Part Two: Roger Stone: Evil Genius or Sad, Broken Boy?

In our second installment this week, Robert is joined again by Tamer Kattan to continue discussing Roger Stone.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
M It's me Robert with the show Evans Behind the Bastards.
This is the podcast that this is where we talk
about the bad people. Sophie, you look very confused. Uh,
they can't all be what's cracking life? Have us? You
know we're not all They're not all going to be perfect.

(00:21):
I am Robert Evans. This is Behind the Bastards, the
show we tell you everything you don't know about the
very worst people in all the history. My guest for
part two, as with part one is Tamma Kaitany. What
are you doing. I'm doing great. I'm enjoying the conversation.
Are you ready to learn a little bit more about
Roger Stone. I'm ready to learn more and ready to
sleep less easy. Yeah, well that is the Roger Stone guarantee.

(00:42):
So one of the reasons I might believe the claim
that Roger Stone was a major influence on Trump's mind
is the fact that he and Donald Trump really do
have quite a long history of working together. Despite Donald
Trump's two twelve comments that Stone was a stone cold loser,
he was happy to continue to work with the ban
after his reform part the candidacy failed in two thousand.
While he was helping George W. Bush and Florida. Roger

(01:04):
Stone also took time to help Donald Trump with a
new pet project, a grassroots anti gambling campaign. It was
targeted at the Mohawk Nation. The tribe had opened a
casino on their land in New York State and planned
to open another casino in the Catskills. At the time,
Donald Trump owned three casinos in Atlantic City, the Northeast
traditional gambling hup. Clearly, the Mohawk Nation represented a threat

(01:24):
to this earnings of Donald Trump. The ad Stone designed
arm pretty on the edge as far as racism goes.
I've got a clip of one of them here which
will have up on the side behind the Bastards dot com.
It says, in big letters, drug dealing at Monticello or
Monticello whatever, Thomas Jefferson's creepy house. And it's got like
a picture of like a needle and lines of cocaine
and like a baggy of drugs. And then it says, quote,

(01:47):
the St. Regis Mohawk Indian tribe proposes to open a
gambling casino at the Monticello Racetrack in Sullivan County. How
much do you really know about the St. Regis Mohawk Indians.
According to The New York Times, US and Canadian law
enforcement officials broke up the biggest cocaine trafficking ring in
northern New York, operating on the fourteen thousand acres St.
Regis Mohawk Reservation. Twenty six people were arrested. Police also

(02:10):
confiscated nineteen shotguns and handguns. And it goes on like
this saying Indians are criminals, that's the and fear among
their just like the border crossing where they use pictures
of people crossing the border in Spain. Yeah, it just
lies about women being duct taped and stuff. Now, this
this ad, which is pretty offensive, is noted on the
bottom as a project of the New York Institute for

(02:33):
Law and Society. Have you ever heard of the New
York Institute for Law in Society. Nope? Well, it claimed
to be a grassroots organization made up of twelve thousand
pro family donors who just you know, they don't like
gambling and they just don't one any more casinos in
their neighborhood. The reality is that you could probably have
counted the actual number of donors using one hand. Donald
Trump put up virtually all of the money somewhere around

(02:55):
one point five million dollars. Trump signed off on the
ads and the language used in them, and paid the
bills for the private eyes Stone hired to surveill the tribe.
The whole operation was Roger's plan because this organization violated
New York laws on lobbying, because you're not allowed to
pretend that something has a bunch of funders when it's
just one guy who's doing it so that his own

(03:15):
casinos don't have competition. You're not supposed to do that.
So the state investigated. They wound up sitting down with
Roger Stone and interviewing him. Here's the l A Times quote.
Stone told state investigators that he thought the public might
pay attention to a pro family group, but not to Trump,
allowed and longtime critic of Native American gambling, who was
trying to stay off competition for his three casinos in
Atlantic City. You could hide Trump's actions from the public.

(03:38):
The investigators grilled Stone, And you did that over and
over again, yes, Stone answered each time, finally adding nothing
is wrong with that. By the way, there actually was
something wrong with that. Trump and or Stone were fined
two and fifty thousand dollars for breaking the law and
required to pay more than thirty dollars to run statements
in Albany area newspapers. Yeah, it's just nothing for them. Yeah,

(03:59):
this is the the text of the statement. Donald Trump,
Roger Stone, and Thomas Hunter apologize if anyone was misled
concerning the production and funding of the lobbying effort. They
did not apologize for the ads content. Now, over the
next fifteen years there were dozens and probably hundreds of
other stories like that. Roger Stone developed a special hatred
for Elliot Spitzer, Attorney General of New York from thousand

(04:20):
and six and then governor of the state and two
thousand seven. Now, Elliott was born rich like a shocking
number of US politicians, and his father had pumped millions
of dollars into his career. Back in the mid nineties,
right around the time Elliott was elected governor, he threatened
to release records about Republican Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno.
There was basically like a rumor that Bruno had been
using state aircraft to aid in his re election campaign,

(04:41):
and Spitzer was going to like release records that would
prove that or not. And I think Bruno was eventually
found not guilty of that, I'm not sure, but he
was also later found taking a bribe and then got
off on like a technicality, but totally received like four
hundred thousand dollars from some guy anyway. So so Joe Bruno,
Republican Senate majority a leader of New York, did not
like Elliot Spitzer. These guys were at each other's throats,

(05:03):
and in order to get back at his political enemy
and to distract from his own corruption charges, Joe Bruno
called up Roger Stone and offered him twenty thousand dollars
a month to end Elliot Spitzer's career. Roger gleefully dove
into this effort to destroy another person. One June morning
in two thousand seven, Eliot's eighty three year old father, Bernard,
who suffered from Parkinson's, woke up to find this message

(05:25):
on his answering machine. This is a message for Bernard Spitzer.
You will be subpoena to testify before the Senate Committee
on Investigations on your shady campaign loans. You will be
compelled by the Senate Sergeant at Arms. If you resist
the subpoena, you will be arrested and brought to Albany,

(05:46):
And there's not a goddamn thing your phony psycho piece
of ships son can do about it. Bernie, your phony
loans are about to catch up with you. You will
be forced to tell the truth, and the fact that
your son is a pathological liar will be known to all.
So uh yeah, by the way, that is when I

(06:08):
quoted in the first episode Donald Trump calling him a
loser and saying he's a liar and everything, that's why
because actually Donald Trump liked Elliot Spitzer's dad, and it
was like, actually, like Donald Trump was morally offended by
this message. It's just that's a hard line to him,
and it's pretty gnarly to an eighty three year old man. Yeah,

(06:29):
an ill who is the father of the guy you
don't like and attack him that way? Who you got
paid tonight? You know, Like, yeah, he didn't like him,
but it's like his job getting paid to destroy his son,
not his dad. Like, how does that help you deal
with Elliot Spitzer? He's just a gross person. Now Roger
claims that that's not him. We're gonna dig into that

(06:53):
a lot of here. That's as much his suits are him.
That's a pinstriped voice. I will let you know. Um well,
we'll put in a link to that particular audio clip
on the side it. It includes, after the voicemail, several
clips of just Roger talking for yourself. That's fucking Roger Stone.
But like Bernard Spitzer hired a p I who traced
the call back to Roger's apartment and stuff like, it's

(07:15):
it's definitely Roger Stone unless you're Roger Stone. Now, Roger
has always denied making that call. He has in some
recent interviews quately said it does sound a lot like me,
but he blamed it at the time on former stand
up comedian and radio host Randy Cretico. Now we're gonna
be talking about Randy Cretico a little bit later today

