Its scruity week in Parliament - and Labour's health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall is under fire for telling Health NZ commissioner Lester Levy that he has "a reputation for cooking the books". Was she out of line?
Also, some government departments aren't holding Christmas parties this year, citing the "current fiscal environment." Is this just a bit miserable?
To answer those questions, Labour's police spokesperson Ginny Andersen and National's Wairarapa MP Mike Butterick joined Nick Mills for Politics Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said
ba Shine, can you make your decision.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Over joining us for politics Thursday? This week is Labor
MP and Police spokesperson Jenny Anderson. Good morning, Jenny, Good morning, Max.
How are you great? Thank you? How scret you were?
You don't have to do much. You just sit there
and moon, don't you know.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
We'll tell you what's sitting in the same cheer for
about eight hours is not going to your physical health.
I can tell you then.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Okay, the Nationals wirerapper MP Mike Butterick, Good morning, Mike.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Good morning.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Next morning, Jenny, how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Good morning.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
It's been a bit fiery, hasn't it, Jenny?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
It has it has? Indeed, yeah, it's always a bit sparky.
But yeah, there's been there's been some instances. Just another
one's warning it from production. Actually that'll be covered soon.
But yeah, there have been a few instances where we
are tempers have fleet up a bit.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
What have we missed this morning? What's going on?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I've got to be careful to think closed session or not.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I just heard we bet them primary production. There was
something that went down in there that caused a little
bit of a stir about something that wasn't able to
be answered. So I only heard that through to the corridors,
not through any official channel.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Through the corridors of the beehive. Nesh, Come on, Mike,
tell us what happened.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Well, I don't know what I've been in the environment,
so don't know much about that at all.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Now, okay, hopefully we'll find that out in the next
short period of time and give it to your new stalks.
There be as we don't do. We talked about in
the last hour about Christmas parties. Many government agency have
scrapped their Christmas parties the year or asking staff to
pay for themselves. They're saying it's because of the current
fiscal environment. Mike, this is just miserable. Surely the staff
should get a Christmas function, even if it's small and inexpensive.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Well, look, I mean, I guess you know the agencies,
I've got all autonomy over here. They allocate their budgets.
You know, some are going in back those end of
year functions or you know they might be asking for
contributions from stuff. I mean, good on them, you know,
it's the MPs. We're mindful of the side those same
fiscal constraints as well, you know, and we've got to
take those seriously as well as expos money.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Jenny has just been type fisted and obviously the leader.
The bosses of these are terrified. They're not going to
spend any money, are they.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, you know, given that so many public servants have
been laid off this year, you would think that there
would be less expective to hold a Christmas party, but
you know, it's been a hard year for those working
in those positions and everyone deserves to have a bit
of a break and enjoy some funds for colleagues and celebrate.
But it's really it's up to those departments how they
choose to fund.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
There they doing in Parliament? What are you guys doing, Jimmy.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
We have the legendary Press Gallery party, which in true
New Zealand style, is held outside like in Lake Dad's garage,
sort of outside the area and these barbecues and drinks
you've been in that. It's a good party. So that's
usually the number one of a year.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh is that your Christmas party, well kind of.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
It's a kind of the Parliament one. Everyone gets to
give it theear and catches up. We'll all have our
own smaller ones for a Justice Committee having one. We
might have a lunch with staff, but the main one
that we have usually is the press gallery one.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Okay, Mike, what about the nets? What do you got planned?
You'll have something big planned. I see the boss has
just sold another house, so he'll put something on.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
No, no, no, no, we're fully constrained that we're fully constrained.
We just had a very quiet one with some of
us in the ground floor the other day with the
staff and the mpiece as well, and it's very quite
very modest. Good good fun too.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well hard when the boss doesn't drink, and it's hard
to have a party when the big bosses.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
It's not a prerequisite that you can have that you
have Tom.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
No, you're right. I'm the non drinker myself. I know
how to have fun. I don't know whether the Prime
Erston knows how to have fun like I know how
to have fun. But anyway, let's move on. Let's move on.
I'm not having a crack at the Prime Minister By
the way. I just don't think he knows how to party,
like I know how to party because I'm from ninety
party like it's ninety ninety six. Labor Party held US
annual conference last week promising change and refreshed ideas. Then
(04:30):
the two big promises were new fairies. Wow, that's a
new one. And building the Dunedin Hospital. That's another new one,
the exact same promises when it was in government. Jenny,
come on, come on, where's the new ideas?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Well? I don't know if they were spouted out to
be new ideas. There were something commitments in areas where
New Zealanders want some certainty. Both those areas are important
that are funded for the future of our country, and
we currently have a government that's not prepared to commit
to those so we thought it was important to come
out instat it's straight that we stand strongly behind those
(05:03):
communities to support both those critical object.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Mike, what did you think when you saw that? Wasn't
anything new in any of.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
This, was it?
