Slavery, Mass Murder and the Birth of American Policing

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:11):
wherever you get your podcast Welcome to Behind the Police,
a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone, I'm Robert Evans,
host of Behind the Bastards, which is normally a show
about the worst people in all of history, and I

(01:31):
guess it's still is. But but recent world events, UM
have compelled us to create a special mini series, Behind
the Police, where we are going to be giving a
detailed history of American policing, all the good, the bad,
and mostly mostly the bad and the ugly. It's it's
mostly bad, uh and and mostly ugly. UM and UH.

(01:56):
In order to help me give this story and tell
it to the world, my guest today and for the
next couple of weeks UH is Jason Petty, better known
as Propaganda Jason. You are a hip hop artist, UM
and a podcast host UM. And yeah, how are you doing? Man?
Hey man? You know West West and the world don't fire.

(02:18):
But NASCAR stopped flying Confederate flags. So that's a thing,
you know what I'm saying. Yeah, it's in a weird
moment right now. I just like like snag a picture
of and just and like send it to yourself in
two thousand eighteen and go what stupid director wrote this storyline?

(02:38):
You know, it's it's wild, and like the wildest thing
about it is that I think we were all at
this point of getting like just completely exhausted by like
this constant parade of like bad news and like political
malfeasance and like horrible things being done by people in power,
and nobody was able to get on the same page
about really anything. Um. And then all of a sudden,

(03:01):
you know, um, after the Minneapolis police murdered George Floyd
in that video came out for like the first time
in a long time, almost everyone, like most people got
broadly onto the same page. Like, I mean, we weren't
even on the same page about a virus. Like it's
like some some that I'll give no ships about what

(03:24):
political stance you are gonna kill you either way. We
couldn't even agree on net Yeah, but then I was
like we could agree that black lives matter for real.
That's what we finally agree it on. Yeah, it's good,
broadly good. Like I'm kind of I'm recording this from
outside of the what will surely probably not exist by
the time this airs, but was briefly the the the

(03:47):
Seattle the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. I went to check
that out for a couple of days. Yes, it's been wild.
I wish you could talk to me a little more
about like there's got to be some sort of version
of behind the bastards that's that is the Northwest. Yeah,
it's like it's definitely a tale of two cities up there. Yeah. Yeah,

(04:09):
I've been getting tear gassed in Portland for days, and
they were in Seattle too, but then they succeeded in
getting their police to like pull out of a precinct um,
which is wild and now the cops are back, so
it didn't last. But like, yeah, and you've been on
the ground in Los Angeles tending some of the protests,
if I'm not mistaken, Yeah, how have you felt about that? Dude?

(04:30):
It's like obviously the sheer volume I mean because I
was here for the you know, for the l A riots,
you know what I'm saying. So the sheer volume of people,
the amount of of um sustained energy has been like
maybe something's different, you know what I'm saying. Um, the
amount of diversity in the streets has been like yo,

(04:53):
maybe I guess after having to like take it to
the streets since the day after Trump was a did
you know what I'm saying? From the woman's marts all
the way to the school shootings, to the to the climate,
to the like there's no to the the damn um
uh Muslim band. It's just like at some point we
were just like, Okay, enough is a damn enough um.

(05:17):
But I like to be fully transparent. I think I
echo like the sounds of of of people who've been
in like justice work for a while, where like your
arms are still kind of folded on the side, like Okay,
are you gonna be here next week? Yeah? You know
what I'm saying. It's like you like this song, or
you're gonna stay for the concert, like this a long concert,
you feel me? Yeah? Yeah, it's a long And I

(05:40):
guess that's kind of why we're doing you know. Yeah,
after like two weeks almost in the streets reporting on that,
I kind of felt like the thing to do was
to try to um because I guess it's I think
it's wrong to say that we're all on the same page.
We're all reading the same book, and the book is titled, uh,
the police are murdering a whole ton of black people,
um and also doing a bunch of other messed up stuff.

(06:02):
And it feels like for a lot of folks the
first time they opened that book was because they they
went out to a protest and they got tear guests
and some we were like confronted by the violence of
American policing. Um, So I think now is a good
time to go into a really deep history of American
policing and let people know like where all this came from,

(06:24):
because this didn't Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's so there's I
and I and I know what I love about your show.
It is I think why it reigned so true with me.
It was like it's this stuff that like we we
might be looking at the same dumpster fire, but I'm
looking at it with a hundred years of history to
know like I actually know what I'm looking at, you

(06:44):
know what I'm saying. And like y'all think I'm making
this ship up, Like I'm not, Like I swear to you,
I'm not making this up. Like just learn more and
you'll stare at this dumpter fire like I am. Yeah,
so let's stare at the dumpster fire. Um and and
and really just yeah, I'll get into the story. Um.

(07:06):
As a side note, your camera is phenomenal, Like what's
up with this depth of feel on your That's great, man,
it's like blurry in the back, like look at this.
Yeah yeah, that's so people don't see all of my
all of my illegal artwork that's behind me. Yeah yeah yeah,
very erotic. Yeah you see my bed here and by

(07:31):
magic I mean snoring and my daughter kicking me and
my wife in our roofs. Anyway, yeah yeah yeah, so,
um yeah, I guess let's get into it. So obviously,
the idea of law of their being laws that people
could break and be punished, that's existed for a while.
We all remember hearing about hammer Abi's code and stuff
like back in back in school. Um, but throughout history,

(07:54):
a surprising amount of society is probably most of them
have lacked anything that we would recognize as like a
police force and like an organized and kind of a
modern sense of the word. Like a lot of times
you'd have like the you know, you'd have a military
that would enforce some rules for like the king or whoever,
but you didn't have like beat cops rolling around, you know,
scanning neighborhoods. Now, the ancient Egyptians had something that might

(08:16):
be seen as kind of a predecessor to the police.
It was a small, dedicated force regarding the tombs of
the wealthy as well as their businesses. Um, which will
be something of a pattern throughout the episode. Convinced everything.
Let's just gonna that's the pattern anyway going, including policing
for the police. Well you can't, they can't. Yeah, yeah,

(08:38):
it's not all writing. Yes, um. So, some ancient Greek
city states, including Athens, had what you might call a
proto police force um as well. And in Athens this
force was kind of geared towards protecting markets and keeping
an eye on untrustworthy foreigners. So it's a little bit like,
you know, a mix between normal police and ice. Um. Now,

(08:59):
this was not considered to be an honorable job, as
historian P. K. Bailey noted in the ninety lecture quote,
even in the enlightened democracy of Athens in the fifth
century BC, no free citizen was prepared to serve in
that capacity, and such police force as there was, consisted
of foreigners with the status of slaves who were the
property of the states in Greece. Generally, very few of

(09:19):
the states seem to have made any provision at all
so far as is known for the ordinary policing of
their cities, though the state of Sparta certainly had a
very efficient system of secret police. This is really interesting
to me, especially because of what comes next. So Sparta
really seems to be like some of the first police
that are very similar. You can draw a direct line

(09:42):
from the Spartan secret police to the origins of American policing,
which we're gonna we're gonna get to it a little bit,
because the secret police of Sparta existed for one purpose
and one purpose only, and it was to clamp down
on any hint of rebellion from the vast majority of
the nation's populace see only about one in seven. And
Spartans were like the guys from three hundred, right that

(10:02):
everybody knows, like with the with the abs and the
and the spears. The vast majority of the population were helots.
They were slaves, basically they were they were slaves. They
were just straight up slaves. Like it was a slave
empire Sparta was. The vast majority of people in the
country were slaves, and the Spartan like leadership and the
Spartan like citizens spent all of their time terrified of
slave rebellions. That's why the Spartan army didn't actually leave

(10:25):
the country all that often because like they'd get up risen. Yeah.
So they had all these slaves and they had to
like clamp down on them, and they established a secret
policing force called the Crypteia, which was made up of
young men who had just finished the basics of their
military terry training. So once a year, Sparta would elect
a council of five e force or leaders, and as

(10:45):
part of a ritual, these forms would begin their term
by declaring war on the Helot population. They did this
every year, like every year we declare war on our slaves.
So the Spartans had crips, is what you're telling me.
They did? They did, Yeah, god crypta yeah, the crypt
So they had crypt So that's sto. Was the boys
in Blue. I'm telling you, man, Like this stuff has

(11:06):
been going on for a long time, the Otter boys
in Blue. And it was trying to keep the slaves.
They was trying to keep the slaves from rebelling. Everybody
tucked that back in. Tuck that away for a second.
Keep that in your head, Keep that in your head.
So every year these elected leaders, you know, formally declare
war on the Helots and it's something of like a
ritual like to, and this ritual is based around like

(11:28):
keeping them from rebelling. So the Cryptana would be sent
out to wander barefoot, armed with knives into the countryside,
and they would seek out the strongest and the smartest
of the Helots their slaves, and they would murder them
in the night, collect the population of any potential leaders.
That like, every year we go out, we find the
smart ones, and we kill them so that they can't
rise up against us. How does he fishing? Y'all telling

(11:50):
me this is the pinnacle Western civilization, that's all we're
trying to be, Okay, got it? It does make it
kind of appropriate when you could a lot of American
police officers were like spartan helmet patches. Now it's like, okay,
a little on the nose. Yeah. Now, I should note

(12:14):
here that there's actually there is quite a lot of
historical debate about the Cryptia. Some scholars agree with defining
them as a secret police, as a force to keep
the Helots in line through regular murder. Victor Davis Hansen,
who's a pretty prominent like pop historian, compares them to
the Gestapo, but other historians will argue that the Cryptia
were less of like a policing force and more of
a guerrilla military unit and auxiliary to the regular Spartan

(12:36):
military that's sort of um also acted as kind of
an advanced training program designed to blood new warriors by
like giving them easy kills to help them get over
any hesitation they might have to do violence. And I
don't think these two views are necessarily in conflict. The
Kryptaia seemed to have been like a dedicated guerilla armyment
to suppress descent against the ruling class by doing violence
to the impoverished majority who produced all of Sparta's value.

