be as well, well.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
We haven't ruled out repealing it either.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Wow, that's not been talked about.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Well, we haven't taken a position yet, but it's not
impossible that we would go to the campaign trail saying yes,
we met our coalition commitment, we supported that into law,
but actually we agree with the concerns of some people.
It hasn't operated as we hoped and we want to
repel it. We haven't come to a position yet, but
we're not ruling it out.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Wow. Well she's come in. She's having a chat Finance
Minister Nichola Willis. You know she said she'd be turned
up and she's turned up. And by the way, you
look amazing. I mean, I mean all the stress and
all the pressure, I mean, life must be really tough.
I mean, you've got you've got an amazing family, young kids.
(09:30):
I still call them young kids.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I mean a couple of teenagers now, but.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's still young kids.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
How tough has it been?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Well? Look, I think the part of this job that
is hardest is seeing those New Zealanders who have had
their lives really impacted by the downturn in the economy.
People who are struggling to get by, who watched prices
go very high with all of that inflation. Maybe their
mortgage went out big time because of the hikes and
(09:58):
interest rates, some of whom have lost some hours at work,
others have lost their jobs. And my job is to
fix this economy to do better for them. And I
feel them on my conscience every day because for every newation.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
You feel it because I mean I were talking to
you at prefab and you said to me, looked at me,
and you were talking to me. You were talking to
me as a person saying, hey, hold on, hold on
to next year, and you're going to be okay. Nothing
has changed. I mean, I know that it feels. And
I was talking to someone in a heavy business decision
yesterday and I said, look, it does feel like it's coming.
(10:32):
You know it's coming, right, give me some more time
to make it work. And they say we're running out
of time.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Well, I'm really sorry that it hasn't changed for you,
and I'm realistic about the fact that there are other
New Zealanders in your position, and I do feel that
very deeply, because the reason I'm doing this job is
I believe that this can be a country and an
economy that delivers much better opportunities for business people, for workers,
for families. But it's been a hard job turning it around.
(11:01):
And I don't mean a hard job just for me
in the cabinet. I mean for all the key weis
who really held on tight during what's been a very
difficult recovery. Now you know, I can talk to you
about what the economists are saying, and what the forecasts
are saying, what the data is saying. But unless you
feel it in your life, I get it, you don't
have an obligation to believe me. So that's what motivates
(11:23):
me each day is let's work up. Let's make sure
we've pushed every button, We've pulled every lever, we're doing
everything we can to get this economy healthy so that
those people, when I look them in the eye, they
can say to me, actually, you know what it is
starting to get a bit easier, it is starting to
get a bit better. That's made a difference for me.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And you know what, that makes me feel a bit
better that you, as the Finance Minister, understand what people
are going through, because we have so often seen both
you and Christopher Luxean staying up and saying, look, haters
will be haters and we're okay, everything's all right, and
get over yourself, and that kind of makes it harder
for people that are struggling. Let's move on, ocr and
(12:00):
as a text god off, if you hit the text hit.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
No, I'll get a little notification just ahead of there for.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Sure, how soon before, how soon before?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Half an hour? An hour beforehand? Typically and obviously I
have to keep that information to myself because it's very markets.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Who will you talk to about it? When you talk
when you read Christopher to.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Tell the governor of the Reserve Bank Christian hawks baby
and governor of no.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
But I'm saying, who will you tell? What you because
you'll be the first as Minister.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Of finer quick word with my press sext so we
can make sure we've got a press statement ready to go.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Of cosse you better trust him, do you tell him.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, oh, look absolutely, Will you tell him to be trusted?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Look, I may do, that's not good enough. What do
you think is going to happen?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Well, look, I obviously am not able to comment on
the decisions of the Reserve Bank, which are independent from me. However,
what the banks and the markets have already forecast and
predicted is that there would be another twenty five Will
you face point cut today?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Will you be sorry for talking over you? It's really rudy.
Will you be annoyed if it doesn't come down?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
I think that the expectation is very broad that it
will come down today, to the extent that some banks
have already priced that into the interest rates that they're offering.
So that does seem to be the expectation, and so
I will await the announcement. But look, you know generally
the markets, when they they have this much consensus, there's
(13:24):
a reason for that.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Now, person, this is a personal question. Are you going
to run for the what's now what's it called now?
