Part Four: The Zizian Murder Spree (or Exactly How Harry Potter Fanfic Killed A Border Patrol Agent)

Robert concludes the story of the Zizians with a spree of horrific violent crimes and deaths, culminating in a shoot out with the Border Patrol in Vermont of all places.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media We're back.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh my gosh, it's behind the Bastards, a podcast where
Robert Evans ruined his life by reading too many blogs
by internet poisoned nerd rationalist people. And I deeply regret
everything I've done. How are you doing, David.

Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm good, I am. I am concerned for you. This
is a difficult place for you to spend a week.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, I've had an This is an info hazard. They're
not wrong to use that term, just not in the
way they mean it.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Yeah, exactly, this whole.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Like I I've I'm half committed to like selling my house,
putting my goats into like a big trailer and traveling
around the country finding people who are going on online
doom loops and like handing them a goat and just
like play with this goat for twenty minutes, like it
touch an animal, look into its weird little eyes.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Get off of your phone. That's Truely, you need to
go go do.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, something has to be done. Wid Yeah again, folks,
If you want to immunize your stuff to this, a
great way to do it is to just like have
friends who don't live in a boat with you, right.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Small boat?

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yeah, Yeah, let alone barely a boat.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
And talk to like, you know, my neighbor's my neighbors,
like a Mexican dude who loves gardening and has had
a completely different life than me and knows nothing of
the Internet. And I talk with them a couple of
times a week, and it's always one of the best
things for me, because I spend so much of the
rest of my time with people like Garrison, who are
all like the same things I've poisoned my brain with, Like,

(01:53):
please go find people who don't know all of the
weird Internet things you do and spend more time with them.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Aggressive on the people like Garrison.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Look, I love Garrison, but they also have started spending
a lot of their time with people who aren't in
the same weird Internet doom circles that we are, and
it's been good for them. It's good for everyone. Truly,
save yourself, Save yourself.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
It doesn't have to be like this.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
So when we left off, Ziz had kind of psychologically
jail broken her friend into suicide and then created an
info hazard named after her friend. Great Stuff, Healthy Community.
Now a few things happen in quick succession. After this point.
The rationalists start to blame passic suicide on Ziz. And

(02:46):
this is really when a lot of folks in rationalist
circles start breaking off and calling, like saying like, hey,
this is what Ziz and Winner doing. They've made like
a cult, right, And again I don't think they're really
off base here, but also they tend to ignore all
of the suicides in the rationalist community and d they
are in a cult. Yeah, you know, it's more because

(03:07):
cult is I think, like you get like they're in
a there's a cultic milieu that rationalism forms, which is
like the substrate, right, you know, if a cult is
like a plant growing up from it, Like they're like,
rationalism is this soil that is extremely optimized for growing cults.
I think that might be closer, you know, although it's

(03:29):
also one of those things where if you're just trying
to explain the storm, you can just say it's a cult.
You can say it's this weird Bay Area cult about
science and AAI and shit like that's.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Probably close enough.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah. A few things happen in quick succession after this point.
One is that a story broke later in twenty eighteen,
confirming Zizz's suspicion that the rationalism rationalist community was rife
with abuse. Two people accused an influential rationalist who worked
at Seafar, a guy named Brent Dill, of abuse while
they were dating him. Both were nineteen and he was

(03:58):
close to forty. The allations here remind me a little
of the ones against Neil Gaman. You've got a very
powerful man accused of coercing much younger women into extreme
BDSM situations, implying them with drugs. Obviously, none of this
is I don't think any of this has been litigated,
so I will continue to refer to them as allegations.
I don't know exactly what happened here, but this breaks right,

(04:19):
and it's a big deal within the community. Rumors spread
that c far had kind of tried to like hush
the whole mess down in order to protect this guy.
They conducted an internal investigation. We all know, like when
the cops do an internal investigation, right, that's always reliable.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Trust us to figure it out.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
We'll police ourselves, that's rational. This internal investigation exonerated Dil
and included the line he is aligned with Seafar's goals
and strategy and should be seen as an ally who
embodies a rare kind of agency and a sense of
heroic responsibility. There's those words again, agency, heroic responsibility. Dating

(04:59):
a nineteen year old. When you're forty and giving your
drugs good stuff, people respond with outrage. Se Far eventually
eventually banned dil from future events.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
They kind of.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
Cave and Ziz would describe Dil later as a true negative.
That's someone who both have haves of their brain. Are
even yeah, double bad? Now at this point, she still
thought yid Kowski and some other c FAR leaders might
be double good, but she's really not sure about it.
And she's especially not sure because none of them like
embrace this terminology.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
I was gonna say, at this point, has Yodkowski is
he like? Is she still? Are they on good terms?
Is he still acknowledging?

Speaker 2 (05:39):
No, she's ever on close terms with Yidkowski.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
She is.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
She is speaking and communicating directly with Anna Salomon, who
is like one of the Yadkowski's like top people quite
a lot. I don't think she's super close to yed Kowski, Like,
I'm sure they're at the same events and stuff several times,
and she sees she definitely sees him speak. She definitely
talks with him, but like, I don't think that they
ever have been close, right.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
Ok.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
She does try to force a conversation with Anna Salomon
outside of c FR HQ about this and other discovery
she and Gwynn had made on their boats, and Ziz
like writes in the blog post about it that like
she felt it was going pretty good and Anna was
listening to her. There are context clues that I don't
think Ziz picks up on that, like, oh no, Anna
immediately felt uncomfortable and like you were assaulting her, like

(06:25):
coming up to her and just like kind of barraging
her with all of this nonsense. And she did not
want to have this conversation, and she kind of pretended
that to be agree with you in order to in
this because she's not sure if you're dangerous, which.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
To be fair, you are. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Soon later, at a CFAR board meeting, Anna recommended that
Ziz be disinvited from joint Mary c Far events. And
both of these are separate organizations, but basically like the
membership overlaps or like a circle, right. Her reasoning for
not wanting Zizz at events is that Ziz war quote
black Clothes took super villains as role models and came
up with dangerous plans.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, yeah, that's correct. I forgot that she was also
wearing black roles.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
She's also started dressing like a wizard. Yes, speaking of
dangerous plans, the rationalist fleet or rat fleet was falling apart.
By this point. Coast Guard in San Mateo Harbor District
authorities had issued numerous warnings over the danger of this
tug boat leaking poison into the bay. On several occasions,

(07:32):
the calebar nearly hit other ships while drifting, like the
anchor gets fucked up. I don't know that they they
probably don't have to use it because like they're the
navy guy he is, he still as gone, he is bounced.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
He at least the judgment to cut his losses. So
they don't even know how to work boats. They do
Gwin is.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
I think Gwin's actually reasonably competent with the right and
she and and zis gets trained up. And these are
both smart enough people that I suspect their competent with
a sailboat, but like a twenty four foot sailboat and
a ninety four foot tug boat very different. That's like
I'm good with them driving my prius give me that
fucking eighteen wheeler with two with two fucking storage containers

(08:12):
on the back, shipping containers on the back. I could
probably back that thing into a parking space, no problem. Like,
they're just different, you know, damn authorities, right, And what's
very funny these accounts of like boat cops getting on
the Caleb and talking to Zizians. They're like, these people
must be sovereign citizens, which is like a.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Totally different kind of thing. And to me, I'm like,
you don't sound at.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
All like But to them, it's like this mix because
it's this mix of anarchist theory, right, because these people
are anarchists, so they're telling these cops why they don't
think the cops have any authority, but they're also like
insulting them with these like logical arguments based on obscure
rationalist doctrines.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
And these people are heavy jargon, right, heavy.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
These cops are just like, okay, so we got some sovereigns,
sob sits here, all right, it's four now. Yeah, And
again this is like the Bay Area. I think cops
in the Barrier are a little especially since they're all white,
more used to dealing with like people who are clearly
like eccentric, right than maybe like if this had happened

(09:18):
in another city. So nothing, there's not really a conflict yet.
The cops are just being like, hey, guys, you're this
But to be fair, the boat is leaking diesel into
the bay. See it as a problem, right. That's In
twenty nineteen, another scandal hits the rationalist community. The story
broke that a former employee had blackmailed the company over

(09:40):
a dispute and used donor funds to pay. This got
stacked on top of the scandal that Dill had just created, and,
as is in, many of her comrades saw it, the
issue was not whether this employee had been mistreated, but
that Miri hadn't made the proper, timeless decisions to ensure
they couldn't be blackmailed. Per an article for the Rolling
Stone quote and they're this not only represented bad decision theory,

(10:02):
but called the organization's entire existence into question. In other words,
it's not whatever happened with this employee, it's that you
didn't make the timeless decisions to make it so that
anyone would be scared to try to blackmail you, because
they'd know that your response was, so would be so
intense that proves you don't have what it takes to
really save the world, because you're not ruthless enough to
just jump to killing people like us.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
You're not a psychopath.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
You're not a psychopathy. They need psychopaths, which is good
to save the world. We love psychopaths.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
We're all we aspire to it.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
And one of the big problems within the rationalist community
is people talk about different mental health conditions as if
they're like tools in a toolbox, Like you could go
into a psychopathic mode and that's really good for accomplishing
these things. So you could you can go eighth, you
can make yourself autistic in this they talk this way, right,
I'm not saying this is this is not how anything works.

