Former ministers Chris Hipkins, Jacinda Ardern, Grant Roberston and Ayesha Verrall have refused to front up for public hearings at the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Covid-19. Are they ducking for cover, or is there a good reason not to show up?
Also, yesterday Green's co-leader Chloe Swarbrick was 'named' and booted from the house for a week for saying some government MPs needed to “grow a spine” and support her bill. Was this punishment justified?
To answer those questions, Labour’s health and Wellington issues spokeswoman Ayesha Verrall and National’s Otaki MP Tim Costley joined Nick Mills for Politics Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
B's Shine, can you making right decision? Aver Shine? Can
you making join us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
For politics Thursday? This week is Labor's Health and Wellington's
Issue spokeswoman Ai Shavira money Ice. How you doing very
well here? I'm just trying to get your mic on. Sorry,
I've got the wrong mic on. There you go, try
that morning.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Nice to be here, Nick, Nice.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
To have you here too. We'll come to you in
a second. We'll ask you a question and a second.
But we also want to welcome O Techy's MP Tim
Costly and good morning.
Speaker 5 (01:06):
To Yes, good morning and look the people answered. I've delivered.
I'm here in the studio. I just been you know,
calling for it. We're here.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Great, it's excited at having you both here. Right, Let's
get into it. Let's start. Chris Sipkins, Zinder Adurn, Grant
Robinson and yourself Zinder as I shall have refused to
front up for public hearings next week at the Royal
Commission of Inquiry to COVID nineteen. Now, when I first
read this, I know you reasonably well. I've spent a
(01:35):
bit of time with you and got to know you
reasonably well, probably spent ten or so hours together, so
we know each other well. I was really disappointed because
I thought you were a fronter.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Well. I have fronted to the Royal Commission, the second
Royal Commission as well as the first one at this
With this Royal Commission, I've given them written answers to
all of their questions vs as have all the other
other ministers, and I've been interviewed on those questions as well.
The Royal Commission is important. It's into the lessons learned
(02:09):
from the pandemic, and that's why we're fully cooperated with
answering those quests.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Were you part of the Denton's meeting? Were you were
you involved in that or was that like a higher
up than you decision from the Labor Party and you
were just told you're not going to attend that's a
job over well.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
I all of the people participating in the inquiry are
able to have legal representation, and Denton's is my lawyer.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Right, So did they make that decision with you individually
or as a group that no one was going to present,
no one was going to front.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Up the decisions. I stand by the decisions that I
have a good question.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Sorry, but that wasn't the question I've got to get
so I can find were you available to actually front
if you wanted to on your own rather than the
actual labor group.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
I take responsibility for the decisions that I have made
with respect to this. So I think you're trying to
get at some idea that I'm being led by my lawyers.
I have gone to the Commission answered their questions because
I think it's important.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Why will you not front up for the public hearing? Then?
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Well, I have participated in the commission along with the
on the same basis that ministers have participated in previous
Royal commissions, answering, answering all.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Can you get the objects of us? Can you get
that that New Zealand really wanted for you guys to
front up and just ask questions. It wasn't a witch hunt.
It was just we want to know how important do
you think it is to New Zealand and hiding from it,
which it is. I mean fronting for the written stuff
and going and behind closed doors is one thing, But
fronting is another thing. Now I think I think of
(03:53):
you as a fronter.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
And here I am with you now and taking these questions,
which you know we're.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Still in a closed room with a microphone, We're not
in an open forum.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Well tell me how that would make the questions. Well,
it shows that you're broadcasting this right now, and we
have answered questions from the press throughout the response and
for five years now in response to the results of
the first Royal Commission, the second Royal Commission from the
parliamentary opposition.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Joe and you both want to move on to this
to get into other stuff. So can I ask you
a straight up and down question. If you were making
the decision yourself whether you fronted or you didn't front
without being part of the Labor Party organization, would have
you fronted on your own?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Well, I was only a minister because I was part
of the Labor Party. However, I take responsibility for my decisions.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Nick, do you think the Royal Commission is a witch hunt?
Do you think that you people are trying to get
blood from a stone.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
I've participated in it in good faith, so they have
my full and Frank answers on the important questions about
the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Okay, I still want to get back to my initial question,
just for myself, for my own relationship with you, our
listener's relationship with you. If it was up to Aischeverril
whether she showed up, would you have turned up, take
all the other stuff away, the lawyers, the bs, everything away.