The Northern Wood? Because if you do, look at this,
look at the this is incredible, you'd be Aisha Viral,
Tamith Paul, and Nikola Willis now you're smiling, so you
obviously have thought about it, because I didn't put it
in the questions that I seen you, so you didn't
(13:45):
know I was going to ask you, But I just
thought about it this morning. Have you made your decision
on that yet?
Speaker 3 (13:50):
No, I haven't, and that's a decision that partly sits
with the National Party and its members who haven't gone
to a selection process for that electorate yet.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Do you want to look.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I haven't made a decision, Nick. So that's why I'm smiling,
because it's one of those questions where I know that
the answer I'm going to give you is going to
frustrate you because I haven't made a decision yet.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
No.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
But I mean if you you've made a decision, you'd
say I've made a decision. I'm not telling you in
a little pimpop welling to radio station. You're not going
to be first. I'm going to be on TV one
or on Sunday night when I announce it.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
I haven't made a decision yet, But I would just
say on a personal note that I do feel for
greg O Connor, my old opponent, because he obviously lost
that selection Ty Scheverril. He has been a constituent representative
in Wellington for a few years now, And that's that's
(14:41):
tough for.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
What will make that decision? What's what's the trigger for
you making that decision? Will it be your family? Will
it be because the time of running and all that
stuff again? And I would wouldn't look too good to
get beaten by Aishavia or tamoth Aboard either, would it look?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
The critical thing for me always and entering politics has
been how can I have the biggest impact on New
Zealand positive difference for good and for me? The vehicle
I've chosen to do that through is the National Party.
So then the question for me is always what's the
best way I can serve the National Party and the
people who back us. So that's the filter I look
at everything through.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You've promised two hundred and forty thousand new jobs and
major growth while also cutting spending and running a large deficit.
By what date will the unemployment for when are we
going to get some sort of really obvious signs that
we are heading in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Well, the forecasts vary on that question, and I don't
have a particular crystal ball on it. What we know
as a fact is that typically the order of things
goes like this, First get inflation under control, then get
interest rates coming down, so tick tick, we're there. Then
get growth coming back. And we had six months of
pretty solid growth, but obviously a very difficult second quarter,
(15:56):
although economists are saying it's coming back. And then once
that's sustained low inflation, lower interest rates, growth, then unemployment
will drop. Interestingly, unemployment hasn't got as high as had
been forecast prior to the election, so there's always a
question about does that mean it still does get a
(16:17):
little bit higher, or if we reached the peak. You know,
you see mixed data. Some people are saying, well, there
are more job ads now, there's more people moving from
part time to full time work. Equally, I'm conscious that
there are still firms who are struggling. So I would
expect that by next year we will certainly be seeing
that unemployment rate come down.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Are you looking I mean you've we've heard labor make
a stand on capital gains tax I mean, are you
looking at any new taxes between now and the next term. No.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Look, the fundamental difference between labor and national on one
level is that we trust New Zealanders with their own money.
Labor always dreaming up new ways to spend New Zealander's
money for them, and they have a track record of
first increasing the spending in the debt and then coming
after people with new taxes. And that's all the CGT
is as far as I'm concerned. It's a capital gain
(17:06):
tax designed to ensure that labor can spend more of
other people's money. The last thing New Zealanders need right
now is tax hikes. I'm proud we delivered tax reduction.
You know a lot of families would be worse off
now if they hadn't had that relief in their back
pocket last year.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So you can promise between now and the election, no
new taxes and no increases in taxes. Could I push
that Barreler.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
We're not planning new taxes. We are not planning increases
in taxes.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Can I just quickly ask you before you go about
your Social Investment fund? Nearly a quarter of the Social
Investment Fund is going to go You've just already given
that out. You're going to give it to children with
parents in prison. Why was this group so important to
you personally? Because that's quite a major amount to put
in one go.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, look three groups. Kids with parents in prison, kids
whose parents were in OT care or in state care
at some point in their life, and kids who have
been stood down from school before the age of thirteen.
