Part Four: How Heinrich Himmler Went From Nerdy Boy To Master of the SS

Robert and Prop continue the improbable journey of Heinrich Himmler from nerdy new age mystic kid to leader of the deadliest organization in history

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media, Harry everyone, Robert Evans here and on Thursday
September twenty fifth at eight pm, Behind the Bastards is
doing a live show. The show itself is in Portland, Oregon,
but all of the in person seats have sold out. However,
there are live stream tickets available if you go to
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Behind the Bastards on just type that into Google or

(00:23):
whatever search engine you use. Alberta Rose Theater Behind the
Bastards you can find a link to buy tickets for
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which helps bail people out who don't have resources of
their own, so it's a good cause. Tickets are twenty
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So please go to Alberta Rose Theater Behind the Bastards

(00:46):
and pick up a live stream show to check it out.
On Thursday September twenty fifth at eight pm. Hey, Sophie,
did I already do the Himmler? I hardly know where
a bit?

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, every one of the parts life Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Huh, okay, well you can't do it for a lot
of the other Nazi leaders, you know, so I feel
like I got to get my money's worth, but I
guess I already got my money's worth, and also I
didn't pay any money. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards,
a podcast where I Robert Evans have recorded I don't know,
like a thousand episodes, and I still don't know how
to do my job. What other industry but podcasting could

(01:23):
this be allowed and also still make me qualify as
a success. Just podcasting. That's the only industry where that
works that way. Podcasting, just podcasting. Prop Jason Petty guest
back Himlick Himler talk Henrik, We've behind her Man. I

(01:45):
don't know these fucking episodes. Unfortunately, Himmler's like, I don't know.
He might be my favorite Nazi in terms of like
reading about That's a bad way to phrase it, but
I'm fascinated by him. He said, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
Know if there's I don't know if English has a
no word for what we're trying to say right now.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
This is like my special interest is the different weirdos
who lead the Nazi Party. And I do a lot
of Himler reading, and honestly, I don't know how to
like do this episode succinctly in any way, shape or form,
Like we're on I'm I'm thirty six pages and fifteen
thousand words into it and I'm still not done writing.
So this is a disaster. This is just a fucking

(02:22):
calamity for me. Yeah yeah, listener.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, It's just like there's a few people where every
rabbit trail is actually so fun. Yeah, like yeah, like
like you're like the one about uh, who's the guy that.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh of on list Yeah yeah, and these the yeah who's.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
No, who's the dude that freaking ruined Cambodia? Not yeah,
yeah yeah poulpot Pole pot not him. I'm talking about
the American guy that ruins.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
So you mean I hit it just Kissinger Kissinger.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Kissinger, Yes, where I'm like every rabbit hole on Kissinger
is its own adventure and you can't not say it.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, you got to keep going down. And it's like
with Himler, we've got to talk about all of these
different guys in the occult, right, like they're just too many,
and then that's a whole story, and you've got to
talk about these other Nazi leaders who you know, Himler
interfaced with and these other things, like there's just so
much to get into, so I guess let's get into
it still and keep talking about Heinrich Himler. When we

(03:27):
last left off, he had become Reichspear of the SS
by ratting on his boss for using a Jewish tailor. Yes, yes,
but this is like, it's not a mean.

Speaker 4 (03:41):
Has no idea, what's going on?

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah? Yeah, well I'm also I'm trying to figure out
the joke here, because you normally say snitches get stitches,
but in this case, he snitched about a tailor and
Taylor's literally make stitch. I still like, right, yes, snitch
snitches about stitches on there should be a more satisfying
joke to make, but I didn't figure it out. I

(04:04):
got it. It's Lilo and snitch bars.

Speaker 4 (04:07):
See it was there. I don't it's in there. I
don't feel like that there's something there.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
I don't accept that.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
I've been paying and that was really.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Fun to accept that at all. Anyway, snitches who got
accepted was Heinrich Himler as Reich's fear of the SS,
which is a really petty reason to get to be
the leader of the SS. But the SS ain't shit
at this point. That's very important. You understand right, there's
a couple of hundred guys. They're very much seen as
all they were formed is this elite and obviously Hitler's

(04:37):
bodyguard is a part of it. They're kind of like
this the younger brother of the essay, and they're just
there's tens of thousands people in the essay. The SS
is not much so the fact that Himmler isn't much
himself doesn't seem weird because, like, well, who gives a
shit about who's in charge of the SSS, Like it
just doesn't matter that much at this point. Now, Himmler's

(04:59):
first order of business was to double down on some
of the elite entry requirements while relaxing others. He relaxes
the rules around height. You don't have to be as
tall anymore to join the SS, right, But he's he
gets more emphatic about the Aryan pedigree, right, like that
we need to make sure that all of these people
are like good, have good Nordic genes. Only people who

(05:21):
have like a clean racial background should be joining. Now
at this point, they're not actually doing anything to prove that.
It's like does he look right? Yeah, okay, you know,
and obviously does he look right. Is the kind of
thing where part of what's going on is like, do
I like him? Because Himmler doesn't look right, you know,
he does not look like a Nordic, you know, traditional Nordic,

(05:43):
you know, the idolized Nordic, you know person. So he's
talking a big game about how we're very you know,
we're super. We don't want any Slovs in here, right,
we don't want any polls in here. But they're also
not doing very They're not doing anything actually officially to
make that the case. It's just kind of rhetoric at
this point. Yeah, and he sees his goal and the

(06:03):
thing that he's going to be good at. The first
thing is going to be really good at is expanding
the SS as a power within the party, right while
maintaining at least the image that they have strong standards,
that they're elite, that we only take the best of
the best. They're not only taking the best of the best,
quite the opposite, but that image of exclusiveness, right of exclusivity.

(06:26):
That's key to why like the fact that what he's
really good at is propagandizing to the rest of the
party that this is the organization for the best of us,
and soon guys from the essay are like, well shit,
I can actually see that. A lot of the guys are,
I mean, like drunken lauts. I don't want to be
associated with them. Hey can I join the SS? Like?
You know, they start coaching people. That's how he's able

(06:48):
to initially start rebuilding the SS is by and he's
reaching for people like him who are not impressive, who
are not successes, and who have kind of been, in
a lot of cases, been failures at everything outside of this.
But they desperately want to feel special, and that's what
the SS offers them, right, that's what the Nazi Party
offers and broad. But then these guys who get into

(07:10):
the party wanting that Okay, this will finally make me
feel like I belong somewhere. I'm a royal boy, I
still feel like kind of a fuck up and a failure. Ah,
the SS is there, right, you know, that'll fix it.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
Listen, that's called the upsale right there, That's that's the
join in the the what is it the war room
right in a you know for Andrew Tate's thing.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
You know what I'm saying. You get to join the
war room, you know, what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, And that's like, yeah, that's exactly what's it's it's
the same play every time this happens. Right, You're reaching
out to these people who they they personally feel like failures,
and you're offering them like if you join this group,
if you belong here, you know clearly you must be important,
you must be impressive. Now, as early as nineteen twenty seven,
Himler start is describing himself in letters to Mary, who

(08:00):
you know, they're not married. In nineteen twenty seven, he's
describing himself as a knight, and he starts describing the
SS in a similar way, not just not as an
elite military force, but specifically as a knightly order. And
it's one constructed in the image of a group that
he had read obsessively about as a boy, the Knights Templar. Right,
Like he is, yeah, like he this idea of this

(08:24):
group that he views as these were these elite warriors
protecting the faithful against the Muslim hordes. Now in reality
they're mostly bankers, right, the bulk of the Knights Templar. Yeah,
but he's and that's what he wants to make the
SS into, right, is that is a new sort of
knights templar, dedicated instead of to Christianity, which he's falling
away from, dedicated to protecting the Nordic race. You know.