(12:58):
In this they fulfilled a not very different from a
lot of police forces in Western history. He can't make
this stuff up, man, because you can't. We can't make
this up. It's I made myself today. I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna do a longer meditation, I'm gonna do some yoga.

(13:21):
I am going to prepare myself for the amount of
things you've ben to tail me right now. And none
of it worked, because I still picked a fight with
my wife today. It was like, I'm sorry, babe, it's
we're about to talk about the ancient police. Okay, So
I'm sorry, but and for the record, fuck the ancient police,

(13:43):
like you know, ancient w a like you feel. The
Roman Republic didn't have any kind of like formal national
police force for most of its history. In Rome, which
is like the biggest city in the ancient world, for
most of the time that it was like kind of
the center of the world, lacked anything that we would

(14:03):
describe as like police. As Rome grew to become the
largest city and you know It's era, crime became an
increasing problem. The wealthy were able to use vast networks
of clients. Romans had this weird system whereby like if
you were rich, you gave money to a bunch of
people who had less, and they all had to like
kind of have your back. Like everybody had a posse
in ancient that's the way to look at like every Yeah,

(14:25):
everybody had like a big squad um. And so the
wealthy were able to use these big squads to like,
you know, defend themselves from aggression and murder their political enemies,
protect them in the streets and stuff. Um. Meanwhile, organized
criminals and gangs did basically the same thing, and there
wasn't really a big difference between like the rich and
their squads and like criminal gangs. They were kind of
the same thing. Um. Now, victims of crimes had to

(14:48):
either get revenged themselves or whip up a mob of
their fellow citizens to help them in this task. There
was a lot of whipping up of mobs in ancient Rome. Um, Yeah,
why don't I I could just it just makes it
just it just tracks like that just tracks so well.
You know. Yeah, we've always been the same species. Wait,

(15:09):
the same we are the same. But one of the
best my history professor in college, one of the best
thing he said to me was like, if you want
to know what happened in history, thing about what you
would do, it's just us, then what would you do?
It's history is us them? Yeah, And in ancient room,
like the kind of graffiti networks they had really did

(15:29):
act a lot like social media does to the extent
that like kind of famous and powerful people would use
like graffiti to get like shiploads like to to kind
of do the same thing that like people who get
piste off online and have a following can do like
like but with a literal mob as opposed to I'm
literally cancel you ancient style yeah, I'm gonna cancel you
by having four hundred dudes stab you repeatedly. We talk

(15:54):
about the government, mean it was, it was just kind
of everyone. Yeah. Uh. Seneca, a Roman philosopher in this period,
described street life in Rome this way. Some things will
be thrown at you, some will hit you, um, which
you know. Yeah, Rome's first emperor, august Us, when like

(16:16):
the whole republic thing ended, he established what's generally recognized
as the city's first police force. And it would be
fairer to describe them as like a fire department that
also did some policing. Um. They were called the vigils um,
and they stood watch at night and mainly kind of
looked out for fires and attempted to stop the city
from burning down because that was like a huge problem
in Rome. And the vigils were armed though, and they

(16:37):
were drilled in a similar way to soldiers. You know,
they used artillery to shoot dampening materials onto fires. But
they also had the right to enforce laws and had
the right to enter private homes to capture thieves, returned
runaway slaves, and generally insure order. Um. So kind of
like a fire department mixed with the police force um
and this system didn't really spread widely throughout the Roman Empire,
but broadly similar systems were established in a number of

(17:00):
European cities intermittently over the centuries. The night watchman was
kind of the most common way that this would this
would wind up happening. And these were just, you know,
in most of Europe, members of the community who like
would rotate through the job of defending their town or
city from external threats like invaders and internal threats like fire.
Their primary job was to give alarm to kind of

(17:21):
get like everybody together so that they could deal with
whatever problem, you know, happened in the night. And most
of what we today would recognize as law enforcement was
handled by citizens watching over their own communities. The English
called this kin police, as it was generally seen as
the responsibility of individual families to watch out foreign police
their family members. Right, you know, there's not nothing centralized

(17:42):
really in a lot of this period, you know, the
Middle Ages and ship whatever you wanna call it. Yeah,
so it starting to yeah, yeah, yeah, like watch your people. Yeah,
hey man, get your boy, get your boy. Whose man's
is this? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I love it. Yeah,
it makes sense, Yeah, it kind of does. Yeah. Uh So,
starting in the Middle Ages, like kind of the Late

(18:03):
Middle Ages, English communities began to develop something called the
frank pledge system. Now, this was a structure by which
small groups of men could enforce the law in communities,
and it was based around tin man groups called tithings,
which were themselves grouped into hundreds and then shires, which
were similar to modern counties. So if you wondering where
like the lord of the rings, why they called the
shire that was like an old English word for a county. Yeah.

(18:24):
Now the person who was in charge, yeah, yeah, that's so,
the person who was in charge of all of the
different tithings, those tin man groups in a shire was
called the shire reeve. And that's where the word sheriff
comes from. Is like the head of this like shire
wild kind of community protection group, the shire reef, the
shaff And that's why the sheriff's run the county exactly exactly. Yeah,

(18:48):
so that's where that comes back to. So yeah, it
makes sense. Yeah, and so far we're like this isn't
something you can really like obviously, like the Spartan police
is terrible, but like this makes sense, Like, yeah, you
take care of your community, like everybody kind of run,
rotates through it, share, Yeah, hard to be angry at it.
Individuals within tithings were expected to apprehend criminals and bring

(19:09):
them to court, and shire Reeves oversaw their work. When
Europeans began, you know, genociding and conquering North America, they
brought variants of this system and other kind of similar
systems developed in other parts of Europe with them. Policing
in you know, the colonies which you know, we're broadly
referring to like mainly North America here, Like I'm not
really I don't have the time to like talk about
like what went on in South America, Central America. We're

(19:31):
talking about like kind of the particularly the English speaking
colonies that started on the East Coast. Um Policing in
those colonies fell into two broad categories, known to historians
as the Watch and the big stick. And I'm going
to quote next from a paper on the history of
US policing by Dr Gary Potter of Eastern Kentucky University. Quote.

(19:52):
The Watch system was composed of community volunteers whose primary
duty was to warn of impending danger. Boston created a
night Watch in sixteen thirty six New York and sixteen
fifty eight in Philadelphia, and sev undred. The night Watch
was not a particularly effective crime control device. Watchman often
slept or drank on duty. Well, the watch was theoretically voluntary,
many volunteers were simply attempting to evade military service, were conscripts,

(20:15):
forced into service by their talent, were performing watch duties
as a form of punishment. And I have to say again,
last night, I was kind of hanging out in the
Autonomous Zone and I volunteered to do a shift on
the night Watch, and I was definitely drinking. You know.
We we look in in the hood, you know again,

(20:37):
like the part we built it's called apology. And one
of the things is like I just feel like, Okay,
no matter how unique our experiences, like you said, we're
kind of we're still all the same species. Right. So
when we talk about like, um neighborhood pigeons, right, I mean,
there's there's there's a there's a misogynistic version of that.

(20:59):
And then they the other part that we would call
the pigeon stool, which is like the guy who's supposed
to sit at the edge of the street to make
sure to see if the cops are coming. Right. So
that's your pigeon stool, right, and he's drunk all the time.
He's drunk, like he falling asleep, and it's just so.