The reason we're focused on those groups is we know
from all of the research, the evidence, the data, that
kids who've got those circumstances are the most likely to
(18:11):
have really troubled lives. So those are, unfortunately, by the stats,
the kids who are more likely to end up truant
from school, not achieving a qualification, ending up on a
benefit frankly engaging and crime, ending up on the youth
justice system, ending up in prison, ending up as being
New Zealanders who are unemployed, and victimizing others. Now, that's
not the case for all of them. So please don't
(18:32):
get me wrong. I'm not saying that every child on
those circumstances will end up that way. But we know
that with those kids with those challenges, if we intervene
early and help them, we can make a massive difference.
Those can be kids who can have great lives. They
can do well at school, they can get good jobs,
they can contribute to their family and their community. Sometimes
what they need is a little bit of extra early intervention,
(18:55):
effective help from an organization that knows what it's doing.
The Social Investment Fund is about saying, let's identify the
organizations that can do that work, do it effectively, let's
measure the outcome they have. Make that early instead of
giving the taxpayer bill for a prison sentence later on.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
How confident are you personally? I'll make this my last question.
How confident are you that next year is going to
be considerably because it needs to be considerably. It doesn't
need green shoots, we need we need a forest. You
know next year? Do you reckon that I'm dreaming.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
No, I don't, because you're seeing it come through. With
all of the economists so are independent from me. You
don't have any political barrow to push. You're seeing it
increasingly from exporters, from manufacturers, from other businesses. They're saying
things are looking up and they're feeling more positive about
next year than they did about this year. And that's
(19:51):
absolutely what we want. And the conditions are right. We've
got inflation under control, interstrates have come down dramatically. People
are actually starting to feel that extra cash coming through
the economy. Fundamentally, we've got a government that's pushing along
some big things, those fast track projects, those infrast structure projects.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
That's all happening, and we've got an election, so you've
got to get your lollies in your pan bag, don't you.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
You know that I am not a lolly scrambler because
part of the ancient that I've made to voters that
my party is made to voters as we will be
responsible with the government's finances because we're not going to
pretend that debt is free. We actually have respect for you,
your kids, your grandkids. We are not going to in debt.
We're not going to put this country in the hock
(20:35):
to overseas lenders who put us in a really difficult
position in future. So we'll manage responsibly and we'll invest
in the things that make a difference.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
You've almost convinced me I should come. She got me,
got me. I actually believe I believe you got me.
Minister of Finance, Social Investments and Economic Growth and Wellingtonian
Nicola Willis, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks
thank you for for speaking to the people the region
(21:04):
of Wellington and who else is listening, because we know
a lot of people listen listen all over the country.
Thank you, appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
At b As promised and as delivered. Minister of Finance,
Social Investments and Economic Growth, Nicola Willis joins me, it's
been a while, it.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Has been, and it's great to be back on your
show and to be talking with this important audience in Wellington.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Let's talk about Wellington. I mean the Regional Council's reform. Now,
I've been since I've started this job thinking, why the
hell do we have a regional council when we've got
a council, we've got a government. Why do we need
this extra layer? Taught me through it because it came
as a surprise.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, well, look you're not alone. I've had so many
Wellingtonians say to me their number one cost of living
concern is their rates bill. And then they say, and
we seem to have all of this duplication. We've got
the regional government doing some of the transport, We've got
the Wellington City Council doing some of the council work.
Then meanwhile we have multiple differents in the region with
(01:08):
all of this extra cost and red tape, Surely we
could simplify it, and you saw Portidur and Lower Heart
actually have referendum saying yeah, we'd be up for a
bit more simplification. So our proposal is basically to cut
out some of that duplication, some of that cost, but
do it in a way that is led by local communities.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Are we looking at getting bigger? Are we amalgamation is
going to be on the way? Is that sort of
on the cards for years?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
So look, the proposal is get the local meres around
the table. Have then replaced the regional counselors and instead
say what's best for our region. How do we deliver
the functions of regional council and local council in a
more simplified, streamlined way. They come up with a proposal.