(07:36):
to yeah, ready, Credico was like a comedian. He was
on like Leno sometimes he did like improv and he
Stone was basically like, he's so good at doing fake voices.
He pretended to be this guy and this guy it's
clearly him pretending to be me. And Credico was like,
I haven't even talked to Roger in years. Why would
I do this like which? And why would you do

(07:57):
something so mean? And even like a comic it be
one thing to be like, maybe this comedian called up
the governor of New York to leave him a shitty
messages someone else. Okay, I can imagine that happening, like
Obie and Anthony did ship, but his dad like why
and there was no There's no value in it at all.
It's just cruelty. Yeah. Now, Stone and Credico had met

(08:19):
back in two thousand three, and Randy had introduced Roger
to Al Sharpton. Sharpton had hired Stone to help with
his two thousand four presidential run, probably in the hope
that Sharpton's campaign would take votes away from John Kerry.
Roger would later tell the Washington Post quote credit co
became convinced that he should get paid for introducing me
to Sharpton. He refused to do so. Stone continues because
while Credico is a cocaine addict, and Stone knew that

(08:41):
any money he gave to the guy would go quote
up his nose. So Roger Stone leaves this really gross message.
It's obviously him. He blames it on a friend of
his that he hasn't talked to in years, and also
says the guy's a coke addict. Now This may sound
a little bit familiar to Well, but also Roger Stone,
when it came out that he had been putting up

(09:01):
sex ads in his magazine, is like, no, it's my housekeeper.
Like and Trump thrown his own his own son in
law under the bus. No one's sake. No one is safe. Yeah,
it's a gross way to live, it really is. And
the only way you can live that way is if
you have more money than God. You know what kills
me is all my life. I've grown up watching these
Hollywood films and I always just a sense of justice

(09:23):
is what kept me happy. Yeah, believing in things like karma,
believing that things come around. This is a movie where
the bad guy win is winning so far, and like,
why is this movie so long? Why? Why is this
movie my entire life? Is he going to get it? Man?
But I've ever seen a guy in the middle of
a horror movie. It's such a jerky like I can't
wait till he dies because I know it's going to

(09:44):
be something horrific. The Paul Manafort story has been there
for me because just like seeing him denied to wear
a suit recently, and like ill and clearly not healthy,
and just like yeah, die in prison, Paul. I'm violently
angry about a man off it. I spent time in Ukraine, Yeah,
and I saw a lot like Roger Stone's a piece

(10:06):
of ship. But like, maybe this makes the episode weaker,
but no one will ever match the hate that we
do on this show that I have for Paul Manafort. It.
I mean, look how many millions He's literally responsible for
millions of millions of death Yeah, I mean millions of deaths,
made a civil war go on for a decade longer
than Yeah. Yeah, conservatively five or six hundred thousand deaths

(10:27):
in that conflict alone. And for money, Yeah, for money,
for money he didn't need, and he had all the
money you need, you need it already. I could talk
about Paul no, no, no, I mean I get I
get really worked up when we talk about Manafort. But
it's also worth noting that, like there's almost a way
you could say Roger Stone is even grosser, because at
least Paul Manafort was getting involved, was in the trenches
dealing with those people, Roger Stone was just cashing their

(10:47):
checks just like, yeah, I don't give a ship where
this money comes from, So you couldn't say that's grosser.
You could say that's grosser. Maybe it is now. Randy
Credico was going to come back into this story a
little bit later. But what's important right now is that
Bruno fired Stone after this voicemail came out. You know,
but Elliott's bits are wind up going down anyway. It's

(11:09):
kind of debatable as to whether or not it was
Roger's dirty tricks that were responsible of it. There was
a federal wire tap in a New York Times report
about him that revealed he'd been spending tens of thousands
of dollars in high priced prostitutes, and his big thing was,
like he sleeps with prostitutes while wearing his socks. That's
Roger Stone. That's a Stone detail. Roger Stone repeated that
detail to every newspaper in the goddamn world for months.

(11:31):
It's very pet, but it's very He has a really
subtle understanding of how humanity works. Yeah, that's something that like,
even if I was that sort of a person, I
wouldn't think that that detail would matter. He knew that,
it totally did. Yeah, and we don't even know him.
Maybe he made that detail up. Maybe he just knew
of That's something that will stick in their heads. But

(11:51):
I could also see that one being true, because Eliot's
bits are undoubtedly was hanging out with a lot of prostitutes, um,
which I wouldn't have an issue with if he hadn't
been in a turn any general and thus responsible for
prosecuting prostitution in New York. Um. But it's debatable. You'll
hear people say that Stone dropped the dime on Spitzer
to the FBI, and that's why there was the investigation,

(12:13):
and that's where everything came out that he did bus
Spitzer this way. I haven't found hard proof of that.
There was definitely a federal wire tap and a New
York Times report about him. It's entirely possible that Roger
Stone that his main contribution was dropping that story about
the socks and then like he just sort of like, oh,
this is a happy accent. I really don't know, but
it seems pretty likely that he had a significant role

(12:34):
in Spitzer's political downfall. That that does seem likely. Um.
All the tales of Roger Stone's crapulence over the years
prompted The New Yorker to write a profile of him
in two thousand eight. I think that article is the
first place, at least the first major outlet where Roger
started talking about what he called stones rules. These include
such chunks of political wisdom as he who speaks first

(12:58):
loses attack, attack a hack, never defend, admit nothing, deny everything,
launch counter attack. And when I hear the word culture,
I reached from my revolver. Wow. So there was another one.
That there's a lot, there's an endless number of The
one that makes my skin crawl is that hate is
a greater motivator than love. And that's the one that

(13:19):
makes my skin crawl because that is the Trump campaign. Yeah,
and every campaign he's been involved. I mean, that's fascism, man, Like,
that's the core ideological not that I don't think Donald
Trump is an ideological anything, but that is the core
of that political philosophy. Is that hate and fear a
hell of a lot more powerful than love. Yeah, although
Hitler would have said, no, it's the love of the

(13:40):
vulcan or whatever that is that I don't know. I'm
not gonna argue with dead Hitler here. Um, reasonable men
and Hitler can disagree. I'll let you win against dead Hitler.
We all went against death. We do here here we're
still stupid. Suck on that Hitler. Yeah, with your baby mustache,

(14:00):
you freak stupid mustache. I don't know, Like part of
me wonders like, if Hitler hadn't ever been a Hitler,
would that mustache be around, would like we all have
a friend with I think it would be back in
East Hollywood for sure. I feel like people dip their
toes with the Hitler youth haircause they dip their toes.
I mean that that's shaved on the sides, look as
nice it can, it can work, looks nice come back.