(10:53):
I'm not carrying autism and psychopathy. I'm just saying this
is how they talk, right.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yeah, they then save the world.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Right, No, that's that's not None of this is accurate
to like the way vias are, Like, you can't just
be like.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
I'm gonna turn off by autism today, I got some shit.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
No, that's not how we're And some of this is
downstream from how I think online discourse has damaged the
discussion of mental health because people sometimes do talk about
it like pokemon, you know, very much like I think
there's some issues there that that do anyway, and and
a lot of this is yeah, it's just this soup
is not exclusive to Ziz. So Ziz is banned now

(11:35):
from Marie c Far events, and her whole crew is
increasingly radicalized against the organizations they have. Also, you know,
it's both where like c Far has good reason to
not want Zizz around, but also all of Zizz most
of Zizz's complaints about rationalists like fr and Mary are
very valid, right, Like, h yeah, you're both right about

(11:56):
each other. It's like how Elon Musk and Peter Teal
would ship talk each other. It's like that you both
do have each other's number.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yes, everybody's got a point. Everybody's got a point.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
I just kind of wish you would all go away.
In November of twenty nineteen, SEEFAR held their annual alumni
reunion out in a chunk of the California Redwoods down
the stream from the street from the Bohemian Grove. The
road that passes is literally the Bohemian Highway, right. This
is like for an idea of how much money there

(12:27):
is in mainstream rationalism. Right, they are having their big
party next to Bohemian Grove. Ziz had sent an open
letter and like a letteredy at Kowski a few days
earlier or urging members of both organizations to quit in
the interest of saving the world, basically saying these groups
are so compromised they can no longer like add effectively
to the things we're trying to do to our important work.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
So you should all leave.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
And kind of the subtext is and do what me
and Gwynn are doing, you know, start ale. So on
the day of this event, Zizz, Gwinn and two others
in their circle drive up to this like this location
out in the woods with a box truck, a shuttle bus,
and a Prius and they block the entrances and exits

(13:10):
of the venue with their vehicles and they jump out
wearing black robes, guy fox masks and black gloves. Now,
this is not a violent protest I have there's no
evidence that they intended violence. They had walkie talkies, one
person had a can of mace, but like you know,
people carry mace, that's not suspicious. And all they're trying
to do is distribute flyers lying out their case against

(13:31):
CFAR and Miri. But they have blocked the entrances and
exits and they talk like sith wizards, right so everything
they say sounds cryptic and kind of threatening, and they're
wearing guy fox masks. The police get called immediately, and
as best as I can tell, it does. Maybe I'm wrong.
It seems like the Seafar MIRI people like new because

(13:53):
there's like send out an email saying hey, maybe don't come,
or like if you do, just like being note that
these weird people are here. But the venue owner, like
the people running the venue, call the cops, is what
it seems like happens. There are different allegations here. I
don't precisely know, but for whatever the case, two false
pieces of information are given to the cops when they

(14:13):
get called. They are told the cops are told one
person has a gun and another person has an axe. Right, So,
and I think it's people who worked at the venue
or make these allegations. It was definitely an employee at
the venue who were alleged that he saw an axe
a county sheriff who responded, or so it was a
person at the venue who picked up an axe and
someone saw them and reported that to the police too, right,

(14:35):
because he was scared of these people. A county sheriff
sheriff's deputy responds and immediately calls for major backup because
he's told someone has a gun, and you know, as
a cop with just kind of like a pop culture knowledge,
you hear like a bunch of people in robes and
masks with a gun outside of this big event where
like there's children doing a ropes course next door. Like,

(14:58):
his thought is, there's a mass shooting brewing, right, some
people are going to do something fucked up, right, So
he calls for a massive like swat response basically, you know,
compared to the actual danger these people present, which is
right now nil. The author that wired piece spoke to
the sheriff's deputy who responded initially a guy named Parks,
And this is that account. Quote in Parks's account which

(15:20):
he related to me. In the fall of twenty twenty three,
at a local Starbucks, the protesters were speaking in unison,
just stuff I didn't really understand, but it was somewhat rehearsed.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
He said. The group had printed.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Flyers outlining their complaints against Sefar and Miri. They alleged
that Mary had paid out blackmail using donor funds to
quash sexual misconduct allegations, and that Sefar's leader discriminates against
trans women. Other allegations were more esoteric. Sephar does not
appreciably develop novel rationality mental tech. The path to avoiding extinction,
they wrote, involved escaping containment by society through mental autonomy

(15:52):
and inter hemispheric game theory. So sore, some random sheriff's
deputy is not going to understand what's going on here?

Speaker 3 (16:06):
What the fuck are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (16:08):
He and his men default to the thing that cops
do when they get confused, which is they get violent.
Right quote. He and Rix ordered the protesters to get
on the ground. As they did, each one called out,
demanding a same gender pack down, like one might request
at an airport. All three were trans women, but Park
says he couldn't discern their genders because of the robes
and masks. Regardless that we're not going to get that

(16:29):
luxury at that time, he told me, it's like, well,
we don't know if you're a boy or a girl,
and we got a handcuff you. Parks's deputy subdued the
three and prone positions what Parks calls a high risk
style takedown, requiring more force than a normal handcuffing style.
So there's a several articles I've read will to refer
to a discrepancy between how the Zizians and the cops

(16:50):
describe these events. I've read both accounts. I really don't
see a gap. What I see is the cops describing
their violent into humanizing behavior as like this is the
normal way to respond, and this describing it as to
humanizing and traumatizing. The only question here is, like the
moral quality you give to the cops tackling a bunch
of people basically who don't have weapons because they got
a phone call, right, which, like, if you're a cop,

(17:11):
you're like, well, this is the only way to act.
And if you're I think most people like you're like, well,
probably could have just talked this situation down. I don't
see where in arrested, like yeah. Gwinn later writes this
about the experience. When we arrived, a staff member called
the police and falsely told them we had a gun
and that we were going into buildings, and that that
we were too afraid to get off the phone, they
were too afraid to get off the phone. Later report

(17:33):
said there was an active shooter with a duffel bag.
None of us had a duffel bag. Police arrived with
their guns out and we were immediately arrested within about
ten minutes of us arriving, after which we were sexually assaulted.
In my case, I was groped and I had my
pants pulled down and then sat on by an officer
in a mounting position. They are mocked and derided like
as their naked, cops are making comments about their bodies.

(17:54):
It's like a really ugly situation, right, And I have
no trouble believe that this is true because it comports
with dozens of arrest stories I've heard in multiple states.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
Yeah, it's part for the course.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, And it's also the fact that they are specifically
the police are making fun of them for being trans
is very much in line with what statistics say about
trans people and police violence. A twenty thirteen report from
the Anti Violence Project found that trans individuals are seven
times likely or to experience violence while in interacting with
the police than cisgender people. So I have no trouble
believing Gwin's accounts.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Here, even though.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Again I treat her with proper scrutiny in most areas,
this all seems like what cops do.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
Now.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
The other big discrepancy where the Zizzians are I think
a little off base, is that they claim they are
immediately dead named and misgendered by the newspapers covering their
initial arrests. And they are dead named. But the newspapers
don't really have an option here.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Right, right. They don't talk.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
When they're arrested, right, which is a very normal thing
for like a protest. They say absolutely nothing and they
have no idea on them. So the police fingerprint them,
which brings up their legal names, and that's what's given
to the newspapers. So like the initial news articles aren't trying.
This is just the only name available. But it escalates
this situation, right, And it is worth noting that a
number of outlets do continue to dead name them up

(19:14):
to the present, but that initial reporting it's like, well
that's just the only information that was available. But all
of this is going to like there, this is this
court case is going to where on they get charged
initially with felonies. Baylis said it like fifty grand for
Ziz and Gwynn. This is eventually reduced and they're reduced
to misdemeanors, but it takes like four days for them

(19:36):
to make bail. And there they will be finding because
they're going to counter sue over these arrests, and both
the trauma of the arrests, their anger over them, and
the fact that there's the stress of this year's long
court battle is going to have this extremely deleterious effect
on everybody's mental health when they're already not doing well. Right, Arreth,
that's great stuff. Yeah, around this time the rash the