Central government has a look at that proposal and says, yeah,
does that meet the test? Is it simpler? Will it
(01:52):
make sense for rate payers? Could at lower costs? If
it will, let's sign it off. And I think you'll
find some of those groups of meres they will say, look,
part of this needs to be amalgamation for our region
because that's what our rate pays need.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Okay, how do you guarantee it? Don't? We can the
environment oversight or shut out MILI. That's those sort of
that's really the only critics that are out there saying,
aren't they.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah, well, look, we've obviously still got to have law
about those environmental limits and still have responsibility for putting
those limits in place. We're of course replacing the Resource
Management Act completely and you'll see that before Christmas as well,
because I think a lot of New Zealanders would say, well,
the RIMA is successfully tied up heaps of small businesses
(02:35):
and property developers and builders and heaps of red tape
and slowed them down and added cost, but has it
really protected the environment that well? So we want to
completely overhaul that system as well. And while we're doing that,
let's also simplify the people and the governance that delivers it.
But yeah, we can protect the environment without having to
have people applying for consents every second minute and spending
(02:57):
hundreds of thousands on it.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Talk to me about Kiwi Savor. Your KEYI saver change
has moved us closer to Australia's supersystem, but many many
say it should have gone further. What are the next
steps and have you really thought of the cost thing
right now? Because we're still I mean, I know you're
going to tell me that we've got green shoots growing
like a forest, but we are still in tough times
(03:19):
and every cent counts, isn't it. A little bit more
comes out of my wag my wages, and as an
employee've got to pay a little bit more just makes
it tougher.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, look, totally get that. And there's no doubt for
many families right now, still making ends meat is challenging
and tough, and that's why we're so focused on getting
growth back into the economy so people can get a
hit again. What we did at the budget was we said,
even if you just focus on the here and now,
the reality is in the longer term, we want people
(03:49):
to have more comfortable retirements with better thist eggs. So
we said, let's gradually increase the default contribution rates for
key we saver, starting with the first increase next year
of just half a percent, and then wait another couple
of years for another half percent increase. That's so that
people have time to a asked and factor that in.
And what we announced at the weekend was let's keep
(04:10):
going in that direction with those gradual increases until we
reach a combined total of twelve percent, half from the employer,
half from the employee, a couple of protections in there. Nick,
We think that's really great for helping people with their retirement,
but we recognize sometimes people won't have the cash to
do that, so we're still allowing them in the first
couple of years to opt back to three percent if
(04:31):
that's all they can afford at that time.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean, you've openly National has openly been talking about
but the age of retirement, I mean in compulsories, no
compulsory making key we save your compulsory. I mean, is
there any more Is there work going on in the
background with that, because you know a lot of our
listeners don't have a problem with the age growing getting older.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Well, I'd start by saying universal superannuation is here to stay.
I think that that is an entitlement that working New
Zealanders need to know will continue into the future and
that they can look forward to. We're not like some
other countries in the world that means test that and
restraint it to one a few people, because it's something
that people when they enter their working life expect will
(05:13):
be available for them. At the other end of it,
what National has said, honestly over the past few elections
is let's get honest about the fact that the bill
for that is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, particularly
as our population ages, but also people are working for
longer and longer, living for longer and longer, and when
(05:33):
you look around the world, the retirement age is higher
than it is in New Zealand. So we've put the
case if we gradually increase this over time, superannuation becomes
more affordable. Now, we haven't determined our position for the
next election the National Party because part of that is
the detail of when you do that and how you
transition to that, because people who are, you know, sixty
(05:56):
right now deserve to know when you turn sixty five
it's going to be available for you.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
But it doesn't work that it doesn't it works when
you're about thirty that it starts changing.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So it's what's the transition period, what's the timing, and
those are discussions the National Party Caucus need to have
before we commit to our campaign position, but will be
really clear with voters.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But do you see the issue of someone with under
the new scheme some of that's thirty are they going
to retire with like half a million in their Key
we Save it. Do they really need the thousand dollars
a week on top of that, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I mean under the new scheme. Actually, if you're a
twenty one year old who's graduated and is on sixty
five thousand dollars and you contribute at the default rates,
over time, you'd have more like one point four million,
Big and nest egg. But also the other part of
it that I think is great is a bigger deposit
for your first home. Because Key we Save has been
(06:48):
a really successful tool for helping young people gather some
savings towards their first time. We want to see that
continue and look, universal superannuation is a compliment to that.