Would you have fronted?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Yeah? I take responsibility for the decisions I have made.
I have answered all of their questions.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Okay, was that a yes or no? Yeah, so you
would have.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Fronted No, I take responsibility for my decisions.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
That's not the question. The question was would you have
fronted to this second story?
Speaker 4 (05:37):
I will participate on the same way that all ministers
have participated with previous royal commissions, which you have done.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Can you give me one good reason why you weren't front.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Because I participated in the same way that all ministers,
like National Party Minister Jerry Brownlee, who also faced a
Royal commission after the christ Church earthquakes. That's what I've done.
They've got my full answers.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Tim.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Yes, I feel a little bit sorry for I. So
it feels like she'd really like to say that she
did want to front but she's not allowed. Now. I
don't know what decisions were made, but when you look
at the advice that Chris Hipkins is openly shared, it
says things like, well, we don't want the transcript of
the recordings to be used against us. But here she
is fronting up now and in her own words, what's
the difference? So why wouldn't we We talked about this what
(06:24):
in July on the show about the fact, and everyone
at the time was saying, yeah, that they should be
able to front up. They should come and front up.
I think Kiwi's deserve to hear from the leaders that
made those decisions. This is, in their own words, one
of the biggest events in one hundred years that has
hit this country. You know, even just to look at
the spending of it, sixty six billion in COVID spending,
(06:46):
but half of it didn't even go to COVID, It
went to inflation. We're living with the impact of that now.
I think it's understandable that kiwis want some answers.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, and the question that I get asked, you know,
since in the last twenty four hours from people in
the newsroom, you know, I said, you know, what would
she affronted, I said, yes, that's my assumption is that
you're a fronter.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Well, thank you, and I'll keep answering all the questions
you have, and Tim, if you've got a question for me,
now you can ask me. I've been asked questions about
COVID for the last five years, and I'll keep answering.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
The only two that would jump immediately to mind is
would you do things differently in the MiQ keeping so
many keiwis out keeping Auckland lockdown for so long? And
the second one I think people want to hear about
is you know sixty six billion in COVID spending half
of that the Treasure Independent Treasure reports is didn't go
to health initiatives, didn't go to COVID. It just got spent.
(07:39):
And we know, and maybe it's the benefit of hindsight.
Though people called it at the time, it caused significant
inflation seven point three percent. Just stand by those decisions.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
There were no decisions without cost during the COVID nineteen pandemic. Clearly,
the decisions that we made had consequences, but the other
options that we faced would have had very bad consequences
as well. On the matter of MiQ, which I was
more able to speak about than some of those financial ones.
(08:11):
I'd say that, yes, we accept the findings of the
First Royal Commission, and you know it'll be great if
those were implemented.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Can I jump in with one quick, quick question, when
you put your hair on the pillow at night and
think about it, because you're obviously an extremely smart woman,
do you think that you personally or your party personally
made any mistakes? And I don't want to know what
they are. I just want to know whether you thought,
you know I do that every night?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
I should have asha that, yeah, absolutely, And some of
them were canvassed in the report for the First Royal Commission.
And you've heard us except the findings the findings of that.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Will share Will you share with us mistake that you
think you may.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Well? Chris has already said, and I agree that that
time coming out of the Bakland lockdown was very very
hard on people, and striking that balance about when to
release controls so as not to cause more people to
(09:22):
die than we had was an incredibly difficult one. A
bit long well, Chris, Chris has said he thinks there's
a couple of weeks there I've looked back over it
in the course of replying to the Royal Commission and
I can't see information that we had at the time
(09:44):
that makes that difficult.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Different politics Thursday, with Labour's Health and Wellington's issues spokeswoman
Aieviril and National's o Taqi MP Tim Costley both in
the studio with us, which is lovely. Yesterday Chloe Swarbrick
was named and booted from the House for a week
for saying some government MPs need to grow a spine
(10:05):
and support her bill. Tim, how is this fair? When
John Key yelled get some guts and Jerry gave him
a standing ovation.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Uh, it's fair because the Speaker asked her to apologize
and she didn't. And and look, I have no doubt
that there is a lot of intentionality behind everything that
Chloe does. And she's seem pretty happy the first day.
