April 2, 2025 • 23 mins
It’s what US President Donald Trump is calling Liberation Day in the US today; dishing out tariffs on almost every nation on earth. New Zealand exporters will now face 10% tariffs on everything imported into the United States. How should the government respond?
Also, Rail Minister Winston Peters has announced his plans for the Interisland ferry replacements. He’s decided they’ll be 200m long and rail enabled - but no contracts have yet been signed. Was this an underwhelming announcement?
To answer those questions, Labour's health and Wellington issues spokesperson Ayesha Verrall and National's Otaki MP Tim Costley joined Nick Mills for Politics Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b focusing in on the issues
that matter Politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Said bhine, can you make your decision? Join us for
politics Thursday this week in the studio, pretty flash studio.
I mean you self praise there's no praise at all.
Labour's Health and Wellington issue spokes woman Aisha very good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I Sha morning Nick, and happy to be here at
your new digs.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
My new digs, my new digs. I've heard a lot
of things, but not but you digs digs. No taching
you be. Tim Costley, good morning, Till.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yes, good morning you digs.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well have you heard of diggs? Yes?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I remember that term from the eighties. No, it's very darkening.
A lot of photos of you're on the wall. People
can't see this at home, but you have surrounded yourself
with the photos of yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Do you really think that it's me that's done that?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I don't know, but do you really think it's me?
And I have it dark because I've got plenty of lights.
I can turn it up. I just put the temperature up.
I turned the temperature up because I just said she
was a bit golden, welcoming, very welcoming. I just wanted
to have the atmosphere, right, Is it too dark for you?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
No, it's really nice.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's okay, all right, let's go terriffs. Let's start with terriffs.
Oh sure, I'm going to start with you. It's what
Trump's called Liberation Day in the States today, and New
Zealand will be hit with tariffs ten percent tariffs on
everything we import from the United input, export, import into
the United States. Tell me what you make of this.
(01:49):
Will it affect us? How will it affect us? Apart
from ten percent?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah? Absolutely? Will it affect us? Next? Ten percent is
a big barrier to our exporters seeking to sell their
products and services into the United States. United States is
our second largest trading partner. I think it's sixteen billion
dollars of trade that's at stake with the United States.
So it's a really serious issue for our country and
(02:16):
this won't be welcome. I guess the big question is
how much can we and other countries do to neutralize this.
Are there options for our diplomats to get in there
and try strike a better deal?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I mean ten percent to one. What do you say,
sixteen billion, that's a lot of money.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
It's over a billion, yeah, one point.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, that's come a bit closer to your micro Yes,
So I mean, what's the word to him? What are
they saying, what's what's the bee?
Speaker 4 (02:45):
I'm saying, well, look it it's just come out. So
I'm not going to jump the gun on any of
the like our Minister for Trade, Tom McLay. But obviously,
you know, we really value trade. We're a trading nation.
We want to double the value of our trade. Where
we're pursuing free trade agreements because we think actually tariffs
aren't the way of the future. Look, countries are going
(03:06):
to decide what they decide to do. We don't think
that sort of some kind of global trade war is
what will help us. What would help us is the
kind of work we've been doing. You know, we've started
a free trade agreement with India again after ten year hiatus.
We've we've got the one with UAE secured Gulf State.
So we're really working to increase our trade because because
everybody counts, and while ten percent of the US trade
(03:28):
is a barrier, actually there are a lot of other
things we can do. And one of the things we're
working on alongside not just free trade agreements, but as
the non tariff barriers, other things other than towers that
can actually give us a better you foot in the
door there.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
You can't tell me that you guys didn't know that
it was going to be ten or fifteen or twenty percent.
And you and you as the government having put some
some thinking caps on and worked out how you're going
to resolve and how it's going to work or what
costs it's going to cost New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Look, I don't think anyone knew the exact number. No, now,
certainly not what I know. Clearly there were some indications
about the direction he was going, and we see across
all the countries, every country in the world has a
tower of ten is the lowest one. So we've got
the best one that's out there. You know, of a
real range, so you know, you can look at the
glass half full that way. But I don't think any
(04:16):
one knew when you see the range of numbers, exactly
what it was going to be. But of course we're
thinking about it. That's why we work into diversify trade.
We're really looking at Southeast Asia we're looking at in there,
we're looking at the Gulf States, and we're doing all
we can to double the valley of our exports because
that's what ultimately brings more opportunities to Kii families back home.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I learned aisher just in the last couple of weeks
at most upmarket well, you know, reasonable bars and restaurants
and major cities in America have New Zealand wine in them.
If that goes up by ten percent or more than
ten percent, because that's a cost price of ten percent
that it goes up by, that could have some real
ramifications on it. I think the wine industry now is
(04:52):
massive selling exporting. So would that have any real effect.
Are we going to see anything. Are we going to
see people are losing cutting their cost by ten percent.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Well, Drum's logic is that these these tariffs are meant
advantage American producers, primarily manufacturers. He's really keen to bring
manufacturing jobs back to the US relative to other countries.
