February 19, 2025 • 21 mins
An investigation into Census data provided to third-party organisations has found there weren't enough safeguards around the data - and now there are fears it will impact Kiwis trust in the Census. Will it?
Also, there are calls for a review of Destiny Church's charitable status after a protest against a Rainbow story time event in Auckland over the weekend. Is it time for a wide-ranging review of charity settings, and should the church have charity status?
To answer those questions, Labour's Health and Wellington issues spokeswoman Ayesha Verrall and National's Wairarapa MP Mike Butterick joined Nick Mills for Politics Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Adam Cooperdad's News Talks, Heavy News and Sports of
five past eleven Wellington Mornings for the Nick Mills is
back next with Politics Thursday featuring Iis Scheverral and Mike Butterick.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
News Talk Sedley, Wellington Times.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Save the traffic job the weather waffle with Panasonic air
conditioners are good some morning. Looking at the Urban Motorway,
you're going to hit heavy traffic there. From Bowen Street
Rehddiford Street. We're heading up towards Adelaide Road slow at times,
State Highway one flowing well at State Higway fifty nine
or the book at to obey both ways a moderate
to heavy run. It is all due to roadworks. Take controls.
(00:46):
Stay cool with Panasonic, the only air conditioner with nano
X air purification.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Weather with Tommy's Property Management, Property Management, the Innovative Way.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Your forecast for the next few days in the Wellington region.
It all looks very nice today, fine with norwesterlies. The
wind a bit stronger today and tomorrow, but you're getting
up into the early to mid twenties Friday's forecast is similar,
little bit more clapp.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Focusing in on the issues that matter. Politics Thursday on
Willington Mornings, News Talks it be.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
Shine, can you make rat show? Joining us for politics Thursdays,
flavours Health and Wellington's Issues Spokeswoman Spokesperson I Shaverel, Good morning, Ice, wedding.
That great to be here, Nice to have you here,
and nationals wire apper MP, Mike Butterick, Good morning, Mike, Mike. Hello, Mike?
(01:42):
Are you there? Mike? Mike is not there? Maybe something's
going on here, Mike's not here, Mike? Are you there? Mike? Hello? Hello?
Are We're just trying to get hold of Mike. Meanwhile,
is he there? Mike? Are you there?
Speaker 6 (02:00):
Can you hear me?
Speaker 5 (02:01):
I can now? Thank God?
Speaker 6 (02:03):
Don't you love technology? Good morning?
Speaker 5 (02:06):
I'm very good on technical stuff too, but normally.
Speaker 6 (02:10):
Was on these you are because I'm not out of
my wheelhouse.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
All right, let's start by talking about the OCA. Great
news yesterday, another fifty points cut, very very good news. Issha,
what are you thinking? Are we getting there?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
It's really welcome news, particularly for borrowers, people with a mortgage.
But you know, these rates change because the economy has
been slowed down to achieve that change. So while we,
you know, welcome that good news, the bad news is
that unemployment is part of how that economic slowdown occurred.
(02:45):
And you can see that there's a lot of people
leaving the country as well, one hundred and twenty eight
thousand departures in the in the last last year. So
that's what that's that's the mix of good and bad
news in this in this package. And I think looking forward,
still some uncertainty, particularly internationally, about what will happen in
the future, So wouldn't be celebrating yet.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Do you are you hearing in the community about people
still doing it tough? Is it still doing it tough?
I mean, I know my own situation, so I'm doing
it tough. But are people across the community doing it tough?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
That's right, And I think one of the well a
lot of job and security out there at the moment.
Unemployment is high, so people who are in work, who
do have mortgages still won't necessarily feel confident about their situation.
And I know Adrian Or's comments that even though inflation
is coming down, which is what permits the rate cut,
the level of prices people are facing are still quite high.
(03:40):
Particularly you know, rates is an example that all of
us are feeling.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Mike, let's talk the good news side of it. I mean, yes,
we saw A and Z drop some I think one
of their loans to under five percent. I mean, that's
got to be exciting. It is a good news story.
But but but but we aren't getting there, are we?
Speaker 6 (04:00):
Oh? Look, I think, first thing, it is good. It
is good news, right, and we've heard about it was
likely to be fifty basis points and it's actually happened,
So that's good. And it's actually I think it's not
the first time I've been on the show, and we've
we've just had a rake cup as well, so I think.
And if you listen to the narrative from a reserve bank,
you know, in terms of where they're seeing things going,
(04:22):
you know, they're talking further reductions this year and employment
to pick up in the second half of the year.
