Does Punching Nazis Work? A Conversation From Unite The Right 2.0

This Bonus Episode is Robert's discussion after protesting at Unite The Right 2.0.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hm. I'm Robert Evans, and this is again Behind the Bastards,
the show where we tell you everything you don't know
about the very worst people in all of history. Now. Normally,
at least, that's what the show is about, but this
week we're talking about, you know, the Nazis, the modern Nazis,
the Nazis who are marching in the streets of America

(00:22):
right now, and who, in fact, we're marching in the
streets of Washington, d C. Just a few minutes before
this podcast was recorded. Uh. In part one of this episode,
we dissected the new Nazi movement and how it's changed
since Charlottesville. Uh. And in this episode, we're gonna be
talking about what we saw at the Unite the Right
two point o rally and and more to the point,
we're going to be trying to answer the question is

(00:43):
it a good idea to punch Nazis now? First, I
should say nobody that we're gonna be talking with today
punch Nazi. Today's rally it went pretty much as well
as these sort of things can go, but it's it's
still a question. I think it is worth debating. If
you spend any amount of time online and anti fascist
activists are goals. You will come across this Hitler quote,
probably next to a picture of Richard Spencer getting punched

(01:04):
in the face. The quote, as it is usually displayed, reads,
only one thing could have stopped our movement if our
adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day
smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement.
And it's an Adolf Hitler quote. And Hitler did say
those words, but he did not say exactly those quotes

(01:25):
in that order. Um, as is usually the case with
online quotes attributed to any sort of famous person, it's
a little bit wrong. So I'm gonna read the actual
Hitler quote, which was given during a speech in ninety three.
Only one danger could have jeopardized this development, if our
adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of
our ideas and not offered any resistance. Or alternatively, if

(01:48):
they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost
brutality the nucleus of our new movement. So you see
the difference there and the quote that's usually spread around online.
It says Hitler was basically saying the only thing that
could have stopped us was if people had beat us
up in the streets during our rise to power. The
actual quote is Hitler was saying two things. We could
have been stopped if we'd have been beaten up in

(02:09):
the streets, or if people had very clearly and very
cogently elucidated what we were about, what we wanted, and
made it clear to everyone what our goals were and
what our plans were. That could have stopped us, too,
especially if the people doing it had been nonviolent. So
Hitler's opinion on the matter is a little bit more

(02:30):
multifaceted than is usually presented, And so the question of
whether or not it's a good idea to punch Nazis
is a little bit more complicated than anti Nazi activists
like to feel. And I say this as someone who
has just done some anti Nazi activism, So I'm not
uh inherently against the idea of hitting these people either,
It's it's a complicated issue. I think there's a couple

(02:50):
of things we need to keep in mind before we
get into our discussion. One of them is that in
the nineteen twenties and thirties and German during the rise
of the Nazi Party. There were constant riots and running
street bad all across Weimar, Germany. And in the mid
nineteen twenties when this was all going on, Berlin was
known as the reddest city in Europe. As we talked
about on our Non Nazi Bastards episode, Berlin was if

(03:12):
you were gay, if you were trans, if you were progressive,
maybe the best city in the world to live in
um and it was very much not a friendly place
for Nazis. The rally we were just at had fifty
or so Nazi activists or less in several thousand anti
Nazi activists, and it wouldn't have been very different in
Berlin when the Nazis first arrived. Uh Now, the guy

(03:34):
that Hitler put in charts of Berlin when the Nazis
first started trying to make inroads into the reddest city
in Europe was Joseph Gebbel's Uh. Gebbels put in charge
of the Berlin's Nazi branch, and his whole strategy when
he gained that position was to send his very few
Berlin Nazis directly into leftist control chunk chunks of the city. Now,

(03:54):
Gebbels Nazis would fight with anti fascist activists, with communist activists,
withist activists, and there would be street battles, and the
Nazis lost a lot of these street battles. They lost
a lot of people, some of them were killed. But
the violence that this incurred helped inspire UH conservatives within
the German government to be afraid of the anti Nazi activists.

(04:17):
So it's not it's not clear that fighting Nazis in
Berlin helped stop them. Um political moderates were alienated by
the violence, and since they were closer to the fire
right Nazis than the far left anti fascists, well, the
conservatives wound up making cause with Hitler. And that's more
or less what happened. That was the Nazis planned from
the beginning and it worked out. So the question of

(04:37):
what's to be done about these Nazis is complicated. Can
violence make racists a freight again or does it only
help them? In the lead up to the first Charlottesville rally,
the fascists went in looking for conflict. In today's rally,
it was a different matter. And today I'm gonna be
talking with a round table of people that I attended
this protest with UH and we're going to try to
get to the bottom of whether or not it's a

(04:58):
good idea to hit Nazis, and we'll also be talking
about what we saw and how we feel about the day.
So that's my thing. There's a little bit of time
dilation between what the users or listeners listening are going
to hear and what has happened in the conversation. So
from 'all's perspective, I just finished reading a speech about
the whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis.

(05:20):
And from our perspective, we've been drinking for ninety minutes
or more after getting done yelling at Nazis all day,
So the listeners should be aware that nobody is sober
in this situation. And then now we're going to talk
about whether or not it's a good idea to hit
Nazis and also what happened at this Nazi protest in
d C. So let's let's go around the room and
introduce our talkers about their Nazi yelling at experiences. That

(05:46):
was good, That was a good line. I feel good
about that. Well. One of the things that we saw
early on. My name is Hannah at ginger Um. I
was on the last episode over and my pod has
his Kitchen Table cult. I host that with Kiaran dark Water.
Um So. One of the things that happened early on

(06:07):
this morning was at the Foggy Bottom metro station, right
after the Nazis got off the train. They were about
thirty or some of them, maybe less. There was this
really fantastically angry old white guy with a British accent.
He was like he was like an aging punk or something,

(06:29):
and he was calling them you wankers, over and over
and he left over the cops to try to, like
I don't know, express his rage. And he had a
bike and then he fell into them. He fell into
the bike and they were shoving him and the cops
hit him and he got kicked. He got kicked. I

(06:52):
tried to get on video and I missed it. But
whoever you are, you're our hero of the day, and
this podcast is dedicated to you. Ran the British guy
who who did one of the best leaps over a
line of cops I've ever seen to try to punch
a Nazi in the face. Regardless of what we land
on visa v hitting Nazis is a good idea. You're
a hero. And I want that to be clear to

(07:13):
everybody that I'm I think that man is a hero.
Should I ever run into you again, I'm not sure
if I would recognize you because things were pretty nuts.
But if I should ever run into you again, I
will buy you a beer, perhaps several beers. Please give
us a shout out. We'd like to buy you a beer.
All right, Nick yourself, I am Nick Wood. I am
a former marine. I'm currently an apprentice farmer and also

(07:35):
science fiction writer. And I'm kind of on team punch
Nazis until they can't see. My name is Lauren Mario.
That's my first protest ever, uh in life? So I'm
overwere with different feelings and emotions right now or what
I saw and how I failed, But punching Nazi Nazis

(07:57):
is definitely something I did not I felt at one point,
but then it gradually went away, as at the road
taste moment. What are you feeling right now? Oh man,
I don't know. Uh, I can't believe it. People are
still like doing things that my grandmother told me about.

