August 6, 2025 • 22 mins
The government is hoping to have petrol tax fully scrapped by 2027, with all motorists moving towards paying road user charges per kilometre. But if the idea is that this is cost neutral, what's the point?
Also, Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced a raft of changes to the Fisheries Act, but as a former chair of Sealord and someone who has received donations from the industry, is he the right person to be making these decisions?
To answer those questions, Labour's Ohariu MP Greg O'Connor and National's Bay of Plenty MP Tom Rutherford joined Nick Mills for Politics Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said
b's Shine. Can you make your decision? Ever? Shine?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Joining us for Thursday's politics. Our half hour is Labour's
ohur are you? MP? Greg O'Connor, Good morning, Greek, Good
morning neck. How are you long time?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
No see?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yeah, hanging there.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I thought you'd retired.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
I thought you'd gone. Oh no, too much life in
this Oh yeah, no question about that.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I haven't heard from you lately. National Bay of Plenty
MP Tom Rutherford. Good morning Tom, Good morning Next.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Good morning Greg, Good morning Tom. Tom.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Can you tell our listen a little bit about yourself
because you know, probably Wellingtonians wouldn't know who run Thomas.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, good question.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Nick.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I'm the MP for Bay of Plenty, which is effectively
half of the city of titunger I represent beautiful parts
of mar and Mount Monganui and Welcome Bay and the
Kaimai Rangers and Tapoona. I'm twenty eight years old. I
was twenty six at the election, and I'm both National's
youngest MP and the youngest MP and the government. And
I'm a massive sports nut, used to be a volunteer
(01:36):
firefighter and heah, just lived in my local community for
most of my life. So there you go around in
my story.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Great, young buck, Let's talk unemployment, because young people are
struggling with unemployment, Tom, aren't they. Let's start talking about
the figures that were announced yesterday. Five point two percent,
the highs in five years. Tom. We know this is
affecting young people. You're a young guy. When are we
going to start seeing some good results on this? You
know this number?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, unemployment, as you've write said, Nick, is at five
point two percent. That is lower than what the preview,
which is the pre election fiscal update the forecasted in
twenty twenty three that had it going at five point
four percent. So we know, rising unemployment is tough on kiwis.
And it's because, for the most part, because labor ran
the economy into the ground through having high inflation and
(02:27):
high interest rates, and so our job is ultimately focused
on rebuilding the economy a little bit more and better
paying jobs. And the recovery is now underway with inflation
back and under control and interest rates falling and healthy
rates of growth in the first three months of this year.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Sorry Tom to interrupt you, but all those figures you
told me, I think I would like to argue with you.
I don't think everything's looking that rosy in the economy
at all.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Well, I think, Nick, if you think back to twenty
twenty three, you can remember what we had. We had
high inflation, high interest rates. We've managed to get inflation
back into the target band, the ocr down at three
point twenty five percent, with greed reserve another review.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Greg, Can I interrupt you? Can I just interrupt? Can
I just interrupt you a second? I have an old
saying that I'd just like to tell you, because you're
young and you haven't heard it. If you look back,
all you get is a sore neck. And I'm getting
a little bit fed up from every time I interview
someone from the NATS, all they want to do is say, well,
it was so bad. It was so bad, it's going
(03:32):
to take time. We're running out of runway. Greg, tell
us what you thought when you first heard this figure.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Oh look, I've just listened to Tom. The high interest rates
and high inflation which every country had at that time,
it was all a result that came out of COVID,
which we are all conveniently forgetting. You know, let's just
walk the thing that didn't happen. But every other country
has managed to get it down as well. But I've
(03:58):
also managed to get their economies and growth still going.
And it's only since post to tenty twenty three that
you're seeing the feet that we're seeing in New Zealand.
So I heard the Prime Minister being interviewed by from
PAPU New Guinea saying it's just all about the last
government's fault. Well, I think they'll run out a runway
(04:18):
on that one, because you know, if you keep saying
something over and over again, unfortunately in the minds of
a lot of people, have become true but it's not
actually true. Let's just look at the performance of people
who promise that by now everything will be rosy. Quite frankly,
it's not. Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So Tom, can you give answer me a really simple question,
when is there a timeline where you stop blaming the
previous government. I think everybody in New Zealand that's why
you got into power. Everybody realized that the previous government
had made some mistakes and things were tough when are
you going to stop blaming and show us that you
can actually perform.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Well, I think it's really important just to have context, Nick,
and I think that's why it's important to note where
we've been, what we had previously, so that and actually
we can provide context for what we're seeing today. If
you looked at what the pre foo said, it's said
in twenty twenty three that today unemployment would be at
five point four percent, it's at five point two percent.