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Well, it was a bit of the same old, same old.
To be honest, and you know text more borrowing more.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Why can't you do it?
Speaker 4 (05:17):
I mean it didn't work out very well, we did
it and you know it came.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Even hospital, it didn't work out very well.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Bring right here, we're committed to building the hospital in Dunedin,
even at one point eight eight or one point nine billion.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, you're committed to building a shed. We don't know
whether it's a hospital, do we.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, it's got no left.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
We've already significantly increased the funding for it by one
hundreds of millions dollars. It's about two hundred million dollars
and I mean that show's commitment. But let's look at
what labor. You know, their budget increase three twenty twenty
three was going to bring it to one point sixty
eight billions, and what's happened has gone up to one
point eight eight. You know they promised it in twenty seventeen.
(06:00):
What's happened, it's just blown out. Not a lot seven Jimmy.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Well, you know this government has played politics with Dunedin's future.
That's a significant hospital for the South Island. Christopher Luxon
promised he shared to get votes, that they would do
it and build the full hospital, and now he's tuned
around and said he's going to back out of it.
It's not fear and that's why you had thousands of
people protesting in the streets of Dunedin. So you know
(06:26):
it's not okay to play politics with the health of
New Zealanders.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
He's starting to do that a bit, Mike. Doesn't he
make promises? Didn't you make promises to the nurses during
the election as well? That's not happened. Things a bit
tighter than they thought they were.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
No, not, We committed to building that hospital and Dunedians,
Dunedian people will get a hospital. You know, the ministers
are just waiting on advice around two options. They're under consideration,
so we can get on and deliver one so the
people in the south. And that's I say, you know,
Labor Promise one. In twenty seventeen, what's happened, Ginny.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Ginny Chris Hopkins announced during this conference too that Labor
government would not joined orcus. Now this is despite the
government having started all these years ago discussion. Remember you
guys were actually saying that we're all about it and
you know, planning it all and doing. Why has he
suddenly changed or why have you guys suddenly changed your
mind on it?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I think we've been concerned that we want our foreign policy.
To be independent, we should stand alone and we shouldn't
have it determined by Washington or we're even Canberra, all Beijing.
So you know, we're quite proud to stand apart and
lead the world by being nuclear free. That's an important
part of our national identity. And that announcement simply says
(07:42):
that we're not going to change now because of what
other partners expect us to do. We want to remain
nuclear free because that's who we are.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
But surely we don't actually even know what our commitments are,
what we have to do with Orcus. So he's going
out too soon, too hard, there isn't he?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Well, we will. We have good information about what is
in Pula one and Parlor two and that the part
of Polar one nuclear powered submarine.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
But we're not talking about Pillar one. We're talking about
Pilar two. We've never talked about Pillar one. We're not
even in that league. We're talking Pillar two.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
It puts New Zealand. I mean the call has been
made and it's been received incredibly well that it's in
a difficult position. New Zealand has to still has forty
percent of its trade going into China. That is a
fundamental business partner for many New Zealand businesses, and some
of those are big dairy businesses in New Zealand. To
(08:36):
jeopardize that critical trade relationship through signing up to UCUS
is dangerous for New Zealand's economic well being. And it's
a shame that the Prime Minister doesn't understand that what.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
You're basically saying, and I'll come to you Mike on
this is that we don't want to upset China. It
sounds like, well, isn't this policy a bit stupid, Mike,
when we actually don't know what's required from UCUS at
the moment.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Pilar two, Well, Love, Yeah, you're right. Let's just talk
about Pilato because that's what we're talking about. Our position
hasn't changed, yep. And the PM's being very clearer than
those comments that conversations are ongoing, but ultimately in any
detail about August, their matters for the p and the
Foreign Minister or something. I'm not going to wait into.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Politics Thursday with it's going to say iseviral, but Isavira's
not here? Jidy Edison's here in the way I should
got here today? Did I? And Mike Butter.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Because our standing arrangement Neck is that when the House
is sitting, get me and when the House is sitting
I'm in Justice Committee. So that's what we arrange at
the start of the year.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Nothing to do with her getting a little bit fiery.
I like, I sure, I'm not going to have a
crack at Eze. I like her. Things got pretty fiery
in Parliament yesterday. It's scrutiny week in the public sector.
Bosses are fronting that included Health New Zealand Commissioner Lester Levy.
It all came from the Health New Zealand's deficit. It
got the numbers wrong and later corrected them. Apparently. Labour's
(09:56):
Health spokesperson then asked Levy about his reputation for cooking
the books. Levy was upset and said it was deflammatory.