(21:19):
And the hope is to do that because it's the
easiest because it's odds are nobody coming, you know, So
you could just sit over there and just kind of
like he's trying to holler at girls like, you know,
it's just just on the one off chance that the
police actually come around. I mean, that's your life. But

(21:40):
most of the time that's not gonna happen. Yeah, just
sit there and drinking, smoking, Yeah, keep an eye on things,
but not all that. Make sure everybody. Just make sure
mama not coming, you know. So these kind of watch
systems that started, you know, hitting you know, the colonized
Northeast were more similar to the pseudo police system that

(22:02):
you saw in ancient Athens than anything else. Um, and
you know, kind of the the other side of this
was the big stick system. And this was the first
real example of for profit policing. We're not gonna go
into tremendous detail about it in this episode. We're going
to talk about it a lot more in our next episode,
but I'm gonna give an overview here. So in a
you know, we're when we're talking about the colonies, we're
talking about a very unregulated market for law enforcement in

(22:25):
a lot of ways. You know, there's not an organized,
centralized police, but there are merchants who have a lot
of property, and those merchants want to make sure their
property doesn't get stolen um, either when it's in transit
or when it's in a shop. And so you know,
they have they have constables in these towns, and constables
are either appointed, um kind of in like a rotating basis,
so like you do your your brief period of time

(22:45):
as constable, or you're elected to be constable. It was
kind of they did it a couple of different ways. Um.
And as a general rule, because constables weren't really paid, um, like,
they had to develop services that they would sort of
sell to be ble in order to make the job worthwhile.
So sometimes they acted acted as land surveyors. They would
verify the accuracy of scales, but they would also get

(23:06):
paid directly by the merchants they were protecting. And so
as a general rule, these constables were really just hired
muscle for the business leaders in these communities. Um, and
they would be paid by the people. Um. You know,
they weren't being paid by the state to enforce justice.
They were being paid by people with money to enforce debts,
to punish theft, and to even intimidate rival business owners

(23:28):
right like that. Yeah they're good, they're hired. Yeah. Um
and obviously uh as you caught by calling them hired goons.
This was not seen as an honorable job. People don't
really want to be a constable, right like, there was
no blue lives like back the yeah so. Historian Gary

(23:50):
Potter notes that constables and night watch officers quote didn't
want to wear badges because these guys had bad reputations
to begin with, and they didn't want to be identified
as people that other people didn't like. There was a
strong resistance with early law enforcement of being identified as
law enforcement because nobody liked you. Now, some towns in

(24:10):
colonial North America made service in the watch compulsory. Rich
people tended to pay poor people to take their shifts
for them, and Potter notes that these substitutes were usually
quote a criminal or a community thug. Yeah. Yeah again,
it all tracks yeah, that's yeah. Yeah. In eighteen twenty nine,

(24:32):
back over in England, Sir Robert Peel, who was the
Home Secretary of England, introduced the Bill for Improving the
Police in and in and Near the Metropolis. Now. The
goal of this was to take the air set system
of watchmen and the like and formalize them into a
real police force. And the London Metropolitan Police are generally
recognized to be the very first modern police department in history.

(24:53):
Um And Peel he's an interesting guy. He felt that
the job of police should be to prevent crime rather
than to punish it, because that's kind of what you know,
all these constables something got stolen, you like you'd get
paid to go like funk up the person who stole it, right,
But like they weren't really preventing crimes. So Peele was like,
what if we tried to stop crimes? Um, And he
felt the best way to achieve that goal was with
regular visible patrols of officers from a formal centralized apartment

(25:17):
with uniforms and ranks and a clear physical headquarters so
that people like new those aren't just dudes, like those
are the police and they're like a part of the
state now. Peel felt that it was critical that only calm,
even tempered citizens should be police officers. He felt again,
yeah what I thought thought, Yeah, yeah, that one didn't

(25:38):
really spread. Um. I don't know much about the London police,
but it didn't make it across the pond. It's just
there's there's a few things that they threw out the
baby with the bathwater in this situation. I get you
didn't want to have a you don't want to have
a king anymore, you know, you know, like the t
I get it, but like maybe having a calm police
voice wasn't a bad idea. Took part of the magna carta.
He was like, yo, it is that this kind of

(26:00):
seems like a good idea. Maybe YE should have taken
that one too. Yeah, And I did recently watch like again,
the London police have done a lot of messed up
stuff too, even with some of the recent protests. But
I did watch that when they threw the statue of
that slaveholder into the bay in Bristol, um into the channel. Um,
I watched an interview with like the local constable or whatever.
He was, like the local police chief type guy in Bristol,

(26:22):
because he was being asked by the news like why
he didn't stop it, and his answer was basically like, well,
you know, I'm a cop, so obviously I'm not okay
with property destruction. But we had a choice to, like, like,
our choice was to either let it happen or like
basically funk up people to protect the statue. And I
felt like that would be bad for community trusting the police.
Pretty reasonable attitude, taking on your feet, man, like you

(26:45):
feel me, like yeah, and he's like, what do I
care about the statue? You know? So um yeah. Peel
had some other ideas too. Again, he felt that like
police needed uniforms with badges that had visible display numbers.
So he was the idea like police should have matge
numbers that you can identify. If you're encounter a police officer,
you can identify them. He also felt that police should

(27:06):
not carry firearms, and again that's like still kind of
broadly applied and a lot of you know, English policing. Now,
some of Peel's ideas quickly spread. Obviously not the thing. Well,
we'll talk about that again. Apart two, American police didn't
initially have guns um in eighteen thirty eight, though the
city of Boston became the first U s city to
establish a modern police force. Now, the creation of the

(27:28):
Boston Police, which we'll talk about a bit more in
our next episode, was driven by largely a capitalist necessity
to protect the property of big business. Boston merchants had
been paying constables and the like to protect their goods
for years, and they pushed for the establishment of a
formal police force in order to shift the burden of
paying for this onto the public, arguing that such a
force would be for the collective good. So now we

(27:49):
the merchants still get our stuff protected, but we don't
have to pay everywhere we you know, we pay a
little bit, but we pay a lot less because everybody
is paying for these guys to protect our stuff. Um. Yeah,
So so that's interesting. Um, now we're we'll return to
these Northern police and again our second episode is going
to cover more that because you know, while the Boston

(28:10):
Police of the first modern department in history, the roots
of many US police departments go back much further than
ety eight And I think a lot of folks have heard,
you know, through social media or whatever. In the last
couple of weeks as we've gone through this, this uprising. UM.
The idea that American police started out with slave patrols. UM,
And that's what we're going to talk about now, And
that's partly accurate. It's not fair to say that all

(28:32):
US police started as slave patrols because obviously, in the
North they didn't have you know, slave patrols, really they had, um.
You know, it was a different route in the North.
But in the American South, policing absolutely did grow out
of slave patrols. UM. And it you know, it came
out and you can draw a line between the two
because obviously, like the first police departments in the North
come out of a desire from you know, people with

(28:54):
money and property and shops to protect their property. And
then the American South policing also grew out of it
as ire for people with money to protect their property,
but that property was enslaved human being. Yes, yeah, yeah,
you know who doesn't establish slave patrols. Well, that's not man.
I don't know, man, I think you never know, bro,

(29:17):
you never know, I never know, man. Yeah, you know
who historically might have tried to establish police departments to
protect this is I'm not doing great with this. Hey,
you know who? Uh that I got no neither. Man,
I'm sorry, we're going to roll ads now. Just simply

(29:39):
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(31:06):
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Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.
We are back. Uh yeah, so we're we're we're getting
into we're talking slave patrols. Now, we're talking slave patrols. Yes,
So the first slave patrol was created in the Carolina
colonies in seventeen o four and twenty six, years before

(32:36):
Boston got its police force. And this is again we're
not we're not even North or South Carolina yet. They
hadn't gotten that far. But they knew they wanted Carolinas. Yeah,
we were clear on that, and they were clear that
they wanted slave patrols in those Carolinas. And yeah, sorry dude,
sorry man, Yeah sorry. I was first I was gonna

(32:57):
go o Carolina, but I was like, that's probably not
gonna land as well this week. Carolina, Sweet Carolina. Yeah,
I think you read the room right. Yeah, so slave
patrols had three jobs. To chase down, apprehend, and return
escaped slaves to their owners, and to discipline slave labors
via violence if they broke plantation rules, and to act
as an organized and constant form of state endorsed terror

(33:19):
in order to stop American slaves from revolting. Now, white
Southerners lived in pretty much constant fear of slave uprisings
the Haitian Revolution which started in sev and again it
is very complicated the Revolutions podcast. But I think Mike
Duncan is his name, is a great job of breaking
this down. But the end result of it is that
black enslaved people rosed up and murdered many of their masters.

(33:41):
And they also, to make this very complicated, a lot
of their masters were also colored peoples are very complimented. Twisted,
it's really twisted. Supremacy just really scrambles your brain, man, Yeah,
it sure does. Beside note about Haitians, did you know
that that's where the word zombie came from. I do. Yeah,
it's Haitians and came from a zombie. Yeah, and it is. Yeah,

(34:03):
there's kind of like, I'm sorry, Sophie, it's history. I'm
just hoping he doesn't sing. She knows I'm going to
start singing the Cranberry song. Zombie. That's what that was.
Sophie got triggered. Jall was like thiss sing to me again, please, Okay.
It is kind of neat. I don't know, neat maybe
the wrong word, but I do think like you can.
I don't know. Maybe I'm I'm wrong about this, but

(34:25):
it seems like you might be able to draw kind
of a line and sort of the impetus behind or
like why kind of these like where the zombie sort
of myth came from an Haitian culture and it's like
roots to like the enslavement of of of of black
bodies and like kind of what the like what was
kind of depicted and get out like yeah, yeah it is.

(34:45):
There's a lot of a lot of ties to that,
to where you're just like you're a shell of who
you are. So they were like they look like they're working,
but they look like there's nothing, no life behind their eyes,
and it's like, well fooled, uh, saying of course there's
not like this, is there any thing more hopeless than
where I am right now? You know? Yeah? And it
was you know what what scared white people. So much

(35:06):
about the Haitian Revolution is that it kind of proved
that like, oh no, that light is still in there,
Like you can you can beat them down pretty bad,
but like it never goes away, and like if we're
not careful, that'll happen here and they'll kill us all. Yeah,
and and you know, unfortunately, the Haitian Revolution remains the
only successful slavery bolt in Western history, I think maybe

(35:29):
the only the most definitely the most successful slave rebellion
anywhere in history really because like based on like the
yeah as as far as like Chattow slavery and like
the Transtlantic slave trade, that's the only one that worked. Yeah, yeah, um,
which is a it's I mean, it's good that it worked.
It's a bummer it didn't work elsewhere. Um. But the
memory of this one successful uprising was was really lodged

(35:50):
deep in the psyche of white Southerners and it scared
the ship out of them. Um. And you can you
can hear echoes of that in the Slave patrollers Oath
from North Carolina in eighteen twenty eight. And I'm gonna
I'm gonna read that now. Well wait, let me take
a deep breath for you do it? Yeah, Okay, go
for it. Yeah, I patroller's name, do swear that I will,

(36:10):
as searcher for guns, swords, and other weapons among the
slaves in my district, faithfully and as privately as I can,
discharge the trust reposed in me as the law directs,
to the best of my power. So help me God.
So again, what they're looking for here, they're they're they're
trying to stop a rebellion. Um. So searching for weaponry
is kind of like one aspect of how they did this.

