It was a fiery day in Parliament yesterday, with Workplace Relations minister Brooke van Velden quoting a controversial opinion piece and dropping the c-word in Parliament. Was this acceptable?
Also, the Greens have released their alternative budget, promising $88 billion in new taxes. Is this lunacy or realistic?
To answer those questions, Transport minister and Hutt South MP Chris Bishop and Labour's health and Wellington issues spokeswoman Ayesha Verrall joined Nick Mills for Politics Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings news Talk said bheus.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Past eleven joining us for politics Thursday. This week is
Transport Minister and Minister of Everything up South MP Chris Bishop.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Chris, I don't know about Minister for everything, Minister of something.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
You're a minister. I mean I read it out the
other day. I've got it on my actual other desk
of all the things that you know, you got more
ministries and I've had hot dinners.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Well we're a busy government.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, but can you control everything? Can you look after everything?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I'll do my best.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Time will tell you're a young parent as well.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I am, yes, indeed yes, Oh gosh, I.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hope you're okay. And Labour's health and Wellington's issues Wellington, gosh,
we've got a few issues, don't we. Wellington Issues spokesperson Cheveril,
how you doing very well?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Can you start sorting out a few of our issues please? Ah, well,
we've got a few.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I will need to be back in government to do that.
But always happy to be hearing from Wellingtonian's about the
issues that matter to them.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
We could end up with a labor mayor in Wellington,
so you know.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I think I don't think that's it. I don't think
that's an election, Chris to you somebody else, I think
it's a coronation.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I was about to say, it feels like a bit
of a coronation. We'll see, we'll see. There's there's there's
a there's a fight on, is it, well, there's you
know you've got Ray and Andrew and obviously Tori is
about out, so you know, but it'll be good to
have some adults in chudge.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, I'll be I saw Andrew last night and I
can tell you he is not taking anything for granted
and is reminding everyone of his supporters about the work
to be done in the next five months.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yes, I met with him the other day as well,
just to ask him a few things. Fish. Do you
like them? Do you think he'd be good mere for Wellington?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
I think Wellington needs an adult on the room and
they need adult and grown ups on the council. We've
got some big issues here, water, housing, infrastructure, congestion, getting
a bit of life back into the place as well.
Which I think I'll suspect you to agree with Nick
and so look, I think the council needs a maturity
that has not been demonstrated in the last three years.
(02:18):
And the reality is andrews from a different party to me, obviously,
but he's a experienced minister, he's been a senior MP,
he's been a political party leader. You know, he he
will if he does win, and it will be a battle. Obviously,
it won't be a coronation. There's a there's a strong
challenge coming as well. But if he does win, you know,
(02:40):
I look forward to working with him.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
You did say there's a strong challenge coming. Do you
know something that we don't know?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Oh? I just mean you know, I've got Ray Chung's
obviously declared, and there's there's a few other names floating around.
So that's healthy. You want a democracy, right and we
need a debate about the issues facing Wellington, and I'm
sure Andrew will be engaging in that debate. But if
he does, when and I would say he's the favorite,
you know, then you know, I look forward to working
with them.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I wonder why I've got bot.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Challenges in my portfolios, So I look forward to working
with them.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Right, And I wonder why that this is that we've
got an adult in the room. Thing keeps coming back
because it's every I mean, that's not your unique to you,
it's kind of like both everyone sort of seeming to
be using that terminology. And the one question that I
do have over is the word excitement, which you had
a little bit of a ting job. Wellington's always been
and walk around over the last couple of days with
(03:29):
what's going on, you know, the Victoria University stuff that's
going on at the moment, it's just been amazing. The
city feels like it's alive again. You guys would have
seen it and felt it, don't you.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Yeah, it is, and I think Andrew's someone who's lived
in the city for a long time and definitely loves it.
The other thing I'd say, coming back to Chris's points,
which frankly, I find really heartening to hear a member
of another party and government being ready to work with
a labor mayor if he's elected. Working with Andrew, I
(04:03):
just see he is an excellent listener and also able
to manage conflict, and I think that means that he's
able to hear out all the different views around the
council council table. I think he'll do really well at that, Okay, put.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
It that way. Put this way, I don't think we're
going to have him coming on a show and talking
about everything other than the issues facing Wellington, which is
what seems to have happened over the last two years.
And I say that, I don't mean to be mean
about Tory, but every time she came on your show,
we ended up with debates about everything other than the
issues actually facing Wellington, and that's not good for the city,
(04:38):
and so we need to focus on the issues.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
You look at me, would you say that, No, People.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Make their own people make their own decisions about what
they say.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, hopefully he'll come back on the show and we'll
be able to know what's going on at least very least.
Let's get to your own set of problems and your
own set of issues. So let's go to the pe hive.