(08:18):
You know, I'm steal fighting the fight and my grandmother
and grandfather was fighting many years ago. I felt, I
feel like, we settled this twice twice? How many fucking
times do we have to keep kicking the ship out
of the fucking Nazis? Um? But well, kind of the
way I feel, you know, you're talking about how the

(08:40):
hitler was saying that either people being very like intellectual
about it and very cojing like understanding that these guys
are evil fuckers and then just like not fighting them,
or them getting the absolute ever loving ship kicked out
of them. Like I'm kind of on team kicks the
ship out of them Nazis, because you know, they want

(09:01):
to eradicate me and everyone that looks like me from existence.
But the thing is, I think that the only way
for that to be effective is for it would have
It's more effective when like the town kicks the ship
out of the Nazis and not a team of anti
fascist kicks the shadow of the Nazis. Because when it's
like Antifa fighting twenty five Nazis or whatever is going

(09:23):
on or what you know, there's obviously the odds change.
But like when it's a small group of Antifa fighting
the Nazis, then you can you can be like, well,
there's good or bad people on both sides, or people
can be like, well, I'm violence is never the answer.
But when the entire town of you know, Washington, d C.
Gets up and like kicks the ship out of all

(09:46):
of the Nazis, what that says is, don't come to Washington,
d C. If you're a fucking Nazi. And I think
that's true. One of the things that unsettles me a
little bit about demonstrations like this, and I think is
a legitimate risk to avoid it is that, um, the
police are there. And I'm sure I know that because
one of the police officers who was photographed d DO

(10:08):
today has nazi Ish tattoos and has been photographed cosplaying
as a Nazi. Um, So I'm sure some of these
guys are sympathetic a Nazis, but most of them aren't.
There were a lot of black officers, There are a
lot of Latino officers. There were a lot of Filipino
and Asian officers. I'm sure they're not Nazis, because why
would they be. There's nothing in that ideology for them.
But the nature of a protest, in the nature of

(10:32):
the police protecting this tiny number of protesters from a
much larger number of counter protesters, means that the police
become the opposing force, and I don't know how to
fix that, but I don't think that's a healthy development
because it shouldn't be the police versus the anti fascist
trying to get at the fascists. It should be, as
you say, the community, the nation, everybody being like And

(10:56):
maybe that's a free speech thing. Maybe we need to
say that, you know, you have freedom of speech. We
don't have the freedom of speech dyl fire in a
crowded theater. Likewise, you have freedom of speech, you don't
have freedom of speech to advocate for genocide and racial cleansing.
And maybe we don't give these people a platform to
speak so the police aren't put in a situation where
they're protecting them, so that we don't have anti fascists

(11:17):
yelling at police because they want to get to the Nazis. Um.
I don't know what the solution is, but it's clearly
it can be done better than it's being done that
I think that kind of on that topic, one of
the things that would help is basically, so to preface this,
we have seen multiple situations where the cops go a

(11:39):
little off script and funk up the counter protesters. We
saw that ship in Portland where a cop fire tear
escranade at the back of somebody's head and we've got
pictures of the cops after that happened, critically the back
of his head, but they're granted, like they're like, this
is fucking cool. And the thing is that happens to

(12:00):
anti fascists and black lives matter and anyone fighting these
assholes net all the time, the cops will funk up.
The people fighting the Nazis are the racists or whoever
whatever fucking assholes out there. But we don't ever ever
see the cops break rank when it comes to dealing
with the Nazis, when it comes to protecting the fucking Nazis.

(12:24):
And do I understand that they have their orders and
I understand that their jobs there to protect the Nazis,
But what the thing that really needs to happen If
the cops don't want to be the bad guys here,
if they don't like hearing those chants at the protests
of who do you protect? Who do you serve? Like
they got real mad and there that one, and I mean,
I just I like that, but they if they don't
want to hear those protests, then they need to be

(12:46):
just as willing to occasionally break the rules and funk
up the Nazis, or let the Nazis get sucked up
as they are to funk up the counter protesters. It's
like it's again one of those axiomatic things. Either they
need to be perfectly disciplined at fully protect acting the
Nazis and the anti fascists like they need to be
either either that they need to be utterly impartial mediators

(13:08):
in this situation, which they are not, or they need
to let the Nazis get fucked up sometimes so the
Nazis don't get to think the police are on their side.
One of the things that is really telling about that
observation is you know who is vulnerable and who is
not in that situation. The ones that the police are

(13:29):
not going to break the rules around are the people
who have the actual power. When the police are willing
to break the rules, they know they're not going to
have consequences for it because the people that they are
breaking rank over are the people who are vulnerable in

(13:51):
this situation. So, like with the situation in Portland, the
anti fascist protesters are the vulnerable people here. And the
fact that the Nazi sky metrocar of their own today
shows that the system of power ultimately is reinforcing their message.

(14:16):
And I think so this is one of the things
that scares me is um. I am very sympathetic to
the anti fascists. I'm very sympathetic to activists today. When
there are chants like uh, you know who who do
you protect? Or when there are a chance to fund
the police, I understand the motivation because the police in

(14:38):
this country. I think if you're a reasonably well informed person,
you understand there's problems with law enforcement in this country.
There's issues with how it goes down. The fascist activists
and less these activists than other activists have been very
good at getting the police on their side. Um, and
there are there's evidence of this fact. In March thirteenth,

(14:59):
the Holy and Security Analysts, in an email to local
law enforcement in Tennessee, noted that the Traditional Workers Party,
which is one of the groups that was behind the
first United the Right protest quote, typically is not the issue,
but rather opposing groups. In April, police in Georgia, and
this is April police enjoyed the revealed they planned for
massive violence at a local rally based on rumors that

(15:21):
were spread by a far right wing three per center,
which is like a militia group Facebook account that was
claiming that there would be twelve thousand anti fascists at
the party or at the the protests, and that they
would be looting and rioting and whatnot. The police trust
these people more than they trust the anti fascist activists.
And I'm sure some of that has to do with

(15:42):
the fact that a lot of police officers or a
number of police officers have biases of their own, but
something best to do with the fact that all of
the racists at these rallies are nice to the police,
and all the anti fascists are yelling at them. Um.
And I'm not trying to be like, feel sorry for
the police or whatever, because that is not my my concern.
But there are some concerns to keep in mind, including

(16:05):
the fact that California police in a variety of counties
have been recorded working with fascist activists against anti fascist activists. Um.
There was one case of a fascist activist who had
been arrested on domestic violence charge and the police, rather
than investigating him on that, started questioning him on trying
to get the names and identities of anti fascist activists

(16:27):
based on their pictures and then assured him we're not
looking at you as a perpetrator, We're looking at you
as a victim. There was a fascist that they were questioning. Yeah,
a fascist they were questioning. So it is clear that
their charm campaign against the police has not been ineffective.
And again not to defend the police, but if you're
just getting yelled at by these people all day long,

(16:47):
I can see why the tiny group of folks who
are being polite to you, why that might be more compelling.
And this is not a right or wrong issues. Is
purely a tactical issue of what is more effective, and
I do you feel like the anti fascist side of
the equation could more effectively dialogue with the police to
let them know, we're not happy with how the situation

(17:08):
is going down, but we're not angry at you. We're
trying to get to that. I don't know what they're right.
You're really walking a fine line there with home policing.
So it's a it's a it's a it's a very
valid concern, and it's a very real recommendation because it
is effective, But it also is the sort of thing

(17:29):
that like, yes, this anger is justified like like like
attracts like. I have a couple of thoughts here that
relate to how this stuff interplays with activists and race.
So I think that you're not wrong, and that in
a completely sterile environment, you know, these ideal physics experiments environments,

(17:53):
I would I would be like, I would say, you're
probably right that that they need to court the police
and get them like to see about the anti fascists
is like the ones fighting for democracy and all that stuff,
because presumably if the police actually believe any of their oaths,
then they would they would go along with that. But
I think it's kind of it ends up being another
one of the things that's very different when you were

(18:14):
talking with mostly white people and when you're talking with
mostly black people. I feel the same way about the
argument as to whether or not to employ violence, because
for black people, the police are a threat to our
fucking existence most of the time. I grew up with cops.
My dad was a cop. I grew up around cops.
I used to feel safe around cops, and that was

(18:35):
entirely incorrect. Then, like, they are not here for us,
They are dangerous to us all the time. So the
thing is that like, the fact that they're dangerous to
us in this context as anti fascist protesters isn't different
to me than like every day, So like, I don't
care that they're against me, because they're always against me.