So the tariffs are designed to give the US producers
a foot up. But so it will be to our
(05:24):
disadvantage to face that extra cost on our exports to
the United States. I think Tim stretching it a little
to say there's a glass half full approach to this.
We are going to have to work with the situation
Trump gives us. But there is no doubt that this
is really troubling development for our economy.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yes, and to the thing that scares me is that
if our exporters want to keep their wine selling at
the same price in a restaurant in America, they've got
to drop their price their bottom line by ten percent.
So are they going to come back and say, well,
I don't need a new tractor this year that's going
to be five percent. Can I get rid of Tommy
and Jane? That's two staff that I don't need what
(06:08):
I could probably perhaps do and try and drop their
prices by ten percent? Is that a concern to it?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I look, anything that impacts keywis is a concern, of course,
But let's see how this plays out. You know, last
week I went and visited Alliance and Live In who
are processing meat from across company across water Fen and
around the Lower North Island. They are exporting into the US.
But we also know there's a huge demand for meat,
particularly you know, making things on hamburger patties in the US,
(06:35):
and the US market alone cannot sustain that. So there's
going to be a demand and it will be interesting
to see how that plays out. Will they you know,
how will these tariffs impact the costs that US consumers
have to pay? And so is there some kind of
trade off here? I don't know, but I just think
let's see how this plays out.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Of course, they were they getting alongside you that the
people like it's getting alongside you and say, gosh, we're
a bit nervous about this tariff, but we lose ten percent. Look,
you know if things go wrong, were they were they
voicing their their concern No.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
That, I mean they've got a pretty diverse market now.
I think fifteen twenty years ago we were strongly invested
in just a couple of markets. But I think everyone's
watching this, and at the time, everyone was willing to
see exactly how does this play out? Is it every country?
Is it every type of product? Are there any carve outs?
Are there any exceptions? I think everyone understands that every government,
(07:26):
and to be fair, any government of any color, would
want to see the best deal for Kiwis overseas.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Do you think either one was Do you think that
I shall come to you first. Do you think the
government should look at say, okay, if you're charging us
ten percent for it, because we're almost neutral, aren't we?
What were important? What we export to America is pretty
name close to neutral. So why don't we just go
back to them and say we'll charge you ten percent.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
I think we we may not do well in escalating
war of tariffs with a big partner like America, so that,
but I do we do need to have some type
of response as a country, perhaps starting with questioning how
the US came to think that we had twenty percent
taxes on their imports would be a start. That's what's
(08:14):
been claimed by the US, and I don't see how
that can really be the case.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Adding GST too, they.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Have we have very low tariffs, that is the fact
of the matter.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Okay, and they're working out our GST as part of
the tariff saying okay, Tim, is that a concern? Well, look,
I don't. I don't.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Like I said before, I said again, tariffs aren't a
good thing. Some kind of escalating global trade war wouldn't
be a good thing either. We think the path to
go down is open and free trade. And also looking
at those non tariff areas cutting.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Through politics Thursday with Labour's Health and Wellington issue spokeswoman
Aishavira nationals O Tachi MP Tim Costly, Just quickly, Tim,
how does that change of the boundaries affect you? Are?
You are?
Speaker 4 (08:57):
You?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Are you safe or less safe? Just quickly?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I lose the top one fin, I pick up a
little bit down to Whitby about the same.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
You don't not concerned? No, not more labor voters and
sneaking into your area.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Oh, the national voters are popping up everywhere at the moment.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I just just want to double check on that. Fairies.
Rail Minister Winston Peters has announced as plans for the
inter Island Fery replacement. He's decided that they will be
two hundred meters long, rail enabled and there'll be some
works on the wharfs, but nowhere near as much as
the last plan. I shut. This announcement to me was
(09:34):
nothing more than a shopping list. I mean, we heard
that Nichola Willis had it real close to putting everything together.
Winston comes in and says, I need it rail enabled
and I'm going to put it all together. What did
you expect to find out? And what did you find.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Out, Well, we found out no costs and no contracts.
I think we have a clearer timeline and the timeline
is a bit of a worry too. So just when
the current ferries will be limping towards the end of
their life is the date we can expect the new
faeries so much delayed on the original plan because of
the poorly considered a cancelation of their original contract.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Do you think that there's those theories that we're using
at the moment are really going to last twenty twenty
nine or longer, because the plan is for twenty and
twenty nine, the new faories. But you know, they've got
to build them, they've got to design them, they've got
to get them, get them here.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, and that's why it's twenty twenty nine, right. But
we're a government that delivers and and they're great. They're
bigger than the current ones that we've got that they've
got the rail function. And look, you gave me your
hard time a month ago and said, are we really
going to get it by the end of March the announcement.
We've got the announcement, by the.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Word, we didn't really we got an announcement about an announcement.
