July 30, 2025 • 61 mins
One of my favorites from past summer!
Today on the show we continue hot shark summer with shark biologist and author of the book, "Sharks Don't Sink," Jasmin Graham!
Guest: Jasmin Graham
Footnotes: Minorities in Shark Science website: https://www.misselasmo.org/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Creature Future production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host
of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,
and today on this show, we are continuing hout Sharks
Summer with a special guest who is a shark biologist
and expert, and we are going to learn a lot
(00:28):
about sharks about life. So welcome to the show. The
co founder of Minorities in Shark Sciences and author of
the new autobiographical book Sharks Don't Sink, Jasmine Graham.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome, Hello, Thanks for having me. So.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I really love how your book combines both science and
your life story. So like you weave together tales of
field research, amazing sharks, science and facts, and.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Your own experience, your life story.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So for this interview, I definitely want to talk about
both things.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
So first of all, I.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Mean, I think I and probably all of my listeners
love sharks, so there's no need to, you know, try
to justify why one would love sharks. But what did
draw you to sharks as a focus of research.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, I always was interested in the ocean.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I grew up fishing with my dad and so the
ocean was always a big part of my life. And
then I found out in high school you could get
paid to study fish, and I was like, that sounds
like the coolest job ever. I guess I'll do that,
And so I went to college for marine biology. And
I tried a lot of different things while I was
(01:52):
in college, but what stuck was sharks. And how I
first got introduced to sharks was a total accident. That's
what I call a scientific meat cute, where I had
this moment where I was walking down the hallway and
turned a corner and literally ran into a professor.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I thought, you're going to study sharks.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So you ran into a shark.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
In a shark in a hallway, and not shark.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
In a hallway.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
The elevator doors are closing and a shark sticks a
fin in and lets you in.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
I guess in a way, I did run into a
shark because I ran into doctor Gavin Taylor. Papers went flying,
and then I started picking them up and I started
seeing all of these images of these really cool CT
scans of sharks, and I was like, whoa, these are awesome.
And I was asking him about it, and he was
(02:45):
telling me about his research and how he is studying
how sharks evolve and their adaptations and kind of just
talking about how old they are and all of these
cool things that he's learning about them, trying to build
this tree of life of sharks, and I was just
kind of like, that sounds super awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I want to do that.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
And so he reached out to me a couple of
months later and said, I actually have some funding and
an opening in my lab for an undergraduate researcher, and
so then I started working with him with sharks, and
that's just where I stayed because honestly, sharks are super cool.
(03:27):
Just from seeing a couple of CT scans and listening
to this man geek out about sharks for five minutes
in the hallway, I fell in love.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I do not blame you. Sharks are incredibly cool. Can
you talk a little bit about your favorite shark and
what it means to you.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
So my favorite shark is the bonnethead shark, and I
love them for several reasons. One because it's the first
shark species that I got to work with in a
scientific setting, so that was pretty cool. Two, they're just
super cute. There are multiple bonnet head pictures in the book.
(04:07):
Because I just need people to know how cute they are.
They look like they're wearing little tiny hats. They're often
swimming around kind of in a very confused way, and
they're just adorable. And the third reason is they were
the first shark discovered to be omnivorous.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
So they actually eat plants and animals.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Actually, sea grass makes up forty to sixty percent of
their diet, and so I think it's really cool that
there's a shark out there that actually eats more plants.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Than animals in some situations.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
That is really cool. That sounds like they're the bears
of the sea. How big are bonnet sharks.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
They're very small. They're like they max out between three
and four feet.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Oh, babies, they're small, the little baby guys.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I of all the animals that I know that you
can't do this, but I do want to, like pick
up a shark in my arms and hold it like
a baby, because their faces to me, are so cute,
the little, the little just the little downturned mouths, the
big eyes. I have a I have a hard time
(05:23):
understanding why people don't find them cute.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Honestly, Yeah, I mean thresher sharks. Their faces are so cute.
They just look alarmed all the time. I know, they
just look frightened.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I want to carry one around in a baby born
if that wasn't, you know, incredibly harmful to the shark.
