September 9, 2025 • 20 mins
New Zealand's national museum Te Papa was recently named in the top 1% "Best of the Best attractions worldwide" in the TripAdvisor 2025 Travellers' Choice Awards.
The museum on Wellington's waterfront was also labelled the best attraction in New Zealand, and the fifth best attraction in the South Pacific.
However, with a slower than expected tourism recovery, Te Papa is forecasting a $13m deficit for the 2025/26 financial year and lowering its visitor target.
Te Papa CEO Courtney Johnston joins Nick Mills in studio to talk about the museum's importance to Wellington and what's coming over the next few months.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, we've been trying to get this young woman on
our show for a long time. She's an impressive person
and she's running an impressive organization. We welcome to Papa's CEO,
Courtney Johnston, and it's Courtney with a C and a
Johnston with a no.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
E on the end. Exactly. You've taken a lot of
restaurant bookings in your lifetime, haven't you.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Well, I'm the world's worst person at right of spelling
and writing people's names down and so, but I understand
with sports contracts that you've got to spell their names
right there you go.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
So often people call me the N with the D
in front of.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
It, I wouldn't dare to comment.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Let's talk about our National Museum to Papa. Recently, To
Papa was named in the top one percent of the
best attractions worldwide and the Trip Visa twenty twenty five
Traveler's Choice Awards. The museum is also labeled the best
attraction in New Zealand and the fifth best attraction attraction
in the South Pacific. That's why I wanted to bring
(01:20):
Courtney into the studio and have a chat to her now,
because I can remember the city without Tapapa and it
was a different city.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
See, I moved here in the year two thousand, so
this is my twenty fifth year in Wellington, and so
I don't remember the city without to Papa. And for me,
as a person who spent most of their career in museums,
I don't but didn't grow up in a family that
went to museums. So for me to Papa is both
(01:50):
extraordinary and completely normal. And so it's only you know
when people say those things about, you know, not your
grandma's museum, and I'm like, well, Grandma's are pretty cool actually,
and they have good taste in museums. But well, you
tell me, Nick, what was Wellington like before to Papa
(02:11):
or before that moment, you.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Know, when Tapapa was built.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And I you know, you can't ever talk about what
happened with the museum, hotel and Chris Park and all
that stuff, you know, and the kudos that you've got
to give that man for allowing or to happen.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
And how I was about to say, I'm not sure
if you're allowed to say it on the radio, but
the Cahunes on that man.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you know you think about that,
and that's what Tapapa meant to me. And it also
suddenly gave us the start of not being the shorts
and long socks brigade. It gave us the coolness, you know,
so we are lucky.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
What do you know?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
What do you think the biggest achievements for Tapapa has
been to Wellington?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
To Wellington, I think I'm going to say two things.
I think PAPA has revolutionized and led a revolution in
the way that museums are just part of people's daily lives,
so that you don't need to feel like you're a
fancy person or a person with serious intent or a
(03:16):
person who's entitled to go to museums. That a museum
can be a place that you drop by, like Wellington
doesn't have a mall, for example. So many teenagers come
to Papa because it's this public, safe place that they
feel familiar with, that they can be out in the
(03:37):
open and it feels that social zone for them. So
I think to Papa has made museums into a social
place rather than strictly a place where you go to
come out a better person. And I think it's had
a massive economic and tourism impact. I think it has
created a tourism anchor for Wellington that can help all
(03:58):
sorts of other attractions be built off as well.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Have you ever asked the question or been given the
information of what percentage of tourists come to Wellington go
to to Papa.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Oh, I don't have that figure two hands.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
It's an interesting question.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah it is, and I know it. I know instinctively
it is a high number. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, I mean I'm still in that ink where it
has to be a special occasion for me to go
to to Papa.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
You see, I never want to think of it.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I wouldn't downgrade it into a situation where I think
it's a more or I actually go and have a
coffee there and bet someone there.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
You know, you're still looking for that special moment, that inspiration,
that that thing that weows you one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
And I can remember going and seeing one of the
what was it, what was the Yeah, one of the
one of the things that you had on there, and
I remember walking in the front door and going, oh,
