Part Two: Bill Cooper: The Man Who Killed Truth

Robert is joined again by Jamie Loftus to continue discussing Bill Cooper.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the show where we talk
about the worst people in all of history, and every
now and then, Jamie, we change ourselves for the better. Wow,
we learned something. I got a big file cabinet in
the background. I've been learning a lot of things. Yeah,
keep just lie about a file cabinet for decades, just like, really,

(00:25):
milk the most out of you could possibly can out
of the fact that you worked for a guy with
a file cabinet back in the sixties. Imagine if everyone
had that foresight to be like, no, no, no no, you
didn't understand. I used to work at a comptroller's office,
and I feel like a real missed opportunity. Yeah, it's
not too late. I hate that word, by the way, comptroller,

(00:45):
because it's supposed to be pronounced controller, not the way
the Massachusetts controller pronounced it. But funny. Yeah, I mean
we've been talking about Boston a lot, and that's just
one more reason they're bad. Um anyway, outside of boss parties. Yeah, Jamie,
welcome back to the story of Bill Billiam Cooper. Are

(01:07):
you are you ready to can? I see you've got
your beanie baby. Um, I just got my e Babyanie
baby in the mail. I'm so excited. And that's a
death themed beanie baby, is it not? It's well, that's no,
that's this one. This is the the end. Yeah, you
do have a death themed beanie baby. Yeah yeah, that
theme is the death of beanie babies. Um yeah, I
got a you know mint condition the mail. And before

(01:29):
anyone bothers me about it, that they're like because there's
like this myth that beanie babies are expensive, They're not.
I got these two for eight dollars together. So I'm good.
I have a I have a I have an animal familiar,
and I'm ready to go. Alrighty, well, let's some do

(01:51):
some ships, all right. On July four, nineteen eighty nine,
Bill Cooper commit did marriage for the very last time.
Uh yeah. Yeah. This wife would be his most successful
adult relationship, and depending on who you believe, their relationship

(02:11):
may be evidence that he did grow as a person. Um,
although that may not be true either. Yeah. She was
a twenty year old Taiwanies a woman named Annie Mordhost.
Bill was forties six years old at the time. Um yeah.
In the grand tradition of all wonderful love stories, Annie
and Bill were married in a Las Vegas Boulevard wedding chapel,

(02:31):
and we know very little about their courtship. Bill would
claim that Annie was the daughter of a nationalist Chinese
official who had fled the country when Mao and his
Communists won the Civil War. Uh, but you know, who
knows what the funk happened really about her life? Annie
came into perhaps like everything Bill says. Yeah. Um, Annie
came into Bill's life just as his career and conspiracies

(02:53):
was really starting to take off. She defended her new
husband fiercely. At one point during a lecture at the
Showboat Hotel and Casino, fight broke out between two uf
O nerds, and he stepped in front of her husband
with a hand on the hilt of an enormous kitchen
knife she always kept in her purse. Um. Okay, actually
they maybe found each other. Yeah, she was kind of
right or die for a while there. Yeah, definitely seems

(03:13):
to have been willing to stab a man for for
this guy. Yeah. Bill had relatively few real innovations he
could claim to have brought to the world of ufology.
Most of what made him unique was his ability to
carve off chunks of other people's work and weave them
into explicitly political theories that tied directly into the contemporary world.
And this is what builded best. Yeah, but also like

(03:36):
making UFOs political, like tying tying alien not just alien
conspiracies exists, but like tying them into things that are
fucked up in the modern world. Um. His work was
unique in the notoriously scatter brained and chaotic world of
uf O nerds. Uh Norio Hayakawa, one of the most
famous ufologists in this period, ran into build during a

(03:57):
UFO convention in West Hollywood. Vote. A lot of UFO
meetings can be dull, but on this night they had
Bill Cooper. I hadn't heard of him. He looked like
a normal middle aged guy, huge but paunchy, with receding hair.
He could have been anybody. He made a couple of
remarks and then read his secret government paper. He didn't
look up, just read for an hour and a half.
But what he was saying, the authority with which he
said it was very interesting. Most of upology avoids politics,

(04:21):
but with Bill Cooper everything was political. He was the
first person to really take the UFO phenomena and extended
out as a way to talk about global politics, history, religion,
and society. It sounded so fresh to me, so intriguing.
The most important thing I thought was to get Bill
bigger and better vinues so more people could hear what
he had to say. Again, it's like he's using that
military cloud and that military delivery tot. If you've ever

(04:47):
watched if you've ever spent hours watching UM lectures from
different UFO conventions in the nineteen nineties, and yeah, most
of them aren't great at talking. Uh. A lot of
people who never should have been in front of a
crowd to crowd public. Yeah, okay, Yeah, Bill does have

(05:12):
right like he presents himself in a way that people
take him more seriously than they do most people in
this world. Um. So, this Hayakawa guy was responsible for
booking Bill one of his first big speaking gigs at
Hollywood High Um. And after this Bill went through a
brief spell as one of UFOlogy's leading luminaries. He probably,
like in the world of UFOs, is like having a

(05:33):
talk at a high school a big deal. This one
was because it's a big high school. That's true, that's
Hollywood High School for crying child start exactly, UM, pat
them in basketball all the time in high school. Yeah,
you know what I didn't do just there, Sophie selfish.

(05:55):
I didn't selfishly plug yourself. No, I didn't make a
joke about the horrible pedophile ring that has existed in
Hollywood for decades. Um, you did bring it up right now, though,
I did bring it up right now. So we want
to throw in a show where it is like really
difficult to lower the mood further. We really did just

(06:15):
find a way to do it. Yeah, and that's evidence
that growth only goes so far, right. You know, we
we we can, we can make some movements towards progress,
but we always remain the people that we we were born. Um, anyway,
shout out to which one of the Corries is the
one who's been talking about Oh wait no, the Cory

(06:35):
is the one that killed him. Um, I'm just going
to multiple corries. Yeah, this this, this shouldn't have happened.
I'm solving my beanie baby in a vice script. Yeah,
so Bill Bill becomes kind of like a big name
on the UFO circuit in like nineteen nine, uh, nineteen ninety,
and his speaking skills improved, and you know, during this

(06:56):
period he drew the attention of a pair of Hollywood managers,
Douglas Kane and Michael Callen. So, like, these guys are
going to record in license Bill's lectures, and there's kind
of talk about, like, oh, Bill might become kind of
like a major a major media figure, like something like
Alex Jones kind of Winda was briefly, um if you
remember what Alex Jones was in movies and stuff. Um,

(07:18):
So there there's talk about this happening. But Bill kind
of immediately gets into a giant fight with these guys
and proved himself very difficult to work with. And the
fight this, the dispute arises over the rights to the
master recordings of some of his lectures. Um. And rather
than like deal with this the way that an adult
in a professional context would, Bill calls Michael up drunk,

(07:38):
um just just absolutely hammered and threatens to murder both men.
Um uh, he tells them, quote, I'd suggest you be
real careful, don't write no bucking broncos, don't do nothing
you haven't done before, because I guarantee you no one
is going to hurt me and get away with it.
Take care, Mike, love you, and we're gonna make sure
you amount to something, even if it's a pile of dogshit.

(08:01):
We miss you, we really do. And the next time
we see you, we're going to get you a real
good present. Like god, yeah, it sounds like he's on
an eight chan board. Yeah. And the next morning Diana
wa wakes up to find out that his tires have
been slashed. And since Bill lived nearby, like, it's kind
of not a grid not a mystery, No, Bill, I

(08:22):
mean not not a subtle man, not a subtleman. So
um yeah. Dean reported Cooper to the sheriff, and Bill
later wrote that this was all part of a scheme
to disrupt his work and stop him from educating the
American people. Um. Yeah, and that's you know, kind of
what Bill. Bill is big into the UFO scene until

(08:45):
like the early nineties, really ninete is when he starts
to undergo a change of heart around the whole issue
of UFOs and extraterrestrials. Um, so, what that makes it
like less than ten years that he's heavy into that.
Oh wait, it's only it's only really a couple of
years that he's so it's just really a passing interest
for him. Yeah, he's always partly in it. So basically,

(09:06):
he claims that he starts to become like convinced in
the early nineteen nineties that like, rather than uh UFOs
being like the hoax being around the government trying to
cover up UFOs, the existence of UFOs is itself a hoax.
He calls it the greatest hoax in history, and it's
being perpetrated by the government to give people something to
focus on while they ignore the real conspiracies that are

(09:27):
going on. Um, which there's actually some evidence that stuff
like that was going on that like the CIA and
ship we're um, we're kind of pushing conspiracy theorists to
discredit in general, like anti government sentiments and stuff anyway. Um.
But Bill becomes convinced that like there's this grand conspiracy
and and pushing fake UFO beliefs to sort of confuse

(09:51):
and discredit people who are going to speak out against
the new World Order. Um, it's like that's that's really
what's going on. Um. And the root of his new
theory came from a nineteen seventeen speech given by John Dewey,
the famous educator and psychologist the Dewey Decimal System. Guy.
Bill became convinced that the Dewey decimal system guy is
kind of at the heart of the coming New World Order.