But yeah, that's so interesting, And you have you done
research on bonnet sharks.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I have. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
So for my undergraduate research, I focused on a small
all part of the tree of Life project for sharks
and rays, and I focus specifically on the hammerhead family.
So I was looking at all ten speechies of hammerheads,
which a lot of people don't know that there are
ten species of hammerheads. Sometimes people think that hammerheads are
(06:15):
just like one species.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
One guy, one shark that's got like an actual hammer.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
So I studied all of them, bonnettheads included. And then
I got to co advise a master student who studied
bonnetead sharks and their head shapes, and I talk about
that a lot in the book. And the head shapes
are super cool for bonnet heeads because they exhibit what's
(06:46):
called sexual dimorphism, which is where males and females look different.
And that's super cool that their heads look different if
you're a male versus a female bonnetead shark because that's
super weird. What a weird thing that is different between
males and females, But it.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Is imagine if for for humans, if women were going
around with triangle heads and men were going around with
square heads. I don't know, we'd probably find whole new
ways to make society sexist based on like, well, you know,
with the triangle head, you know, obviously you can't be president.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
One thing also in the book that is really interesting,
but also you know, kind of I think painful, is
like discussing the challenges that you face in marine biology,
particularly as a black woman. Can you talk a little
bit about how you approached these challenges and what like
what they were, what you face, which you know, really
(07:51):
likely the only challenges in research should be you know, hey,
are my you know, notes getting wet because I'm on
a boat. But no, there's a lot of actual social
challenges that you faced.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah. Science is interesting because people feel like science should
be a place where we don't have human problems, because
people see scientists as these like objective beings that don't
have any bias and all of these things.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
But that's not true. Scientists are people just like anyone else,
and so therefore science has some society issues creep into it,
and so a lot of those issues come up in
science settings when it's people interacting with other people. And
(08:40):
so that is something that I've found to be a challenge,
mostly in the sense of people look at me and
they don't expect me to be a scientist, and so
therefore there's this, oh, you need to prove yourself because
we don't feel like you belong here because you don't
look like scientists. I've actually had a lot of people
(09:02):
say that, like, oh, you know, it looks like a scientist,
and then I asked the question, what does a scientist
look like, right, and then they get very uncomfortable they
should yeah, yes, that is.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
My bias creeping out.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
And so I think that that is, in and of itself,
something where you have this sort of doubt when you
come into a room, or when you submit a paper,
or when you're submitting a grant proposal, that people have
these preconceived notions about what a scientist is and what
(09:36):
a scientist looks like, and what they do and don't do.
And so that's a challenge. And then there's more egregious things,
of course, because people sometimes are terrible, But a lot
of it is people that the heart I would say
the hardest thing is people that believe that they don't
(09:59):
have bias, and then they walk around like I had
a talking about yeah, that's why I said that, like
it I would have assumed that anybody was a custodian.
I'm like, would you know, or like they'll be like, oh,
it's just because you're young, is it. Yeah, And so
(10:22):
that's that's the harder thing to deal with because whenever
you have somebody that's like blatantly and openly causic issues,
then it's a little easier to pinpoint. But there's often
a lot of times where people, you know, say well,
I don't think they meant it like that, or maybe
you took it the wrong way or that other stuff
(10:42):
where it's sort of like, I don't believe that this
is actually a thing that is happening a lot.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I don't believe that bias played into this.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
It's like a lot of defensiveness. So not only is
it awkward or uncomfortable because it's like, hey, you just
kind of assume something of aut me and that it's
also like, oh, now you have to deal with someone
being really defensive like oh no, no, no, I'm not sexist,
I'm not racist, you know.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, it's a big thing. And then
there's also other issues with marine science in particular because
a lot of times you are on boats or in
very remote locations and you're stuck with the same people
for a long amount of time.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
And it's not like.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
A normal nine to five where you're like, cool, I
only have to deal with this for eight hours and
then I walk away. I mean, sometimes it's weeks of
you have to spend time with these people.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
For a really long time.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
There's all sorts of weird power dynamics at play where
sometimes people don't feel comfortable speaking out about things, especially
things like sexual harassment and stuff like that. Especially if
you are a PSI in a position of less power
and you would have to challenge.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Some body that has more power than you. It creates
really awkward situations.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, I mean, I imagine that is especially profound on
a boat. Like in academia, it's it's a huge problem.