(08:47):
That's it's instead of Christian pilgrims, it's protecting like the
blood of the Nordic people. That's what he increasingly, even
though what's actually happening on the ground is he's sort
of still treading water, trying to separate this organization from
the essay and trying to like make it something that
can stand on its own.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Do you think do you think is I mean, this
is obviously like how do you reach back into past
and do this? But I'm like, I wonder how much
of this is a personal self improvement project and how
much of it is I have finally found purpose and
I'm really passionate about building this thing or is it

(09:27):
just more for him? You know what I'm saying, Like,
I just wonder obviously it's never that cut and dry,
but like I just wonder, like how much of this
is really just like a self aggrandizing project in his head.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
I think that's that's It's a hugely important point that
he is tying his self worth to this right yes,
that he feels like he should be. He feels like
he should be special in a way that the world
has not recognized. But if he's able to forge the
SS into this thing, this nightly order of his dreams,

(10:02):
well then he matters. Then he's important. Then he is
like this legendary figure like I'm.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
The star, right, I'm the star I've always seen myself
as exactly.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, his ego is entirely tied to the s okay, right,
and so he's going to throw his whole life into
this because this is the thing that's offering him what
he's always wanted to never have.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
Right, you can see how I'm standing on business right now.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yeah, it's another one. That's that's another one for Sophie.
That's another one.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
It's a it's a Justin Bieber clip. So it's really one.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
He's got a lot in common with Justin Bieber.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
Okay, side note to everyone this does a piece of media.
Speaking of Daily's Eye, guys, there was this clip of
this guy who took who took a picture of Justin
Bieber and how he looks now and he has he
was like he has reached the uh, the level of
Uni race in the sense that he could pass for everything.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
Now like that he kind of looks like he's half black.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, yeah, he kind of looks black, but he kind
of looks Latino, but you know, he's a white boy.
It's like this fool might like take your lunch money
and do yo taxes, like you know what I'm saying.
So it's just so, anyway, can you not stand out
I'm standing on business right now.

Speaker 4 (11:13):
Anyway, let's move on.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Well, and he's you know, I wonder a lot with
Himmler because this is clearly the root of all this
is that he never got to fight. He never got
to ve himself as a man. So he's going to
these increasingly elaborate lengths to prove himself as a man
by creating this whole organization that you know, is the
most important and elite thing in the Nazi Party, which

(11:36):
is the world and is the savior of the race.
So I'm really saving humanity, the only part of humanity
that matters. If he had just gotten to go to
the front line and and fucking takes some incoming fire
here a bullet whiz past his head, maybe get wounded. Yeah,
with that to fix them like, I don't think I
have to feel like because, like I can tell you personally,

(11:57):
just being in combat doesn't fix insecurity. It doesn't make
you like. But I think he feels that way, right.
I think this is all him making up for the
fact that he never got his baptism of fire, right
like this is this is I think a lot of
it's rooted in that insecurity. And obviously that insecurity starts elsewhere.

(12:17):
So it takes him about a year to go from
joining the SS to commanding the whole organization, and within
that year it goes from again it had been down
to like maybe three hundred guys to back up over
a thousand. He's pretty good at at like expanding this organization,
and he he pictures it as a medieval institution immediately,

(12:37):
and this he does. He can't instantly introduce all of
these occult elements that he's he's obsessed with, but they're
always in his head. And I think everyone is casually
aware of the fact that the Nazis got up to
some occult shenanigans. They were obsessed with ancient artifacts and
the like. This is a major factor in a bunch

(12:58):
of popular media. The hell Boy comic in the hell
Boy movies, the first one of which is really good. Obviously,
two out of three of the Indiana Jones trilogy movies
are about the Nazis being obsessed with artifacts. And there's
numerous other fictional depictions of the Third Reich which focus
including the Wolfenstein video games. Right that these guys are

(13:18):
like that the Nazis were obsessed with like magic and
like ancient artifacts and rituals and stuff. And none of
those depictions are accurate, but all of them are based
in more real history than you'd expect, right, Like, a
surprising amount of the stuff in those movies has a
direct historic analog. I want to give a cave it

(13:39):
up top that while those movies are rooted in the
reality that these beliefs were very common, particularly within Heinrich
Kimmler's SS. They were not a mass They had no
impact on the Reich's performance in war, they had no
real impact on its crimes against humanity, and they had
fairly little impact on Hitler himself. We'll talk about this,

(14:02):
but Hitler gets fed up with all of the woo
woo occult bullshit, and like kind of midway through the process,
Heinrich Himler never gets over this stuff, and he is,
after a point, the high the last high ranking Nazi
who is super obsessed with the mysticism, you know, and
so all of that stuff, all of like the shit
in the those popular movies is more based in Himmler's

(14:26):
actual factual history than Hitler's, which I find really interesting.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
That's super interesting to think, like, first of all, that
that that element of needing some sort of divine mandate
has never left us to like to justify whatever atrocities
or power that makes it easier.

Speaker 4 (14:44):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
And then you know, if you start with that that
already that foundational premise that there is some sort of
again supernatural mandate or reason that I'm supposed to be here,
then you have to then you have to reverse engineer
it and then go find it, you know. And the
idea that like, like you said, like it don't always

(15:05):
necessarily mean that the person actually in charge really gives
a shit about any of it. It's just this helps
me stay get in power. But the minutes you get annoying,
y'all might get jettisoned out. I think about like the
the Doug Wilson of it, all like the Christian nationalists
that like, and I think, what's maybe it's not the same.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
It's obviously not the same.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
It's never a one to one, But I feel like
I don't believe that that movement gives a shit about
Trump either, you know what I'm saying. Nor does Trump
give a shit about them. They're just like we have
a mutual need, right that each of us fulfilled, Like
you fulfill my need, I fulfill your need.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
But we really don't like each other, you know what
I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, we don't have anything in common outside of this right, Yeah, yeah,
and that you know, that's that's the case for a
lot of these guys. Just why Hitler is jettison so
many Yeah, it was like we talked about the Strawsers
and the Maga Communist. Yes, as soon as Hitler's done
with the Strawsers, once they're no longer useful, they get
the bullet, right, Like I hate it.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
When the worst people are earth do something relatable, you know,
Like like that's like Hitler being like, all right, I'm done,
you got these weirdos? Like do we still got to
work with you? Like okay, yeah, I'm good, bro, Like
Trump walking around the roof at the White House. I
was like, that's kind of relatable, just like I just
need to walk, y'all leave me alone for a second.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, it's a lot of how like what he did
with Bannon, Right, Yes, it's like you were useful up
to a point and now you're kind of a liability.
Get you know, I think Bannon Bannon doesn't see himself
that way, but I think if there's a if our
Right has their Night of the Long Knives, there's a
decent chance he gets it.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
You know, yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
So, uh, as I've said, you know, the mysticism of
the occult stuff not a massive impact on what happens
in the war, but it's hugely influential both to Himmler
himself and how the SS becomes what it is. It
does have a formative impact on how the SS is
organized and like why Himmler does a lot of the

(17:09):
things with it that he does. So we're going to
have to pull back in time a bit to discuss
some other major figures in Germanic mysticism. Right. We talked
earlier in the last couple episodes about Guido von List.
You know, he was kind of the first guy I
wanted to get into the background. He's channeling ghosts, he's
learning the secret history of these priests of Wotan and
the Armanen. Right, another influential mystic theorist who's like kind

(17:33):
of coming up right around the same time as Guido.
The two of them are peers. Is your Lnz von
Liebenfels And what's like Guido, He's not a real that's
not his real birth name. He's not a Vaughan, you know.
He's actually born Adolph Josef Lanz in eighteen seventy four.