In fact, she said I will happily leave. She was happy,
in her own words, to be kicked out. And then
she came back yesterday having been told you can come
(10:38):
back if you're coming back to apologize. She got given
the opportunity and she said no. She effectively gave She
gave the Speaker the mid reaction, Well, we can't run
a democratic parliament with people just going off and doing
their own thing.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
That there are a set of we have seen a
lot worse. Let's be fair. In your very little time
in parliament, you've seen what You've seen a haker and
pointing a gun at people. You've seen people green peas
going across and throwing stuff. Happened.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
No, no, we did the whole There were weeks where
the media we're talking about the fact that there was
a consequence for all of those things you've mentioned. In fact,
all the ones you mentioned went to the Privileges Committee,
which has not happened in this case. It hasn't got
to that level. But when the speaker stands up, everyone
sits down and is quiet. When the speaker tells someone
to leave or an associate assistant speaker, a debut speaker,
(11:27):
you leave and we have to follow the rules. Look, look,
this is in my view, I think it's just an
attempt to get some more media and publicity and it
will settle down when that disappears.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I shoot, Jerry overstepped the mark. He didn't he or
did he? What's your view?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
In our view, this was the punishment for close Warbrock
didn't fit the crime for the exact reasons that you've mentioned,
Nack that John Key did basically exactly the same thing and.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Got a standing ovation.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it is inconsistent. It is
over the top, and the real issue that she was
trying to draw a tention to is the issue of
the humanitarian crisis in Gaza that's been a really distressing
issue for all of us as New Zealanders to watch
(12:19):
on our television screens every night, and the government's failure
to take a stand on Palestinian statehood when a number
of other countries who are traditional partners on things France, England, Australia,
Canada have been able to take that stand. It is
an action that will help the Palestinians negotiate a better
(12:43):
outcome from the situation they're currently in, and the government
should do that.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
I'm sorry, I'm not going to take a moral lecture
from iha or from the Labor Party about moral courage
to do something when firstly, in twenty twenty one, Ihavel
sat in the House and voted no to recognizing Palestine
as a state, as did all of Labor, so it's
cute to say things when you're opposition, but it was
very different when she was part of the cabinet. Secondly,
(13:11):
they weren't even front for an inquiry and to the
actions of that government, and yet they're saying, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
After all, I think in fairness and fairness to me,
I did not call you the word that Chloe Swawbrook did.
I did not, and I didn't say it was right.
I also I said that the punishment for it was disproportionate,
so that that is what I said. But this is
a very real issue and other countries, like like the
(13:39):
Labor Party have changed their position. Why can't you Well what.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
You've seen from our government, from the Prime Minister and
the Minister of Foreign Affairs actually consistently for a number
of months is this is this move to work with
other countries to change positions. We have said that it's
a matter of if not when, But we have to
go through this because it's one thing to recognize the
Palestinian state. It's another thing to recognize or to come
out and support harmas who are Championship Australia coming out
(14:07):
saying isn't it great that Australia are supporting her Mass.
That's what they've been saying overnight. We cannot be supporting
a terrorist organization. So we have to be we have
to do and how we do this, and we have
to do this problem.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
No one suggesting that Australia, no credible person is suggesting
what Australia Kingdom are supporting.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Was that easy?
Speaker 5 (14:29):
You would have voted yes in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Well, what has happened is that there is an emerging
genocide in Palestine and one of the things we can
do to change that is to recognize that they are
a state now. It is one of the things.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Tim, can I just ask you one little quick question.
Has Israel lost the plot?
Speaker 5 (14:49):
Look, just as I would separate Palestine from her Mass,
I think we need to separate that the longer term
concept of Israel from Nehan Yahoo. I don't support what
the Yahoo regime is doing in terms of that on
the border.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Whether you agree with your prime minister, has he lost
the plot?
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Well?
Speaker 5 (15:07):
The other words that the Prime minister chose to use, but.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
You don't want to use them, you don't agree with them.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Ah, No, it's just not just you either agree with
them or Look, I think what they're doing on the border.
Then that that humanity and christ is wrong. They need that.
The fighting they both sides.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Have they lost the plot. Well what your prime minister said,
they've lost the plot yet? Now who's lost the plot?
Do you agree or not?
Speaker 4 (15:29):
He wants to be foreign minister one day.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Look it's not the frame. Okay, all right, you know
Pam can say Pame is the boss man. He can,
he can language he wants to use.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I get there. Let's talk about polling. Let's go to polling.