I'm a bit lucky.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, the thing that gives you the shivers. Yeah, yeah,
I remember that when when we had the Terracotta Warriors exhibition,
you know, and you're face to face with something ancient
and or inspiring. And those summer exhibitions that we do
are all about trying to give New Zealanders those extraordinary
(05:13):
experiences that normally you would have to travel overseas in
order to have, so making them more local.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Do you think they're Wellingtonians?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And I've got the answer to this question, but I'm
going to ask you do you think Wellingtonians go enough?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I'm going to say I do, and I don't. I
think people go through often go through phases in their
museum going lives. So maybe you go when you're a
kid and you go with your parents, and then maybe
you might have a period in your life where you're
not a museum goer anymore. Then something changes. You've got kids,
you marry someone who's come from overseas, You've got a
(05:51):
new reason to engage again. And so I think we
have such loyal support from Wellingtonians, and just over winter
with reopening our art galleries again, we've seen a real
lift in repeat visitation from Wellingtonians. Because you need that
new content to make locals feel like there's like you
say a special reason to come. Would I like people
(06:13):
to come more? I think maybe there's more that more
to engage with, particularly when you think about our events
program as well, where you can you can bring your
kids to Royal New Zealand Ballet performances or MZSO performances,
our Tayko to Kapahacker in the middle of the year.
(06:35):
All of these things are free and available to people,
so it's more than just a museum. It is an
event space as well.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Talk about how big Gillipoli has been for me. I went,
me and Dosy Bagani, we're on this show and we
went to a preview before the day before it opened,
and I can remember not sleeping that well that night.
It was pretty Yeah, I mean mind blowing. I mean
mind blowing. And how long ago was that?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Twenty fourteen? I know, was that the last time Nick?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it was the last time I dropped someone off
the I'll tell you that story later.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
But but I mean, it's it's incredible and it's still incredible.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
It cannot be unadair estimated what their exhibition has done.
I think.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Couldn't stay there forever.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Forever is a long time, but forever is a long time.
I'm not nothing for I know, and then you want
to be like, yes, we're definitely going to stay married forever,
but forever is a long time. I can say twenty
thirty two. So the exhibition, oh, you know, for most people,
we've just we're just about to come out of our
(07:51):
first closure of Glipoli, so we've closed it down for
about eight weeks and we've been doing a thorough clean,
new lighting, a few new items in there. Richard Taylor
goes through from whit a workshop and tells us you
need to fix us, you need to fix that. We
run out of flies on that one.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
So we'll tell us about working with him.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Amazing. So I wasn't at Topapa when the exhibition was developed,
but I was actually just up in Auckland at a
conference with Richard and got to spend quite a lot
of time with him there. And like that guy is inspired,
He is inspired. He is I imagine hard taskmaster. So
(08:33):
the story he tells about Gillipoli is that he and
Rick Althorpe has kind of senior creative. They came up
with that idea within minutes. Within minutes, it just appeared
in his brain that they were going to tell the
story of this, you know, very complex military campaign with
all the complex human history inside of it through these
(08:56):
for anyone who hasn't been to Glipoli, and really please
come when we reopen. You walk through a series of
rooms that within each room there is either a single
massive figure about full times life size, or a group
of massive figures, and they are drawn from the campaign.
(09:17):
They are the actual soldiers, They are an actual nurse,
and they are captured in a moment in time, whether
that is firing a gun or crying over a letter
that you have received.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
And do you know the guy that's saligned with the
gun looking he.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Looks at you, He looks at you. Do you know
the clothing that they're wearing is hand woven so that
the fibers will be the right side, so that when
your eyes look at them, you believe the share scale
of these I always think of that movie Titanic. This
is New Zealand's Titanic. It is what these figures do
(09:54):
when you come body to body with them, is they
You are there with them, and it kind of cracks
you open and you are there in that moment feeling
their fear and their anguish and their comradeship before you
start to engage with the history, before you engage with
the label, because what.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Can other exhibitions learn from Gallipolis.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Has it changed you as to Papa.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yes, yes, I think it has. I think it has
not just it to Papa, but museums all around the world,
and Richard and were to Workshop now have a very
successful offshore business building museums and museum displays around the world.