That means potentially a number of thousands of people across
(05:20):
New Zealand who are an employment, who had labor been
in leaving the government may not have been an employment
at all. So it's really important to provide that context.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Participation rates way down time and look at what those
figures would look like without immigration immigration, I mean without
those people going to Australia. They've observed us that and
it also says another thing. The OSSI has had all
those same issues at the same time as us. How
come they're doing so much better? Incumbent government's got thrown
out around the world everyone post COVID, but they've all
(05:52):
come back. How come we haven't?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I think, Yeah, Well, it's not always rosy to look
and compare ourselves necessarily to Australia. I think over there
they've got a far better functioning Labor party than we
see what we've got in New Zealand, for example. But
a question I would be having is what's Labour's economic
plan if they're going to put the blame back on us,
what's their economic plan except to increase taxes in the
cost of living crisis, all right, help create jobs?
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Well, well, of course you want that distraction, don't. You
would be crazy to come out with that.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yet, Let's move on because I don't want to get
into Labour's tax policy for the next election just yet,
because it hasn't been announced that unless you know about it, Greek.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
I know nothing.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Great China cross China cross examinable. Try try to cross
it examined an ex senior detective. I think there's been
a pretty tough job to do for me. Right, Let's
talk about what we've been speaking about this morning, which
is the governments are hoping to have a petrol tax
fully scrapped by twenty twenty seven, with all the motorists
moving forward to paying a road user charges per kilometer.
(06:59):
Tom tell us a little bit about whether this will
save any of us any real money. Tell us more
about it.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Yeah so, right now, New Zealanders pay a tax of
about seventy cents of the liter of petrol every time
they fill up at the pump. Fuel taxes are planned
to be abolished and a replaced with digital rucks. This
revenue will funnel into the National Land Transport Funds to
maintain existing roads. And this abolition of the petrol tax
and the move towards all vehicles paying for roads based
(07:27):
on distance and the weight, is the biggest change to
how we fund our roading network in fifty years. We've
noticed our vehicle fleet has changed over a substantial period
of time, more hybrid and electric vehicles. And this is
just about creating a more fear system for Keywis across
the country.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Greg, Is this just optics? Is it just so that
when we drive past the gas station and we see
the prices have come down, we think goscious government's doing
a good job.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
What you reckon about August next year? Just slightly for
an election? You're such a cynic neck. Well, I'm asking question,
I might say, a well informed cynic you are too. Look,
look the changes, there's no doubt about it. Look to
be fair that you something you've always good look at
when you and I can remember the days of the
Carlos days, remember that that's how we tried to control then.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Can I tell you I remember forty six cents a gallon?
Speaker 4 (08:14):
Yeah, well we were that was the olden days. But everything,
but you've got to look at the changes that have
taken place then since then. And I've heard a lot
of your callers this morning talking about that virtually in
that regime anyway, when they are in their private companies,
and look, there's too much we don't know about it.
But if it's going to be a way of just
(08:35):
getting more money out of motorists, the first question I
had was the boats, because they do damage. I noticed
that one of your callers brought that up before. Are
we going to still have registration on trailers because you
have to register your trailer, don't you, And of course
that's do we take them off. That's how you pay
for your share of the road through registration. So there's
(08:58):
all these things that have yet to be worked out.
In principle. I think that it's probably starting to look
like in an electronic world in which we are take
you away a paper based system on the windscreens of
our cars and doing more electronically. It's going to make sense.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
So Tim, tell me what involvement the private sector is
going to have in this. I'm all for that. I mean,
if that can make it more cost efficient, we get
smart people in private sector doing it, I'm all for it.
Tell me the involvement there.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Yeah, So by twenty twenty seven, the RUCK system will
be open for business and third party providers are able
to offer innovative payment services and a consistent approval process
in place, so effectively, that'll be the involvement of the
private sector.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Nick won't be them setting it up.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
No, So what we'll be doing is in parallel with
MDTA and the police. There'll be an upgrade to the
systems around enforcement. But this is being done through the
MDTA and the changes we're making there.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Great Tom Rudford joins us as well as Greg O'Connor
on the Politics Thursday. We talked on the show yesterday
about the Big Fishery Fisheries Act changes. Fisheries Minister Shane
Jones is bringing in, but as a former chair of
Sea Lords and someone who's received donations from the industry.
(10:20):
I feel very uncomfortable with this, and so did some
of our callers. Greg O'Connor, is there a conflict with
him making decisions based on fishery fisheries with his strong
background in it.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Absolutely, there's a difference between having a good knowledge of it,
which is good, but also being an advocate. It's interesting
because I was the Police Association president. When I came
into Parliament. There was a bit of a feeling that
because I've been such a strong advocate, that it was
going to be difficult for me to pick up a
police portfolio, and looking back on it, I could see
(10:53):
that that was correct. It's a little bit like, you know,
the guns Nicole McKee coming in and you know, being
now doing all this work on the arms industry when
she has been an advocate for it. So yes, absolutely
I think there's a conflict. But then you've got to
look through at the changes and it looks some of
(11:14):
those changes once we see a few more of the details.