(18:57):
I could get shot because they thought my phone looked
as fishes. However, when anti fascist groups are primarily white,
or when they're in places like Portland's, or when they're
in like there, there are places where most the anti
fascists are white and the cops are probably white and
all of this other ship, Like, I kind of have
a little more of that idea that you know, maybe
the white and anti fascists should like get in good

(19:19):
with the police, because the thing is, their relationship with
the police is different, and it kind of relates to
the way I feel about the argument about whether or
not people should employ violence. It is all well and
good for white activists to talk to each other about
whether or not they should employ violence, because the violent
rhetoric of the Nazis is by and large not aimed
at them. So if there's a way that that mostly

(19:42):
white people in this country, that is mostly white people
um or at least a majority white people, could get
together and find a way to fight back against this
and push back and change the world without violence. Then
do it, but understand that for the rest of us,
this is never not been a fight to the death.

(20:03):
It's just a slow fight to the death. And I
think that's a basic entry level requirement for understanding to like,
quote unquote be a good ally is to get that
piece of it. And you were talking earlier about what
they ANDIFI discuss about, like who's arrestable? Yeah, well that

(20:24):
was that was a Standing Rock thing. I don't know
because I'm not privy to antiplause. In turn, to catch
the listener up. When I was at Standing Rock, there
were a number of posters around this saying are you
are you arrestable? Sign up for a variety of events
because a lot of the Native American activists or Indigenous
American activists who were active at that event had been

(20:45):
arrested a number of times already, and if they were
arrested anymore, they already had pending court cases. They could
not continue to be in the front lines dealing with
the police, and so they were asking for There were
a lot of that standing young white, mostly early twenties
early teens activists who had showed up. These are people
who could stand have a couple of arrests on their record.
It wouldn't suck their lives up. And so they were saying, essentially,

(21:08):
use your privilege as a middle class white kid, because
it's not going to be bad for you if you
get arrested. So so stand in the front of the line,
be in the front of these actions that we're doing
to try to delay the construction of this pipeline. I
don't know if that's part of anti fad strategy because nothing. Actually, um,
I was very right after the inauguration, I was very
interested in things like Black Block tactics and the groups

(21:31):
like that. One of the things when I was looking
into Black Block, one of the things they were saying
was people doing black black tactics need to be white,
and probably meant because white dudes can get away with
fucking anything. And like, if someone's got to run in
and punch the Nazis and get in there and push
the police around and break windows and set shot on fire,
because you know, kinetic disturbance is part of what runs revolution,

(21:56):
like make it the white people do it, and so
like I didn't get involved in Black Block because I
knew that if I, well, it might have been bad
for my wife and her career. But like, but be like,
if I got involved with black Block, it might be
fun for me, but like, and it might be satisfying
for me, But the very first time I ran into
the police, I run the risk of being killed or

(22:19):
imprisoned or just like a bunch of real bad ship
happening to me. And I don't. I have My life
affects other people's lives. And if it were just about
if I were single and unattached, I'd be doing that
ship all day. But I don't get to do that
because I have to care about other people. Yeah. Right,
So they say consequences for you as a human are

(22:40):
low punch Nazis. But if you're in a place where
you do not have the privilege of being able to
afford that risk, there are other ways you can be
smart to resist. There is an additional dimension to it,
which is that, um, you have to consider it's not

(23:00):
just okay, it's punching Nazis safe for you, Because if
if punching Nazis were always good, and punching Nazis was
safe for you, then if it's safe for you to
punch the Nazi, punch a Nazi. But there's an optics
battle that is being fought. There's a battle larger than
the sympathy of the police, the sympathy of the nation
where people stand and that is it is specifically the
sympathy of white people. Well, yeah, I mean, for damn sure,

(23:24):
what I was talking about this morning when we were
recording about how campaigning with for North m indoor knocking
and like hearing like moderates talking about, Yeah, this Charlottesville
was ugly and these people are inciting violence, So we're
going to vote against them, We're going to vote for
the Dems. And so that's another thing, is like, yeah,

(23:46):
we have to be aware of the optics of this,
and like, are we inciting violence? Are we like going
low when they go low? Are we going high? Like
are we meeting them at their level and giving them
the terms of the debate? And are we giving the
Nazis what they want? Because I think that's a valid
question to ask, and I there are a number of

(24:08):
quotes from and again in the first part of this,
I read through a lot of their conversations, so we
do know a lot of things that they've said. We
know for one that they're embarrassed at the idea of
being outnumbered and being needed to be protected by the police.
I found this conversation in a yeah and again, there
were at least a couple of thousand anti fascist activists,
and don't you find it interesting that the cops were

(24:30):
not protecting any anti fascist protesters that when you saw
much larger dubs of anti fascist protesters marching in the streets,
they the cops were nowhere to be found. But when
it's twelve Nazis, cops all around them securing them, Nazis
got like a double row of cops protecting them from protesters,

(24:52):
and the yeah, and then when and then when a
crowd of anti fascist protesters as gathered around to yell
at then we got surrounded by three more rows of
cops on the backside of our group. They started like
sneaking up and it wasn't they weren't protecting us. So yeah,
I do think the question now that when people I

(25:14):
think the larger question of how we treat police folks
on the lattreet. Police is fine, but the question of
who do you protect, like, why is that? Why is
it that a handful of Nathis get so like so
much taxpayer money in terms of protection by police, and
that you know, ten twenty times the amount of anti

(25:35):
fascist protesters get nothing because the system is designed to
support them. I mean, I don't want to say it,
but doesn't it seem that way? It does, And again
I want to make it clear, No, none of what
I'm saying is a moral argument in favor of the police,
because I'm not. And none of it is a moral
argument favored of the tactics. What I'm asking is our
favor of the fascist What I'm asking is is it

(25:57):
an effective tactic to punch knots these? Does it bring
us closer to our goal if they're not being Nazis? Well,
here's um, you know, because we want to make compared
you know, in a lot of ways, it's good to
make historical comparisons between it's happening now and what happened
in Viromar, Germany, because holy sh it, it's very fun.
We're following them, following the playbook. There are even instances

(26:19):
where people made quotes that like if you said, did
this someone say this in Vimar, Germany? Or you know,
like America, you're like artic guys please. Yeah. Yeah, so
there's a lot of value of that. But here's one
of the ways in which it's different. The Nazis in Vimar,
Germany were actually tough fuckers. Yeah, they all survived the

(26:42):
trenches in World War One, which is probably the worst
combat human beings have lived through. Yeah, so when so
when fighting them in the streets, you know, if you're
not in a situation where everyone's fighting in the streets,
when it's just like anti fascist and fascist fighting and
both sides are equally dangerous, in the sides are equally competent,
and they're both they're they're all I mean to some extent,

(27:03):
it's kind of like when the punks fight the skinheads,
Like both of those groups of people are well used
to beating the ship out of each other. That might
not be very effective because if you punch a Nazi
who's used to getting punched, he's just like, okay, I
got punched today, sweet, then like write that down if
he's a proud boy, but he probably isn't. And that's cereals, right, yeah, yeah,

(27:27):
because like you obviously can't get your nose broken if
you're naming cereals, And that's kind of the place where
I kind of find a little bit of a wrinkle
in that and when talking about that, because we were
like optics is a definite discussion. But also the morale
of Okay, I think of things as like, in tactical sense,
the nasties are my they are my enemies, so I

(27:48):
think of them like, so the enemy's morale is important
because breaking the enemies morales that you win. Um, it's
not actually about destroying them necessarily, it's about making them
never want to fight you again. And with a lot
of these fun years, they don't know how to fight.
They don't they're not they're not Nazis in the sense
that the Nazis and Rye or Germany, where they aren't

(28:08):
tough bastards their Larber scariot that exactly, they're Larber's and
so like when they're afraid of being outnumbered and terrified,
we need to lean into that because one of the
problems is that, like, it would it be great if
there was like a Women's March style protests where it's
like pretty peaceful, everybody's getting along, it's mostly just a
giant rolling party, and we're like, yeah, there's you know,

(28:31):
just like everybody's there. Everbody's been a great time. There's
thousands of people. That's great when it happens. There was
the Queer Resistance Dance party. It was it wasn't thousands,
but it was big. Yeah, And those are good and
they're they're great for the optics and it's really good.
But it's also good and it's great for every and
it's great time. And that's another part of it too,
is it's great to see people having a great time