But ultimately, look, this is good news. It's good news
for anyone with a mortgage and you know, yep, it'll
allow them to you know, pay that, but also they
might go out and spend a bit more in their
community and you know, put more money, money in people's pockets,
more jobs, more opportunities for people. And and I've talked
(04:45):
before previously as well and about it's about confidence and
it will deliver confidence. And it's interesting fed Farmers did
a Federative Farmers did a survey of the members very
recently and it was the largest increase in confidence since
they've started that survey in about her nineteen year period,
you know. And they're going to pay a big part
(05:05):
in their recovery and our economic card growth. And so
that's all good stuff because it'll start filtering through our
towns and into our cities as well. So a lot
it's really good news.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
I want to talk to you both about the inquiry
and to step the steps of government agencies took to
ensure personal census data collected that the Manuere and Maria
could be misused. It has found that the agencies failed
to properly protect it and now the status New Zealand
Boss won't be returning. Sure, I have a real problem
about this information getting out there. How much of an
(05:38):
impact is just going to have in trust in the
thing called the census.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
You're exactly right, Nack. We need the census in order
to get the information as government so we know where
to put schools and hospitals and provide good public services.
And yet in New Zealand and around the world, we're
seeing a drop off in the number of people who
want to complete that census. And that's a real shame
because that means that not all our people are counting
(06:02):
in our statistics. And we know from the last cens
is that one of the issues here was trust. People
didn't some people are losing trust in government and unfortunately
this breach of trust just makes it even even worse.
So I think it's terrible. I'm pleased that there has
(06:23):
been accountability from the Chief Executive Officer of the Department
of Statistics, and I think you know that's but the
other findings in terms of making sure the process has
improved really important.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Mike. How damaging is this?
Speaker 6 (06:38):
I agree with what I should said. The census data
that we get is really really important, and you know,
I'm not you know, that's how that's how we know
where to build our skills, where to do all these things,
and looks it's not you can't sugarcot. It's an unacceptable
breach of public trust. And you know that goes to
the heart of the confidence in our democratic processes and
(06:59):
our institutions, and it's you know, it is not acceptable.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
I should do you think there should be some serious
questions about whether the elect at the time of the
Moralesy was fair.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, we raised concerns with the Electoral Commission at the
time and but nothing was done on the basis of
our concerns. The Electoral Commissioner accepted it failed failed to
manage a perceived conflict of interest. So you know, I
feel for Perna who narrowly lost that six forty six
(07:33):
forty that's still tiny margin. We've got to go back
next time.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's terrible, Mike, What are your thoughts on that,
because you know, realistically there's there's something not quite right here.
Speaker 6 (07:45):
Yeah. Look, I guess you know there was you know,
there's there's been some complaints made obviously, and I'm sure
that's probably going to go through a process. But again, Nick,
it comes back to people need to have trust. They
need to have trust that their data is protected, they
need to have trusted everything is straight you know, straight up,
(08:06):
and don't look that's really what I'm going to make
sure that this sort of stuff does not happen again.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
I mean, this is pretty clear that trust has been broken, though,
isn't it really?
Speaker 6 (08:13):
Yeah, that's right, and it's unacceptable, completely unacceptable.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
No, okay, Acting Government Departments Public Service Commissioner Sir Brian
Roach says that discussion is needed on whether we have
too many government departments and whether some could be disestablished
or merged to make them more efficient. Should do you
have any thoughts on how many government departments we should
have or have it? Because I'll just show you this
(08:37):
piece of this booklet. It's seventeen pages long of government departments.
Surely that we've got too many?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, well, I think if we I thought Brian Roch
was right to say, if we were starting with a
blank sheet of paper, we wouldn't end up end up here.
And you know, in some of the portfolios I held,
I certainly wanted to see things rationalized a bit. I
don't know why we have kniewher and a separate met service,
for example. And there's probably scope for some rationalization in
(09:04):
some of the science departments, as the government now proposes
as well. However, it's all about how you do it
and you see what science Sadly, they're just going and
blindly cutting and some some of the scientists that callahan
innovation are moving on and we're just losing all that talent.
So the I think just approaching this from a cost
(09:25):
cutting perspective is the wrong way to go about it.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
Mike, how much money could we save here? Could we
cut some departments and save some serious money here?
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Look, I'm that's really speculatives, but I think the key
point is, Look, if you keep doing the same thing
the same way, you always get the same result. So
you know, it's always healthy to examine the way that
we operate because it should be about outcomes and value
for money, for tax powers money. So look, I think
it's very healthy that the subject's being approached, and you know,
(09:56):
it's a good opportunity to think critically about how the
public service is set up and when it's delivering and
is it delivering to its potential?
Speaker 5 (10:05):
I should could we in Wellington you're Minister for Wellington
and when you're the opposition Minister for Wellington Affairs, could
we in Wellington lose more jobs? I mean, you know
it's pretty tough out there in Wellington.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Well I am concerned that that is on the cards
with the government stating that more cuts are ahead in
the coming budget. And we've been through very tough times
in terms of public service job losses in Wellington and
seeing that flow on to the rest of the economy
with tough times in hospitality and retail as well. So
(10:35):
this is not a positive economic vision for our community.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
But we both, we all must agree that seventeen pages
of government departments. I mean, surely we could cut that
by something and cut some expense and cut some spending.