(20:01):
Zizzi ends move they stop doing their fleet thing right,
they move out of the boats, and they kind of
end things by leaving their tugboat adrift because there's nothing
to do with a ninety four foot tug boat.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
Nobody can handle a tug.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Boat, right, Like, it's too big to do much with
and they they probably could have figured something out, but
they decide the opportunity cost of figuring out how to
dispose of this boat is it will it will distract
from their important work, so it's okay for it to
sink and cause like a modest environmental crisis by leaking
diesel into the Bay. Basically, Ziz decides that the value

(20:35):
of all the sea life that it kills is less
than the value of them continuing their work, which at
this point, if you're keeping track, is trying to figure
out how to live out of box trucks. So that's
what they're doing now. And this is where a guy
named Curtis.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
The living space. They've got a worse living space. They
made it worse than boats.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Oh boy, I can't tell you how much of this
story is just the result of Bay Area rent prices
being unreasonable. Yeah, yeah, it's a really just like Superman one.
So enter Curtis Linde Lynd is a guy. He was
like a he made his career doing shipping. He lived

(21:19):
in a boat in and around where Ziz and her
friends were living at sea, and they met each other
through that. He like sells them an anchor. But he's
also like push an eighty and so he's got he's
interested in like getting out of the boat life because
it sucks. And he's got a plot of land that
he he's he's got a house on and he's got
extra space that he's interested in renting out. There's not
like most there's not like full houses, but there's like

(21:39):
some shipping containers and I think like some RVY go
busted RV or whatever, and he's got like some power
and water hookups. Here's how his son Carl described what
his father wanted to do with this place. He just
wanted this as a place to let artists or woodworkers,
electricians to be able to come and live in a
little trailer and have a container where they could work
and put their two us and have a safe place.

(22:02):
So again, depending on how you're looking, he's either trying
to like have a cheap space where like, you know,
artists and the like can afford to like survive and
have little working spaces, or he's trying to be like
a punk slum lord. Right, And I mean the line
is thin, right, The line is thin.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
The line is so thin.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Speaking of a thin line, the sponsors of this podcast
are the thin line keeping society safe from me not
having enough money to live in a boat, you know,
or this is why I have enough money to live
in a boat where I would go crazy, or a

(22:41):
box truck or a.

Speaker 3 (22:42):
Box truck to live in a box truck. The joy.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, we're we're talking about how good it is to
live in a box truck.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
Good stuff.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Is at this point, I think at any given time,
there's between like six and nine people, you.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
Know, okay, okay, so very small.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Very very small somewhere in that neighborhood. It fluctuates, and
there's also there's a bunch of people who are like
you could call them Zizians. They're in and out. They'll
visit sometimes or they even live in other states, but
they're always in contact with multiple members of the group
through the Internet. This is a very like geographically decentralized group,
although there is that like core inner circle who are

(23:27):
all together on this land and for a while things
are okay there the Zizians pay Rent ziz continues to
write blog posts and run her followers through Uni hemispheric
sleep sessions to upgrade them. And you know, it's also
important for me to know they don't ever call themselves Zizians.
That name first comes up around this period of time,
right after that disastrous protest, when an anonymous rationalist publishes

(23:52):
a paper called like Zizians dot info that first identifies
them as a cult and describes like their union hemispheric
sleep tactics, and it's it's written because this person is
in the community and wants to stop other people from
falling in with Ziz. And I think they have good
intentions here. They like see the danger they also one
of the issues with the document is I don't think

(24:13):
they see some of the danger of other rationalists stuff.
Yeah right, This is like why I say that it's
like a cultic substrate rather than being a pure cult,
because there are people in it who can recognize stuff
like this and try to, you know, provide a degree
of like accountability. Just like there are people who will
like report on and they help. They hold seafar S
feet to the fire when people get accused of abuse.

(24:36):
So the document alleges that Ziz had started telling her
followers she was the basically she's the only double good
or intrinsically good person there and one of the only
intrinsically good people on the planet.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
Uhs.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Sessions tended to reveal that other people in the community
are just single good and per Ziz's theories about the
hero contract, they can only accomplish maximum good by feeding
their energy and resources to the heroes.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
Ziz.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Here's an example of the kind of things she sent
people she saw as single good saying your single good
is saying help, I have a yerk in my head.
Did you ever read Anamorphs as a book?

Speaker 3 (25:08):
David? Wow?

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yes, Oh that's a reference to is those worms that
control your brain? And that's not right? Yeah, yeah, that's yes.
I know, deep cut, deep cut?

Speaker 3 (25:20):
Whoa not un luck to part of my brain that
I have not used for right? Right?

Speaker 2 (25:25):
A bunch of people are now like having like the
severance moment, but like remembering every Scholastic book fair they
ever went to is again.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Man oh man, all they gotta do is hit goosebumps
to me.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
I know, I know only so saying your single good
is saying help, I have a yerk in my head.
That's a merror image of me. I need you to
surgically destroy it, even if I'm then crippled for life
or might die in the process. Then kill me if
I ever do one evil act for the rest of
my life. That's better than being a slave again. That's
her role is surgically destroying the evil brains of her

(26:01):
half brains of her followers, and then she has to
be willing to murder them if they ever do anything bad,
because if they ever do anything bad, then it means
that the evil side could take over and it could
do like Megabad right, doom the world. She and she
takes this on herself, yes, and also I mean she's
gonna have other people do the killing basically, but like, yes,

(26:21):
this is what she's saying is the stakes, and this
is how she sees her role within the community. Right,
And I think at this point that's pretty could leader,
that's pretty good. I think we're probably crossed that KT boundary, right. Yeah. Yeah,
saying you got to murder people because they're the devil
the yurk inside their brain. Yeah, it might be a

(26:44):
little bit of cult weather feels like a cult outside.
So some Zizians, not implicated in any crimes, have attacked
this piece, this Zizians dot info things being inaccurate and
basically a rationalist hit job. And again there's there's some
reason for suspicion here, but most of the claims made
in it I have backed up through reading the individual sources.

(27:06):
One of the issues of that a lot of people
writing about this will credit ziz with all of the
una hemispheric stuff, and that's mostly Gwynn. So there's a
point worth making around this time, a woman named Jamie
Zashko started living nearby with her girlfriend, Alice Monday. Both
are rationalists that are interested in Zizz's ideas. Alice and

(27:27):
Ziz have been in contact for years, and in fact, Alice,
because she's an older and more established rationalist, when Ziz
was kind of new to the community, had since Ziz
an article on the Gervais principle for the first time,
which had spawned her ideas about needing to jail break
people into psychopathy, and at varying times, Ziz would claim
Alice as a mentor. There are some I don't like,

(27:48):
very vague accounts that Alice has done some problematic, abusive
stuff in the community. I don't know trree any of
that is, but this is what people talk about, and
I think Ziz may have had a break with her
over some sort of disagreement, because it looks it seems
like from what I can tell, Jamie, who is dating
Alice at the time, is in direct contact with Ziz
and interested in her, but also is not communicating with

(28:11):
Ziz under her real name. She is making a bunch
of sock puppet accounts on her blog, and she is
specifically commenting and trying to engage Zizz in different conversations,
pretending to be multiple different people to quote unquote sabotage
the whole. She believed another woman in the community, Emma Borhanian,
had on Zizz and Borhanian is that former Google engineer. Okay,

(28:34):
so this is you know, this is part of the
messy thing, is that like these people are all influencing
each other and trying to like their kind of go
to is like mind games to fuck with each other's heads.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
Yeah, not a lot of straight conversation. Huh.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
No, Now, Imma Borhanian, who Jamie alleges his life girlfriend. No,
Jamie's dating Alice Monday. I'm sorry, but Borhanian is this
former Google engineer who has been with Ziz since the
Rationalist Fleet days. And Jamie thinks that she's controlling Ziz
and she has like this bad influence that's leading them in.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
A bad direction.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
And I've read Borhanian's blog too, because of course I
had to. Emma is she was as long winded as Ziz,
fewer pop culture references. She wrote a lot about narcissism,
but unlike most of these people, she tended to use
a or She's like, I don't know, I don't understand
the kind of points she's trying to make about narcissist,

(29:31):
but she's very interested in the idea of like how
narcissists work. Jamie didn't like Emma, and she claims that
because Emma and another member of the community had started
shit talking Alice to Ziz and convinced her that Alice
was double evil. So Jamie creates all these sock puppet
accounts to argue with Ziz with the goal of fucking
with her head and making her distrust Emma quote, I

(29:52):
adopted a variety of different personas, many of whom claim
to have beliefs I've never held her endorsed for the
sake of determining how Ziz would react to these characters.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
So this isn't what and then what?