(36:31):
But really the thing they did the most was beat
the ever living ship out of slaves. Yeah yeah. Um. Now,
in most of the South, working in these slave patrols
was an obligation for white men, similar to compulsory military service,
and in most of the slave states it was kind
of broadly mixed between rich people and poor people. So
like a lot of slave patrollers didn't actually own slaves

(36:52):
because they were poor white dudes. Um, but it was
kind of seen as a broad duty for white people
to be in the slave patrols, for men to kind
of wrote through. Um. Now, rich people could in some
places like basically pay a fine in order to not
volunteer in the slave patrol um and it was also
not uncommon for like wealthy white dudes uh and who

(37:12):
were ironically the folks who owned the most slaves, to
pay to have poor white men take their place. South
Carolina was unique in allowing white women to be called
up for service and slave patrol. So that's what, right, Yeah,
you know what I'm saying. You know, you pick your
you pick your oppression, and you're just like this is
the one I'm gonna fight for. You know, it's like
cheering when the CIA puts a woman in charge. It's

(37:33):
like we did it. Yeah, I always say that, Like
I always say, you know, obviously reading the room, Like
I don't have to tell y'all this, but like just
the difference between white people in whiteness, you know, it's
like it's a it's a it's a thing. Whiteness is

(37:55):
that it's a thing. It's itself just it's booked and
you know, cooked, and a white supremacy. And from from
my vantage point, it's like just how detrimental that is
to the psychology of white people. Also, you know what
I'm saying, like, how yeah, like you just this rich

(38:16):
dude hires this poor dude. Right, so now the poor
dude feel like, oh I'm a little more important now,
you know what I'm saying. But like fam you, he
don't dead man, don't respect you. That man don't love you.
I will make you think he don't like you. Want
you us, you want of us, fool. You know what
I'm saying. He's throwing your chump change to do a

(38:37):
ship job that he think he better people. Yeah, I'm
gonna oppress you so you can turn around and oppress
somebody else because the reality is I'm better than you.
And it's just like like it's scrambles, It just it
just it's turned your brain to a pretzel. Just just
does I'm not a not a fan. I'm gonna be
on record about that taking a boat stance. Yes, And

(39:00):
I'm a fan of you two I the band and
the two people I'm looking at. I am a fan
of y'all, all right anyway, So um so, yeah, South Carolina,
let let ladies be in the slave patrols. And I'm
not sure if they ever actually really did serve in them,
because they kind of they had the option to pick
a mail from their family to go in as a substitute.
So I do think that happened more off and there

(39:22):
may have been someone in the road with us. I
I can't tell you, um, but yeah, in you know,
in some states they were kind of more of like
an air sat sort of force that was kind of
cobbled together. In some states they were a professional, paid
institution that was like really kind of formalized. UM. In
some states their membership was cold from local militias. So
you know, they were they were different. They weren't all

(39:43):
like there weren't a uniform thing, but kind of the
way they worked over the decades that slavery was, you know,
a factor in the South. Um, the way they worked
kind of did become formalized. Now. Historian Sally Hayden's book
Slave Patrols is probably the most comprehensi of history yet
written about these the organizations, whatever you wanna call them.

(40:03):
She argues that in most cases, slave patrols consisted of
members of all social classes. White people were more or
less unified in their obligation to suppress the black population
and thus guarantee white supremacy. One piece of evidence Hayden
or Hadden sorry um sites to support this is an
eighteen forty five letter from a former South Carolina governor
to a visiting English abolitionist. Quote, with us, every citizen

(40:27):
is concerned in the maintenance of order and in promoting
honesty and industry among those of the lowest class who
are our slaves, and our habitual vigilance, re understanding armies,
whether if soldiers or policemen entirely unnecessary, small guards in
our cities and occasional patrols in the country ensure us
a repose and security known nowhere else. Yeah, that's how

(40:49):
this that's how this governor felt, or at least that's
what he wanted. And again he's talking to an abolitionist
from England here. So this is kind of the propaganda
spend of the slave patrols. People have to have an
army or police because our only danger is from these
black people, right, Like that's what he's saying. Yeah, that's wow. Yeah, interesting,

(41:10):
it's a brain pretzel man, Yeah, sure is. Yeah. So again,
in all states, slave patrols did the same basic work,
which included enforcing the curfew that slaves lived under. Checking,
which is talking about curfews, yeah, curfew, Yeah, checking traveling
slaves for permission passes, breaking up unlawful assemblies of slaves,

(41:31):
and of course searching for weapons. Just okay, I'm gonna
need you to I'm gonna need you to define your
terms here, you know overseers, Like, what do you mean
by unlawful gathering? Yeah? This ain't my house, this ain't
my land, I'm not even my own it would I
would tell me what I mean? What do you get?

(41:53):
Where do you want us to stand? Where do you
want us to stand so that you don't feel scared? Yeah?
That really is what it like comes down to, like
where where do we what? What can we do to
not scare you? Do you want to just like turn
off after we're done farming? Like what do you like? Yeah? Yeah,
then then if that's the case, you should have just
hired animals. Yeah you know what I'm saying, Like, yeah,

(42:16):
that's how they felt, Yes exactly, Yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Historian Sally Hayden writes in her book Slave Patrols quote
the history of police work in the South grows out
of this early fascination by white patrollers with what African
American slaves were doing. Most law enforcement was, by definition,
white patrolmen watching, catching, or beating black slaves. And I

(42:38):
do find that really interesting because that's a through line
right up to today, this destination stopped. Yeah yeah, And
I like what she describes that this fascination with what
African Americans were doing right, Like that's what the the
origin of policing in the South. Have you heard of
the Have you heard of the phrase like it's it's in,
It's in like feminism also, but the phrase the male gaze? Yes, yeah, yeah,

(43:03):
so like in the same same thing, and like black
activism spaces where it's like the white gays just like
what are you looking at all the damn time? Like,
good lord, just make something up yourself, like like just
can you go do something like you know, I think
you said in one of your one of the episodes
because I am an actual fan listeners, I listened to
the show like that you were just like if we

(43:25):
could just give just like white kids some cosplay, that's
like you're allowed to just like shoot things into an
open space, and you know what I'm saying, like that
maybe you wouldn't just be so worried about like what
I'm doing right now, you know. Yeah, Like that's that's
I do think Warida, which is you know, our plan

(43:48):
to wall off Florida, turning into a free fire zone
for just as long as the war yea, as long
as we like cover like Miami. Yeah, we keep Mimi.
We can keep Mi Miami. Yeah, yeah, we have to.
We have to protect Orlando real quick so that I
can watch the NBA playoffs. All right, Well we're rapidly
chiseling away. This is not fun, man, Orlando's too far inland. Yeah,

(44:14):
well we'll find a war state, we you know, figure
it out. Maybe the Panhandle. Can we go like the
Texas Panhandle? Y? Nobody likes that. Nobody likes it. Turn
Abilene into a free fire zone. Why is Evelene a
city anywhere? We don't need to be a city here. Yes, yeah,
i'd apologize to the Abilene listeners, but there's no one

(44:35):
listening from Abilene. Or you're in Dallas now, could you
realize Abilene shouldn't exist. Abelene the place where you will
absolutely get pulled over if you drive through, just because
there's nothing else for the constant, nothing else to do. Abilene.
Where as soon as you're eighteen, we'll see you later. Yeah,
get out of just your leaving so the violence meeted

(44:59):
out by slave patrols was neither random nor disorganized. Slave
patrollers had the right to detain and deterrogate and search
slave quarters, that were allowed to seize property at will um,
which was you could see as kind of an early
form of civil asset forfeiture. They also had the right
to punish black people on the spot for infractions of
slave laws. Now, physical punishment could be dealt out via firearms,

(45:19):
but was usually dealt out by what we're called either
negro whips or negro dogs. And I probably don't need
to explain what negro dogs were, but they they're they're
large bloodhounds that patrollers used both to track down slaves
and to horribly name them. Um. And and that is
the term that that historians used for these is negro dogs,

(45:41):
because that's what they were called by. Yeah. Um. So
we're talking mostly about slave patrols, and there's there's a
lot of other areas I could get into detail, and
I just don't have the time too. But I should
note here that slave patrols were not entirely the first
thing kind of like slave patrols to exist in the
United States, even before slavery was really common in the

(46:01):
United States U S settlers in New England appointed Indian
constables whose job was the police native Americans, often by
violent terror. Um And it's worth noting that the St.
Louis Police, who we are we'll be talking about a
bit at the interior, were formed both as a slave
patrol and as a patrol to defend white people against
Native Americans. So that is a big factor in a

(46:21):
lot of this too. You know, some of these areas,
the native populations kind of had gotten exterminated or pushed
out by the time things formalized. But in a number
of particularly more quote unquote frontier places, slave patrols also
did a lot of violence against Native Americans, and that
is an important aspect of this. And even in the North,
where slave patrols weren't a thing, there were you know,
groups of vigilantes, well not quite vigilantes, because they were

(46:44):
sort of part of the government who whose job was
to like, you know, do violence to Native people. Um.
So that is a factor in all this as well.
Um So, yeah, if we want to be perfectly accurate
the cases less as it's made on Twitter that US
police started as slave patrols and more that US police
started as a series of armed groups whose central purpose
was to protect white people from non white people via violence.