(17:53):
And like von List, he's an Austrian from Vienna, which
I think is interesting. These two guys, who are the
two real founding fathers of like the Vulkish occult movement,
are both Austrians from Vienna. That's really interesting. Also Hitler
Austrian Austrian, right, yeah, Also Freud Austrian from Vienna. There's

(18:13):
a lot of thinking about There's a lot of guys
who are all trying to like puzzle out why the
world is the way it is in Vienna who all
come to some really wild conclusions. And I think the
fact that cocaine is like water at this period of
time probably has an impact on that. But I don't
have any evidence that Lister Livinfel's were on blow. I

(18:35):
just really suspect they were absolutely Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cocaine
really helps to convince you that the voices in your
head are telling you the truth about.

Speaker 4 (18:46):
What just came out of your mouth is logical. Yeah,
like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Then just left that blow gives you just left a.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
Rap festival last weekend, and I'm like, I've talked to
plenty of people that I was like, oh you think.

Speaker 4 (18:57):
What you say? It made sense?

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, because you're snow blind.

Speaker 4 (19:00):
You know, you are snow blind, and.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Sometimes you know it can work or it can't. Right,
we get we get it the book because Stephen King
took enough cocaine to feel like all of those weird
scenes with the child orgery, like there's a good idea
I got to publish. I got a lot this shit,
right Yeah. And we loved the other parts of that book,
right the whole It worked out for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
every yeah fucking Fleetwood Mac, thanks to cocaine, had the

(19:25):
courage to be like, should we just turn our whole
break up, all of our breakups into an album? Yeah,
let's fucking do it right. Unfortunately, sometimes you get Freudian
psychoanalytic theory, which is reventiveness and all of this shit
with Liebenfeld's end lists, which is pure toxicity. Yes, but
we're talking about Adolf Joseph Lonz born in eighteen seventy four.

(19:47):
His parents, Again, these are middle class, upper middle class families.
His dad, like Himmler's dad, was a teacher. And again
it's just really worth emphasizing that all of these people,
Himmler and his wife Listen Liebenfels, are like comfortable middle
class guys with like dads who do pretty well.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
So the problem is middle class white men.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, yeah, when they've got enough money that they're not
worried about much, but they don't have very much to
they've got very little to do, and they have this
feeling that I'm special and I'm owed more than the
world is giving me, and that leads you into some
weird places. And the case is this is a thing, right.

(20:31):
I don't think it's just it's not just white people, right,
It's like it's this problem of but white people are
more represented in the upper middle class. If you have
people who as kids they've got like money but they're
board as hell, and then when they go up into
the world, they expect things to go better for them
than it does, and they need an explanation for why,

(20:52):
because obviously I'm supposed to be more important and impressive
than I wound up being.

Speaker 4 (20:57):
What's wrong?

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Whose fault is it?

Speaker 4 (20:59):
Right?

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, So it's possible that Leevinfels's mother may have had
some Jewish ancestry, which is going to be relevant later.
But as a boy, he like Himler, he's obsessed with
medieval history, although he's initially more interested in like the
Arthurian myths than Germanic myths. Right, He's really really into

(21:20):
King Arthur and the Knights at the Roundtable and all
those stories. He initially opts for a life of faith,
and he becomes a Cistercian monk in the eighteen nineties
and he takes up the name George, But the life
of a monk is boring as shit, so he is
compensated by developing an obsession with astrology and medieval history.
One day in eighteen ninety four, he stumbles upon a

(21:42):
gravestone from a member of the Knights Templar, and I
think this gravestone is probably like on the grounds of
the monastery. I'm not one hundred percent sure, but we
talked a little bit about them earlier. The real Knights
Templar where a Catholic militant order founded in the eleven
hundred to defend religious pilgrims in the Holy Land during
the Crusades. In their early period, they were elite soldiers.

(22:07):
These are actual knights. They're wherein the plate mail, you know.
These are like, you know, fighting on horseback. These are
like the military elite of the Crusades for a brief
period of time. But the Knights Templar continue on for
a couple hundred years and the vast majority, like ten
percent of them are soldiers, right, The vast majority of

(22:28):
the order are bankers. And in fact, the first this
is kind of one of the first examples of an
international banking system, is created by the Knights Templar because
they build this network of bases from the Holy Land
all the way into Europe that function as an early
banking international banking system where if you go to one
of these places they have the records, then you can

(22:49):
like pull your money out wherever you happen to be right,
And that's a very that's a fairly new idea at
this point in time. There's some other stuff. They're not
the they're not the people to do something like this
are the only ones. But they're among the very first
people who are operating an internet, an intercontinental banking system.
That's a really wild thing to exist in the eleven

(23:12):
hundreds twelve hundreds, right, Yeah, now, this is legitimately impressive,
and it's a very The history of the Knights Templar
is fascinating, but the fact that they're the bankers for
most of Christendom leads to problems for them because people
don't like bankers, right know, people don't like bankers in

(23:33):
any period of time for the same reason, which is
that they wind up in debt to those banks. Right
And in the thirteen hundreds, the King of France winds
up owing a shitload of money to the Templars. And
if you're the king and you owe a lot of
money these people, you know what solves your problem real
easily arresting them, declare them heretics, and arrest these assholes

(23:57):
who you owe money to le just get rid of them.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
Logical, Yeah, yes, now that is so funny to me.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
He charges them with like worshiping idols. I think he's
saying that they're basically like devil worshippers. And he also
charges them with homosexual behavior, right, which I'm sure is
a lot of these are monks basically. Right. Of course,
of course, some of them are sht up at each other, right,
you know, that's part of my feel will become monks.
But these charges are bullshit. He's making shit up. So
he has an excuse to arrest the knights templar and

(24:26):
get rid of this like debt problem that he's got.
So they take a bunch of these guys into custody
in France and they torture the ever living shit out
of them until they confess to being, you know, worshiping
false idols and engaging in gay orgies and all this stuff. Right,
you know, you get people to say anything, and you
cut enough pieces off of them. So the king goes
to the Pope and he's like, look at what all

(24:47):
of these guys admitted to doing under torture. You should
arrest the whole order all over the Christian world, right,
because clearly they're all guilty. This conspiracy goes all the
way to the top. The Pope being. The Pope is like, well, yeah,
this is like this is like a power center that's
not me. So I've get some benefit in getting rid

(25:09):
of these guys. And I'm very much simplifying the story.
But this all ends with the Pope ordering all of
the kings of Europe to arrest the Knights Templar, the
whole order and they are expunged brutally. Right, that is
the real history of the Knights Templar in brief. But
guys like Liebenfels and Himmler, who are both both Himmler

(25:30):
and Liebenfels, are obsessed with the Knights Templar from a
young age. They're not interested in reality. To them, the
Templars are heroic, badass warriors fighting evil Muslims to protect
the faithful. This view was reinforced in Liebenfels when he
comes upon this grave because on this Templar grave that
he finds, it's carved with a relief of a knight
stomping on a monkey with his foot. And I'm going