Speaker 6 (10:52):
Yeah again, and look it does. It's pretty convoluted, There's
no doubt about that. And I think you know, Brian
right to an instead right, you know, if we were
starting from scratch, it's not the way you would do it.
But we are where we are, and really the station
is about, you know, how do we get matched, but
how do we focus on delivering to a potential and
again just getting value for taxpayers money while getting good outcomes.
(11:17):
But it would be speculative in terms of for me
to take a position on what sure or shouldn't if
anything may change.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and tourist and Minister Louise Upstin
revealed a new tourism campaign on Sunday. The slogan is
Everybody Must Go. It's targeted directly to Australian's only advertising
in Australia to come to New Zealand. Unfortunately, we learned
this week that a record number of Kiwis have moved
to Australia to live the eye share. What's wrong with
(11:44):
this idea specifically targeting Australian tourists not you know, is
it a good idea?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I mean, oh, with targeting Australian tourists, you know, it's
a place to start in terms of the trying to
support the tourism recovery, I think yeah. Indeed, I think
Labor Party has been part of poking fun at everyone
Must Go because it does sound bag and basement in
terms of what we're trying to do with what the
government's doing with tourism. I don't think that's the way
(12:11):
to approach it. If I think about the part of
the country that I'm from, down in Fjordland and Milford Sound,
I think that illustrates the choices for our tourism economy
really well. Do we keep going on this high volume
approach where we're basically treating people like cattle, putting them
out on big boats and big buses, getting them in
(12:31):
and out of the attraction in a day. Or are
we looking for experiences that add more valuable value and
are also environmentally sustainable. And I think what I'm not
hearing from the government is something that increases value in
terms of the tourism offering we.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
Have, Mike, it hasn't really resonated, has it. I mean
there's been a few one line's about everyone has to
go to the toilet and all that sort of stuff,
and it hasn't really become like you know, you're kidding
or any of the good campaigns.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Is it.
Speaker 6 (13:01):
Well, i'd beg The fact that we're talking about it
and everyone's talking about it, Bobby highlights how effective it is.
I mean, it's made international news. But the reality is
tourism accounts for thirty eight billion dollars in expenditure and
two hundred thousand Kiwi jobs. And those people that are
going on the boats and going on the buses, they
are paying, and there's people driving the buses and there's
(13:23):
people showing them around. That is good for our economy,
it's good for jobs. But in terms of Australia pre
COVID theo are only about eighty percent of where we
were pre COVID, and there's been some work around. They
think it's about four million Ausies are already actively considering
a holiday here in ninety three percent of Kiwis agreed
(13:43):
tourism is good for our country and economy.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, Mike, I think you've just proven my point there.
The issue is, yes, we can have more volume and
there will be jobs in that, but if you look
at the pay for jobs in the tourism sector, a
lot of them are low paid, and we have an
opportunity to think about how we actually make the jobs
that are well paid, environmental sustainability and value for New
(14:07):
Zealanders rather than just trying to get a sugarhead out
of more volume.
Speaker 6 (14:12):
No, I think I think we should be looking at
this incredibly positively. And you know it's welcome to our world.
Come over and we'll show you our place. And you
know there are a lot of jobs, two hundred thousand jobs,
and the more tourists you go that will drive economic activity,
that will drive wage growth as well. You know, I
think we've got to put a plug and hopefully we
might get a few of their mates across the ditch
(14:34):
over at the Golden Shears and mastered these of the month.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
How do we how do we put the handbrake on
the young talented kiwis going to Australia. They don't have
to put a habitizing campaign because we've got thousands and
thousands leaving every month to go over there. How what
can we do to put that handbrake on that?
Speaker 6 (14:49):
Mit we grow our economy, simple as that, Nick, And
if we get our economy going, and there are a
lot of green shoots out there, and you know, develop
a pipeline of of you know, all that infrastructure that
we need enabled by fast track get investment, it creates
opportunities for employment, It creates opportunities for businesses and entice
(15:13):
those people to stay so there is a future here
for them and I think we've laid the foundations for
that to happen. The commentary coming from the Reserve Bank,
it's all positive in terms of we are getting there,
acknowledging it's all tough, but it's as simple as that's.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Not telling me. That's sorry, Mike, but that's that's all
nice rhetoric, but it's not telling me how we stop
people actually going to Australia right now, that's.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Right, and the very economic The variant poll showed fifty
percent of New Zealanders think the economy is going in
the wrong direction. Only thirty percent think it's going in
the right direction. So the government can try talk up
these green shoots as much as they like. But young
people and actually Mid Korea people, people are in their
thirties are leaving the country in record numbers because there
(15:55):
aren't prospects for them here. So it does mean you
know it. Can you say that if we grow those
low paid tourism jobs, those young New Zealand in them
will have a chance of owning their own home. I
think that's the challenge is getting actually well paid jobs
in industries that are growing in New Zealand, and the
government doesn't have a plan for that.
