October 15, 2025 • 19 mins
This Politics Thursday Nick Mills was joined by Labour MP Ayesha Verrall and National's Wairarapa MP Mike Butterick.
Both gave their tributes to former Prime Minister Jim Bolger, sharing their memories of his leadership.
Verrall and Butterick then discussed the political issues of the week. They gave their thoughts on the behaviour of Te Pati Māori, Gerry Brownlee cracking down as speaker, the new ferry announcement, I Am Hope's executive pay rises and got fiery over current strike action.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at B focusing in on the issues
that matter Politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings News Talk saied
b Canon It's Thursday.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's eleven o'clock, which means it's politics Thursday. National MP
for the Wire Wrapper Mike Butterick joins us.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Good morning, Mike, Good morning, Nick, here are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thank you? And labors Aisha Viral, She's a listening MP
and spokesperson for Health and Wellington issues. Good morning, I.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Sha morning, Neck morning, Mike, morning Nisa.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Let's start start with the sad political news that we've
lost Jim Bulger aisher your thoughts.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Yeah, I was firstly condolences to the Bulger family and
also to my colleagues in the National Party have lost
a great father and leader. I met Jim Bolger when
I was the youth MP attending the nineteen ninety seven
Youth Parliament and he had lunch with a group of us.
(01:17):
So I remember him sitting down at the table we
were already seated, and looked around and saw there were
a number of Asian New Zealanders among the youth MPs,
and started to talk to us about that, and at
the time I just thought that was nice. But looking
back on it now, of course he was the one
who set the direction for as he put it, in
New Zealand becoming part of Asia. He formed the Asia
(01:40):
two thousand Federation. There was an economic focus on Asia.
But in my own world I saw him that direction
meant our school started teaching Japanese instead of French.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
And I did that.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
There were more out of Japanese all the way through school,
and I guess he was the leader of a set
of changes in our community. We started to see more
Asian tourists over those years in the late nineteen nineties,
and keeping up with that, he also defended Asian migrants
to New Zealand against racism in our politics. So I
(02:17):
saw him as quite a compassionate and decent man. There
are parts of the record around the Employment Contracts Act,
which is a little bit difficult for labor and we opposed.
But then to see him in his later life come
back and champion fair pay agreements, I thought really spoke
to the ability of the man not to be doctrinaire,
(02:39):
but to earn the respect of both the right and
the left wing.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Of New Zealand politics. He will be.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Missed, Mike. He was a real New Zealander, wasn't he.
He was a farmer from Taranaki dad got into politics.
The two things that I'll always remember him by his
family and religion.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, Nick, and very much a statesman,
incredibly passionate about his country, his community. And you know,
fascinating story of a fifteen year old that left school
was no qualifications and went on to become our prime minister.
Very typical New Zealand story and incredibly inspirational. And I
(03:20):
had the very good fortune to meet Jim and his
wife Joan and Masterden. He's having a book launch a
few years ago, and you know, he carved out a
bit of time for me and we had a very open,
very welcoming chat, and you know, he talked about his
journey or you know, when he was Prime minister and
(03:40):
what he really the bits he liked in One of
his big frustrations and I still remember this, it was
that we'd made it an art form about talking about
things and not getting a lot done as a country.
Typically he was talking in regards to water stories, but
just very statesmanlike and you know he will be missed
and igo Ash's condolences to Joan and the Wider family
(04:03):
as well. So in another story, Nick, we talk about
you know, he he was us investador and you hear
from the staff they absolutely loved him. You know, he
just didn't sit in the room and do that. He
actually mixed with them and wanted to talk to them
about their lives and all the rest of it. And
they really really loved him, which is just another indication
(04:24):
of the measure of the man.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Did either of you ever see him without a tie on?
We talk about the standards in parliament and you know,
it's funny that, you know, and I'm very passionate about
the standards in Parliament. I think that they should be
at hold. You know, we let it slip far, far
too much. And I think of Jim Bolger every time.
I never saw him without a tie on.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
No, I can't recall, Nick, No, you're asking me to
go go back away in my memories neck but yeah, No,
definitely filled that role of the statesman and how he
carried himself, but also his deeds.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, very very sadly missed, but ninety years old, you've
got to say good innings well deserved and commiserations to
the family after a really hectic week of internal chaos
from the taparty Mari with the new MP disruptions of
Harkers in parliament, the cup of King is the email scandals?