But you've got a New Zealand, you go overseas and
anyone involved in fishing has looked at the New Zealand
system and said, you guys got it right. Our whole
the way that we have had cameras and all well
put to your quota system. It's been admired around the
(11:34):
world and others have tried to pick it up. It's
like a lot of the things that we've been world
beaters at we're starting to dismantle a little bit, and
this thing is being able to switch your quotas next
to the next year. I can see I know a
few characters involved in the fisheries industries.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Well, you don't have to don't have to go deep
to dive too deeply into the media to find stories
about corrupt fisheries, do you. But anyway, I'll just ask Tom, Tom, Tom,
I want to know what you think. He's a young gun, right,
should Change Jones be the minister responsible here?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
With his background?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, I think it's important to have people who have
a diverse background in Parliament holding a variety of different roles.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
This, hold on, hold on, hold hold on. I just
want to get this clear. This is a little bit
different than a diverse group of backgrounds. This is a
guy who's been involved in the fisheries as a chairman
of one of the biggest fishing if not the biggest
fishing company in New Zealand been on the White Hangi
tribuneial discussing and being involved in fisheries and getting donations
(12:41):
from fisheries. I mean, surely that manual would have something
to say about that.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Well, I'm not suggesting anyone thinks he's breached the cabinet manual,
per se. I know, I don't think you or Greg
are suggesting that, even Nick. But questions around who Shane
Jones has met with are best put to him to ask.
But we feel that commercial fishing companies shouldn't be subject
to the IAA, and that's what a large part of
these fisheries reforms are really about and supporting economic growth
(13:10):
at the same time.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Too, Okay, Greg, they shouldn't or should be subject for
the o I A.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They shouldn't be subject to the.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
O I why like the camera.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Footage from on board footage from on board cabinet and
cameras shouldn't be subjects to the i A to protect
fisheries privacy and commercial confidentiality. The reform provides clear rules
for when monitored vessels must land fish or release them,
and fishers can choose to land or discard catch.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
So sorry, Tom, I know you're reading from a script.
But I mean, I'm really confused. I'm really confused here.
How is it commercially sensitive how they pull a net
up from the water.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I think every fishy fishing operator, for example, has different
ways of operating how they do it in line with
the acts, and I think having that disclosed through the
eye O I A does have some commercial sensitivity, sensitivity
involved with it, and so that's why the Minister in Charge,
Shane Jones, is bringing about these reforms.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
But is it like every O I A that's subject
each one is subject to that scrutiny on request by request.
Surely that's the way to keep it. Surely just a
blacklick blanket. Say no, come on, Tom, I mean, I
know you your party lines, but I think even as
(14:36):
a reasonable thinking young man, you'd know that that doesn't
sound right.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
That's coming from an exit dilection billboard. Greg, I'm going
to be putting that on my election billboard. Greg O'Connor
thinks I'm a recentably well thought young man. Thank you, Greg.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Careful some of the other comments might come into right.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Let's move on to education. We're going to get nowhere.
We're not going to get anywhere there on that one,
So let's move on to education. Education Minister Erica Stanford
announced this week in ce A is our well and
a new system will be slowly phased in. It'll bring
back the eight to f and the zero to one
hundred grading. Tom, you were being a young guy, you
would have done INCA. That's me and Greg definitely didn't.
(15:19):
What was wrong with it?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah, you're quite right, Nick. I did do NCAA and
I think I turned out reasonably okay. But that's up
to people to decide. But we're proposing to replace the
NCAA with a new national qualification that ensures young people
have the knowledge and schools they need. And I think
NCAA became it had many pitfalls associated with it. Had
(15:42):
some good things in it, don't get me wrong, but
as a parent, for a lot of people, it was
particularly confusing about why were their kids not needing to
go to do their exams. You know, two hundred and
fifty thousand exam papers were blank, kids qualifying and getting
their grades before even sitting the end of the year exams.