We didn't get told. This is what the photo, this
is what the fairy is going to look like, this.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Is what's going to do building. They can't take the photo.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
But I'm saying, you know, you have a mock up
and you know what's going on. We didn't get you
got no contracts. We said that they'll be here by
twenty twenty nine. I don't think we've got a lot,
And you keep saying.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Look, I think I think we've got the critical details
that we need. That there's two theories that are bigger
than the current ones, but they don't need the significant
warf or port infrastructure, which means we will save billions
of dollars. As a country. We can't afford to keep
going down the road we're going down where the costs
we're blowing out to over three billion for ferries that
are only going to cost about four hundred million. So
(11:27):
this is actually really so you don't.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Really answer my question if you feel safe and happy
to you take your family on those old fairies that
keep breaking down or running aground in twenty happily.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Going on that theory tomorrow. It is, But infrastructure takes
time right. The new road that we're building ti live
in will take until twenty twenty nine. The new electric
trains or commuter trains going all the way from Wellington
to Pumps North are twenty twenty nine. This is the
kind of time frames that big projects going, but they
need to be done right. These are new theories that
gets thirty years of working life, which is an enduring solution.
(12:01):
That's actually a great thing.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So the answer is you do believe that the old
ones will last us till tooy twenty nine or further
if they need to. Yes, okay, iis a viral Chris
Hipkins actually admitted that he got it wrong. He admitted
that the idea of the big fairies and the infrastructure
costs and that we're going to be too expensive and
he got it wrong. How did that? How did that
make you fair? What did you think when he made
(12:23):
that announcement.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well, you'll recall Nick if we if you're remember and
go back to when I started appearing on the show
and we're discussing this exact issue after the election. Nikola
Willis was here as Finance Minister at that At that
point we had not agreed the deal of the deal
that was presented to us at the election, and we
(12:45):
were keeping pressure on Key we rail to go back
and relook at it. We were in a situation where
the costs had gone up because of the required infrastructure.
But as Chris Hipkins said, it was Winston Peters who
put out a press release saying we're getting bigger, better
fairies that committed us to that, to the larger fairies
that required the arjupport side infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
But the end of the day, you've got your own
leader coming out and saying we got it wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Well, it's important that politicians do do that, and I
think there was a pretty good explanation of why it
was the larger theories that Winston Peters announced, and you
saw that he's reluctant to accept his responsibility for his
role in that decision.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Okay, well now I've got to say though, I mean,
it is good that they've admitted where they got it wrong,
because it was wrong. That's why we had to cancel
that deal. But it's another example of labor just flip flopping.
They've done the same on infrastructure after an infrastructure investment summit.
They did the same with police last week. They sat
in the studio and said they didn't support the Green
Party comments. Over the weekend they kissed and made up
(13:51):
and said, oh, actually it was pretty valid stuff. So
you know, we've just got a labor party that's just
flipping from one to the other and no one really
knows what they stand for or believe in. And the
theories is another example. We just need to get on
and deliver these projects. That's what Kiwis need.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
And I should say to Chris Consumers in the studio
that you know you're going to need a coalition government
to form a government if you if you get close
enough next election, and you know the Greens they're going
to hurt you, not help you.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Look, next election is a is a long way off.
We work really closely with the Greens and Tipati MARII.
We enjoy good relationships with them, like and I think
there's a lot of water to flow under the under
the bridge with them. They've had some tough times over
the last last year and I look forward to seeing
(14:42):
them contribute in the way they always have in Parliament
in a sensible way.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Well, talking about the Greens, they're one of the well
then newest MP Benjamin Doyle is under fire for social
media posts where he says bussy galore. Now Winston Peters
and the MP have both said the posts were in appropriate.
Prime Minister said. The Prime Minister said the posts were inappropriate,
but the Greens say it was a private account and
shouldn't you dragged into the public domain? Oh gosh two?
(15:12):
Were they inappropriate? The post?
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Honestly, I just don't want to get sacked in too
talking about that, but I don't think that you can
have a public and I just.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Wanted to know whether you thought it was inappropriate.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
To be fair, I don't really know what the point
of it was or what it was meant to mean.
I don't know the context of any of it. I
just think and these kind of roles where you're serving
your community, you can't sort of have to you a
public one and a private one. Ultimately that the pragmatic
really is that everything you do reflects on you as
an MP, and and we rightfully hold ourselves to pretty
(15:48):
high standards.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Should I should Should MPs have a private account on Instagram?
I mean it's I mean, there's nothing private when you're
when you're an MP apartment? Is it?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
That's right? There is well there's nothing private on social media,
that's for sure. You know, I'll be pretty I'm pretty
clear to defend you know, things about my home and
family from being in the public eye, and for that reason,
don't put photos of them on social media and that
(16:18):
sort of thing. So's you'll see the post I saw
some of it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Was it an approasiate fact?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Well, I don't know, for the same reason that that
Tim just said. It's I don't know the language concerned,
and therefore I'm not going to set myself up as
some sort of policeman.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
On it, right, Okay. Government announced on Monday that they
will be cutting health and safety requirements for smaller businesses.