Oh gosh, the media runs that's supposed to be relaunching
(05:25):
their party and doing all the right things lasted three minutes.
The list goes on and on and on. Mike, what
are your thoughts on this? I mean, what can be
done well?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
It's sort of a bit of an unwelcome gift that
sort of seems to keep on giving, doesn't it. It's
you know, it's a bit of a circus really on
not across a lot of the particular details. I mean,
that's a metaphor to party Mary. But you know, the
reset doesn't seem to be going too well does It
doesn't seem to be going according to plan? Do you?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I mean, how do you feel about the behavior in parliament?
Are you? Are you up? Do you do you think
that we've got to sort it out? Oh?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Look, Nick, I came to this place with an expectation
in my mind that that would be standards. And you know,
we've talked about this a number of times on the show,
and I don't think it's an unfair expectation that there
should be standards around the tenants and behavior and dress
and things like that. So, you know, Deari's announced the crackdown.
I think it's a really good move. You know, we
(06:24):
need to set an example, you know, one of the someone.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Let's get to that most of that in a minute, Mike,
because that's another completely separate issue. I want to I
want to keep that as a separate issue. I share
is labor worried about how they're going to have to
work if they are going to be parliament in parliament
next year after the election. I mean, how the hell,
I mean do you have are you having this discussion
and how we can sort them out, how we can
tidy them up.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
No, my dominant feeling is sadness. The cause is so
important to so many Mary and there is no more
important time now, more than ever, it's important to have
good Mary representation in Parliament given the rollback of their
yes things that are important to Mary under this government. Now,
(07:11):
I understand people debate what the best way to oppose
those changes are. Some want to be the activists in
the streets. Some want to be the voice in parliament,
and yes, when you're in parliament that means accepting the
agreed rules on how we engage with one another.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Can I just ask you both? Is that just going
to be the new thing now with m MP you
can actually just go into Parliament to be disruptive if
you get it. I mean, it's not conducive to good
law making and sorting out the country.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
I don't think it's m MP.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
I think it's social media, do you, Yeah, because in
a sense it.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Gives well that doing that. Social media can only record
on what they.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
See well exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
But in the past you didn't have the option of
speaking to your own audience via social media through the house.
So rather than the house being a place where you're
talking to the people opposite or sometimes you know via
a journalist to the public, now well you can use
it as a platform to curate your own little image
(08:12):
and story about what's going on there.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Okay, Mike, I want to come to you on this one.
I mean Speaker Jerry Brown, he says he's going to
crack down on harder rules after the party married disrupted parliament.
I mean he's going to look at it, things like
attendance records, dress standards and leave provisions. Does he have
enough power or does he have enough want to try
and sort our parliament. We're almost becoming a laughing stock.
(08:36):
I saw a little skip being played in an Australian
media the other day, you know, and I felt embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah, well it shouldn't be. It's not like it's a
mufty day every day, is it. And well it is,
it is, and it shouldn't be. And I think Jerry's right.
It's a good move Nick. You know, the stand as
you walk past the other ones you accept and there's
got to be some standards. And I think it's entirely appropriate.
And I think it's fair that people have an expectations
(09:04):
that we actually turn up when we're meant to turn up.
We are there. We've been put there by New Zealanders,
by voters to represent them. It is only right that
we turn up. It is only right that we dress appropriately,
it's only right that we behave appropriately. And yeah, I
just don't think it's an unfair expectation.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Aisha, how do you feel about Parliament sets its own
rules for itself and the speaker enforces the rules that
we agree, and so in that case, I think it's
right that we were able to consider debate and then
set standards around attendance. I no, I'd probably as long
as there's a balance between the need to be in
(09:47):
the community sometimes.
Speaker 5 (09:49):
When the House is sitting.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
So long as we was still able to make those
important engagements outside Parliament, then I'm quite happy with rules
being more strict.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Politics Thursday, Aisheviril and Mike Butterick. Mike King's Mental Health
Foundation has come under a little bit of heat heart
the rect executives were given pay rises as counseling sessions
the increased. They were given an increase of twenty four
million dollars in funding over four years from the government. Mike,
who decides this and how much they're getting? Have you
(10:19):
considered monitoring them more?