Were they in the best place when they went out
into the workforce. I think Labor acknowledged that there were
(16:05):
some challenges within, and so we're going about and being
bold and making these changes, and I think it's a
really positive stet.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Greg.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
The issue did I have with all this stuff? And
I think there's some really positive stuff in it. I
don't want to be negative about it. I think there's
some real positive. What scares me is the young person
that slips through the gaps and actually leaves school thinking
that they are not as clever as they really are.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Well, I think that was what it was designed to do,
so that at least people came out with some qualification,
something to put on their CV. Quite interesting to see
UI you and I would have got you? Did you
get UI are credited? Nick?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry no, I but that was the
system where we didn't sit in an exam. Yeah, but
you could sit exam if you didn't get it a credit,
you still could have sat it in part.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
That's right. But I actually got a credit it against
all odds, so I didn't have to sit an exam
which was as similar. That was what it was all
based on. Look, I mean nothing wrong with change. I've
got a thirty five year old sign who asked him
this morning. In fact, he was on the same class
as your son at Wellington College. I asked, what did
you think about n c A, and I didn't know
any different they were. Do you know they were I
(17:13):
think the first kids to go through it, or yeah
it was, it wasn't farther and they it was quite
heavy to know. And look, both my kids got degrees,
one probably more high qualified, and my daughter, well, she's
someone who would have done well in any system. She
was in AASA was there to get into the first fifteen,
(17:34):
but also came out with the qualification, and I just
it seemed to have worked. But look, don't let's have
a look at some more details of just how this
is going to work before we say yes or no.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Did you get a degree out of going through n CEA.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Top I got my n c A Level three and
then I went off to university after that, so yeah,
I got university entrants from from doing my NCA studies
at school.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
So the system worked for you, It.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Worked for me, but hasn't necessarily worked everyone else. I
think it's you know, I agree with you Nick in
your earlier comments. It was designed to be flexible, but
I think part of that flexibility has actually encouraged a
focus on simply just attaining nca rather than actually wanting
to develop critical skills and knowledge and clear pathways into
(18:26):
study and training and employment. And I think that's what
the issue is that we've got here.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
I know it's your job to ask a question. Can
I ask who didn't it work for Tom? At your school?
Would you go to Boys High in Tarraga? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Also I went to a local school here in Toninga,
and there were a number of kids who, for example,
would attain their NCAA credits by about halfway through the year,
have passed the year, and then simply give up for
the latter half of the year, not attend the exams
or turn up for forty five minutes or an hour
of the exam. Not necessarily you know they had passed.
But actually you want when your kids are in school,
(19:02):
you want them to be committed to their learning journey.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
So what did they go on to do? What do
they go on to do?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I'm not going to dive into each of their individual cases, Greg,
but you know, obviously got to respect the privacy of people.
But some people have gone onto really good things. Some
people are in some really challenging positions. Everyone's got a
different life story and what we can I be saying,
is we need to change the system to make it work.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Can I just quickly move on because I know you
both got to go. I want to a topic that
really frustrates the hell out of me personally. I'm sure
it frustrates a lot of our listeners. The Grocery Commissioner
released this latest report yesterday on the sector. He found
prices have a stabilized but we still pay a lot
for groceries compared to other countries in the OECD. In fact,
we're fifth on the list. I personally have my own
(19:48):
opinion of what this commissioner has done. But Tom, why
are we always hearing that something's going to be done
about the supermarket sector and why do we use it
as a red flag and yet nothing happens.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Well, I think what you're seeing under us and this
is actually that we doing something about the grocery sector.
Unlike the other side who can't deliver and actually did
nothing about it and made no changes. We've come out
really strongly and said.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Are allowed to you orner to these microphones? Mix?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, Tom, I'm having I'm struggling to believe that that's
coming from your mouth. Actually, I'm really I mean, I
don't want to have a crack at you, but I mean,
come on, you obviously haven't been into a supermarket and
bought cheese and butter lately and bought a bought a
half a kilo tomatoes. I mean, I mean, you cannot
possibly say that you've done anything about the supermarket system.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
We've got work underway to improve competition in the sector.
That's what we're doing. Nichola Willis has said a lot
about it. We've got some further information coming out before
the end of September around some of the changes that
we're going to be delivering in this space. But you've
got to remember Nick, when later A were in, they
did absolutely nothing about supermarket competition.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well, they gave us I mean, I agree with this,
I agree, yeah, but the commission has been absolutely hopeless. Well,
the commissioner has been that he has done absolutely nothing.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
We're demanding at the time, though there's Tim's just totally
and utterly wrong there, you know, because the commissioner was
everyone agreed at the time that at least we're going
to have an independent in the looking at it. Look,
I'll tell you what has.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
He done, Greed?
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Do you know what?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Tell me something, Tell me one thing that the Commission
has done, and I'll be sad as well.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Look, I don't know that because he hasn't done anything.
You would know there we go, well, well, I don't
believe he has, but he's I mean I would need
to know in Look, because it's one of these.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Things, and I mean, we can't discuss that because we
both agree on it. He's done nothing. And Nikola willis.
For as much as I like her, she has continued
to jump up and down and fix the muscles time
and she's done nothing.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Do you know. One of the biggest complaints we get
is from providers to supermarkets saying how they get knocked back.
You know, their prices. I'm sure you've got putting them
up your ear, Tom when that's applying to supermarkets, and boy,
they get really knocked back in what the prices they
get by the supermakeers themselves. That's the biggest complaint I get.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Okay, the biggest complaint I get, and I spent a
lot of hours listening to people's complaints on a radio station.