(25:53):
to quote now from the book Hitler's Vienna by Brigitte Hahman. Quote.
Lance interpreted this as a reference to the need for
aristocratic master men to subject monkey men, and from then
on placed himself in the service of this idea which
had come to him in a dream. So he sees
this thing, and then he has a dream about it,
and he becomes like, oh, what the what the knights

(26:14):
Templar are trying to tell me? Right, because he thinks
this dream is like him, these the spirits of these
deceased nights speaking to him, is that there needs to
be an aristocratic master race that can keep a foot
on the monkey men. And I don't think I need
to tell you who the monkey men are, right, don't
need to be clear the kind of white supremacist that

(26:36):
this guy is. These guys, it's not just non light
it's also other kinds of white people, right, ye, Poles
or just as.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Polish blood out of you didn't, Yeah, no, you have
really stretched your definition of white.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, this is it's it's just it's a different
kind of white supremacy and a little bit than what
we have today. Not any less bad, just different. You
know what else is different the quality of advertisers that
we have on this podcast. No one else has ever
had advertisers as good as we have. You know, we do.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
We do a blindfolded, like we we beget he's right.
We don't even know. He's just they just be good.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
A lot of people don't know this. Every single one
of our advertisers has been approved as a saint by
the Pope, you know, every one of them, don't. We
don't do it, that's right, A Chicago means.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
Yep mm hm.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Anyway, here's ads. Ah, great stuff. So we're back. You know,
we're we're enjoying our ads. We're sponsored by the Knights Templar,
all of whom are currently being tortured by the King

(27:54):
of France. So, you know, very impressive that they're still
able to sponsor a podcast. We wish you all the
best of Luckees pulled out. Yeah yeah, and bankers love
getting their toenails pulled out. You know, if only that
had happened after the financial crash in two thousand and eight.
You know, if there was ever a time to torture bankers, man, right,

(28:16):
they'd have really learned their lesson in Yeah, maybe they
would have fixed things. Maybe the King of France was
onto something. In eighteen ninety nine, Lebenfels is ordained to
the priesthood. The next year he leaves the Order due
to what he described as a growing nervousness, and instead
founded a new order of his own, which he called

(28:36):
the Order of the New Templars. Now, unlike the Knights Templars,
his new Order is obsessed with the Holy Grail, which
he has grown interested in because he's reading all these
books on medieval myths, and so the New Templars their
three interests are the Holy Grail, men's rights, and race science.

Speaker 4 (28:56):
Good fuck it.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Shit, uh it's good stuff.

Speaker 4 (29:03):
Huh what the.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
The whole trail men's rights and race?

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Like god?

Speaker 5 (29:11):
Oh man, yeah, like like you're already the worst human
beings and then you just had to add salsa on
top of it, Like yeah, you just you're already you.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Just added top of teal on top of already being
the worst human beings ever.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
Just god, I hate these dudes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah, it's so funny. The whole men's rights thing is
always so it's fascinating to me that that's every single time,
every time. Yeah, and like you're you're angry about men's
rights and the fucking nineteen oh two, Like what the fuck, man,
you own it? Women can't even vote most places.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
Yes, I'm like you men's you're the only ones with rights, Like,
what war are you fighting?

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Okay, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's really it's it's magical.
So Liebenfels starts recruiting men to his new Templar order
that he sees as natural rulers. Right, He's trying to
recruit the master men he wants to make. He wants
to make a nightly order and fill it with like
natural leaders who can like take over as the hierarchy

(30:21):
of Germany. Right, Like, that's that's what he's he wants
to create here, and his ideal candidate for the new
Templars are independently wealthy, racially pure Aryan men who are
honorable and honorable to him means that they're willing to
give George von Liebenfel's money, and a lot of a
shocking number of people are down to do that. Using

(30:43):
their donations, he buys an old, crumbling castle outside of
Wachau to be their headquarters. And the castle's name is Werferstein.

Speaker 4 (30:53):
Okay, Nowitzel.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
If you played, if you played first person shooters in
the nineties or more recently, you've heard of Wolfenstein, right, yeah,
Wolfenstein three D one of the very first first person
shooter games ever made, I think a very early game,
and obviously there's been more modern adaptations. And the basic

(31:15):
plot is you're an Allied soldier in a castle filled
with like German occult bullshit and you've got to fight
your way to the end where Hitler has a robot
body and two chain guns for arms. But there's a
lot of a cult, weird bullshit. There's like they're raising
the dead. There's magic and all sorts of stuff. And
the name of Castle Wolfenstein comes from Castle Werferstein, right,

(31:39):
like this is, and it's not the only there's another
castle that also inspire Stein. But yeah, it's wild, right, yeah,
like there is. It's one of those things. The amount
of actual history that these games are based on is
kind of surprising. You would expect it to be basically none,
but there is more than a little bit of real
history Herebviously, the Nazis weren't really raising the dead. Most

(32:03):
historians degree Hitler did not have a robot body and
chain gun arms, but that is still debated.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
I was gonna say it's still debated, still debated.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah, I think Richard Evans's biography of Hitler really goes
into the chain gun arms hypothesis, but it's argued, you know,
I think I read a book somewhere. Yes, So in
nineteen oh two, George, who's now going as Lanz von
Liebenfel's adopts a fake identity complete with forged documents. He

(32:33):
now claimed to have been born in Messina, Italy, and
he changed the name of his father from Johann Lanz
to Baron Johann Lanz deliban Fells. Now he claims that
this invented father was a member of the Swabian nobility right,
which makes obviously Libenfels a noble, which is why he
starts going by Vaughan. Now, both of his real parents

(32:55):
are still alive. I think, like, wait a second, you're
lying at out who your dad is while your real
dad is alive. But he doesn't see. This doesn't seem
to have caused him any problems right.

Speaker 4 (33:07):
Now, ain't no internet, So.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Who's gotta call this up?

Speaker 4 (33:12):
Right? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (33:12):
Yeah, you go all the way into the countryside to
go find my father?

Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah he goes. He basically like yeah, starts claiming like no,
I'm a I'm gonna talent, I'm a Swabian nobleman. You know,
so you can call me Lonz von Libenfels. That's that's
my name now. And he also gives himself a fake PhD.
Because if you're forging documents, why stop it?

Speaker 2 (33:32):
One?

Speaker 3 (33:33):
I mean, yeah, why not, bro, Like, dude, add the guacamole. Man,
upgrade to the platinum package. You're already you already changed
your name, already gave you Yeah, just upgrade the dude, yeah, man,
And then like, why don't you throw in, like throwing
a couple ex girlfriends, you know what I mean, like
a couple couple of supermodel ex girlfriends.

Speaker 4 (33:54):
Why not? Yep.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
So, by this point, levin Fels has become a follower
of von List, you know, who creates this armin In
theory about these priests of Wotan and and List adopts
Libanfel's as kind of a protege, like he sees this, Oh,
you changed your name too. You're also pretending to come
from an aristocratic, noble background just like me. You know,

(34:18):
they kind of like they're simpatico. There's just like this
natural alliance that they have because they're both the same
kind of con man and in the same kind of nerd.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Again, in a modern era, fucking von List would be
the dungeon master and Liban Fells would be like the
guy who always has time for recession, right, yes, yes,
and they're there. The List is aware that Libanfels is
like faking his ancestry because he creates a fake family
tree for the von Liebenfels like family with a heraldic

(34:49):
figure that includes imagery from lists invented Arminin. So he
he creates like a fake family tree and like a
family crest, using like the the room zones that those
ghosts told them in a dream, you know, to help all,
to help out liban Fels.