(28:52):
just you know, peacefully resist in the Nazis. But it's
also effective, you know, like for those of us that
are going to be screaming at the Nazis and it's
not going to be a peaceful live at all, Like
even if no one's getting punched, it's like not going
to be a peaceful live standing in front of a
crowd of anti fascists for those people, Like the optics
are not gonna be on our side anyway, because we've

(29:13):
got these civility suckers like being like, well, you're not
being nice. You shouldn't be swearing at it, Like okay,
we've already lost the optics battle in that regard. In
terms of like the moderate times on my side. So
what's the next most effective part of my tactic. Well,
the next most effective thing that I'm worried about is
the morale of my enemy. And when these guys are

(29:34):
literally weak little ships, like they're just lar birds, they're
Nazi larber's. Yeah, And I think I think at this point,
what with what you're talking about, one of the key
things is like endurance, Like they are really enchanted by
the idea of having it be a one and done takeover,

(29:55):
like being able to just like overpower something. And that's
that's been part of the the whole mission since it
was first invented. And UM, being able to get large
numbers of people to show up consistently over time and
yell them down is going to show them that we

(30:18):
can outlast them. And I do think I think over
time is critical. So I'm gonna I'm gonna read for
just a minute here, UM to go over some stuff
I found in their own chats. One is from a
January eighteen thread about a rally where Richard Spencer and
thirty fascists had to be escorted past the crowd of
two thousand protesters. This is what the Nazis said about
that rally. Quote first guy in the threat, these are

(30:41):
brute those are brutal odds. With enough discipline and hopefully
a halfway decent decent police force, we can survive. The
first response was due to it takes rule of law
to protect thirty versus two thousand. Discipline means nothing at
that point. The only thing keeping us alive is their
fear of the police. Now, there was an other post
that I found in a Facebook threat by Cat Snyder,

(31:03):
who was marching today I think in the anti fat
or in the fascist march. UH. Cat is an activist
within Jason Kessler circle. She is a fascist activist UM.
She posted in May when they were planning the rally
that we just all got from that she had attended
a Trump impeachment town hall near her home and called
it quote absolutely frightening and said that quote the money

(31:25):
in that room, the power, the numbers. So she was
very scared by the number of people that she saw
in opposition to her, and she was also very scared
by the number of people that she saw a demonstrations
against folks like Richard Spencer. And my question is, since
optics are such an important part of the battle, is

(31:47):
it more valuable that we be seen in Moss resisting
than it is that we physically confront these people, because
physical confrontation breeds, if not empathy, then at least more
empathy than we want the Nazis to have. And the
person I want to pose that question too first is
Laurent over here. He's been quite quiet and just finished

(32:08):
attending his first protest. So, Luran, sorry to put you
on the spots. Wow you did? I did? I put
you really on the spot? You really did? Uh? Boy,
I tell you that, yeah. We basically I'm just open

(32:30):
William still like I, um, I can't believe it, Like
I really can't believe what I just experienced, the whole
from the beginning to the end to the going back
and seeing the costs presence, uh, and knowing how I
already feel about the costs as it is, especially when
it comes of my safety. You know, I know I
never feel like it here for my safety, Like I

(32:52):
don't want to depend on costs for anything as far
as my safety goes. I think if you were repeat
the yeah, you set up your mind instead and basically
asking so the Nazis are clearly demoralized by the fact
that they're outnumbered, right, Is it better to just outnumber

(33:14):
them or do we need to physically confront them? Do
we need to be violent with them? Or is it
best to just show up and be consistently a show
of our numbers against theirs? Oh okay, well, yeah, definitely
I felt from my observation today was watching them, A
lot of them flee as as the crowd got bigger.

(33:35):
You know, I guess they don't like intimidation. They can't
stand to be intimidated, which is uh yeah, Which was
what I really noticed the most today was that I
say a lot of them wrapping the flags up, moving
of the way, like the larger the crowds got the
latter it guy, A lot of them weren't, like, don't
if they uh they completed buy in, or if they

(33:55):
bought in and didn't realize I couldn't stand the heat
or does that say, uh, he got a little hot
in the kitchen, the hay to get out my kitchen
wasn't even it was hotting what they would have spec against.
It was only maybe that fifty of them at all,
and they don't didn't even show up at the same time.
From the watching the beginning of the march to the
end of the march. You only have a small station

(34:17):
jump out from the beginning, and he had others followed
their own, and there were a lot of this from
just observation, I don't know about actual numbers, there seemed
to be a fair number that we're undercover, that we're
wandering around, and that is kind of telling that they
were unwilling to show themselves with the main group. They

(34:39):
were unwilling to actually participate, but they were there with
sticks and umbrellas in hand to use his weapons in
case they got the chance. And explain when you pointed
this out to me, and I man slain to you
that I didn't think it was a problem because I'm
an asshole, and I was completely wrong because they wound
up being the secret Nazis that later led to almost

(35:01):
a fight with the police. Right. So, Um, what I
saw was there was a guy with a red rain
jacket with the hood pulled up really high and it
was zipped up over his face, and he was carrying
an umbrella, and he was wearing a backpack, and he
was with another guy who was all in black. Could
have looked like an antiphop but clearly UM was not

(35:23):
operating with them. And that was what I thought, as
I just said he was all in black. He was
like all in like you know, under armor or whatever.
And he had a like a cane and was walking around.
And these are all three white guys. And there was
a third who was also wearing a hood and um
a bandanna, and he had a like a wooden huge
wooden stick stuck into his backpack, underneath his backpack holding

(35:45):
it up. And it was like looking at them, I
was like, three white dudes, completely independent, no ANTIFA like
paraphernalia on them, Like you know, the Antipha was really
persistent about like don't take pictures, don't take pictures if
you want to support only groups and their own groups.
And these guys were not saying anything like that, and
they were really kind of skittish, and I was like,

(36:10):
we have undercover Nazis here, look at this um And
after I saw that, I started seeing them everywhere and
uh later when we got out from dinner, that's what
we That guy in the red jacket and his friend
were the ones that were being surrounded by a crowd
of Black Lives Matter protesters. So can you describe the

(36:32):
experience that we had going to dinner and then after dinner, yes,
so we walked out of older bit Girl. We figured
this ship was over by then, so we we we
did our marching, we did our yelling. The Nazis left
and we started raining. We ate some enchiladas when we
got drunk. So we come out and uh and we
see that up the street there's this crowd and it's

(36:56):
mostly people of color and they're angry and um. In
our morning recording, Matt talked about the flag of Kikistan, Kikistan,
So for people who are for thank you for doing
the reggaet morning, for people who are, for whatever reason
turning into the second part of our episode and have

(37:18):
not listened to the first. The Kikistan flag is the
flag of a bunch of Nazi nerd gamers based on
like keck, which is essentially how Korean say l O
L and like. They made this flag for their fake
country of people who were putting out memes for the lulls.
And the flag is based off of the Kriegsmrine flag
from World War two, so it's based off of a

(37:39):
Nazi flag, the German navy flag from World War two.
It's a Nazi they love the flag that's inverted in
inverted colors, right, essentially that and the Nazis love this
is why they do fourteen eighty eight, which is where
like the fourteen words and eight eight is like Hitler
h is the eighth letter of the words or a
letter of the alphabet, So Kyle Hitler is eight because

(38:02):
it's like if you took a swastika and like filled
in the spaces, it's like a digital eight eight. And
they're literally that lame. I'd heard a totally different thing
because it was Hyo Hitler And honestly, yeah, yeah, So
we saw the Kikistan flag and we walk up and

(38:24):
we see that there's a bunch of people who are
really agitated and there's a double line of cops between
them and these two guys, and we asked what's going on,
and these guys are like, oh, whether there's these like
two low Nazis here and we've got this flag and
they're just hanging out and all these cops are protecting them,

(38:45):
and we're angry that the cops are protecting them. Um,
and some aggressive chance they yeah, so there was some
aggressive chance. I got started. Um, we're not going to
name names. Definitely wasn't me. And and by aggressive it
was we are many, their few, and who do you serve?