Speaker 6 (16:17):
Well, I would beg to differ because if we grow
those businesses and there's more demand for the services, then
wayes get listed as well. But look, we're getting mixed
messages out in the wire appa electric, but there are
a lot is a very different conversation that I'm having
now with people. The rural sector is certainly recovering. The
dairy industry is going to have an incredibly good year.
(16:38):
That's going to put super four billion extra into our economy.
She and b sector an extra billion. There is the
money is starting to be spent and you know those
tractors are getting replaced or quads and fence posts are
being brought so then it is starting to circulate around.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
Still once again not telling me how we're stopping young
people because they've got a new tractor to drive on
the farm, doesn't stop them from going over to live
in Australia and earning double the money they're earning. But
I want to move on. The Prime Minister has said
the government will take a wider look at the setting
around granting organization's charity status. A petition signed by thousands
of people calling for Destiny Church to lose its charity
(17:14):
status was sparked by the group's protest of a rainbow
story time and or can over the over the weekend aisha,
should Destiny Church have charity status and avoid paying tax?
Yes or no?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, Well this is precisely the example of why we
need to relok at our charity charity laws. So it's
inappropriate that essentially what they're getting is a government grant
that's what a tax pay tax break is for a charity,
and then use that to go funder their protest where
they go and intimidate people. I think I'd also like
(17:47):
to use this opportunity to say I don't think Christopher
Luxen's response to what happened was strong enough. It was
tempered and weak. That was absolutely inappropriate to a be
violent and b intimidate members of the Rainbow community. Christopher
Luxen missed an opportunity to be staunch about this, and
he looked weak as a result.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Yeah, Wayne Brown looked stronger. Wayne Brown came out and
called them thugs.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
DENI that's right, they are thugs. That behavior was thuggish,
I guess would be the better way. And I liked
what Chris Hopkins said that real men don't barricade women
and children. It was absolutely appalling behavior. And yeah, why
is the tax payer giving these guys a break?
Speaker 5 (18:27):
And why is you're right? Why has the Prime minist
and not being tough Mike Butterick? Why was he do
we catch him off guard on that particular time? Is
is he tough on it?
Speaker 6 (18:38):
Yeah? I don't worry. The Prime Minister's pretty tough, don't
you worry? About that. But look, in terms of that, look,
it's unacceptable, right, And I thought we'd moved on from
there a long long time ago, that sort of attitude
in this country. And I just don't think that sort
of behavior is acceptable in any shape or form in
twenty twenty five, you know, in terms of the where
(18:59):
they're at. Look, there's an investigation into the text, the
charity text raging, that's part of the broader text policy program,
but no final decisions have yet been made.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Mike, I want to ask you for you. I want
to ask you for your views. You're on the show
to be you and represent the people of your your
constituents and my rapper. What's your view? Do you think
that Destiny Church should lose their charity status for their behavior,
for their thuggish I'm calling it fagus, not asking you
to behavior. Do you or not?
Speaker 6 (19:31):
Yeah, I'm not sure that we could correlate.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
No, No, I don't want to go out there, No, Mike,
I just Mike, I want you to say yes or no.
I want you to say yes or no.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
There are there are people within charities, other charities that
at sort of point in time behave badly publicly. Doesn't
necessarily mean that they are not fulfill in their roles.
I haven't seen it. Excuse me, behavior, it's unacceptable.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
So you're saying, no, they shouldn't lose to your charity status.
And I don't think I've seen Sanitarium do stuff like this.
Maybe I have when they're selling week baks. I haven't
seen them doing stuff blocking, terrified and a.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
I don't think they had, but it ms of the
behavior is unacceptable in twenty twenty five. I just find that.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Even on the behavior, Mike, I mean, I think this
makes a mockery of the government's gang patch ban because
over summer we saw reports that the police went after
an eight year old kid who had a T shirt
that was like a gang insignia, and yet Destiny Church
is getting away with this. So I think it shows
a real reluctance to call out a church or a
(20:38):
so called and a so called bishop when the rights
of the Rainbow community are at stake.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
And those T shirts definitely look like a gang insignia.
They didn't, they didn't. I mean, I'm saying that, you know,
if I lose my job over, I lose my job
over that's what they look like to me. I mean
you know, yep, so you know yeah, okay, so yep, yep,
but no decision on whether they should lose their charity status.
Thank you both for joining us. I know, Mike you've
(21:06):
got a Nipporf straight away at eleven thirty, so I
better call it time on up there so you can
get to your next meeting.