That is like a economic export that's come off the
back of their work at Gallipoli. But I think Gallipoli
(10:42):
has made museums more happier to engage with what you
could call theater, to bring those elements of kind of
theater design so that you don't look at an object
and look at a label, look at an object and
look at a label as you go around, but you
you take something in almost like you're immersed within a
(11:04):
movie stage set. I think that's one of the changes.
And we're seeing this summer. For example, the exhibition that
we're bringing in on my head of marketing will have
my guts regards if I spill the beans on what
it is, so I might have to come back and
talk about it. But we are leaning into Come on,
(11:25):
we are leaning into that current real appetite for immersive experiences.
Take me to a place that transports me out of
the every day feed all of my senses. You know?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Is that almost going to being a cross between a
theme park and a museum?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Is that? Am I pushing that barrow too far?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
No?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
And you know that was something that got said winter
Papa opened. You know, it's the MTV of museums because
it was the nineties. Oh, it's a theme park, et cetera.
I think brilliant storytelling can happen almost anywhere, and if
it is a brilliant story that captures you know, like,
I'm not down on theme parks. I think people should
(12:09):
have incredible experiences available to them everywhere. And I'm yeah,
I just don't really do that highbrow lowbrow thing. I
don't think it serves us to judge people for not being,
you know, sufficiently.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
We have in our studio live talking to us the
CEO of Topapa, Courtney Johnston. I mean, the museum, like
everyone else, is going going through some hard times. I
mean the world is going through some hard times. The
museum statement of performance expectations for twenty twenty five twenty
(12:44):
six is forecasting a thirteen million dollar deficit after depreciation.
It follows an eight point one deficit for the museum
in twenty three to twenty four financial year. Yeah, you've
also dropped your visitor targets by about two hundred thousand
due to the softer tourist market. How are you planning
around these figures and how difficult does it make and
what does it make you change?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
We receive forty four million dollars a year from the government,
from the taxpayer, and I really respect that money, you know.
And then alongside that forty four million dollars every year,
we aim to make thirty eight million dollars ourselves and
that forms the entire operating budget of Tapapa. And I
think what I like about that is it keeps you
(13:29):
honest and it keeps you customer focused as well. So
we are I think, really lucky as a museum because
we were built to be commercially positive and to have
lots of different ways of supplementing our public funding so
that we can keep providing experiences and services to New Zealanders,
to Wellingtonians, to New Zealanders, and also to support New
(13:51):
Zealand culture going offshore as well. The Yeah, for every
business in Wellington, New Zealand, probably around the world, it
is tougher. At the moment. Wellington is a little feel
it we are. Yeah, yeah, Wellington is a little bit
slow with that rebuild of tourism, you know, with cruise
(14:13):
ship behavior and things like that. So what do you do?
You do a better job. You know, you focus on
incredible customer service. You make sure the food in your
cafe is great. You make sure that the exhibitions that
you're doing are really going to appeal to people, and
you watch every penny really closely. So that's what we're
(14:35):
doing at the moment.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Can I ask you a question.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
We did a whole hour and we we thought it
was going to really affect. In fact, I was actually
against it. I though thought it was a bad idea
to charge international tourist. I thought that it was going
to slow it down. And that's been really positive. Tell
us about that because I got it wrong.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah. So it's been fifty one weeks. Next week will
be our one year anniversary of bringing in a charge
for international visitors. And this is something that has been
talked about ever since PAPA was founded because it is
an obvious way of making money to ensure that New
Zealanders can always benefit from from the nation.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Will it always be free for New Zealanders?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
You think it will? Or you know I said before,
you can't predict forever. I am going to predict this
forever to Papa, you can put it on my gravestone
to Baba, will be free for New Zealanders forever. That
is the point of being a national museum for this country.