(39:05):
Who do you protect? And in the cars one when
you first explained that chant, by the way, Nick, you
you meant that it is sort of like aimed at
the Nazis. But then I realized as it took off,
I was like, oh, the police think we're talking about
them and had kind of work for the police. There
were less police than angry people there, and they got
they got concerned when that one took off, which is

(39:28):
be careful what you chant, which is if you're chanting,
if you're a chanter, if you're chanting, be careful what
you chant and when you chant it. Although I support
your chant, by the way. So when this group of
people started shouting at the cops saying who do you serve?
Who do you protect, we suddenly realized that on the

(39:51):
other side of the street there was a whole bunch
of there were a whole bunch of cop cars pulling
up in their whole bunch of cops on bikes showing up,
and they blocked us into a crosswalk area. So on
one side you had double row cops and then you
had a bunch of protesters, and then on the other
side of the crosswalk you had a triple and cops
backed up by like multiple police vehicles. And if you

(40:15):
haven't been to a protest before, one of the things
that police will do that is very intelligent strategy. We
have bicycle cops will use their bicycles to form a
physical barrier and then stand behind or in front of
their bicycles, but there will essentially be bicycle wheel to
bicycle wheel and make a wall of bicycles and then
stand to hold them up. And it's a very effective
way of creating a mobile barricade. So they had a

(40:36):
double row of that plus another row of police behind them,
plus backup in cars. So it was a very intimidating
situation and it seemed like kind of over the top
for two Nazis, given that we were yelling at them
because of a kick a stand flag, and it was

(40:57):
just a very tense situation. And these were the guy
is that i'd recognized room before. Yeah, you nailed it,
and I figured they were just anti FO people who
weren't with the main group or whatever, because I'm the bestard.
One other thing we saw, um it was when we
were winding down after part one of yelling at Nazis

(41:18):
when we were thinking about, you know, hey, there are
five thousand people here. We can we've been doing this
all day probably a piece. Yeah, and so, and we
were gathering we were grouping up and what did you drink?
When we're gathering up, we were trying to find wrong
because we want to go get our damn drinks. And
a guy came up to us and said, hey, there's

(41:38):
two Nazis over there that are like completely unprotected. Um,
they've got no one, like they're like they're They're just
there and they're like talking and ship. And the thing
is at first, okay, I was a marine. I am
was made to be a hammer. All of my problems
look like nails. So I'm sitting here like, oh cool,
where the Nazis. I'd like to go hit some Nazis.

(41:59):
These guys are unprotected Nazis punched the Nazis And that
was my initial reaction. And then it was like, um,
and then I don't remember what some one of my
compatriots here said something. And then I suddenly realized that
guy that told us that was probably an agitator and
he probably wanted us to start it was a provocateur.
He was this like middle aged white dude who was alone,

(42:22):
not working with anybody, and he gave us the information
and disappeared and then he ran and like he was
probably also a Nazi. And it's hard man. When you
go to enough events like this, you get very paranoid.
Because number one, there were a lot of people in
the crowd with the journal So when when this all
first started, just to explain to the listener, there was

(42:44):
we were standing instead of essentially a metro station in DC,
and the Nazis came out of the metro station and
there was a line of police protecting their route of march,
and there were anti fascist activists all around the outside
of that yelling at these people, and journalists and journalists
and the among the crowd of journalists there were undercover
police and we knew they were because they had badges

(43:06):
clipped their belts. So if some of what we have
said in the last little bit here sounds paranoid, it
is because if you attend a lot of protests, paranoia
occurs because things that induce paranoia happen in protests, and
sometimes you're wrong with your paranoia, but oftentimes you are not.
Hana was not wrong in her paranoia, and I was

(43:27):
wrong in my counter and her paranoia. You thank you.
My paranoia is always right. And you know what else
is right is the wonderful, wonderful companies that support this
podcast with their products and or services which we do well.
Not yet not, although I will say, if there is
one anti fascist food product made out of corn based

(43:49):
food like substances, it is the Derrito's company and their
delightful products that is actually food food based. It's synthetic
food food based. But cheese was consulted for some other
products endorses and listen to these here ads. So we're back. Um,

(44:17):
So I want to bring us around two. We have
a big question and try to answer at the end
of this if it's answerable. But one thing I want
to get to now is do we think the Nazis
won or lost in this rally? And obviously they were outnumbered.
I do want to read a couple of of tweets
Jason Kessler put up in the immediate aftermath of this,

(44:41):
because those are pertinent where they treated from inside of
bush he was hiding in no the metrocar that he
was protected in. He was hiding in a bush at
sometimes about something. Really. Yeah, I was flying around Twitter.
Someone was like that was that was the last year
rally was like spy, he was like spicy. He came
out of the bush. Yeah, just Homer faded in. I

(45:03):
think the overall, I mean, I'm sure that tweets will
shed some light on how they think they did, but
I think they lost. And the reason I think they
lost is that they were very clearly intimidated there. They
looked stupid, they looked pathetic. They didn't get to get
in any of these altercations, they didn't get to feel
like victims, but they very clearly piste off d C,

(45:28):
and d C showed up in fucking force. Fuck the
Black Lives Matter flag came onto the field that something
at one point and people start chanting black Lives Matter,
and then lightning increased the sky. The fucking gods were
angry at the Nazis. It was such a moment, it
was so perfect. I was like, Okay, I don't know

(45:48):
if everyone here and that happened, I'd be like, or
I'm going home now and I'm gonna hide. Oh. The
Black Lives Matter flag was heralded by lightning in thunder.
I'm going home. What kinda forever? So here's what Jason
Kessler tweeted, thank you to all of the law enforcement
officers that protected free speech and public safety today at

(46:10):
hashtag ut R too. The whole thing has been a
logistical challenge from how but we proved we could do
it peacefully despite all the naysayers. Another a couple of
other posts. One of them is a thing he retweeted
from an activist named Hannah and Nattinson, who was I
think one of the white nationalist protesters here to women,
Yeah a lady. Yeah, people should be talking about how

(46:32):
white women are really doing their part to uphold this
non They sure are. They're not. They're not falling down
in the racism fascism supporting department. Can I just take
a second here, as a white woman to other white
women who are listening to this. We're all racist and
we have to do the fucking work to overcome that
because it has been bred into us and into our socialization,

(46:58):
and we are complicent. It's the exact same thing that
likes at all. Two men, just that you don't get
to do this, not wo man, bullshit don't give me that,
so I should say here I was wrong. Hanna Natanson
is apparently a reporter, apparently with the Washington Post. Well,

(47:19):
here's what she tweeted. So here I'm going to read
out what she tweeted. I'm the one responsible. By the way,
none of you did anything wrong because I gave you
all bad information because we're drinking. We're we're drinking, and
we're kind of but here's what it's still relevant. Well,
and here's your tweet, so we can we can comment
after we read. I read this tweet encircled by reporters.

(47:40):
Kessler says he is not a white supremacist, but a
quote civil rights advocate for white people. He said white
Americans are unfairly discriminated against, pointing in part to the
removal of Alex Jones from social media sites. So so
then why doesn't the a c O. You hire him?
I want questions, No, no, ask him. It's very straus
to me that at that as a white, straight, sis

(48:03):
gender able bodied male, he feels so oppressed, and that
the thing that he points to towards like the root
of his oppression is oh Alex Jones personal He was
not kicked off Twitter, right, Like he was still on Twitter.
Am I crazy social media? So he was from some
but not Twitter. It was everybody but Twitter, right. Yeah,

(48:26):
he took some of the ship down after everybody yelled,
and he was sort of kind of without any sort
of deniability, urging that people harassed the family members of
children who were murdered during that. So that's all he
was just he was just harassing the family murdered children.
Sandy Hook, Oh, well, that's exactly all all that Alex

(48:49):
Jones was guilty of was urging. Was was was saying
that the family members of small children who were murdered
by a mass shooter were part of a false flag
operation and urging his follower is to harass them. But
so I think I don't think anyone listening to this
podcast about terrible people in history is going to be
on the side of Alex Jones, so we shouldn't belabor
the point. I do want to talk about this person's