We saw two poles this week, one from Curia which
showed Labor in front of National by two points, and
a one used poll which showed National just one point
ahead of Labor but also showed Luxelon's worst popularity in
two years. Tim, Tim, why are you guys struggling so much?
And why does no one like the prime minister?
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Well?
Speaker 5 (16:01):
I don't agree with that. To start with, Look, while
we struggling, I think every key we struggling. And it
comes back to your very first question. And we've talked
about the deep roots of inflation and cost of living
crisis that go back to all that extra spending in
twenty one, twenty two, twenty three. It is tough out there,
and we see that in the polls. About a third
of people say they'd support national about a third say
(16:22):
they'd support labor, about a third are really uncertain, and
I think we can understand where that uncertainty comes from.
But every week, more families are refixing their mortgage and
finding it's about three hundred dollars cheaper per fortnite. Every week,
more families are getting a little bit extra support with
their early childhood payments. Every week, more families are just
finding that progress. It takes a long time to fix
(16:47):
that deep cost of living challenge that we found, but
we are making progress even today, Q we bank of
load mortgages again. More and more families are refixing it,
and every week we'll see progress. But it takes time,
and I'm confident that by the election you'll see that
reflected in the polls.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Oh should do you think that the polls might slip
this couple more coming out in the next couple of
weeks or something like here? So do you reckon polls
might react to a your powerful for not fronting b
Your education spokesperson been open having open invitation and dialogue
with with Erek Stamford and not replying, not even having
the nicety to send an emojo back. Do you reckon
(17:23):
that it might affect you your ratings?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
What I see in the polls, both the published ones
and the research we get as a party, is that
the big issues won't be a surprise to you are
the economy, cost of living, and concerns about the health
care system and access to healthcare slipping away. So I
can tell you from the other side of it, as
(17:47):
an opposition party, getting issues to get attention when people
are so worried about the cost of living is tough.
So I'm not sure if those particular events this week
will impeake the polls.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Can I be a bit cheeky and ask, we ask
you when we're going to start seeing some policies on taxation,
because I mean, I know there's been a lot of
talk for a lot of months, almost years about your
new taxation. When are we going to start getting something
from labored?
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Or we talked about this a couple of weeks ago,
didn't we? And I said, has already been said that
that will be released released this year and you'll see
that labor will start to roll out a credible plan
for addressing the challenges New Zealand's are feeling with the
cost of living, access to the health system which is
getting worse, not better. Housing affordability which in particularly homelessness,
(18:37):
which is getting worse, not better.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
But surely you can roll out taxing the family home.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Well, I'm not here to announce our policy. That will
happen in due course, and thank you for that mischievous
contribution to the debate.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Well, but this is my fundamental point, right Kiwis are
finding it tough out there. We're really clear about what
we're doing to try and tackle that cost of living challenges.
Are letting people, well, it's letting people take home more
of the money they you in the tax cuts that
you voted against. It's target inflation, you know, starting with
the changes to Reserve Bank, which you're voted against. It's
(19:12):
so that mortgage rates come down, costs come down, rents
have come down for the first time in fifteen years.
That's a good sign. Early childhood payments, which you voted against.
There are lots of things happening, but at least the
opposition has one job, which is a to answer questions
about the past, which I would argue got us to
this point COVID spending through twenty one to twenty three.
They're not willing to answer those questions in a public forum. Secondly,
(19:34):
at least tell us what you do differently. But all
that we see is voting against things that made a
tangible difference to Keiwi incomes having more money in your
pocket at the end of the week, and we should
be supported.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Under if the people listening at home are feeling that difference.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Tip and the problem that I've got with that comment
is rates out of control, insurance out of control. The
little bits of money that you're giving us absolutely doesn't
even cover you know, I.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
I three hundred dollars extra a fortnite on the average mortgage.
That is a significant amount of money across the year.
Rates are out of control, which is why we've been
very vocal and criticized by Labor for it about councils
needed to rain in their spending and be more responsible
about we need to, you know, considering things like rate
caps and how much they can increase.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Can I tell you that my next door neighbor a
couple of weeks ago told me that their pension went
up three dollars eighty a week. Yeh, three dollars eighty
a week, and his insurance bill went up two and
a half grand and his rates went up four grand.
Six grand is two dollars.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
And that's cool. Inflation and what causes inflation? Wasteful spending?
And when do we see that? Let's have a look
at that COVID inquiry.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Okay, thank you both. I appreciate you both coming in.