Speaker 6 (21:12):
Thanks for.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
Sleet commitee oh select committee. Oh, hopefully you'll make some
decisions on that one.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
I don't worry we made any decisions.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Thank you very much, Mike Materick for joining us, and
Iisha viral as well.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
The enact thing you.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Adam Cooperdad's News Talks, Heavy News and Sports of
five past eleven Wellington Mornings for the Nick Mills is
back next with Politics Thursday featuring Iis Scheverral and Mike Butterick.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
News Talk Sedley, Wellington Times.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Save the traffic job the weather waffle with Panasonic air
conditioners are good some morning. Looking at the Urban Motorway,
you're going to hit heavy traffic there. From Bowen Street
Rehddiford Street. We're heading up towards Adelaide Road slow at times,
State Highway one flowing well at State Higway fifty nine
or the book at to obey both ways a moderate
to heavy run. It is all due to roadworks. Take controls.
(00:46):
Stay cool with Panasonic, the only air conditioner with nano
X air purification.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Weather with Tommy's Property Management, Property Management, the Innovative Way.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Your forecast for the next few days in the Wellington region.
It all looks very nice today, fine with norwesterlies. The
wind a bit stronger today and tomorrow, but you're getting
up into the early to mid twenties Friday's forecast is similar,
little bit more clapp.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Focusing in on the issues that matter. Politics Thursday on
Willington Mornings, News Talks it be.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
Shine, can you make rat show? Joining us for politics Thursdays,
flavours Health and Wellington's Issues Spokeswoman Spokesperson I Shaverel, Good morning, Ice, wedding.
That great to be here, Nice to have you here,
and nationals wire apper MP, Mike Butterick, Good morning, Mike, Mike. Hello, Mike?
(01:42):
Are you there? Mike? Mike is not there? Maybe something's
going on here, Mike's not here, Mike? Are you there? Mike? Hello? Hello?
Are We're just trying to get hold of Mike. Meanwhile,
is he there? Mike? Are you there?
Speaker 6 (02:00):
Can you hear me?
Speaker 5 (02:01):
I can now? Thank God?
Speaker 6 (02:03):
Don't you love technology? Good morning?
Speaker 5 (02:06):
I'm very good on technical stuff too, but normally.
Speaker 6 (02:10):
Was on these you are because I'm not out of
my wheelhouse.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
All right, let's start by talking about the OCA. Great
news yesterday, another fifty points cut, very very good news. Issha,
what are you thinking? Are we getting there?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
It's really welcome news, particularly for borrowers, people with a mortgage.
But you know, these rates change because the economy has
been slowed down to achieve that change. So while we,
you know, welcome that good news, the bad news is
that unemployment is part of how that economic slowdown occurred.
(02:45):
And you can see that there's a lot of people
leaving the country as well, one hundred and twenty eight
thousand departures in the in the last last year. So
that's what that's that's the mix of good and bad
news in this in this package. And I think looking forward,
still some uncertainty, particularly internationally, about what will happen in
the future, So wouldn't be celebrating yet.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Do you are you hearing in the community about people
still doing it tough? Is it still doing it tough?
I mean, I know my own situation, so I'm doing
it tough. But are people across the community doing it tough?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
That's right, And I think one of the well a
lot of job and security out there at the moment.
Unemployment is high, so people who are in work, who
do have mortgages still won't necessarily feel confident about their situation.
And I know Adrian Or's comments that even though inflation
is coming down, which is what permits the rate cut,
the level of prices people are facing are still quite high.
(03:40):
Particularly you know, rates is an example that all of
us are feeling.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Mike, let's talk the good news side of it. I mean, yes,
we saw A and Z drop some I think one
of their loans to under five percent. I mean, that's
got to be exciting. It is a good news story.
But but but but we aren't getting there, are we?
Speaker 6 (04:00):
Oh? Look, I think, first thing, it is good. It
is good news, right, and we've heard about it was
likely to be fifty basis points and it's actually happened,
So that's good. And it's actually I think it's not
the first time I've been on the show, and we've
we've just had a rake cup as well, so I think.
And if you listen to the narrative from a reserve bank,
you know, in terms of where they're seeing things going,
(04:22):
you know, they're talking further reductions this year and employment
to pick up in the second half of the year.