Workplace Relations Minister Brook van veld And said many small
businesses are overdoing health and safety policies because they don't
know exactly what's required. I show we already have a
shocking workplace des statistics in this country. We're actually double
(16:57):
or triple what they are in England. I mean, do
we need to cut I believe we do to small businesses,
especially things like bookshops and retails and stuff that there's
no real threat to the staff. Are we overdoing red
tape in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Well, as you just said, Nick, the big issue to
keep in mind here is that twice as many New
Zealanders die in their workplace that occurs in Australia. And
you can't tell me Australia doesn't have a dangerous injury
dangerous industries just like we do, for example, forestry. So
we have a real problem in New Zealand. And I
(17:37):
believe that what's happening here is the government is stepping
away from many of the findings of the Royal Commission
into Pike River Mine that led to the regime we
have for health and safety that is actually there to
protect lives.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Tim We've got also almost a ridiculous thing called a
hotline for road cones. And if you see road cones
that are overused and you can ring up a hot line,
I mean that's going to be the hottest hot line
since you know, Adam was a baby, wasn't it.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Well, row cones are just one visible sign of this invisible,
debilitating culture that we've developed in New Zealand of compliance.
And yes, we need to focus on the critical stuff,
the stuff that will actually save lives, and that remains
so nothing about that has changed. But there have been
so many layers of compliance and rules and regulation that
have been dumped on Kiwi businesses, particularly those small medium
(18:28):
businesses that want to get ahead and create jobs and
create growth. We need to support them and actually cutting
through that red tape is so important. And I think
this is a good thing.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Do you really do? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:38):
I really do. Honestly. I can give you examples from
our own career and aviation. We had to fill in
things flight aviation risk matro seas and people would fill
them in and go, great, We've done that. Now we're saved. No,
we're not. Nothing has actually changed. We've just filled in
a bit of paper. It hasn't tangibly changed anything. You
need to do the actions that actually add real, genuine
(18:59):
safety value that will save lives. Exactly the point that
I just making. But we have to get rid of
the ones that are just papering over the cracks, add
layers of paper with rules and compliance. Where we get
you know, farmers spending thirty percent of their time doing paperwork,
not out on the farm, you know, producing them stuff
that we export around the world and bring growth to
this country. So this is a great thing.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I shall I've got to ask you, because of your
position as Labour's health spokesperson, the case of this horrible
case of this eleven year old girl, what did you
make of it? What did you you know? You're a mother,
you're a medical expert, you're a doctor. I mean, what
did you make of this when you saw this report?
And now the the review? I mean, I think it's
(19:44):
a soft review.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, what an incredibly distressing situation As a parent, you know,
to think that your child could end up receiving being
in handcuffs and receiving psychiatric medicine without because there was
a misunderstanding that they were an adult is incredibly distressing.
(20:07):
It's certainly not good enough management of that child. I
think the right questions are asked by that report in
terms of the various things that fell down, the lack
of good practice around identifying the person concerned and who
was being medicated. There is an intention to do more
(20:28):
about that, and it's really important that we hold the
services to account.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Does it concernments Does it concern you as a medical
expert that a person can get medicated without being identified?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yes, yes, particularly because, as was the case in this situation,
the medicine that's not suitable for children was given on
the base of not properly identifying their age.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Tim, I know that you haven't been forewarned on this case,
and you know you don't know a lot about it,
but even you, as a parent must be concerned that
somebody can get get medicated without being identified. And there's
no no heads are rolling, everyone's apologized and we carry
on and carry on with our life.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah, yeah, of course that's that's incredibly distressing and and
multiple sort of layers or failure points in this situation, right,
the holes in the Swiss cheese so to speak, have
lined up, and of course we want to make sure
that's not going to happen happen again. In terms of
whether or not an individual is wholly responsible for that
and how that gets addressed, well, only Health and Z
(21:38):
or the appropriate authorities have a look at.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
The review and they're saying they're saying nobody's going to
lose their job and then nothing's going to change. Well
that means they're going to change their reporting and they're
going to change this. But there's no real line of responsibility.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Well, it probably depends where the fault lies, right, So
if if if if someone had intentionally done the wrong thing,
that would be very different. So if the process didn't exist,
or the or the that you know, the procedures were
in place, whatever it might be. But I'm just not
an expert in this stuff, so it's hard for me
to give you exactly what the conclusion should be.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I think, Tim, you've touched on the right thing, that
so many things go wrong in our system because of
multiple holes in the Swiss cheese. As you say, not
any one person acting maliciously, but a number of situations
lining up. And I think we don't have the right
to sue in New Zealand because of acc and therefore
we need to be even better at delivering accountability for patients,
(22:35):
and we need to make sure the Health and Disability
Commissioner investigates things like this in a timely way and
clears its backlog.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Can I just have a yes or no to aisha
from you? Could a eleven year old be mistaken for
a twenty year old, remembering that you are a medical.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Expert, it's a stretch to think how that could happen.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Thank you, appreciate both of you. Tim Costley and Isa
Viral have a great week in Parliament.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Thank you For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills,
Listen live to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine
am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b focusing in on the issues
that matter Politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Said bhine, can you make your decision? Join us for
politics Thursday this week in the studio, pretty flash studio.