And then you take all of these social complexities and
problems of academia and then you put it on like
a platform that is floating in the middle of the
ocean that seems really challenging.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Do you have any advice that you would give young
people who are really interested in marine biology but they
are concerned about these things, like you know, maybe they're
a minority, maybe they are worried that the field is
going to be really really challenging because of these assumptions
that like people make about what a scientist should be.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
I mean what I've always done is I always remind
myself that there are people who want help, and there
are people who can be really good allies and friends
in the field, And if you surround yourself with those people,
then you have this sort of buffer where hopefully you
(13:14):
don't have to be the one to put yourself at
risk to say something to somebody that has more power
than you or something like that, because you have other
people in your corner that will speak out on your behalf.
And those people do exist, and they are very prominent,
and they usually make themselves very clear. They're very easy
(13:34):
to spot speacon of light where you're like, ah, yes,
you seem awesome, let's hang out. I want you in
my circle, and like people that just hype you up
because whenever you are constantly getting these like little tiny
knock downs. It's really helpful to have someone that's constantly
(13:55):
boosting you up so that you know you can keep
your spirits high, keep your confidence up. I think the
best way to fight imposter syndrome is to have people
constantly tell you that you belong here and you're doing
a great job. And having hype people having a height
spore really helpful. The other thing I think is whenever
(14:17):
people whatever, people maliciously try to make other people seem small,
the best response is to be bigger and take up
more space because they're trying to nudge you out, and
so the best defense is offense to just be bigger,
(14:38):
be bolder, like, don't shrink away. I think sometimes people
when they come into a space and they feel like
they aren't being valued or they're worried about being the
only person like them and having this sort of Oh,
I have to keep proving myself over and over and
over again.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Whenever I get in.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Those situations, just walk in with all of the authority
in the world, even if I even if I'm in
my head kind of.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Like ah, I feel like I am an impostor.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Facing I'm like, yeah, I'm Jasmine Graham and I'm a
shark site because I'm an expert in this field and
I know what I'm talking about and everything is great.
And then if anyone challenges that, I can say, well,
you're wrong, yeah, because I do belong here. And even
if you just say it, you say it enough, other
(15:31):
people tell you enough, and then you feel it. You
feel like you can walk into situations with your head
held high and take up space. And the most important
thing is to not let people like that win. And
you let them win whenever you get small. So you
gotta stand your stand your ground.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I love. That's really really good advice.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I mean, that's that's good advice, and probably everywhere in
I've not just in science, but yeah, I mean I do.
I can't help but always try to relate sort of
be like human psychology back to back to animals, because
that's what this show is. I don't necessarily know enough
about shark behavior to say that sharks would also do this,
(16:18):
but like really like when they are being threatened or
being intimidated, really trying to kind of like say like no, no, no,
I am I am coming. I am a shark, and
I'm tough and I'm cool and like, don't bother me,
even though inside sharks might actually be quite scared.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Yeah, I mean a lot of animals do this. Some
animals do this quite literally. I mean porcupines put up
their spines, puffer fish puff up. There's like snakes swelled,
like there's this natural like something is threatening me.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Be bigger.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
It's sort of a natural instinct of animals like well,
if I'm bigger, then maybe they'll think to us about
messing with me. And so having that attitude of.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
People love to punch down, you know.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Like you know, people are always going after people that
they feel like they can push around, and as soon
as you stand your grounds, they're like, oh, this is not.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
A person to be trifled with. Let me go away.
And that's what happens in the animal kingdom.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Is no animal wants to hunt prey that's going to
fight back.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, Like that is not what they want to do.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
If they have a choice between like a sleeping rat
and a king cobra, they're going to go for the rat.