Speaker 4 (35:05):
You know, yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
I just feel like if you if you're like sitting
like four chairs down in like the office meeting, like,
are you like we gotta take this, We have to
take him serious, Like I have to take this serious?
Did like he just you just made up your whole pass?
Or do they not know that this is comically made up?

Speaker 1 (35:25):
I think outside of Liban Felsen List, their followers don't,
and certainly the people who are just like reading because
they've got their followers who are actually showing up and
doing rituals with them. Both lebon Fells and List have
their own organizations that they've said, like libanfels has like
this order of the New Templar. Most of those guys
don't know. And it's hard for me not to think
of libanfels En List. I can imagine them as like

(35:48):
me when I'm ten with my friend, as we're like inventing,
you know, creating our own worlds for like D and
D games, or like creating our own space marine chapters
for Warmer and being like and this is this guy's
backstory and he did all of what they're doing, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
That's what I'm to say. But we've grown ass men.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
So that's what I mean by like, it's fun if
we know we're suspending reality. But you literally went to
the office to change your name to him and your.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Dad is alive, sir, Your father simply is alive. Still, Like,
you know this is full of shit.

Speaker 4 (36:21):
We know he's not that.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, that's the big question, is right, does the does
the fact that these guys know they're lying make them
believe they're bullshit any less? And I think the answer
is no. And I'm going to quote from Brigitte Haman
again quote later on, Lonz would explain these manipulations by
saying he wanted to avoid astrological checkups of himself. However,
the real reason was the Hoffenreich family's Jewish ancestry, which

(36:45):
made LANs fail to meet his own racial criteria in
the order of the new Templars. He did succeed in
sneaking these false facts into the City of Vienna's official
registration files. Thus Adolph Lanz became the Aryan baron Adolph
georgelnzvan Libenfel's PhD. And so he justifies this when people
find out, you know, anyone who finds out, he's like, oh,

(37:06):
I didn't want anyone to be able to like do
like astrologically, like like spy on me, So I had
to fake some dates about my birth. But that's the
only reason he's actually doing this, because he's got Jewish
family and List again the fact that List is willing
to help him disguise his Jewish ancestry. And I think
it's because it lets List spread his bullshit even more

(37:28):
because he gets to create a fake family tree and
a fake family crest and he can go to You
don't think the arm and in are reel well, look,
my friend, who's a real noble and registered with the government.
His family crest has these symbols that came to me
in a dream. Obviously, everything I'm saying is real, you
know now, Like his mentor list, Libenfels makes his money
as a journalist. In pre war Imperial Germany, a number

(37:50):
of moneyed conservatives had subsidized the creation of pan German newspapers,
which existed to support these the still new concept of
German as an identity by pretending it had always been
a thing. So he's being paid by these right wing
conservatives who buy newspapers to have guys like this lie
about the German identity, right like, because nationalism, you know,

(38:15):
is in their best financial interests. And Libanfell's patron is
this guy, George Schoenerer, who's this you know, he's this
very rich dude who's a nationalist. And liban Fells repays
Shoner by licking his boots in print, he writes, you know,
as he's writing about these ancient arians and the Volcish movement,

(38:35):
he's writing about how great Schoner is, right like, this
guy is the very model a of a of a
of a Nordic you know, superman. Right now. As time
goes on, liban Fels gets more and more obsessed with
lists Arman and priests and the ancient Aryans, and this
carouses him to break with the Catholic Church that he
he'd literally been a monk. Right now. Part of why

(38:57):
he breaks from the Church is that his financial patriot, Schonerer,
had also created something called the Away from Rome movement. Now,
this is part of a larger struggle. We've talked about
this in several episodes. At the birth of the German
nation of Imperial Germany after the Franco Prussian War, Autovon
Bismarck has this huge fight with the Catholic Church because

(39:18):
the Catholic Church is a problem for the Kaiser. It's
a problem for Bismarck, and it's going to be a
problem for the Nazis because Catholics don't just look at
whoever's in charge of their country as a leader. They've
always also got the pope and that's a second center
of power. That's an issue for you if you want
to be a dictator, right.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
If you ain't first your last baby, you know exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
So Schonerer starts this Away from Rome movement, and part
of why he likes Libenfels is Lebenfel's this weird pagan shit.
Even though Schoner maybe doesn't fully buy into the pagan
stuff it lets it's it's something that separates people from
the Church in Rome, you know. And Lonza's big innovation
in fact is that he turns the away From movement

(40:00):
into the Aryan race movement. The Aryan race movement gets started.
A lot of the initial impetus behind it is people
can be like, anyone can be a Catholic, right, you
don't have to be white. The Catholic Church is happy
to have non white people in it. Obviously still racist,

(40:21):
but non white people can be Catholic. Non white people
can go to Heaven. Right, Jesus will save all of them.
You know that that's pretty cool. White Jesus like doctrine. Right,
it may be white Jesus, but he'll still save a
black person or you know, someone who's brown and someone
who's Native American. Right, they can all be Catholic. And
that's a huge issue for racists like liban fels En

(40:43):
list and shown Er right, and so hey, hold u.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
That's another thought that ever crossed my mind that like,
if you a white supremacist that still believes in somewhat
some version of the Christian God that you like, wait
a minute now, you telling me Heaven is going to
have other races in it.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
It's not segregated, like the.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
That's a problem for me, like you.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
That's exactly what Leeban Fels is saying. And that's why again,
the birth of the Aryan race movement is in trying
wanting to come up with something to replace Catholicism in
the minds of a lot of germs and replace because
you know they're focusedtionally on Catholicism. But this is a
problem that they have with all of Christianity, which is

(41:34):
too serious. If you take your Christianity seriously, you have
to accept that other races are loved by God and
can be saved, right, yeah, but if those other races
aren't really human, that's right question. You know, there's some
room to both be like, well, Jesus is an Aryan
and God the only bio blue or a fit for

(41:57):
heaven are arians, right, yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:58):
And that's the yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
The the Jonathan Edwards like the sinners in the hands
of angry God guy, like he was like, dude, you know,
if if all people are made in the image of God,
including the slaves in the Savages, then we should give
them the Gospel. I'm just not sure that they're human.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Right, right, Yeah, And that's what like Leban Fels is
trying to replace the Roman Catholic Church and to a
larger extent, Christianity with this worship of like the Aryan race,
and this idea of no, no, no, What matters is
not saving souls. What matters is saving the Aryan race
through selective breeding, right, in order to fix the problems

(42:38):
that race mixing has created. Right and Libanfels's argument is
that everyone's, every every Germans primary duty is to their race,
and so Aryan descended people have to reject Rome in
order to properly show race loyalty. He writes, quote, the
religious controversies of former times and the national wars of

(42:59):
the most times are about the forerunners of a tremendous
struggle among the races for global predominance. Already we see
everywhere the signs of this most enormous of all battles appear.
The Mediterranean countries, Mongols and Negroes are getting ready for
their joint fight against the Germanic race. Now in this
upcoming fight, Rome is the leader of the alliance of

(43:22):
inferior races and quote the Germans most embittered enemy. So
he has turned this from like, no, no, everyone's loyalty
should be to the race instead of the church, to
the Roman Catholic Church. Is the head of this evil
alliance of non white people that's going to destroy, you know,
the Nordic race, the Germans. You know, that's that's that's
what he's selling.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
So rather than feeling solidarity with all of the people that.