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Look, I mean how much they choose to pay as
a matter for their board, you know. But the funding
that the government provides, I am hope it goes directly
into mental health counseling services. And I mean they have
delivered on a significant scale more than thirty thousand free
(10:42):
counseling sessions. I mean that is very much runs on
the board. The fantastic.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
You're happy they pay their management like an eighty percent
pay rise.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Ah, Look, I mean it's it's it is nic it's
a matter for their board and.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Really it is a charity. This isn't you know when
you say it's a board but it's a charity.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, but look all charities will pay board members, you know,
a sum a remuneration. But effectively, what really boils down
to is about delivery and are they delivering what they
are tasked with, and that is counseling services to those
people that desperately need it. You know, they've got more
than seven hundred qualified counselors on the platform now and
(11:25):
that's up about a third from the previous year. I mean,
that is significant and it is delivering and that's actually
what matters. Is the outcome are well.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I mean there are definitely questions for the Prime Minister
and Matt duc to answer here, none of which we're
addressed by Mike. They are paying executives in their organization
half a million dollars and the number of executives is
just one point three million people, sorry, one point three people.
So you do the match there. Someone is getting paid
(11:57):
a huge amount.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Of howk of those numbers again, because you're just a delivery.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Right over five hundred thousand dollars half a million dollars
for one point three people's salary.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
Now there are.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Charity charities don't pay those sorts of those sorts of salaries.
All the other mental health charities that I visit are
doing it pretty tough right right now, and in particular
because I am hope had this very political deal out
of the Coalition agreement where they were promised funding when
all the other charities missed out. So it's pretty it's
(12:31):
pretty tough on them. And I do think there are
questions to be asked. And let's not forget that the
whole way this organization got funded was had a red
sticker from the Order to General because the procurement process
was not followed. They did not go out through a
fair procurement process for this. So there's lots of questions
to be answered here. And I think it's important because
(12:53):
it's about the spend of public money.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Mike Aisher is dead right there. It is a charity.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeh, No, yes, they are a charity, but you know
the first twelve months of government funding because it's about
comes they've scaled up. They've delivered more than thirty thousand
free counseling services. Oor session sorry, supported more than ten
thousand New Zealanders. It wouldn't have been able to access
timely support. And you know the follow next year they're
(13:22):
going to scale They've got plans to scale up even more.
That's actually what matters. They are delivering to the people
that need it. And it's called an outcome.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
You could give that money to other charities that don't
give themselves giant salaries and then you could get so
much more value out of it. And those other charities
never had a chance to bid for this because I
Am Hope was picked by the coalition partners and no
one else got a look.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
In was it? But they hilarity contest, do.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
You think.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Potentially?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
And that's not the best way to turn around mental
health services in New Zealand. The best way is to
run a fair process with the procurement and when that happens,
there's a little bit of competition and those organizations keep
their keep their costs down so they can keep getting contracts.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
But the best way to deliver is actually counseling sessions.
In terms of charities I mean call it for one
of a better phrase. They were shovel really ready. The
outcomes that the counseling sessions that they have delivered is
proof of the fact that they were ready to go.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
We definitely needed the shovels to push the cash around,
didn't they.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
But you know, ten thousand odd people and have had
access to support, and no one's a good outcome.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
No one, especially me, is arguing that of all the
good things that my King's done, I don't have any
question about that. But I have a little bit of
an issue where it's charities. A Chinese company that makes
warships now think about that makes warships has been announced
as the new builder of the two New inter Island fairies.
(15:00):
Both are they? I shall come to you first on
this one. Have you got any slight con that a
company that makes warships making our fairies? I suppose if
you make a ship, you make a ship, don't you wow?
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Well, we are well outside my knowledge, chariot you both.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
You know when when I am sure Minister Peters knows
enough about how New Zealand needs to approach large procurement
projects and the the how we think about security when
we engage with big projects with China. I am sure
and very confident that would have been done. What I'm
(15:42):
not confident about is what the price is, because no
one has said that, and that's been the big mystery
all along with this, with this project. So it would
be great if they could come clean. They've signed a contract,
so we all need to know what the cost is now.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Well, look the good news. The good news is it'll
be significantly less than what you guys going to do.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
You might create that's because you haven't. But of course
you can say anything you want when you don't release
the don't you because you can just make up whatever
fairy tale. But this whole project got canceled incredibly rashly
by Nikola Willis and two years on, no boats. Everything's
delayed and we don't know. The price seems seems fishy
to me.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
But nothing fishy in it but me, look, it's gonna
save billions and just hurry up and wait. But in
terms of your question, Nick, you know, we specify everything
that will go into the Fairies, every item, every piece
of equipment will be independently checked in that standard and
national security considerations are part of the government process and
(16:43):
the intelligency intelligence agencies. They support those processes that are okay.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
But sure, because I know you guys have got to
go and I've got got waye guppy waiting to come
in and have a chat to me. Lots of strikes
happening at the moment everywhere you look. Even even Raine
pains that you have a strike, had a strike yesterday, Mike.