I'm like, I don't want to find a king cobra.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I might lose.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
So yeah, just being big and helping people see like oh,
you think you're about to punch down, but really you're
punching up yea, And they're like.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Ah, yeah, maybe think I want to do that? Yeah yeah,
maybe maybe.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Maybe think twice about eating that pufferfish that now is
a big spiky balloon. You mentioned earlier that the bonnehead
sharks like swim around like they don't know where they're
they're going.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Can you expand on that?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Why Why do they swim around in sort of this
awkward way.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
That's a really good question. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Some sharks are just There are some sharks that are
really like, I'm an excellent navigator, I know where I'm going,
I have, you know, all of these skills to avoid
being eaten or to hunt or whatever. And then there's
bonneheads who, for some reason like they just were like,
(18:54):
I don't know, I guess I'm just gonna go over here,
and then I'm gonna go over here, and just kind
of I think that's because of how they live their lives.
They're kind of just swimming through seagrass looking for a
little crabs and crustations.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
They're not really.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Going after like tuna or something like that, right, they
don't need to be like out smarting prey.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Necessarily, they're kind of just like yum yum yumps.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
They're enjoying.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
So they just live this like blisful life where they're
just like I'm just swimming through the sea grass, I'm
gonna have a little salad and I'm gonna have a
little shrimp, and I'm just gonna like move on with
my life, whereas I feel like other sharks are either
like getting hunted down my other sharks a lot, or
(19:42):
they are like having to you know, get prey that
is fast or sneaky or camouflaged and you know.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
All of these things. I think that bonnet heads they just.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Tend to have very easy lives and so they're like
natural instincts, maybe not as keen as some other sharks
that are out there in like the rough and tumble
of the deep sea where everything is trying to kill you.
Bonnet Heads are just kind of like, I don't know,
you've tagged me, and I don't know. I feel like
(20:16):
I didn't quite like that, But what if I just
swam right back into your head?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Because that and then I want to go that way.
I know that the last time I went that way,
I was in a net, right, and then you let
me go.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
But maybe this time I think.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I'm just gonna swim back that way.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Let's try it to get yeah this time, maybe this
time there will be a nice snack rather than being
in a net.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Oh a net again. Well, third time's the charm.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
That's really cute. I'm really being sold on these bonnet
heead sharks. That's I love that they're just out there
scrounging around having girl dinner. I when I am left,
I owned devices, Like, if there's not another human being
to enforce me to have a normal human dinner, I
(21:08):
will do bon ahead sharks stuff. I'll just be like,
I don't know, maybe some pasta. Are these you know,
potato chips still good? They're like under the counter. I
don't know, just a little this, little that. But it
is really fascinating that they are. Are they the only
shark species we know of that is omnivorous or are
(21:29):
they just more more omnivorous than other sharks.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
So recently, scientists figured out that whale sharks are actually
digesting a lot of the algae that they suck in
with their mouths while they're getting planked and stuff. So
whale sharks are also omnivorous, but whale sharks are little
different because they're passive feeders.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So it's kind of just like, yeah, you got some
plants in your.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Mouth by accident, big whoop.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
You figured out a way to die. Just it good
for you, Yeah, Whereas I mean you open up like
a bonnetthead shark stomach and it's just.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Like grass grass.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, I mean, and so they they're all it's almost
as if they are they could say, if they continued
on for millions of years, like they could completely turn.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
To be herbivores.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Yeah, I mean, so that's something that's really interesting about
bonnetheads and one of the reasons why we're really interested
in this idea of them being omnivorous and like a
huge percentage of their diet being sea grass, because there's
two sides.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
To this, like one, do they need.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Sea grass to like have a balanced diet, like are
they going to perform or if they don't eat a
lot of sea grass. And that's an important question because
our seagrass beds are going away, and so if we
lose sea grass, is that detrimental to the bonnet heads
(23:11):
or are they kind of just like filling in with
sea grass? And then on the other side of that, well,
if there's a shortage of meat options, like let's say
the like entire shrimp population goes away, or like we
have a huge decline of the fish, Like, will they
(23:33):
just be like, Okay, I guess I'll just eat vegetables.
It's like, do you need both of those right to
be healthy? Or like if you lost one, could you
just totally just only eat the other thing? Like is
there a reason.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Why you're eating both?