Leave well it'son alone for a second. I want to
start on political stuff. About talking about what happened at
question time yesterday. It was very lively with the Government
arguing that with the Speaker and then the Workplace Relations
(05:09):
Minister brook Van Velden, quoting an opinion piece by saying
the sea word, I mean in the house now shall
I want to start with you? But why the how
wild on Earth did Labor bring this upos the opinion
piece knowing what's going to happen.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Women are reacting to their very strong feelings about the
changes the government's made to pay equity, and they're doing
that in a variety of ways. Jan asked a question
of Brook van Velden. She chose she did not use
the sea word in the question that she asked, and
(05:45):
Brook chose to make her answer in any case, the
big issue here is that over one hundred and eighty
thousand women no longer have an avenue, have had their
pay equity cut claim suspended, and I think that's the
big issue that our Parliament needs to be able to
(06:05):
focus on.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Chris Well, We've been very disappointed at the reaction to
Andrew of Varts's opinion piece on the Weekend two years ago.
Chris Hipkins said that we all had an obligation to
speak up against gendered abuse against women in the media.
He made a big play about that. We agree with him.
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept
(06:28):
he has been unwilling to condemn that article and the
use of the sea word against senior women on the
right Nikola Willison brook And my challenge to aisher today
would be will you condemn it? Because Chris Hipkins won't.
And it's been very disappointing to see alleged progressive feminists
on the left line up behind Chris Hipkins and refuse
to condemn a deeply misogynistic article and gendered abuse. So
(06:51):
my question to eisers will you condemn that article by
Andrew of Arts And.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Is this new found feminism for you, Chris? Or were
you stepping up to defend Jacinda when there were people
on the fore court of Parliament threatening with misogynistic and
gendered language with a nurse to kill her.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
And you'll find me online on Twitter saying that we
need to stop calling to Cinda Cindy. You'll find me
tweeting about that that's wrong, that's not her name. You'll
find many tweets from me saying her name is to Sinda,
I do and she should be called that. So you
will find me defending that. I consider myself a progressive
feminist and I might be on the right wing party
but feminism can cross party lines and it's time for
(07:31):
the left to practice what they preach and stick by
their values.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Yeah. Look, I haven't seen I haven't seen the right
consistently stand up against misogyny in politics. However, I don't
believe that that word was appropriate in Parliament today. I
do want us yesterday, I do want us to move
past it.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Can I just ask you whether you I mean, it's
a very good question and one I should have asked,
and I would have asked, will you condemn it? Well?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
I wouldn't have used that word in parliament and I
wouldn't have written that article either.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
No, But would you condemn it?
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Well, I won't do it, Okay, Not, it's not It's
not for us to it's not for us to police
journalists and what they what they say. I have many
disagreements with what gets gets written, but you know I
wouldn't do it that way.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Chris, Is it ever okay? And this is stage planned?
I reckon this whole thing was stage plan and it's worked.
We're talking about it a day later. It's Is it
ever okay to use a sea word in the House?
Speaker 3 (08:30):
No, it's not parliamentary language for starters, and it's an
offensive term, and it's been it's been odd to see
some people online saying things like, oh, you know the
term's been reclaimed that you know it can actually be vernacular.
It's friendly now, I mean, I'm sorry. Like the C word,
which I will not repeat on here, it's a family
(08:52):
showing thank you. It is a gendered term of abuse.
It's just no doubt about that. And it is the
most offensive word in the English language.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Is it any worse than calling me my name with
a D in front of it?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I think it is word. Yes, there's actually been polls
on this as to what is the most offensive word,
and that rig that is the top. The C word
is the top of the most offensive words in the
English name.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I think there's one with an end that comes before it, but.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
That's possibly true now to say it's top two.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
None of them we're debating there to None.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Of these words are helpful to what Parliament is for,
which is to debate the issues of the day.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Do you think that Andrea's Colin Mosman's mistigynistic, moscigynistic, mosigistic.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Misogynistic, mystics.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Not even a word I can say.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Look, as I said, I wouldn't have written it that way.
It was a very potent column written about an issue
which really goes to the sense that women have of
justice in this country. You know, imagine working hard for
your family every day and knowing that you take home
less than other people who do something.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I'm concerned that you we're sort of tiptoeing around the
question a little bit.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Yeah, it's not for me to police what the press
right in New Zealand. But as I said, I wouldn't
have written it that way.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Okay, christ this whole pay equity thing is really blowing
up in the government's face. I mean, I don't know whether.
I mean, you're in the inner sanctum and you would
have known, you know, in advance this was all going
to happen. Is this blowing up a hell of a
lot bigger and been a lot more prevalent than you
you even thought beforehand.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
We knew it would be a controversial issue in a
tough fight. But we have done the right thing. Ultimately,
we are not cutting women's pay. We are not eradicating
the concept of pay equity. In fact, it is in law.
We are resetting the tests that are used for pay
claim so pay claims can still proceed. In fact, we've
set aside more money for pay claims in the budget.
(10:55):
Equal pay is important. I will always defend that. Likewise,
pay equity I think is important. Genuine sex based discrimination
through the labor market should be remedied, and it was
the National Government in twenty seventeen that did the Care
and Support Workers Settlement. That was an important thing to do.