I mean, you must be a little bit worried about
all these strikes, especially when you've got Sammy and Brown
(17:09):
and you know, the senior doctors, You've got teachers, you've
got nurses, even people that make painter on straight.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah. Well, there's not a bottomless pot of tax bars money.
You know, every dollar's got to be weighed about what's sustainable,
what can be delivered from his illness. But look, get
to the negotiating table. Do not choose disruption over negotiation.
You know, bargaining it is about sitting around a table,
(17:39):
having a chat, making compromises, and regrettably we haven't seen
a lot of that lately. So you know, we encourage
them to get to the table and have a conversation
because it's significant disruption to New Zealanders.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I sure if I was listening to people that talk
to me in my social life in my other job.
A lot of them would tell me, of course there's
going to be a lot of strikes. This is all
planned by the labor powers. They're going to try and
to disrupt as much as they can before the election.
Do you reckon that the Labour Party's got anything to
do with these strikes?
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Absolutely not. What this is to do with is the
fact that the government has cut gave tax cuts to
landlords and tobacco companies, meaning they have less money to
spend on public services, and so the key workforces we
depend on, doctors, nurses, teachers, firefighters are not getting cost
(18:32):
of living increases in their pay rounds and that is
the cause of this disruption. The government has the wrong
priorities and for many working people in these public service roles,
you know their conditions are getting worse under this government.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
They have a right strike.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Oh sure. The reason there's no money is because you
lot blew it all and you took inflation up to
seven point three percent and we're literally having the spoonful
of medicine that you dis sed up to the New
Zealand economy.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
That's rubbish. Mike, you had plenty to hand.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Out well co and study economics one oh one, No
go and study economics one oh one.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Why don't we take an economic squiz to get it? Mike?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Do you want to do that?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Probably another time, I think, because I suspected any time
I shot.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Oh gosh, can I Can I be the.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
That would be the blind leading the ridiculous with that,
Oh gosh. I look forward to that on another date.
A pleasure to have you both, Mike, Butterick and Shaver
in the in the studio with me.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at B focusing in on the issues
that matter Politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings News Talk saied
b Canon It's Thursday.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's eleven o'clock, which means it's politics Thursday. National MP
for the Wire Wrapper Mike Butterick joins us.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Good morning, Mike, Good morning, Nick, here are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thank you? And labors Aisha Viral, She's a listening MP
and spokesperson for Health and Wellington issues. Good morning, I.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Sha morning, Neck morning, Mike, morning Nisa.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Let's start start with the sad political news that we've
lost Jim Bulger aisher your thoughts.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Yeah, I was firstly condolences to the Bulger family and
also to my colleagues in the National Party have lost
a great father and leader. I met Jim Bolger when
I was the youth MP attending the nineteen ninety seven
Youth Parliament and he had lunch with a group of us.
(01:17):
So I remember him sitting down at the table we
were already seated, and looked around and saw there were
a number of Asian New Zealanders among the youth MPs,
and started to talk to us about that, and at
the time I just thought that was nice. But looking
back on it now, of course he was the one
who set the direction for as he put it, in
New Zealand becoming part of Asia. He formed the Asia
(01:40):
two thousand Federation. There was an economic focus on Asia.
But in my own world I saw him that direction
meant our school started teaching Japanese instead of French.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
And I did that.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
There were more out of Japanese all the way through school,
and I guess he was the leader of a set
of changes in our community. We started to see more
Asian tourists over those years in the late nineteen nineties,
and keeping up with that, he also defended Asian migrants
to New Zealand against racism in our politics. So I
(02:17):
saw him as quite a compassionate and decent man. There
are parts of the record around the Employment Contracts Act,
which is a little bit difficult for labor and we opposed.
But then to see him in his later life come
back and champion fair pay agreements, I thought really spoke
to the ability of the man not to be doctrinaire,
(02:39):
but to earn the respect of both the right and
the left wing.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Of New Zealand politics. He will be.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Missed, Mike. He was a real New Zealander, wasn't he.