(10:12):
Um So, in this nineteen seventeen speech, Dewey had made
the historic error of idly speculating that an alien invasion
might be the only thing that could force humanity to
unite and like save itself from you know, wiping itself
out in horrible war. And since this was coming at
the end of World War One, you get where Dewey's
coming from. Like, it's a pretty hopeless time to be

(10:33):
a human being. He's like, uh, if only aliens would
invade and we could all unite against something that like
wasn't murdering each other. Um But Bill Cooper was convinced
that Dewey's words weren't just like the idol and somewhat
desperate hope of an intelligent man staring out at the
devastation of war and hoping for a way to prevent
more death. Instead, he became convinced that those words were

(10:54):
a flagrantly clear signal of the secret plans of the
New World Order. Oh see, I guess that that's where
we we divert in our in our thought. Yeah, yeah,
and it is kind of like I think Dewey you
could probably argues kind of like the root of where
like that whole theory, that whole part of The Watchman
comes from. Like I think Dewey's kind of the first
guy to really be like, it'd be nice if aliens came,

(11:16):
Like maybe we'd stop murdering each other for a single second.
Is it is so? For it is so like you
can understand where it comes from and where the desire
to want it to you know, deflect the blame on
what's going wrong in the world and in the country
onto literally anything except the people that are already there

(11:37):
and running it. Yeah. Yeah, so Bill gets you know,
increasingly starting in like really into the New World Order
conspiracy theory. And the New World Order conspiracy theory was
like you'd call it a super theory. It was really
more of a whole conspiracist mindset rather than like a
discreet conspiracy theory. So we're well outside of like the

(11:58):
realm of you know, JFK was murdered by the c
I A. Right, that's a simple conspiracy theory. You can
explain it to every anyone who's curious in a sect. Yeah,
the New World Order conspiracy theory is a mindset, and
every new thing that happens in the world, you like
a believer is going to kind of filter like file
in somewhere in that conspiracy theory. It kind of takes

(12:18):
it's one of it. Yeah, and you could see the
n w O as kind of an evolution of Majestic twelve.
You know, Majestic twelve starting in like the late eighties.
Is this theory about this, you know, secret government that
gets set up after Roswell and the New World Orders
just kind of really an evolution of this, and it
it comes at the end of the Cold War for

(12:39):
a good reason. Michael Barkun writes that the theory came
to quote constitute a common ground for religious and secular
conspiracy theorists, um, because you could tie in these kind
of apocalyptic Christian millenarian conspiracy theories, but you could also
tie in like completely a religious conspiracy theories, like you know,
the jfk assassination, like it all fit underneath the New

(13:01):
World Order, just kind of depending on your own personal
beliefs um. And Bill Cooper was kind of the guy
who very first plugs Majestic twelve and Roswell Alien nonsense
into the n w oh UM And depending on the
point in his career, he either did it to claim
that like the New World Order um existed to kind
of hide the existence of aliens from people, and then

(13:22):
later that like, oh, the n w oh is is
his pushing fake UFO conspiracy theories to distract people whatever.
Like he takes both tax over the course of his
career um very like large umbrella of conspiracies to yeah,
it's all about bringing people together. Really, well, that's the
thing Bill and all these other Bill is one of
these guys who's just talking constantly for like fifteen years,

(13:44):
and everything he says is adding something to the conspiracy theories.
So if you actually really try to like to map
out everything Bill believes and pushes in his life, like
we would be here for days. Um, we're going to
gloss over too much of this stuff to be honest,
Like he invent to He not invented, but he's the
reason people know about the FEMA death camp conspiracy theory.

(14:05):
Like he's the origin point for that one. Yeah, we're
not even really going to talk about it because it's
just one of a billion different things. He's the origin
point for Yeah, he's the first guy to published that. Yeah,
so fucking Bill Cooper. Um. Yeah, the n w O
really took off after nineteen ninety and Bill was its
most influential profit. His pivot away from aliens didn't isolate

(14:25):
him from his fans. Instead, it opened up a whole
new segment of the population to conspiratorial beliefs. Vast swaths
of the country who would never have been caught dead
at a UFO convention start, but it started to feel
like something was wrong with the way the country was going.
Like these kind of people would listen to Bill Cooper.
They never would have shown up to a mouf On convention,
but they listen to this stuff because it rang true

(14:46):
to them, because they were looking for an explanation as
to why things were wrong. Um that didn't involve like
reading left wing political theory. Well that's just a waste
of time, as we both know. Yeah, the left wing
guys get into this too, Like this is really That's
one of the things that's interesting about the New World
Order conspiracy theory is that it's very influential in a

(15:07):
number of sides. Um and Michael Barkin writes, quote, New
World Order theories seem to provide a graceful way of
exiting the domain of international relations and refocusing upon domestic politics.
This is in the wake of the Cold War ending.
Although the forces of the New World Order are international,
they are assumed to be concentrating on domestic agendas, particularly
the alleged destruction of American liberties. So Bill was savvy

(15:30):
enough to see that, like, as you know, part of
what's happening here. Why the New World Order conspiracy theory
gets so popular is that there's a lot of people
like Bill who are will permanently be anxious for the
rest of their lives because of the Cold War. We
call these people baby boomers, and they cause a lot
of problems. Um, and when the Cold War ends, a
lot of these guys needed something else to justify the

(15:53):
fact that they were always paranoid because they've grown up
under the shade of constant imminent nuclear annihilation and the
New World or they're troubled. Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is
are having a tough time. And this is what Bill
taps into is the fact that all of these guys
know that everything, like I can't not expect the end

(16:13):
to come at any moment. And once the Soviet Union ends.
They can't just lose that anxiety, right like they and
and then they need an explanation for like, why don't
I feel better now that the Soviets are gone? Could
it be that up? Most of the problems that people
were blaming on the Soviets were actually just like the
fact that my own culture is fucked up and we
need to deal with No, no, no, there's a different conspiracy.

(16:34):
It's not the communist conspiracy. It's another one. Yeah. So
Bill was savvy enough to see that he was watching
the birth of a new movement in American culture, and
he knew that movement was going to need a bible,
and so in nineteen ninety he sat down to write
One Behold a Pale Horse, would be published in nineteen
one through bizarre little new age occult press called Light

(16:55):
Technology Publishing. The book itself was four hundred and thirty
four pages of documents and memos, all purported to be
top secret missives from inside the secret Government working to
bring about the new World Order. The centerpiece of it all,
the primary document upon which Bill hung his ideology, was
called Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars, which is another great title.

(17:17):
Say both of these kicked the ship out of the
title of Bible. Yeah, fuck the Bible, I mean behold
of pale horses from the Bible kind of but yeah,
so uh yeah. Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars Bill claimed
it was an introductory programming model for new employees of

(17:39):
Operations Research, a secret military intelligence organization tasked with preparing
the country for authoritarian rule. And the document opens with
welcome aboard and informs its reader that they are will
be taking part in the Third World War, which has
been going on for decades and involves the use of
silent weapons on an unsuspecting public. I'm gonna quote now
from pale horse writer written at the level of an

(18:01):
undergrad paper and electrical engineering. Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars
defines a silent weapon as differing from a conventional weapon
in that it shoots situations instead of bullets, originating from
bits of data instead of grains of gunpowder, and attacks
under the orders of a banking magnate instead of a
military general. Because the silent weapon causes no obvious physical

(18:22):
or mental injuries and does not obviously interfere with anyone's
daily social life, the public cannot comprehend this weapon and
therefore cannot believe that they are being attacked and subdued.
The public might instinctively feel that something is wrong, but
because of the technical nature of the silent weapon, they
cannot express their feeling in a rational way. They do
not know how to cry for help, and do not

(18:43):
know how to associate with others to defend themselves against it. Huh, yeah,
you can see why this, um, this is attractive to
some people. Yeah, yeah, and it's I mean, now, it
sounds vaguely familiar, but if I had heard this at
the time, would have been like, yeah. Interesting. For a

(19:04):
very long time, almost everyone assumed that silent weapons had
been created the creation of Bill Cooper himself. He opened
the very first episode of his radio series, The Hour
of the Time by reading from this, and his favorite
line to repeat was a lightened from the papers stating
that uninformed Americans were beasts of burden and steaks on
the table by choice and consent. Um. He would say

(19:25):
it in nearly every episode. Okay, so he's got he's
got that branding. The reality, though, is that Bill was
something of a middleman for bringing silent weapons into mass awareness.
The whole paper had actually been cooked up by Hartford
Van Dyke, a convicted counterfeitter who would essentially cobbled the
thing together himself from bits written by other paranoid libertarian thinkers.

(19:46):
Um M, paranoid libertarian thinkers are, Yeah, it's it's it's
it's interesting. So Bill, you know, silent weapons for quiet
Wars is kind of like that that line, and in
particular is kind of why Bill adopts the phrase, you know,
wake up sheeple um, because like that he was he

(20:07):
was referring to a specific thing. Is that like these
New World Order people in their own documents, because Bill
believes this thing is real. Um, like think that you're
your beasts of burden, like they that's how they treat you,
and like that's what you are if you're not willing
to like wake up and realize that you're being played.
Bill was very abusive to his audience, so he would
regularly like insult and attack the people listening to him

(20:28):
for not sure. It's like if his if his whole
thing is if you're not participating in what I'm saying,
you're a fucking idiot and you're and you're going to
be hurt. Like that's a that's a place to start. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Um. So,
through his book Behold of Pale Behold of Pale Horse,
Bill injected a lot of a whole host of now

(20:51):
common conspiracy theories into the mainstream, not just his theory
about JFK, but postulations that AIDS was one of many
secret weapons designed by the US government for use against
its own people, actually to wipe out black people in Africa.
Um and this, yeah, we'll talk more about that in
a little bit. As it turns out, very little in
behalor Behold a Pale Horse was original. Bill had just

(21:12):
taken a variety of different pamphlets and like hoax papers
that had been circulating, you know, over the conspiracy community,
and bound them together in a handsome volume with really
good cover art. You you should look up the cop
book right now to see the cover art. Like it's
it's good. Behold the Pale Horse, Yeah cover okay, okay,

(21:32):
So all this stuff has been like circulating in sort
of conspiracy nut communities, but you'd get it as like
you know, somebody handling up Yes, yeah, yeah, it's pretty,
and it's it's it's it's well organized, and you know,
this stuff had been existed for a while, but if
you if you came across it, it would be like
you'd run into someone's poorly mimiographed copies of Silent Weapons