But charging international visitors a it is something that a
lot of our international visitors already expect from the countries
(15:35):
that they come from, and it helps us run the museum,
keep it fresh, keep new exhibitions coming in. It's an
important extra piece of funding that in the current climate,
we did need it.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
And it was quite a big amount, wasn't.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
It's about three million dollars in the first year.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
So it is a meaning what are your budgeting for?
What's your what's your what's your dream?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
My dream would be probably to bring that up to
about five million as we see tourism rebound as well.
You know, every every one of those dollars is a
dollar week and spend.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
You say that it's going to be it's going to
be free till the day that you're no longer than wherever.
What about the experience is like some of the big
things that you bring in, they are always going to
be charged for.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
There will always be a mix of things inside the
museum that are free and things that are charged in
order for us to bring them here to New Zealand
for people to experience, you know, And I think that's okay.
People put their money into things that they care about
and they want to experience. And actually I want things
that to Papa that people go, you know what that's
(16:42):
really worth twenty bucks? I actually really want to experience
that thing.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
We've only got a few minutes before your busy schedule
takes you away. But I could spend all day talking
to you. But let's talk about you time. Let's talk
about you personally. Right, you're a farm girl.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I am a farm girl.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
I mean, what the hell are.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
You doing running the biggest museum in New Zealand or
you know?
Speaker 4 (17:03):
You know so successfully?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
God, Oh it's truth. It still amazes me too.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
So I grew up on a dairy farm. We weren't
museum a museum going family. Although God bless my mother,
she took me to the public library every Friday night,
and I would fill sports bag up with books because
I was that kind of nerd. Even when I went
to New Plymouth Girls High School, grew up in Tartanaki,
(17:31):
went to New Plymouth Girls High School. Even then I
started studying. I did art history as a subject just
because when I was in third form, the last period
at school every Friday, we went back to our home
class and the class before that was art history, and
it was full of these incredibly glamorous seventh form girls,
and I was like, I want to grow up and
(17:52):
be like that. So I didn't really know what I
was doing. I was just copying the cool kids at school.
I got into museums because it connects you to people,
It tells stories. It's honestly not that different in some
way from the work that you do. If you're a
curious person, you want to understand people and you want
to share stories. Museums are a great place to work.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
And you started it to Papa as a greeter, as.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
A visitor host, I did, so I can do you
a tour of to Papa from the ground to the top.
I can tell you how the building is designed, the
history of it.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And officially, you'd probably be the only person that I've
ever interviewed that I couldn't beat up because you're You're
a martial arts girl too, aren't you.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
It is a little bit lapsed now, but yes, I
am a.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
A little bit lap so I could beat here maybe.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
But I'd still back myself. Nick. So, I'm a brown
belt and Brazilian jiu jitsu. The only secret to that
is I can't do anything standing up. I won't punch
you or kick you. I didn't want to do a
martial art that involved like the yelling thing that you
see in karate because I don't like raising my voice.
So jiujits so as it would be very entertaining for
your viewers if this did ever happen.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
It is a.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Ground based grappling or wrestling sport. No punching, no kicking.
It's all kind of like arm bars and joint locks
and choke holds. And yeah, I did it for ten
years and I do love it. I trained just around
the corner on College Street at a club called jsw Right.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Let's finish off with a question, what do you want
to see to Papa look like in the next two
or three years. And if you've got one message to
wellingtonian's about to Papa, what would it be?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Oh, Nick, I want it to be full of people.
I want it to be the most exciting place in Wellington,
if not New Zealand. And I want it to be
full of people. And I say to people, if you've
been curious about Tapapa, or if you haven't thought that
it's relevant to you, come and give us a go.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
When's Glipoli opened again?