(47:07):
That that would be Yeah, that that's that that Yeah,
that gets your your critical race theory juices going the
intersectionality of of oppression from the police like it ain't Look, yeah,
they're coming for you too. That's always been That's always
been my answer. Look, you're chilling, They're coming for you too. Ip.

(47:28):
You know. So the institution of slave patrols evolved and
formalized over time. And for a look at how that worked,
I think it'll be used for us to zoom in
on the case of my home state, Missouri. Now, Missouri
entered the Union in eighteen twenty one as a slave state,
and racism was obviously baked into the new policy from
the very beginning. In eight the new state passed a

(47:48):
law banning any quote free negro or mulatto from coming
into the state under any pretext whatsoever. Um which Oregon
had a pretty similar but partial rule after the Civil War.
So like, yeah, how racist Oregon started out as um
is also the year that Missouri established its very first
slave patrols. And I'm going to quote now from a

(48:09):
paper by more House College Professor Larry Sproule quote. By
eighteen forty five, these patrols had permission to administer from
ten to thirty lashes to slaves found strolling about from
one plantation to another without pass from his master, mistress
or overseer or strolling about. Yeah, you can't go for
no walk? What's wrong with you? And you could just

(48:29):
as what you just said. It's like, oh, no, I
don't have a like I'm free, I don't have a master. Yeah,
well you ain't got no letter from your master. No, s,
you're not listening to me. I don't have a master.
You're breaking the law. Well then you don't belong in
this state. Yea, yep, alright, I guess. Yeah. So Missouri

(48:50):
slave patrols worked at least twelve hours a month, but
also you know, some people worked a lot more, and
members received about twenty five cents per hour. Now I
should note here that the patrols weren't just randomly accosting
individual slaves. Enslaved humans in the United States resisted their
situation in a variety of ways, um and so there
were often like, you know, minor little uprisings that slave

(49:11):
patrols were like working to put down. So slaves would
often take crops and livestock from from their masters. They
would burn fields and even plantation houses. They would poison
their masters, and they would attempt uprisings. Um and so.
Like the Spartan cryptia, most of the work of slave
patrols was broadly what we would call counterinsurgency today. In
many rural counties in Missouri, um enslaved black persons where

(49:34):
the majority of people and whites were well aware that
they had, you know, kind of a tiger by the tail.
Sprul continues quote. Southern whites developed a collective conscience and
political consensus to tightly control blacks within their midst. Slave
policing demanded accountability for every captive's whereabouts. A missing slave
was caused for grave concern, often causing panic. Fear of
insurrection made unauthorized blacks on roads or in the public

(49:56):
square hazardous. Racial features made blacks visible, suspect and vulnerable
to slave patrollers looking to catch up inward out of
his place without a pass. Just as blackness was the
stigmatized identification of bondsman, it also singled them out as
suspects and criminals. An enslaved Africans phenotype marked them as
a habitual dangerous class, requiring relentless supervision and policing to

(50:19):
guarantee their submission. Yeah, that also sounds familiar. Yeah, that
sounds familiar. And we'll be talking the term dangerous class
is used constantly by historians who study policing in the
United States. That we will be talking a lot about
the idea of dangerous classes. Yeah, it's an important concept.
You don't realize, like how that like that that just

(50:43):
poisonous stain like just that that that weird DNA strand
just like stayed with us to the point to where
you know, you're I know you're gonna get to it later.
But like you know, black men, black boys being treated
like adults when your kids because you already think we're
more dangerous. In your first gun I was the first

(51:05):
time cop pulled a gun on me. I was fourteen,
and I was like I didn't grown on facial hair,
I still had a squeaky voice. It just was terrified.
He was talking to me like I was so hard
and criminal, and I'm like, dog, I'm a freshman. I'm
a freshman in high school. Like I'm scared that I'm
like my Mom's gonna be pissed because I'm home late.
That's what I'm scared about. My mom gonna be piste
that I was supposed to be home at three five.

(51:27):
I'm gonna get home at four fifteen. She gonna be like,
where the hell are you? You know what I'm saying,
So like I'm I'm tearing and he's talking to me
like I know, I don't even know the words he's saying.
It's because you already see us already as dangerous. Yeah yeah, yeah,
and yeah this is this is like how that kind
of steps and evolves and how that ball gets rolling

(51:49):
to the boulder it is today. Um yeah, So for
kind of another another look at how people saw the
slave patrols in that time, UM, I want to go
to a guy named Basil Hall. He was a nineteenth
century English traveler and author. He visited the American South
in eighteen twenty nine and he wound up in Richmond, Virginia.
His recollection of how slave patrols were explained to him

(52:09):
gives us another insight into how white people talked about
this institution to other white people, which I think is compelling.
Quote in walking around, my eyes were struck with the
unusual site of a sentinel marching with his musket, my
companion said, and his companion as a local American Southerner,
white Southerner, obviously, it is necessary to have a small
guard always under arms. It is the consequence of the

(52:30):
nature of our colored population. But it has done more
as a preventative check than anything else. It keeps all
thoughts of insurrection out of the heads of the slaves,
and so gives confidence to those persons amongst us who
may be timorous. But in reality there is no cause
for alarm. The Blacks have become more and more sensible
every day of their want of power. After further inquiry,
Hall noted, I learned that there was in all these

(52:51):
places in towns a vigorous and active police, whose rule
is that no negro, for example, is allowed to be
out of doors after sunset without a pass from his master,
ex ding the nature of his errand if during his
absence from home he'd be found wandering from the proper
line of his message, he is speedily taken up and
corrected accordingly. So that's a lot of that's interesting, like
the idea that, like the police are here not just

(53:13):
to keep keep black people in line, but so that
frightened white people don't get scared of black people. That's
an interesting part to me. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good
that yeah, that layer yeah yeah, man, yeah, yeah, it's here.
We're here for Karen's too. Yeah, exactly. You can always

(53:35):
call us, you can always call the cops here. Yeah,
that's exactly what's going on here. So slaves patrols were
generally limited to pursuing escaped slaves within their own counties.
When a slave or a group of slaves was fortunate
enough to be able to move further away from wherever
they were being held, bounty hunters, like slave bounty hunters,
generally took on the job of attempting to track these

(53:56):
slaves down. And these men were allowed across state lines
and they're work was supported by the Fugitive Slave Act,
which was passed in eighteen fifty is part of a
compromise to try and avoid a civil war. The law
mandated that all escaped slaves, if captured, be returned to
their masters, even if those slaves had escaped to a
free state. Abolitionists called this the Bloodhound Bill, after the
dogs that bounty hunters and slave patrollers used to track

(54:19):
down slaves. Solomon Northrop, author of the memoire Twelve Years
a Slave, gave one account of what it was like
to watch patrollers with dogs hunt down an enslaved black person.
In this case, it was not even an escaped slave,
but merely an individual who had broken his curfew. Quote.
One slave fled before one of these companies, thinking he
could reach his cabin before they could overtake him. But

(54:40):
one of their dogs, a great ravenous hound, gripped him
by the leg and held him fast. The patrollers whipped
him severely. Yeah, I I want to be careful. I
don't want to like draw because it's it does a
disservice to like the horrific suffering of black people in
this period of time and today to to draw like
too many direct comparisons to some of the stuff happening now.