The complaints I get is everybody talks about it. Nothing,
No one does anything about it, and probably can't do
anything about it and will not be able to do
anything about it, but keep talking about it. Labor's Ohari MP,
Gregor kind of thanks for coming in and National Bay
(22:34):
of Plenty bayor plenty MP young Gun. Let's call them
the young Gun. Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Tom.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I hope it wasn't too painful for you. Enjoyed having
you on. Tom Rudford from the NATS.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Thanks thanks, Greg.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Cheers For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen
live to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine to
am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said
b's Shine. Can you make your decision? Ever? Shine?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Joining us for Thursday's politics. Our half hour is Labour's
ohur are you? MP? Greg O'Connor, Good morning, Greek, Good
morning neck. How are you long time?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
No see?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yeah, hanging there.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I thought you'd retired.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
I thought you'd gone. Oh no, too much life in
this Oh yeah, no question about that.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I haven't heard from you lately. National Bay of Plenty
MP Tom Rutherford. Good morning Tom, Good morning Next.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Good morning Greg, Good morning Tom. Tom.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Can you tell our listen a little bit about yourself
because you know, probably Wellingtonians wouldn't know who run Thomas.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, good question.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Nick.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I'm the MP for Bay of Plenty, which is effectively
half of the city of titunger I represent beautiful parts
of mar and Mount Monganui and Welcome Bay and the
Kaimai Rangers and Tapoona. I'm twenty eight years old. I
was twenty six at the election, and I'm both National's
youngest MP and the youngest MP and the government. And
I'm a massive sports nut, used to be a volunteer
(01:36):
firefighter and heah, just lived in my local community for
most of my life. So there you go around in
my story.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Great, young buck, Let's talk unemployment, because young people are
struggling with unemployment, Tom, aren't they. Let's start talking about
the figures that were announced yesterday. Five point two percent,
the highs in five years. Tom. We know this is
affecting young people. You're a young guy. When are we
going to start seeing some good results on this? You
know this number?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, unemployment, as you've write said, Nick, is at five
point two percent. That is lower than what the preview,
which is the pre election fiscal update the forecasted in
twenty twenty three that had it going at five point
four percent. So we know, rising unemployment is tough on kiwis.
And it's because, for the most part, because labor ran
the economy into the ground through having high inflation and
(02:27):
high interest rates, and so our job is ultimately focused
on rebuilding the economy a little bit more and better
paying jobs. And the recovery is now underway with inflation
back and under control and interest rates falling and healthy
rates of growth in the first three months of this year.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Sorry Tom to interrupt you, but all those figures you
told me, I think I would like to argue with you.
I don't think everything's looking that rosy in the economy
at all.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Well, I think, Nick, if you think back to twenty
twenty three, you can remember what we had. We had
high inflation, high interest rates. We've managed to get inflation
back into the target band, the ocr down at three
point twenty five percent, with greed reserve another review.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Greg, Can I interrupt you? Can I just interrupt? Can
I just interrupt you a second? I have an old
saying that I'd just like to tell you, because you're
young and you haven't heard it. If you look back,
all you get is a sore neck. And I'm getting
a little bit fed up from every time I interview
someone from the NATS, all they want to do is say, well,
it was so bad. It was so bad, it's going
(03:32):
to take time. We're running out of runway. Greg, tell
us what you thought when you first heard this figure.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Oh look, I've just listened to Tom. The high interest rates
and high inflation which every country had at that time,
it was all a result that came out of COVID,
which we are all conveniently forgetting. You know, let's just
walk the thing that didn't happen. But every other country
has managed to get it down as well. But I've
(03:58):
also managed to get their economies and growth still going.
And it's only since post to tenty twenty three that
you're seeing the feet that we're seeing in New Zealand.
So I heard the Prime Minister being interviewed by from
PAPU New Guinea saying it's just all about the last
government's fault. Well, I think they'll run out a runway
(04:18):
on that one, because you know, if you keep saying
something over and over again, unfortunately in the minds of
a lot of people, have become true but it's not
actually true. Let's just look at the performance of people
who promise that by now everything will be rosy. Quite frankly,
it's not. Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So Tom, can you give answer me a really simple question,
when is there a timeline where you stop blaming the
previous government. I think everybody in New Zealand that's why
you got into power. Everybody realized that the previous government
had made some mistakes and things were tough when are
you going to stop blaming and show us that you
can actually perform.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Well, I think it's really important just to have context, Nick,
and I think that's why it's important to note where
we've been, what we had previously, so that and actually
we can provide context for what we're seeing today. If
you looked at what the pre foo said, it's said
in twenty twenty three that today unemployment would be at
five point four percent, it's at five point two percent.
That means potentially a number of thousands of people across
(05:20):
New Zealand who are an employment, who had labor been
in leaving the government may not have been an employment
at all. So it's really important to provide that context.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Participation rates way down time and look at what those
figures would look like without immigration immigration, I mean without
those people going to Australia. They've observed us that and
it also says another thing. The OSSI has had all
those same issues at the same time as us. How
come they're doing so much better? Incumbent government's got thrown
out around the world everyone post COVID, but they've all
(05:52):
come back. How come we haven't?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I think, Yeah, Well, it's not always rosy to look
and compare ourselves necessarily to Australia. I think over there
they've got a far better functioning Labor party than we
see what we've got in New Zealand, for example. But
a question I would be having is what's Labour's economic
plan if they're going to put the blame back on us,
what's their economic plan except to increase taxes in the
cost of living crisis, all right, help create jobs?