Come on, Genny, tell me that this is okay for
a senior politician to behave like this.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Well, Health New Zealand has exaggerated it's deficit to justify
job cuts. That's that's they've come out today and revealed
and quote accounting judgment errors that have led to a
deficit have been used to justify wide ranging cuts to
staff and services. So that's exactly what has happened, that
(10:33):
the anticipation of rebundancy and holiday parts to exaggerate the deficit.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Jenny, I'm not going to let you read out what
you've been given by your advisors. I'm going to ask you,
do you agree that that Levy has got a reputation
for cooking the books?
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Look, I think there's some serious I'm not going to
get personal on your show, but I think that that
Aisha Viral has justifiably raised some serious concerns about how
those numbers.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
This is New Weekends for This is a yes or no,
and this is what an interview is for too so
yes or no question. Either you think Aisha was right
and that he has got a reputation for cooking the box,
or you think she went too hard and might have
overstepped the mark.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yes or no?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I think Aisha is completely right to be questioning the
account of what has happened with Health New Zealand, and
that is exactly the role of the opposition to be
able to question officials about how they've arrived it.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Should she apologize or not?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
I don't think that cooking the books is seriously you know,
in terms of an insulting comment. I think it's a
justified reputation.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Cooking the books. I reput that's pretty tough. That's pretty,
that's pretty, that's that's almost accusing him of fraud. A
reputation for cooking the book that's going pretty farny.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It is incredibly important that and I think you would
agree on this. I mean, I hear where you're coming from.
But the whole point of Scrutiny Week is for the
opposition to be able to take a good look at
decisions and numbers that have been done by this government
and to be able to question them. No, so that
is the purpose of this week.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
No question about that. But putting somebody's reputation at stake
or on the line, that's going next level. Even you
would think that, Jinny.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Look, I agree with where you're coming from. It's always
hard when comments are made to be personal. But the
point that is really clear for your listeners to understand
is that there are some big questions to be asked
about how Health New Zealand was forced to correct their
accounts by the Order to General and that is what
we should be focusing on.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Mike Butterick, is this deflammatory. Do you think it is?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
Well, I won't wait until whether it's inflammatory or not,
but I mean, ladies just spend their week scrutiny, week
thrown around accusations that can busy.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Well, you've obviously talked men, hold on, hold on, hold on,
hold on, hold on, hold on. My I just don't
want this waffle, and our listeners don't want this waffle. Now,
listeners want to know whether you think it's deflammatory or not.
It's a yes or no? Is it as bad as
what we think it is? Yes or no?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
That's difficult to answer, but look, it's not difficult.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
You're making it Mike. You're making it difficult.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
And you know you've used the parliamentary setting to attack
a senior public servant and that's completely inappropriate.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well, obviously it's thefamatory. Then why can't you come out
and say it is.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Look, someone with a legal opinion may make a judgment
on that, Mack, but look, it is completely inappropriate. And
Chris Sipkins needs to get some control over some of
his spokespiece people.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Do you think do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Mike?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Can you answer this? And I'm struggling to get any
answers from you this morning. But can you answer this?
Do you think Ash needs to apologize?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Look, he's the commissioner, has asked for yes or no question.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Why do you have to go into this waffle?
Speaker 4 (14:01):
If it was if I had made an appropriate accusation,
I would be apologized. But look, can I ask.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
You the question? Can I ask you the question which
I would love an answer for, does need to apology?
You apologize?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (14:17):
I think she should.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Okay, there you go, oh there, yeah, all right, that's fine.
That's all. That's all I wanted to know whether you
think she should apologize. I think she should apologize too.
I think it's deflammatory myself. I do as a business
person because if I got labeled that, I would feel it.
And I've got you know, I like Eishavil very much.
I'd feel if I was given that reputation, I'd feel deflamat, deflammatized.
(14:40):
Is this such a weird flame flame the friend? We
made that up? All right, let's move on. We're getting
getting nowhere there, Mike. I'm going to start with you.
This one's come on, and I want some answers. Please.
The number of people on job seeker benefit is shut up?
There are now more than two hundred thousand people receiving
a job seeker benefit, well outside the government's target of
(15:01):
one hundred and forty thousand by two thousand and thirty, Mike,
the government is doing what to get these people into
work because we're not seeing it.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Yeah, Look, there are a number of things happening that
actually and I think it's about two hundred close to
two hundred and five thousand, I think now from about
one hundred and ninety thousand this time last year. Look,
some of this has been caused as it's a direct
result of the recession. There's no argument and about that.