(55:04):
But it's not. I don't think we can go without
entirely mentioning it that, like probably a lot of people
listening right now had violence done to them by police
recently for breaking curfew. Like that is interesting to me,
Like the the the o session with curfew is a
through line, right, But like if you're out when you're
not allowed to. We get to funk you up, like yeah,
and it's funny, Like I was talking with you know,

(55:24):
some of my friends, uh, my wife, even my daughter.
My daughter is old enough now to like go to protests,
go to protests with us, and you know, and kind
of like kind of do our own thing and just
us at this point being like, okay, dude, are you serious.
Like at California, we just kept getting the alerts, like

(55:45):
four o'clock, five o'clock, six o'clock, it just kept you
kept getting Amber alerted the thing, and it's like, dude, okay,
bro get it together all right and just talk to
us later. But it's kind of like we we're kind
of like, is this a joke? Man? Like, Okay, so
it's a thousand dollar fine, Okay, throw me in the pattiwagon.
Thousand dollars fine, it's fine. You know what I'm saying. Um,

(56:06):
maybe you're gonna rough me up a little bit, but
I'm black, I'm from Los Angeles. You've been roughing me
up my whole life, you know what I'm saying. So
for us, we were kind of like, it's kind of
it's kind of laughable. And then you go back to like, no,
it wasn't always laughable. Yeah, you know, like this was terror. Yeah,

(56:27):
this was absolutely terror and I think they would have
It's interesting that it is talked about slave patrols is
like a counterinsurgency, but like the way they counter the
insurgency was by being terrorists terrorists. Yeah, and that's the
first police departments. Yeah. So Spruit's article, which we've been
quoting from, includes a number of other firsthand accounts by

(56:49):
enslaved persons of the use of these these dogs, you know,
these bloodhounds, negro dogs. Um. Most of these accounts were
taken down during the Great Depression. Which is one of
the coolest things they did during the New Deal is
the FDR administration send a bunch of people out to
interview former slaves who are now at that point quite old.
But that's where we get a lot of ore, a
lot of our like kind of formal stories of what

(57:10):
it was like to be an enslaved person this period.
So thank you the New Deal for that particular was
a good call. Um. So one of these people who
has interviewed noted, quote, in every district they had about
twelve men they call patrollers. They write up and down
and round looking for inwards without passes. When slaves run away,
they always put the bloodhounds on the tracks. They had

(57:30):
the dogs trained to keep their teeth out of you
till they hold them up to bring you down. Then
the dogs would go at your throat and they'd tear
you to pieces too. After a slave was caught, he
was brung home and put in chains. M yeah, so
we also have recollections of slave patrol members of their
use of dogs. One of these guys, and who was
a slave patroller in Louisiana in eighteen fifty seven, described

(57:51):
his method of work thus, Lee quote, If I can
catch a cust runaway in word without killing him, very good. Though.
I generally let the hounds punish him a little, and
sometimes give him a load of squirrel shot, which is
like a light shotgunload. If mild measures like these do
not suffice, I use harsher punishment. The moment the hounds
come close, they utter a hideous and mournful howl Heaven,

(58:11):
pity the poor. And then he uses the inn word again.
So yeah, not a not a good dude. I hope
he didn't make it out of that Civil war. Um. Yeah, Yeah,
I hope that guy got Gettysburg. Yeah, I hope he
met Sherman or Grant or someone. Yeah, I'm about to
get Hissburg this transition. Yeah, let's get Easburg. These ads

(58:34):
like pickets. I don't know, just run as I call
the Union Hall as his male life and death. I
think these people are planning to kill Dr King. On
April four, Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed

(58:55):
in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested.
He played aulty to the crime and spent the rest
of his life in prison. Case closed right, James hil
Ray was upon for the official story. The authorities would
parade all we found a gun the James L. Ray
board in Birmingham that killed Dr King. Except it wasn't

(59:19):
the gun that killed Dr. King. One of the problems
that came out when I got the Ray case was
that some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned,
did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes.
The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

(59:42):
What's up, guys, I'm a shop bloud and I am
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(01:00:47):
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(01:01:08):
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or wherever you get your podcasts. So we're back, uh,

(01:01:32):
and we're talking about the use of dogs to enforce
a regime based in terrorism UM otherwise known as the
American South. That's kind of what it was, guys. Yeah.
So the horrible wounds left by these these dogs fulfilled
the dual purpose they served as a reminder of white

(01:01:52):
supremacy UM and is an easy way to identify troublesome
slaves because obviously there's a ton of slaves with horrible
dog scars and see other black people seeing those scars.
Both would be like white people have the power because like,
look at what they're how badly all these people got
sucked up. And also it was a way for the
white people to see like that guy, is that guy's trouble?
Like that was your arrest record? Was the dogstars on

(01:02:14):
your face? Yeah? Um, he's the red sports car. Yeah,
that's what the teachers. That's what the teachers tell you. You
You know, you're kind of a red sports car kid. Yeah,
I decide what the cops is gonna look for you
because I expect you to be fast, Like yeah, thanks,
miss Williams, thank you. It's pretty obscure, deep cut like

(01:02:35):
but still anyway, no nobody tells white kids stuff like that.
At least I didn't hear anything, Like you didn't hear
the red car vet or the red sports car story.
I mean I got told as a as a young adult,
I got told not to buy a red car because
the police, uh cite them for speeding more often. But
like that that was my thing. Yeah, and then well
that's there. It is. Yeah, yeah, it is weird that

(01:02:57):
we tell people in general like don't stand out, or
the yeah, I don't know, I don't want to be leaders,
don't stand out. So um. By the onset of the
Civil War, bloodhounds had grown to become the single most
reliable tool of oppression in the arsenal of Southern whites.
Like the dogs in particular were like the way in which,

(01:03:19):
more than any other tool white people like. I think
even the lash was used more as like a punishment,
but like in terms of a tool of actual oppression,
like the dogs were really like the fucking thing. Um.
And when the Civil War started, the organized and militantmen
of the slave patrols were all too happy to turn
their counterinsurgency skills to use in a real war. One

(01:03:39):
Union field officers scouting through rebel lands in eighteen sixty
two reported hearing the constant barking of hounds, which would
have been turned towards a new use searching for Union infiltraders.
This officer described dogs as the detective officers of slavery's police.
Confederate generals also deployed bloodhounds on the front line. Black
Union soldiers were considered fugitives, eaves in arms and it

(01:04:01):
was seen as only logical that these Negro dogs could
be used to break their will and send them fleeing
from battle. You know that these Southern generals were like,
they're so scared of these dogs. If we use them
against these new black military units, it'll make them all
run away, right Like, clearly they these guys won't be
able to handle, you know, standing up to dogs in combat. Yeah,
this was one of many misconceptions that the things we're

(01:04:23):
going to go in that war. On October eighteen sixty two,
the Battle of Pocataligo Bridge marked the first time Black
soldiers came face to face with the Negro dogs of
slave patrols in open combat. The black soldiers were the
men of the first South Carolina Colored Regiments, and their
field reports stated that the men met these dogs with bayonets,
killed four or five of their old tormentors with great relish.

(01:04:47):
And I'm not normally a killing dogs person, but in
this case it's a good story. Yeah, yeah, just you
when you and I feel like knowing a little bit
of your backstory, you'd be so prize when a person
is like fighting for their life, the amount of bravery
and adrenaline that you can muster up when you're like I,

(01:05:11):
I'm not dying today. Yeah, it's not happening to day,
you know. So yeah, when you when you don't under
if you want to estimate that, and you just think
you you think this dog, you think this dog, Finn,
stop these men like you think I'm worried about that
little dog right now. Naw, bro, we got going back.
We're not going back. We got guns now. Yeah. Yeah.

(01:05:31):
So fighting between Confederate units with slavehounds and Black Union
units continued throughout the war. In eighteen sixty four, one
Black soldier wrote a letter back to his wife depicting
one such batter and was he actually wrote her a poem,
and it's a pretty cool poem. So I'm gonna read that. Now.
We met the bloodhounds at the bridge. They ran with
all their might. It was a glorious sight. We ran
our bayonets through their backs. We shot them with the gun.

(01:05:52):
It was all over with the dogs, and twas most
glorious fun. In former days, those brutes were used to
hunt the flying slave. They tracked them through their dismal
swamps and little quarter gave. But when they tried the
game of war, we knocked them on the head. We
shot them quick and ran them through until every hound
was dead. Oh yeahs bars, yeah, so obviously and um

(01:06:20):
spoilers here to the listeners who have not caught up
to us history past, Like eighteen sixty four, the Confederacy
didn't win, ant lost. I'll tell you one of the
I I got to watch from a distance someone in
my neighborhood in Portland have a real like like growth moment.

(01:06:41):
So there's this, you know, the General Lee, the car
from the Hazard that was like the Confederate flag on
the hood. I had a little hot wheels one yeah sure, yeah. Um.
There's a guy who lives not far from me who
has like a who has that car, like a perfect
replica of the Generally, and it had the Confederate flag
on it. And for the first few months I lived there,
I would see him driving through this eats with his
big Confederate flag on his general lead. And about to

(01:07:03):
three months ago I saw him driving his car but
he painted over the Confederate flag and it was just orange.
I was like, oh, you had you had you, Yeah,
you had a little moment. Good for you. He grew
a bit. Yes see, that's what I mean by the Northwest,
specificallymportant as a tale of two cities, because I'm like,

(01:07:26):
there's this just bastion of like left progressive like freedom
fighting yahto and like you know, tiger Claw damn like
hard hard ciders at the police, you know what I'm saying.
And then and then there's the guy with the right
in my life, my life. It's a complicated place, yes,

(01:07:49):
and then the right guy with the robberty league, with
the with the general league. Like it's just it's two
cities in one place. Some of the greatest coffee in
the world, quote solid beer quote me, some of the
most amazing beer. And then there's like and then there's Salem.
There's Salem. How it happened? Yeah yeah, so um yeah.