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Well, well, of course you want that distraction, don't. You
would be crazy to come out with that.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yet, Let's move on because I don't want to get
into Labour's tax policy for the next election just yet,
because it hasn't been announced that unless you know about it, Greek.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
I know nothing.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Great China cross China cross examinable. Try try to cross
it examined an ex senior detective. I think there's been
a pretty tough job to do for me. Right, Let's
talk about what we've been speaking about this morning, which
is the governments are hoping to have a petrol tax
fully scrapped by twenty twenty seven, with all the motorists
moving forward to paying a road user charges per kilometer.
(06:59):
Tom tell us a little bit about whether this will
save any of us any real money. Tell us more
about it.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Yeah so, right now, New Zealanders pay a tax of
about seventy cents of the liter of petrol every time
they fill up at the pump. Fuel taxes are planned
to be abolished and a replaced with digital rucks. This
revenue will funnel into the National Land Transport Funds to
maintain existing roads. And this abolition of the petrol tax
and the move towards all vehicles paying for roads based
(07:27):
on distance and the weight, is the biggest change to
how we fund our roading network in fifty years. We've
noticed our vehicle fleet has changed over a substantial period
of time, more hybrid and electric vehicles. And this is
just about creating a more fear system for Keywis across
the country.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Greg, Is this just optics? Is it just so that
when we drive past the gas station and we see
the prices have come down, we think goscious government's doing
a good job.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
What you reckon about August next year? Just slightly for
an election? You're such a cynic neck. Well, I'm asking question,
I might say, a well informed cynic you are too. Look,
look the changes, there's no doubt about it. Look to
be fair that you something you've always good look at
when you and I can remember the days of the
Carlos days, remember that that's how we tried to control then.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Can I tell you I remember forty six cents a gallon?
Speaker 4 (08:14):
Yeah, well we were that was the olden days. But everything,
but you've got to look at the changes that have
taken place then since then. And I've heard a lot
of your callers this morning talking about that virtually in
that regime anyway, when they are in their private companies,
and look, there's too much we don't know about it.
But if it's going to be a way of just
(08:35):
getting more money out of motorists, the first question I
had was the boats, because they do damage. I noticed
that one of your callers brought that up before. Are
we going to still have registration on trailers because you
have to register your trailer, don't you, And of course
that's do we take them off. That's how you pay
for your share of the road through registration. So there's
(08:58):
all these things that have yet to be worked out.
In principle. I think that it's probably starting to look
like in an electronic world in which we are take
you away a paper based system on the windscreens of
our cars and doing more electronically. It's going to make sense.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
So Tim, tell me what involvement the private sector is
going to have in this. I'm all for that. I mean,
if that can make it more cost efficient, we get
smart people in private sector doing it, I'm all for it.
Tell me the involvement there.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Yeah, So by twenty twenty seven, the RUCK system will
be open for business and third party providers are able
to offer innovative payment services and a consistent approval process
in place, so effectively, that'll be the involvement of the
private sector.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Nick won't be them setting it up.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
No, So what we'll be doing is in parallel with
MDTA and the police. There'll be an upgrade to the
systems around enforcement. But this is being done through the
MDTA and the changes we're making there.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Great Tom Rudford joins us as well as Greg O'Connor
on the Politics Thursday. We talked on the show yesterday
about the Big Fishery Fisheries Act changes. Fisheries Minister Shane
Jones is bringing in, but as a former chair of
Sea Lords and someone who's received donations from the industry.
(10:20):
I feel very uncomfortable with this, and so did some
of our callers. Greg O'Connor, is there a conflict with
him making decisions based on fishery fisheries with his strong
background in it.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Absolutely, there's a difference between having a good knowledge of it,
which is good, but also being an advocate. It's interesting
because I was the Police Association president. When I came
into Parliament. There was a bit of a feeling that
because I've been such a strong advocate, that it was
going to be difficult for me to pick up a
police portfolio, and looking back on it, I could see
(10:53):
that that was correct. It's a little bit like, you know,
the guns Nicole McKee coming in and you know, being
now doing all this work on the arms industry when
she has been an advocate for it. So yes, absolutely
I think there's a conflict. But then you've got to
look through at the changes and it looks some of
(11:14):
those changes once we see a few more of the details.