Speaker 3 (19:56):
When we're back next week? I think I need to
double check that, but I reckon it's next week.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I think I need to go before you open it
to do the refresh show, because I went to the
first one.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Let's see what we can.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Oh gosh that was if ever I heard a no,
that was a no. Oh gosh. That was a nice
way of saying maybe maybe not Nick, Maybe it's.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
A nice way I'm saying. I don't I don't make
promises on behalf of my staff.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Thank you to Papa CEO Courtney Johnston. I mean it's
been delightful. Have you in the studio. Keep up the
good work and let's stay in touch with what's going
on in the future of to Papa.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Thanks so much, Nak, It's been an amazing conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Great For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen
live to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, we've been trying to get this young woman on
our show for a long time. She's an impressive person
and she's running an impressive organization. We welcome to Papa's CEO,
Courtney Johnston, and it's Courtney with a C and a
Johnston with a no.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
E on the end. Exactly. You've taken a lot of
restaurant bookings in your lifetime, haven't you.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Well, I'm the world's worst person at right of spelling
and writing people's names down and so, but I understand
with sports contracts that you've got to spell their names
right there you go.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
So often people call me the N with the D
in front of.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
It, I wouldn't dare to comment.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Let's talk about our National Museum to Papa. Recently, To
Papa was named in the top one percent of the
best attractions worldwide and the Trip Visa twenty twenty five
Traveler's Choice Awards. The museum is also labeled the best
attraction in New Zealand and the fifth best attraction attraction
in the South Pacific. That's why I wanted to bring
(01:20):
Courtney into the studio and have a chat to her now,
because I can remember the city without Tapapa and it
was a different city.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
See, I moved here in the year two thousand, so
this is my twenty fifth year in Wellington, and so
I don't remember the city without to Papa. And for me,
as a person who spent most of their career in museums,
I don't but didn't grow up in a family that
went to museums. So for me to Papa is both
(01:50):
extraordinary and completely normal. And so it's only you know
when people say those things about, you know, not your
grandma's museum, and I'm like, well, Grandma's are pretty cool actually,
and they have good taste in museums. But well, you
tell me, Nick, what was Wellington like before to Papa
(02:11):
or before that moment, you.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Know, when Tapapa was built.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And I you know, you can't ever talk about what
happened with the museum, hotel and Chris Park and all
that stuff, you know, and the kudos that you've got
to give that man for allowing or to happen.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
And how I was about to say, I'm not sure
if you're allowed to say it on the radio, but
the Cahunes on that man.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you know you think about that,
and that's what Tapapa meant to me. And it also
suddenly gave us the start of not being the shorts
and long socks brigade. It gave us the coolness, you know,
so we are lucky.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
What do you know?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
What do you think the biggest achievements for Tapapa has
been to Wellington?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
To Wellington, I think I'm going to say two things.
I think PAPA has revolutionized and led a revolution in
the way that museums are just part of people's daily lives,
so that you don't need to feel like you're a
fancy person or a person with serious intent or a
(03:16):
person who's entitled to go to museums. That a museum
can be a place that you drop by, like Wellington
doesn't have a mall, for example. So many teenagers come
to Papa because it's this public, safe place that they
feel familiar with, that they can be out in the
(03:37):
open and it feels that social zone for them. So
I think to Papa has made museums into a social
place rather than strictly a place where you go to
come out a better person. And I think it's had
a massive economic and tourism impact. I think it has
created a tourism anchor for Wellington that can help all
(03:58):
sorts of other attractions be built off as well.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Have you ever asked the question or been given the
information of what percentage of tourists come to Wellington go
to to Papa.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Oh, I don't have that figure two hands.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
It's an interesting question.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah it is, and I know it. I know instinctively
it is a high number. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, I mean I'm still in that ink where it
has to be a special occasion for me to go
to to Papa.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
You see, I never want to think of it.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I wouldn't downgrade it into a situation where I think
it's a more or I actually go and have a
coffee there and bet someone there.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
You know, you're still looking for that special moment, that inspiration,
that that thing that weows you one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
And I can remember going and seeing one of the
what was it, what was the Yeah, one of the
one of the things that you had on there, and
I remember walking in the front door and going, oh,
I'm a bit lucky.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, the thing that gives you the shivers. Yeah, yeah,
I remember that when when we had the Terracotta Warriors exhibition,
you know, and you're face to face with something ancient
and or inspiring. And those summer exhibitions that we do
are all about trying to give New Zealanders those extraordinary
(05:13):
experiences that normally you would have to travel overseas in
order to have, so making them more local.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Do you think they're Wellingtonians?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And I've got the answer to this question, but I'm
going to ask you do you think Wellingtonians go enough?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I'm going to say I do, and I don't. I
think people go through often go through phases in their
museum going lives. So maybe you go when you're a
kid and you go with your parents, and then maybe
you might have a period in your life where you're
not a museum goer anymore. Then something changes. You've got kids,
you marry someone who's come from overseas, You've got a
(05:51):
new reason to engage again. And so I think we
have such loyal support from Wellingtonians, and just over winter
with reopening our art galleries again, we've seen a real
lift in repeat visitation from Wellingtonians. Because you need that
new content to make locals feel like there's like you
say a special reason to come. Would I like people
(06:13):
to come more? I think maybe there's more that more
to engage with, particularly when you think about our events
program as well, where you can you can bring your
kids to Royal New Zealand Ballet performances or MZSO performances,
our Tayko to Kapahacker in the middle of the year.