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yes, exactly, There's never seems to be a plan behind
fuck with each other's mental health constantly. It's like this
is because they're always there's all these overlapping fields of
influence between all of these mostly women, and everyone is
fucking with each other's heads deliberately and also constantly trying
to hack and upgrade each other. Is basically scientology in

(30:23):
the form of a codependent friend group, right, Like, that's
what that's what's happening. Wow, this is so bad for everybody.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
It's oh man, it just they just dig deeper and
deeper and deeper.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yes, yes, that's what happens. Again if you don't this
is the you know, the touch grasp has been turned online.
People have some, as you said, some problematic ways of
discussing it. But this is the importance of like turning
out from your weird little subculture right now and again, and.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Like, yes, definitely, because the world. How often are they
interacting with all the world, like in general.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Very rarely, And most of the people they do interact
with are like these other people who are kind of
on the edge of dropping out of society, living on
this guy's property, this eighty year old dance and extracts.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Who. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
So, while Jamie and Zizz are fighting online, COVID hit
and with it comes that eviction moratory in the state
of California. So Ziz and her friends they stop paying
rent to to lend, either because they're broke or just
because they don't need to anymore. And more than a
year goes by. In April of twenty twenty one, Ziz
posts this to her blog. Housing in places like the

(31:38):
Bay Area is a hierarchy of rent seekers and the
rent seekers above landlords rule by rules, surplus, selective enforcement, fear, uncertainty,
and doubt corruption. It's all a complex and it makes
landlords incredibly vulnerable to blackmail from someone who can do
even a little bit of investigative work. It's bad praxice
to pay them rent.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
So again, she get it. I get it.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
But this is also going to lead you to a
bad place. This is where we get to divergent stories.
Curtis Lynde, the landlord's story is that he was very
supportive of these people and of trans people in general,
taking one Zizi and out to shop for her first bra.
His friends and family say he was a decent guy.
And I actually, when I started talking about writing these

(32:21):
episodes on Blue Sky, someone chimed in to say they
had known him too, and that he was a nice person.
I don't know to ziz He was a landlord, and
there are claims from the Zizians that he was verbally
abusive and transphobic. By the end of twenty twenty one,
after a year and a half of unpaid rent, Lynde
had started working on the process of having police vic them.
He and other residents claimed that the Zizzians had become aggressive,

(32:42):
acting as if the property was theirs, now threatening other people,
basically squatting on it, and like being violent at times,
including like throwing rocks at Lynn's cabin and brandishing knives
at other people.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Sore knives.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, yeah, they have taken to like threateningly playing with
knives while talking about how they will not leave the
property or pay rent, And you get the feeling like
I'm not again, I'm not against the idea that this
again ambitious slumlord may have done some problematic things, but
it sounds like the Zizzi ends are being pretty deeply

(33:15):
abusive to everyone around them right right, which is also
they believe is praxis. Is like these other people who
are not who don't who aren't double good, and who
aren't aware of the great work they're not working towards
the cause they're a causal is the term they're use.
Their lives don't really have value if you're not working
for the cost. Ziz earlier will decide.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
It's not like they're doing outreach, right, It's not like
they're trying to convert their neighbors or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
They're trying to convert rationalists, but they don't care about
these weirdos living on the property with them, right right,
and again, remember, like Ziz had earlier decided that it
would be worth four human lives for her to like
get a she would kill four people to get a
shower before work, right, basically.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
With the yeah, yeah, yeah, so that these people don't
have a.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Lot of value for other people right now. The court
case over the protest arrests dragged on, and in November
of twenty twenty one, Ziz and her friends who'd been
arrested filed a countersuit against Sonoma County, as well as
several individuals associated with Sea Far and the venue. By
the time twenty twenty two starts, the pressure is on
for Ziz and the people living with her to figure
out what they're going to do next. They do, at

(34:21):
some point work at a deal with Curtis Will, who
give them a little more time to fix their RV
if they promise to bounce as soon as possible. Ziz
is no longer actively adding to her blog, but she's
still responding to comments and communicating with other sympathetic rationalists Regularly.
She becomes much more focused in her writing in this
period on vengeance, violence, and death, as do others in
her community. Per Wired quote, Lesta and others wrote, a

(34:44):
vengeance against the timeless decisions of others. If you truly
irreconcilably disagree with someone's creative choice i e. Their choice
extending arbitrarily, fallen far into the past and future, ultimately
your only recourse is to kill them one, Lesoda ally
wrote in a long blog post citing Zizz's philosophies. In
the comments, Losoda wrote, I am so fucking glad to

(35:05):
finally have an equal treat stuff. In spring of twenty
twenty one, one of the Rationalist Fleet veterans close to Zizz,
Jay Winterford, who went by the name Fluttershy, killed themselves.
They had Winterford had written about seeing Zizz's techniques as
a way to deal with his childhood trauma, and Lesoda

(35:27):
wrote on her blog about her repeated attempts to fix
and upgrade him. Now, Ziz wrote about this person and
calls him a death knight, And as best as I
can tell, a death knight is a Zizi in term
for someone who snaps and murders a bunch of people.
She calls Hitler a death knight, but she also uses
the term for mass shooters, and she claims Winterford quote
tried very hard to convince me and then us to

(35:49):
join them in service of the Goddess of rape and death.
Straight up declared intentions to kill us, did a bunch
of horrible shit, like said they were going to do
even more horrible shit. I spent about seven months, most
of every day in a desperate and mutual mental battle
trying to get in their head somehow how understand this
death drive thing I couldn't simulate in my own mind
that made no sense, and out predict them like all
their lives in the world depended on it. And basically

(36:10):
this person's talking about doing like a mass shooting or
some other terrorist attack against the rationalist community in Ziz's name,
and Ziz claims that she's like spent seven months trying
to stop them from doing this, and then finally they
just kill themselves rather than killing anybody else. And again
they framed Ziz froms is like their heroic battle to

(36:30):
stop this person from murdering other people and damaging the cause.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
But like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Maybe maybe like this person needed professional help when they
started talking about wanting to do a mass killing when
it's running to murder a bunch of people, maybe they
needed help, like not your help.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
I don't know if anyone needs Zizz's help. No, No,
Ziz does not even needs help. No.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
And she weaves this person's death into this very this
messianic hero's journey for herself posting this in the summer
of time. Two since posting this, I have been tortured,
survived seven assassination attempts, three more attempts to do me
permanent bodily harm. Four people individually decided they had the
sole rights to be my death love arch nemesis, as
if they'd be alone. Accidentally exposed myself to a one

(37:14):
hundredth of my hell, and one committed suicide. Others utterly
mentally cracked. No one knows what she's talking about with
these assassination attempts. There all just someone may have given
her a mean look at a grocery store, and she's
just right, like that's the mind STAPs out right.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Rationalists who had declared as a cult leader considered all
of this further evidence that she was dangerous again. Rationalists
also convinced people to kill themselves be alogic traps, but like,
they're not wrong to point this out now. I brought
up Jamie's Ashco and Alice Monday a little earlier. They
had moved out of the Bay in late twenty twenty
and headed to Vermont, where Jamie, who had some family money,

(37:57):
bought land in a gun. In February of twenty two,
she made a blog post with the subtitle I trolled
Ziz and now she wants to murder me. In it,
she claimed, she talks about how, like, yeah, she made
all these fake accounts, and in late twenty twenty one,
she and Ziz finally start talking under their real names,
and Ziz talks about these trolling messages from the fake
accounts Jamie had made, and like said that they really

(38:18):
fucked with her head. And so Jamie, who's starting to
view Zizz as a friend, comes out and admits what
she did, and Ziz responds by saying, the only way
you can make this right is to murder your like
girlfriend ex girlfriends. A little unclear, Alice Monday, my old
mentor like, you have to kill this person for me
in order to make this right. Here's what Jamie writes.

(38:40):
During her last phone call, Ziz informed me that the
only way I could gain her trust and make up
for what I did was to murder Alice, preferably sometime soon.
Ziz helpfully suggested I use a gun with a potato
as a makeshift suppressor, and that I might destroy the
body with lie, and then told me that after I
should video call Ziz and show her the body before
I destroy it so she could get proof bositive that

(39:00):
I'd really done it, and if I didn't do it,
Ziz plan to drive across the entire entire continental United
States to murder me.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Great, the di is cast, the die is cast. Now shit.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Jamie says that Ziz wants Alice dead because she thinks
Alice is a mentor and she's got this whole Sith
thing going on, so she's like, guess with the sith
always kill their mentor. So I have to kill Alice
or I can't get powerful enough to.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Save the world. Great, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
I love philosophy, A story that has escalated so crazy
it is wild to hear it, where it's like, okay,
this is where, this is where it starts the wheel
start to really this is where that border patrol officer's
death becomes inevitable.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Yeah, because now you feel like us backed herself into
a corner where someone's going to die. Yes, someone like
talking about it. You're threatening it, seriously, you're telling it like,
at this point, right is someone this is going to happen?

Speaker 2 (39:59):
At this point if outside power comes in to disrupt
these thought chains and decision chains, someone is going to die.
And no one does come in, right, and several people die?