But we've got a number of balls in there if
(15:31):
you like the traffic light system. I was actually talking
to a to a made of mind the other day
now his son, and he said, my son's just been
traffic lighted back into work, and so it was great
to hear that. But you know, we're offering some I
think about ten thousand or phone based case management and
that's going to be working with those job seekers, you know,
(15:52):
to get a plan, and it'll be some of those
things that people need help to be able to get
to work or have a job. It'll be literacy, numeracy,
driver training, counseling, those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
So we understand that we'd like to see it's getting
done to fix it.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Yeah, So I mean that that is it. I mean
that's you know, that's a new thing. The ten thousand
phone based management. You know that that's a new thing
from MSD. The traffic lights system as well, and that
is about encouraging people to have cevs. All those things
that you need to be worked ready, I guess you will.
(16:32):
The economy. We need to get the economy going which
creates jobs.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
One hundred percent. Agree with you there, Jim. Is there
any chance that this target can be met?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
I don't think so. And the big problem, the elephant
in the room, is that you've got a government in
a recession who is using austerity measures, cutting more, and
that's economics one O one. If we haven't learned before
from the mistakes in the eighties, is that when the
economy is in a tough time, cutting and being further
(17:01):
in austerity just creates higher unemployment and it makes the
recession last longer. And that's exactly what this government is
doing by the way they've approached this, and so their
job seeking numbers. They've pledged fifty thousand reduced and it's
risen by over twenty two thousand, So their target now
is effectively seventy two thousand. And that's people's lives. That's
(17:25):
local people who don't have the money to go to
shops and restaurants, and the local economy suffers as a consequence.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
It's almost a population of a reasonable sized city, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
A huge amount of people who aren't earning all pain tacks?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Right, let's move on. Finance Minister Nicholas will have said
this week it's likely that the government will introduce the
tax charges for charities in the next budget. Ginny. When
we look at things like sanitarium and huge multinational million
dollar businesses, surely they should be pain tags.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
It is a bit sneaky though. I think Nicholas sort
of run out of revenue streams. She's managed to get
two point nine billion tax cuts to landlords in about
two hundred and sixteen million I think to the back companies.
But she's now looking for some new ways to shift
hold on. Potentially this is one hold on, Jenny.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Sanitarium are a big multinational company, right, They've probably got
millions in the bank, they're running at profits and they
run by a church, so they don't have to pay
tax as a labor person. I mean, I would have
thought that you guys would have been onto that really quickly.
Why is it that no one wants to tax these churches?
Is it numbers?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
What I want to hear from the government is that
they need to be upfront about what is in or
what is out. And that's why we're calling it a
sneaky tax. She needs to say what is going to
be considered as past part of this instead of just
saying some new sources of revenue. And so if you're
going to announce this or talk about it, be very
(18:56):
clear about what's in or out.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Can I just quickly ask you before I go to
Mike's comment on this, Can I quickly ask you you
were at the conference on the weekend. Is there any
talk in the tax group. I'm sure you would have
being part of that to do it, you guys to
do the same thing labor to look at the two.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Main As far as I'm all, we know, we looked
at two areas and that was a capital gained text
and the wealth TAXT And so the work has been
done on both of those and there was agreement a
conference for that to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay, Mike, why don't National just bring that in now?
Why doesn't Nicola wallis just saying from first to March
next year, any charity that's got money left in their
bank at the end of the financial year pays tax.
Aren't like everyone else.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
It's not quite that. And look, it's not a tax.
It's about actually addressing those loopholes that you talked about.
But it is a tex He's been very clear. It's
about addressing those loopholes. It's a tax and addressing those
So some of those entities that are using charity tax
(19:59):
regime to avoid paying tax, so.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Well, i'd love I'm because it's not a tax. What
is it.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
It's a It's about addressing a loophole that some charities
may be exploiting to avoid paying tax.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So they're not looking at texting. They're not looking at texting.
Charities are looking at making sure that they're paying the
sort of text they should be paying. Well, isn't that
just tax checking out? It's not really, it's not. That's
not going to bring in a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Is it.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Well, who knows? That because we're certainly.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Not in the government.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
But it's about it's about hearing texting you pitched my
laout undermining the role that those charities do play in
our community. So it's making sure that we don't punish
the good and make sure that we try and identify
the bed and those that are that are.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Sideways tobacco companies, Turndred and sixteen million. If you're talking
about not punishing the good and doing the bad, and
why did your government allow to ad in sixteen million
for tobacco company. I mean, no one can explain that.