(21:55):
for Quiet Wars and a gun show or something next
to it, like Nazi flags. And Bill puts them in
this really like good cover art, like well bound, like
actual book. And this is again still a period of
time in which books means something to people. Um. So
this ship takes off, and it's a problem that this
ship takes off because everything in Bill's book isn't like

(22:18):
Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars. Obviously it's nonsense. Um, but
it's hard to It's not the most problematic thing in
the world. It's just it's just a fake military document. Um.
Bill doesn't just include stuff like that, among other things,
Behold the Pale Horse includes the entirety of the Protocols
of the Elders of Zion. Um. Yeah, okay, I want

(22:46):
to say that that escalated, but it really is just
an ex logical step, and it's really funny. The way
he does it is kind of objectively hilarious. So if
you aren't aware, the protocols are probably the most influential
conspiracy theory of all time. They purport to be like
silent weapons, kind of like a secret document from this
organization that got leaked out. And in the case of

(23:06):
the protocols, it's this meeting of a group of Jewish
elders plotting the overthrow in domination of the gentile world. Now,
the reality is that the protocols were a forgery cooked
up by the Anon Czarist, Russia's equivalent of the c
I a UM. The protocols like that they were, they
were basically this Russian intelligence agencies like disinformation plot Um

(23:27):
and UH. They were incredibly successfully took on a life
of their own, spread all throughout Western Europe UM and
obviously like helped to spread this kind of specific type
of anti Semitic conspiracy theory all across Europe, and most
of the Nazis actually knew it was a fake um
and they thought it was a pretty clumsy fake at that,
but they benefited from the conspiratorial melieu that the protocols

(23:49):
helped to create in Europe, which like definitely helped to
enable the Holocaust. So the Protocols of the Elders of
Ziland have Zion maybe have the highest body count of
any conspiracy theory in history and after World War Two,
you know, for obvious reasons, the protocol is kind of languished.
People didn't weren't so interested in anti Semitic conspiracy theories

(24:09):
for a little while. Um yeah, some bad pr for that. Yeah,
bad pr for anti semitism. Um. So they would only
really surface when some Yeah yeah, they would pop up
every now and then, but it was only really like
neo Nazis who were willing to republish them. Um. And
they never got any kind of white distribution. George Lincoln

(24:30):
Rockwell was probably like the most prominent guy to try
to republish the protocols. And yeah, yeah, yeah, so nobody.
You're right, I didn't even Jamie. Yeah, Jamie's onto something
in their name where the evil lies. Yeah, and you
know where the evil doesn't lie, Robert and the products
and services that support this podcast. Sometimes I'm proud of myself.

(24:51):
And yes, yeah, that part all right, we're back. So
the Protocols of the Elders of zion Um kind of
languish and obscurity for decades after World War Two. Um yeah,

(25:11):
nobody really spreads them. They're not popular in the United States,
They're not particularly well known in the United States, and
then in nineteen Bill Cooper republishes them in their entirety
in his book Um And to make it funnier Bill
Bill was not an avowed anti Semite. Bill definitely believed
a lot of anti Semitic things, but like it wasn't

(25:33):
a motivating factor for him. He didn't believe the protocols
were evidence of a Jewish conspiracy. He thought they were
the real minutes of an of the Illuminati, basically of
the New World Orders conspiracy theory um. And they've been
blamed on Jews to throw the world off of their
scent Um. So he really it's even worse to be like,
I'm just gonna throw it in because it seems like

(25:54):
something that people no, No, he thinks it's true, but
it's it's not the Jews, it's the New World Order
and the Jews. The New World Order blamed it on
the Jews to hide the reality of what was happening.
So Bill, before he publishes the entirety of the Protocols
of the Elders of Zion, he runs this note, and
this is the only note he runs with the Protocols

(26:15):
of the Elders of Zion. Every aspect of this plan
to subjugate the world has since become reality, validating the
authenticity of conspiracy. This has been written intentionally to deceive people.
For clear understanding, the word Zion should be psion. Any
references to Jews should be replaced with the word Illuminati,
and the word goum should be replaced with the word cattle.
So he's like, replace Jews with Illuminati. But this book

(26:38):
of this, like this anti Semitic conspiracy document is good
stuff otherwise, right there, Like otherwise it's basically right. But
just take out yeah, just take out the Jews. And
I'm not going to take out the Jews myself. You've
got to do it in your own head. So yeah,
he's not willing to do any sort of leg where
he makes it sound like a simple clerical error that

(26:58):
was made and unfortunate really for the whole world. Behold
a Pale Horse went on to become the single most
influential underground publishing hit in history. It's sold well over
three hundred thousand copies as of this the publication of
this episode, but that number vastly understates its influence because
Behold a Pale Horse was and remains one of the

(27:18):
most frequently stolen books in the country and in incarcerated
people across the nation. UM also started passing it along,
so there will be copies of this still are in
prisons all over the country that just get like handed
to people when they come into prison. Um. Yeah, and
it's it's it's. It spreads through two different chunks of
the underground community, the kind of right wing militia community

(27:39):
where you'd expect it, but it also becomes incredibly influential
among the burgeoning hip hop community of the early nineteen nineties.
This unpacked for me. Yeah, I don't yeah, we will,
don't worry. Yeah, So Behold a Pale Horse resurrected the
protocols of the Elders of Zion UM and it kind
of laundered them through a lens of general distrust with

(28:00):
the state of the world, and as a result, Bill
Cooper was able to ensure that this once obscure tract
spread by like wildfire among segments of the American population
it had never reached before, primarily inner city black Americans
like obviously the kind of people handing out the protocols
the Elders of Zion and the thirties weren't given them
to black people. But now this book starts spreading among

(28:21):
like a lot of people who are like a lot
of black men in the inner cities who have this again,
this this thing that is at the core of Bill
Cooper's work. They know ship's fucked up, right, um and
Bill Cooper given, here's a whole book on how everything's
fucked up, and it happens to include the protocols of
the Elders of Zion Um and yeah. Uh So as

(28:42):
this this kind of brings us to, yeah, the thing
I've been teasing for a while, which is that Bill
Cooper is one of the most influential white men in
the history of rap um and Yeah. Biographer Mark Jacobson explains, quote,
in nineteen ninety one to five thousand and seventy seven
people were murdered in New York, by far the highest
two year total in city history. It was the crack play,
and a new generation arose to speak truth to the

(29:03):
ongoing trauma of urban life. Many of the rappers who
emerged during the early nineteen nineties, the Great Wu Tang's
the Formidable Nas of the Queensbridge Houses were deeply influenced
by the five Percenters a k a. The Nation of
Gods and Earth's. The movement had been founded in the
late nineteen sixties by Clarence Edwards Smith a k A.
Clarence thirteen X, and eventually Father Allah kicked out of
Elijah Muhammad's Nation of Islam forget heresy and gambling. Father

(29:25):
Allah had said that it was necessary for black men
and women to become lyrical assassins. The tongue was the sword,
Father Allah said, and when properly sharpened, it could take
more heads with the word than any army with machine
guns could never do. And for many lyrical assassins, Bill
Cooper's Behold a Pale Horse became a key text. Rappers
who have mentioned Cooper in his book or his book
include the Wu Tang Clan, Big Daddy, Kane, Busta Rhymes, Tupac, Shakur,

(29:50):
Talib Quelli, nas Rakim, Poor, Righteous Teachers, Gang Star Goody Mob,
suicide Boys, Boogie Monsters, Wise Intelligent, public Enemy, Miss math Aslan,
Lord Allah, ras Cass, and the Lost Children of Babylon,
who told their listeners to prepare to meet your fate
like William Cooper when the stormtroopers breach your Gate a

(30:10):
little bit of foreshadowing there. Um, old, yeah, that's like, yeahbuddy, yeah,
that's everybody. He's here the fucking One of the first
albums that the Wu Tang Clan like produces is called
Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars. Yeah, God is like the
side thing. It's it's nas, it's nas. I'm sorry, clearly

(30:34):
I'm not on Mark Jacobson, Bill's biographer, actually talks to
a lot of these guys and like, is really knowledgeable
about hip hop? I am not, and I apologize. Um,
that is like old dirty bastard of the Wu Tang
Clan explained, behold a pale horses appeal better than anyone else.
Everybody gets fucked. William Cooper tells you who's who's fucking you.