Speaker 3 (40:11):
I mean, how could it someone rationally even? How could I?
How could right? How could how could someone even get there?
How do you think about.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
You think about something like fifty one, fifty this this
fluttershy person, right or fifty or fifties?

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Is?

Speaker 3 (40:26):
Does that make it better? Probably not?

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Probably just makes them even more paranoid and angry and
convince to do violence.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
You're like eleventh assassination.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
I don't know how you fix this at this point.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
No, No, it's it's it might be is I think
it might be too far gone?

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, there's there's I'm sure there's some possible way that
this could have been fixed, but it's not clear to.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
Me, and who who would be the person, doesn't right,
who would be the person to do it? Maybe get
George Lucas in there. George yes, Oh my god, that's.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
So so Ladies have taken your movies way too seriously.
We need George sound and talk them out of committing murders.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
This is gonna sound crazy. There's a bunch of people
in a box truck wanting to kill in your name.
Get Ricky Gervase.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Get Ricky Gervas and George Lucas on a fun chopper,
get him in here on a black They gotta talk
these people down.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
Oh shit, fuck, oh man, it's so funny.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Just a week later, George Lucas is completely in the cult.
He's wearing all black.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
He's living no no, no, no. So he's writing. It's
not even fan fiction. He's writing canonical.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Stars, writing canonical star wars. Ponder that and ponder these ads,
my friends. We'll be back with more. So we're back now.
Jamie is one of the few people who is like

(42:05):
as good at manipulating zizz as zizz at other people
in this community. And after zis is like, hey, look
very high mana this is like, look, I'll have to
kill you if you don't kill Alice, you know, and
you know I'll do it because it's a timeless decision.
Jamie counters in a very effective way by saying, like
making a blog post saying Ziz said all this, I

(42:26):
am not suicidal. If I die, it's her, and also
letting Ziz know quote I have friends who will avenge me.
Murdering Alice or me now is tantamount to committing suicide
by proxy. So they have this like checkmate counter checkmate,
chess match in blog posts that gets interrupted in March
when Gwynn fakes her death, probably to escape the litigation,

(42:47):
they're all.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
Yeah, Gwinn, get out of here.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Gwinn does make the good decision because sometime after faking
her death she bounces from this whole community. She does
get out of there.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
Okay, there was just.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
No way this story was going to end without a
deaf somebody faking their own death.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Oh yeah, Sophie, so excited for you. This story doesn't
even end. This story like Late middles with two death fakings,
because in September of twenty twenty two, Zizz fakes her
death in a boding accident on the Black Signet. Emma
calls the cops says that she fell overboard the Coastguard.
They work so hard to try to find her and

(43:24):
save her that they get fatigue waivers so they can
work all night. But they find nothing because she's not dead.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
On the block signal.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
I don't know where she actually was, but she doesn't.
She's not dead. Zizz is declared dead and her of
her family prints an obituary. Like Gwinn's death, faking is
a little less successful. Like their lawyer in court after
they come in with legal evidence that Zizz is dead.

(43:53):
Gwin's law here is like, I really don't think they're dead.
I think they're faking it.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
What an a lawyer.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
These lawyers don't like they don't like their lawyers.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Well, now that's where they fucked up. You can't your
lawyer has to ride for you.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah that look l Ron, who knows what they're talking about?
These people at this this is what's going on. The
sanest decision one of them is made is to fake
their death.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
More lawyers in this story, maybe maybe a couple of lawyers.
A digital could have fixed this.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
So I don't know precisely the lawyer money. No, these
are these are public defenders. So Gwynn clearly fakes their
death just to clear themselves of their legal problems. I
think does it for that, But also she and her
closest friends are now plotting the murder of Curtis Lynde.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
We don't really, Yeah, that's the la now.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
They want to kill Curtis, Yes, yes, they want to
kill Curtism.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
They want to stay on the land? Is that the
kind of the thought.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
I think they want to stay on the land. I
think they also their escalation logic is that if he
is having the Cops evict us, that is a situation
that could end in our deaths. So he's trying to
murder us, so the logical thing for us to do
is to kill him now to protect us both from
him and from other people, and.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Then has sex with his body. I don't.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
I don't think they're going to do that, but they
are at least aware of that as an option.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
So the team.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah, So the reality of what happens next is a
little bit in dispute. But what no one disagrees is
that on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, this is like
right after midnight, Curtis Lynde is stabbed repeatedly and impaled
with a samurai sword. He also, during the same altercation,
shoots and kills Imma Borhanian and wounds another member of
the group. And one Tumblr post, a Zizion with the

(45:53):
username A Flower by another Name gives what I think
is probably a representative example of how the Zizians want
to depict what happened next. What happened here kurt quote,
Curtis Lynde and his ex CIA best friend Patrick McMillan
spent months threatening Emma and her friends. Unlike what the
papers claim, Emma and her friends weren't squatters. They were

(46:14):
tenants who were struggling to find jobs or a place
that would least to them after Mierkan Seafar called a
swat team on them in twenty nineteen.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Now, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
If McMillan was in the CIA, and I don't know
if he and Curtis threatened these ladies, but I will
say the preponderance of evidence suggests they were in fact squatting.
This account blames them on not being able to make
rent on their legal bills, but by this point they
had been squatting for like two years in change. I
don't know if Lynde was transphobic, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (46:41):
You know.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
They say he alienated them from their neighbors by telling
them that they were in a cult. I don't know
if that's true, or if they alienated their neighbors by
being very off putting and aggressive. This Zizian account claims
that other individuals started threatening to call the cops on
the Zizians and thus quote it was an unending nightmare
for them of terrifying, insane threats from every corner. Now,
the author of this document says they weren't there themselves,

(47:05):
but believes heard, like other members of the community, explain
what happened, and they said that lynd made specific threats
in the fall of twenty twenty two, which culminated in
one member of the group buying a bulletproof veest and
wearing it at all times. I don't trust this account,
and among other things, it lies about the nature of
their living situation. It lies by saying Emma had filed

(47:26):
paperwork to take Curtis to court over the eviction. There
was no court thing filed here. There's a very good
comprehensive source on this by an individual who goes by
Ken the Cowboy on Twitter, and he notes in this
timeline of events, the last sentence is not true. There's
no record of any lawsuit being filed in twenty twenty
two with any of the Zizians as plaintiffs and with

(47:47):
Curtis Lynde as a defendant. So they claim basically, this
guy was aggressive and threatening us, and one day he
attacked us, right quote. That morning he decided to stop them.
He walked all the way from his trailer to their
trucks while they were packing their things and opened fire.
Lynde shot Emma point blank through her heart and lung.
She collapsed to the ground and immediately her lung began

(48:07):
filling with her heart's blood. She died within twenty seconds,
violently coughing up chunks of her lung tissue and a
feutal attempt to clear her airways. Soomny was shot six
times rushing in a fetal attempt to save Emma's life.
The vest saved her life, but she was still hit
through the neck and stomach. She acted only in self defense.
That's the Zizzian claim here, that he just walks in
as they're getting ready to leave and starts shooting them, right, Yeah,

(48:29):
that's stupid, now, that's their claim. This leaves out a
very important fact, which is that Curtis Linde is stabbed
fifty times.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
Fifteen.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yes, Lind's account is somewhat less sympathetic to these people.
He claims that after getting successfully getting a judgment against
them in a court, he moved to a vict and
the sheriff agreed to do an eviction on November fifteenth.
And this is what Lynn later said, quote so they're
worried about where they were going to go and what
they were going to do. And they had a meeting
with me, and the meeting was about them staying for

(49:01):
another two months and not paying I said, no, I
can't do that. So one of them took out a knife.
It was a folding knife. It was a fairly large
folding knife. It started patting the blade in their hand
like this and looking at me and smiling. And they
don't specify who this was. I don't know, like you
know entirely, like which person he's accusing here or whatever.