It gave a pay rise to thousands of underpaid, largely women,
who have been discriminated against the labor market for generations.
(11:18):
But where we got to where engineers were being compared
to fisheries offices and librarians, wholly disparate job professions, we
considered that went too.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Far, and it did go too far.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
I should didn't, Chris, It's not correct to say that
to gloss over the fact that you have stopped thirty
three claims, some of them have been worked on for
two or three years. There is a huge amount of
effort that's gone into that. In some cases those workforces
will not be able to bring claims. Secondary school teachers
(11:53):
will no longer be able to bring claims because you've
changed how the proportion of women that need to be
in a workforce in order to bring a claim. You've
also set it up so that you can no longer
can pare outside your profession. I just want to expand
on that because it's important. In the health sector, almost
every role is female dominated. So if you say a
(12:17):
health workforce can only compare themselves to other health workforces,
that's a huge part of our workforce that loses the
ability to make equal pay claim pay equity claims.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Chris.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
What I would say is we have reset the legal
tests and we have reset those claims, so those claims
will proceed, will may proceed, but there will be under
a new law which is far more workable and affordable.
So I don't agree with your characterization that those thirty
three claims have been stopped and are able to proceed.
(12:51):
They can proceed, Chris, I don't understand.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
That's what the law we just debated for two days says.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It resets the law resets the legal tests. That means
that those claims can go forward. But no, no, they
may proceed under a new revised change test and legal
legal tests. And then after that there's a legal process
to go through in this bargaining and these things take
a while, and that's one of them.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
You are you making a difference here about the point
that they have to go, But they have to go
back to square one. Some of them won't even make
the test well. And then the playing field has been
vastly changed.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
But the playing field has been changed. It's the purpose
of the law that is definitely true. And we've done
that deliberately to make it more workable, make it more affordable,
make it more sensible, and actually make it easier to access.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
And they have it with affordability. That's why women are
going to miss out on claims that they otherwise would
have been able to win for greater.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Pay, may have been able to win, may have been able.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
To So can I ask you if females pay today
have dropped, I beg your pardon ex to have females
wages because of this bill changed today. No, so I
mean we haven't that. No one's lost anything right now,
I mean they've lost lost it. Have been claiming that
(14:08):
they've lost something and they haven't lost anything.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Oh look, if the if billions are coming out of
the budget in order to because of the law change
the government's made, then women have less opportunity for the
potential future wages.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Potentially, it's less it's a cut. You really believe that,
yes to do? Okay, I mean I understand the potential
of it. I get that. I get that that they've
been lining up for ages to have their case and
it's not going to be heard and not going to
get a pay rise. I get that, But right now
nothing changes.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Are tax cuts when they're debated in parliament? Are they cuts?
Are they increases to people's pay? Well, the government says that,
so passing this bill, it's also a cut.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Okay. Politics Thursday with Chris Bishop and Aisha Viral. Well,
let's talk. Let's talk the Greens budget. The Greens have
given us their alternative budget, and really the big story
is eighty eight billion dollars worth of new taxes, wealth tax,
debt tax, capital gains tax, tax tax. I should My
(15:16):
concern with this is is this your main coalition partner.
I mean, we're eighteen months away from an election and
your coalition partner is bringing these ideas out that not
a lot of us would understand.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
It looks it's good that the Greens have ideas. There
are certainly some policies that we share similar aspirations on
like child poverty reduction and climate change. But that is
not how I'd expect to labor budget to lock at all.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And that's that really, Chris, you're sniggering. Can I use
that word sniggering? I mean your finance. But it's accord
to the circus.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I'm smiling because these guys live in fiscal fantasy land.
I mean, it's just unbelievable. I mean, at forty four
billion barks an additional debt, I mean, as if the
one hundred and twenty we borrowed in the last five
years wasn't enough, they want to take it to fifty
percent of GDP. That would be dangerous. Eighty eight bill.
Wealth tax, trust tax, inheritance tax, acc company tax, mining taxes,
bringing back the tenant taxes. I mean seriously, like, as
(16:22):
there are a tax they don't want to raise or introduce.
It's it's crazy stuff. Eighty eight bill. And here's my thing,
at this time of economic volatility, particularly internationally but also
in New Zealand we're just coming out of recession, that
the single worst thing you could do in the Zeland
economy would slap eighty eight billion bucks with extra taxes,
and the reality is Labor cannot govern without the Greens,
(16:45):
so this is essential and Labor doesn't have a tax
plan at the moment, so this is essentially the opposition
agenda for government. It's this. It would be a wrecking
ball through the New Zealand economy.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, real, there's no I mean, I see. You can't
defend this. You cannot defend this is your main coalition partner,
one of your main coalitionship.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Nor is Chris going to defend all of as extreme
policies either.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
But we can live with that. Could we live with
the Green Could we live seriously with Tamotha Paul being
the police minister?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Excuse me, we cannot live with some of that's proposals.