(30:56):
And unfortunately, one of the things he tells these people
is it's the juice, Like you just have to like
he said, yeah, yeah, that's an unfortunate aspect of his influence.
So you can see why black guys in particular, living
through inner city crime waves and like police, you know,
crackdowns and violence and stuff, would find documents like Silent
Weapons for Quiet Wars compelling Bill's framework of conspiracies fit

(31:19):
in with things that many black folks already believed, like
that the CIA had introduced crack to the inner cities,
and there's obviously there's actually a decent amount of truth
to that. Um In an interview before his own death,
Prodigy told Mark Jacobson, William Cooper wrote, what everyone kind
of new, and that's like a big part of his
influences that he's He's giving people this really cohesive, um

(31:40):
bound guide to all of the different things, all of
the like, hey, your life is fucked, Like here's what Like,
here's you can pick and choose which conspiracy theories you believe,
explain why, and just by like putting together it sounds
like the greatest hits, uh conspiracy theories of like hey,
if this one doesn't work for you, go to the
next chapter. Maybe this one will work for you. Yeah, okay, okay, yeah,

(32:05):
And he introduced his new followers to a whole world
of other conspiracy theories, not just the protocols of the
Elders of Zion, but some of Bill's more modern paranoia,
like the idea that AIDS had been created in a
test to by the US government to wipe out Africans.
This theory spread like wildfire and even reached Manteo Sha
la la simoon. Um, I'm gonna pronounce that wrong. I'm
terribly sorry. South Africa's health minister, the New Republic Rights

(32:28):
that he quote, while still in office and at the
height of that country's AIDS crisis, distributed copies of the
chapter that argue that AIDS was introduced into the African
population by a global conspiracy with the goal of reducing
the continents population. Bill Cooper is very influential because well
it's as is always the case with this ship. We

(32:50):
can talk. We'll talk about the crack epidemic at some
point and how they're the real conspiracy there differs somewhat
from the ones that most people believes. But like the
basic idea of it is true, which is that um,
in large part due to the c I a crack
got to the United States and huge amounts like that,
they played a major role in getting here. It's just
a different role than a lot of people think. Um. Likewise,

(33:12):
the AIDS crisis gets so bad worldwide in large part
due to the US government's complete refusal to give a
shit about it. Um. Yeah, it's just not the reason.
But like something is fucked up there, and people want
like if you provide people with the convention like a
compelling theory that ties together what is really just inexplicable

(33:33):
hatred and and like a lack of fox given about
huge chunks of the population. Um, yeah, I mean it's
it's it's I'm not saying it's rational in any way,
but but for you know, people who already perhaps have
some held prejudices, who are looking for an explanation to
something that is like the commonly held truth of like, uh,

(33:55):
there are things going on in the government that we
have made not made aware of, very intention annoyed. But
then it's just like, well, what's a what's a funked
up reason I could make up for why that may be? Yeah? Yeah,
So Behold a Pale Horse would probably see its most
lingering impact on the hip hop scene. Um, there's still
actually a modestly popular artist named William Cooper who goes

(34:16):
by that name today. Um. But Bill's personal popularity as
a showman would only grow narrower in the years following
his books publication. The Hour of the Time, his radio
show earned a sizeable audience for what it was propaganda
for the nation's growing militia movement, and The Hour of
the Time did not, although now it is. It is
a little more. You can find in like a lot
of fringe SoundCloud rappers and stuff. They'll they'll cut in

(34:40):
bits of The Hour of the Times, but um, a
good fringe SoundCloud. I want to play you just a
segment from one episode. This is the introduction, and this
is how every single episode of The Hour of the
Time started. Just you have an idea of kind of
how Bill show like the emotional tenor it takes right
from the beginning. Okay, this does sound like sand clock,

(35:08):
rab and chess. It's so long. Yeah, it's really long.

(35:34):
Oh I think I saw I heard Santa Claus. I
don't like it. Oh, dog the dog, up the dog.

(35:55):
What you have just heard listeners all over the world
is warning, and you will hear this warning from here
on out. You've been listening to your leaders tell you
that there's a great move towards democracy in the world.
You witnessed the parting of the Iron Curtain, the fall

(36:16):
of the Balloon Wall, the fracturing of the Soviet Union,
and this is all supposedly toward a new worldwide democracy.
Democracy is a code word for socialism, and that's why
our forefathers established a republic. Okay, so you can I

(36:38):
just love imagining flipping on that set on the radio
by accident, just like barking dogs and like trumpict. Yeah,
but you also hear like Bill's delivery. He's he's figured
out how to be a radio host in this time. Yeah,
he's definitely improved. Yeah, his cadence is really good. He

(36:59):
knows how to like it's he knew how to He
knew how to put together a radio show. He would
also put in like he would broadcast like entire songs
that were like kind of popular songs that fit in
with the theme of like what he was saying that episode,
Like he would have like musical interludes and ship. He
was a good broadcaster, um and he like yeah he was.
He was able to um draw in a lot of listeners,

(37:21):
maybe even for a lot of folks who wouldn't have
listened to most other people in kind of like the
crazy militia person radio sphere. Um. And as a result,
his work still resonates today, but unfortunately not with a
group of people. Bill would have been happy to resonate
with um. If you look up on where that that
SoundCloud link I sent you. Um, it's hosted by someone
named conscious Sounds. Uh. They have twenty followers. And look

(37:44):
at that photoshop logo that they designed for Bill's show
that wasn't his. No notice the Israeli flag sandwiched right
in between George W. Bush and Osama bin Laden and
then the watermark Iron Volke, iron Reich printed at the
bottom of the mh okay I did it's not it's not.

(38:04):
Oh yeah, these guys they're learning there's Nazis who are
trying to be a little bit subtle about it. And
I think they see they kind of recognize Bill Cooper
is a good way to get people kind of on
board with once you once you're listening to Bill Cooper,
you can be convinced that like, actually he was wrong
when he said it wasn't the Jews, Like because you
already believe all this stuff, you just replace them with Illuminati.

(38:26):
We just got to switch the Jews back in there,
and then you're good to go. Um, yeah, fucking dark.
It's weird because yeah, Bill again was absolutely whatever else
you can say about him, and again it's mostly negative.
He wasn't a Nazi, although he did work in the
company of Nazis the hour of the time. Has that
improved the situation? Well, he just catered to Nazis and

(38:48):
worked with them free. He didn't he I don't think
he catered to them. We'll listen to something in a bit.
You may change your mind about that. He's more complicated
than that. But he He was broadcast by the shortwave
radio station w w c R UM and by the
time Bill got into his groove, his his competition were
guys and what's called the Patriot Community UM basically early
preppers UM, including two guys named Chuck Harder and Tom

(39:11):
Valentine UM and and Bill didn't get along with either
UM for a number of reasons. One of them is
that Valentine had a better primetime slot than his He
was nine to eleven PM. Uh yeah. But also valentine
show was sponsored by The Spotlight, which was Willis Carto's
Liberty Lobbies Holocaust denial newsletter. We talked about that in

(39:35):
the War on everyone some yeah. UM. Other competition included
like celebrity host guys like William Pearce did radio stuff
in this time, UM, you know, g Gordon Liddy and
stuff like would be on the same network. So Bill
is kind of in and among a bunch of like
really bad dudes right like his his the other people

(39:56):
who are kind of on the radio in and around
him are like very violent and often have ties to Nazis. Um.
Like fucking William Pierce is a guest on some of
the shows that are that are hosted in and around
Bill show. Bill himself was probably the most palatable individual
personality in the patriot movement at this stage, because he
was like he was kind of the first person in

(40:17):
this movement. Like everyone's talking about the boogleoo movement and
whether or not it's racist, and like a lot of
these guys focus on like no, we're you know, we're
pro gun and we're we're libertarians, but we're like anti
racist and stuff. Bill was the first guy in right
wing media to thread that needle. Um. He was really
the first one to do it in like a practical way, um.

(40:38):
And this helped broaden the appeal of the early malicious
scene and the patriot movement whatever you wanna call it,
by drawing in these more libertarian Americans who wouldn't have
listened to a show that was putting fucking William Pierce
on but would listen to Bill Cooper, Well, it's it
sounds like the fucking YouTube algorithm, where it's like, Okay,
here's something that is like, you know, a little like

(40:59):
it's some stuff, you know, and then some radical ideas
being snuck in and Okay, this is a familiar this
is a familiar model, I guess. Yeah. And and Bill
himself did go to like when I say that he
wasn't a Nazi, I don't think I'm giving him too
much credit here. And for an example of like why
I think that, I want to play a segment from
one of Bill's relatively few shows that touched on race

(41:21):
to a significant extent. And this was the episode that
he put out in the immediate wake of the LA
riots um which were of course sparked by the acquittal
of the cops who beat the ship out of Rodney King. Right,
that happens, and you get the l A Riots. And
here's Bill Cooper's part of Bill Cooper's response to the
LA Riots. The entire nations in the world had been
viewing an amateur videotape that had been taken on the scene,

(41:45):
which showed over fifty blows. I believe the correct number
was fifty six blows in eighty seconds to a man
who was lying on the ground, who had no weapon,
who posed no threat, who did not attack anyone during
this term. But nevertheless, fifties six blows from clubs what

(42:11):
the office is called the turns. That's a polite name
for a club a stick. Can I believe no one
believed if those officers would be firm innocent? Okay, that
is that is not what I would have expected from him, right, No,
that's that's a pretty reasonable thing to say about the

(42:33):
Rodney King beatings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's basically the only way,
like an honest person could could, which Bill was not.
But he you can't really fault what he's saying there. Um,
And he went on like he went on to complain
about the looting and rioting by people in Los Angeles
and say that, like, you know, it was they were
making a really dumb call by like destroying their own neighborhoods.

(42:54):
But he's catering to boomers, of course. Yeah. He reserved
the bulk of his anger for white Americans, as embodied
by his listeners telling them a quote, when you sit
in front of your television on Friday and Saturday night
and watch cops, Top Cops, Lady cops, Cops, swat cops,
detective cops, Grandma cops. You watch them break down doors
without identifying themselves, without a search warrant, without a court order,

(43:16):
rip people's mattresses apart, throw up away their clothes. If
they don't find anything, all they have to do is
drop a little bag of white powder. You sit there
cheering them on. Get those scummies so and so's, And
the reason you do it is because you're watching. It
happened to blacks, to minorities, poor white trash, Puerto Ricans,
everyone who was a threat to you. So like Bill
wasn't the always He wasn't always the guy you expected

(43:38):
him to be, right. That was one of the things
that makes him interesting is like he would there would
be these moments where you'd like, be okay, Bill is
going to have like a real fucked up take, and
be like, no, he was kind of He was more
or less right about that. This one, Bill pretty firdly
comes down on the right side of history. Now. He
also went on to complain that the judge who acquitted
those LAPD cops was a Mason and like like the thread, Yeah,

(44:03):
so you started strong. Yeah, but you can see you
can see a lot of the same kind of discourse
and the same the same style that like the same
kind of ideological statements that are being made by like
the boogaloo folks today, right like, um, you know, yeah,
Bill sounds a lot like a lot of the fucking
guys that was watching on Facebook and the immediate wake

(44:24):
of the George Floyd protests, he would have been well
at home in that organization or in that not organization,
but in that that community. Um. Now, in his role
as the voice of America's new militia movement, Bill saw
his main duty as warning good conservative Americans that the
government and the form of socialist politicians was coming to
disarm them as a prelude to tyranny and mass to population.