But tobacco companies are okay, no.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
No, of course we're not going to get a reply.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
On that one.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Radio radio silence. Jenny Anderson, thank you very much. Mike Butterick,
thank you very much. Have a great afternoon. Don't work
too hard. I know it's going to be tough getting scrutinized,
its scrutiny, so enjoy your scrutiny.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Have a great day.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
But I don't talk to you before Christmas. Eppy, Christmas
you and all your listeners.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
You too, Mike, have a great one.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And we look forward to and all our listeners.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah. Likewise to you guys, thanks for all your time
and help.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said
ba Shine, can you make your decision.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Over joining us for politics Thursday? This week is Labor
MP and Police spokesperson Jenny Anderson. Good morning, Jenny, Good morning, Max.
How are you great? Thank you? How scret you were?
You don't have to do much. You just sit there
and moon, don't you know.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
We'll tell you what's sitting in the same cheer for
about eight hours is not going to your physical health.
I can tell you then.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Okay, the Nationals wirerapper MP Mike Butterick, Good morning, Mike.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Good morning.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Next morning, Jenny, how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Good morning.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
It's been a bit fiery, hasn't it, Jenny?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
It has it has? Indeed, yeah, it's always a bit sparky.
But yeah, there's been there's been some instances. Just another
one's warning it from production. Actually that'll be covered soon.
But yeah, there have been a few instances where we
are tempers have fleet up a bit.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
What have we missed this morning? What's going on?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I've got to be careful to think closed session or not.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I just heard we bet them primary production. There was
something that went down in there that caused a little
bit of a stir about something that wasn't able to
be answered. So I only heard that through to the corridors,
not through any official channel.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Through the corridors of the beehive. Nesh, Come on, Mike,
tell us what happened.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Well, I don't know what I've been in the environment,
so don't know much about that at all.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Now, okay, hopefully we'll find that out in the next
short period of time and give it to your new stalks.
There be as we don't do. We talked about in
the last hour about Christmas parties. Many government agency have
scrapped their Christmas parties the year or asking staff to
pay for themselves. They're saying it's because of the current
fiscal environment. Mike, this is just miserable. Surely the staff
should get a Christmas function, even if it's small and inexpensive.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Well, look, I mean, I guess you know the agencies,
I've got all autonomy over here. They allocate their budgets.
You know, some are going in back those end of
year functions or you know they might be asking for
contributions from stuff. I mean, good on them, you know,
it's the MPs. We're mindful of the side those same
fiscal constraints as well, you know, and we've got to
take those seriously as well as expos money.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Jenny has just been type fisted and obviously the leader.
The bosses of these are terrified. They're not going to
spend any money, are they.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, you know, given that so many public servants have
been laid off this year, you would think that there
would be less expective to hold a Christmas party, but
you know, it's been a hard year for those working
in those positions and everyone deserves to have a bit
of a break and enjoy some funds for colleagues and celebrate.
But it's really it's up to those departments how they
choose to fund.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
There they doing in Parliament? What are you guys doing, Jimmy.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
We have the legendary Press Gallery party, which in true
New Zealand style, is held outside like in Lake Dad's garage,
sort of outside the area and these barbecues and drinks
you've been in that. It's a good party. So that's
usually the number one of a year.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh is that your Christmas party, well kind of.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
It's a kind of the Parliament one. Everyone gets to
give it theear and catches up. We'll all have our
own smaller ones for a Justice Committee having one. We
might have a lunch with staff, but the main one
that we have usually is the press gallery one.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Okay, Mike, what about the nets? What do you got planned?
You'll have something big planned. I see the boss has
just sold another house, so he'll put something on.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
No, no, no, no, we're fully constrained that we're fully constrained.
We just had a very quiet one with some of
us in the ground floor the other day with the
staff and the mpiece as well, and it's very quite
very modest. Good good fun too.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well hard when the boss doesn't drink, and it's hard
to have a party when the big bosses.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
It's not a prerequisite that you can have that you
have Tom.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
No, you're right. I'm the non drinker myself. I know
how to have fun. I don't know whether the Prime
Erston knows how to have fun like I know how
to have fun. But anyway, let's move on. Let's move on.
I'm not having a crack at the Prime Minister By
the way. I just don't think he knows how to party,
like I know how to party because I'm from ninety
party like it's ninety ninety six. Labor Party held US
annual conference last week promising change and refreshed ideas. Then
(04:30):
the two big promises were new fairies. Wow, that's a
new one. And building the Dunedin Hospital. That's another new one,
the exact same promises when it was in government. Jenny,
come on, come on, where's the new ideas?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Well? I don't know if they were spouted out to
be new ideas. There were something commitments in areas where
New Zealanders want some certainty. Both those areas are important
that are funded for the future of our country, and
we currently have a government that's not prepared to commit
to those so we thought it was important to come
out instat it's straight that we stand strongly behind those
(05:03):
communities to support both those critical object.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Mike, what did you think when you saw that? Wasn't
anything new in any of.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
This, was it?
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Well, it was a bit of the same old, same old.