(14:23):
But yeah, it's baby mustache, a Jason. It's baby mustache Adjason.
I don't know. It's one of those things where like
at the time it was like this, we're way off topic,
but that was considered like a working man's mustache. You
don't have to groom it or anything. That's an honest
man's mustache. And so that's kind of like what Hitler
was repping to everyone. It's like, I'm just a normal
working joe like you. Ye see. I think that's the

(14:44):
thing that he sees the way like a great athlete
or a great chef or a great artist can see
things that normal people can't see. I think he sees
these subtleties. He sees like a naked man wearing socks
and goes, that's not presidential. Yeah, that's ridiculous. That's that
can hurt him. No one will take him seriously having
this in their mind, I should shave my mustache so

(15:04):
they look at me and say I'm one of them,
Like he's got that kind of I And if we're
looking at what is there some aspect of what I have?
Part of me believes that anyone is prominent, is someone
like Roger Stone has become there is an aspect of
genius at play, just like there is. You have to
Alex Jones. You have to otherwise they become too powerful. Yeah,
you have to allow yourself to have a level of

(15:26):
respect so you can figure out how to deconstruct them.
And I think you've I didn't really figure out when
I was writing this, but I think you've nailed what
it is that his geniuses is recognizing those It's not
the actual tricks he plays. It's knowing how to present
things in a way that leave an indelible image in
people's heads. And I think the Spitzer thing, like really
focusing on those socks that he's wearing all these fucking

(15:46):
these call girls. I think that nails it. I think
that's like what he's good at. Yeah, and that will
actually be talking about some more stuff like that a
little bit later. Uh so. Yeah. Roger Stone starts in
like the early two thousand, is talking about Stones Rules
all the time. Every interview he does, so drop the rules,
you know, this is my rule here, this is my
rule here. This is trying to brand himself. Here's a

(16:08):
quote from The New Yorker. His outfit comported with two
of the rules in his book Stones Rules for War, Politics, Food,
Fashion and Living, which he hopes to publish soon. Never
wear a double breasted suit in a button down collar
and white. I just love the idea that it's It's
like such a Michael Scott thing to do is have
the name of a book that you haven't written, that
you talked to an interview zing. Yeah, Michael Scarn. It's

(16:32):
just like because I started looking up that book and
I was like, oh, he hadn't written that. When this
came out, I was just trying to make it a thing.
I am proud to say on behalf of Roger that
he did eventually right, kind of that book. It wasn't
the same title, but you can buy it, you know,
Stones Rules, How to Win It, Politics, Business and Style
from the Info War store right now. Yeah, it currently

(16:53):
has twelve reviews, so you could really be on the
ground floor. This is the copy or the And he's
covering his weird bird lips. Yeah, he's covering his weird
bird lips like his guy like his hand at his
at his lips or something. Yeah, he's he really I
think he's trying to cover those jowels or something. Interesting
choice that he would cover up half his face. Such
an arrogant man. It shows you he's simultaneously arrogant and insecure.

(17:16):
Nobody who's that obsessed with fashion can be secure in there.
But yeah, I agree, nobody who fucking worries about what
their suspenders are called secure in their physical form. He's
the opposite of the cat that stars in the mirror
that sees a lion. He's a lion that stars in
a mirror and sees a cat, a little baby kitten.
He's so weak, that's what all this peacocking is. Like

(17:37):
an old lady that used to be really sexy and
wears a miniskirt, and you're like, that's not you. This
guys sixty six. And he still calls himself a quote
unquote tough guy. Well, and it's like he also needs
to be attached to some bigger man. He doesn't do
anything on his own because he's he's the kitten. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
whether or not it's Alex Jones or Donald Trump, he's

(17:58):
always attached to somebody exactly. He's the sidekick. Yeah, he's
kind of like a chronic, sleazy sidekick of right wing firebrands. Weird,
like if Darth Vader had a talk show, he'd be
evil Ed McMahon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's about right. Yeah. Now.
That two thousand eight New Yorker interview also revealed that
Roger Stone had in two thousand seven gotten a photo

(18:20):
accurate back tattoo of the head of his hero Richard Nixon.
The article also noted that Stone tan's twelve months a
year and drinks four triple espressos every day. Stone talked
about his recent move to Miami, saying it's a sunny
place for shady people. Yeah, that's a good quote. He's something.
The man could turn a phrase every Now, you really

(18:40):
can't that was That's a good one. It is a
good one. And you know, he was an actor for
a while in high school. No, I didn't even run across.
He's an He was an actor for a short time
in high school. And when he got into politics, he
said this, he said, I then realized that acting in
politics were the same. Oh see, like a lot of

(19:01):
had that experience. Now more than ever with the transparency
the Internet is creating. I mean, fucking Ronald Reagan. Yeah,
it's very true. Road bedtime for Bonzo right to the
Oval office. Let's just make a stop before the rock.
That's all I want. You know what, again, not the
worst case scenario anymore. Sure, I've had not provert. Why not?

(19:24):
Can you smell what the president just cocoon? I can't
take that. Wouldn't it be soothing to just have a
nice person in there? Yeah? I mean maybe the I'm
sure the climate will continue it's unheated acceleration and do
in sustainable like like greenhouse nightmare. But at least the
president could be friendly. I just I think that should
be the minimum requirement. We should have someone whose character

(19:45):
is at a level that we just go, Okay, this
is a decent human being who is at least trying
for the good of the country, like Jimmy Carter and
actually like no one else, but like Jimmy Carter, well
at least he's a nice person, had a great president.
But well, okay, so we are going to uh continue

(20:06):
talking about Roger Stone and get into his uh downfall.
I think it's fair to say downfall, which is going
to be the most satisfying cathartic part of this podcast.
But first, you know what's even more cathartic than the
downfall of a monster? Tell me. I was just thinking
about wonderful services and products that are provided by the

(20:27):
advertisements in front of products we're back listeners. While those
wonderful ads that you were spending your money on were running.
We started to suspect that Roger Stone's greatest crime may

(20:49):
in fact have been appropriating the phrase it's a sunny
place for shady people from someone else. We found a
sunglasses line in a book, although the book came out
after that interviewed it, so it's hard to say Roger
may have stolen that line from someone. So if he's
going to do that research and we'll we'll get back
to you or not if nothing interesting comes up, we
won't get back to you and pretend this didn't happen anyway. So,

(21:11):
in two thousand and eight, while he was doing that interview,
it was not a great time to be a Republican
in politics. You know, Barack Obama had just kind of
bum rushed the McCain campaign. You know, it didn't look
like the Republicans are going to be back in power
for a little while. A white war hero beat a
white war hero. Uh and whatever Sarah Palin is and uh,

(21:34):
yeah it was. It was looking like a rough time
for Republican political operation. And so in that interview, roger
Stone noted, quote, the left has done a better job
of dominating the new space. We're weak on the web.
So a little foreshadowing there. Question about the McCain campaign,
roger Stone advised, quote an Exonian slash and burn campaign
against Barack Obama. Obama and his wife are elitists and

(21:56):
their week they don't share middle class values. Middle class
Americans are proud out of their country, and they are not.
He thinks he's going to sit down with Iran and Hamas.
How do you know he's not gonna shake hands with
a suicide bomber. You can't sit down with people who
don't want to sit down. All he's gonna do is
raise taxes, which is going to give the government more money,
but it's not going to create any jobs. Remember Stone
said politics is not about uniting people, it's about dividing

(22:19):
people and getting your Wow. That's Roger Stone and Paul
Manafort and motherfucking nutshell. You know what. It might be
his own thirst for attention, the attention he never got
from his dad. That's gonna be his downfall because he's
he can't not speak to the press. He's underestimating people. Yeah,

(22:39):
he even though he said he said this plenty of
times that his target audience is not the elite, that
is not the sophisticate. It's not people who who study
or read up on politics. But now he's underestimating their
ability to read things about him and for them to
still be hypnotized. So here he kind of spinning off
of that. I'm not sure if it's him underestimating them

(22:59):
or if say fundamental he can't understand politics is not
about politics to him, it's about the same thing a
game of monopoly is. When you get into a really
into a game of monopoly, and so he is incapable
of realizing, Like, no, Roger, the things that you are
doing have are impacting people's lives and horrible negative ways.
When you give these politicians and they put in these

(23:21):
these shortsighted policies that funk up and you know, lead
to all the terrible things that these different politicians you've
supported over the years have done. Like, when these things
impact people's lives, they get angry and then they hear
you talking about like dividing people and they're like, I
can't talk to half my family. We're all screaming at
each other, and like, you can't understand what it's like