(44:44):
Bill Show popularized the conspiracy theory that the US government
stages mass shootings in order to drum up support for
gun control. And this was before the Columbine shooting. Bill
starts this conspiracy theory off in the United States, and
I'm gonna the next thing I went have you play
is Bill reading a passage of his book on the air.
In n So again, this is what seven years before

(45:06):
Columbying and like twenty something years before the Sandy Hook shootings.
In that conspiracy starts here, here's Bill laying the groundwork
for all of that ship. The government encouraged the manufacture
and importation of military firearms for the criminals to use.
This is intended to foster a feeling of insecurity which

(45:27):
would lead the American people to voluntarily disarmed themselves by
passing laws against firearms, using drugs and hypnosis on mental
patients in a process called O'Ryan, the CIA and cultated
the desire in these people to open fire on schoolyards
and thus inflame the anti gun lobby. This plan is

(45:49):
well under way and so far is working perfectly. The
middle class is begging the government to do away with
the Second Amendment. So Bill starts that mass shootings are
a government conspiracy, conspiracy theory and fucking ninety one. Um, yeah,
what do you make of that? That's amazing? That is

(46:13):
I know, I'm just like I'm trying to build really
ahead of it's his time. Um, and he knew what
would take off because obviously this conspiracy theory takes off,
and if you look at the YouTube video. It was
like a YouTube video of people being like see Bill
Cooper revealed the government's planned to stage mass shootings. Yeah,
it couldn't have been a lucky guess because file cabinet. Yeah. Interesting, Okay,

(46:38):
So Bill had a real gift for weaving far fetched
fantasies about the Illuminati and mind control weapons and with
down to work, earth like folksy rants about modernity. Like
that was his gift. As he would take this crazy
shit and he would weave it into real shit. And
it would it would it would that that draws people in.
Like he didn't. He didn't, He didn't sound the same

(46:59):
way it again, that guy with like a box full
of like photographed z or mimiographed zeems at a gun
show seems like right like it there there's like a
grounded nous to it that you don't usually get. I
do kind of wonder, I mean, because you were saying
like he just like spoke NonStop for years, like I
mean for everything like this. That feels kind of like

(47:22):
a wow. Maybe he you know, this was a pretty
like you know, valid comment. How many hundreds of bullshit
that makes no sense? Um to counter that? Yeah, I
mean Bill was was every day of his life was bullshit.
That was that happened. And then I mean, if if
you talk that much bullshit, you're bound to hit on
something useful every once in a while. Yeah, I mean

(47:44):
it's and it's not like, well, I mean it's not
something that's true because obviously mass shootings are a product
of a wide variety of unhealthy things in our culture.
And I don't think any reasonable person thinks the government
is even competent enough to fake that sort of thing.
But just hitting on the idea that it would be
an appealing idea, Well that that's what he understands, is
like what what people want to believe? And he what

(48:05):
people need is like, here's this real problem mass shootings.
We need to explain you know, the soaring violent crime
rate in the early nineties. I need to explain it
with something that blames it on but like makes it
a part of this conspiracy. Like that was Bill's talent
is weaving that ship together, um, and he would do
it by like yeah, Um. One of I think the

(48:26):
most revealing rants that he put together that sort of
shows you his appeal was was him sort of complaining
about automobiles. He stated, I've gone from driving automobiles that
I could take apart and put together blindfolded by myself
as a teenager, to cars that I can lift the
hood on and not even recognize most of what I'm
looking at, except that I know it's an engine in there,
some kind of system that ignites the fuel. And this

(48:46):
was like Bill was basically taking with this sort of thing,
these kind of feelings of inadequacy that we're very common
and increasingly common. And this chunk of American men who's
like jobs, good factory jobs, one that had been eliminated,
these guys where a lot of them lived in like
rural communities that were very rapidly dying as the country
increasingly urbanized. Um, so he would take these feelings of

(49:07):
like being bowled over by the complexity of modern technology
and feeling left behind, so would weave them into this
conspiracy about the new world order. As his biographer notes,
Bill basically argued that stuff like, you know, the increasing
complexity of automobile engines wasn't just a factor of developing technology.
It was quote one more way the controllers separated you
from the utility of your person. This was how silent

(49:29):
weapons work. How they stuck the dunce cap of helplessness
on your head. And a big part of Bill's appeal
was that he provided his listeners with a way to
feel as if they were part of the solution, actually
fighting back against this new world order, rather than just
sitting helplessly and watching it eat everything. Uh. He created
the Citizens Agency for Joint Intelligence or CADGY, which Bill

(49:49):
marketed as a sort of volunteer civilian answer to the
CIA or the FBI. Yeah, citizen Joint intelligence. Citizen Agency
for Joint Intelligence. Yeah, I mean I both made the same.
Any of his listeners could join CADGY and start collecting
and submitting intelligence would which Bill would read on air

(50:11):
if he liked it. And so this had a couple
of benefits. Never one let his listeners feel like they
were part of this like insurgent movement fighting back against
the new world order, and it filled up airtime because
Bill could just read bullshit that his audience sent in
as if it was intelligence that his agency had brought
another like twenty four hour news cycle, A little head
of the curve there. It's very smart, very smart, And

(50:33):
CAGY wasn't just like an institute off on its own.
It was the intelligence wing of the Second Continental Army,
which Bill claimed was a secret nationwide militia dedicated to
the preservation of the values that the US had been
founded under. Bill refused to give up the name of
the commanding general of this August Force because it was him,
but many of the promotion papers that he handed out

(50:53):
were signed by George Washington. Yeah, it was always like,
really k g about who was in charge. It was
obvious was built. Yeah, because it was him. Yeah, because
it was him, he was the whole army. Yeah. But
then he's like, but who knows. It's hard to say. Yeah. So,
over his years on the air, Cooper engaged in a

(51:13):
number of objectively ridiculous stunts, like all right wing ideal logus.
Bill Nurson abiding hate for the mainstream media, but he
tried to do something about it, organizing his listeners in
a scheme to buy up millions of shares of Ghanet Media,
owner of USA Today. And the plan was that all
of his listeners would buy enough of Ghanette Media to
have a controlling voting interest um and then they would

(51:35):
basically put Bill in charge, and he would fire everyone
who didn't want to put out right wing propaganda. It
didn't it didn't work. No, but christ yeah, you know what,
will buy up all of the shares of Ghanett Media
to put out right wing propaganda the products and services

(51:59):
that support this podcast. Oh I hope, so yeah, and
we're back um okay so uh. In nineteen four, Bill
threw his support behind the newly formed Constitution Party, which

(52:21):
had been made by some Hollywood libertarian dude. I think
it was part of a grift, but anyway, U. Bill
announced his like new membership and support of this movement,
essentially acting as it's like the voice of the Constitution
Party by announcing America is no longer a two party country,
Ladies and gentlemen. Um. Problems obviously cropped up almost immediately.

(52:42):
The chief issue was that Bill and the party he
joined were pretty much straight up libertarians. Meanwhile, many of
his listeners were hard right religious nutfox uh. They hated
two major planks of the Constitution Party, which were and again, Jamie,
this is another place where you'll be surprised legal legal
abortion and the right to be homosexual. Um. And in

(53:03):
another surprising turn, Bill took to the airwaves to defend
both planks on the matter of abortion. He said, we
are firm ladies and gentlemen. God put us here to
make choices, and the moral choices the woman's. And if
she fries in what some of you would call hell
for eternity, that is her choice. For it is she
who will fry. But it's not. But it is not
the business of the state to say yes, no, maybe,
or anything. But it's a woman's choice. Like he's he's

(53:24):
he's whatever, Okay, I mean him being like, you know what,
let the lady burn in hell if she wants to.
I don't guess saying that. I think he's saying that,
like if you think she's going to hell, it doesn't matter,
Like it's still not the states, but it's not the
state's business to say if she does it or not. Right.
I actually don't think Bill cared at all about abortion, clearly,

(53:46):
I mean clearly not there I can't. I mean, it's like,
you know, personally, you know, we don't we don't claim
this man, but I guess it's nice to not have
him actively against reproductive rights. That's yeah, it's with this guy.
It says a lot that that, like he has to
yell at his listeners over ship like this because like

(54:07):
they're all such bigots, um, and Bill is just not
quite as bad Um, and actually like his defensive bigotry
a little more focused in yeah, yeah, I mean he
just hates the government. That's really Bill's whole thing is
he hates the government and wants wants to destroy it
because he thinks it's an evil quasi Satanist conspiracy. Um,

(54:28):
it's weird. He's a weird guy. Like his defensive homosexual
homosexuality was actually like pretty good, um telling. He told
his very religious listeners quote, the most you can never
hope to do is force them back into the closets
so that you cannot see them, and then you will
be living a lie, just as we have been living
lies throughout our history. And lies must stop. Which is

(54:49):
interesting because he's also he's he's still putting the like
it's your you who will be living a lie by
denying these people exist, and like that's why you shouldn't
do it. It's a weird defense of not criminalizing gay people.
Um builds a weird guy. There's a lot of like
moments like that with him, where it's like what the
funk are you? Yeah, and I don't want to be

(55:09):
washing him here because these are like, these areas where
he's surprisingly decent um kind of just have been used
sometimes by folks to obscure the fact that he was
fundamentally a man who believed that anything that vaguely smacked
of socialism was tyranny and had to be violently opposed
by men with guns. Um. And so while he would
be doing stuff like saying, hey, it's fine if you're gay,