But you've got a New Zealand, you go overseas and
anyone involved in fishing has looked at the New Zealand
system and said, you guys got it right. Our whole
the way that we have had cameras and all well
put to your quota system. It's been admired around the
(11:34):
world and others have tried to pick it up. It's
like a lot of the things that we've been world
beaters at we're starting to dismantle a little bit, and
this thing is being able to switch your quotas next
to the next year. I can see I know a
few characters involved in the fisheries industries.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Well, you don't have to don't have to go deep
to dive too deeply into the media to find stories
about corrupt fisheries, do you. But anyway, I'll just ask Tom, Tom, Tom,
I want to know what you think. He's a young gun, right,
should Change Jones be the minister responsible here?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
With his background?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, I think it's important to have people who have
a diverse background in Parliament holding a variety of different roles.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
This, hold on, hold on, hold hold on. I just
want to get this clear. This is a little bit
different than a diverse group of backgrounds. This is a
guy who's been involved in the fisheries as a chairman
of one of the biggest fishing if not the biggest
fishing company in New Zealand been on the White Hangi
tribuneial discussing and being involved in fisheries and getting donations
(12:41):
from fisheries. I mean, surely that manual would have something
to say about that.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Well, I'm not suggesting anyone thinks he's breached the cabinet manual,
per se. I know, I don't think you or Greg
are suggesting that, even Nick. But questions around who Shane
Jones has met with are best put to him to ask.
But we feel that commercial fishing companies shouldn't be subject
to the IAA, and that's what a large part of
these fisheries reforms are really about and supporting economic growth
(13:10):
at the same time.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Too, Okay, Greg, they shouldn't or should be subject for
the o I A.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They shouldn't be subject to the.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
O I why like the camera.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Footage from on board footage from on board cabinet and
cameras shouldn't be subjects to the i A to protect
fisheries privacy and commercial confidentiality. The reform provides clear rules
for when monitored vessels must land fish or release them,
and fishers can choose to land or discard catch.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
So sorry, Tom, I know you're reading from a script.
But I mean, I'm really confused. I'm really confused here.
How is it commercially sensitive how they pull a net
up from the water.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I think every fishy fishing operator, for example, has different
ways of operating how they do it in line with
the acts, and I think having that disclosed through the
eye O I A does have some commercial sensitivity, sensitivity
involved with it, and so that's why the Minister in Charge,
Shane Jones, is bringing about these reforms.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
But is it like every O I A that's subject
each one is subject to that scrutiny on request by request.
Surely that's the way to keep it. Surely just a
blacklick blanket. Say no, come on, Tom, I mean, I
know you your party lines, but I think even as
(14:36):
a reasonable thinking young man, you'd know that that doesn't
sound right.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
That's coming from an exit dilection billboard. Greg, I'm going
to be putting that on my election billboard. Greg O'Connor
thinks I'm a recentably well thought young man. Thank you, Greg.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Careful some of the other comments might come into right.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Let's move on to education. We're going to get nowhere.
We're not going to get anywhere there on that one,
So let's move on to education. Education Minister Erica Stanford
announced this week in ce A is our well and
a new system will be slowly phased in. It'll bring
back the eight to f and the zero to one
hundred grading. Tom, you were being a young guy, you
would have done INCA. That's me and Greg definitely didn't.
(15:19):
What was wrong with it?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah, you're quite right, Nick. I did do NCAA and
I think I turned out reasonably okay. But that's up
to people to decide. But we're proposing to replace the
NCAA with a new national qualification that ensures young people
have the knowledge and schools they need. And I think
NCAA became it had many pitfalls associated with it. Had
(15:42):
some good things in it, don't get me wrong, but
as a parent, for a lot of people, it was
particularly confusing about why were their kids not needing to
go to do their exams. You know, two hundred and
fifty thousand exam papers were blank, kids qualifying and getting
their grades before even sitting the end of the year exams.
Were they in the best place when they went out
into the workforce. I think Labor acknowledged that there were
(16:05):
some challenges within, and so we're going about and being
bold and making these changes, and I think it's a
really positive stet.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Greg.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
The issue did I have with all this stuff? And
I think there's some really positive stuff in it. I
don't want to be negative about it. I think there's
some real positive. What scares me is the young person
that slips through the gaps and actually leaves school thinking
that they are not as clever as they really are.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Well, I think that was what it was designed to do,
so that at least people came out with some qualification,
something to put on their CV. Quite interesting to see
UI you and I would have got you? Did you
get UI are credited? Nick?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry no, I but that was the
system where we didn't sit in an exam. Yeah, but
you could sit exam if you didn't get it a credit,
you still could have sat it in part.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
That's right. But I actually got a credit it against
all odds, so I didn't have to sit an exam
which was as similar. That was what it was all
based on. Look, I mean nothing wrong with change. I've
got a thirty five year old sign who asked him
this morning. In fact, he was on the same class
as your son at Wellington College. I asked, what did
you think about n c A, and I didn't know
any different they were. Do you know they were I
(17:13):
think the first kids to go through it, or yeah
it was, it wasn't farther and they it was quite
heavy to know. And look, both my kids got degrees,
one probably more high qualified, and my daughter, well, she's
someone who would have done well in any system. She
was in AASA was there to get into the first fifteen,
(17:34):
but also came out with the qualification, and I just
it seemed to have worked. But look, don't let's have
a look at some more details of just how this
is going to work before we say yes or no.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Did you get a degree out of going through n CEA.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Top I got my n c A Level three and
then I went off to university after that, so yeah,
I got university entrants from from doing my NCA studies
at school.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
So the system worked for you, It.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Worked for me, but hasn't necessarily worked everyone else. I
think it's you know, I agree with you Nick in
your earlier comments. It was designed to be flexible, but
I think part of that flexibility has actually encouraged a
focus on simply just attaining nca rather than actually wanting
to develop critical skills and knowledge and clear pathways into
(18:26):
study and training and employment. And I think that's what
the issue is that we've got here.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
I know it's your job to ask a question. Can
I ask who didn't it work for Tom? At your school?