Speaker 4 (43:47):
Were conquered by the Roman Empire, do you know.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
What I'm saying, Like yeah, yeah, yeah, if you already
use in this myth making, well.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, that's interesting because he is there is there is
a line from like this obsession with many fighting against
the Romans and like the victory and Turnerberg Forest and everything,
and his hatred of the Roman Catholic Church. Right, this
is there's a lot of Germans have always been defined
by their resistance. Rome has always been the enemy, right

(44:15):
one way or the other. That is very interesting, you know.
But what we have at this point is this has
gone from these guys being like nerds and cooking up
their own fake version of medieval history and wanted to
feel like I'm descended from knights, I'm the reincarnation of
this you know, ancient noble twelfth century night to There's
a race war brewing, and the Catholic Church is going

(44:37):
to lead it, and we need to get we need
to convince our fellow Germans to reject Catholicism and worship
this idea of the Aryan race, this new and return
to these old pagan beliefs that again we've largely created
about Wotan and the fucking like, right, like, that's what
they're going for here. So List and Lawns cross promoted

(44:59):
each other's ideas and organizations. And it's Libanfels who first
uses the swastika as a symbol of a far right
area and racist movement. When he creates the new templar
coat of arms, he puts the swastika in it, right,
And so all of and this is, you know, nineteen
oh six or so, we're at Hitler, is just a

(45:20):
fucking bum in Vienna, and all of the pieces of
Nazi have come together in these occult mystic organizations, right
that Libanfell's Enlist that they are the ones who create
the basis of it, right. This is where Hitler gets everything,
and it's where Hitler gets everything right.

Speaker 4 (45:38):
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
Obviously there's some other guys, but they're all related. To listen, Libenfels,
you can draw a line between them. We've talked about
you know, modern Blavatsky is a part of this. But listen,
Libanfels are really they're like the spiritual grandfathers of Nazism. Yeah,
speaking of the spiritual grandfathers of Nazism, they would never

(46:00):
by the products and services that support this podcast.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
It might be the spiritual grand children.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Who's to say, Yeah, I'm to say they're not buy
these ads products. We're back. You can buy the ads too,
you know, advertise on our podcast. Pay us money. We'll
show whatever product you wanta.

Speaker 4 (46:24):
Give me money.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Yeah. Yeah, speaking of which, you know, we've got an
ad here from Jerry in Tallahassee, Florida, who sells the
best cocaine in Florida. So yeah, go to Jerry. If
you're looking at you can create your own far right
area in racist.

Speaker 4 (46:46):
You might become a legendary psychologist.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, yeah, you might, or you might o d because
Jerry's cocaine is one hundred percent fenyl. Who's to say,
Jesus Christ, what, Sophie, this is what the ad said.
Jerry paid us good money for this, wow, thirty dollars.
So we're talking about listen, Lonz. They're cross promoting each
other's ideas and organizations. Libenfel's uses is the first to

(47:12):
use the swastika. And yeah, it's also, you know, as
important as it is to know that this is where
Nazism and the SS come from. This is their backstory,
and millions of people die partly as a result of
like these nerds geeking out over their fucking weird medieval

(47:32):
obsession with the fucking knights templar and all this stuff.
It's also important to know that there's a lot of
silly stuff in these beliefs, a lot of stuff that's
just ridiculous that doesn't even tie into like what we
know from the Nazis. Like, there's a lot of just
absolute nonsense here. And I want to quote from uh
Hitler's Vienna again. Quote. In nineteen oh six, Lonz's most

(47:54):
important work was published theo Zoology or the News about
the Little Sodom Monkeys and the odds Electron. A member
of his generation which experienced electricity as an overwhelming phenomenon.
Lonza ascribed to the Aryan god's electric powers and borrowed
ideas from Carl von Reechenbach's theories on magnetism and the
breath of life. The human brain, for example, was described

(48:16):
as a breath accumulator. He corroborated his obscure ideas with
biblical sources and arrived at conclusions such as Christ proven
to have been an electric human being during the Tertiary
Jesus was made out of electricity. Electricity people are just
just because it's new and it's cool.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, I get it.
I get it.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
If you hit a switch and some lights up, Yeah,
like you, it's definitely magic.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
And this is all very silly, it's very empt the
fact that like the title of this book, theozoology, or
the news about the little sodom monkeys and the gods electron,
it's all just like wildly ridiculous. Yes, but this is
also tied directly to This is a part of an
ongoing trend that extends to the present day within fascism,
which is fascism is always inextricably tied with futurism. Right.

(49:07):
In Italy, the first fascists to name themselves such worshiped
airplanes and automobiles as signs of modernity. Right, that's a
huge deal for early fascism, is like this worship of speed, right,
and fascism is an I we you know, people think
about like and we've been talking about these guys who
are obsessed with the Middle Ages, but they're also obsessed

(49:27):
with new technology. And fascism is an ideology for the future,
for people who embrace action for the sake of action
and speed for the sake of speed. And Libenfel's is
doing something similar here, right, this kind of bringing electricity
into it. Right, you can and should draw a line
from that, from what he's doing, from these Italian fascists

(49:49):
who are in love with automobiles and race cars and stuff,
to the embrace of AI aesthetics by the modern fascists. Right.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
That's why I'm like, I know Airby don't be watching this,
but like y'all that are watching, ask mama faces looking
like this, because I'm just like, oh why it, Oh
my god.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
You know it's this Leban Fels convinces himself that like
Christ must have been like this being of electricity, because
that's the sexy new technology. And our modern fascists have
convinced themselves that using AI, they're going to make a
god out of God exactly rule the future. You know.
It's the fact that all these Silicon Valley founders have

(50:29):
have gotten in bed with fascism. Isn't a deviation from
the norm. It's not weird. This is a return to
the battle day.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
They're so broke, Doug Man, it's like, it's I hate
you can't use extreme words. But just like every answer, huh,
Like every question we got already been answered, Like just
it's crazy that that's already because that was an open
question to me. I was like, why, y'all, what is
the thing?

Speaker 4 (50:56):
Like? Is this a hustle?

Speaker 3 (50:57):
Like is there a I don't seem to play like
with with these tech bros. I was like, like truly,
I was like I don't see the play, Like what
is the play? And now I see it.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
It's and a lot of this is rooted in this
idea of if you're if you're obsessed with modernity and
these new ideas and new technologies, part of what you
have to do is sweep away the old and democracy
is the idea that people deserve rights is old. We
don't have time for that. Right. The future, like, you know,

(51:27):
whatever it is we're doing with this new technology is
more important than these these archaic ideas of human rights.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
Yes, And that there has to be a great you know,
the great men theory like of history, like there has
to be a great man that steps in a christ
like figure if you will to like make it happen persadly.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Now, Libanfels from this basis formulates a view, a new
view of morality that discards everything besides race. Writing quote,
everything that is good for the superior race is moral,
and everything that is harmful immoral. Right, So ethics is
based now entirely upon what is good for the Nordic race,

(52:10):
for the Germanic race. Right. The words are kind of interchangeable. Here,
it's good and what brings us closer is it's again.
It's like how a lot of these we've talked about,
these different Silicon Valley cults, like the Zizians, everything that's
good for bringing about the birth of this benevolent godlike Ai.