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Because you know, like people whenever we go like vegetarian
or vegan, like you have to be very specific about
what you eat because there's certain nutrients that you get
from meat, and if you aren't diligent about getting those
in the specific other foods that you eat, then bad
things can happen. Is it the same for bonnettheads? Or
(24:14):
could bonnettheads just totally just survive off of seagrass without
any other nutritional output.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Or vice versa.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Are they obligate surf and turf eaters or is this
by choice?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah? That is exactly that.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Is really fascinating. I'm always interested in like these evolutionary
histories of animals that like they started out maybe as herbivores,
then they became carnivores, but then they went back to
being herbivores. Like panda bears are really interesting, right, like
they maybe not entirely carnivores, but at least heavily carnivores
with some omnivorous traits. And then they started to completely
(24:54):
specialize in bamboo, and now that's it. That's that's it
for them. It's got to be bamboo or nothing, ride
or die with that bamboo for better or worse.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, which is which is a evolutionary mistake on their
Sometimes you adapt and then you're like I've adapted in
the direction.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Like investing in just one stock, like hey, you know
what this isthereum coin seems really good.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
I'm going to invest in all of it.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
But yeah, I mean it's but that's the thing, right,
Like evolution doesn't have foresight. It's not like, well maybe
we shouldn't like invest completely in bamboo. If there's a
ton of bamboo, if there's a ton of seagrass, it's
just like great, this will be like this forever because
like you know, there's no it's yes, so.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
And like I talk about that in the book, is that,
like a lot of times people have this like view
of evolution being very linear. We have that like stereotypical
image of like a monkey, and then it transforms into
like a man in a suit, and it's like, that's
not how that works. Such straight line evolution is kind
(26:08):
of just like roll the dice. Yeah, what works in
this moment? All right, sounds good.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
And something that's really interesting about hammerheads is, you know,
the first thing that people always ask me is like
what do hammerheads use their heads for?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
And then you.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
Know, I say, there's a lot of theories, and then
I tell them the theories.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
They can turn.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Better, their eyes are on the side, so they have
near three sixty vision, It spreads out their sensory organs
that sense electrical charge. They can use it to pin
down sting rays, all of these things. And then I
always end it with or it's just as likely that
this is a random mutation.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
That they've been trying to get rid of ever since.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Because there are two conflicting hypotheses right now on the phylogeny,
which is like how things are related. That says like,
actually the most ancestral, the one that's closest to the
most ancestral what was the ancestor of the hammerhead sharks
is the like wing head shark that has like the
widest head that's like three fourths as long as its body,
(27:15):
and then the ones that are more close in evolutionary
history to now, they came about with small heads. And
it's like, hmm, our hammerheads actually benefiting from his head
or are they? Like, I mean, I didn't die from
having this giant head, so I guess it's fine. Yeah,
(27:35):
which sometimes things happen because they didn't die exactly necessarily helpful.
It's just they didn't die and things still wanted to reproduce.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
With them, right, Yeah, did you die? Yes?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
No?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
And did you have offscreen? Yes? No, hooray you win
for now. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
This is really interesting because it's like maybe just like
great great, great great great great great Amma was like
really horny for big heads, and now you're stuck with
a big head forever.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Yeah that's yeah, It's just it's super funny, like evolution
is so weird like that, and then it'll be like, oh,
this wasn't beneficial until it was, right, and then ha
ha ha, you didn't want to mate with all of
these like weirdo big headed sharks, and then something happened
and suddenly having a big head is an advantage and
(28:28):
don't you feel silly?
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, I love Like there's that the idea that
maybe the uh you know, kid, I'm trying to remember
the exact name. It's this, there's a deer that had
like the massive, massive antlers.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
The Irish elk. There we go.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I'm I totally didn't just google that, by the way,
the Irish elk, And like some of the theories of
like why it just like went extinct is just like, well,
forrest kind of changed and they couldn't get in them.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
And that's it's just so funny to.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Me, right where it's like, yeah, I have these huge
antlers and all the ladies love my huge antlers, and
then just trying to get into the new sort of
more dense forest just like bonk bonk bonk, I can't
get in.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Or like in the shark world, we have the megalodon,
which everyone is always like, ah, the Megalodon, so cool,
such a great shark. It was giant and bigger is
not necessarily better because it was great. They were big.