Would you go to Boys High in Tarraga? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Also I went to a local school here in Toninga,
and there were a number of kids who, for example,
would attain their NCAA credits by about halfway through the year,
have passed the year, and then simply give up for
the latter half of the year, not attend the exams
or turn up for forty five minutes or an hour
of the exam. Not necessarily you know they had passed.
But actually you want when your kids are in school,
(19:02):
you want them to be committed to their learning journey.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
So what did they go on to do? What do
they go on to do?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I'm not going to dive into each of their individual cases, Greg,
but you know, obviously got to respect the privacy of people.
But some people have gone onto really good things. Some
people are in some really challenging positions. Everyone's got a
different life story and what we can I be saying,
is we need to change the system to make it work.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Can I just quickly move on because I know you
both got to go. I want to a topic that
really frustrates the hell out of me personally. I'm sure
it frustrates a lot of our listeners. The Grocery Commissioner
released this latest report yesterday on the sector. He found
prices have a stabilized but we still pay a lot
for groceries compared to other countries in the OECD. In fact,
we're fifth on the list. I personally have my own
(19:48):
opinion of what this commissioner has done. But Tom, why
are we always hearing that something's going to be done
about the supermarket sector and why do we use it
as a red flag and yet nothing happens.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Well, I think what you're seeing under us and this
is actually that we doing something about the grocery sector.
Unlike the other side who can't deliver and actually did
nothing about it and made no changes. We've come out
really strongly and said.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Are allowed to you orner to these microphones? Mix?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, Tom, I'm having I'm struggling to believe that that's
coming from your mouth. Actually, I'm really I mean, I
don't want to have a crack at you, but I mean,
come on, you obviously haven't been into a supermarket and
bought cheese and butter lately and bought a bought a
half a kilo tomatoes. I mean, I mean, you cannot
possibly say that you've done anything about the supermarket system.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
We've got work underway to improve competition in the sector.
That's what we're doing. Nichola Willis has said a lot
about it. We've got some further information coming out before
the end of September around some of the changes that
we're going to be delivering in this space. But you've
got to remember Nick, when later A were in, they
did absolutely nothing about supermarket competition.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well, they gave us I mean, I agree with this,
I agree, yeah, but the commission has been absolutely hopeless. Well,
the commissioner has been that he has done absolutely nothing.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
We're demanding at the time, though there's Tim's just totally
and utterly wrong there, you know, because the commissioner was
everyone agreed at the time that at least we're going
to have an independent in the looking at it. Look,
I'll tell you what has.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
He done, Greed?
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Do you know what?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Tell me something, Tell me one thing that the Commission
has done, and I'll be sad as well.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Look, I don't know that because he hasn't done anything.
You would know there we go, well, well, I don't
believe he has, but he's I mean I would need
to know in Look, because it's one of these.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Things, and I mean, we can't discuss that because we
both agree on it. He's done nothing. And Nikola willis.
For as much as I like her, she has continued
to jump up and down and fix the muscles time
and she's done nothing.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Do you know. One of the biggest complaints we get
is from providers to supermarkets saying how they get knocked back.
You know, their prices. I'm sure you've got putting them
up your ear, Tom when that's applying to supermarkets, and boy,
they get really knocked back in what the prices they
get by the supermakeers themselves. That's the biggest complaint I get.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Okay, the biggest complaint I get, and I spent a
lot of hours listening to people's complaints on a radio station.
The complaints I get is everybody talks about it. Nothing,
No one does anything about it, and probably can't do
anything about it and will not be able to do
anything about it, but keep talking about it. Labor's Ohari MP,
Gregor kind of thanks for coming in and National Bay
(22:34):
of Plenty bayor plenty MP young Gun. Let's call them
the young Gun. Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Tom.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I hope it wasn't too painful for you. Enjoyed having
you on. Tom Rudford from the NATS.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Thanks thanks, Greg.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Cheers For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen
live to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine to
am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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