To be honest, and you know text more borrowing more.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Why can't you do it?
Speaker 4 (05:17):
I mean it didn't work out very well, we did
it and you know it came.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Even hospital, it didn't work out very well.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Bring right here, we're committed to building the hospital in Dunedin,
even at one point eight eight or one point nine billion.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, you're committed to building a shed. We don't know
whether it's a hospital, do we.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, it's got no left.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
We've already significantly increased the funding for it by one
hundreds of millions dollars. It's about two hundred million dollars
and I mean that show's commitment. But let's look at
what labor. You know, their budget increase three twenty twenty
three was going to bring it to one point sixty
eight billions, and what's happened has gone up to one
point eight eight. You know they promised it in twenty seventeen.
(06:00):
What's happened, it's just blown out. Not a lot seven Jimmy.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Well, you know this government has played politics with Dunedin's future.
That's a significant hospital for the South Island. Christopher Luxon
promised he shared to get votes, that they would do
it and build the full hospital, and now he's tuned
around and said he's going to back out of it.
It's not fear and that's why you had thousands of
people protesting in the streets of Dunedin. So you know
(06:26):
it's not okay to play politics with the health of
New Zealanders.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
He's starting to do that a bit, Mike. Doesn't he
make promises? Didn't you make promises to the nurses during
the election as well? That's not happened. Things a bit
tighter than they thought they were.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
No, not, We committed to building that hospital and Dunedians,
Dunedian people will get a hospital. You know, the ministers
are just waiting on advice around two options. They're under consideration,
so we can get on and deliver one so the
people in the south. And that's I say, you know,
Labor Promise one. In twenty seventeen, what's happened, Ginny.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Ginny Chris Hopkins announced during this conference too that Labor
government would not joined orcus. Now this is despite the
government having started all these years ago discussion. Remember you
guys were actually saying that we're all about it and
you know, planning it all and doing. Why has he
suddenly changed or why have you guys suddenly changed your
mind on it?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I think we've been concerned that we want our foreign policy.
To be independent, we should stand alone and we shouldn't
have it determined by Washington or we're even Canberra, all Beijing.
So you know, we're quite proud to stand apart and
lead the world by being nuclear free. That's an important
part of our national identity. And that announcement simply says
(07:42):
that we're not going to change now because of what
other partners expect us to do. We want to remain
nuclear free because that's who we are.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
But surely we don't actually even know what our commitments are,
what we have to do with Orcus. So he's going
out too soon, too hard, there isn't he?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Well, we will. We have good information about what is
in Pula one and Parlor two and that the part
of Polar one nuclear powered submarine.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
But we're not talking about Pillar one. We're talking about
Pilar two. We've never talked about Pillar one. We're not
even in that league. We're talking Pillar two.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
It puts New Zealand. I mean the call has been
made and it's been received incredibly well that it's in
a difficult position. New Zealand has to still has forty
percent of its trade going into China. That is a
fundamental business partner for many New Zealand businesses, and some
of those are big dairy businesses in New Zealand. To
(08:36):
jeopardize that critical trade relationship through signing up to UCUS
is dangerous for New Zealand's economic well being. And it's
a shame that the Prime Minister doesn't understand that what.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
You're basically saying, and I'll come to you Mike on
this is that we don't want to upset China. It
sounds like, well, isn't this policy a bit stupid, Mike,
when we actually don't know what's required from UCUS at
the moment.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Pilar two, Well, Love, Yeah, you're right. Let's just talk
about Pilato because that's what we're talking about. Our position
hasn't changed, yep. And the PM's being very clearer than
those comments that conversations are ongoing, but ultimately in any
detail about August, their matters for the p and the
Foreign Minister or something. I'm not going to wait into.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Politics Thursday with it's going to say iseviral, but Isavira's
not here? Jidy Edison's here in the way I should
got here today? Did I? And Mike Butter.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Because our standing arrangement Neck is that when the House
is sitting, get me and when the House is sitting
I'm in Justice Committee. So that's what we arrange at
the start of the year.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Nothing to do with her getting a little bit fiery.
I like, I sure, I'm not going to have a
crack at Eze. I like her. Things got pretty fiery
in Parliament yesterday. It's scrutiny week in the public sector.
Bosses are fronting that included Health New Zealand Commissioner Lester Levy.
It all came from the Health New Zealand's deficit. It
got the numbers wrong and later corrected them. Apparently. Labour's
(09:56):
Health spokesperson then asked Levy about his reputation for cooking
the books. Levy was upset and said it was deflammatory.