I mean you self praise there's no praise at all.
Labour's Health and Wellington issue spokes woman Aisha very good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I Sha morning Nick, and happy to be here at
your new digs.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
My new digs, my new digs. I've heard a lot
of things, but not but you digs digs. No taching
you be. Tim Costley, good morning, Till.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yes, good morning you digs.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well have you heard of diggs? Yes?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I remember that term from the eighties. No, it's very darkening.
A lot of photos of you're on the wall. People
can't see this at home, but you have surrounded yourself
with the photos of yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Do you really think that it's me that's done that?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I don't know, but do you really think it's me?
And I have it dark because I've got plenty of lights.
I can turn it up. I just put the temperature up.
I turned the temperature up because I just said she
was a bit golden, welcoming, very welcoming. I just wanted
to have the atmosphere, right, Is it too dark for you?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
No, it's really nice.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's okay, all right, let's go terriffs. Let's start with terriffs.
Oh sure, I'm going to start with you. It's what
Trump's called Liberation Day in the States today, and New
Zealand will be hit with tariffs ten percent tariffs on
everything we import from the United input, export, import into
the United States. Tell me what you make of this.
(01:49):
Will it affect us? How will it affect us? Apart
from ten percent?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah? Absolutely? Will it affect us? Next? Ten percent is
a big barrier to our exporters seeking to sell their
products and services into the United States. United States is
our second largest trading partner. I think it's sixteen billion
dollars of trade that's at stake with the United States.
So it's a really serious issue for our country and
(02:16):
this won't be welcome. I guess the big question is
how much can we and other countries do to neutralize this.
Are there options for our diplomats to get in there
and try strike a better deal?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I mean ten percent to one. What do you say,
sixteen billion, that's a lot of money.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
It's over a billion, yeah, one point.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, that's come a bit closer to your micro Yes,
So I mean, what's the word to him? What are
they saying, what's what's the bee?
Speaker 4 (02:45):
I'm saying, well, look it it's just come out. So
I'm not going to jump the gun on any of
the like our Minister for Trade, Tom McLay. But obviously,
you know, we really value trade. We're a trading nation.
We want to double the value of our trade. Where
we're pursuing free trade agreements because we think actually tariffs
aren't the way of the future. Look, countries are going
(03:06):
to decide what they decide to do. We don't think
that sort of some kind of global trade war is
what will help us. What would help us is the
kind of work we've been doing. You know, we've started
a free trade agreement with India again after ten year hiatus.
We've we've got the one with UAE secured Gulf State.
So we're really working to increase our trade because because
everybody counts, and while ten percent of the US trade
(03:28):
is a barrier, actually there are a lot of other
things we can do. And one of the things we're
working on alongside not just free trade agreements, but as
the non tariff barriers, other things other than towers that
can actually give us a better you foot in the
door there.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
You can't tell me that you guys didn't know that
it was going to be ten or fifteen or twenty percent.
And you and you as the government having put some
some thinking caps on and worked out how you're going
to resolve and how it's going to work or what
costs it's going to cost New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Look, I don't think anyone knew the exact number. No, now,
certainly not what I know. Clearly there were some indications
about the direction he was going, and we see across
all the countries, every country in the world has a
tower of ten is the lowest one. So we've got
the best one that's out there. You know, of a
real range, so you know, you can look at the
glass half full that way. But I don't think any
(04:16):
one knew when you see the range of numbers, exactly
what it was going to be. But of course we're
thinking about it. That's why we work into diversify trade.
We're really looking at Southeast Asia we're looking at in there,
we're looking at the Gulf States, and we're doing all
we can to double the valley of our exports because
that's what ultimately brings more opportunities to Kii families back home.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I learned aisher just in the last couple of weeks
at most upmarket well, you know, reasonable bars and restaurants
and major cities in America have New Zealand wine in them.
If that goes up by ten percent or more than
ten percent, because that's a cost price of ten percent
that it goes up by, that could have some real
ramifications on it. I think the wine industry now is
(04:52):
massive selling exporting. So would that have any real effect.
Are we going to see anything. Are we going to
see people are losing cutting their cost by ten percent.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Well, Drum's logic is that these these tariffs are meant
advantage American producers, primarily manufacturers. He's really keen to bring
manufacturing jobs back to the US relative to other countries.
So the tariffs are designed to give the US producers
a foot up. But so it will be to our
(05:24):
disadvantage to face that extra cost on our exports to
the United States. I think Tim stretching it a little
to say there's a glass half full approach to this.