It's great to have you in the studio and hopefully
there won't be too much of an argument in the
lift on the way out.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Thanks Nick.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
See Lad, Tim Costley and Aishaverral joining us.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news talks There'd be Wellington from nine am week days,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
B's Shine, can you making right decision? Aver Shine? Can
you making join us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
For politics Thursday? This week is Labor's Health and Wellington's
Issue spokeswoman Ai Shavira money Ice. How you doing very
well here? I'm just trying to get your mic on. Sorry,
I've got the wrong mic on. There you go, try
that morning.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Nice to be here, Nick, Nice.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
To have you here too. We'll come to you in
a second. We'll ask you a question and a second.
But we also want to welcome O Techy's MP Tim
Costly and good morning.
Speaker 5 (01:06):
To Yes, good morning and look the people answered. I've delivered.
I'm here in the studio. I just been you know,
calling for it. We're here.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Great, it's excited at having you both here. Right, Let's
get into it. Let's start. Chris Sipkins, Zinder Adurn, Grant
Robinson and yourself Zinder as I shall have refused to
front up for public hearings next week at the Royal
Commission of Inquiry to COVID nineteen. Now, when I first
read this, I know you reasonably well. I've spent a
(01:35):
bit of time with you and got to know you
reasonably well, probably spent ten or so hours together, so
we know each other well. I was really disappointed because
I thought you were a fronter.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Well. I have fronted to the Royal Commission, the second
Royal Commission as well as the first one at this
With this Royal Commission, I've given them written answers to
all of their questions vs as have all the other
other ministers, and I've been interviewed on those questions as well.
The Royal Commission is important. It's into the lessons learned
(02:09):
from the pandemic, and that's why we're fully cooperated with
answering those quests.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Were you part of the Denton's meeting? Were you were
you involved in that or was that like a higher
up than you decision from the Labor Party and you
were just told you're not going to attend that's a
job over well.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
I all of the people participating in the inquiry are
able to have legal representation, and Denton's is my lawyer.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Right, So did they make that decision with you individually
or as a group that no one was going to present,
no one was going to front.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Up the decisions. I stand by the decisions that I
have a good question.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Sorry, but that wasn't the question I've got to get
so I can find were you available to actually front
if you wanted to on your own rather than the
actual labor group.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
I take responsibility for the decisions that I have made
with respect to this. So I think you're trying to
get at some idea that I'm being led by my lawyers.
I have gone to the Commission answered their questions because
I think it's important.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Why will you not front up for the public hearing? Then?
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Well, I have participated in the commission along with the
on the same basis that ministers have participated in previous
Royal commissions, answering, answering all.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Can you get the objects of us? Can you get
that that New Zealand really wanted for you guys to
front up and just ask questions. It wasn't a witch hunt.
It was just we want to know how important do
you think it is to New Zealand and hiding from it,
which it is. I mean fronting for the written stuff
and going and behind closed doors is one thing, But
fronting is another thing. Now I think I think of
(03:53):
you as a fronter.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
And here I am with you now and taking these questions,
which you know we're.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Still in a closed room with a microphone, We're not
in an open forum.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Well tell me how that would make the questions. Well,
it shows that you're broadcasting this right now, and we
have answered questions from the press throughout the response and
for five years now in response to the results of
the first Royal Commission, the second Royal Commission from the
parliamentary opposition.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Joe and you both want to move on to this
to get into other stuff. So can I ask you
a straight up and down question. If you were making
the decision yourself whether you fronted or you didn't front
without being part of the Labor Party organization, would have
you fronted on your own?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Well, I was only a minister because I was part
of the Labor Party. However, I take responsibility for my decisions.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Nick, do you think the Royal Commission is a witch hunt?
Do you think that you people are trying to get
blood from a stone.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
I've participated in it in good faith, so they have
my full and Frank answers on the important questions about
the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Okay, I still want to get back to my initial question,
just for myself, for my own relationship with you, our
listener's relationship with you. If it was up to Aischeverril
whether she showed up, would you have turned up, take
all the other stuff away, the lawyers, the bs, everything away.
Would you have fronted?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Yeah? I take responsibility for the decisions I have made.
I have answered all of their questions.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Okay, was that a yes or no? Yeah, so you
would have.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Fronted No, I take responsibility for my decisions.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
That's not the question. The question was would you have
fronted to this second story?