He was a farmer from Taranaki dad got into politics.
The two things that I'll always remember him by his
family and religion.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, Nick, and very much a statesman,
incredibly passionate about his country, his community. And you know,
fascinating story of a fifteen year old that left school
was no qualifications and went on to become our prime minister.
Very typical New Zealand story and incredibly inspirational. And I
(03:20):
had the very good fortune to meet Jim and his
wife Joan and Masterden. He's having a book launch a
few years ago, and you know, he carved out a
bit of time for me and we had a very open,
very welcoming chat, and you know, he talked about his
journey or you know, when he was Prime minister and
(03:40):
what he really the bits he liked in One of
his big frustrations and I still remember this, it was
that we'd made it an art form about talking about
things and not getting a lot done as a country.
Typically he was talking in regards to water stories, but
just very statesmanlike and you know he will be missed
and igo Ash's condolences to Joan and the Wider family
(04:03):
as well. So in another story, Nick, we talk about
you know, he he was us investador and you hear
from the staff they absolutely loved him. You know, he
just didn't sit in the room and do that. He
actually mixed with them and wanted to talk to them
about their lives and all the rest of it. And
they really really loved him, which is just another indication
(04:24):
of the measure of the man.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Did either of you ever see him without a tie on?
We talk about the standards in parliament and you know,
it's funny that, you know, and I'm very passionate about
the standards in Parliament. I think that they should be
at hold. You know, we let it slip far, far
too much. And I think of Jim Bolger every time.
I never saw him without a tie on.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
No, I can't recall, Nick, No, you're asking me to
go go back away in my memories neck but yeah, No,
definitely filled that role of the statesman and how he
carried himself, but also his deeds.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, very very sadly missed, but ninety years old, you've
got to say good innings well deserved and commiserations to
the family after a really hectic week of internal chaos
from the taparty Mari with the new MP disruptions of
Harkers in parliament, the cup of King is the email scandals?
Oh gosh, the media runs that's supposed to be relaunching
(05:25):
their party and doing all the right things lasted three minutes.
The list goes on and on and on. Mike, what
are your thoughts on this? I mean, what can be
done well?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
It's sort of a bit of an unwelcome gift that
sort of seems to keep on giving, doesn't it. It's
you know, it's a bit of a circus really on
not across a lot of the particular details. I mean,
that's a metaphor to party Mary. But you know, the
reset doesn't seem to be going too well does It
doesn't seem to be going according to plan? Do you?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I mean, how do you feel about the behavior in parliament?
Are you? Are you up? Do you do you think
that we've got to sort it out? Oh?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Look, Nick, I came to this place with an expectation
in my mind that that would be standards. And you know,
we've talked about this a number of times on the show,
and I don't think it's an unfair expectation that there
should be standards around the tenants and behavior and dress
and things like that. So, you know, Deari's announced the crackdown.
I think it's a really good move. You know, we
(06:24):
need to set an example, you know, one of the someone.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Let's get to that most of that in a minute, Mike,
because that's another completely separate issue. I want to I
want to keep that as a separate issue. I share
is labor worried about how they're going to have to
work if they are going to be parliament in parliament
next year after the election. I mean, how the hell,
I mean do you have are you having this discussion
and how we can sort them out, how we can
tidy them up.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
No, my dominant feeling is sadness. The cause is so
important to so many Mary and there is no more
important time now, more than ever, it's important to have
good Mary representation in Parliament given the rollback of their
yes things that are important to Mary under this government. Now,
(07:11):
I understand people debate what the best way to oppose
those changes are. Some want to be the activists in
the streets. Some want to be the voice in parliament,
and yes, when you're in parliament that means accepting the
agreed rules on how we engage with one another.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Can I just ask you both? Is that just going
to be the new thing now with m MP you
can actually just go into Parliament to be disruptive if
you get it. I mean, it's not conducive to good
law making and sorting out the country.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
I don't think it's m MP.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
I think it's social media, do you, Yeah, because in
a sense it.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Gives well that doing that. Social media can only record
on what they.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
See well exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
But in the past you didn't have the option of
speaking to your own audience via social media through the house.
So rather than the house being a place where you're
talking to the people opposite or sometimes you know via
a journalist to the public, now well you can use
it as a platform to curate your own little image
(08:12):
and story about what's going on there.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Okay, Mike, I want to come to you on this one.