But over time I want more New Zealanders having more
freedom and choices in their retirement. I'm sure you have
some super innuitance call into the show telling you how
hard it can be just to live on super alone.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
One hundred percent one hundred No one could live on it. No,
let let's be unless you had your own nesty. Let's
be really on it.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
It's particularly difficult if you don't own your own home.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yes, and rates, I mean, I know you're trying to
do your on rates. But rates is now such a
killer that you know your super ain't even going to
cover your.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Rates, absolutely your rates and your insurance and all of
the costs that come with living. And so that's why
our vision is, let's make sure New Zealanders can have
better retirements in future. That requires planning right now, and
we're making the commitment. This is the kind of thing
you could put off forever. You could say, oh, now
it's not the right time. But the consequence of that
is that generations of New Zealanders won't have the great
(07:48):
retirements they deserve.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Let's talk about the regularly. What's the word? Can we
give you the word?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Real Regulatory pre Standards Standards Act.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Now we've seen Winston Peters and David seymore openly arguing,
even reversing their votes on the bills within days. Do
you trust New Zealand first or do you know? Do
you feel any concerned over that?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I feel really comfortable about it because we had a
coalition commitment to the Act party that we would pass
that Act, and New Zealand first held up their end
of the bargain. They joined the cabinet, ensured that they
gave their votes to that bill and it is now
in law, so.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
They just National stand on it.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I mean yeah, well, so what New Zealand First have
said is look, as a political party going into the
next election campaign, they will they will campaign to repeal
that act National. We haven't come up with what our
party position will be after.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
The election, so you could be as well, well.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
We haven't ruled out repealing it either.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Wow, that's not been talked about.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Well, we haven't taken a position yet, but it's not
impossible that we would go to the campaign trail saying yes,
we met our coalition commitment, we supported that into law,
but actually we agree with the concerns of some people.
It hasn't operated as we hoped and we want to
repel it. We haven't come to a position yet, but
we're not ruling it out.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Wow. Well she's come in. She's having a chat Finance
Minister Nichola Willis. You know she said she'd be turned
up and she's turned up. And by the way, you
look amazing. I mean, I mean all the stress and
all the pressure, I mean, life must be really tough.
I mean, you've got you've got an amazing family, young kids.
(09:30):
I still call them young kids.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I mean a couple of teenagers now, but.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's still young kids.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
How tough has it been?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Well? Look, I think the part of this job that
is hardest is seeing those New Zealanders who have had
their lives really impacted by the downturn in the economy.
People who are struggling to get by, who watched prices
go very high with all of that inflation. Maybe their
mortgage went out big time because of the hikes and
(09:58):
interest rates, some of whom have lost some hours at work,
others have lost their jobs. And my job is to
fix this economy to do better for them. And I
feel them on my conscience every day because for every newation.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
You feel it because I mean I were talking to
you at prefab and you said to me, looked at me,
and you were talking to me. You were talking to
me as a person saying, hey, hold on, hold on
to next year, and you're going to be okay. Nothing
has changed. I mean, I know that it feels. And
I was talking to someone in a heavy business decision
yesterday and I said, look, it does feel like it's coming.
(10:32):
You know it's coming, right, give me some more time
to make it work. And they say we're running out
of time.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Well, I'm really sorry that it hasn't changed for you,
and I'm realistic about the fact that there are other
New Zealanders in your position, and I do feel that
very deeply, because the reason I'm doing this job is
I believe that this can be a country and an
economy that delivers much better opportunities for business people, for workers,
for families. But it's been a hard job turning it around.