Speaker 4 (05:37):
I will participate on the same way that all ministers
have participated with previous royal commissions, which you have done.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Can you give me one good reason why you weren't front.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Because I participated in the same way that all ministers,
like National Party Minister Jerry Brownlee, who also faced a
Royal commission after the christ Church earthquakes. That's what I've done.
They've got my full answers.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Tim.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Yes, I feel a little bit sorry for I. So
it feels like she'd really like to say that she
did want to front but she's not allowed. Now. I
don't know what decisions were made, but when you look
at the advice that Chris Hipkins is openly shared, it
says things like, well, we don't want the transcript of
the recordings to be used against us. But here she
is fronting up now and in her own words, what's
the difference? So why wouldn't we We talked about this what
(06:24):
in July on the show about the fact, and everyone
at the time was saying, yeah, that they should be
able to front up. They should come and front up.
I think Kiwi's deserve to hear from the leaders that
made those decisions. This is, in their own words, one
of the biggest events in one hundred years that has
hit this country. You know, even just to look at
the spending of it, sixty six billion in COVID spending,
(06:46):
but half of it didn't even go to COVID, It
went to inflation. We're living with the impact of that now.
I think it's understandable that kiwis want some answers.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, and the question that I get asked, you know,
since in the last twenty four hours from people in
the newsroom, you know, I said, you know, what would
she affronted, I said, yes, that's my assumption is that
you're a fronter.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Well, thank you, and I'll keep answering all the questions
you have, and Tim, if you've got a question for me,
now you can ask me. I've been asked questions about
COVID for the last five years, and I'll keep answering.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
The only two that would jump immediately to mind is
would you do things differently in the MiQ keeping so
many keiwis out keeping Auckland lockdown for so long? And
the second one I think people want to hear about
is you know sixty six billion in COVID spending half
of that the Treasure Independent Treasure reports is didn't go
to health initiatives, didn't go to COVID. It just got spent.
(07:39):
And we know, and maybe it's the benefit of hindsight.
Though people called it at the time, it caused significant
inflation seven point three percent. Just stand by those decisions.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
There were no decisions without cost during the COVID nineteen pandemic. Clearly,
the decisions that we made had consequences, but the other
options that we faced would have had very bad consequences
as well. On the matter of MiQ, which I was
more able to speak about than some of those financial ones.
(08:11):
I'd say that, yes, we accept the findings of the
First Royal Commission, and you know it'll be great if
those were implemented.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Can I jump in with one quick, quick question, when
you put your hair on the pillow at night and
think about it, because you're obviously an extremely smart woman,
do you think that you personally or your party personally
made any mistakes? And I don't want to know what
they are. I just want to know whether you thought,
you know I do that every night?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
I should have asha that, yeah, absolutely, And some of
them were canvassed in the report for the First Royal Commission.
And you've heard us except the findings the findings of that.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Will share Will you share with us mistake that you
think you may.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Well? Chris has already said, and I agree that that
time coming out of the Bakland lockdown was very very
hard on people, and striking that balance about when to
release controls so as not to cause more people to
(09:22):
die than we had was an incredibly difficult one. A
bit long well, Chris, Chris has said he thinks there's
a couple of weeks there I've looked back over it
in the course of replying to the Royal Commission and
I can't see information that we had at the time
(09:44):
that makes that difficult.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Different politics Thursday, with Labour's Health and Wellington's issues spokeswoman
Aieviril and National's o Taqi MP Tim Costley both in
the studio with us, which is lovely. Yesterday Chloe Swarbrick
was named and booted from the House for a week
for saying some government MPs need to grow a spine
(10:05):
and support her bill. Tim, how is this fair? When
John Key yelled get some guts and Jerry gave him
a standing ovation.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Uh, it's fair because the Speaker asked her to apologize
and she didn't. And and look, I have no doubt
that there is a lot of intentionality behind everything that
Chloe does. And she's seem pretty happy the first day.