I mean Speaker Jerry Brown, he says he's going to
crack down on harder rules after the party married disrupted parliament.
I mean he's going to look at it, things like
attendance records, dress standards and leave provisions. Does he have
enough power or does he have enough want to try
and sort our parliament. We're almost becoming a laughing stock.
(08:36):
I saw a little skip being played in an Australian
media the other day, you know, and I felt embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah, well it shouldn't be. It's not like it's a
mufty day every day, is it. And well it is,
it is, and it shouldn't be. And I think Jerry's right.
It's a good move Nick. You know, the stand as
you walk past the other ones you accept and there's
got to be some standards. And I think it's entirely appropriate.
And I think it's fair that people have an expectations
(09:04):
that we actually turn up when we're meant to turn up.
We are there. We've been put there by New Zealanders,
by voters to represent them. It is only right that
we turn up. It is only right that we dress appropriately,
it's only right that we behave appropriately. And yeah, I
just don't think it's an unfair expectation.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Aisha, how do you feel about Parliament sets its own
rules for itself and the speaker enforces the rules that
we agree, and so in that case, I think it's
right that we were able to consider debate and then
set standards around attendance. I no, I'd probably as long
as there's a balance between the need to be in
(09:47):
the community sometimes.
Speaker 5 (09:49):
When the House is sitting.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
So long as we was still able to make those
important engagements outside Parliament, then I'm quite happy with rules
being more strict.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Politics Thursday, Aisheviril and Mike Butterick. Mike King's Mental Health
Foundation has come under a little bit of heat heart
the rect executives were given pay rises as counseling sessions
the increased. They were given an increase of twenty four
million dollars in funding over four years from the government. Mike,
who decides this and how much they're getting? Have you
(10:19):
considered monitoring them more?
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Look, I mean how much they choose to pay as
a matter for their board, you know. But the funding
that the government provides, I am hope it goes directly
into mental health counseling services. And I mean they have
delivered on a significant scale more than thirty thousand free
(10:42):
counseling sessions. I mean that is very much runs on
the board. The fantastic.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
You're happy they pay their management like an eighty percent
pay rise.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Ah, Look, I mean it's it's it is nic it's
a matter for their board and.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Really it is a charity. This isn't you know when
you say it's a board but it's a charity.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, but look all charities will pay board members, you know,
a sum a remuneration. But effectively, what really boils down
to is about delivery and are they delivering what they
are tasked with, and that is counseling services to those
people that desperately need it. You know, they've got more
than seven hundred qualified counselors on the platform now and
(11:25):
that's up about a third from the previous year. I mean,
that is significant and it is delivering and that's actually
what matters. Is the outcome are well.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I mean there are definitely questions for the Prime Minister
and Matt duc to answer here, none of which we're
addressed by Mike. They are paying executives in their organization
half a million dollars and the number of executives is
just one point three million people, sorry, one point three people.
So you do the match there. Someone is getting paid
(11:57):
a huge amount.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Of howk of those numbers again, because you're just a delivery.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Right over five hundred thousand dollars half a million dollars
for one point three people's salary.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
Now there are.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Charity charities don't pay those sorts of those sorts of salaries.
All the other mental health charities that I visit are
doing it pretty tough right right now, and in particular
because I am hope had this very political deal out
of the Coalition agreement where they were promised funding when
all the other charities missed out. So it's pretty it's
(12:31):
pretty tough on them. And I do think there are
questions to be asked. And let's not forget that the
whole way this organization got funded was had a red
sticker from the Order to General because the procurement process
was not followed. They did not go out through a
fair procurement process for this. So there's lots of questions
to be answered here. And I think it's important because
(12:53):
it's about the spend of public money.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Mike Aisher is dead right there. It is a charity.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeh, No, yes, they are a charity, but you know
the first twelve months of government funding because it's about
comes they've scaled up. They've delivered more than thirty thousand
free counseling services. Oor session sorry, supported more than ten
thousand New Zealanders. It wouldn't have been able to access
timely support. And you know the follow next year they're
(13:22):
going to scale They've got plans to scale up even more.
That's actually what matters. They are delivering to the people
that need it. And it's called an outcome.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
You could give that money to other charities that don't
give themselves giant salaries and then you could get so
much more value out of it. And those other charities
never had a chance to bid for this because I
Am Hope was picked by the coalition partners and no
one else got a look.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
In was it? But they hilarity contest, do.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
You think.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Potentially?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
And that's not the best way to turn around mental
health services in New Zealand. The best way is to
run a fair process with the procurement and when that happens,
there's a little bit of competition and those organizations keep
their keep their costs down so they can keep getting contracts.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
But the best way to deliver is actually counseling sessions.