I think you saw the country pushed to the brink
by the Treaty Principal's Bill in terms of the impact
that Nationals coalition partner had on the very fabrick of
our society. It is the job of big parties to
come up with fiscally responsible policy proposals and Labor will
(17:38):
do that. And the Greens can make announcements addressed to
sand Claus as much as they like. They are not ours.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Do you accept the Green's plans fiscally irresponsible.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Look, yes I suppose I do, and it's certainly not
Labour's policy.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Well, the reality is you're going to if by some
miracle you get into a position, you're going to have
to take some of it on. And I just it's
just unbelievable and this would be a wrecking boar. We'll
wearing up with that now and people can see that
Actually we've made it work and we're a responsible party
and we're a responsible government because National is there in
the driving seat, driving through a fiscally responsible set of
(18:17):
policies that will get the country back on track.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Your coalition partners have made you run a divisive treaty principles.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Well through all that that's over and done.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
With it on is deep, just upset and hurt as
a result of that. They made you give tax breaks
to tobacco companies. None of this. I don't believe you
want to do any of it, but your coalition partners
made you.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, well as well, you're making the point for me,
which is that coalition is about compromise, and if you
govern with the Greens, you will have to compromise on
all of their insane policies that will drive a wrecking
ball through the economy. So the messages. If you want
a strong government focused on economic growth and the issues
that actually matter, party vote National. If you want a
fiscally insane policy that drives a wrecking ball through the economy,
(19:05):
then you can vote for the parties of the left.
And let's not forget about to party Maury, throw them
into the mix as well. If you want Tamoth of
paul A's police minister who wants to basically abolish the
prisons and defund the police, and if you want Chloe
Swarbrockers Minister of Finance, driving this insane agenda, then you
know you can vote for the left. I know which
well side I choose.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Well, I think that I think Chloe would be a
far push to be finance minister. Anyway, Let's move on
to try to hate using that word anyway. Let's move
on to our own budget that's coming out next to
New Zealand's budget that comes out next week. Nichola Willis,
Oh my gosh, I'm getting excited about it. What can
we expect, Chris, come on, drop us, I mean, you're
(19:45):
not going to tell us you're going to.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
I'm excited about it as well. Look, it'll be a
good budget and it's been a tough budget to put
together because we inherited a mess as you know, and.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Mystery come on mess.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Now you can expect fiscool restraint, which is important, and
you can expect some pro business moves to get growth
back to the economy.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Will it be pro small business or will it be
pro multi national?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Book both both, it'll be both. But the New Zealand
as an economy of small businesses, so when you talk
about you know we're pro business. Ninety five percent of
our businesses are twenty twenty employees and under.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So if there is a criticism of your government right now,
it is that you're not looking after small business and
you're looking straight at one. So you know that's probably
a criticism. Is there going to be anything in the
budget to help small business?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Well that I think the best thing we can do
for small business is get spending under control so interest
rates can come down. Because when interest rates come down,
our households have got more money in their back pocket.
You talk about retail and hospitalities, which you know, well, Nick,
that puts more money in people's back pockets. They can
go out and spend more, go out for a Friday
meal when they otherwise wouldn't have been able to do so,
for example, get a takeaway when they wouldn't have been
able to do it, Go for a drink. You know,
(20:55):
all of those things make a difference. That's about taking
and pay.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Is it going to be Is there going to be difference?
We'll see, We'll hear the budget and we'll say, oh,
that's going to make a difference or is there going
to be another hold on to twenty six.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I think you'll see a difference in the budget. And
it's a good budget for New Zealand's future, but it's look,
it's a medium to long term game of resurrecting this
economy and getting some life back into the joint. So
it's a good budget on the step in the right direction.
But we need another budget after that, and another good
budget after that.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I am going to come back to I don't want
to get icera and I want to come back about
with ier. What are you hearing? I mean, you're in
the beehive. The rumors, the rumor mill will be surrounding.
What are you hearing? What is going to be the
big thing in the budget that you are.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Hearing well, we already know that many of the choices
the government's made is to put their priorities ahead of
the wages of many low paid women in New Zealand.
What I hear regularly from the community is on people
missing out on healthcare, people waiting too long for a
(21:52):
general practitioner, people not being able to get seen by specialists.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And to be fair, that's not changed since your day.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
When you actually actually it has the delays and wish
list appointments have got worse under it.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
They couldn't have got worse.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Yes, they have the numbers bear it out, Nick. They
have got worse, and that is because the government now
has Health New Zealand facing a seven hundred million if
I recall correctly deficit, and then unless they increase the
amount into the health system above what they planned, it'll
still the health system will continue to go back backwards.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I've got a break, but Chris, I want to yes
or no? Is there going to be changes to key
we save it?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
We have to wait for the budget.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Chris Bishop and Eisavira, thank you very much for taking
time out of your very busy schedules.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Thanks mate, and joining us on the show.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
We'll have to wait till next week to find out
whether our key we savers get effected. I think that
almost tells us something's changing, doesn't it. I don't know.