In fact, she said I will happily leave. She was happy,
in her own words, to be kicked out. And then
she came back yesterday having been told you can come
(10:38):
back if you're coming back to apologize. She got given
the opportunity and she said no. She effectively gave She
gave the Speaker the mid reaction, Well, we can't run
a democratic parliament with people just going off and doing
their own thing.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
That there are a set of we have seen a
lot worse. Let's be fair. In your very little time
in parliament, you've seen what You've seen a haker and
pointing a gun at people. You've seen people green peas
going across and throwing stuff. Happened.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
No, no, we did the whole There were weeks where
the media we're talking about the fact that there was
a consequence for all of those things you've mentioned. In fact,
all the ones you mentioned went to the Privileges Committee,
which has not happened in this case. It hasn't got
to that level. But when the speaker stands up, everyone
sits down and is quiet. When the speaker tells someone
to leave or an associate assistant speaker, a debut speaker,
(11:27):
you leave and we have to follow the rules. Look, look,
this is in my view, I think it's just an
attempt to get some more media and publicity and it
will settle down when that disappears.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I shoot, Jerry overstepped the mark. He didn't he or
did he? What's your view?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
In our view, this was the punishment for close Warbrock
didn't fit the crime for the exact reasons that you've mentioned,
Nack that John Key did basically exactly the same thing and.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Got a standing ovation.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it is inconsistent. It is
over the top, and the real issue that she was
trying to draw a tention to is the issue of
the humanitarian crisis in Gaza that's been a really distressing
issue for all of us as New Zealanders to watch
(12:19):
on our television screens every night, and the government's failure
to take a stand on Palestinian statehood when a number
of other countries who are traditional partners on things France, England, Australia,
Canada have been able to take that stand. It is
an action that will help the Palestinians negotiate a better
(12:43):
outcome from the situation they're currently in, and the government
should do that.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
I'm sorry, I'm not going to take a moral lecture
from iha or from the Labor Party about moral courage
to do something when firstly, in twenty twenty one, Ihavel
sat in the House and voted no to recognizing Palestine
as a state, as did all of Labor, so it's
cute to say things when you're opposition, but it was
very different when she was part of the cabinet. Secondly,
(13:11):
they weren't even front for an inquiry and to the
actions of that government, and yet they're saying, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
After all, I think in fairness and fairness to me,
I did not call you the word that Chloe Swawbrook did.
I did not, and I didn't say it was right.
I also I said that the punishment for it was disproportionate,
so that that is what I said. But this is
a very real issue and other countries, like like the
(13:39):
Labor Party have changed their position. Why can't you Well what.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
You've seen from our government, from the Prime Minister and
the Minister of Foreign Affairs actually consistently for a number
of months is this is this move to work with
other countries to change positions. We have said that it's
a matter of if not when, But we have to
go through this because it's one thing to recognize the
Palestinian state. It's another thing to recognize or to come
out and support harmas who are Championship Australia coming out
(14:07):
saying isn't it great that Australia are supporting her Mass.
That's what they've been saying overnight. We cannot be supporting
a terrorist organization. So we have to be we have
to do and how we do this, and we have
to do this problem.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
No one suggesting that Australia, no credible person is suggesting
what Australia Kingdom are supporting.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Was that easy?
Speaker 5 (14:29):
You would have voted yes in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Well, what has happened is that there is an emerging
genocide in Palestine and one of the things we can
do to change that is to recognize that they are
a state now. It is one of the things.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Tim, can I just ask you one little quick question.
Has Israel lost the plot?
Speaker 5 (14:49):
Look, just as I would separate Palestine from her Mass,
I think we need to separate that the longer term
concept of Israel from Nehan Yahoo. I don't support what
the Yahoo regime is doing in terms of that on
the border.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Whether you agree with your prime minister, has he lost
the plot?
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Well?
Speaker 5 (15:07):
The other words that the Prime minister chose to use, but.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
You don't want to use them, you don't agree with them.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Ah, No, it's just not just you either agree with
them or Look, I think what they're doing on the border.
Then that that humanity and christ is wrong. They need that.
The fighting they both sides.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Have they lost the plot. Well what your prime minister said,
they've lost the plot yet? Now who's lost the plot?
Do you agree or not?
Speaker 4 (15:29):
He wants to be foreign minister one day.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Look it's not the frame. Okay, all right, you know
Pam can say Pame is the boss man. He can,
he can language he wants to use.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I get there. Let's talk about polling. Let's go to polling.
We saw two poles this week, one from Curia which
showed Labor in front of National by two points, and
a one used poll which showed National just one point
ahead of Labor but also showed Luxelon's worst popularity in
two years. Tim, Tim, why are you guys struggling so much?
And why does no one like the prime minister?
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Well?