(52:31):
That's the only thing that determines good and evil. Right,
what you do to people is immaterial. As long as
you're taking us closer to birthing this Ai God, that's
the only thing that matters. Now. The ultimate logical conclusion
of this kind of thinking is that other races cannot
coexist in Germany, because if you let other races survive

(52:55):
within you know, this this heartland of these Germans, the
Nordic peoples, the remaining Nordic peoples, race mixing will inevitably occur,
right and quote, if they mingle with inferior races, then
the divine in them will gradually disappear as well. And
I've talked about how Tolkien is writing his stories. He's

(53:17):
basing a lot of what he's writing on a lot
of the same things these guys are. They're interested in
the same myths. You know, Liban fels is interested in
the Arthurian myth. That's a big thing for Tolkien. We've
talked a lot about the Nibbu Lungan cycle, right, which
Leban fells Enlist are both obsessed with. Himmler is obsessed
with as a boy. That's one of the direct inspirations
for the Lord of the Rings and the Nazis conceive

(53:40):
of and by the way, I'm not saying anything. Tolkien
was not in anyway Nazi and anyway hated the Nazis,
specifically rejected their anti Semitism. Obviously, he was a man
of his time. There's some problematic stuff in there, but
he was not. I don't think he was a bad
person at all. The Nazis, though, do see. The Nazi
conception of the Aryans is a lot like how Tolkien

(54:01):
conceives of the men of Numenor, right, which is you
know Aragren in the Lordings movies. It's just to be
like eighty something, right, because something Yeah, he comes from
a superior type of human beings, who's who had lived,
you know, hundreds and hundreds of years and were much
more powerful and just better but over the thousands of

(54:23):
years than the men of Numenor are dying out right,
what the Nazis are doing they see the Aryans as
like the men of Numenor, And the goal of Nazi
eugenics is not just eliminating non Aryans, which is kind
of what people think today is like, oh, they wanted
to wipe out everyone who wasn't an area. No, no, no, no,
they wanted to wipe out the non Aryans because those

(54:44):
people were watering down Aryans blood.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
They turned to their godlikeness.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Right, they were trying to breed Nordic people together to
recreate this mythical super race, right to bring back the
men of numenor so to speak.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
This butl started with list In Libanfels, the latter of
whom wrote extensively about the need to quote refine and
improve one's race through pure breeding, the only genuine and
effective kind of repentance for the sin of intermingling God. Now.
List had prodded this issue, but liban Fels makes it
an obsession. In nineteen oh five, he launched a magazine, Astara,

(55:21):
which he described as the first and only publication dedicated
to studying quote heroic racesdom and men's rights direct quote
I means rights.

Speaker 4 (55:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
I feel like, yeah, I'm somebody. I feel like that's
like them. When bills get announced that the Congress has
going to vote on. Yeah, and if somebody just throws
one at the end, that ain't got nothing to do
with what we're about to vote on. And men's rights
like wen's rights, Like why are we talking about that?

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Well, let me explain why because in the pages of
Astara Liban, Fells extensively explored how concepts like the family,
like what we call the nuclear family, and women's rights,
which was still not not much in that period of time,
had to be reformed and curtailed in order to save
the race. He advocated for the establishment of colonies in

(56:13):
rural parts of Germany where quote, brood mothers could be
protected and isolated from inferior races and kept constantly pregnant
by men with the blood of the armanine him a woman, Right, Okay,
he's against. He's now increasingly against the idea of like marriage,
right because, like the family, all of that limits how

(56:33):
many Aryan kids you can pop out. He writes, quote
we have protected our cattle against racial degeneration and contamination
by way of cattle breeding tariffs, but we still render
unprotected human beings to contamination and blood adulteration.

Speaker 4 (56:48):
God damn yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
Right, we got to treat our people more like we
treat our cat.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
Sometimes I feel like, man, if he's so great, if like,
while in the middle of this wildest person is talking,
you just pulled out like the perfect just like l
pastor Taco and just be like, may eat this, eat this,
hold on, hold on, hold up, And we need to
keep the periods you've had.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
You've had literally nothing but sausage. That's yet us your
whole life. Try this, they're seasoning in it.

Speaker 4 (57:13):
Yeah, yeah, here's a burritos. We just need to keep
the race from home.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
Motherfucker. This is called pad tie. Eat it.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
Yes, yes, yes, this is called a noodle.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
Yeah yeah, no, listen to I don't well, I don't
know that would have affected him. But he starts advocating
in addition to all like, because of all this, he
starts advocating for polygamy to be legal, specifically for soldiers
who have proved their racial worth in battle. Right that, like, well,
if you know, a veteran comes back from the war
having proved himself to be a superior kind of man,

(57:46):
he should be impregnating as many women as possible, right,
And weak men should be stopped from breeding. In fact,
we should sterilize the mentally ill, and we should euthanize
anyone that's unproductive. Right. He is one of the first. Again,
there's other people who he's not the only guy having
these ideas, but he's one of the first people writing
these in an influential publication. And we don't know because

(58:09):
Hitler is a homeless bum in Vienna, living intermittently and
like a men's hostel and like selling postcards, is paintings
as postcards, basically a lot of the time doing like
sketches for money. It's theorized that he read Astara he based.
I mean, all of his biographers pretty much agree he
almost certainly came across issues of this, he read a

(58:31):
good amount of it, and he also would have read
people are There's a lot of what's going around are
like cheaply put together pamphlets and tracts that are being
seld on the street, a lot of which are like
plagiarizing a Stara too, right, So we don't know. We
don't have like a list that he's on as a subscriber,
but he is definitely reading this stuff, because he himself

(58:52):
wrote that during this time he came across countless hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds of pages of like different sort
of like writing on racial theory and uh, you know
the like all of this like aryan race science and stuff.
So he's really Hitler is actively reading this during the
most like influenceable period of his life.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
You know, like, okay, so two thoughts here, Just how
much of these weird, sweeping, full like hitting the Ala
moth of just these like pithy ideas somehow or another
comeback to, oh, you just want to fuck more girls?
Just like how you doing all this just to be

(59:33):
like you just trying to you just trying to smash more.
You want a justification to smash whoever you want without
any responsibility. That's what you're trying to do, right, And
and of course there might be more to it, but
I'm just so surprised how often it just oh, you
just want some girls.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
Right, You're angry that they have a choice in the matter,
and that like yeah that.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
You you you show them who you are and they
say no, thank you, and then you think that was
unjust yeah you're like, what do you mean it was?

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
So I think that, Yeah, it's the same.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
So much of it is that ego thing of like
people not being able to take being told no, just
like yeah, this is a bit different. But the fact
that you can see with a lot of our the
most prominent like people like Elon Musk and Mark Andresen
of these like fascist ideologues we're dealing with today. The
root of why they started making this far right turn
is they got on social media and people made fun

(01:00:30):
of them. People, Yeah, when they would have a bad take,
they would get like mocked, and the you know most
of us, that happens to us, you know, very periodically,
Like someone will be ad dick to you online and
you just to be like, yeah, you know, that happens.
But these guys, their whole life outside of this, no
one's ever talked shit to them, no one ever been
mean to them. Like the whole their whole world on

(01:00:51):
a daily basis is people agreeing with them, like reflexively,
and the fact that that doesn't happen online cute. This
is also a big factor in Hitler's childhood or not childhood,
like early adulthood. Astara is one of the magazines he
is reading, you know when or as a kid, like

(01:01:12):
he gets access to this, and he gets access more
to the point when he's an adult. Astara is I
think out of publication most of that time, but people
are cribbing from it and plagiarizing it and rewriting it
right like this is it's like an er text of
the Volkish movement and all this stuff, you know. So
the listin Liebenfeld's are really the core of the ideology

(01:01:36):
that obsesses both Hitler and Himler. Hitler is primarily going
to be focused on building the like rebuilding the Aryan
race and you know, finding living space, which is another thing.
Libenfels writes a lot about the need for living space,
the need for expansion for Germany, for Germans to have
more space to colonize, to you know, breed. So Hitler