They were like, ha ha ha, I'm eating all the whales.
This is awesome. And all the whales were like, oh no,
(29:41):
there's a big, scary predator. I'm gonna be really fast
and be able to swim fast and be small and
be able to swim fast, and like that's my strategy.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I'm just trying to dodge them. And then Meglaedon was like.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
All right, you're kind of fast, so you're hard to hunt.
But you know this is fine. We're chilling, we're vibing.
And then great hammerhead sharks are not great hammerheads. Great
white sharks came to exist and then they're like white
sharks are like, ha ha, I am smaller than you
and therefore faster and I can I can catch more
whales than you.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Haha. You thought that you were so.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Big and scary, but actually you're slow and I'm fast,
so mahhahaha.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And then the Megaladon.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Was like, oh no, yeah, now.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
I have competition and I can't compete because I'm too
fast and I can't evolve to be small fast enough.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Oh no, and then death.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
And then on the other side of that, the whales
are like, ha, no, we were so small and so
fast and that means nothing now because white sharks are
even faster. And then they're like, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
What do we do?
Speaker 4 (30:51):
And then there's like the one like group of whales
that was like a little fat and slow and they
were just getting munched on by the megalodon and everybody.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Was like ha ha, you suck. And then suddenly the
great white sharks were like, ah, then I want to
eat you because I can't fix you in my mouth.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yeah, too big, big problem.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
And then they're like, haha, joke's on you, all of
you small ones.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
We will rise now. And now whales are like giant.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yes, uh yeah, I do love.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I love like also just the image of the great
white shark like you know, just little, not to us,
little but compared to the megalodon, just like persistently yoink
grabbing little you know fish or whales like away from
the megalodon.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
But yeah, it is, it is.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
It's always really interesting how Yeah, evolution is a wild
circuitous ride. It is not like yes, I have now
evolved better teeth and everyone else has better teeth. It's like, no,
I'm going to like that one weird shark that has
the the it had the weird like almost saw blade
(32:05):
mouth at hiliocaprion.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, and it's just like, well, that was kind of
a mistake that didn't work very well, but it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Just as likely could have worked amazingly.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yes, it worked at the time. It was it seemed
like a good idea at the time. Uh, the the
offspring that had that mutation, they survived, they made it
work until they didn't. Now we don't have cool buzz
buzz saw sharks anymore.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
But something that's really cool about sharks and something that
I find really fascinating about them is even though you
know they're evolving and adapting, their basic body structure stays
pretty conserved throughout you know, this four hundred and fifty
million years they've been on this planet. There's like, you know,
the Carsonization where everything's becoming a crab and then sharks
(33:00):
are just like but also, I'm just going to be
a shark. Yeah, it's working.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Everyone's everyone's over there being like, have you heard about
this new thing called crab? And sharks are like not interested.