Speaker 5 (16:01):
I don't agree with that. To start with, Look, while
we struggling, I think every key we struggling. And it
comes back to your very first question. And we've talked
about the deep roots of inflation and cost of living
crisis that go back to all that extra spending in
twenty one, twenty two, twenty three. It is tough out there,
and we see that in the polls. About a third
of people say they'd support national about a third say
(16:22):
they'd support labor, about a third are really uncertain, and
I think we can understand where that uncertainty comes from.
But every week, more families are refixing their mortgage and
finding it's about three hundred dollars cheaper per fortnite. Every week,
more families are getting a little bit extra support with
their early childhood payments. Every week, more families are just
finding that progress. It takes a long time to fix
(16:47):
that deep cost of living challenge that we found, but
we are making progress even today, Q we bank of
load mortgages again. More and more families are refixing it,
and every week we'll see progress. But it takes time,
and I'm confident that by the election you'll see that
reflected in the polls.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Oh should do you think that the polls might slip
this couple more coming out in the next couple of
weeks or something like here? So do you reckon polls
might react to a your powerful for not fronting b
Your education spokesperson been open having open invitation and dialogue
with with Erek Stamford and not replying, not even having
the nicety to send an emojo back. Do you reckon
(17:23):
that it might affect you your ratings?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
What I see in the polls, both the published ones
and the research we get as a party, is that
the big issues won't be a surprise to you are
the economy, cost of living, and concerns about the health
care system and access to healthcare slipping away. So I
can tell you from the other side of it, as
(17:47):
an opposition party, getting issues to get attention when people
are so worried about the cost of living is tough.
So I'm not sure if those particular events this week
will impeake the polls.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Can I be a bit cheeky and ask, we ask
you when we're going to start seeing some policies on taxation,
because I mean, I know there's been a lot of
talk for a lot of months, almost years about your
new taxation. When are we going to start getting something
from labored?
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Or we talked about this a couple of weeks ago,
didn't we? And I said, has already been said that
that will be released released this year and you'll see
that labor will start to roll out a credible plan
for addressing the challenges New Zealand's are feeling with the
cost of living, access to the health system which is
getting worse, not better. Housing affordability which in particularly homelessness,
(18:37):
which is getting worse, not better.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
But surely you can roll out taxing the family home.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Well, I'm not here to announce our policy. That will
happen in due course, and thank you for that mischievous
contribution to the debate.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Well, but this is my fundamental point, right Kiwis are
finding it tough out there. We're really clear about what
we're doing to try and tackle that cost of living challenges.
Are letting people, well, it's letting people take home more
of the money they you in the tax cuts that
you voted against. It's target inflation, you know, starting with
the changes to Reserve Bank, which you're voted against. It's
(19:12):
so that mortgage rates come down, costs come down, rents
have come down for the first time in fifteen years.
That's a good sign. Early childhood payments, which you voted against.
There are lots of things happening, but at least the
opposition has one job, which is a to answer questions
about the past, which I would argue got us to
this point COVID spending through twenty one to twenty three.
They're not willing to answer those questions in a public forum. Secondly,
(19:34):
at least tell us what you do differently. But all
that we see is voting against things that made a
tangible difference to Keiwi incomes having more money in your
pocket at the end of the week, and we should
be supported.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Under if the people listening at home are feeling that difference.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Tip and the problem that I've got with that comment
is rates out of control, insurance out of control. The
little bits of money that you're giving us absolutely doesn't
even cover you know, I.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
I three hundred dollars extra a fortnite on the average mortgage.
That is a significant amount of money across the year.
Rates are out of control, which is why we've been
very vocal and criticized by Labor for it about councils
needed to rain in their spending and be more responsible
about we need to, you know, considering things like rate
caps and how much they can increase.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Can I tell you that my next door neighbor a
couple of weeks ago told me that their pension went
up three dollars eighty a week. Yeh, three dollars eighty
a week, and his insurance bill went up two and
a half grand and his rates went up four grand.
Six grand is two dollars.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
And that's cool. Inflation and what causes inflation? Wasteful spending?
And when do we see that? Let's have a look
at that COVID inquiry.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Okay, thank you both. I appreciate you both coming in.
It's great to have you in the studio and hopefully
there won't be too much of an argument in the
lift on the way out.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Thanks Nick.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
See Lad, Tim Costley and Aishaverral joining us.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news talks There'd be Wellington from nine am week days,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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