(06:35):
All of these things are free and available to people,
so it's more than just a museum. It is an
event space as well.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Talk about how big Gillipoli has been for me. I went,
me and Dosy Bagani, we're on this show and we
went to a preview before the day before it opened,
and I can remember not sleeping that well that night.
It was pretty Yeah, I mean mind blowing. I mean
mind blowing. And how long ago was that?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Twenty fourteen? I know, was that the last time Nick?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it was the last time I dropped someone off
the I'll tell you that story later.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
But but I mean, it's it's incredible and it's still incredible.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
It cannot be unadair estimated what their exhibition has done.
I think.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Couldn't stay there forever.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Forever is a long time, but forever is a long time.
I'm not nothing for I know, and then you want
to be like, yes, we're definitely going to stay married forever,
but forever is a long time. I can say twenty
thirty two. So the exhibition, oh, you know, for most people,
we've just we're just about to come out of our
(07:51):
first closure of Glipoli, so we've closed it down for
about eight weeks and we've been doing a thorough clean,
new lighting, a few new items in there. Richard Taylor
goes through from whit a workshop and tells us you
need to fix us, you need to fix that. We
run out of flies on that one.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
So we'll tell us about working with him.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Amazing. So I wasn't at Topapa when the exhibition was developed,
but I was actually just up in Auckland at a
conference with Richard and got to spend quite a lot
of time with him there. And like that guy is inspired,
He is inspired. He is I imagine hard taskmaster. So
(08:33):
the story he tells about Gillipoli is that he and
Rick Althorpe has kind of senior creative. They came up
with that idea within minutes. Within minutes, it just appeared
in his brain that they were going to tell the
story of this, you know, very complex military campaign with
all the complex human history inside of it through these
(08:56):
for anyone who hasn't been to Glipoli, and really please
come when we reopen. You walk through a series of
rooms that within each room there is either a single
massive figure about full times life size, or a group
of massive figures, and they are drawn from the campaign.
(09:17):
They are the actual soldiers, They are an actual nurse,
and they are captured in a moment in time, whether
that is firing a gun or crying over a letter
that you have received.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
And do you know the guy that's saligned with the
gun looking he.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Looks at you, He looks at you. Do you know
the clothing that they're wearing is hand woven so that
the fibers will be the right side, so that when
your eyes look at them, you believe the share scale
of these I always think of that movie Titanic. This
is New Zealand's Titanic. It is what these figures do
(09:54):
when you come body to body with them, is they
You are there with them, and it kind of cracks
you open and you are there in that moment feeling
their fear and their anguish and their comradeship before you
start to engage with the history, before you engage with
the label, because what.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Can other exhibitions learn from Gallipolis.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Has it changed you as to Papa.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yes, yes, I think it has. I think it has
not just it to Papa, but museums all around the world,
and Richard and were to Workshop now have a very
successful offshore business building museums and museum displays around the world.