It's I'm happy with myself. Yeah, speaking of interesting sort
of shark shapes or like the consistent shark shape. Can
you talk a little bit about your research on sawfish,
(33:27):
because they are another one of those that it's like, huh,
why they got that saw in the front of them,
but then the rest of them is just like normal shark.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
I so obviously you can tell that I have a
thing for sharks and rays with weird faces. Yes, I
just I just love it. If you have a weird head,
I want to study you. I don't understand why you
have that.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
It's someone for everyone.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Sawfish are really cool because I mean they have have
this long saw, which the scientific term is a rostrum,
and they just whack things with it, and like that's
the strategy, just like fruit ninja. Yeah, just go into
a school of fish and just slice and dice, and
(34:17):
it's a really cool strategy. And then it also secondarily,
they have all of these ampulae of Lorenzini, which are
those sensory organs that sent electricity that I was talking
about before, and so it's like a it's like a
fish detector. So they got this long nose and they
can just like.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Like are distributed along that that long saw. So it's
like it's like a metal detector, but for electrical signals.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Yeah, and then like they sensed it and then they
just slip slash slash.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Cool and I mean it's cool. It's a cool strategy.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
And they're rays, so they are like not true sharks,
but they do have shark like body shape, but they
still have wings like array, and their gill slits are
still on the bottom.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
They still spend a lot of time like laying on the.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
Bottom and they just kind of lay on the bottom
and then whenever they feel like eating, they just slice
the dice and then they go back to laying. And honestly,
it's an inspirational way to live your life.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Lay eat, lay eat.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
I track the movements of these animals for my graduate research,
and literally we would just have these receivers where we
can detect if one of the sawfish that we put
a transmitter in is by receiver, and it would just
be days of this sawfish not moving for days by
(35:58):
this receiver. They were just like when I live here
now and I'm just gonna live here for like two weeks,
I'm not gonna move any further than like five hundred yards.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I'm just gonna just gonna be.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Here it's like it's like okay, cool, I'm glad you've
invested in this place.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And then they'll be like, ah.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
But now I want to move to a new place.
And then they will just in May just up and
be like we're out of here, and they go all
the way up the coast of Florida. On both sides,
they're like all the way up to like Appalatricola Bay,
which is by like Panama City Beach. This is the Panhandle,
(36:39):
the very tip right before you get into Alabama. Sometimes
they'll be we have we have environmental DNA that suggests
that they go all the way to Mississippi, and then
we've had detections all the way to Georgia.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
We've had people see them before in South Carolina.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
So they just are like I don't want to move,
and now I want to move really far and then
I'm gonna sit and then I'm gonna go back.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yes, that's you know.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I mean, I do really aspire to these charks because
I feel like I'm similar where sometimes I need a
lot of naps and then after I've had my little nap,
I'm like ready to go. I'm full of energy. But
then it's I need those naps. I need to be
able to just like lie down for a while before
I am ready to go to the panhandle, which in
(37:36):
my situation it's just like going to the grocery store.
I also love their little faces like underneath, because you
know their mouth is it looks like it is underneath there,
so rather than kind of like you know, it's the
same thing as like with rays, Right you flip over
(37:56):
a ray or don't do that, but if you do
do it, you see like they have their little mouth.
It's adorable and it's the same thing here and you
look at it and they like it goes from being
very menacing looking when you look at it like top
down and you see this like saw blade rostrum and
it's like very intimidating. And you look underneath and it's
like this little smiley face and a big nose. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
They I think they kind of look like someone who
took their dentures out and they're smiling at you.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
It's like a little muffing face.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yes. Yeah, Oh it's so cool, very very cool. What
is one aspect of your work, like when you're.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Out on the boat and.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Doing research on these sharks, Like what do you think
is one of the most surprising aspects that people when you.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Tell people about it.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
That you have to do, like when you are handling
sharks or when you're doing shark research.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
I mean, the first thing that people always ask me
is have you been bitten by a shark? And I
have not.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
And people have this image that like sharks are just
out to get you, which is unfairly earned because they're
just vibe and just like any other animal, and they
have this bad reputation and so it's like, yes, this
is a wild animal, but so are tons of other animals,
(39:34):
and you respect them, you take precautions, you don't do
anything that is going to obviously upset them and feel
make them feel like they need to fight you. And
they are just kind of like, I mean, I don't
like this, but I don't feel like you're trying to
kill me. So I'm kind of just gonna sit here
(39:59):
and then I hope you let me go, and then
as soon as you let me go, I'm out of here.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
So's it's it's sort of like, you know, I have
a dog taking my dog to a that he's like squirming, yeahs, like, ah,
please don't put that thermometer in my butt, which is fair.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, it's very fair. They must be so confused by that,
like why would you do that?