(49:10):
report if I just find it curious that like that
is the evidence. It's like what people are repressed with evidence.
Alex Stones, does she give a follow up tweet? I'm
looking for that right now. I would like to read
her Washington Post, Violine past tomorrow about this, Okay, Yeah,
let's keep it on. Those mentions be real interesting. I

(49:32):
heard you say munchies, and then I realized you meant mentioned. Yeah.
She had some other stuff that was fair ish, like
where she said, like the United the Right marches of
all left town. This is earlier in the day. They're
always supposed to begin at five thirty. Well in DC,
tony marchers listened to a brief Kessler speech and talk
to reporters. One man told me the Washington Post is
Jewish owned and it doesn't speak to Jews before he
walked away. So she did. She did note that I

(49:55):
don't know part of this maybe the fact that Twitter
is a good way to spread links to new stories,
but not a good way to do journalism, And so
her quote out of context isn't great. It's really really
hard to do reporting on the ground and keep track
of everything and tweet about it at the same time.
And so I'm sure there's a lot missing. I guess
I can give or you can kind of give her
a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. I

(50:16):
don't want to be mean to Hannah because I don't
know this lady and maybe maybe she's a fair mind,
and maybe what kind of situation was enough? This is
I did. I did? That was unfair. I want to
see her piece tomorrow and see what she actually says
in her report insinuation with drawn. Yeah. But Kessler retweeted that,
and then later he retweeted another post from UTR hurricoine

(50:38):
hurricane hashtag white civilization something or other, white civil rights.
They resemble a hurricane. Uh, it looks like a picture
of a young lady. Hurricanes are darksome. So this is
your This is your young lady who seems to be
supporting Jason Kessler, who was marching with him today. One
of the women who was marching with him days who said,
we just destroyed three large pizzas in the motor But

(51:00):
before I pass out, I want to say this. I
feel vindicated. I was called every nasty name in the
book for believing in the hashtag white Civil Rights Rally
and the DC Police Department in Jason Kessler and peaceful
free speech. Good night, Okay. I want to say something
on that point. Um. The idea that if you are
opposed by people, then you're doing the right thing is

(51:24):
really pervasive in in particular in conservative evangelical circles. And
I don't can speak for the al right, um, but
I feel like there's a lot of overlap where this
there's this idea of well, like Jesus was killed in
the world, and so in the world you have trouble.
So if you are following Jesus correctly, you will be

(51:46):
opposed and you will meet a lot of conflict. And
so that kind of mentality um reinforces the sense of
moral rightness for these people. It's sort of like, how
I firmly believe that we should reply these cows with
horses and vice versa, and that that's that that's something
I believe religiously. And the fact that everyone disagrees with me,

(52:07):
I take is proof that my ideas are righteous and right,
but may just be proof that I'm a crazy person.
Secret it's not a non secretor it's a horse and
it should be what we make hamburgers out of. Can
I ask a question, absolutely, what do you guys feel?
It's like, so in case people are listening and they're like,
what's the makeup of the room. You have two black men,

(52:29):
one black woman, a white woman, and a white man.
What do you guys feel that these are these are
your fellow white people, Like, how does that feel for
you guys? Like knowing that, like and they are doing
this because they are trying to assert like their race
there their superiority, kind of a kind of like on

(52:51):
your behalf. What does that experience like for you as
white people? I mean, Hannah, if you want to answer first,
you're welcome to. I have a think. Okay, So that's
an interesting question, and I appreciate you asking, very curious. Yeah.
So on one hand, it's like, you don't represent me,
shut up, And there were science that we saw that

(53:11):
said that too, right, um. And on the other hand,
it's I do not believe that guilt is a useful emotion.
I have been on the receiving end of a lot
of apologies from people who treated me shittily when I
got divorced or when I was like in the process
of leaving the cult I grew up in, who have
now come around and they're like, I'm so sorry I

(53:32):
was horrible to you. And my perspective on that is
like that doesn't mean no good. Do better. And so
for me as a white person, if I feel guilty,
I need to relate that experience to how guilt has
felt when I have received it from people who are
apologetic and feel guilty. And my job is not to

(53:53):
sit and feel guilty, it's to do better. So I
am going to work on educating myself. It is an ongoing,
life long task. Every society and every community I've ever
been a part of was created in some form or
another on racist beliefs. Homeschooling, Christian evangelicalism, white churches, the college.

(54:18):
I went to all these places where I had very
very few people of color on purpose, and so I
feel like the burden is on me to correct that.
And I've got a long journey ahead of me. But
showing up for these kinds of things is part of
that journey. And I don't want brownie points because I'm

(54:39):
just now doing the bare minimum that I should have
been doing all along. But it's a long process. So
but the whole thing is like, these guys don't represent me,
and I'm here to tell them that and uh to
do my moral duty. And I mean, I'm just like so,
I'm I'm a I'm a big white I very tall,

(55:01):
very broad, and I'm very white, and I have for
a long time. One of my hobbies was just lying
to my friends about things, because when I talk about
stuff in a in an authoritative manner, people believe me
because I'm a big white guy. And that's just the
way our society is set up that if as a
big white guy, you sit and you start telling facts

(55:21):
or whatever, people will listen to you even if it lies,
which is why most of our I don't know, we
can get into the political into this at some other point,
but I have the idea that white people would need
a civil rights rally as a white dude is inconceivable
to me because I have had a lot of difficulties

(55:42):
in my life, and I know a lot of other
white men who have had a lot of difficulties in life,
very tough lifes, very painful life. None of it has
to do with the fact that we're white guys, um.
And the fact that these people are saying that that's
a problem that we have is very frustrating to me.
And it's more frustrating than you talk to men men's
rights activists, and I don't know with those people either,
but there are injustices for men based on women, like

(56:05):
the fact that men who have children if they go
to court with their female child bearing partner or whatever
term you choose to use, have more difficulty when in
custoy or whatever. There are legitimate legal issues there that
can be addressed or whatever. But some of the points
there's a reason that that system privileges the child bearing partners.

(56:29):
But yes, but there's a debate to be had there.
There there's no rational debate by which you can believe
white people, in particularly white men, are disadvantaged in the
United States of America because look at this country, like
walk outside to go on, go on a walk, Like
it's very clear in my experience as a human when

(56:52):
the white people are like, yeah, but this isn't a problem.
There are more important things to focus on. I'm like, yeah,
I'm going to ignore you because you're You've always been
wrong in my experience, because unless you have suffered loss
of privilege, you don't have any idea what the other
side is experiencing at all. Well, and I'm a I'm

(57:13):
a child of Hollywood, like most of the planet are
you startlet no, I'm like, I'm a no. I was
a kid who was raised by movies, movies and television.
Like I'm a child who was raised by films, and
one thing American cinema has done is a great job
of convincing me that the underdogs are usually the people

(57:35):
that you should root for, and the underdogs in this
society where and are not white guys, like that's for sure,
not who is being fucked over in this society. That
goes back to my point with like, who are the
cops behaving for? You protect? Who do you protect? Who
do you serve? They're protecting the white supremacists and they're

(57:59):
not protecting the people who are against white supremacy, So
the system is is stacked, It's clear well, and that
that brings us back to my initial question, which is
not is it right or wrong to punch Nazis, but
is it does it bring us closer to our goal

(58:19):
of a society where Nazis have no political power, which
is I think most people listening can agree Nazis shouldn't
have any political power, White supremacists should not have any
kind of political power. The k occasion on a political power.
Does violence to them bring us closer to that goal
than peaceful resistance at this point in the debate, And

(58:40):
that is the question I want to go around as
a roundtable and get people's thoughts on. So why don't
we start with you, Bridget the person holding the mic. Yeah,
I'm holding the mic. I'm yeah. I my name is Bridget.
I I don't know. I mean it's hard for me.
You guys saw me out there. I get emotional, and
I think that for me, it's I may intellectually know

(59:05):
that punching Nazis and like screaming in their face is
not getting us closer to being free, but there's something
cathartic about it, and my like primate brain, that's a
part of my brain that's just like, yes, hit them,
punch them, Like, I'm not concerned about whether or not
it gets us closer to our goal. You know. I'm