(01:01:58):
takes a lot of that. Himmler also takes a lot
of the magic stuff, right like, he a lot more
of it than Hitler does. So when World War One
rolls around, both List and Libanfels are really bullish on
the war, right, because it's going to lead to the
Germany's going to conquer a bunch of land, obviously, and
then we'll have this space that we need, you know,

(01:02:19):
we'll defeat our racial enemies. But the war doesn't go
as well as they'd hoped, and the privations of the
war years forces Ustara to stop publishing because paper gets
very expensive. Guido von List probably dies partially as a
result of the food shortages in the war. He dies
like right after it ends. He's kind of old, but

(01:02:39):
the fact that like he had been starving like everyone
else probably contributes to his ill health. During the war years,
Libanfels refines his theozoology beliefs that he'd written that book
about about like electric Jesus at everything, yeah, yea, and
he comes to the conclusion that like theozoology kind of

(01:03:00):
a shitty name, like, go, I gotta rework this. And
by the time the war ends and the Weimar Republic
comes into being, he has smoothed all of this out
and come up with a new name for his belief system,
ariosophy or Aryan mysticism, right, And this is he's very
like consciously aping Helena Blovotsky's theosophy, right, Like that's that's

(01:03:22):
part of what's going on here. We've talked about this
in our episodes on her. But yeah, ariosophy is Aryan mysticism,
and that is what liban Fels is kind of selling.
Once the war ends and once Heinrik Khimler starts really
getting into the stuff when he has his his sick
period where he's reading everything he can get his hands on. Ariosophy,
Like that's how he comes into the ideas of Listen

(01:03:45):
Liebenfels in a big way. Yeah, and it's here we
returned to Heinrich Kimler billion and his book Hitler's Master
of the Dark Arts describes young Himler and his school
days as having a passing familiarity with Guidophon list. He
had some involvement in a Volcus group mold by lists
in Liebenfeld's theories, the Toule Society, which added to the
growing corpus of Aryan fantasy, the idea that the ancient

(01:04:08):
homeland of the Arians was an isolated Nordic island or
continent in the Arctic named Ultima Tooley and I'm saying
Tully that's how it's pronounced, but it spelled thule thchul. E.
Himler would have become familiar with a German new ager
named Adam Glower through his interest in the Tuley Society.
Glower was a disciple of Listen Liebenfeld, so much so

(01:04:29):
that he actually changed his name and gave himself a Vaughn,
going by Rudolph Vaughan Sebottendorf. We know Himmler was familiar
with Sebotandorf because one of the Freikorp units he joined
in nineteen nineteen was founded and run by Sebotendorf. Another
prominent Tule Society member was Dietrich Eckert, an Ariosophist who
founded a political party, the German Workers Party. Now all

(01:04:51):
of this background is necessary to understand why Himmler did
the things that he did. Once he took over the
SS in nineteen twenty nine, he was well familiar with
the secret societies that Listen Liebenfels had created. Thanks to
their example, the far right was rife with such societies,
including the Touley Society. Himmler deliberately sought to make the
SS something similar, but also something beyond what any of

(01:05:13):
those men had ever dreamed. A state within a state
like Libenfel's. He used the Knights Templar, or at least
his mental image of them, as a model. His goal
was to breed a new nobility, using the theories of
Liebenfels as a guide. Oh my god, and that's where
we're going to end. For today we still ain't Yeah, Okay, no,
I know there's a lot to get through. You really

(01:05:35):
want to understand why all of this happens the way
it does, why Nazism becomes what it is, why Himmler
does what he does with the as leader of the SS.
You need all of this history. There's so much to
get through to really are.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
We even at the third rig?

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
No, no, this is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
We're twenty nine Himmler. Hitler's a few years away from power.
We're getting close to the Nazis being in power. But like, no,
this is this is we're at.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
The moment where the party that Hitler joins just started.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
That's like, that's where I mean, we finally we're beyont
because we've gotten to Himler taking over the SS. It's
nineteen twenty nine, so we're about where I just had
to I debated between just starting with all of the
prehistory and then in episode like three, getting to Himler,
and I felt like we should explain Himmler's background then
kind of anyway, these are the choices I made. I

(01:06:32):
thought this was the best way to do it. We'll see.
It's great if it's helpful to everyone. But yeah, uh
so we're gonna end this episode. It's nineteen twenty nine.
Himmler has succeeded in rebuilding the SS up to like
a thousand men, and he has this dream of turning
it into a Nightly Order that is the new racial
elite of Europe. And in the next episodes we're gonna

(01:06:55):
see how he goes about doing that and how it
plays into the greatest, some of the greatest crimes against
humanity ever committed. But first, you know, it's not a
crime against humanity. Is props, podcast hood politics, yes, and
my cold brew Yeah, so also not a crime against me, not.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
A crime against humanity.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
Yeah, the politics for prop we're cooking, we're making, we're talking,
we're key key in all the words. It's in your
same podcast feeds. It's also on YouTube, just like this
feed terror form call Brew's back. There's links all in

(01:07:34):
all the things, and I'm just deeply troubled with yeah, yeah,
all the things I'm learning right now, things for which
you thought you knew, Like you think you know what,
you think you understand the Nazis in World War Two,
and then you learn something else and you're just like, oh.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Word, yeah, no, no, no, it's I mean again, it's
one of those things when I try to tell people, oh,
you're wrong about the Nazis, they interpreted as like, oh,
you're trying to explain that they're not as bad or whatever.
It's like no, no, no, I just want you to
understand what they really were. Right there. There is bad,
if not much worse than you think, but they are
different than you think they are. You don't full like

(01:08:13):
most people, you don't fully understand like what the Nazis believed,
and maybe you don't necessarily you don't need to to
know that they were evil, right, Yeah, hearing that the
Holocaust is enough.

Speaker 4 (01:08:26):
Yeah, I got the big Yeah, I got the big
themes here.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Learning all of this stuff, it does help you understand
stuff like, oh, it's not weird that all these Silicon
Valley oligarchs are getting involved in all this weird. It's
not weird that these these guys like Elon Musk and
all are Are and Peter Teel are obsessed with like
birth rates and you know, like the white race being
bred to extinction and you know, wanting to like that,

(01:08:50):
like all of these interests that they have. None of
this is new. All of this has happened before, and
all of it makes complete sense. It's not it's not
at all surprising that they're doing the same thing again,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
Yeah, it's the learning of this to me is like
it's the how and the why because that's always the
question is like how y'all fall into it?

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
Is like how did y'all let this slide? You know why?

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
Like you know, rather than just the idea of like well, yeah,
well they were monsters, it's like.

Speaker 4 (01:09:19):
Well no, no, no, no, no no, no, like understand this, you
know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Yeah, yeah, and understand that, like this is they're the
only thing they're interested in because they don't have anything else.
These people are nothing. They're complete failures outside of this
ideology they've created to make themselves important, right yeah, the
people like Himmler, and then at the top, the people
these like all our archs, the guys who have the money,
the guys like Schoenerer who are funding guys like Libenfels. Yeah,

(01:09:46):
they do have money. They do have power, and they
want to keep it and they see it. I want
to build. I want to use my money to like
build this ideological scaffolding that justifies me all always being
in power, right.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
Yes, yes, that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:04):
The preserving of your way of life, not even in
the in the Nazi way, I'm saying, in the money way,
like I want to be able to need I need
the line to keep going up. And this is a
way to secure.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
That yep, yep. Anyway, that's the episode. Everybody have a
good week.

Speaker 4 (01:10:23):
Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.
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(01:10:49):
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