In terms of charities I mean call it for one
of a better phrase. They were shovel really ready. The
outcomes that the counseling sessions that they have delivered is
proof of the fact that they were ready to go.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
We definitely needed the shovels to push the cash around,
didn't they.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
But you know, ten thousand odd people and have had
access to support, and no one's a good outcome.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
No one, especially me, is arguing that of all the
good things that my King's done, I don't have any
question about that. But I have a little bit of
an issue where it's charities. A Chinese company that makes
warships now think about that makes warships has been announced
as the new builder of the two New inter Island fairies.
(15:00):
Both are they? I shall come to you first on
this one. Have you got any slight con that a
company that makes warships making our fairies? I suppose if
you make a ship, you make a ship, don't you wow?
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Well, we are well outside my knowledge, chariot you both.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
You know when when I am sure Minister Peters knows
enough about how New Zealand needs to approach large procurement
projects and the the how we think about security when
we engage with big projects with China. I am sure
and very confident that would have been done. What I'm
(15:42):
not confident about is what the price is, because no
one has said that, and that's been the big mystery
all along with this, with this project. So it would
be great if they could come clean. They've signed a contract,
so we all need to know what the cost is now.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Well, look the good news. The good news is it'll
be significantly less than what you guys going to do.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
You might create that's because you haven't. But of course
you can say anything you want when you don't release
the don't you because you can just make up whatever
fairy tale. But this whole project got canceled incredibly rashly
by Nikola Willis and two years on, no boats. Everything's
delayed and we don't know. The price seems seems fishy
to me.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
But nothing fishy in it but me, look, it's gonna
save billions and just hurry up and wait. But in
terms of your question, Nick, you know, we specify everything
that will go into the Fairies, every item, every piece
of equipment will be independently checked in that standard and
national security considerations are part of the government process and
(16:43):
the intelligency intelligence agencies. They support those processes that are okay.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
But sure, because I know you guys have got to
go and I've got got waye guppy waiting to come
in and have a chat to me. Lots of strikes
happening at the moment everywhere you look. Even even Raine
pains that you have a strike, had a strike yesterday, Mike.
I mean, you must be a little bit worried about
all these strikes, especially when you've got Sammy and Brown
(17:09):
and you know, the senior doctors, You've got teachers, you've
got nurses, even people that make painter on straight.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah. Well, there's not a bottomless pot of tax bars money.
You know, every dollar's got to be weighed about what's sustainable,
what can be delivered from his illness. But look, get
to the negotiating table. Do not choose disruption over negotiation.
You know, bargaining it is about sitting around a table,
(17:39):
having a chat, making compromises, and regrettably we haven't seen
a lot of that lately. So you know, we encourage
them to get to the table and have a conversation
because it's significant disruption to New Zealanders.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I sure if I was listening to people that talk
to me in my social life in my other job.
A lot of them would tell me, of course there's
going to be a lot of strikes. This is all
planned by the labor powers. They're going to try and
to disrupt as much as they can before the election.
Do you reckon that the Labour Party's got anything to
do with these strikes?
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Absolutely not. What this is to do with is the
fact that the government has cut gave tax cuts to
landlords and tobacco companies, meaning they have less money to
spend on public services, and so the key workforces we
depend on, doctors, nurses, teachers, firefighters are not getting cost
(18:32):
of living increases in their pay rounds and that is
the cause of this disruption. The government has the wrong
priorities and for many working people in these public service roles,
you know their conditions are getting worse under this government.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
They have a right strike.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Oh sure. The reason there's no money is because you
lot blew it all and you took inflation up to
seven point three percent and we're literally having the spoonful
of medicine that you dis sed up to the New
Zealand economy.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
That's rubbish. Mike, you had plenty to hand.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Out well co and study economics one oh one, No
go and study economics one oh one.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Why don't we take an economic squiz to get it? Mike?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Do you want to do that?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Probably another time, I think, because I suspected any time
I shot.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Oh gosh, can I Can I be the.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
That would be the blind leading the ridiculous with that,
Oh gosh. I look forward to that on another date.
A pleasure to have you both, Mike, Butterick and Shaver
in the in the studio with me.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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