(55:32):
he would also be saying, you should have as many
guns as possible so that you can kill people who
try to, I don't know, give healthcare to folks. Like
what Yeah, okay, I I mean I still hate the man,
but you should. But but there are some there are

(55:53):
some twists here there. Yeah, it is, I mean, do
you think it is just like it has to do
with like he wants to keep the focus on what
he really cares about, and it's like, you know kind
of like okay, like I get that this is something
that bothers you, but like, don't worry about that, ye
worry about like look over here, this is my show,
and we're worrying about the things that I hate. God,

(56:13):
you have a radio show. You can hate your own ship.
There's a there's a shitty radio show for that other
hateful thing, you think on the same network. Like you
don't have to wait long. Oh yeah, you don't like it,
wait forty five minutes. Yeah. Bill's show hosted an eighteen
hour long series called Treason, making the case that US
government officials were committing a daily barrage of unconstitutional acts

(56:35):
that demanded some sort of response. Um. He also told
his listeners to watch two thousand one of Space Odyssey
because it included secret messages hidden by the illuminati. Um yeah, um.
And this is like this is the thing you're here
in Q and on stuff. Now, there's this like widespread
belief that like the Cabal, this like elite group of

(56:59):
Satanic demon worshippers hide like the secrets of their Like
there's all these weird Hollywood movies that are real, Like
the Bourne Identity is like there's act like there's real,
Like it is like fundamentally real. It's just yeah, yeah,
because the the elite have to hide the truth about
what they're doing in plain sight. It's this thing that

(57:20):
they need to do. Um. And Bill thought that it
was because of like this weird kind of occult tradition
that where you basically have to in order to like
provide power to your occult rituals, you have to like
tell people about the evil things you're doing in the open,
and so like they would hide all this stuff in Hollywood.

(57:40):
Like that was an innovation of Bills. That is like
one of the things that the core of Q went
on today. And he's the first guy to be like
and it was Billy with Billy Bailey. He would watch
a movie he liked and then would be like, and
here's why, Like this is reveal some truth about the Illuminati.
Conspiracy is the thing Alex Jones does too. Um yeah. Now,

(58:00):
it was the Waco siege that really made Bill Cooper,
the multi week assault by the A t F and
the FBI on a peaceful religious compound in the middle
of nowhere. It was exactly the kind of violent overreach
that he'd spent his career warning people about. It was
like the perfect thing for Bill Cooper to focus on, right,
Like he's been saying for years, the government's going to
come to like kill all Christians and stuff and you know,

(58:22):
institute this new world order. And here they go after
this compound of weirdos in the middle of nowhere, Texas.
Um So, for weeks, Bill would you know, basically tell
his listeners that Waco was a test case to see
if Americans would put up with the n w o's
plans to eliminate millions of people. Um, like they're seeing
if you're going to rise up. You know, if a
bunch of militiamen would just show up at Waco and

(58:43):
like stand around it, they would back off and like
then you know, we could we could turn the tide.
But of course nobody was willing to actually do that.
Um So, for weeks, Bill would cover the federal government's
treachery and when the real victim like in you know,
the government, by the way, was committing a ton of
horrible crimes Waco, Like the whole thing was one horrible
crime pretty much. Yeah, this is like, you know, attached

(59:05):
to something where it's like, well, yeah, there is something
clearly very bad going on here. Um yeah. Yeah. But
he would also because he was a liar, it wasn't
enough the actual funded up ship that was going on,
so he would he would like he invented this claim
that the FBI had sent in tainted milk that had
killed two children um, which he would repeat for weeks,
which is like there had no basis in fact, Um,

(59:27):
it wasn't necessary because the FBI killed seventies something children
at Waco, Like you don't have to lie about tainted milk.
They burnt kids to death, Like it's not it's not
necessary Bill. Um. He was also adamant that David Koresh
was monogamous and does not play around on his wife,
which is what's the point. I think that's like mon

(59:49):
he had. Koresh had to be a good guy, and
the people at Waco had to be like fundamentally heroic
rather than like a bunch of flawed and fucked up
people themselves who still didn't deserved to be burnt alive. Yeah.
So obviously Bill was as horrified as the rest of
the world when the David Koresh that David Koresh was

(01:00:13):
not just defending David Koresh but picking to Hill, David
Koresh was faithful to his wife, Like that's what we
all know about David. He didn't a ton of random women.
Oh my god. Yeah, I mean, especially since we all
know David Koresh had incredible abs. I mean, just stop

(01:00:34):
David Koresh's abs were as cut as Bernard Sanders was
good at shooting people in a moving vehicle. Cut my
own beanie baby's arm off. This is so stressful. So
Bill was as horrified as the rest of the nation
when the FBI's final raid on the Branch Davidian compound
ended in you know, dozens of children burning to death.
Um in just horrible, horrible, literal war crime. Um. Yeah.

(01:01:00):
On his first broadcast back after the siege, Bill opened
the show by declaring, America the Beautiful is no more.
He told his listeners that the second battle of the
Second American Revolution had ended, and folks, we lost. The
first battle was Ruby Ridge, So I mean, you know
it it that was you know, Waco was. One of

(01:01:23):
the things that's interesting about Waco is that for a
lot of people who had been kind of reflexively pro
America and pro the government just because it was America
and they were kind of like patriotic bumble fox, um,
Waco was the thing broke a lot of them. Um.
And there's it's like like it's kind of the foundational

(01:01:45):
movement of the patriot movement in the militia movement that
exists with US today. For there's a reason the Boogaloo
boys put the names of like the Weavers who died
at Ruby Ridge um and share Waco meetings so much.
It's because, like this is where that starts. This is
where like the insurge right in this country really starts
to grow. And Bill Cooper is the one nursing it.
Like the violent right had not been a big thing

(01:02:07):
since the end of World War two that had really
put an into it. Pretty much like you've had the
KKK in some parts of the South during the Civil
Rights movement, but like not an insurgent force aimed at
overthrowing the government. That that starts now, and Bill Cooper
is its first profit right um, Like he's directly saying,
like you the listeners are like part of a war

(01:02:30):
against your government now because of Waco. Oh yeah, yeah, okay,
I mean and and it's unfortunately, like you can see
what he's like creating these pins for people that you
can understand why people are taking the opportunity. I mean,
whether if you believe Bill Cooper, the only thing to
do is kill people in the government, is murder members

(01:02:53):
of the government. And by the way, his most famous
listener decides to do just that. Becau is. Bill's biggest
fan in this period of time was a young military
veteran named Tim McVeigh. Yeah, yeah, Timmy McVeigh. Baby, yeah uh,
Tim McVeigh. Always a pleasure when we get to you, Timmy.

(01:03:15):
So Tim loved Tim loved the hour of the time,
and then the months prior to the Oklahoma City bombing,
there's even evidence that he visited Bill Cooper's, the place
where Bill Cooper recorded, and like met with Bill Cooper
um and like this almost certainly happened. It's it's pretty
widely believed, and the most credible version of the story

(01:03:35):
suggests that basically Bill was kind of sketched out. It
was like Tim and some other guy and they were
like clearly weird and unhinged. And Tim asked him, like,
if I get stopped by a cop, should I shoot
him rather than accept a speeding ticket? And Bill was like, no,
you shouldn't shoot a man over a speeding ticket. But like, yeah,
it's this really sketchy story where like there are a

(01:03:56):
couple of people who were around Bill at the time.
While we're like, yeah, this guy who after the Oklahoma
City bombing, we all recognized as Tim McVeigh came by
and was like, I'm your biggest fan, Bill and asked
him weird questions about shooting cops. Um. And it's worth
noting that the reason Tim got caught is that he
got pulled over driving away from Oklahoma City and he
had a gun on him and chose not to shoot

(01:04:17):
the officer who was pulling him over, which is why
he got caught. So wow, So listening to Bill is
what got him caught. It's saved one guy's life and
got like a hundred and sixty eight other people killed. Well,
I mean, obviously we talked a lot about Tim McVay
in the War on Everyone. There was a shipload going
on in Tim mcveah's ideological development, including a lot of

(01:04:39):
Nazis ship. I think people do tend to put too
much of the blame on Bill, but in the immediate
wake of the bombing, Bill actually does get a lot
of the blame just because he It kind of immediately
comes out that Tim mcveigh's favorite radio host is this
like right wing nut job Bill Cooper. Like I think
the President mentions Bill Cooper and stuff, so like Bill
becomes Bill gets a lot of the immediate blame for

(01:05:01):
radicalizing Tim McVey when really things like the Turner Diaries
that like, there's a lot of other things, I mean,
for people who are inclined to agree with Tim McVey.
A lot of free press. Yeah, yeah, it is. It
is a lot of free press. And it's yeah, it's
an interesting tale. Um. So when McVeigh, you know, did
that thing that McVeigh did, Bill Cooper immediately knew what

(01:05:22):
was really going on. This was not you know, a
right wing militia dude carrying Bill's ideas to their logical
extent and declaring war on the government, which is what
actually happened. Uh, this was a false flag attack aimed
at taking down the militia movement and justifying a government crackdown. Um,
which is actually kind of the obvious opposite of what
happened really, but yeah, um so Bill had one of

(01:05:44):
his cadgy agents start collecting stories for a book on
the first twenty four hours after the blast to document
how the media spun events to fit their narrative, and
they actually like published up like put together like this
whole gigantic book about the first day after Oklahoma City
that they thought was going to be like the new
the next you know, the the rightful follow up to
Behold a Pale Horse, But nobody bought it because it

(01:06:06):
was like boring and dumb. Um. Yeah. Now, Bill grew
increasingly unhinged in the days and weeks after the Oklahoma
City bombing. He warned his listeners that the end was nigh. Uh.
He told them that mock American cities were being built
in the desert for the military to train in to
prepare to like purge the United States of dissidents. Uh.