(01:08:13):
The Confederacy lost the war, and by eighteen sixty five,
both the dream of Southern independence and slavery were dead.
White supremacy, though did not die. White people in the
former Confederate States wasted no time in turning the institutions
of the slave patrols into formal police departments. In eighteen
sixty five, the editor of the Lynchburg Virginian noted, which
was the newspaper noted that quote stringent police regulations may

(01:08:36):
be necessary to keep Friedman from over burdening the towns
and depleting the agricultural regions of labor. The civil authority
should also be fully empowered to protect the community from
this new imposition. The magistrates and municipal officers everywhere should
be permitted to hold a rod into aram over these
wandering idle creatures. Nothing short of the most efficient police

(01:08:56):
system will prevent strolling, vagrancy, theft, and other destruction of
our industrial system. So that's pretty clear. That's pretty great.
It's the it's the like, it's the moment. Like, so
the Chappelle Show years ago had a skit where he
depicted the day like the postman comes with the letter

(01:09:16):
that the slaves are free, right, Like it's one of
the greatest skits, and they're just and he's about to
whoop this whip this guy. Whipped this guy, whip this guy.
Then the postman walks up and he goes, well, apparently,
apparently you guys are free, and it just starts like
looking around at all the other slaves around him, and
they're like he's like, uh hey, sorry about that. A

(01:09:37):
second ago, man, you know, just like, so what do
you do? Like what exactly? So They're like, we bet it,
you know, we bet it. We better get in some
protection because those last hundred years were kind of shipped
to them. You know, Oh, ship, what if they treat
us even a little bit as bad as Yeah. In

(01:09:59):
her books Slave Patrols, Hayden notes quote policemen in southern
towns continued to carry out those aspects of urban slave
patrolling that seemed race neutral, but in reality were applied selectively.
Police saw that nightly curfews and vagrancy laws kept blacks
off city streets, just as patrollers had done in colonial
and anti bellum times. In the post war South, police

(01:10:19):
were seen as the single most important method of maintaining
a system of, in the words of one prominent Virginia clergyman,
liberty for the white man, slavery for the inward, so
long as the white man is able to hold him
m M exactly now. In the textbook Policing by North
Dakota States Caro Archbold, published by Sage Press, Uh it

(01:10:43):
gets like that text book gives a rundown of how
slave patrollers transitioned into policing freed blacks. In the post
war period, and I'm gonna quote from that next. During
early reconstruction, several groups merged with what was formerly known
as slave patrols to maintain order over African American citizens.
Groups such as the federal military, the State Militia, and
the ku Klux Klan took over the responsibilities of earlier

(01:11:03):
slave patrols and were known to be even more violent
than their predecessors. Over time, these groups began to resemble
and operate similar to some of the newly established police
departments in the United States. In fact, David Barlow and
Melissa Barlow note that by eighteen thirty seven, the Charleston
Police Department had a hundred officers and the primary function
of this organization was slave patrol. These officers regulated the

(01:11:24):
movements of slaves and free blacks, checking documents and forcing
slave codes, guarding against slave revolts, and catching runaway slaves.
Scholars and historians assert that the transition from slave patrols
to publicly funded police agencies was seamless in the southern
region of the United States. So they just took these
slave patrols. The war's over, now, your cops. That's literally
how it went. Yeah, Now that's not every obviously, not

(01:11:48):
every police part from the South, because like a lot
of cities and towns that are in the South now
and have police didn't exist back then. But like, for example,
the St. Louis Police started as a slave patrol. The
the St. Louis Police Department that existed to day as
a slave patrol. Yes, the current St. Louis Police have
their origins as a slave patrol. Yeah. So a number

(01:12:11):
of the St. Louis Police Department's first officers were former
bounty hunters and slave patrollers, and they brought to their
new job their old tactics, most specifically their old tactic
of using dogs to torture and terrify black people. And
here's where things get real, real, real angry making, because
the use of Negro dogs continues to this moment right

(01:12:33):
now in present day St. Louis. Oh my god, yeah,
talk to huh, I said, talk to me, Nelly stomping
into Air Force ones. In two thousand fourteen, the murder
of Michael Brown by a Ferguson St. Louis police officer

(01:12:53):
prompted an uprising by the city's black population. And people
are broadly familiar with us and this was suppressed with
extreme violence. But the whole affair forced the Department of
Justice to conduct and publish an expansive report on the
Ferguson Police Department's behavior. This report concluded that, quote, the
Ferguson Police Department engages in a pattern of deploying canines
to bite individuals when the articulated facts do not justify

(01:13:15):
the significant use of force, leaving serious puncture wounds to
non violent offenders, some of them children. Now, the report
went on to note that Ferguson police were allowed to
sick dogs on suspects when any crime, not just a
felony or violent crime, has been committed. This permissiveness, combined
with the absence of meaningful supervisory review and an apparent

(01:13:36):
tendency to overstate the threat based on race, has resulted
in avoidable dog bites to low level offenders. And the
d J report kind of uses a little bit of
weasel language on this fact. But one of the things
that revealed is that one hundred percent of the people
maimed by Ferguson police dogs were black. See this, like,

(01:13:58):
how what am I trying to say? Now? What gets
me right? What gets under my skin? In discussions of
this is that it sounds so preposterous that people say,
we're alarmists, we're just making this stuff up. You know,
that was a long time ago. It's all in your head,
and it's and you're like, so after a while, you

(01:14:22):
actually start thinking, you know, maybe I am crazy, maybe
it is in my head. And then you're just like
and then you look at your other your other black friends,
and you like, am I tripping or did this happen?
And they're like, no, it kind of happened to me too.
And then you're like, how about the other side of
the country. Did it happen to y'all too? And you're
just like yeah. So then when you and then when

(01:14:43):
the report comes out, you're just like, guys, like, I'm
telling you I'm not crazy. I'm telling you this is happening,
you know, And I still got to convince you. And
I'm like, what do you what do many receipts do
you need? And it it didn't convince it. Fifteen this
comes out and it's another like people seem more convinced
now after everything that's happened, but like it took like

(01:15:04):
five years after this report came out, and there was really,
you know, there was an upper or the murder of
Michael Brown obviously, um, but there was the fucking the
fact that the fact that a police department formed out
of a slave patrol that used dogs too maim black
people in order to terrorize them was two hundred years
later using dogs to nime only black people in order

(01:15:24):
to tear the fact that that was happening like that,
it was like, yeah, and then it was out of
the zeit geist. And then it was out of the
ze guist that I was gonna say. Then it's gone
out of the zi guys, and it's and that's the
other thing that's so hard about like and im and
I'm critiquing myself period. I'm taking all of us period.
Is like when when the cameras leave, Like how hard
it is to keep the energy up to say, look, listen,

(01:15:46):
I know it's a high. It was a high, like
you know, high profile case. But it's not done, you
know what I'm saying. And now that it's back, Okay,
it's a year later, y'all forgot about my ground because
you onto the next hashtag. But I'm like, no, seriously,
we didn't make this up. Like here's the evidence, Like
I'm telling you that's what happened, and it's like how
it's you. You you find yourself like just exhausted as

(01:16:09):
to go, Like I just no matter how many receipts
I give you, like you know what I'm saying, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
speaking of receipts, I do feel like I need to
quote from the New Yorker here and there. They did
do a pretty good article kind of digging into the
use of these these dogs. So I do want to
like credit them for that. They didn't look away. They

(01:16:31):
you know, they put out an article which isn't nothing
um better than not? Yeah right, like yeah. In one account,
a dog was sent after an unarmed sixteen year old
who was also tazered. The electric shock of that weapon
partially paralyzed as a person. If that were to happen
while a dog was tearing at your arms and legs,
all you could do would be to watch an immobilized horror.

(01:16:52):
Another case involved four police officers, including a canine handler,
trapping an unarmed fourteen year old in an abandoned basement.
The crime tres passing. The Department of Justice report recounts
what the boy says happened. To him. When he saw
the dog at the top of the steps, he turned
to run, but the dog quickly bit him on the
ankle and then the thigh, causing him to fall to
the floor. The dog was about to bite his face

(01:17:12):
or neck, but instead got his left arm, which the
boy had raised to protect himself. FPD officers struck him
while he was on the ground, one of them putting
a boot on the side of his head. He recalled,
the officers laughing about the incident afterward. Ah, the poison blue,
the boys in blue and the boys in blue. Man, yeah,

(01:17:33):
he just Man, it's like how many how many bad
apples you need before you start like checking the orchard?
Like yeah, what if the soil is bad? Like how
nobody's like you keep talking about these yo treat keep
producing bad fruit like and you keep blaming like some
wrong with your treat. Man, all these apples are just

(01:17:53):
filled with piss, Like what happened? Apples? Why are the
all the apples would piss? That's just one then why
Well if it's just why are you putting it in
a bucket? Where do we keep grew in these apples?
Why do you keeping there? I mean, we get rid
of the orchard. It's a bad like it makes sense
to me. Yeah, yep. So again, the use of Ferguson

(01:18:17):
police dogs made very little of a splash when it
was revealed, even though again a hundred percent of the
individuals named by Ferguson police dogs were black, and of
individuals that the Ferguson Police did violence too in general,
were black. Names of canine officers and their supervisors were
not revealed in the report. That Department of Justice report
on the Ferguson p D made one hundred and thirty
seven corrective recommendations on how the department could fix its

(01:18:38):
violent behavior. Only one of those reforms dealt with canine violence,
suggesting that the police department require on site supervisory approval
before allowing a canine officer to maim people. It's like
if a cool I bite this black guy, Okay, yeah,

(01:18:58):
I want to have a dog tear the flesh of
this fourteen year old? Is that cool? That's all right?
Glad we put it put this so, as of today,
Ferguson police still use dogs to control suspects. Most Ferguson
officers are white. Virtually all the people they arrest and
detain are black No Ferguson officer has yet been tried

(01:19:20):
or fired for using police dogs to brutalize citizens. Professor
Larry Sprule notes, quote the officer's procedural avoidance of criminal
liability for death and torture of black citizens was not
dissimilar to slave patroller's antebellum indemnity for similar violence. Yep.
In his paper on Negro dogs and the Ferguson Police,

(01:19:41):
Professor Sprul sites to other academics Williams and Murphy, who
wrote a nineteen paper on the transition from slave patrols
to police departments. Williams and Murphy noted, quote, the legal
order sustained slavery, segregation, and discrimination from most of our
nation's history, and the fact that the police were bound
to uphold that order set a pattern for police behavior
and attitudes towards minority communities that have persisted until the

(01:20:04):
present day. That pattern includes the idea that minorities have
fewer civil rights, that the task of police is to
keep them under control, and that the police have little
responsibility for protecting them from crime within their communities. Oh God,
there we go. Oh my god. Yep. Maybe plain they
can throw me one of those one of those white claws.