(11:01):
And I don't mean a hard job just for me
in the cabinet. I mean for all the key weis
who really held on tight during what's been a very
difficult recovery. Now you know, I can talk to you
about what the economists are saying, and what the forecasts
are saying, what the data is saying. But unless you
feel it in your life, I get it, you don't
have an obligation to believe me. So that's what motivates
(11:23):
me each day is let's work up. Let's make sure
we've pushed every button, We've pulled every lever, we're doing
everything we can to get this economy healthy so that
those people, when I look them in the eye, they
can say to me, actually, you know what it is
starting to get a bit easier, it is starting to
get a bit better. That's made a difference for me.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And you know what, that makes me feel a bit
better that you, as the Finance Minister, understand what people
are going through, because we have so often seen both
you and Christopher Luxean staying up and saying, look, haters
will be haters and we're okay, everything's all right, and
get over yourself, and that kind of makes it harder
for people that are struggling. Let's move on, ocr and
(12:00):
as a text god off, if you hit the text hit.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
No, I'll get a little notification just ahead of there for.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Sure, how soon before, how soon before?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Half an hour? An hour beforehand? Typically and obviously I
have to keep that information to myself because it's very markets.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Who will you talk to about it? When you talk
when you read Christopher to.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Tell the governor of the Reserve Bank Christian hawks baby
and governor of no.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
But I'm saying, who will you tell? What you because
you'll be the first as Minister.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Of finer quick word with my press sext so we
can make sure we've got a press statement ready to go.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Of cosse you better trust him, do you tell him.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, oh, look absolutely, Will you tell him to be trusted?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Look, I may do, that's not good enough. What do
you think is going to happen?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Well, look, I obviously am not able to comment on
the decisions of the Reserve Bank, which are independent from me. However,
what the banks and the markets have already forecast and
predicted is that there would be another twenty five Will
you face point cut today?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Will you be sorry for talking over you? It's really rudy.
Will you be annoyed if it doesn't come down?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
I think that the expectation is very broad that it
will come down today, to the extent that some banks
have already priced that into the interest rates that they're offering.
So that does seem to be the expectation, and so
I will await the announcement. But look, you know generally
the markets, when they they have this much consensus, there's
(13:24):
a reason for that.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Now, person, this is a personal question. Are you going
to run for the what's now what's it called now?
The Northern Wood? Because if you do, look at this,
look at the this is incredible, you'd be Aisha Viral,
Tamith Paul, and Nikola Willis now you're smiling, so you
obviously have thought about it, because I didn't put it
in the questions that I seen you, so you didn't
(13:45):
know I was going to ask you, But I just
thought about it this morning. Have you made your decision
on that yet?
Speaker 3 (13:50):
No, I haven't, and that's a decision that partly sits
with the National Party and its members who haven't gone
to a selection process for that electorate yet.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Do you want to look.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I haven't made a decision, Nick. So that's why I'm smiling,
because it's one of those questions where I know that
the answer I'm going to give you is going to
frustrate you because I haven't made a decision yet.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
No.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
But I mean if you you've made a decision, you'd
say I've made a decision. I'm not telling you in
a little pimpop welling to radio station. You're not going
to be first. I'm going to be on TV one
or on Sunday night when I announce it.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
I haven't made a decision yet, But I would just
say on a personal note that I do feel for
greg O Connor, my old opponent, because he obviously lost
that selection Ty Scheverril. He has been a constituent representative
in Wellington for a few years now, And that's that's
(14:41):
tough for.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
What will make that decision? What's what's the trigger for
you making that decision? Will it be your family? Will
it be because the time of running and all that
stuff again? And I would wouldn't look too good to
get beaten by Aishavia or tamoth Aboard either, would it look?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
The critical thing for me always and entering politics has
been how can I have the biggest impact on New
Zealand positive difference for good and for me? The vehicle
I've chosen to do that through is the National Party.
So then the question for me is always what's the
best way I can serve the National Party and the
people who back us. So that's the filter I look
at everything through.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You've promised two hundred and forty thousand new jobs and
major growth while also cutting spending and running a large deficit.
By what date will the unemployment for when are we
going to get some sort of really obvious signs that
we are heading in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Well, the forecasts vary on that question, and I don't
have a particular crystal ball on it. What we know
as a fact is that typically the order of things
goes like this, First get inflation under control, then get
interest rates coming down, so tick tick, we're there. Then
get growth coming back. And we had six months of
pretty solid growth, but obviously a very difficult second quarter,
(15:56):
although economists are saying it's coming back. And then once
that's sustained low inflation, lower interest rates, growth, then unemployment
will drop. Interestingly, unemployment hasn't got as high as had
been forecast prior to the election, so there's always a
question about does that mean it still does get a
(16:17):
little bit higher, or if we reached the peak. You know,
you see mixed data. Some people are saying, well, there
are more job ads now, there's more people moving from
part time to full time work. Equally, I'm conscious that
there are still firms who are struggling. So I would
expect that by next year we will certainly be seeing
that unemployment rate come down.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Are you looking I mean you've we've heard labor make
a stand on capital gains tax I mean, are you
looking at any new taxes between now and the next term. No.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Look, the fundamental difference between labor and national on one
level is that we trust New Zealanders with their own money.