(23:42):
to be in that situation because none of this means
that to you. So where the United States of America
And to hear like a campaign manager or a political
strategist for the President of the United States of America
that his tactic was to divide a country whose foundation
was about uniting. Yeah, it's just so heartbreaking. Well, and
it's one of those things you couldn't until recently get

(24:03):
away with. Like you remember when Barack Obama was running
and he made that comment about people clinging to their
guns and their bibles, that was a huge I was
still very much in the right wing media bubble at
that point in time in my life, and that was
a huge issue with people being like and he and
there were there's a good reason to be pissed about
that if you're if you're a Bible leaving Christian, if
you're someone who grew up shooting and has done that
your whole life and live in a place where like, yeah,

(24:25):
that's an offensive thing. And he had he had to
address that ship and any presidential candidate up until would
have had to face consequences for a statement like that.
A guy like Roger Stone has never had to because
he's not a candidate ever, and it's almost never transparent
who he's advising, and so he's never had to be
that careful, which I think we're getting the part of

(24:47):
the story where that bites him in the ass. Yeah. So, uh,
it's worth noting before we move on from the two
thousand and eight that during that election he formed the
group Citizens United Not Timid to oppose Hillary Clinton's presidential
campaign literal acronym KUNT Yeah. Nice guy, Roger. Now in
two two years into Elliott Spitzer's political exile, Roger Stone

(25:09):
struck again after being laid off. He'd apparently found another
set of backers, wealthy Republicans his description, who paid him
to make sure Spitzer's political career stayed dead. And this
is where, you know, after Spitzer was already at this
is where he started talking about the socks like, this
is where he started spreading that man. And he claims
that he was like at an adult club and met
a girl who was friends with a girl who'd worked
with Spitzer, and she told him the story. It's a

(25:31):
it's like I was talking to my prostitute friend and
she said, this is how silly. And this is two
years after Spitzer's out as governor, because he's already been disgraced. Yeah,
so unbelievable. Yeah, Anyway, Roger Stone seems to have grown
less cautious and careful in his golden years. Maybe it's
the corrupting influence of social media, but over the last
decade he's racked up a pretty horrifying compilation of sexist remarks.

(25:54):
Here's media Matters. Stone tweeted that New York Times columnist
Gail Collins is an elitist cunt. MSNBC host Rachel Maddow
is Rachel the muff diver Fox News is Megan Kelly
has a nice set of cans, and Representative deVie Wasserman
Schultz is a jap acronym for Jewish American princess. He
thought that was going to be one kind of racist,
but with another who is every man's first wife. He

(26:16):
also tweeted die bitch at former New York Times executive
editor Jill Abramson and said he would kill himself if
he was married to screechy and chill Carly Fiorina. The
Sun Sentinel also reported that Stone called Florida politician Barbara
Stern a self important nasty kunt on Twitter. So lest
I leave the impression that Roger's bigotry is limited to women,
Here's a bunch of racist stuff, he said. Stone's tweets

(26:39):
include attacks like stupid negro, fat negro, arrogant, know at
all Negro, uncle, Tom man dingo, and house negro. Stone
tweeted that commenter Roland Martin is a stupid negro and
a fat negro, commentator Herman Kane is a man dingo,
and former Representative Alan West is an arrogant, no at
all negro. He also tweeted that commentator Alsh Arpton, as

(27:00):
a professional Negro who likes Fried Chicken, asked if former
Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson was an Uncle Tom and
referred to himself as an inward with a Nixon tattoo.
He did not use the phrase in word. It was
an uncomfortable paragraph to state. But this is all stuff
roger Stone said, mostly about Republicans. He's just the reed him. Yeah,

(27:24):
they reject the mainstream instead. Yeah, mainstream Republicans rejected him.
And he's a tagging. He's he's a hurt man. Yeah,
he's a he's a hurt man. And uh. In two
thousand fourteen, he got his chance to push some pain
back out into the world. That is the year when
Donald Trump began to execute his campaign run for president. Now,

(27:45):
roger Stone was reportedly Donald Trump's number one consultant for
the early stages of his bid. According to Joshua Green,
the author of Devil's Bargain, a book about the election, quote,
inside Trump's circle, the power of illegal immigration to manipulate
popular sentiment was readily parent and his advisor's brainstormed methods
for keeping their attention andled Boss on message. They needed
a trick an ammonic device. In the summer of two

(28:07):
thous fourteen, they found one that clicked. According to Sam Nunberg,
who worked with Trump during this period, Roger Stone and
I came up with the idea of the wall, and
we talked to Steve Bannon about it. It was to
make sure Trump talked about immigration. Initially, Trump seemed indifferent
to the idea, but in January two fifteen, he tried
it out at the Iowa Freedom Summit, a presidential cattle
call put on by David Bossey's group Citizens United. One

(28:28):
of his pledges was I will build a wall, and
the place just went nuts. That's what you're talking about.
It's like with the socks. Roger knows that's some little
stick in people's exactly. You gotta drive that. I think
that is his major contribution. That's why even when he's fired,
people keep him so. Roger Stone stole his catchphrase about

(28:49):
Florida from a nineteen forty one novel, oh M Summerset
man or mong And I don't know how to pronounce it,
but I've seen that name before. Yet another crime uncovered.
You shady son of a bit. You know what's funny too,
This is almost like when you go to jail and
you don't want anybody to mess with you, so you
just throw human poop on you and everyone's scared to

(29:12):
touch you. I think he plays so dirty and so
gross that people are like, I know he's doing something legal,
but I don't want to fight with him because he
fights like a homeless person. Yeah, he's gonna bite and
scratch and stab, and he's it's it's so bizarre, how
broken this guy. I didn't think during this conversation I
would actually feel sorry for this guy, but that's what

(29:33):
I do. There's a deep core of sadness too. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it becomes clear the more you dig into, like what
he's done his whole life. I think that's the justice.
He wants us to think he's strong, even calls himself
a bodybuilder and and tattoos a man's face on his
back that he thinks it's strong. And really he's just
this insecure, weak, broken, broken little boy. Yeah. They all

(29:57):
are at something. Yeah yeah. Now, Stone's time with the
Trump campaign did not last all that long. In August
two fifteen, after a performance in one of the Republican
primary debates that was wrongly considered to be disastrous for
the Trump campaign. You remember that, Yeah, Roger quit or
was fired. Roger claims he quit. At least Trump says

(30:18):
that he fired Roger, and Roger says that he quit
and basically fired Trump from anyway, It's who knows. He
was getting too much airtime for Trump's taste. It wasn't
that the hypothesis that might be part of it. And
it might also be that after that, Roger also thought
that things were going badly with the campaign and didn't
want to be attached to it anymore because it looked

(30:39):
bad back then. For nobody was guessing. Republicans were screaming
get Trump out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of people
were angry, so that may have been why that happened.
He was trying to like anyway, this was not the
end of the Stone Trump relationship, though, according to one
version of events, at least Roger Stone was responsible for
hooking Donald Trump up with Paul Manaford, who at that
point lived in a Trump Tower but did not actually

(31:01):
know Donald well. Some people say that Stone is the
guy who pushed Manafort on Trump basically in order to
give himself an end with the campaign that he'd probably
been fired from. If true, this would be an appropriate
reversal of Roger's agreement to act as Manafort's proxy and
the Young Republicans so many years before. It's a nice
little bit of symmetry, and it would be nice if
the only person either of them is capable of doing