We are going to have to work with the situation
Trump gives us. But there is no doubt that this
is really troubling development for our economy.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yes, and to the thing that scares me is that
if our exporters want to keep their wine selling at
the same price in a restaurant in America, they've got
to drop their price their bottom line by ten percent.
So are they going to come back and say, well,
I don't need a new tractor this year that's going
to be five percent. Can I get rid of Tommy
and Jane? That's two staff that I don't need what
(06:08):
I could probably perhaps do and try and drop their
prices by ten percent? Is that a concern to it?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I look, anything that impacts keywis is a concern, of course,
But let's see how this plays out. You know, last
week I went and visited Alliance and Live In who
are processing meat from across company across water Fen and
around the Lower North Island. They are exporting into the US.
But we also know there's a huge demand for meat,
particularly you know, making things on hamburger patties in the US,
(06:35):
and the US market alone cannot sustain that. So there's
going to be a demand and it will be interesting
to see how that plays out. Will they you know,
how will these tariffs impact the costs that US consumers
have to pay? And so is there some kind of
trade off here? I don't know, but I just think
let's see how this plays out.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Of course, they were they getting alongside you that the
people like it's getting alongside you and say, gosh, we're
a bit nervous about this tariff, but we lose ten percent. Look,
you know if things go wrong, were they were they
voicing their their concern No.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
That, I mean they've got a pretty diverse market now.
I think fifteen twenty years ago we were strongly invested
in just a couple of markets. But I think everyone's
watching this, and at the time, everyone was willing to
see exactly how does this play out? Is it every country?
Is it every type of product? Are there any carve outs?
Are there any exceptions? I think everyone understands that every government,
(07:26):
and to be fair, any government of any color, would
want to see the best deal for Kiwis overseas.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Do you think either one was Do you think that
I shall come to you first. Do you think the
government should look at say, okay, if you're charging us
ten percent for it, because we're almost neutral, aren't we?
What were important? What we export to America is pretty
name close to neutral. So why don't we just go
back to them and say we'll charge you ten percent.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
I think we we may not do well in escalating
war of tariffs with a big partner like America, so that,
but I do we do need to have some type
of response as a country, perhaps starting with questioning how
the US came to think that we had twenty percent
taxes on their imports would be a start. That's what's
(08:14):
been claimed by the US, and I don't see how
that can really be the case.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Adding GST too, they.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Have we have very low tariffs, that is the fact
of the matter.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Okay, and they're working out our GST as part of
the tariff saying okay, Tim, is that a concern? Well, look,
I don't. I don't.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Like I said before, I said again, tariffs aren't a
good thing. Some kind of escalating global trade war wouldn't
be a good thing either. We think the path to
go down is open and free trade. And also looking
at those non tariff areas cutting.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Through politics Thursday with Labour's Health and Wellington issue spokeswoman
Aishavira nationals O Tachi MP Tim Costly, Just quickly, Tim,
how does that change of the boundaries affect you? Are?
You are?
Speaker 4 (08:57):
You?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Are you safe or less safe? Just quickly?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I lose the top one fin, I pick up a
little bit down to Whitby about the same.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
You don't not concerned? No, not more labor voters and
sneaking into your area.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Oh, the national voters are popping up everywhere at the moment.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I just just want to double check on that. Fairies.
Rail Minister Winston Peters has announced as plans for the
inter Island Fery replacement. He's decided that they will be
two hundred meters long, rail enabled and there'll be some
works on the wharfs, but nowhere near as much as
the last plan. I shut. This announcement to me was
(09:34):
nothing more than a shopping list. I mean, we heard
that Nichola Willis had it real close to putting everything together.
Winston comes in and says, I need it rail enabled
and I'm going to put it all together. What did
you expect to find out? And what did you find.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Out, Well, we found out no costs and no contracts.
I think we have a clearer timeline and the timeline
is a bit of a worry too. So just when
the current ferries will be limping towards the end of
their life is the date we can expect the new
faeries so much delayed on the original plan because of
the poorly considered a cancelation of their original contract.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Do you think that there's those theories that we're using
at the moment are really going to last twenty twenty
nine or longer, because the plan is for twenty and
twenty nine, the new faories. But you know, they've got
to build them, they've got to design them, they've got
to get them, get them here.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, and that's why it's twenty twenty nine, right. But
we're a government that delivers and and they're great. They're
bigger than the current ones that we've got that they've
got the rail function. And look, you gave me your
hard time a month ago and said, are we really
going to get it by the end of March the announcement.
We've got the announcement, by the.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Word, we didn't really we got an announcement about an announcement.