But ultimately, look, this is good news. It's good news
for anyone with a mortgage and you know, yep, it'll
allow them to you know, pay that, but also they
might go out and spend a bit more in their
community and you know, put more money, money in people's pockets,
more jobs, more opportunities for people. And and I've talked
(04:45):
before previously as well and about it's about confidence and
it will deliver confidence. And it's interesting fed Farmers did
a Federative Farmers did a survey of the members very
recently and it was the largest increase in confidence since
they've started that survey in about her nineteen year period,
you know. And they're going to pay a big part
(05:05):
in their recovery and our economic card growth. And so
that's all good stuff because it'll start filtering through our
towns and into our cities as well. So a lot
it's really good news.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
I want to talk to you both about the inquiry
and to step the steps of government agencies took to
ensure personal census data collected that the Manuere and Maria
could be misused. It has found that the agencies failed
to properly protect it and now the status New Zealand
Boss won't be returning. Sure, I have a real problem
about this information getting out there. How much of an
(05:38):
impact is just going to have in trust in the
thing called the census.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
You're exactly right, Nack. We need the census in order
to get the information as government so we know where
to put schools and hospitals and provide good public services.
And yet in New Zealand and around the world, we're
seeing a drop off in the number of people who
want to complete that census. And that's a real shame
because that means that not all our people are counting
(06:02):
in our statistics. And we know from the last cens
is that one of the issues here was trust. People
didn't some people are losing trust in government and unfortunately
this breach of trust just makes it even even worse.
So I think it's terrible. I'm pleased that there has
(06:23):
been accountability from the Chief Executive Officer of the Department
of Statistics, and I think you know that's but the
other findings in terms of making sure the process has
improved really important.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Mike. How damaging is this?
Speaker 6 (06:38):
I agree with what I should said. The census data
that we get is really really important, and you know,
I'm not you know, that's how that's how we know
where to build our skills, where to do all these things,
and looks it's not you can't sugarcot. It's an unacceptable
breach of public trust. And you know that goes to
the heart of the confidence in our democratic processes and
(06:59):
our institutions, and it's you know, it is not acceptable.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
I should do you think there should be some serious
questions about whether the elect at the time of the
Moralesy was fair.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, we raised concerns with the Electoral Commission at the
time and but nothing was done on the basis of
our concerns. The Electoral Commissioner accepted it failed failed to
manage a perceived conflict of interest. So you know, I
feel for Perna who narrowly lost that six forty six
(07:33):
forty that's still tiny margin. We've got to go back
next time.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's terrible, Mike, What are your thoughts on that,
because you know, realistically there's there's something not quite right here.
Speaker 6 (07:45):
Yeah. Look, I guess you know there was you know,
there's there's been some complaints made obviously, and I'm sure
that's probably going to go through a process. But again, Nick,
it comes back to people need to have trust. They
need to have trust that their data is protected, they
need to have trusted everything is straight you know, straight up,
(08:06):
and don't look that's really what I'm going to make
sure that this sort of stuff does not happen again.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
I mean, this is pretty clear that trust has been broken, though,
isn't it really?
Speaker 6 (08:13):
Yeah, that's right, and it's unacceptable, completely unacceptable.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
No, okay, Acting Government Departments Public Service Commissioner Sir Brian
Roach says that discussion is needed on whether we have
too many government departments and whether some could be disestablished
or merged to make them more efficient. Should do you
have any thoughts on how many government departments we should
have or have it? Because I'll just show you this
(08:37):
piece of this booklet. It's seventeen pages long of government departments.
Surely that we've got too many?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, well, I think if we I thought Brian Roch
was right to say, if we were starting with a
blank sheet of paper, we wouldn't end up end up here.
And you know, in some of the portfolios I held,
I certainly wanted to see things rationalized a bit. I
don't know why we have kniewher and a separate met service,
for example. And there's probably scope for some rationalization in
(09:04):
some of the science departments, as the government now proposes
as well. However, it's all about how you do it
and you see what science Sadly, they're just going and
blindly cutting and some some of the scientists that callahan
innovation are moving on and we're just losing all that talent.
So the I think just approaching this from a cost
(09:25):
cutting perspective is the wrong way to go about it.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
Mike, how much money could we save here? Could we
cut some departments and save some serious money here?
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Look, I'm that's really speculatives, but I think the key
point is, Look, if you keep doing the same thing
the same way, you always get the same result. So
you know, it's always healthy to examine the way that
we operate because it should be about outcomes and value
for money, for tax powers money. So look, I think
it's very healthy that the subject's being approached, and you know,
(09:56):
it's a good opportunity to think critically about how the
public service is set up and when it's delivering and
is it delivering to its potential?
Speaker 5 (10:05):
I should could we in Wellington you're Minister for Wellington
and when you're the opposition Minister for Wellington Affairs, could
we in Wellington lose more jobs? I mean, you know
it's pretty tough out there in Wellington.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Well I am concerned that that is on the cards
with the government stating that more cuts are ahead in
the coming budget. And we've been through very tough times
in terms of public service job losses in Wellington and
seeing that flow on to the rest of the economy
with tough times in hospitality and retail as well. So
(10:35):
this is not a positive economic vision for our community.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
But we both, we all must agree that seventeen pages
of government departments. I mean, surely we could cut that
by something and cut some expense and cut some spending.