(31:23):
a single altruistic thing for is the other. If like
the one nice thing Paul Manaford every did was for
Roger Stone and vice versa. Like it's funny, you know,
I think when Manafort got hired, I think in the
documentary it was Stone who quoted his quote when Manafort
got hired, was back in the saddle again. Yeah, like
I'm back. He knew that was his way back into

(31:43):
the campaign. Yeah. And it does seem like and we'll
see how things go now, but it seems like for
a while the two were pretty good at being solid
with each other. You know, the backstab a lot of
other people, but they were usually on the same side
of things. Um, when they were both involved in the
same thing. Some of that maybe that man of for
it was really more overseas you know, after like the
eighties particularly, But it's like an episode of Survivor, but

(32:05):
in d c Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the
union at everybody else, Yeah, just Roger Stone and Paul
Manaford against the world. The only smart member of that
group in the long term turned out to be Black
who has just got rich and decided not to commit
more cries. Oh boy. Now, most of what we are

(32:27):
going to talk about from here on out Roger Stone's
relationship with Wiki Leaks and the possibly criminal behavior he
engaged in on behalf of the Trump campaign. All of
this is very controversial. We don't know exactly what happened yet,
because obviously the Muller reports not out. There are competing
versions of events and competing suspicions of how things went down.
One thing that is crystal clear about this time is

(32:47):
that Roger Stone was instrumental in bringing Alex Jones and
Donald Trump together, which again that's why I brought up
the stuff about conspiracies earlier. He's always had that thing,
and starting about two and thirteen, he and Alex Jones
start being buddies and eventually becomes like he's an Info
Wars employee for like the last three years, so he's
he's like hosting a show, he's a reporter there he's
making probably grand a month, and I do want to

(33:10):
I want to plug quickly here. Knowledge Fight, the podcast
that talks about Alex Jones shows, just did a fantastic
episode on all of this. Yeah, if you go to
Knowledge Fights website and Knowledge Fight, or just look him
up on on Google. Knowledge Fight the January nineteen episode,
they're going to do a lot more granular detail about
this than we're going to because we're kind of covering

(33:31):
his whole life. They focus more on his shadiness with
wiki leaks. It's great. I really recommend it. But yeah,
So it's unclear win exactly Alex and Roger became friends,
but it's very clear that Roger was the reason that
Donald Trump sort of got keyed into the fact that
info Wars existed at all. I don't think I don't
think Donald Trump was listening to a lot of info

(33:52):
Wars in the nineties or whenever. Now. In December two fifteen,
Donald Trump showed up on info Wars and praised Alex
Jones as having an amazed in reputation. As the two
thousand and sixteen election picked up, steam Stone became a
more frequent guest on Info Wars. On August four, two
thousand sixteen, he showed up as a guest on the
Info Wars radio show. At this point, Alex Jones was

(34:12):
telling his listeners that Hillary Clinton was about to resign
as a presidential candidate under the shame of a massive
criminal indictment. Now, at this point, a number of hacked
DNC emails had already been released via wiki leaks. Stone
claimed on air on August four to know about the
upcoming release of more hacked DNC emails on wiki leaks.
He also claimed to have spoken with Donald Trump on
August three. More recent releases as part of the Mueller

(34:34):
investigation have shown that on the fourth, the same day
Stone was on Info Wars, he emailed Trump advisor Sam
Nunberg and told him he'd had dinner with Julian Assange
the night before, which, if you're keeping track, would be
the same day he claimed to have met with Trump.
So when we talk about evidence of collusion, there is
some definitely speaking of collusion. This podcast colludes with a

(34:58):
number of fantastic sponsors that helped keep the lights on
and allow us to do this show. So please collude
with us. You would bringing you this information By colluding
with capitalism to purchase products. All right, we're back and

(35:20):
uh we are talking about Roger Stone in the election. Now.
Over the course of two sixteen, Roger Stone repeatedly played
the role of hype man for Wiki leaks release of
Democratic campaign documents as well as Clinton advisor John Podesta's emails.
On Honest one, he tweeted, trust me, it will soon
be time in the barrel hashtag crooked Hillary. Shortly thereafter,

(35:40):
Wiki Leaks published a cash of John Podesta's leaked emails.
Roger frequently spoke on info Wars and wrote articles on
bright Bart, poo pooing the idea that Russia had anything
to do with all these hacks and pushing the narrative
that Goose offer two point oh the person behind the
DNC hacks was an independent activist, a hero in Stone's telling,
and not an agent of the Russian government. Now. On
election night two sixteen, Roger Stone celebrated with his good

(36:03):
buddy Alex Jones. The two drank champagne and saluted the
dawn of a brave new era. But for Roger and
probably for Alex, to the end of the fun times
was finally nigh. Donald Trump's upset victory got a lot
of people to start looking much more closely on whether
or not there had been any collusion with Wiki leaks
or the Russian government within the Trump campaign. It quickly
became apparent that Goosefer two point oh was in fact

(36:25):
a Russian operative. He fucked up and gave investigators the
digital equivalent of DNA evidence that he was a spy,
and of course, later leaked chat logs revealed that Roger
Stone had been communicating with him the same thing happened
with Wiki Leaks. It's again still a little bit unclear
exactly how all of this maps out. It seems like
what happened is Roger Stone was communicating with a guy

(36:47):
named Jerome and Corsi, who was one of the major
origin points for like the Berther bullshit myth thing and
who also had connections with wiki leaks, and that was
his go between, and he was sort of working directly
with wiki leaks that way, and he definitely there's also
been reports that he was sort of selling himself to
the Trump campaign since he had been kicked out as
an advisor as a liaison to Wiki leaks, and was

(37:08):
coordinating with the campaign, probably with Steve Bannon. That's what
it looks like was happening, although again it's not exactly known,
so it looks like, yeah, Roger Stone was working directly
with Jerome Corsi as well as communicating with Wiki Leaks
one on one and communicating with Goose for two point
oh in order to sort of coordinate the release of
leaked documents with, you know, the presidential campaign to hurt

(37:29):
Hillary Clinton. Now, when all of this became the biggest
news story in the country, which has been for more
or less the last two years, Roger suddenly started claiming
that he had not in fact had direct contact with
Wiki Leaks or Assance, which, of course multiple times during
the election he had talked about on like radio shows
and podcasts talking with Wiki leaks and stuff, but he

(37:50):
had not been consistent about this. But he suddenly started
lying once the Mueller investigation kicked up, uh, and began
claiming that rather than talking directly with wick leagues, you're
communicating and including like through with Jerome Corsi. His contact
with Wiki Leaks, he hadn't been including with him directly.
They just had a friend in common, and Stone claimed
that that friend was Randy Cretico. Now, which again is

(38:14):
the exact same thing he did when he got caught
the last time he did something. These characters come back
around now. Stone testified to the House Intelligence Committee in
two thousands seventeen that this was the case, and the
recent indictment handed down by Bob Mueller makes it clear
that this was yet another lie. Stone was charged with
witness tampering for telling Credico things like Stone Wallet plead

(38:35):
the fifth anything to save the plan. That's a Richard
Nixon quote, by the way, So when you basically Stone
lies and says that Credico is his source to Wiki leaks,
and he's telling Credico, keep this lie going when you
get in front of the House Intelligence Committee, and his
way to tell him to commit this federal crime is
to send him a quote of Nixon telling someone to

(38:58):
commit a federal crime. It was one of the things
that Nixon got caught doing and is why he got impeached.
It's really funny because he also always says history is prologue. Yeah,
Shakespeare pas passed his prologue. And in the tempest in
the Shakespeare speech, when the guy was saying the character
was saying that I remember the character. But when he
was saying that it was a way to excuse murder.