(59:25):
an organizer, so I think about things in terms of
what is our you know, our shared goal. But there
is something, there's something, a visceral that happens that almost
makes me turn that part of my logical brain off
and I'm just like I want him get hit, and
it's like I become a I become like man. It's

(59:46):
like when we were out there, I mean, like you
and I got in that argument with a guy, and
because we show these people the people, y'all listening right now,
and we actually have the audio of like destroying him
and want to video. We were we were at this
protest and we were watching these people with the Kaka

(01:00:07):
Stan flag it surrounded And while that was happening, there
was an elderly guy who was clearly not from the
United States and did not speak English as a first language,
and was like, it's like, to be clear, I'm familiar
with him. He's unwell. He's fine, he's a regular regulator
and he's mentally unwell. And his his signs were all

(01:00:29):
about circumcision. And there was a young white guy in
a three piece suit and a dude filming him interviewing
this guy about his sign he got on the urban
fucking copy of a suit I've seen Richard Spencer in. Yeah,
he got it on the discount racket men's warehouse and
probably Manifort wishes he had it. Well, if there's no

(01:00:50):
ostrich in that fucking So this this this young dude
was like talking to this guy who was a little
bit off about his circumcision based sign and around me
there was a focused around racial justice and it seemed
like it was very clearly this guy and his friend
came out to the protest and tried to film the
few crazy signs they could find so that they could
make fun of the whole protest by pointing out like

(01:01:12):
and they supplicedly said that suplicitly said we're going to
have a little fun. Yeah, they said we're here to
have a little fun. Who Yeah, he had a very
smoot sign. Video evidence on Twitter. I recorded it. It's there.
It's frustrating, We'll link it. So he both Bridget and
I wound up confronting this guy at varying points because

(01:01:33):
he just was clearly up to no good, and she
got very heated, which was understandable in the moment. So
that's I think, what was the lead into what you Yeah,
so I got I got heated, And I think for me,
you know, I was born in d C. This is
I've lived in DC for most of my adult life.
People come here for protests and I think it's, you know,

(01:01:54):
a theme park for their cosplay around whatever. This is
my home. I live here, I'm gonna have a kid
here like this is where I live. Yeah, for me,
the fact that that guy was targeting somebody that is
obviously marginalized, obviously unwell, there are a million people to

(01:02:18):
talk to who were out and about it is not
I don't think it's a coincidence that he shows an
older guy who didn't really speak English, a guy who
was clearly like he chose a vulnerable DC resident hand.
This guy said he was from Maryland, so he came
into town quote to have a little fun, but not.

(01:02:41):
It wasn't with a shirtless black Lives Matter big guy.
It wasn't with someone who would have gotten in his face.
I thought it was really interesting that when you when Matt,
when you like talk to him, that's what people call me, Robert.
We're not gonna explain that anymore. Continue, do you guys

(01:03:03):
do the beeps? We don't. Okay, that's a weird East Coast. Okay,
we can really include all this, but I will make
fun of y'all. Okay, fine, bee is a thing. I'm sorry. No,
But but Robert, when you when you got in his
face and you challenged him, I found it really interesting
that when he was talking to like, let's be real,

(01:03:23):
that guy. I know that guy. I feel comfortable saying
this because I've seen that guy at every DC protesting. Yeah,
the older guy. I feel comfortable saying this. I've seen
him four years. He is Can I just say something like,
I haven't lived in d C in about three years,
and I've seen that guy like he's a fixture, he's around,
he's fine, but he is clearly meant he's like a vulnerable,

(01:03:44):
vulnerable person like he is under housed, and he is
of all the people to like talk to, Like, no
good journalist would interview that guy. Journalists three times during
this protest. Good they should be not pletely sure why me,
but okay, but they talked to you and you're wearing
the shirt you're to look you have a look that

(01:04:06):
like you look like a veteran and you're wearing a
Black Lives Matter shirt. So they can't even talk to
me three separate times. And none of that looked at
all like what was happening with this fu? No, that
was that was bullying, Like what what we were with
the saying was who is someone who is vulnerable? Who
is someone that will not have the ability to best
me that I can make look coolish? And I walked

(01:04:29):
to journalists all the time and they're always so respectful,
so thoughtful, so informed, so like open to where I'm
coming from and this guy was playing the I'm going
to get your game, and exactly, as a journalist who
has covered a lot of civil unrest in his career,
you don't talk to the cooks because they don't they're

(01:04:49):
not representative, they don't teach you anything. So I mean
this feeds into the point there's real ship going on here,
and some motherfucker from his fucking Maryland college showing up
in a goddamn suit to make a nutty old guy
who is harmless look like a spokesperson for this rally
against people who are out and proud members of the
Ku Klux Klan is infuriating. It was when we were

(01:05:13):
so I completely agree. I think that why I got
so upset was that it was someone that was marginalized
and vulnerable, and that like he was clearly, of all
the people to talk to, he didn't talk to any
of the like black dudes, Latino dudes without shirts screaming.
He could way too scared to anyone who was not

(01:05:34):
as white as him. Exactly as soon as I got
in his face with camera, like you could watch his
body language, he like, he like would start stuttering, and
his friend with the camera put his camera down as
soon as we started talking, which is exactly how you
know that he's a sucking charlatan. And so I guess
for me, you know, it's hard because this is my community,

(01:05:57):
this is my home, Like this is not a gay
aims is not a thing for fun, Like this is
where I live. The guy that he was, you know, targeting,
that's sort of like, like I hate to say, he's
like Mike Kok like He's like like, yes, he he's
in my community. And I agree with you that in

(01:06:18):
terms of is it okay with punch Nazis, it's probably
more effective in terms of a more effective theory of
change around how we deal with Nazis to reason with them,
not punch them. But in that moment, I was like,
I was like, where is the person that's just like
I'm ending this with a fucking fist, Like I didn't
want to hit him. Yeah I didn't. I didn't. Here's

(01:06:40):
the other thing that was really interesting about this conversation.
He did. He was just like, you know how some
people are just begging for a punch to the face.
There's a German word for that, what is it? But
he was he was hella backs something like we've all
been homie was homie was hella b The exact translation

(01:07:05):
of the German word is a face in need of
a fist. Here's the other thing that's really interesting for
this whole experience is when we when Matt started shaming
him for his tactics as like this is not professional,
no journalists would do this those kinds of things. He

(01:07:26):
would duck his shoulders and cross his hands over his
crotch and looked down, and he he assumed the physical
posture of shame. And so I started in the Peace
Corps in Kyrgyzstan, and Um, the Peace Corp volunteers I
know would colloquially call this an AJ shame circle, where

(01:07:48):
like the older women who would be referred to as
a JS would um. If a student had been acting
out for a long long time at school and was
like just zilient against correction, they would bring him into
the school, They bring his parents in with him, and
then all the teachers would just like shame him in
front of his family to make him realize this constant

(01:08:13):
like the severity of his behavior and how it was
affecting the community, and how it was This is this
is reflecting on your parents. This is reflecting on your school,
this is reflecting on your classmates. This behavior does not
belong here. And because of that, like ingrained tactic as
a woman there, if I had a man harassing me,

(01:08:37):
I could go to him and say, Hey, where's your shame?
Why are you talking to me like that? Do you
want me to tell your mother? I'm a teacher, I'm
respected in this community, and I'm working for free and
you're talking to me like that, and he would immediately
stand down. I don't have that kind of power in America.

(01:09:00):
Coming back to these states, I feel less safe because
I have no social power to pull shame on someone
who is acting out like that. And so I think
with the nutzis in this situation, we need to find
that shame trigger. I think that shame is more powerful
then punching them. I think we need to find the

(01:09:22):
moment where they like their line is, whatever that far
out moral line is, and we need to call them
on the spot and make them feel ashamed of themselves.
I think you did that when you told him no
journalist would do this. I think that he felt shame.