We didn't get told. This is what the photo, this
is what the fairy is going to look like, this.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Is what's going to do building. They can't take the photo.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
But I'm saying, you know, you have a mock up
and you know what's going on. We didn't get you
got no contracts. We said that they'll be here by
twenty twenty nine. I don't think we've got a lot,
And you keep saying.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Look, I think I think we've got the critical details
that we need. That there's two theories that are bigger
than the current ones, but they don't need the significant
warf or port infrastructure, which means we will save billions
of dollars. As a country. We can't afford to keep
going down the road we're going down where the costs
we're blowing out to over three billion for ferries that
are only going to cost about four hundred million. So
(11:27):
this is actually really so you don't.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Really answer my question if you feel safe and happy
to you take your family on those old fairies that
keep breaking down or running aground in twenty happily.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Going on that theory tomorrow. It is, But infrastructure takes
time right. The new road that we're building ti live
in will take until twenty twenty nine. The new electric
trains or commuter trains going all the way from Wellington
to Pumps North are twenty twenty nine. This is the
kind of time frames that big projects going, but they
need to be done right. These are new theories that
gets thirty years of working life, which is an enduring solution.
(12:01):
That's actually a great thing.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So the answer is you do believe that the old
ones will last us till tooy twenty nine or further
if they need to. Yes, okay, iis a viral Chris
Hipkins actually admitted that he got it wrong. He admitted
that the idea of the big fairies and the infrastructure
costs and that we're going to be too expensive and
he got it wrong. How did that? How did that
make you fair? What did you think when he made
(12:23):
that announcement.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well, you'll recall Nick if we if you're remember and
go back to when I started appearing on the show
and we're discussing this exact issue after the election. Nikola
Willis was here as Finance Minister at that At that
point we had not agreed the deal of the deal
that was presented to us at the election, and we
(12:45):
were keeping pressure on Key we rail to go back
and relook at it. We were in a situation where
the costs had gone up because of the required infrastructure.
But as Chris Hipkins said, it was Winston Peters who
put out a press release saying we're getting bigger, better
fairies that committed us to that, to the larger fairies
that required the arjupport side infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
But the end of the day, you've got your own
leader coming out and saying we got it wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Well, it's important that politicians do do that, and I
think there was a pretty good explanation of why it
was the larger theories that Winston Peters announced, and you
saw that he's reluctant to accept his responsibility for his
role in that decision.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Okay, well now I've got to say though, I mean,
it is good that they've admitted where they got it wrong,
because it was wrong. That's why we had to cancel
that deal. But it's another example of labor just flip flopping.
They've done the same on infrastructure after an infrastructure investment summit.
They did the same with police last week. They sat
in the studio and said they didn't support the Green
Party comments. Over the weekend they kissed and made up
(13:51):
and said, oh, actually it was pretty valid stuff. So
you know, we've just got a labor party that's just
flipping from one to the other and no one really
knows what they stand for or believe in. And the
theories is another example. We just need to get on
and deliver these projects. That's what Kiwis need.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
And I should say to Chris Consumers in the studio
that you know you're going to need a coalition government
to form a government if you if you get close
enough next election, and you know the Greens they're going
to hurt you, not help you.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Look, next election is a is a long way off.
We work really closely with the Greens and Tipati MARII.
We enjoy good relationships with them, like and I think
there's a lot of water to flow under the under
the bridge with them. They've had some tough times over
the last last year and I look forward to seeing
(14:42):
them contribute in the way they always have in Parliament
in a sensible way.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Well, talking about the Greens, they're one of the well
then newest MP Benjamin Doyle is under fire for social
media posts where he says bussy galore. Now Winston Peters
and the MP have both said the posts were in appropriate.
Prime Minister said. The Prime Minister said the posts were inappropriate,
but the Greens say it was a private account and
shouldn't you dragged into the public domain? Oh gosh two?
(15:12):
Were they inappropriate? The post?
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Honestly, I just don't want to get sacked in too
talking about that, but I don't think that you can
have a public and I just.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Wanted to know whether you thought it was inappropriate.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
To be fair, I don't really know what the point
of it was or what it was meant to mean.
I don't know the context of any of it. I
just think and these kind of roles where you're serving
your community, you can't sort of have to you a
public one and a private one. Ultimately that the pragmatic
really is that everything you do reflects on you as
an MP, and and we rightfully hold ourselves to pretty
(15:48):
high standards.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Should I should Should MPs have a private account on Instagram?
I mean it's I mean, there's nothing private when you're
when you're an MP apartment? Is it?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
That's right? There is well there's nothing private on social media,
that's for sure. You know, I'll be pretty I'm pretty
clear to defend you know, things about my home and
family from being in the public eye, and for that reason,
don't put photos of them on social media and that
(16:18):
sort of thing. So's you'll see the post I saw
some of it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Was it an approasiate fact?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Well, I don't know, for the same reason that that
Tim just said. It's I don't know the language concerned,
and therefore I'm not going to set myself up as
some sort of policeman.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
On it, right, Okay. Government announced on Monday that they
will be cutting health and safety requirements for smaller businesses.