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, maybe I'm reading into it.
Thank you both very much.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am we days,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings news Talk said bheus.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Past eleven joining us for politics Thursday. This week is
Transport Minister and Minister of Everything up South MP Chris Bishop.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Chris, I don't know about Minister for everything, Minister of something.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
You're a minister. I mean I read it out the
other day. I've got it on my actual other desk
of all the things that you know, you got more
ministries and I've had hot dinners.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Well we're a busy government.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, but can you control everything? Can you look after everything?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I'll do my best.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Time will tell you're a young parent as well.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I am, yes, indeed yes, Oh gosh, I.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hope you're okay. And Labour's health and Wellington's issues Wellington, gosh,
we've got a few issues, don't we. Wellington Issues spokesperson Cheveril,
how you doing very well?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Can you start sorting out a few of our issues please? Ah, well,
we've got a few.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I will need to be back in government to do that.
But always happy to be hearing from Wellingtonian's about the
issues that matter to them.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
We could end up with a labor mayor in Wellington,
so you know.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I think I don't think that's it. I don't think
that's an election, Chris to you somebody else, I think
it's a coronation.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I was about to say, it feels like a bit
of a coronation. We'll see, we'll see. There's there's there's
a there's a fight on, is it, well, there's you
know you've got Ray and Andrew and obviously Tori is
about out, so you know, but it'll be good to
have some adults in chudge.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, I'll be I saw Andrew last night and I
can tell you he is not taking anything for granted
and is reminding everyone of his supporters about the work
to be done in the next five months.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yes, I met with him the other day as well,
just to ask him a few things. Fish. Do you
like them? Do you think he'd be good mere for Wellington?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
I think Wellington needs an adult on the room and
they need adult and grown ups on the council. We've
got some big issues here, water, housing, infrastructure, congestion, getting
a bit of life back into the place as well.
Which I think I'll suspect you to agree with Nick
and so look, I think the council needs a maturity
that has not been demonstrated in the last three years.
(02:18):
And the reality is andrews from a different party to me, obviously,
but he's a experienced minister, he's been a senior MP,
he's been a political party leader. You know, he he
will if he does win, and it will be a battle. Obviously,
it won't be a coronation. There's a there's a strong
challenge coming as well. But if he does win, you know,
(02:40):
I look forward to working with him.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
You did say there's a strong challenge coming. Do you
know something that we don't know?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Oh? I just mean you know, I've got Ray Chung's
obviously declared, and there's there's a few other names floating around.
So that's healthy. You want a democracy, right and we
need a debate about the issues facing Wellington, and I'm
sure Andrew will be engaging in that debate. But if
he does, when and I would say he's the favorite,
you know, then you know, I look forward to working
with them.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I wonder why I've got bot.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Challenges in my portfolios, So I look forward to working
with them.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Right, And I wonder why that this is that we've
got an adult in the room. Thing keeps coming back
because it's every I mean, that's not your unique to you,
it's kind of like both everyone sort of seeming to
be using that terminology. And the one question that I
do have over is the word excitement, which you had
a little bit of a ting job. Wellington's always been
and walk around over the last couple of days with
(03:29):
what's going on, you know, the Victoria University stuff that's
going on at the moment, it's just been amazing. The
city feels like it's alive again. You guys would have
seen it and felt it, don't you.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Yeah, it is, and I think Andrew's someone who's lived
in the city for a long time and definitely loves it.
The other thing I'd say, coming back to Chris's points,
which frankly, I find really heartening to hear a member
of another party and government being ready to work with
a labor mayor if he's elected. Working with Andrew, I
(04:03):
just see he is an excellent listener and also able
to manage conflict, and I think that means that he's
able to hear out all the different views around the
council council table. I think he'll do really well at that, Okay, put.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
It that way. Put this way, I don't think we're
going to have him coming on a show and talking
about everything other than the issues facing Wellington, which is
what seems to have happened over the last two years.
And I say that, I don't mean to be mean
about Tory, but every time she came on your show,
we ended up with debates about everything other than the
issues actually facing Wellington, and that's not good for the city,
(04:38):
and so we need to focus on the issues.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
You look at me, would you say that, No, People.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Make their own people make their own decisions about what
they say.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, hopefully he'll come back on the show and we'll
be able to know what's going on at least very least.
Let's get to your own set of problems and your
own set of issues. So let's go to the pe hive.