(01:06:27):
He'd started talking about black helicopters circling areas with too
high up population of real Americans, and of course he
started talking about FEMA camps being set up to incarceerate
a newly disarmed American populace um. Yeah. And of course
a big part of it for for Bill is that
like the government's going to use the whole militia thing
as an excuse to take our guns. And they did

(01:06:47):
pass an assault weapons ban not too long after this,
So like there's a lot of things keep happening that
make Bill seem really credible to the fringe. Right, is
like Bill said, they're going to take our guns, and
then they passed this law to take our guns, not
considering that it was part of Bill's work that created
the problems. Yes, that really helped create the system where
they were like, oh man, it seems like a lot
of people have military grade weaponry who are violently unhinged.

(01:07:08):
Maybe let's try to do which I'm not a fan
of the assault weapons ban either, but like you can
maybe it's not like let's create create a media yeah
show where Bill were encouraging it. It's a great way
to get a lot. Yeah. Yeah, he has a big
impact on why that happens. He's a big impact on
the growth of the militia feedback loop developing here with

(01:07:29):
exactly it's the same thing with like these boogaloo guys
who are obsessed with like being Second Amendment absolutists and
or who are going to guarantee massive restriction gun restrictive
gun control legislation comes in if a Democrat ever gets
into office again, because you guys have been such like
like violent lunatics in public, waving guns around and scaring

(01:07:50):
people and like yeah, thanks, yeah, yeah, you did a
great job and create the problem that if there is
a crackdown, it's like, well that is you know, in
no small part your fault there. Yeah. So in August
of mcveigh's old friend Michael Fortier, did an interview with
a far right newsletter where when asked what led to

(01:08:11):
the bombing, he replied, I can't say a whole lot,
but we heard lots of tapes and saw videos and
read things. There's this guy with the radio station in Arizona,
Bill Cooper. He keeps calling people sheeple and was mad
that they ain't doing anything to change things. Well, we
got to thinking that's right, things need to change. Tim
really responded to that um. In nineteen James Nichols testified
in federal court that he, his brother Terry, and Tim

(01:08:32):
McVeigh listened to Cooper as often as they could. They
called him the voice of the militia movement. So, yeah, Bill,
Bill helps to cause all of the things that cause
all of the things that he's scared about. That's right.
So it's I mean with that kind of like, you know, uh,
looking at it now, you're like, well, of course he

(01:08:53):
may have seemed right about a lot of these things.
He was anticipating potential consequences to problems that he was
to create. Yeah, it's like government isn't guilty of the
stuff like that themselves. I just uh yeah, yeah, It's
it's like when when I when the the f d
A eventually raids my compound and burns dozens of children
to death in our basement, all seem like a profit

(01:09:14):
for having predicted it, But really, by constantly engaging in
this battle with the FDA for years, you know, I'm I'm,
I'm in a way creating the situation myself, which is
why should associated with this clip When it inevitably um
surfaces after after your prediction turns out to have been true,
you know what you should do, Jamie is by one

(01:09:35):
of our new f d A approved to cure all
diseases masks, which are in fact FDA approved to cure
all diseases. That's official FDA approval. Um, So by the mask.
He just did that entire thing to plug his new
merch Just so you know, this whole episode Bitcoin I am,
I am digging up metaphorically the corpses of the dead

(01:09:56):
at Waco in Oklahoma City and Ruby Ridge in order
to face masks and spark a fight with the f
d A. That's that's because I'm a monster too. I'm
just as bad as Bill Cooper. I'm putting that on
your Wikipedia page. Thank you, thank you. So um coming

(01:10:17):
up in the biggest trial in American history as the
inspiration behind a mad bomber was not a great move
for Bill's long term career, especially since he'd stopped paying
taxes in nineteen nine two and also light on a
loan application. UM. So he starts getting warrants issued for
his arrest for again committing crimes. Um. And he lives

(01:10:37):
up on top of a mountain in Arizona at this
point in time, and the sheriff of Apache County where
he lived, was actually a pretty smart guy and was like,
if I try to arrest Bill Cooper, He's going to
go down in a hail of gunfire and it's going
to be just a terrible It's gonna be another Ruby
Ridge and I'm not gonna fucking do that. Like, he
can live on the top of his mountain for another

(01:10:58):
fifty years for all I care. And he tells the
f eyas the Sheriff's like, I'm not like arrested this
guy is, and the FBI are like, yeah, it seems
like a really bad idea to arrest this guy. Anything
that happens to Bill Cooper, to him is like a
confirmation that what he was saying was right. He's like, well,
I'll probably be you know, taken out or arrested. It's like, well, yeah,
because you're evading your taxes. But yeah, yeah, the problem

(01:11:19):
you've created. Well, and that's exactly what Bill does with it.
So like the actual law enforcement in his area just
kind of leaves him alone. Like he regularly will go
to a local Mexican restaurant and get enchiladas and ship
and like nobody tries anything because again, nobody wants the
bullshit that would come with trying to bring Bill Cooper
in being so annoying. Yeah, but Bill becomes a massive

(01:11:39):
drama queen about the whole thing, breathlessly talking about the
siege of his compound and like bragging about it, like
how he and his wife and his his little daughter
like aren't leaving and you know, won't leave. They don't
leave for years and are like living under and he'll
talk about how like they've got anti helicopter countermeasures and
like secret militiamen guarding his compound with him, and you know,
he'll vaguely discussed all his security men shars and ship

(01:12:00):
which was all bullshit. He had one friend who was
like a vet who would like hang out with a
gun with him sometimes when he got scared, and he
had like some cans strung up like he had no
there was no like security network set up like he
was canned. His security was I maybe I may be
making that one up, but it was he didn't have
any sort of meaningful security network because he was broke

(01:12:22):
and living in a crumbling house on top of a
mountain because he he had no money. Um. Yeah, and
you know, it's we don't know a lot. We don't
know a huge amount about his situation with his wife,
but at least one of his friends catches him having
like this really vicious, screaming fight with her where he's
like at least mentally abusive, and you get the feeling

(01:12:42):
he was probably physically abusive to her, and we're taking
his past history accounts almost certainly. At the same time,
it becomes really clear to anyone listening that like, really
the only thing keeping Bill kind of tethered to reality
is his daughter. Um, and he'll have she's a little
kid at this point, he'll have her on the show.
A bunch. She hosts it with him sometimes and he's

(01:13:04):
like really, um, yeah, like it's it's it's kind of heartbreaking.
I don't want to go into too much just because
it's a real bummer to listen to them together because
eventually Bill's abusiveness forces his wife to leave him, and
she like flees with their daughter and he never sees
her again. Um, because of what happens next. But yeah,

(01:13:26):
and that, like yeah, that's that. Like again, she did
absolutely the right thing because Bill at this point is
a hardcore alcoholic. He's continued to be mentally and probably
physically abusive. He's locked them away in a mountaintop compound
hiding from the fucking Feds, directly tied to the Oklahoma
City BOS, directly tied to the Oklahoma City bombing. Like

(01:13:49):
Annie makes the right call in getting their kid the
funk out of there eventually, And again Annie deserves some
pome because she stays for a long time and she's
a pretty at least for a chunk of his career,
a very willing participant in the Bill Cooper thing. Um
also a victim to but also like, I don't know,
it's a fucked up story. Everything about this guy's relationships

(01:14:10):
are fucked up. Um, thankfully she doesn't get the I
and I don't know anything about his daughter today. Um,
and I'm not going to look it up because she
deserves to have some chance to get away from Yeah.
Bill's last remaining years were spent putting out a series
of increasingly morose broadcasts and occasionally watching the conspiratorial seeds

(01:14:31):
he'd sown bare fruit, like when he watched the nine
X Files movie and recognized huge chunks of Behold a
Pale Horse served up his entertainment um, which he found
very exciting. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. As Bill's life
shrank to the confines of his increasingly decrepit home, he
himself sunk into alcoholism. But many of the ideas he

(01:14:52):
popularized we're working their way into popular culture. They just
grown beyond him at this point. On June two thousand one,
Bill Cooper made what would be his greatest prediction yet.
He told his listeners that a major attack on the
United States was coming, and then it would be blamed
on Osama Bin Laden. Really yep, yep. June one, names

(01:15:13):
been Laden in the broadcast. Now, again, not much of
a prediction, because Bin Laden had bombed the World Trade
Center a couple of years earlier and was one of
the most famous terrorists in the world at the time. Wait,
hold on, wait what year is this? This is two?
This is but like before right before nine eleven, but
after the first World Trade Center bombing, like Ben Latton

(01:15:33):
bombed it before, right, Yeah, So it's so that isn't okay, okay, okay,
you're right here. So he gives this prediction and then
in the immediate wake of the attack, like he's obviously
really horrified, but he also kind of he's the very
first truther, Like he's one of the very first guys
who starts talking about like how the thing, the building
shouldn't have fallen the way it did, and like Steele
doesn't work that way. All the all this stuff that

(01:15:54):
like with like like a jet fueld doesn't melt. In fact,
a lot of folks will argue that loose change that documentary,
a huge amount of it was plagiarized from stuff Bill
Cooper had started saying in the immediate wake of nine
eleven because because he dies like two seconds after he
dies two seconds after nine eleven, but he but that's
the way Bill's mind works, he's immediately spinning conspiracies. He

(01:16:16):
can't not do it, So he leaves the world with
nine eleven Trutherism. Um, and he leaves the world with
Alex Jones, who Jones in his early career talked about
Bill Cooper a lot, clearly admired him, deeply had Bill
on as a guest once. Um, and Bill fucking hated
Alex Jones and ranted about him a couple of times

(01:16:36):
on his own show and basically saw him as a
charlatan and everything that was wrong with America. I mean yeah,
which is ironic because like a lot of like Alex
Jones made a bunch of money in his earlier selling
like Golden Ship two People over the Radio, and Bill
Cooper was the first guy to do that, or not
the first gay, but like the first conspiracy not to
do that. Um, so yeah, that's cool. Uh, that's that's

(01:17:02):
that's neat. Yeah. So Bill, you know it starts nine
eleven Trutherism as kind of a last hurrah. And in
July of two thousand one, so less than a month
after you know, his big prediction, Uh, Bill makes the
stake mistake of threatening a local doctor named hamblin Um
and so yeah, like basically Bill lived on top of

(01:17:23):
this mountain, and the mountain most of it was like
public property, Like anyone could come onto Bill's mountain if
they wanted. But Bill thought it was his mountain, and
people who drove up onto it perfectly within their rights
to do so. Um, we're like damaging his security measures. Um.
So he would regularly come out with a handgun and
threaten to murder people for driving onto public land. Um.