(39:20):
M hm. This freaking guy, like his code words are
like so easy to decipher. Yeah, his coword. And this
is literally another guy committing the same crime he's committing exactly,
Like he's such a roger don't use that. Don't commit
crimes through what's I This is a different jump that

(39:40):
he's made though than the past. Yeah, and this is
a lot dumber in the past. He also said things
like if you turned over anything to the FBI, you're
a fool. He threatened Credit cost service dog Bianca, saying
he would take that dog away from you. You are
a rat, a stoolie. You backstab your friends, run your mouth.
My lawyers are dying to rip you to shreds. I'm
so ready, let's get it on. Prepared to die expletive now.

(40:04):
It's worth noting that when questioned about this by Mother Jones,
Roger Stone stated that his words were being taken out
of context, and when he said prepared to die, motherfucker,
he ad meant that. You know, Credico was dealing with cancer.
He's like he should just really bad lives rotching. So
he says something it's even worse, like, Oh, I don't

(40:25):
mean I'm gonna kill him and I mean you guys.
I mean, and I'm going to remind him of that
because I'm a prick, but I'll take his dog. Jesus.
It's so funny too, because at first I went, Okay,
this guy doesn't even like animals, he's a dick. And
then the very next week when the FBI rated his home,
he's like, the upset my wife, the upset my dogs.
He's apparently a dog lover, which you know a lot
of people are. Um, he didn't say I'll kill your dog,

(40:49):
so maybe he was just threatening to abductor man's service animal.
Fair enough. Like, you know what's different now is the
old campaign was all lie by any means necessary. I'll
do whatever I need to do to have this side
of the country win. Now he's like, I don't care
if it's another country. Yeah, that wants as long as
I don't get long as I don't get in trouble.

(41:10):
So before it was like i'll have the conservative side
versus the liberal side. Now it's like i'll have an
enemy of the nation. Yeah. This guy's he's gone from
from a corrupt person to a trader. Yeah, and and
to a trader who, like in the months leading up
to this on info Wars, would regularly urge President Trump
to essentially assume dictatorial powers and shut down the FBI

(41:33):
investigation and stuff. And it's like, that's a line, Roger.
That's it answers the question for a lot of people
that are like for an outsider, Trump really knows how
to play the game. Trump doesn't know how to play
the game. He just knows how to find shady people
in sunny places who know how to play the game.
He knows when to listen. And when you're in real estate,
nobody cares because everyone in the real estate business is

(41:53):
a criminal um and it's fine. We're fine with that
for some reason. Not my real and long beach Susie.
Thanks Susy. Sorry for drying a mustache on your memo
notepad that I got for free. She's strangling a dog
right now. Real estate agents hit us up on Twitter.
Real estate agents, tell us about your favorite crimes that

(42:14):
you've committed. You're all Nazis. You're all Nazis. All real
estate agents are Nazis, is the stance of this podcast. Now,
enough of the claims roger Stone made before Congress were
proven false. That he has been charged with at least
five counts of making false statements during his testimony. And
this is, in fact, other than witness tampering like this,
that's all of the indictment so far have been like

(42:35):
you lied and you threatened to somebody who was going
out like a federal witness, which you can't do. Now.
It appears that the main downfall for roger Stone that
got him busted by the FBI was his unjustified trust
in the program What'sapp. Here's a quote from Ours Technica quote.
He believed that WhatsApp, which he used as a secure

(42:56):
phone line and for messaging, would protect his communications from
the eyes of and instigators forgetting that the people he
was talking to could just show the messages to Mower's
team and a grand jury. He also left an email
trail of his alleged misdeeds, seemingly spanning a mile wide.
After Wiki Leaks released email stolen from the Democratic National
Committee on July two thous and sixteen, quote, a senior
Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone about any

(43:18):
additional releases and what other damaging information Wiki Leaks had
regarding the Clinton campaign. The indictment states in return, Stone
reached out to Multiple Association in an attempt to communicate
with Wiki Leaks and Julian Assange and obtain further Clinton
related emails. On July two thousand sixteen, Stone emailed Corsi.
The subject line was get to Julian Assange. The message read,
get to Julian Assange at Ecuadorian Embassy in London and

(43:40):
get depending Wiki Leaks emails they deal with Foundation allegedly, Really, Jed,
don't leave text evidence of your crimes everywhere, Roger, and
then threatened the people who you have an equal copy
of all of the evidence of your crimes. Don't do that,
you know. And I as a kid once I killed
a cockroach and I left his body there for the

(44:00):
other cockroaches to see. And that's what I want him
to be. Yeah, I want him to be that cockroach.
I want him to be a cautionary tale. I'm glad
he's getting caught. I want him and man afford, I
want a lot of cockroaches strung up on a lot
of walls because I'm worried about that. What they're inspiring,
you know what I mean, That's why they've got to
get and that's why whenever people it's the same reason
like whenever people are like some ninety six year old

(44:22):
Nazi gets found out and they're like trying to extra
out into Germany and people like, well he's nineties six.
I'm like, no, take him to court, let him die
on a plane, make it, make it miserable, make everyone
else know this is what happens when you do crimes
like this, Like, we'll get you eventually. Yeah. Now, this
is the point at which I think we finally get

(44:42):
an answer to the running question for this whole episode.
Is Roger Stone actually a political mastermind and evil genius
or did he just associate himself with a successful people
and do a good job of hyping up his BS contributions.
His behavior in two thousand eighteen was definitely the behavior
of a cornered man, growing increasingly panicked about coming le
will smackdowns. His appearances on Info Wars grew more common.

(45:03):
He would regularly attack the Muller investigation as being part
of a deep state cabal, and frequently begged President Trump
to make use of extreme executive powers to fire Rod
Rosenstein and shut the whole thing down. It also seems
to me, at least, that stones rhetoric grew more apocalyptic
as the noose tightened. Here's a clip from him in
late two thousand eighteen. You will have a spasm of
violence in this country, an insurrection like you've never saved.

(45:26):
No question you think if you go in page like,
the sides are heavily armed, my friend, Yes, absolutely, this
is not nineteen seventy four. They the people will not
stand for impeachment. A politician who votes for it would
be endangering their own life. There will be violence on
both sides. Yeah, it's threatening people. He's threatening an apocalyptic

(45:47):
civil war and saying any politician who voted for it
would have their lives threatened. Yeah, like it's he's sending.
Those are dog whistle messages. He's standing. Threats are threats
not even done. It's a fucking pigs e or thrown
right at like a bunch of I don't know how
to finish that analogy, but you get my point. Most
of Stone's media appearances over the last year seemed to

(46:08):
have been a way for him to advertise his go
fund me legal defense fund. This fund has raised so
far about seventy eight thousand dollars in the month that's
been up. Michael Caputa, a former Trump campaign adviser and
friend of Roger Stone, actually started the campaign. He claims
that Stone has lost everything in the ongoing legal battle.
Politico noted that the month before Stone posted an Instagram

(46:29):
picture of himself on a beach, smoking a cigar and
wearing designer sunglasses, So probably a lie. Like everything else
Rogerstone has ever said. One group at least has stuck
with Roger Stone in the wake of his indictment and arrest,
the Proud Boys. Stone started using them as his personal
security for events in two thousand seventeen and eventually went
through what they call their first degree initiation. He just
enco to Maya was the day to do this, and

(46:50):
their whole initiation is around like claiming that, like, I'm
not going to apologize for creating the world as a
Western man. I don't know. I don't think it's a
coincidence that he picked Senco to Mile. I think they're
anything they can do to be a little bit more racist.
It's really funny. Even even the idea of a white
race is a lie. Yeah, there is no white race.
It was a construct. No such thing. Hang out with

(47:11):
a Russian, hang with an Irishman. It's not the same thing.
And the and the Proud Boys are a little smarter
than talking about the white race. They claimed Western civilization.
That's their catch all, because then you don't have to
all be white, but you can still essentially sta welcome
to them. Then embrace your Middle Eastern side, because that's
what Iran is. Iran is supposed to be the birthplace
of the real white people. That's why it sounds like Arian.