(01:20:29):
There was I missed this rally, but there was apparently
a rally where some of the anti for kids. Do
you remember there was that that pepsi ad with Um
Jenner where she hands a pepsi to a cop. Like
right after that, add a bunch of those like kids
showed up at this I think it was a Mayday
protest with like like crates of pepsi and just started
chucking them at the cops. I love it. Uh yeah,

(01:20:58):
oh my god, dude. I mean you know what. I
give it to the antifa kids. Man, they got sense
as a humor die like y'all funny, you know what
I'm saying. Yeah, it's it's I you know it. It's
It's been interesting because like there's all this talk of
like like Portland has like a big anti fascist sort
of activist community, but like with all the talk that
there is with from the president about Antifa at these protests,

(01:21:21):
they've really taken a backseat, Like they have not been
driving the fucking bus here. Yeah, I can tell you
that much. Um. And it's kind of obvious because I'm
like in in some ways I feel like a lot
of the anti fascist dudes, like they gotta they have
a style. There's like an aesthetic to what they do
that like, and I know it's a weird way to

(01:21:42):
say it, but I feel like I go, oh, yeah,
that's that's kind of their flavor, you know. I'm like,
this ain't that. Yeah, it's just something else, you know. Yeah.
It's like when you see yeah, when you see like
the graffiti that says like Black's rule, I'm like, black
man did not write that, know, like that that's ridiculous. Okay.

(01:22:04):
The flip side of that was like in Portland on
two Fridays ago, I think we had um, you know,
a crowd marched to the Justice Center and then people
just started sucking it up, like breaking all the windows.
They lit some fires like and it was one of
it was very obvious, I think to everyone who knew
the city, like because this was like the day after
the Precinct in Minneapolis was burned, and I was like, yeah,
that Justice Center up, it's going down. Yeah, And there

(01:22:27):
was like it was blamed a lot on like like
white anarchist kids, Like, yeah, there were definitely some of
those folks doing it, but like it was a pretty
diverse crowd that sucked up the justice It's not. Yeah,
you know, life and history is not so compartmentalized that
you could just be like this happened, that this happened,
and that group of people boughten Sales did the thing. Yeah,
a lot of folks wanted to get into that justice

(01:22:48):
center and yeah, um so properly. That is episode one.
And again this is you know, the slave Slave, but
a lot of you know this, I'll much every episode
is going to deal with racism because it's kind of
central to policing. But next episode we're gonna be talking
about sort of policing more in the North and and
kind of policing against against people we consider white, but

(01:23:11):
who at the time the people who controlled the police
might not necessarily have considered white. You know. That's that's Oh,
I can't wait for this one because like at some point, man,
I just feel like, I know, my work's gonna call
me to do a some sort of deep dive in
the construction of like pan ethnic terms like black or

(01:23:33):
white and what the hell that means, Like, you know,
even even hearing like the who was the Milo boy?
What was his name? Milois? Yeah? Whatever his name is
him talking about like this our country was made for
the advancement of white men, and I'm like, no, wasn't
because there was no such thing as white man when

(01:23:55):
y'all got here, and you you ain't even you don't
even what the Irish here that's the are then part
of the same island for crying out loud, so like
you're looking at them, you don't think it's still people
in this world that don't think Italians are white, Like
I just what the hell are you talking about? You
know what I'm saying, Like, so you don't even know
what white means, you know? So I love what you're

(01:24:15):
gonna go to next because just like you have to
remember again it's a construct like y'all made. Y'all made
that up. So we'll talk about that in part two.
Prop you wanna plug some plugbules before we roll out man. Yeah,
so yeah, everything for me is prop hip Hop uh
dot com. That's my app mentioned, just all of it.
PROP hip Hop doing a fun thing on Friday's called

(01:24:38):
poor Gami Friday's Right. Basically, just make a make a
single cup of like pour over coffee with a buddy
on Instagram and we feature like yeah, and we feature
like a local roaster, uh from wherever like offer discounts
and like. And since since this last you know, uprising,

(01:24:58):
we've been featuring like coffee roasters you know, owned by
by persons of color. Um did just support just support
good coffee, you know what I'm saying. So that's kind
of a fun thing. I'd i'd plug on this one.
Since I get to come back three times, I get
to pick what I'm gonna plug. Yeah, yeah, awesome. Yeah,
well check that out. Check out prop and his his

(01:25:20):
wonderful music on his YouTube channel. Um and uh what
propaganda people should know if they look for something. Yeah.
Also you know what, actually I would say, you know what,
I'm glad you brought that up. So let me save
all y'all the d m s you're gonna give me. Okay,
at some point, I don't already answered the question you

(01:25:41):
find at want a personal answer for in one of
these videos or interviews, so like, so just you know,
check the YouTube. Yeah, I'm saying, uh, just just it's
it's probably there. We at some point we've talked about it.
So I'm just just just go ahead and put that

(01:26:02):
out alright, folks. Um, Well we will be back like
fucking four more times at least to talk about more
times American police UM and where they came from. So
I hope everybody enjoys this series, UM, and I hope
folks pass it along to um friends and family who
might uh. I think that policing just needs a little

(01:26:25):
bit alike. I just gotta like, just gotta like its face,
and we'll be back. We'll be fine. Like I can't
go back to it being good. It was always ship
rethink this thing, you know, and like and and and
I mean, I'm gonna come back to this a bunch
of times in this episode, got it, And I'm gonna
come back to this in a bunch of times. But
like I hope people are hearing that, like almost not

(01:26:45):
almost literally, all of our institutions we just made them up,
like they're made up, you know what I'm saying, at
some point in time we made they don't exist in
nature like we made them up. So if you have
a bad idea in any other part of your life,
you stop doing the bad idea and you try to

(01:27:06):
make a better one. Yeah, we can. We can have
a society where like if someone commits murder, there's somebody
whose job it is to like figure out who did
that and like make sure they don't get to keep
doing We we can have that, we don't have We
can have that without having a dude who feels empowered
to choke a man for nine minutes. You have to

(01:27:27):
haveth You don't have to have both. You mean to
tell me the thought has never crossed your mind that
the person next takes care of is homeless guy for loitering,
who's just by virtue of his existence is breaking it all.
And the same guy and the same tool needs to
deal with the acts of murderer. You mean to tell

(01:27:47):
me that that takes the same people. Yeah, countries that
have people who like make sure there aren't drunk drivers
on the road, and the people who do that job
don't have guns and don't get to like throw people
in prison and ruin their lives and search them for
drugs and plant drugs on them, Like you don't. You

(01:28:08):
can have people whose job is like, yeah, we should
make sure, you know, we should have some eyes on traffic,
because like that's that's a big thing. Like somebody should
be like, let's keep an eye on that ship without
the other stuff legally go into a woman's house while
she's sleeping and murder her. Maybe we don't need no
knock raids at all for any reason. That's a bad idea,
like why like who just keeps? Who just holds onto

(01:28:32):
bad ideas? Just like it's a bad idea, Like let's
just think of another one. Yeah, shame, we can't change. Well,
yeah right, for more bad ideas, come back on on Thursday.
Well we'll talk about um, talk more about cops. Yeah,
all right, that's us for now. Good Bye Behind the

(01:28:54):
Police is a production of I Heart Radio. For more
podcast from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, what
does the chicken say? Draft? Draff rally giraffe draft? You're

(01:29:18):
not gonna get it all right, Just make sure you
know the big stuff, like making sure your kids are
buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.
Get it right. Visits n h S a dot gov
slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National
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had the feeling that there's something strange about reality. According

(01:29:38):
to the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast, there is.
On the show Post Robert Lamb and Joe McCormick examine
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Apple wherever you get your podcast as brought to you

(01:30:00):
by Doug dot Gol Protective Privacy online for free with
Doug Doug go Hello, I'm Mini Driver and on my
podcast Many Questions. I put together a little experiment. I
asked trailblazers across different disciplines the same seven questions. Questions
about the inflection points in their life, what they like
least about themselves, and what relationship has to fined love
for them. This season, I'm coming back with new trailblazers

(01:30:24):
like Blondie vocalist Debbie Harry. I did have a revelation.
It was at CBGBUS. As a matter of fact, I
was waiting for the audience to give it to me,
give it me. Then I realized that I had to
make them. I had to command them. Artists and creative Juggernaut.
Goldie and I walk up to the mountain on high
cop just being in that environment and seeing life in

(01:30:46):
death in front of you, right in front of you.
And I got there and scream and cry and laugh,
and I find that being the happiest. And many more
join me as we continue this exploration on season two
of many questions on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. H

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