Leave well it'son alone for a second. I want to
start on political stuff. About talking about what happened at
question time yesterday. It was very lively with the Government
arguing that with the Speaker and then the Workplace Relations
(05:09):
Minister brook Van Velden, quoting an opinion piece by saying
the sea word, I mean in the house now shall
I want to start with you? But why the how
wild on Earth did Labor bring this upos the opinion
piece knowing what's going to happen.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Women are reacting to their very strong feelings about the
changes the government's made to pay equity, and they're doing
that in a variety of ways. Jan asked a question
of Brook van Velden. She chose she did not use
the sea word in the question that she asked, and
(05:45):
Brook chose to make her answer in any case, the
big issue here is that over one hundred and eighty
thousand women no longer have an avenue, have had their
pay equity cut claim suspended, and I think that's the
big issue that our Parliament needs to be able to
(06:05):
focus on.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Chris Well, We've been very disappointed at the reaction to
Andrew of Varts's opinion piece on the Weekend two years ago.
Chris Hipkins said that we all had an obligation to
speak up against gendered abuse against women in the media.
He made a big play about that. We agree with him.
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept
(06:28):
he has been unwilling to condemn that article and the
use of the sea word against senior women on the
right Nikola Willison brook And my challenge to aisher today
would be will you condemn it? Because Chris Hipkins won't.
And it's been very disappointing to see alleged progressive feminists
on the left line up behind Chris Hipkins and refuse
to condemn a deeply misogynistic article and gendered abuse. So
(06:51):
my question to eisers will you condemn that article by
Andrew of Arts And.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Is this new found feminism for you, Chris? Or were
you stepping up to defend Jacinda when there were people
on the fore court of Parliament threatening with misogynistic and
gendered language with a nurse to kill her.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
And you'll find me online on Twitter saying that we
need to stop calling to Cinda Cindy. You'll find me
tweeting about that that's wrong, that's not her name. You'll
find many tweets from me saying her name is to Sinda,
I do and she should be called that. So you
will find me defending that. I consider myself a progressive
feminist and I might be on the right wing party
but feminism can cross party lines and it's time for
(07:31):
the left to practice what they preach and stick by
their values.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Yeah. Look, I haven't seen I haven't seen the right
consistently stand up against misogyny in politics. However, I don't
believe that that word was appropriate in Parliament today. I
do want us yesterday, I do want us to move
past it.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Can I just ask you whether you I mean, it's
a very good question and one I should have asked,
and I would have asked, will you condemn it? Well?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
I wouldn't have used that word in parliament and I
wouldn't have written that article either.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
No, But would you condemn it?
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Well, I won't do it, Okay, Not, it's not It's
not for us to it's not for us to police
journalists and what they what they say. I have many
disagreements with what gets gets written, but you know I
wouldn't do it that way.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Chris, Is it ever okay? And this is stage planned?
I reckon this whole thing was stage plan and it's worked.
We're talking about it a day later. It's Is it
ever okay to use a sea word in the House?
Speaker 3 (08:30):
No, it's not parliamentary language for starters, and it's an
offensive term, and it's been it's been odd to see
some people online saying things like, oh, you know the
term's been reclaimed that you know it can actually be vernacular.
It's friendly now, I mean, I'm sorry. Like the C word,
which I will not repeat on here, it's a family
(08:52):
showing thank you. It is a gendered term of abuse.
It's just no doubt about that. And it is the
most offensive word in the English language.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Is it any worse than calling me my name with
a D in front of it?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I think it is word. Yes, there's actually been polls
on this as to what is the most offensive word,
and that rig that is the top. The C word
is the top of the most offensive words in the
English name.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I think there's one with an end that comes before it, but.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
That's possibly true now to say it's top two.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
None of them we're debating there to None.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Of these words are helpful to what Parliament is for,
which is to debate the issues of the day.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Do you think that Andrea's Colin Mosman's mistigynistic, moscigynistic, mosigistic.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Misogynistic, mystics.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Not even a word I can say.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Look, as I said, I wouldn't have written it that way.
It was a very potent column written about an issue
which really goes to the sense that women have of
justice in this country. You know, imagine working hard for
your family every day and knowing that you take home
less than other people who do something.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I'm concerned that you we're sort of tiptoeing around the
question a little bit.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Yeah, it's not for me to police what the press
right in New Zealand. But as I said, I wouldn't
have written it that way.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Okay, christ this whole pay equity thing is really blowing
up in the government's face. I mean, I don't know whether.
I mean, you're in the inner sanctum and you would
have known, you know, in advance this was all going
to happen. Is this blowing up a hell of a
lot bigger and been a lot more prevalent than you
you even thought beforehand.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
We knew it would be a controversial issue in a
tough fight. But we have done the right thing. Ultimately,
we are not cutting women's pay. We are not eradicating
the concept of pay equity. In fact, it is in law.
We are resetting the tests that are used for pay
claim so pay claims can still proceed. In fact, we've
set aside more money for pay claims in the budget.
(10:55):
Equal pay is important. I will always defend that. Likewise,
pay equity I think is important. Genuine sex based discrimination
through the labor market should be remedied, and it was
the National Government in twenty seventeen that did the Care
and Support Workers Settlement. That was an important thing to do.
It gave a pay rise to thousands of underpaid, largely women,
who have been discriminated against the labor market for generations.