(47:31):
It's Iran. So so get your white loafers out and
your Capri one hundreds. Yeah, and start calling people my
friend if you really want to be the origin of
white oh man, and get way better cooking lamb, way
better at cooking. We cannot cook a goddamn lamb in
this country to save our lives. It's just it's a trick.
It's all a trick. And it's when a powerful white

(47:52):
man tells a poor white man that he's just like him,
it's hypnotizing. Well, that's exactly Roger Stone talks about as
a young man, being like, I'm going to be the
bridge between working class white people and rich white people.
That's exactly what he's always been about. Yeah, so of
course he would like the Proud Boys. One prominent Proud
Boy is currently selling Roger Stone did Nothing Wrong t shirts.

(48:13):
When he was arraigned last Monday, several Proud Boys provided
an escort enchanted their vocal support of the man. We
even't talked much about Roger stones style obsession in this podcast.
I just it's not really funny. Like I read a
bunch of what he wrote. It's just like pretentious stuff
for people who care about suits and whatnot. Which if
that's your thing, that's fine. Everybody's got to have a thing. Um,

(48:33):
But there is a way in which that became a
source of some shot in freuda for me. Starting I
think in the Stone became increasingly enamored with ostentatious outfits,
generally dressing like someone who lives to fight Batman. He
became the Daily Callers men's style correspondent and also writes
a ten best and worst dress list every year, and
most of these columns. Stones header image is a picture
of himself dressed as and wielding a gun like James Bond.

(48:55):
He clearly views himself as a slick, badass political operator
and wants others to see him that way too. That
reputation has been punctured by a long series of dumb mistakes,
many of them in his appearances on info Wars. Mistakes
like claiming exiled Chinese businessmen Guo Wan Gui had been
convicted of financial crimes and donated illegally to Hillary Clinton
and Steve Bannon. None of this was true. Stone and

(49:15):
Info Wars were sued for a hundred million dollars, and
last year Roger Stone was forced to make an on
air public apology for having failed to do proper research.
He's almost seventy. Yeah, that's why I keep reminding myself
the way he behaves. Yeah, he's a grandfather. He is
a grandfather. He's almost seventy. And this is how he acts,
This is how he behaves. This is the philosophy he

(49:36):
has that he's a spy and a badass and uses
all this tough guy language, and really he's the one
who sees himself naked and weak and his bones getting
softer and his muscles starting to sag. He can't beat time, No,
nobody can. Nobody can Patrick Stewart other than Patrick, you know,

(49:58):
he's really nail time hate. Maybe a greater motivator. But
love makes your skin look better when you get older. Yeah, man,
he looks so good. He looks great. Yeah. Now, despite
all of Roger Stone's claims to being a sly badass,
brilliant Nixonian style political operator, Roger Stone has proven to
just be a bad criminal who got lucky for a while.
He's not a badass, He's just bad. In the wake

(50:20):
of his indictment, Roger Stone has whined incessantly about having
roughly as much force used against him in his apprehension
as a small time pot dealer in Texas. Stone complained
that he wasn't called ahead of time to give him
a chance to dress up and look his best for
the cameras. Instead, he was photographed in a simple blue
polo shirt. When he was released later that day, he
had to give his press conference looking like a normal
elderly man and not the penguin. It is a moment

(50:43):
of great schadenfreude for me, and we are going to
in the episode by playing the clip of his press conference.
Love it and arrested it defined schadenfreude. I'm taking pleasure
in the misfortune of others. German like that. Yeah, it's
a great word. You here, Thank you well, thank you.

(51:12):
As I have always said, the only thing worse than
being talked about is not being talked about. Jafter a
two year inquisition, the charges today relate in no way
to rushing collusion, wicky leaks, collaboration, or any under illegal

(51:33):
act and connection for the twixteen campaign. I am falsely
accused of making false statements during my testimony to the
House Intelligence Committee. That is incorrect. Any any error I
made in my testimony would be both immaterial and without intent.

(51:56):
All right, I want that on my iTunes. Yeah, it's
it feels good, Right, it feels good. It's like squeegee
for your soul. So it makes me believe in God
and Santa Claus. Lock him up, Lock him Up sounds
Oh it's so nice. Oh it's like a pizza after
smoking weed. So satisfying. I'm not normally a big fan
of chanting as part of a crowd. That would have

(52:18):
been a fun crowd to chant as part of and
believe me as an Arab in America. The only time,
the only time I like people chanting Usa, Usa, Usa
is during the Olympics. Yeah. Outside of that, I'm like,
you're chanting lock him up at Roger Stone. Man. Oh,
it's so good. It's like emotional bubble wrap, so pleased

(52:40):
to eat it all. Yeah, it does a lead down.
Give me the bread to sop up the sauce. Yeah, yeah,
that tastes good. That tastes good. At the end of
this this gross tale Shotenfreudreud. Yeah, taking pleasure, pleasure in
the misfortune of others. And like great German word word. Yeah,
they're they're really great at making single words for things.

(53:01):
Although this is like the joy of seeing justice. Yeah,
there's a little bit like this is justified the beginning
of it anyway. Yeah, it's the start of a process
of justice that hopefully leads him dying in a cell. Yeah.
I'm a big believer in rehabilitation. But if you're seventy
and doing the ship Roger Stone has been doing for
the last couple of years, I couldn't agree more. Probably
not gonna get rehabbed, be not allowed in society anymore,

(53:26):
save with Paul Manafort. You know, if you're if your
crime is selling drugs or even beating someone, even even
accidentally killing an individual, even killing someone in in the
in the throes of a sudden rage, I believe in
some sort of like rehabilitation for you, but if your
crime is conspiring to thwart the liberty of millions of

(53:48):
people around the world, I don't believe in rehabilitating that.
It's it's a crazy thing to see someone who came
that was like, you know, I came from a dad
that was abusive, and he had PTSD from war, and
I had a drinking problem. He had everything against him.
But I could always look back and say, I understand
the dynamics of abuse, so I understand that he was

(54:09):
abused to and then the guy that bit him was
like a vampire. And then I had to go to
therapy so I could be like one of the vampires
on Twilight, Like there was like, sure there was a cause,
there was an origin, and that's why you're great at baseball.
Yeah exactly. But with him, you just look at this
and I still at the end of it, even if
they're satisfaction, I just go, why it's a sad story?