Speaker 6 (10:52):
Yeah again, and look it does. It's pretty convoluted, There's
no doubt about that. And I think you know, Brian
right to an instead right, you know, if we were
starting from scratch, it's not the way you would do it.
But we are where we are, and really the station
is about, you know, how do we get matched, but
how do we focus on delivering to a potential and
again just getting value for taxpayers money while getting good outcomes.
(11:17):
But it would be speculative in terms of for me
to take a position on what sure or shouldn't if
anything may change.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and tourist and Minister Louise Upstin
revealed a new tourism campaign on Sunday. The slogan is
Everybody Must Go. It's targeted directly to Australian's only advertising
in Australia to come to New Zealand. Unfortunately, we learned
this week that a record number of Kiwis have moved
to Australia to live the eye share. What's wrong with
(11:44):
this idea specifically targeting Australian tourists not you know, is
it a good idea?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I mean, oh, with targeting Australian tourists, you know, it's
a place to start in terms of the trying to
support the tourism recovery, I think yeah. Indeed, I think
Labor Party has been part of poking fun at everyone
Must Go because it does sound bag and basement in
terms of what we're trying to do with what the
government's doing with tourism. I don't think that's the way
(12:11):
to approach it. If I think about the part of
the country that I'm from, down in Fjordland and Milford Sound,
I think that illustrates the choices for our tourism economy
really well. Do we keep going on this high volume
approach where we're basically treating people like cattle, putting them
out on big boats and big buses, getting them in
(12:31):
and out of the attraction in a day. Or are
we looking for experiences that add more valuable value and
are also environmentally sustainable. And I think what I'm not
hearing from the government is something that increases value in
terms of the tourism offering we.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
Have, Mike, it hasn't really resonated, has it. I mean
there's been a few one line's about everyone has to
go to the toilet and all that sort of stuff,
and it hasn't really become like you know, you're kidding
or any of the good campaigns.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Is it.
Speaker 6 (13:01):
Well, i'd beg The fact that we're talking about it
and everyone's talking about it, Bobby highlights how effective it is.
I mean, it's made international news. But the reality is
tourism accounts for thirty eight billion dollars in expenditure and
two hundred thousand Kiwi jobs. And those people that are
going on the boats and going on the buses, they
are paying, and there's people driving the buses and there's
(13:23):
people showing them around. That is good for our economy,
it's good for jobs. But in terms of Australia pre
COVID theo are only about eighty percent of where we
were pre COVID, and there's been some work around. They
think it's about four million Ausies are already actively considering
a holiday here in ninety three percent of Kiwis agreed
(13:43):
tourism is good for our country and economy.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, Mike, I think you've just proven my point there.
The issue is, yes, we can have more volume and
there will be jobs in that, but if you look
at the pay for jobs in the tourism sector, a
lot of them are low paid, and we have an
opportunity to think about how we actually make the jobs
that are well paid, environmental sustainability and value for New
(14:07):
Zealanders rather than just trying to get a sugarhead out
of more volume.
Speaker 6 (14:12):
No, I think I think we should be looking at
this incredibly positively. And you know it's welcome to our world.
Come over and we'll show you our place. And you
know there are a lot of jobs, two hundred thousand jobs,
and the more tourists you go that will drive economic activity,
that will drive wage growth as well. You know, I
think we've got to put a plug and hopefully we
might get a few of their mates across the ditch
(14:34):
over at the Golden Shears and mastered these of the month.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
How do we how do we put the handbrake on
the young talented kiwis going to Australia. They don't have
to put a habitizing campaign because we've got thousands and
thousands leaving every month to go over there. How what
can we do to put that handbrake on that?
Speaker 6 (14:49):
Mit we grow our economy, simple as that, Nick, And
if we get our economy going, and there are a
lot of green shoots out there, and you know, develop
a pipeline of of you know, all that infrastructure that
we need enabled by fast track get investment, it creates
opportunities for employment, It creates opportunities for businesses and entice
(15:13):
those people to stay so there is a future here
for them and I think we've laid the foundations for
that to happen. The commentary coming from the Reserve Bank,
it's all positive in terms of we are getting there,
acknowledging it's all tough, but it's as simple as that's.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Not telling me. That's sorry, Mike, but that's that's all
nice rhetoric, but it's not telling me how we stop
people actually going to Australia right now, that's.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Right, and the very economic The variant poll showed fifty
percent of New Zealanders think the economy is going in
the wrong direction. Only thirty percent think it's going in
the right direction. So the government can try talk up
these green shoots as much as they like. But young
people and actually Mid Korea people, people are in their
thirties are leaving the country in record numbers because there
(15:55):
aren't prospects for them here. So it does mean you
know it. Can you say that if we grow those
low paid tourism jobs, those young New Zealand in them
will have a chance of owning their own home. I
think that's the challenge is getting actually well paid jobs
in industries that are growing in New Zealand, and the
government doesn't have a plan for that.