(49:23):
But he says this is how his account of like
the attack itself is that after this, after he gets
threatened with a knife, he goes in he buys a
pistol and he gets a license to carry, and then
right before the sheriffs are supposed to show up to
evict them, one of the Zizians named Surrey shows up
and she tries to get him to like come help

(49:44):
turn the water off and her trailer. So he goes
over to there to turn the water off, and as
he bins over to do that, he gets hit with
something that shatters the right side of his skull quote
And the next thing I remember is standing up with
three of them right next to me, you know, or
around me, And I was bleeding from numerous puncture wounds,
I think around fifty. I couldn't see out of my
right eye, had been punctured three times. The back of

(50:04):
my neck had some severe cuts, like someone was trying
to cut my head off. You know, I had no
idea what was happening or when this had all happened.
I was completely gone while this was happening. And how
I stood back up or got to that spot, I
have no idea. But I looked at all the blood
coming out of me. Oh, and I had a sword,
a long sword all the way through my chest right
next to my heart, sticking out the other end, which
I went to the hospital with. I was afraid to

(50:26):
take it out, but anyway, at that time, I pulled
out my pistol and started shooting. I killed the person
to my right. And I gotta say, based on the
physical evidence, I think Lind's account is the real one
of what happens here. I think they ambush him and
stab him repeatedly, and he shoots and kills one in
self defense. Obvious, Like again, he has a samurai sword

(50:49):
entirely through his bed.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
We acknowledge that this meant took fifty to the chest eighty. Yeah,
it don't make him like that anymore.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
And it's one of those one of the doubting claims
by the Zizians is that, like, he couldn't have survived
being stabbed this many times. People survive getting stabbed a
crazy amount of times all the time. It's all like,
if you read about enough stabbing accounts, you will read
about people who die because they get stabbed once, and
you will read about people who live through getting like
seventy stab wounds. It's nuts. Stabbings are very hard to predict.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Tricky, tricky, yeah, And also it's also so worrisome because
now they've done it, right, They've crossed that line.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
They've crossed that line, and one of them has died.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
Right, Yes, some steaks are as high as they had
always thought that they were.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
And when the box trucks are cleaned out after they
get arrested, the ones who had carried out the attack,
because Ziz is on the property and I think Winn
is too still at this point, but Ziz does not
participate in the attack, and like cops recognize Ziz and
know that she's faking her death and don't arrest her,
which is one of like the weird things.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
Like they're familiar enough to know that.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, I think this is that because like they've been
called before. Yeah, I think that they're aware of who
she is, but just don't do even after this mass
stabbing shooting. Like again, the cops just don't do their jobs. Also,
as part of this story, you know, it's a It's

(52:16):
also worth noting that when they this after this arrest,
when like their box trucktsure being cleaned out, they find
tubes of containers of lie, which you know, Ziz had
talked to Jamie about dissolving bodies and lie. That's probably
what the plan was with Curtis. My guess is that's
certainly what Curtis gets convinced of. Now my thinking and

(52:37):
I can't this is not proven. I'm sure courts will try,
will see how well they are able to do this
in a court. My suspicion is that Ziz orchestrated this
attack and convinced her friends to do it, or convinced
them to convince themselves to do it, and justified it
using the same escalatory logic that they used on everything else.
On her blog, when discussing theoretical acts of deadly violence,

(52:59):
Ziz referred to what she called Quirrel's algorithm from the
Harry Potter Rationalist fan pick that these people all love,
and she quoted this line from the book describing the
mental state she believed was necessary to survive a life
threatening situation, intent to kill, think purely of killing, grasp
at any means to do so, censors off, do not flinch, kill.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
Again. This Harry Potter book really now goes all the
way back to that.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
Yeah, be careful what you write, authors, You might get
someone st impaled by a samurai. Sort of course they had,
of course they had a samurai sword. I'm sure they
bought them all from the Budkay catalog.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
So Ziz had.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Also written in late twenty twenty one in a comment
on her blog, I get so many people lining up
to commit suicide by Ziz and then she hyperlinks to
the wiki for suicide by cop and her meaning is
that anyone acting in a way to like harm her
or her goals is killing themselves because she has to
kill them now.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Right.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
And there's a good medium post by someone named Sepha
Shapiro that traces around how this time, how around this time,
this is online writing becomes increasingly obsessed with the idea
of using deadly violence to make oneself less vulnerable, right,
that you again, you have to always be ready to
kill in order to protect yourself. So the police arrest

(54:21):
two of her friends, Somny and Surrey Dow, who are
the two surviving Zizians who'd taken part in the attack,
and they take them to jail. Per a California law,
these two are not just charged with trying to kill Curtis,
but with the murder of their friend Emma. It's like
if you know three people rob a liquor store and
one of them kills someone, the other two will get
charged with murder because someone died in the commission of
a crime that they were involved in. Right, it's California

(54:43):
state law. A lot of people get life sentences as
a result of this, usually not in this exact scenario,
but non.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
Usually not.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Soomny was placed in a men's jail and complained dow
after being a sign into a women's jail, demanded a
men's jail. I think this is because they were trying
to like make a case that they weren't in their
right mind. But it's kind of unclear to me exactly
why this happens. There's a lot in terms of these
two and their interactions with the court system that I'm
not gonna get into, right because it's it's just we

(55:21):
simply can't go down all of those rabbit holes. But
you should know that, like the like this is a factor,
and everyone's thinking is, like their two friends are in prison,
they're constantly sending these letters to the judge. They're like
making these like weird rationalist arguments in their court cases,
and like that's all going down while Zizz and the
remainder of her inner circle kind of go on the run, right,

(55:42):
because you know, now they've been involved in a murder, right,
Gwynn seems to go go fully into hiding at this time.
I don't know if that's because of the murder or
just because she had finally had enough of Ziz and
all of her talk about killing, but in any case,
she goes to ground around this point. Now, well, all
this is going on, I hate to keep bringing in
new people, but there's a bunch of them. Jamie up

(56:06):
in Vermont, I don't think is continuing to seeing Alice
Monday anymore. Alice seems to have also made the wise
decision to fucking bounce and go to ground. Jamie is
living with another Ziz follower named Daniel Blank up in
Vermont at this point, and Jamie has gotten increasingly into
Ziz's ideas. Blank is one of the people we know.

(56:27):
He delivers several documents to the court Onsomny's behalf during
this whole, like after they go get charged with murder,
and he is like a guy who has like a
job and you know, stuff going on in his life.
And then like a month after this shooting stabbing, he
drops out of society, cuts ties with his family, and
quits his job to go live with Jamie and like,

(56:48):
it's kind of a little unclear of exactly what's happening,
but my belief is basically Jamie and the people who
are around her who are up in Vermont, who are Zizians,
are being before Ziz gets They're told to prepare for
Ziz because they want to get access to money and
a private property, a compound right where they can both

(57:08):
not be on the run, have a living space and
continue to work on their ideas. That is what I
think is happening. And Daniel blank is someone who has
been following Ziz online, gets convinced to drop out of
his life, cut ties with everybody move in with this
person Jamie, and it looks like they're cient kind of
working to like ready a situation for Ziz and the

(57:28):
Zizzians in Vermont. And again there's a lot of this
that has not been litigated yet, but what we know
is that on December thirty first, twenty twenty two, Jamie's
Ashco's parents, who are seventy two and sixty nine respectively,
are murdered in their home.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
Oh my god, I do on the property in Vermont.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
They know they live in a separate state. They live
in Pennsylvania. Right, But we don't know who committed this murder.
No one has yet been charged for it. Unlike in
the Lend stabbing, we do not have an obvious explanation.
There is a ring that shows an unknown vehicle pulling
into the driveway, followed by screams. Some investigators think they
hear someone yell mom before another person yells oh my god,

(58:09):
Oh my god. But other people who have viewed the
recording say that it's unclear if that first word is mom.
I have not seen this recording, so I can't tell
you what's accurate. But Zashko's parents were worth several million
dollars and had a sizeable estate to inherent.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Yeah, you said that she had bought the property initially
off of family money.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Right, she's got some amount of access to it, right,
and her last right before these people are murdered. Jamie's
mom messages with Jamie earlier that same day about savings
bonds that Zashco is due to receive. In blog posts
from twenty twenty one, Zashco had written about her parents
and repeatedly accused them of being abusers. One specific accusation

(58:48):
she makes is that they snuck meat into her food
and forced her to eat it after she expressed a
desire to go vegan. So she has talked extensively online
about her parents being fundamentally evil people. We know that
at this point she lives with Daniel Blank, and that
their phones go dark right around the time of the murder,
as if they had like placed them in a faraday bag.