Labor always dreaming up new ways to spend New Zealander's
money for them, and they have a track record of
first increasing the spending in the debt and then coming
after people with new taxes. And that's all the CGT
is as far as I'm concerned. It's a capital gain
(17:06):
tax designed to ensure that labor can spend more of
other people's money. The last thing New Zealanders need right
now is tax hikes. I'm proud we delivered tax reduction.
You know a lot of families would be worse off
now if they hadn't had that relief in their back
pocket last year.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So you can promise between now and the election, no
new taxes and no increases in taxes. Could I push
that Barreler.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
We're not planning new taxes. We are not planning increases
in taxes.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Can I just quickly ask you before you go about
your Social Investment fund? Nearly a quarter of the Social
Investment Fund is going to go You've just already given
that out. You're going to give it to children with
parents in prison. Why was this group so important to
you personally? Because that's quite a major amount to put
in one go.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, look three groups. Kids with parents in prison, kids
whose parents were in OT care or in state care
at some point in their life, and kids who have
been stood down from school before the age of thirteen.
The reason we're focused on those groups is we know
from all of the research, the evidence, the data, that
kids who've got those circumstances are the most likely to
(18:11):
have really troubled lives. So those are, unfortunately, by the stats,
the kids who are more likely to end up truant
from school, not achieving a qualification, ending up on a
benefit frankly engaging and crime, ending up on the youth
justice system, ending up in prison, ending up as being
New Zealanders who are unemployed, and victimizing others. Now, that's
not the case for all of them. So please don't
(18:32):
get me wrong. I'm not saying that every child on
those circumstances will end up that way. But we know
that with those kids with those challenges, if we intervene
early and help them, we can make a massive difference.
Those can be kids who can have great lives. They
can do well at school, they can get good jobs,
they can contribute to their family and their community. Sometimes
what they need is a little bit of extra early intervention,
(18:55):
effective help from an organization that knows what it's doing.
The Social Investment Fund is about saying, let's identify the
organizations that can do that work, do it effectively, let's
measure the outcome they have. Make that early instead of
giving the taxpayer bill for a prison sentence later on.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
How confident are you personally? I'll make this my last question.
How confident are you that next year is going to
be considerably because it needs to be considerably. It doesn't
need green shoots, we need we need a forest. You
know next year? Do you reckon that I'm dreaming.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
No, I don't, because you're seeing it come through. With
all of the economists so are independent from me. You
don't have any political barrow to push. You're seeing it
increasingly from exporters, from manufacturers, from other businesses. They're saying
things are looking up and they're feeling more positive about
next year than they did about this year. And that's
(19:51):
absolutely what we want. And the conditions are right. We've
got inflation under control, interstrates have come down dramatically. People
are actually starting to feel that extra cash coming through
the economy. Fundamentally, we've got a government that's pushing along
some big things, those fast track projects, those infrast structure projects.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
That's all happening, and we've got an election, so you've
got to get your lollies in your pan bag, don't you.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
You know that I am not a lolly scrambler because
part of the ancient that I've made to voters that
my party is made to voters as we will be
responsible with the government's finances because we're not going to
pretend that debt is free. We actually have respect for you,
your kids, your grandkids. We are not going to in debt.
We're not going to put this country in the hock
(20:35):
to overseas lenders who put us in a really difficult
position in future. So we'll manage responsibly and we'll invest
in the things that make a difference.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
You've almost convinced me I should come. She got me,
got me. I actually believe I believe you got me.
Minister of Finance, Social Investments and Economic Growth and Wellingtonian
Nicola Willis, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks
thank you for for speaking to the people the region
(21:04):
of Wellington and who else is listening, because we know
a lot of people listen listen all over the country.
Thank you, appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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