That is like a economic export that's come off the
back of their work at Gallipoli. But I think Gallipoli
(10:42):
has made museums more happier to engage with what you
could call theater, to bring those elements of kind of
theater design so that you don't look at an object
and look at a label, look at an object and
look at a label as you go around, but you
you take something in almost like you're immersed within a
(11:04):
movie stage set. I think that's one of the changes.
And we're seeing this summer. For example, the exhibition that
we're bringing in on my head of marketing will have
my guts regards if I spill the beans on what
it is, so I might have to come back and
talk about it. But we are leaning into Come on,
(11:25):
we are leaning into that current real appetite for immersive experiences.
Take me to a place that transports me out of
the every day feed all of my senses. You know?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Is that almost going to being a cross between a
theme park and a museum?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Is that? Am I pushing that barrow too far?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
No?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
And you know that was something that got said winter
Papa opened. You know, it's the MTV of museums because
it was the nineties. Oh, it's a theme park, et cetera.
I think brilliant storytelling can happen almost anywhere, and if
it is a brilliant story that captures you know, like,
I'm not down on theme parks. I think people should
(12:09):
have incredible experiences available to them everywhere. And I'm yeah,
I just don't really do that highbrow lowbrow thing. I
don't think it serves us to judge people for not being,
you know, sufficiently.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
We have in our studio live talking to us the
CEO of Topapa, Courtney Johnston. I mean, the museum, like
everyone else, is going going through some hard times. I
mean the world is going through some hard times. The
museum statement of performance expectations for twenty twenty five twenty
(12:44):
six is forecasting a thirteen million dollar deficit after depreciation.
It follows an eight point one deficit for the museum
in twenty three to twenty four financial year. Yeah, you've
also dropped your visitor targets by about two hundred thousand
due to the softer tourist market. How are you planning
around these figures and how difficult does it make and
what does it make you change?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
We receive forty four million dollars a year from the government,
from the taxpayer, and I really respect that money, you know.
And then alongside that forty four million dollars every year,
we aim to make thirty eight million dollars ourselves and
that forms the entire operating budget of Tapapa. And I
think what I like about that is it keeps you
(13:29):
honest and it keeps you customer focused as well. So
we are I think, really lucky as a museum because
we were built to be commercially positive and to have
lots of different ways of supplementing our public funding so
that we can keep providing experiences and services to New Zealanders,
to Wellingtonians, to New Zealanders, and also to support New
(13:51):
Zealand culture going offshore as well. The Yeah, for every
business in Wellington, New Zealand, probably around the world, it
is tougher. At the moment. Wellington is a little feel
it we are. Yeah, yeah, Wellington is a little bit
slow with that rebuild of tourism, you know, with cruise
(14:13):
ship behavior and things like that. So what do you do?
You do a better job. You know, you focus on
incredible customer service. You make sure the food in your
cafe is great. You make sure that the exhibitions that
you're doing are really going to appeal to people, and
you watch every penny really closely. So that's what we're
(14:35):
doing at the moment.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Can I ask you a question.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
We did a whole hour and we we thought it
was going to really affect. In fact, I was actually
against it. I though thought it was a bad idea
to charge international tourist. I thought that it was going
to slow it down. And that's been really positive. Tell
us about that because I got it wrong.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah. So it's been fifty one weeks. Next week will
be our one year anniversary of bringing in a charge
for international visitors. And this is something that has been
talked about ever since PAPA was founded because it is
an obvious way of making money to ensure that New
Zealanders can always benefit from from the nation.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Will it always be free for New Zealanders?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
You think it will? Or you know I said before,
you can't predict forever. I am going to predict this
forever to Papa, you can put it on my gravestone
to Baba, will be free for New Zealanders forever. That
is the point of being a national museum for this country.
But charging international visitors a it is something that a
lot of our international visitors already expect from the countries
(15:35):
that they come from, and it helps us run the museum,
keep it fresh, keep new exhibitions coming in. It's an
important extra piece of funding that in the current climate,
we did need it.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
And it was quite a big amount, wasn't.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
It's about three million dollars in the first year.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
So it is a meaning what are your budgeting for?