(59:10):
Basically okay, right, but we don't know where they are
on the day of the murder. Police visit them in
Vermont shortly after the murder because obviously the daughter is
someone that you're going to think of as a potential like,
because one of the things about the murder is that
whoever did it had some degree of knowledge of the
property and an ability to get on it without forcing
an entry. Right, So obviously the cops they're going to think,

(59:31):
who's the next of Ken, Right, So police visit them
on their property in Vermont and talk to Blank and
Jamie Jamie. They ask if she has a gun. Jamie
says yes, and she shows them a handgun that she
owns that is the same caliber as the one used
in the shootings. Now that doesn't necessarily mean much. It's
a nine milimeter ton of nine.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
Right.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
There's one thing the cops will point out is that
Zasco owned the same type of bullet, the same makeup
bullet as those used in the shooting. But again, like
I the bullets I use keeping my carry gun are hydroshocks,
which is like what cops can because that's the safest
thing in court if you're in a defensive shooting. You
want to be like, I have the same bullets the
cops have, right, because you don't want to have like

(01:00:11):
the the man shredder, zombie rounds or some shit. So
the fact that like a common defensive caliber would murdered
these people was in the gun. That's not a smoking gun,
if you'll forgive it. But it also is like that's
not nothing either, right, you know, like that's not nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Right. What means more.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Is that Jamie is now the full beneficiary of her parents' estate,
and while she has not been charged, an attorney for
Pennsylvania has filed a potential slayer statute issue, which is
a law in Pennsylvania that you can't inherit someone's stuff
if you kill them. Right, But again, they haven't been charged.
There's a lot of suspicious shit about this. She also

(01:00:51):
lies to a relatives claiming she couldn't have driven to
Pennsylvania from Vermont because you didn't have a working car,
and we know she did, so.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
You know, yeah, it's it's very suspicious over it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I don't think it's unlikely that she may have been
basically tasked with killing her parents to get access to
her money for the cause, their money for the cause, right,
that's kind of my suspicion, you know. And she was
partly told it was okay because they're abusive and so like,
you maybe have to do this in order to protect

(01:01:25):
yourself and other people from abusers, which is a kind
of logic they have too. On January thirteenth, right after midnight,
Pennsylvania State troopers raid a hotel near the Philadelphia Airport
where Blank and Zashko are staying. A Vermont judge had
issued a warrant for their home, but the police had
not found the gun they believed was the murder weapon.
They touched that weapon when they're in Vermont, but they
don't have a warrant for it, right, so they don't

(01:01:47):
get to take it. Zashko was detained and the only
one and would have been the only one detained if
she hadn't shouted to hotel staff as they're taking her away,
tell Daniel in room one A Leffenheim being arrested, so that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
Damn smooth, smooth.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
These rationalists and they're brilliant crimes oh obviously get interested
in this. And they recognize Daniel's name and they find
on surveillance footage that she has handed a bag to
him outside of his room in the night before, right,
And they recognize his name because they visited Zashkoh and
Blank and the Vermont home. So they get a warrant
for his hotel room and rate it. Like an hour

(01:02:27):
or two later, Blank is found in the bathroom next
to a blonde person dressed in black.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
This is Ziz so.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Oh right, yeah uh. An article by the San Francisco
Chronicle explains what happened next. Blank put his hands behind
his back and walked out of the room, obeying police commands.
But Ziz did not do any of that. He had
his eyes closed. A trooper testified, using masculine pronouns. He
would not speak. He was just laying almost unconscious or
as if he was dead on the ground. He had

(01:02:57):
to be carried out again. This is I don't know
if it's intentional or if Ziz was like acting and
like portraying themselves as masculine because they're on the run.
You know, at this point in time, that's not actually
clear to me. Whatever the case, Ziz is taken into
custody and charged with disorderly conduct and interfering with a
police investigation. A nine millimeter handgun was found in the

(01:03:19):
room along with AMMO. Forty thousand dollars in cash is
found in Zashko Subaru, and again, she doesn't get charged
with murder. They let her out very soon and she
just leaves. The cops are shot because sheet they have
to give her back her car and the forty grand
which she abandons. She and Blake just leave the car

(01:03:39):
and forty thousand dollars in cash. I don't think they're
making good decisions at this point, is my only explanation
for you, David. How Maybe it's that they're thinking, like, well,
they put a tracker in the money, they'll track the car.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
It's not safe to have any of it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
I don't know why they're making this decision, but it's
very weird right.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
During this same time, several other Zisians are at least
suspected to have been coming in and out of like
Pennsylvania during the area around the murder. It is unclear
how many people if they were If the Zizians killed
this husband and wife, it's unclear how many of them
were there. And again no one has been charged. But
it's at this point that another Zizian enters the playing field.

(01:04:25):
This person goes by the name Ophelia. They are a
German citizen. They have like a legal residency in the US.
Their last name is Bachholt. They used to work at
James Street or Jane Street, which is where Sam Bankman
Freed work. They're a quant trader, right, So this is
someone functioning at a high level of the finance industry
who like drops out of their career and life to

(01:04:47):
go to Vermont hours like really like they fly in
like right before the murders.

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
That's such a troubling theme about this whole thing, about
how many of these people really do integrate in a
major Like it's not just like fringe people.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
No, these are people who are successful in their other lives,
but they're lacking. I think a lot of this is
just that desperation that is also core to like fascism's
appeal to feel like a sense of heroism, like I
am part of a heroic struggle. People are very vulnerable
to that. And even if if you're making the money,
if you're succeeding at a tech company or in finance,

(01:05:25):
but it all feels empty to you because it kind
of is if someone's like, you can save the cosmos. Yeah,
here's maybe you'll give up your whole life in order
to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Yeah, So Blanke AND's ashcoh are released in short order,
as I said, they get out of jail quickly, but
Ziz stays in custody for a while, and Baylis said,
I think at fifty thousand initially, are.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
They aware of the fake death and everything it does?

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Yes, they are where she has faked her death. California
shows no interest in sending police app to get her,
which is like it is a crime. This is the
bail is set very high for two misdemeanors, and police
justify it in like the court documents by saying Ziz
had recklessly created a dangerous situation by making the police

(01:06:11):
move her. Per that argument, that article and Wired quote
behind these arguments and even the charges themselves lay a
deeper motive. Unable to charge for the Zasco murders, but
suspecting that Lesoda, Michelle Zashkoh that's Jamie and Danielle Blank
and daniel Blank could be tied to them. Prosecutors were
trying desperately to hold Lesoda while the police gathered evidence. Obviously,
you realize we don't give a shit about this case.

(01:06:32):
One local official familiar with it told me what they
were interested in was Lesoda's involvement in the homicide. So
the authorities here have recognized this is all centered around
this person, but it's very difficult for us to hold
them legally responsible.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
At this stage.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
We can't even arrest anyone for the murder yet we
don't have enough, and you know it's it's I'm not
gonna again pretend to know precisely what happened, but I
think it's pretty clear Ziz probably gave the order to
do this killing or everyone using her logic talk themselves
into well, this is the only way to further our

(01:07:09):
crucially important work. Is we need the money that these
abusers are selfishly keeping to themselves. Jay Or Zizz's bail
is eventually reduced. She winds up in the wind immediately,
like the authorities are like, she's gotta immediately bounce and
will lose her And that's exactly what happens. Zashkoh and Blank.
It's kind of unclear exactly what they do initially after this,

(01:07:32):
but we know Jamie reaches out to her aunt and
begs for help, and her aunt is like, did you
kill my sister? And Jamie says no and blames the
murders on Less Wrong, which is a Liezer's like blog,
so she's blaming the rationalist community. She claims that she's
being targeted and that like Seafar had commit murdered her

(01:07:53):
parents to like basically make Ziz look bad. A year
or so goes by, right, Ziz misses a court date,
she never shows back up. We really don't know what
the fuck these people are doing for most of this period.
In February of twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
Three, she's no longer blogging either.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
She's not no no, no, no no no.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
But she's still said she had stopped. She was just
responding to people.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
Yeah, and she is communicating with people still, but I
think it's primarily through more like direct means. In February
of twenty twenty three, a community alert is posted by
someone named Sepha Shapiro. It warns that quote over the
past few years, Ziz has repeatedly called for the deaths
of many different classes of people, and this this post
lays out a lot of what I've described in these episodes.

(01:08:37):
But there's still no public awareness of the Zizzians. Everything
happening here is so weird. The circumstances around them, around
the murderers are so murky that like most law enforcement
kind of shrugs it off, and there's not like a
public These people are so fringe. It's very difficult to
even talk about.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
Them right now. How do you qualify that on the
nightly news?