Speaker 6 (16:17):
Well, I would beg to differ because if we grow
those businesses and there's more demand for the services, then
wayes get listed as well. But look, we're getting mixed
messages out in the wire appa electric, but there are
a lot is a very different conversation that I'm having
now with people. The rural sector is certainly recovering. The
dairy industry is going to have an incredibly good year.
(16:38):
That's going to put super four billion extra into our economy.
She and b sector an extra billion. There is the
money is starting to be spent and you know those
tractors are getting replaced or quads and fence posts are
being brought so then it is starting to circulate around.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
Still once again not telling me how we're stopping young
people because they've got a new tractor to drive on
the farm, doesn't stop them from going over to live
in Australia and earning double the money they're earning. But
I want to move on. The Prime Minister has said
the government will take a wider look at the setting
around granting organization's charity status. A petition signed by thousands
of people calling for Destiny Church to lose its charity
(17:14):
status was sparked by the group's protest of a rainbow
story time and or can over the over the weekend aisha,
should Destiny Church have charity status and avoid paying tax?
Yes or no?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, Well this is precisely the example of why we
need to relok at our charity charity laws. So it's
inappropriate that essentially what they're getting is a government grant
that's what a tax pay tax break is for a charity,
and then use that to go funder their protest where
they go and intimidate people. I think I'd also like
(17:47):
to use this opportunity to say I don't think Christopher
Luxen's response to what happened was strong enough. It was
tempered and weak. That was absolutely inappropriate to a be
violent and b intimidate members of the Rainbow community. Christopher
Luxen missed an opportunity to be staunch about this, and
he looked weak as a result.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Yeah, Wayne Brown looked stronger. Wayne Brown came out and
called them thugs.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
DENI that's right, they are thugs. That behavior was thuggish,
I guess would be the better way. And I liked
what Chris Hopkins said that real men don't barricade women
and children. It was absolutely appalling behavior. And yeah, why
is the tax payer giving these guys a break?
Speaker 5 (18:27):
And why is you're right? Why has the Prime minist
and not being tough Mike Butterick? Why was he do
we catch him off guard on that particular time? Is
is he tough on it?
Speaker 6 (18:38):
Yeah? I don't worry. The Prime Minister's pretty tough, don't
you worry? About that. But look, in terms of that, look,
it's unacceptable, right, And I thought we'd moved on from
there a long long time ago, that sort of attitude
in this country. And I just don't think that sort
of behavior is acceptable in any shape or form in
twenty twenty five, you know, in terms of the where
(18:59):
they're at. Look, there's an investigation into the text, the
charity text raging, that's part of the broader text policy program,
but no final decisions have yet been made.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Mike, I want to ask you for you. I want
to ask you for your views. You're on the show
to be you and represent the people of your your
constituents and my rapper. What's your view? Do you think
that Destiny Church should lose their charity status for their behavior,
for their thuggish I'm calling it fagus, not asking you
to behavior. Do you or not?
Speaker 6 (19:31):
Yeah, I'm not sure that we could correlate.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
No, No, I don't want to go out there, No, Mike,
I just Mike, I want you to say yes or no.
I want you to say yes or no.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
There are there are people within charities, other charities that
at sort of point in time behave badly publicly. Doesn't
necessarily mean that they are not fulfill in their roles.
I haven't seen it. Excuse me, behavior, it's unacceptable.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
So you're saying, no, they shouldn't lose to your charity status.
And I don't think I've seen Sanitarium do stuff like this.
Maybe I have when they're selling week baks. I haven't
seen them doing stuff blocking, terrified and a.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
I don't think they had, but it ms of the
behavior is unacceptable in twenty twenty five. I just find that.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Even on the behavior, Mike, I mean, I think this
makes a mockery of the government's gang patch ban because
over summer we saw reports that the police went after
an eight year old kid who had a T shirt
that was like a gang insignia, and yet Destiny Church
is getting away with this. So I think it shows
a real reluctance to call out a church or a
(20:38):
so called and a so called bishop when the rights
of the Rainbow community are at stake.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
And those T shirts definitely look like a gang insignia.
They didn't, they didn't. I mean, I'm saying that, you know,
if I lose my job over, I lose my job
over that's what they look like to me. I mean
you know, yep, so you know yeah, okay, so yep, yep,
but no decision on whether they should lose their charity status.
Thank you both for joining us. I know, Mike you've
(21:06):
got a Nipporf straight away at eleven thirty, so I
better call it time on up there so you can
get to your next meeting.
Speaker 6 (21:12):
Thanks for.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
Sleet commitee oh select committee. Oh, hopefully you'll make some
decisions on that one.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
I don't worry we made any decisions.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Thank you very much, Mike Materick for joining us, and
Iisha viral as well.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
The enact thing you.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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