Come on, Genny, tell me that this is okay for
a senior politician to behave like this.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Well, Health New Zealand has exaggerated it's deficit to justify
job cuts. That's that's they've come out today and revealed
and quote accounting judgment errors that have led to a
deficit have been used to justify wide ranging cuts to
staff and services. So that's exactly what has happened, that
(10:33):
the anticipation of rebundancy and holiday parts to exaggerate the deficit.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Jenny, I'm not going to let you read out what
you've been given by your advisors. I'm going to ask you,
do you agree that that Levy has got a reputation
for cooking the books?
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Look, I think there's some serious I'm not going to
get personal on your show, but I think that that
Aisha Viral has justifiably raised some serious concerns about how
those numbers.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
This is New Weekends for This is a yes or no,
and this is what an interview is for too so
yes or no question. Either you think Aisha was right
and that he has got a reputation for cooking the box,
or you think she went too hard and might have
overstepped the mark.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yes or no?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I think Aisha is completely right to be questioning the
account of what has happened with Health New Zealand, and
that is exactly the role of the opposition to be
able to question officials about how they've arrived it.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Should she apologize or not?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
I don't think that cooking the books is seriously you know,
in terms of an insulting comment. I think it's a
justified reputation.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Cooking the books. I reput that's pretty tough. That's pretty,
that's pretty, that's that's almost accusing him of fraud. A
reputation for cooking the book that's going pretty farny.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It is incredibly important that and I think you would
agree on this. I mean, I hear where you're coming from.
But the whole point of Scrutiny Week is for the
opposition to be able to take a good look at
decisions and numbers that have been done by this government
and to be able to question them. No, so that
is the purpose of this week.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
No question about that. But putting somebody's reputation at stake
or on the line, that's going next level. Even you
would think that, Jinny.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Look, I agree with where you're coming from. It's always
hard when comments are made to be personal. But the
point that is really clear for your listeners to understand
is that there are some big questions to be asked
about how Health New Zealand was forced to correct their
accounts by the Order to General and that is what
we should be focusing on.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Mike Butterick, is this deflammatory. Do you think it is?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
Well, I won't wait until whether it's inflammatory or not,
but I mean, ladies just spend their week scrutiny, week
thrown around accusations that can busy.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Well, you've obviously talked men, hold on, hold on, hold on,
hold on, hold on, hold on. My I just don't
want this waffle, and our listeners don't want this waffle. Now,
listeners want to know whether you think it's deflammatory or not.
It's a yes or no? Is it as bad as
what we think it is? Yes or no?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
That's difficult to answer, but look, it's not difficult.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
You're making it Mike. You're making it difficult.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
And you know you've used the parliamentary setting to attack
a senior public servant and that's completely inappropriate.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well, obviously it's thefamatory. Then why can't you come out
and say it is.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Look, someone with a legal opinion may make a judgment
on that, Mack, but look, it is completely inappropriate. And
Chris Sipkins needs to get some control over some of
his spokespiece people.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Do you think do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Mike?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Can you answer this? And I'm struggling to get any
answers from you this morning. But can you answer this?
Do you think Ash needs to apologize?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Look, he's the commissioner, has asked for yes or no question.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Why do you have to go into this waffle?
Speaker 4 (14:01):
If it was if I had made an appropriate accusation,
I would be apologized. But look, can I ask.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
You the question? Can I ask you the question which
I would love an answer for, does need to apology?
You apologize?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (14:17):
I think she should.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Okay, there you go, oh there, yeah, all right, that's fine.
That's all. That's all I wanted to know whether you
think she should apologize. I think she should apologize too.
I think it's deflammatory myself. I do as a business
person because if I got labeled that, I would feel it.
And I've got you know, I like Eishavil very much.
I'd feel if I was given that reputation, I'd feel deflamat, deflammatized.
(14:40):
Is this such a weird flame flame the friend? We
made that up? All right, let's move on. We're getting
getting nowhere there, Mike. I'm going to start with you.
This one's come on, and I want some answers. Please.
The number of people on job seeker benefit is shut up?
There are now more than two hundred thousand people receiving
a job seeker benefit, well outside the government's target of
(15:01):
one hundred and forty thousand by two thousand and thirty, Mike,
the government is doing what to get these people into
work because we're not seeing it.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Yeah, Look, there are a number of things happening that
actually and I think it's about two hundred close to
two hundred and five thousand, I think now from about
one hundred and ninety thousand this time last year. Look,
some of this has been caused as it's a direct
result of the recession. There's no argument and about that.