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Yes, exactly, Yeah, this is all going to change. In
Jewory of twenty twenty four, Jamie's Ashco purchases three handguns
I think from a Vermont gun store. A few months later,
in May of twenty twenty four, a twenty year old
woman named Teresa Youngblud disappears from her home in Seattle.
Young Blood is one of the scattered community of people

(01:09:16):
who still obsessively followed and interacted with Ziz and her
inner circle's teachings. Her parents feared that she was in
a controlling relationship with someone, and months after disappearing, she
applies for a marriage license with another rationalist who's obsessed
with Ziz, named Maximilian Snyder. Now, like most Zizians, Snyder
has a very impressive academic record. He was a National

(01:09:37):
Merit scholar who attended Oxford University. Then he starts posting
on Less Wrong like all the others. He is initially
a fan of Yadkowski, but at some point he gets
convinced that Ziz's vegan sith radicalism is the true path.
In the summer of twenty twenty three, just months earlier,
he won eleven thousand dollars from an AI alignment contest,
and he won that award under his legal name, but

(01:09:58):
he also goes by Audere. It's kind of unclear to
me what the situation is there. Around the same time,
he tried to raise money for Ziz when she was
briefly behind bars. I don't know if this guy Snyder
this person. If Snyder marries young Blood because they're actually
in love. They had gone to high school together. But
I think there may have been some sort of weird

(01:10:20):
legal reason that Ziz wanted them married again very unclear,
but they don't stay together physically very long. By January
of twenty twenty five, Teresa is in Vermont looking at
rural properties for purchase alongside Ophelia. The German quant trader
right well, Max Snyder is in like California and reading
between some lines. I think because Ophelia and Teresa aren't

(01:10:44):
involved in any of the court cases, Ziz is using
them to help actually scout out and find an isolated
compound where they can hide out right like they are
doing the groundwork of figuring out a place for them
to live. They are acting as the legal individuals who
can kind of handle everything for the folks who are
legally compromised. Later investigation would show that Bachholt and young

(01:11:04):
Blood had been leaving living in Chapel Hill, Vermont, in
a duplex, and neighbors say that several other people also
lived with them. These people were always dressed in black
and owned a box truck. It is unclear, but I
think what happens is after she goes in the run,
Zi starts reaching out to people she'd been in contact
with around the world and says, hey, the time has
now drop out of your lives and come devote yourselves

(01:11:26):
to the cause, right, Okay, And that these these three
are the ones who follow Backholt, young Blood and Snyder right,
because they all cut ties with their families, cut you know,
with their jobs, and leave home around the same time.

Speaker 3 (01:11:39):
While they're looking.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
For rural prop compounds, Backholt and young Blood right wind
up in a hotel in Lyndenville, Vermont. An employee reports
them to the police because they're wearing body armor and
other tactical gear and at least one of them is
openly carrying a pistol. Something is very weird here because
they're approached not just by Virginia State Police, but by
a Homeland Security Investigations officer. And there's evidence that Homeland

(01:12:01):
Security spends like a week, is surveilling them for like
a week before the shootout that happens. I don't know
what Homeland Security thought was happening. They may have just
seen we're on the border. Obviously shit's escalated there. This
isn't a foreign citizen with an American citizen. They're wrapping
their electronics in tenfoil, they've got guns, they're driving around

(01:12:22):
being very suspicious and tactical gear maybe they just thought
it was like some run of the mill terrorism bullshit.

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
It's worth checking out.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Right, So they are surveilling these people, and I think
young Blood and Bachholt realize they're being surveilled, right, and
that starts that escalatory loop in their head of zizi
and logic, where well, if the police confront me, there's
only one way to respond.

Speaker 3 (01:12:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Two days later, prosecutors in California ask the judge and
the Curtis Lind case to speed up the process of
going to trial. He's in his eighties, he's got a
bad memory, and he's the only witness of the attacks.
They say, it's necessary, we need to do this quickly.
So the next day, January seventeenth, before this can happen,
before Lynd can go to trial, a masked assailant assaults
Lynd near his property and slits his throat, killing him.

(01:13:11):
Maximilian Snyder, young Blood's husband, will be arrested days later
in Reading, California for the murder.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
Fuck because they had been separate. Oh right, man, So
there's like there's a possibility that says it's said.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
Yeah, I don't see what now he did not he
hasn't pled yet, at least as the time we record this.
But he sent the letter in jail to Alisa Hitkowski
trying to make him become a vegan.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
He also priority is in order. Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
He also claimed quote, I am not one of Zizz's friends.
Neither she nor her friends endorse me or my words,
so far as I know, I speak only for myself
as myself for the sake of everyone. Sure, yeah, okay,
hey man, you just decided to kill this guy for
no reason.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
Who happened to happen to have a relationship with this
very small group of people.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
You wis this person? He has filed for a marriage
license with young Blood. The day after Lynde gets assassinated,
young Blood and Bockolt are heading back from a trip
out target shooting when they get pulled over by Border patrol.
Young Blood almost immediately draws her side arm. There's a shootout.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):
She killed or I think she kills.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
Now, anytime there's a shootout and an officer dies, a
decent amount of the time that officer is like killed
by another cops bullet. I don't actually know for sure
if it was young Blo or if they all start
shooting and he just gets killed. In the crossfire. I
don't fully know whose gun kills him, but she definitely
starts shooting right right, and Border Patrol agent David Mallin

(01:14:55):
dies Bocholt is killed in the immediate shootout before she
can draw away. And both of the firearms used in
this shooting were guns purchased by Zadji by Jamie in
early twenty twenty four.

Speaker 3 (01:15:07):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
So again, all of these things are it's very easy
to connect them if you like know all these people,
it takes so long to trace out.

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
For all their talk of murder, the in practice, they're
not very good at it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
Huh, No, I guess they. I mean, they didn't plan
for this shooting to happen, right, It's just that their
kind of escalatory logic made it inevitable. After all this,
authorities finally start putting the whole story together. A man
hunt is law launched in on February sixteenth of twenty
twenty five. Ziz, Jamie, and Daniel Blank are finally caught.
After the shootout, they seem to have started living in

(01:15:39):
box trucks again, one of which was registered to young Blood.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
Yeah, back to.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
What you know, and again one of these is young Blood,
like the box truck is registered in to her name.
They pulled onto a property in Frostburg to camp, and
the owner like spotted them and said, hey, get off
my land, and like, Ziz tries to talk this person
into letting them stay for a month, but he's like, no,
I'm I'm gonna call the cops in a row m

(01:16:04):
you look like a wizard. You don't need any of this. Ultimately,
they all get arrested and charged with everything the cops
could throw at them, which is like a legal possession,
carrying a firearm, stuff like that. Right inside the other
box trucks, state troopers found Jamie and Zizz, according to
the charging documents, dressed all in black and wearing gun
belts with ammunition. So yeah, and that's the situation where

(01:16:30):
we are. Now, that's not the story's done. No, yeah,
so this is basically where we are. Ziz asked for
pre trial release, didn't get it. Not shocked about that

(01:16:50):
quote speaking and this is from a Seattle PI article,
speaking haltingly. She also requested a vegan diet and said
that she was in a mild state of delirium due
to lack of food. I have not done anything wrong,
she told her, Judes, I might starve to death if
you do not intervene. I need the jail to be
ordered to have a vegan diet. It's more important than
whatever this hearing is. So I don't think this whole
court process is going to end super well for his No.

(01:17:13):
But I also it's very hard to tell, like what
do you what are you going to charge that? Like,
I don't like I'm legitimately like very uh uh, Like
I I'll be fascinated to see what the charges are here.

Speaker 3 (01:17:27):
Yeah, it's excited to know that this we can see
this play out real time.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
I yeah, this was weird.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
Yeah, hell yeah I was great anyway, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
I would like to know how things fucking shake up.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Yeah, well maybe we'll revisit this when my brain has healed.
I need to go like read about Hitler some to
calm down.

Speaker 3 (01:17:55):
Yeah, you need to go talk to your neighbor. Yeah,
I need to go talk to my name.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
It's a better suggestion.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
Yeah, not just keep reading my Hitler books and coming
up with theories. That's how you get That's how you
get double bad exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
That's how it happens.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
You gotta go on a run, go talk to your day,
brickle petigoat you know.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
Everyone else, Go go talk to somebody, you know, pet
an animal, walk you know, in the woods or something.

Speaker 3 (01:18:25):
Maybe stay away from boats for a while, just to
stay the fuck away from boats. Don't go live on
a boat. Don't go live on a boat. Stay out
of the water. I don't care about it. Rent to
stand on the fucking water. Oh fuck wow. At the

(01:18:47):
end of this, David, David, how you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
This is your first experience on our show What's Up?

Speaker 3 (01:18:52):
I honestly don't know to tell you that. I don't
know how I feel. I'm gonna have to I really
gonna have to kick this around for a couple of
day is But this is interesting. Yeah, interesting as hell.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
Yeah, that's one way to describe it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:08):
That's one way to describe it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
This is a wild time. David, you have any Do
you have anything you want to plug for lot?

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
Yeah. I produced my own comedy special. It's available on
my Patreon, Patreon dot com backslash David Bori gb O
r I E. It's called Birth of a Nation spelled
with a G because that's my last name and I
think it's funny. But yeah, I have a podcast, my
Mama told me I also have one called All Fantasy Everything,

(01:19:39):
where we draft fantasy things that aren't sports. But yeah,
check that stuff out.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
Yes, ship, that sounds really cool.

Speaker 3 (01:19:48):
It's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
That sounds so much better for you than everything we've
talked about.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
It.

Speaker 3 (01:19:51):
It's different than this. It's different than this, and.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
It reminded me I need I need to set my
fantasy basketball line up. So thank you sir all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
It's time check it out, everybody. Uh, all right, that's uh,
that's been the podcast. Don't don't do any of this,
don't do any of the things in this in this episode,
please bye bye.

Speaker 1 (01:20:17):
Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool
Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:20:29):
Behind the Bastards is now.

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
Available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe
to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind the
Bastards