What's your what's your what's your dream?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
My dream would be probably to bring that up to
about five million as we see tourism rebound as well.
You know, every every one of those dollars is a
dollar week and spend.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
You say that it's going to be it's going to
be free till the day that you're no longer than wherever.
What about the experience is like some of the big
things that you bring in, they are always going to
be charged for.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
There will always be a mix of things inside the
museum that are free and things that are charged in
order for us to bring them here to New Zealand
for people to experience, you know, And I think that's okay.
People put their money into things that they care about
and they want to experience. And actually I want things
that to Papa that people go, you know what that's
(16:42):
really worth twenty bucks? I actually really want to experience
that thing.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
We've only got a few minutes before your busy schedule
takes you away. But I could spend all day talking
to you. But let's talk about you time. Let's talk
about you personally. Right, you're a farm girl.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I am a farm girl.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
I mean, what the hell are.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
You doing running the biggest museum in New Zealand or
you know?
Speaker 4 (17:03):
You know so successfully?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
God, Oh it's truth. It still amazes me too.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
So I grew up on a dairy farm. We weren't
museum a museum going family. Although God bless my mother,
she took me to the public library every Friday night,
and I would fill sports bag up with books because
I was that kind of nerd. Even when I went
to New Plymouth Girls High School, grew up in Tartanaki,
(17:31):
went to New Plymouth Girls High School. Even then I
started studying. I did art history as a subject just
because when I was in third form, the last period
at school every Friday, we went back to our home
class and the class before that was art history, and
it was full of these incredibly glamorous seventh form girls,
and I was like, I want to grow up and
(17:52):
be like that. So I didn't really know what I
was doing. I was just copying the cool kids at school.
I got into museums because it connects you to people,
It tells stories. It's honestly not that different in some
way from the work that you do. If you're a
curious person, you want to understand people and you want
to share stories. Museums are a great place to work.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
And you started it to Papa as a greeter, as.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
A visitor host, I did, so I can do you
a tour of to Papa from the ground to the top.
I can tell you how the building is designed, the
history of it.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And officially, you'd probably be the only person that I've
ever interviewed that I couldn't beat up because you're You're
a martial arts girl too, aren't you.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
It is a little bit lapsed now, but yes, I
am a.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
A little bit lap so I could beat here maybe.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
But I'd still back myself. Nick. So, I'm a brown
belt and Brazilian jiu jitsu. The only secret to that
is I can't do anything standing up. I won't punch
you or kick you. I didn't want to do a
martial art that involved like the yelling thing that you
see in karate because I don't like raising my voice.
So jiujits so as it would be very entertaining for
your viewers if this did ever happen.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
It is a.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Ground based grappling or wrestling sport. No punching, no kicking.
It's all kind of like arm bars and joint locks
and choke holds. And yeah, I did it for ten
years and I do love it. I trained just around
the corner on College Street at a club called jsw Right.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Let's finish off with a question, what do you want
to see to Papa look like in the next two
or three years. And if you've got one message to
wellingtonian's about to Papa, what would it be?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Oh, Nick, I want it to be full of people.
I want it to be the most exciting place in Wellington,
if not New Zealand. And I want it to be
full of people. And I say to people, if you've
been curious about Tapapa, or if you haven't thought that
it's relevant to you, come and give us a go.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
When's Glipoli opened again?
Speaker 3 (19:56):
When we're back next week? I think I need to
double check that, but I reckon it's next week.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I think I need to go before you open it
to do the refresh show, because I went to the
first one.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Let's see what we can.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Oh gosh that was if ever I heard a no,
that was a no. Oh gosh. That was a nice
way of saying maybe maybe not Nick, Maybe it's.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
A nice way I'm saying. I don't I don't make
promises on behalf of my staff.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Thank you to Papa CEO Courtney Johnston. I mean it's
been delightful. Have you in the studio. Keep up the
good work and let's stay in touch with what's going
on in the future of to Papa.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Thanks so much, Nak, It's been an amazing conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Great For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen
live to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.