(01:09:44):
I am a white male journalist, another clearly intelligent white
male journalist is telling me, Homie, I'm ashamed of you
right now. I think that what you said to him
cut him deeper than anything that I, as a black woman,
could ever that something about you, the way that you
appealed to him, I feel like, cut him so deep

(01:10:05):
because he abuse you as a person whose opinions matter,
and so so Mike. So I guess I'm gonna roll
off of what both of you said because I agree
with both of you, and I guess my thesis on
should we punched Nazis is I, in my position, as
someone who sees Nazis as an existential fucking threat and
everyone who supports him as an existential threat to me

(01:10:25):
and mine, I will always punch Nazis. I think they
must be destroyed. I think that perhaps getting rid of
them in a way that doesn't involve me punching, and
then later, if things go real bad, doing further than
punching Nazis would be better for the world. I think
that a war with Nazis is going to results in

(01:10:45):
a lot of people getting hurt, and I don't want
people to get hurt. But I have no power to
make that happen because they don't see me as a person,
I can talk at them all day and nothing I
do will change anything they believe. It won't make them
be any less dangerous to me. So if I'm in
a situation and Ryan face to face with a Nazi,
I cannot guarantee that he will walk away with an
intact face. But of what we don't But if we

(01:11:08):
don't want to punch Nazis, if as a society we
want the Nazis to not get punched, we want them
to disappear, it's not on black people. White people need
to shame Nazis. And the thing is, it's starting, it's
kind of starting. I think they're starting. Part of the
reason there weren't a thousand Nazis here is that for
the last year, anytime one of these dumb fuckers you know,

(01:11:31):
stands up and it starts yelling racial slurs at someone,
We've all got real good cameras in our pockets, and
people are like, hey, I'm gonna videotape this guy screaming
at someone because they're wearing a Porto Rico shirt and
their life gets dismantled. So keep doing that, ruined Like
it's like when one of your siblings act out and
everybody kind of looks at you at the party and
they're like, like, go get your kids, get your get

(01:11:53):
your own white people, deal with your own. And that's
I think that's a really good point. Those are all
really good points. And I think that that's as the
whitest man who's ever lived as a very white man,

(01:12:17):
we it is. It is incumbent upawn. One of the
reasons might hear of this protest is that British guy
who just tried to leap over the cops to punch
a Nazi because he because there's nothing whiter than the British.
Like they're they're clear, they are a window. Um. It is.
It is incumbent upon us to stand up and like

(01:12:43):
confront these people because it shouldn't get to punching. They
should be And that's part of the problem. These people
existed everyone. None of these people were not Nazis before
Donald Trump won the election, but the election made them
think that they could get away with being open about
what they were, and nobody, nobody in their communities called
them on it. No one in their families has pulled

(01:13:05):
them aside and said, honey, we're gonna take you to
the hospital because this is a fucking problem. We're cutting
off your trust fund because you're bringing a shame upon
which is how Richard Spencer does this ship. But like
it's make racist to freight again is a great slogan,
but it doesn't mean beating up racists. I mean that
might be what it gets to if ship descends enough,
but it starts with just making them scared to be racist.

(01:13:28):
You can't cure them, it is not. It's no one's job.
No matter how much white you are, it is no
one's job to cure racists. You can't. You can't cure
anyone of anything. But is your job to make them
feel bad about it, drive them underground. And I do
think we have not gotten to Lauren yet. So I
do want to ask Luran sile question, is it better

(01:13:48):
to hit Nazis or to shame? Is it more effective
as a tactic to hit Nazis er to shame them? Okay, well, Ben,
this is my first oh watching from the test. Uh,
I went through As I said, I went through a
variety of emotions. So when I first started at the
train station, by the time we got to the site,

(01:14:11):
I wanted to probably harm every last one of them.
But as I sat there and I watched and and
and and actually started to observe what was going on
from the complete full circle, I came to a realization
by the end of it, that is the payback or
whatever I was saying, it's really not my fight. It's

(01:14:32):
my fight when I'm confronted with with them, you know.
Then it's my fight. When it's me and nazieing, you know,
in an allele, you know, in a in a store,
you know, anywhere else, anywhere on the streets, in a uniform,
you know, it's my fight. Name then I will punch
a knots, you know. But as far as a worldwide
uh maybe not cure, but um remedy for now is

(01:14:59):
that you have to white people have made other white
people feel guilty about it, and that's the only way
we can't there's nothing we can do. We can support
and give you examples of how he feels, so you
can go fullard with how we feel about it. But
it's really I think that was the biggest take away
I'm taken from this to day. I was seeing everybody
else kind of take the staying and say, well we

(01:15:20):
got this, you don't say, And I was able to
say a bay right now is to survive. Yeah, and
just just as it's gonna take men starving the roots
of the patriarchy to destroy it, because it grows from us,
you know. It's the thing that like, thank you, queer
I for all the work that you've done for that
this year. There's a phrase that I may have heard it.

(01:15:44):
I don't know if maybe it's something that I popped
into my head, or maybe it's something something said. It's
probably something someone said was, um, it's when I'm talking
to other men about this about male bullshit, and when
I'm talking to white people about white people bullshit. The
thing that I try to say because you know, like
people always want to respond with the And I heard
it at the protests, like because I we said something

(01:16:06):
about cops never being on our side, and this one
was like, well, I'm a cop. I'm here. I'm like,
I don't give a ship the cops on on my side.
And at some point she even said not all white people.
I was like, I'm not here to deal with you.
But but the thing that I want to say to
those people is listen, I'm aware that, like the patriarchy

(01:16:27):
isn't my fault or your fault or your fault. I
didn't make the patriarchy, was born into it. And I
am aware that white supremacy isn't your fault or your fault.
You didn't make white supremacy. You were born into it.
But it's your fucking responsibility, and it's my fucking responsibility.
The patriarchy won't disappear without men being like, hey, we're

(01:16:48):
in a We're in our fucking, you know, locker room,
and some guy talks about starts talking about the ship
that people call locker room talking. We're like, shut the
funk up, Like they won't go away until men are like,
you don't get to be among us unless you stop
this ship. And it's the same thing with white people.
That's a really good analysis. Racism gets killed by white supremacy,

(01:17:09):
will die when white people stop feeding it. And I
think that's the point we want to end on, because
I can't think of a better line to end it on,
and I think everyone for joining, and I will now
selfishly note that our website is behind the Bastards dot
com and our Instagram and Twitter is at Bastards Pod.
I can't think of anything else to in this on
so I will just say, buy a bag of Dorito's

(01:17:32):
and watch Downfall, the movie where Hitler dies in a bunker.
Just do that, and also read some books. Whatever, Go
and educate yourself by material by black authors. Go read
so you want to talk about race, go read read
The Invention of the White Race. It's a long, dense read,

(01:17:55):
but give it, give it away, and like read some
bell hooks and like yeah, like like also like I'm
gonna put this is bridget I'm just gonna put a
little plug in, like, don't put that ship on black women, Like,
go on the internet, read books, you know, don't expect
like white people have to dismantle this ship and figure

(01:18:16):
this out, talk to your cousins whatever, whatever it takes.
It isn't our job. And like, don't put ship on
people of color who already are just like trying to
fucking survived, as you said, or at the very minimum,
pay them, yes, pay them. What's your snapping because Hannah

(01:18:37):
just said something very real. Well, I'm actually fine somebody
who like PayPal, somebody who needs the fucking money, because
I guarantee you there is a woman, probably a woman
of color out there who is teaching learning like shepherding
people into the you know, the righteous, the righteous path,

(01:18:59):
and she probably use a little bit of a papal blessing.
And I'll just say, if you, if you're a white woman,
you're curious about this coming from a evangelical conservative perspective
of unlearning your internalized racism, I'd like to recommend the
work of Carris Adele, who is a student at the
UVA right now, and she's on Twitter under that name,

(01:19:20):
and she tweets a lot about the stuff that she's
read and the experiences that she's gone through and educating
herself on this, and it's been really quality stuff. So
read up, do some reading, get out in the streets
when you can do some activism, uh, support the things
that you can support, and and stay at a reasonable

(01:19:40):
lay level of anger to be productive. And when you're
too tired for all of that, and when it's just
time to take a break, buy a beeg, cool ranch
to Rito's and just just have a nice, a nice
little chill session. And this has been behind the bastards
and I've been Robert Evans and I love a out

(01:20:00):
of you. H m hm