(01:17:46):
And yeah, this got him in trouble. Uh. And in
in two thousand one, you know, the county had a
new sheriff. The guy who had been like it's not
worth it to go after him, um is gone. And
this new sheriff is like an idiot. He's like a
rec this dumbass. And it's like we can it's time
to finally do something about Bill Cooper. It'll be big
news if we do it, like it'll be good for

(01:18:06):
my career. Um. So not all that long after nine eleven, Uh,
this sheriff launches a raid on Bill Cooper. And like
the idea is to basically pretend to be you know,
a motorist who's like wandered up to his mountain. Bill
comes out and you kind of can surround him and
arrest him. Um, And it kind of relies on Bill
not being the most paranoid man alive, which Bill work

(01:18:29):
very well. No, Bill immediately realizes that like the cops
are trying to trap him, um, and he tries to
like run him down in his car and Yeah, the
whole thing degenerates into a gunfight and Bill shoots an
officer dead before going down himself in a hail of gunfire. Um. Well, ye,
I feel like if he had to go, I mean

(01:18:50):
he I'm not he went down, but I feel like
he was probably satisfied with Yeah. I think on an
emotional level, Bill Cooper need too needed to go down
being murdered by cops and like a dawn like in
like a raid, like that was the way he expected
to go for years, And it also validates his own

(01:19:12):
like perception of himself. Yeah, and he's he was clearly
he was sick. He probably wouldn't have lived that much longer. Um,
it's a shame he killed a random guy on his
way out, but also it was a cop who was
fucking with him, So whatever, it's whatever. Kind of a wash,
it's kind of a wash. It's if you're looking at

(01:19:33):
like how most of these guys leave the world, Like
Alex Jones is going to have a much more depressing
ending than Bill Cooper. Bill Cooper kind of got what
he wanted in the end, which is he gonna like
die of like gout or something. Yeah, I know he's
going to live to be a hundred and fucking twenty
and become a Secretary of State. I don't know, Um,
just like you're just going to live to be the

(01:19:55):
grand dumb of conspiracy theories, just rotting in a house. Yeah,
there's a bunch of bummer. Like the book Pale Horse Writer. Um,
it's an interesting biography. I think it's pretty good. The
biographer is very sympathetic to Bill, probably more than his
ferret points. It's kind of hard not to be, I
think when you get that into somebody's life. Um, but
he definitely gives Bill more credit than I think Bill

(01:20:17):
deserves in a number of things. Um. But like his
his last days were sad as ship Like at one
point one of his daughters tries to reconnect with him
and like comes to his house and she lasts like
a week before the like, because he's an abusive prick um,
and he like scares her away um, like he's he's
down to, like he's he's barely had alienated all of
his remaining friends at that point. He was just like

(01:20:39):
this lonely, crazy old man with a bunch of guns
at the top of a hill, threatening passers by with
a pistol whenever they drove too close to his house.
Like those That was the last days of William Cooper.
Well again, I mean I will while I do think that,
you know, the the inks to like his life as

(01:21:02):
a military brand, and then the very clear PTSD that
like dogged him throughout his life are are sympathetic entry points. Um.
He seemed to have really lived out life full of
problems he created by himself. Yeah. Bill is a guy
who's dealt a rough hand of cards and throws the

(01:21:25):
cards away and starts pooping in a box and then
demanding people treat the poop as if it is a
deck of cards. Um. And when everyone else is like, no, Bill,
that's that's clearly poop um, he gets angry at the
entire world and starts a radio show that a good
and when has that ever gone well for anyone? Yeah?

(01:21:47):
So you know don't become a conspiracy icon at the
cost of your own happiness and loved ones. Uh, and
instead become a fashion icon and also render yourself commune
to all diseases with our new f d A approved
f d A approved to prevent all diseases. Masks. This
is a really good ad. This was this whole episode

(01:22:08):
was an ad, right, yeah, absolutely, yeah, okay, just checking.
Like Bill Cooper, I have decided to cash in on
the fact that I'm a fundamentally broken, anti social person
with a head full of ptsd um and I'm choosing
to do it with masks. Oh good, Well, I'm glad
that you could find someone to connect with on this show. Yeah. Boy,

(01:22:31):
I also threatened random people with a gun for driving
onto public land. But that's that's a separate that's a
kind of more of it, more of a kink than anything,
to be honest, Right, that's that's your that's your little
Jackie moment. Yeah yeah, yeah. So So Jamie, how are

(01:22:52):
you feeling? What's up? He said, how you're feeling? And
You're like, I question, you know, not thanks for checking in?
Uh not good. I don't feel good about it. I
feel this is this is a this is a more complicated,
not good than I'm used to um on the on

(01:23:12):
the show. But yeah, he's he's a complex man, a complex,
fundamentally abusive person who's toxicity, uh left him alone on
a mountaintop. Um yeah yeah, oh boy, Yeah, this was
a This was a dark one to tell you what.
It's that great. How do you feel? I feel? I

(01:23:34):
feel like I'm not at all looking into my own future? Um,
I have with each passing day, you know, we get worried,
we worry about you, and we get more worried about you.
That's actually my full time job. I get closer to
having that mountaintop compound. Um, you really are edging your

(01:23:58):
way up the mountain as time goes. Yeah yeah, yeah,
so that I can get into my last great fight
with the f d A. Um, cowards go down at
the hands of the f d A. You know it'll
be so funny. Oh my god. Yes, what a great
punchline to As a as a human being, I think

(01:24:19):
you owe a responsibility to try to like leave something
entertaining for the children, and like another person dying in
an old folks home, no kid's gonna like. But something
you hear about this this podcast host who started a
war with the FDA that got seventy kids burnt to
death in a basement. Like, that's a story, people, you
really need the kids cut out of this equation. I everybody,

(01:24:42):
this is why everyone still loves David Koresh. Look, he
he got seventy kids killed and now he's the sexy
guy with abs on a fucking Netflix special. So he
did have too many abs on the net. It's clearly
fine to get a lot of kids. Still, I don't
even think it was Netflix. I think it's just on Netflix.
Well that's where I watched it. Somebody he didn't have

(01:25:04):
too many apps on the show. At the point where did,
I was also like, whoever says for him to have
this many apps on the show? Whoever made it? It
was like was very hot and that guy was very not.
It was a bold choice to look at it a
man who fucked fourteen year olds uh and had illegal
child brides and say, we got to rehab this dude.

(01:25:27):
We got rehab this dude to be like, let's make
him sexy. We gotta we gotta have him playing a
rock show right before the FBI kills it. And it
was on Paramount Network. Somebody told me we were wrong
time when we gave credit to Netflix for that whatever. Terrible,

(01:25:47):
what a ridiculous series. It was a mess. I mean,
the fucking the Uni Bomber series was problematic too, But
at least they like got a guy who looked like
a dangerous shut in to play the Uni Bomber, Like
I didn't have David Koresh like drop a rap album
right as the FBI comes into his fucking house. He's
just like playing guitar like just I think the only

(01:26:12):
series that I think is worse than Waco in terms
of like this genre of TV is the The Assassination
of Gianni Versa. I haven't even watched that. It was ridiculous.
I thought the O J one was pretty good, was great,
it was really good. That Giannio one is a fucking mess.

(01:26:33):
Darren Cross plays Andrew Knanan. It's a disaster. Yeah. Ross
from Friends really changed my opinion of that cart Ashy
and guy. Whenever he says juice, do you believe it?
Do you believe it? You believe that? Ross from Friends

(01:26:54):
not only calls his friend that, but because he's such
a fan of his friend, he's so excited to get
to call Juice like you hear that in him, like
this this this, it was, it's really heartbreaking. It's a
great I like the the I like that the trial
O J. Simpson solid, that's a great products before we

(01:27:14):
plug getting more document series that we don't have claiming
I'd like to plug the the O J series. I
like it. I watched it, you know, maybe about once
a year when I get sick, when it's time for
you know, Ross from Friends and his love of O. J. Simpson.
It's good TV for when you get sick. Uh. Then

(01:27:39):
I also have a Twitter account that you can find
if you want, and you can listen to my year
and Mensa and the Bechel Cast if you want, And
you can find me on a mountaintop in Idaho with
dozens and dozens of of of young followers the violent
hands of the f d A. I don't, I don't.

(01:28:02):
I'm just not allowing this. Are you trying to protect
me for myself? You're so sam, sir, what I do?
He does not only do the episode on you when
you're killed by the f d A. Clearly, I can't
stop waycoing. I can't stop waycoing. There's some merch. Now,

(01:28:22):
there's some merch. Um. I think we should end the
episode before you do anything else that upside. Is there
any other way you'd like to perjure yourself before pretty
episode work? Yeah, let me give you my feelings on UH.
And that's the episode.