Workplace Relations Minister Brook van veld And said many small
businesses are overdoing health and safety policies because they don't
know exactly what's required. I show we already have a
shocking workplace des statistics in this country. We're actually double
(16:57):
or triple what they are in England. I mean, do
we need to cut I believe we do to small businesses,
especially things like bookshops and retails and stuff that there's
no real threat to the staff. Are we overdoing red
tape in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Well, as you just said, Nick, the big issue to
keep in mind here is that twice as many New
Zealanders die in their workplace that occurs in Australia. And
you can't tell me Australia doesn't have a dangerous injury
dangerous industries just like we do, for example, forestry. So
we have a real problem in New Zealand. And I
(17:37):
believe that what's happening here is the government is stepping
away from many of the findings of the Royal Commission
into Pike River Mine that led to the regime we
have for health and safety that is actually there to
protect lives.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Tim We've got also almost a ridiculous thing called a
hotline for road cones. And if you see road cones
that are overused and you can ring up a hot line,
I mean that's going to be the hottest hot line
since you know, Adam was a baby, wasn't it.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Well, row cones are just one visible sign of this invisible,
debilitating culture that we've developed in New Zealand of compliance.
And yes, we need to focus on the critical stuff,
the stuff that will actually save lives, and that remains
so nothing about that has changed. But there have been
so many layers of compliance and rules and regulation that
have been dumped on Kiwi businesses, particularly those small medium
(18:28):
businesses that want to get ahead and create jobs and
create growth. We need to support them and actually cutting
through that red tape is so important. And I think
this is a good thing.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Do you really do? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:38):
I really do. Honestly. I can give you examples from
our own career and aviation. We had to fill in
things flight aviation risk matro seas and people would fill
them in and go, great, We've done that. Now we're saved. No,
we're not. Nothing has actually changed. We've just filled in
a bit of paper. It hasn't tangibly changed anything. You
need to do the actions that actually add real, genuine
(18:59):
safety value that will save lives. Exactly the point that
I just making. But we have to get rid of
the ones that are just papering over the cracks, add
layers of paper with rules and compliance. Where we get
you know, farmers spending thirty percent of their time doing paperwork,
not out on the farm, you know, producing them stuff
that we export around the world and bring growth to
this country. So this is a great thing.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I shall I've got to ask you, because of your
position as Labour's health spokesperson, the case of this horrible
case of this eleven year old girl, what did you
make of it? What did you you know? You're a mother,
you're a medical expert, you're a doctor. I mean, what
did you make of this when you saw this report?
And now the the review? I mean, I think it's
(19:44):
a soft review.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, what an incredibly distressing situation As a parent, you know,
to think that your child could end up receiving being
in handcuffs and receiving psychiatric medicine without because there was
a misunderstanding that they were an adult is incredibly distressing.
(20:07):
It's certainly not good enough management of that child. I
think the right questions are asked by that report in
terms of the various things that fell down, the lack
of good practice around identifying the person concerned and who
was being medicated. There is an intention to do more
(20:28):
about that, and it's really important that we hold the
services to account.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Does it concernments Does it concern you as a medical
expert that a person can get medicated without being identified?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yes, yes, particularly because, as was the case in this situation,
the medicine that's not suitable for children was given on
the base of not properly identifying their age.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Tim, I know that you haven't been forewarned on this case,
and you know you don't know a lot about it,
but even you, as a parent must be concerned that
somebody can get get medicated without being identified. And there's
no no heads are rolling, everyone's apologized and we carry
on and carry on with our life.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah, yeah, of course that's that's incredibly distressing and and
multiple sort of layers or failure points in this situation, right,
the holes in the Swiss cheese so to speak, have
lined up, and of course we want to make sure
that's not going to happen happen again. In terms of
whether or not an individual is wholly responsible for that
and how that gets addressed, well, only Health and Z
(21:38):
or the appropriate authorities have a look at.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
The review and they're saying they're saying nobody's going to
lose their job and then nothing's going to change. Well
that means they're going to change their reporting and they're
going to change this. But there's no real line of responsibility.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Well, it probably depends where the fault lies, right, So
if if if if someone had intentionally done the wrong thing,
that would be very different. So if the process didn't exist,
or the or the that you know, the procedures were
in place, whatever it might be. But I'm just not
an expert in this stuff, so it's hard for me
to give you exactly what the conclusion should be.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I think, Tim, you've touched on the right thing, that
so many things go wrong in our system because of
multiple holes in the Swiss cheese. As you say, not
any one person acting maliciously, but a number of situations
lining up. And I think we don't have the right
to sue in New Zealand because of acc and therefore
we need to be even better at delivering accountability for patients,
(22:35):
and we need to make sure the Health and Disability
Commissioner investigates things like this in a timely way and
clears its backlog.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Can I just have a yes or no to aisha
from you? Could a eleven year old be mistaken for
a twenty year old, remembering that you are a medical.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Expert, it's a stretch to think how that could happen.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Thank you, appreciate both of you. Tim Costley and Isa
Viral have a great week in Parliament.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Thank you For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills,
Listen live to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine
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