(11:18):
But where we got to where engineers were being compared
to fisheries offices and librarians, wholly disparate job professions, we
considered that went too.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Far, and it did go too far.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
I should didn't, Chris, It's not correct to say that
to gloss over the fact that you have stopped thirty
three claims, some of them have been worked on for
two or three years. There is a huge amount of
effort that's gone into that. In some cases those workforces
will not be able to bring claims. Secondary school teachers
(11:53):
will no longer be able to bring claims because you've
changed how the proportion of women that need to be
in a workforce in order to bring a claim. You've
also set it up so that you can no longer
can pare outside your profession. I just want to expand
on that because it's important. In the health sector, almost
every role is female dominated. So if you say a
(12:17):
health workforce can only compare themselves to other health workforces,
that's a huge part of our workforce that loses the
ability to make equal pay claim pay equity claims.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Chris.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
What I would say is we have reset the legal
tests and we have reset those claims, so those claims
will proceed, will may proceed, but there will be under
a new law which is far more workable and affordable.
So I don't agree with your characterization that those thirty
three claims have been stopped and are able to proceed.
(12:51):
They can proceed, Chris, I don't understand.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
That's what the law we just debated for two days says.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It resets the law resets the legal tests. That means
that those claims can go forward. But no, no, they
may proceed under a new revised change test and legal
legal tests. And then after that there's a legal process
to go through in this bargaining and these things take
a while, and that's one of them.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
You are you making a difference here about the point
that they have to go, But they have to go
back to square one. Some of them won't even make
the test well. And then the playing field has been
vastly changed.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
But the playing field has been changed. It's the purpose
of the law that is definitely true. And we've done
that deliberately to make it more workable, make it more affordable,
make it more sensible, and actually make it easier to access.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
And they have it with affordability. That's why women are
going to miss out on claims that they otherwise would
have been able to win for greater.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Pay, may have been able to win, may have been able.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
To So can I ask you if females pay today
have dropped, I beg your pardon ex to have females
wages because of this bill changed today. No, so I
mean we haven't that. No one's lost anything right now,
I mean they've lost lost it. Have been claiming that
(14:08):
they've lost something and they haven't lost anything.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Oh look, if the if billions are coming out of
the budget in order to because of the law change
the government's made, then women have less opportunity for the
potential future wages.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Potentially, it's less it's a cut. You really believe that,
yes to do? Okay, I mean I understand the potential
of it. I get that. I get that that they've
been lining up for ages to have their case and
it's not going to be heard and not going to
get a pay rise. I get that, But right now
nothing changes.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Are tax cuts when they're debated in parliament? Are they cuts?
Are they increases to people's pay? Well, the government says that,
so passing this bill, it's also a cut.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Okay. Politics Thursday with Chris Bishop and Aisha Viral. Well,
let's talk. Let's talk the Greens budget. The Greens have
given us their alternative budget, and really the big story
is eighty eight billion dollars worth of new taxes, wealth tax,
debt tax, capital gains tax, tax tax. I should My
(15:16):
concern with this is is this your main coalition partner.
I mean, we're eighteen months away from an election and
your coalition partner is bringing these ideas out that not
a lot of us would understand.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
It looks it's good that the Greens have ideas. There
are certainly some policies that we share similar aspirations on
like child poverty reduction and climate change. But that is
not how I'd expect to labor budget to lock at all.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And that's that really, Chris, you're sniggering. Can I use
that word sniggering? I mean your finance. But it's accord
to the circus.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I'm smiling because these guys live in fiscal fantasy land.
I mean, it's just unbelievable. I mean, at forty four
billion barks an additional debt, I mean, as if the
one hundred and twenty we borrowed in the last five
years wasn't enough, they want to take it to fifty
percent of GDP. That would be dangerous. Eighty eight bill.
Wealth tax, trust tax, inheritance tax, acc company tax, mining taxes,
bringing back the tenant taxes. I mean seriously, like, as
(16:22):
there are a tax they don't want to raise or introduce.
It's it's crazy stuff. Eighty eight bill. And here's my thing,
at this time of economic volatility, particularly internationally but also
in New Zealand we're just coming out of recession, that
the single worst thing you could do in the Zeland
economy would slap eighty eight billion bucks with extra taxes,
and the reality is Labor cannot govern without the Greens,
(16:45):
so this is essential and Labor doesn't have a tax
plan at the moment, so this is essentially the opposition
agenda for government. It's this. It would be a wrecking
ball through the New Zealand economy.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, real, there's no I mean, I see. You can't
defend this. You cannot defend this is your main coalition partner,
one of your main coalitionship.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Nor is Chris going to defend all of as extreme
policies either.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
But we can live with that. Could we live with
the Green Could we live seriously with Tamotha Paul being
the police minister?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Excuse me, we cannot live with some of that's proposals.