(54:31):
Is it usually is with these guys? Yah? Yeah, And
there's really like it's a man who I don't think
ever had anything at the center of himself that he
was proud of. So he was proud of his ability
to do things for other people he admired whether and
at first people who didn't know him, like when he's
he's lying about Nixon to so that he can get

(54:53):
you know, his class to vote for JFK. And then
he gradually gets like the first one of these guys
that he works for that he gets any work close
to Richard Nixon. He just loves the rest of his
life because Nixon spent time with him, Like he wasn't
a part of Nixon's staff, but they hung out together
and stuff, and so I really do you see he
doesn't say a lot about it other than like fawning
praise for Nition, But you see pictures of Nixon and

(55:14):
Roger Stone, and he very much has that doting son
looking and even his office is like like a shrine,
shrine to Richard Nixon Nixon. It's so crazy. It would
even be one thing like a guy like L B. J.
Who like killed a lot of people in Vietnam. But
you could also be like, well, but then there's the
Civil Rights Act, and like, I can see how someone

(55:35):
could like, even with this guy's really problematic legacy, I
could see how someone who worked for him could be
still loyal to that memory Nixon and and some of
the stuff and some of the stuff he kept was
like neg anti Nixon stuff. That shows he just doesn't
care about he just bad about. Yeah, he just wants
attention because again his parents whenever. I don't know, there's

(55:57):
always a thin line in this show between trying to
give it a tail history of these people in psychoanalyzing them.
You can't avoid it entirely though, when you read quotes
like how Roger describes his childhood and then just see
what his adult life is. I mean, his life couldn't
have been easy. He was a child with doll hair.
Yeah that is that is a child bodybuilder with a
Nixon child. I just imagine a shrunk version of him.

(56:24):
That's it. He's always been that guy. He was always
had that tattoo, and I was back even he was breastfeeding.
You know, one of the great forever untold stories of
history will be the sheer impact and damage that insecure
male egos have had in our society, even in places
where you wouldn't expect it. You wouldn't expect Dwight D.
Eisenhower didn't give off a lot of impulses of being
an insecure man. But then you see what he was

(56:45):
doodling when we overthrew Guatemala, when he heard that, like
he'd successfully instituted a coup in this country, and he
drew a picture of himself young and swollen, like muscular,
next to a battleship flexing, and it's like, yeah, dude,
you had some issues. That's not normal, that's weird. Our
whole lives. We hear how how hard it is for
women that they lose their beauty, but we don't talk

(57:06):
about fading power. Yeah, you know, like I grew up
in a really rough neighborhood. Nice to be a scary
looking guy, and I'm sleeved in tattoos, But I'm a
nicer person now and I go to go to therapy
the But the one thing I miss is when I
walked down the street, that people move away from me
because you're like, you're big and muscular and stuff, And
there's something about that. As much as I hated who
I was back then, I missed that feeling. Yeah, you know,

(57:28):
human pit bull. There's not a lot of training in
our society for young men to get used to the
fact that they will someday not have the kind of
physical power they had. This is something I really admired
my grand before. My grandpa was a really big guy
six ft five, six ft six something like that, and
he was he was military most of his life, fought
in Korea. Was like a very big, very imposing man.

(57:50):
But the last ten or fifteen years of his life,
he was just completely debilitated with Parkinson's, couldn't really move.
But I never got never, ever, ever, of all the
of the emotions that I saw from him, none of
them was anger. None of them was like lashing out
at people over the fact that I could tell he
was frustrated obviously not being able to control his body anymore.
Um And I don't think a guy like Roger Stone

(58:13):
or a guy like Dwight D. Eisenhower or whatever, I
don't think. I don't think they got that at any point,
that attitude of like, Okay, you're going to be able
to control the world around you less as you get older,
because that's just life. And that's why we have society
and civilization. We all work together to take care of
each other because when we get weaker, we need more help.
You know. They don't get that, And that's where libertarians

(58:35):
come from the dangerous language in our society. This is
a friend of mine reminded me the other night, like
boys don't cry? Is it phrase? It turns us in
a men that don't talk. It's like women grow up
in possible physical standards, but really men grow up with
impossible emotional ones. Yeah. And when something bad happens a
little boy, if he's not able to talk, can he
turn into something evil and dark and twisted and upside down?

(58:56):
If the alternative which is admitting like weakness and uh
in pain and a need for help? If that is
literally unthinkable because of the society he's been raised in,
Like yeah, what else does he do but like get violent? Yeah? Yeah,
this is like a worldwide problem. I Agreeviously, I agree.

(59:17):
I went to college in Sweden and I saw a
movie there. It was Judge dread Ship, the original, the original.
I was going to college so its class wasn't starting
for three weeks, so we went to see Jack Dread
and it was rated X and I was like, alone's
making porn. So then I wasn't going to watch it,
but a bunch of people were going in. I'm like, screwed,
I'll go in. I go regular movie. Two weeks later,

(59:39):
I see a movie with a Swedish friend, a Swedish
movie rated PG, and his nephews next to us, and
a guy pulls down his pants and his penises out
there and he's shaking it around and and I'm in shock,
and the little kids just eating Swedish Swedish fish. You know,
it's just a penis, just a penis. And then my
friend goes, oh, I forgot you from America. Yeah, you
guys rate your movies by sex. We rate our movies
by violence. Yeah, And I just felt like a monkey. No.

(01:00:02):
And it's it makes more sense, Yeah, it really does.
And there's a lot of I mean, we could, we could,
we could go down this rabbit hole for forever. So
we're well off. I mean, don't apologize because it's it's
a subject that's never not interesting to me. Um. You know,
it's the difference between uh as a little kid, I
I started shooting guns when I was six or seven.

(01:00:23):
My uncle came over and he taught me how to shoot,
and we we we did some hunting and stuff like that.
And I don't think that's unhealthy, but I think playing
with guns, the way I played with guns as a
little kid was unhealthy. I think that's bad for you.
I think that like fetishization of violence and power and
then coming into a world and I think there's this
I think video games give it to you too, where
you get used to in this one little aspect of

(01:00:45):
your life, this fantasy aspect, having all this control and
being able to be the arbiter of who lives and
dies and all this stuff, and you go into the
real world where you have none of that control because
it's the world and there's other people doing their own
things and you can't just be buying. That's where the
all right comes from. That like dichotomy, that like mental disconnect.
I think you're right. I think people masturbate to the

(01:01:05):
alt right the way people who don't have sex masturbate
to porn stars. Yeah, they're behaving in a way and
doing things that I can't do, but I wish I can. Yeah. Yeah,
it's that. That's why these guys focus on Nazis or whatever.
Who just guy got rid of all the people they
don't like, because all these little kids in their rooms
just have a bunch of hate for people who won't
go away, the way their enemies and the video game.

(01:01:25):
Well yeah, And I guess that's why Roger Stone embraced
the Proud Boys and the Alt Rights so definitively, because
at the end of the day, he didn't have video
games to grow up with. But he is that guy.
He is that guy wearing fancy suits and calling his
suspenders braces so that he can be better than everybody
and control his world more. We brought it back around.

(01:01:47):
We brought it back around. You're not You're a poet
to me. You want to plug your plug doubles. Sure,
If you're looking for a live comedy with a political bent,
you could find all my live shows in and around
l A and around the country at tamer Kittan dot com.
T A m e r k A t t a
n my podcast as they tried to bury us UM.

(01:02:08):
Every week we have a new American origin story from
a different immigrant. And I'm tamer Cat on all things
social media and you can find me on the twitts,
the tweet at I right, okay, that's me on the
on the twarts. And you can find this podcast on
the internet at Behind the Bastards dot com. You can
find us on the social meds at at Bastards pod.
You can buy a shirt. You can buy a cut

(01:02:30):
very cool shirts by thank You very Great Shirts. You
can buy scale models of the spaceship from Aliens, all
from t public dot com, all branded with our don't
tell James Cameron that it's very illegal, but for a
limited time, until we get a takedown request, we will
be selling all of that stuff. James Cameron has sex
in bikinies really well, Roger Stone said it. Oh well,

(01:02:51):
I mean then it's gotta be true. It's gotta be true. Well,
let's all leave you guys on that, on that absolutely
true note from from our but you Roger Stone m