But we've got a number of balls in there if
(15:31):
you like the traffic light system. I was actually talking
to a to a made of mind the other day
now his son, and he said, my son's just been
traffic lighted back into work, and so it was great
to hear that. But you know, we're offering some I
think about ten thousand or phone based case management and
that's going to be working with those job seekers, you know,
(15:52):
to get a plan, and it'll be some of those
things that people need help to be able to get
to work or have a job. It'll be literacy, numeracy,
driver training, counseling, those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
So we understand that we'd like to see it's getting
done to fix it.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Yeah, So I mean that that is it. I mean
that's you know, that's a new thing. The ten thousand
phone based management. You know that that's a new thing
from MSD. The traffic lights system as well, and that
is about encouraging people to have cevs. All those things
that you need to be worked ready, I guess you will.
(16:32):
The economy. We need to get the economy going which
creates jobs.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
One hundred percent. Agree with you there, Jim. Is there
any chance that this target can be met?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
I don't think so. And the big problem, the elephant
in the room, is that you've got a government in
a recession who is using austerity measures, cutting more, and
that's economics one O one. If we haven't learned before
from the mistakes in the eighties, is that when the
economy is in a tough time, cutting and being further
(17:01):
in austerity just creates higher unemployment and it makes the
recession last longer. And that's exactly what this government is
doing by the way they've approached this, and so their
job seeking numbers. They've pledged fifty thousand reduced and it's
risen by over twenty two thousand, So their target now
is effectively seventy two thousand. And that's people's lives. That's
(17:25):
local people who don't have the money to go to
shops and restaurants, and the local economy suffers as a consequence.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
It's almost a population of a reasonable sized city, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
A huge amount of people who aren't earning all pain tacks?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Right, let's move on. Finance Minister Nicholas will have said
this week it's likely that the government will introduce the
tax charges for charities in the next budget. Ginny. When
we look at things like sanitarium and huge multinational million
dollar businesses, surely they should be pain tags.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
It is a bit sneaky though. I think Nicholas sort
of run out of revenue streams. She's managed to get
two point nine billion tax cuts to landlords in about
two hundred and sixteen million I think to the back companies.
But she's now looking for some new ways to shift
hold on. Potentially this is one hold on, Jenny.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Sanitarium are a big multinational company, right, They've probably got
millions in the bank, they're running at profits and they
run by a church, so they don't have to pay
tax as a labor person. I mean, I would have
thought that you guys would have been onto that really quickly.
Why is it that no one wants to tax these churches?
Is it numbers?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
What I want to hear from the government is that
they need to be upfront about what is in or
what is out. And that's why we're calling it a
sneaky tax. She needs to say what is going to
be considered as past part of this instead of just
saying some new sources of revenue. And so if you're
going to announce this or talk about it, be very
(18:56):
clear about what's in or out.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Can I just quickly ask you before I go to
Mike's comment on this, Can I quickly ask you you
were at the conference on the weekend. Is there any
talk in the tax group. I'm sure you would have
being part of that to do it, you guys to
do the same thing labor to look at the two.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Main As far as I'm all, we know, we looked
at two areas and that was a capital gained text
and the wealth TAXT And so the work has been
done on both of those and there was agreement a
conference for that to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay, Mike, why don't National just bring that in now?
Why doesn't Nicola wallis just saying from first to March
next year, any charity that's got money left in their
bank at the end of the financial year pays tax.
Aren't like everyone else.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
It's not quite that. And look, it's not a tax.
It's about actually addressing those loopholes that you talked about.
But it is a tex He's been very clear. It's
about addressing those loopholes. It's a tax and addressing those
So some of those entities that are using charity tax
(19:59):
regime to avoid paying tax, so.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Well, i'd love I'm because it's not a tax. What
is it.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
It's a It's about addressing a loophole that some charities
may be exploiting to avoid paying tax.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So they're not looking at texting. They're not looking at texting.
Charities are looking at making sure that they're paying the
sort of text they should be paying. Well, isn't that
just tax checking out? It's not really, it's not. That's
not going to bring in a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Is it.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Well, who knows? That because we're certainly.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Not in the government.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
But it's about it's about hearing texting you pitched my
laout undermining the role that those charities do play in
our community. So it's making sure that we don't punish
the good and make sure that we try and identify
the bed and those that are that are.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Sideways tobacco companies, Turndred and sixteen million. If you're talking
about not punishing the good and doing the bad, and
why did your government allow to ad in sixteen million
for tobacco company. I mean, no one can explain that.
But tobacco companies are okay, no.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
No, of course we're not going to get a reply.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
On that one.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Radio radio silence. Jenny Anderson, thank you very much. Mike Butterick,
thank you very much. Have a great afternoon. Don't work
too hard. I know it's going to be tough getting scrutinized,
its scrutiny, so enjoy your scrutiny.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Have a great day.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
But I don't talk to you before Christmas. Eppy, Christmas
you and all your listeners.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
You too, Mike, have a great one.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And we look forward to and all our listeners.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah. Likewise to you guys, thanks for all your time
and help.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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