I think you saw the country pushed to the brink
by the Treaty Principal's Bill in terms of the impact
that Nationals coalition partner had on the very fabrick of
our society. It is the job of big parties to
come up with fiscally responsible policy proposals and Labor will
(17:38):
do that. And the Greens can make announcements addressed to
sand Claus as much as they like. They are not ours.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Do you accept the Green's plans fiscally irresponsible.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Look, yes I suppose I do, and it's certainly not
Labour's policy.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Well, the reality is you're going to if by some
miracle you get into a position, you're going to have
to take some of it on. And I just it's
just unbelievable and this would be a wrecking boar. We'll
wearing up with that now and people can see that
Actually we've made it work and we're a responsible party
and we're a responsible government because National is there in
the driving seat, driving through a fiscally responsible set of
(18:17):
policies that will get the country back on track.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Your coalition partners have made you run a divisive treaty principles.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Well through all that that's over and done.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
With it on is deep, just upset and hurt as
a result of that. They made you give tax breaks
to tobacco companies. None of this. I don't believe you
want to do any of it, but your coalition partners
made you.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, well as well, you're making the point for me,
which is that coalition is about compromise, and if you
govern with the Greens, you will have to compromise on
all of their insane policies that will drive a wrecking
ball through the economy. So the messages. If you want
a strong government focused on economic growth and the issues
that actually matter, party vote National. If you want a
fiscally insane policy that drives a wrecking ball through the economy,
(19:05):
then you can vote for the parties of the left.
And let's not forget about to party Maury, throw them
into the mix as well. If you want Tamoth of
paul A's police minister who wants to basically abolish the
prisons and defund the police, and if you want Chloe
Swarbrockers Minister of Finance, driving this insane agenda, then you
know you can vote for the left. I know which
well side I choose.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Well, I think that I think Chloe would be a
far push to be finance minister. Anyway, Let's move on
to try to hate using that word anyway. Let's move
on to our own budget that's coming out next to
New Zealand's budget that comes out next week. Nichola Willis,
Oh my gosh, I'm getting excited about it. What can
we expect, Chris, come on, drop us, I mean, you're
(19:45):
not going to tell us you're going to.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
I'm excited about it as well. Look, it'll be a
good budget and it's been a tough budget to put
together because we inherited a mess as you know, and.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Mystery come on mess.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Now you can expect fiscool restraint, which is important, and
you can expect some pro business moves to get growth
back to the economy.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Will it be pro small business or will it be
pro multi national?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Book both both, it'll be both. But the New Zealand
as an economy of small businesses, so when you talk
about you know we're pro business. Ninety five percent of
our businesses are twenty twenty employees and under.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So if there is a criticism of your government right now,
it is that you're not looking after small business and
you're looking straight at one. So you know that's probably
a criticism. Is there going to be anything in the
budget to help small business?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Well that I think the best thing we can do
for small business is get spending under control so interest
rates can come down. Because when interest rates come down,
our households have got more money in their back pocket.
You talk about retail and hospitalities, which you know, well, Nick,
that puts more money in people's back pockets. They can
go out and spend more, go out for a Friday
meal when they otherwise wouldn't have been able to do so,
for example, get a takeaway when they wouldn't have been
able to do it, Go for a drink. You know,
(20:55):
all of those things make a difference. That's about taking
and pay.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Is it going to be Is there going to be difference?
We'll see, We'll hear the budget and we'll say, oh,
that's going to make a difference or is there going
to be another hold on to twenty six.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I think you'll see a difference in the budget. And
it's a good budget for New Zealand's future, but it's look,
it's a medium to long term game of resurrecting this
economy and getting some life back into the joint. So
it's a good budget on the step in the right direction.
But we need another budget after that, and another good
budget after that.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I am going to come back to I don't want
to get icera and I want to come back about
with ier. What are you hearing? I mean, you're in
the beehive. The rumors, the rumor mill will be surrounding.
What are you hearing? What is going to be the
big thing in the budget that you are.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Hearing well, we already know that many of the choices
the government's made is to put their priorities ahead of
the wages of many low paid women in New Zealand.
What I hear regularly from the community is on people
missing out on healthcare, people waiting too long for a
(21:52):
general practitioner, people not being able to get seen by specialists.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And to be fair, that's not changed since your day.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
When you actually actually it has the delays and wish
list appointments have got worse under it.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
They couldn't have got worse.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Yes, they have the numbers bear it out, Nick. They
have got worse, and that is because the government now
has Health New Zealand facing a seven hundred million if
I recall correctly deficit, and then unless they increase the
amount into the health system above what they planned, it'll
still the health system will continue to go back backwards.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I've got a break, but Chris, I want to yes
or no? Is there going to be changes to key
we save it?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
We have to wait for the budget.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Chris Bishop and Eisavira, thank you very much for taking
time out of your very busy schedules.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Thanks mate, and joining us on the show.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
We'll have to wait till next week to find out
whether our key we savers get effected. I think that
almost tells us something's changing, doesn't it. I don't know.
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, maybe I'm reading into it.
Thank you both very much.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am we days,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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