Speaker 4 (40:25):
And so it's the same thing with starts in the
same way that I would handle a dog or a
cat or any other animal that people normally interact with,
Like it's just as likely that a dog or a
cat could bite or scratch you.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yes, you're probably yes, you're probably more at risk of
my dog Cookie nipping you than a shark nipping you,
because she is uh, she expresses discomfort with just like, well,
I'm gonna put your finger in my mouth now because
you're doing something I don't like.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
This cold thing is up my butt, and I do
not like it.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
So, like I feel it is funny because like I
feel like we give such a pass to like cute
little dogs, cute little cats, right, and they're biting and
they're scratching, and but like you know, with sharks, it's like,
you know, it's the same thing, right, you might get
a little a little bite from a shark if it's
scared or something or curious, like sometimes like when I'm
(41:25):
petting one of my sisters in law's cats, like it's
not upset. It's just like, well, I'm gonna now taste
your hand and just give it a chomp. It's like, okay, man,
I don't know why you're doing that. But we give
cats and dogs this past and then sharks. Then when
a shark is like, you know, it takes a little
curiosity nibble, it's like, oh, well, you're you're just onto
(41:48):
logically evil animal.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 4 (41:52):
And so whenever I'm teaching people like interns and students
how to handle sharks, I always tell them never yourself
between the shark and the water. Like, if you're on
the boat and you're you're doing a shark tagging, you're
going to always be inside the boat and have the
(42:13):
shark facing the outside the boat because guess where the
shark wants to be in the wood. So like, if
the shark gets away from you, the shark is not
gonna think oh let me go bye that person. It's
gonna think freedom and jump into the water. But if
you're standing between the shark and the water, the shark
(42:34):
thinks I have to go through you, right. I need
I need to get you out of my way.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
I need to be like the kool Aid man, and
like barrel through this person like a wall.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
So that's that's what I tell people, is like sharks
are like any other animal, we give them this bad reputation.
I mean, a shark will be mining its own business,
swimming down beach and the headlines will read like man
eating sharks stock beach goers in Miami, and it's like,
all right, this shark is literally just swimming mining its business.
(43:13):
Note how it has swam past hundreds of people and
just kept going on.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Its very way. It is not interested in any of you.
But we don't say that about like a squirrel, Like
if a squirrel is running around Central Park, We're not
like man eating squirrels stocks people in Central Park.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Although sometimes like college campus squirrels are legitimately legitimately frightening
because they're so used to humans and they understand that
we have food, and I have there have been squirrels
that have been very intimidating. Also ground squirrels when you're
on the beach and they learn that like humans have food,
(43:54):
they will not leave you alone, like they are determined
and if they're like you have a sandwich, they if
they could kill me for a sandwich, I'm sure they would.
They absolutely have that in them.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
Yeah, but they're mammals and they're furries, so we get
them a past. That's what I've noticed. Yeah, you're a mammal,
we give you a pass. Or like you're like us, Yeah,
you can't be evil.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
I mean it's like.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Because like bears I think are similar. It's like a
similar situation with bears, right, Like, bears can be dangerous, right, Like,
they can hurt and injure a human being, just like
a shirt can hurt and injure a human being. Usually
it's defensive or by accident, but you know, on occasion, yeah,
like it can chomp you up. But then we're like, oh,
(44:41):
but bears are so cute and so cuttly. It's like, well,
they are definitely not cuddly, but we still like to
give them a pass.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
Do you remember that.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I don't remember exactly when it was, but there was
that there was a they had sent like a drone
off the coast of I want to say, somewhere in California.
But like they were just using this drone to like
you know, kind of like survey the area, and they
saw a bunch of sharks and also a bunch of
swimmers and it's like you just saw that there was
(45:15):
this like people who were swimming would not be able
to see these sharks. It was only because they had
this like drone camera footage, and the sharks were completely
ignoring all of the surfers, all of the swimmers, and
there were more sharks than people expected that there would
be in this area, and they were just like, yeah, man, whatever,
I don't I don't really care. I'm not interested in you,
(45:36):
and like usually it's just it was kind of interesting
because some of the response to that was like, oh
my god, there's so many sharks.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
That's so scary.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
But it seems like the response should be like, there's
so many more sharks than we thought, and they're ignoring everyone.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
They have no interest.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
Like I'll go out with friends or family and we'll
go to the beach or something and they'll be like, jasma,
there's sharks in this water. And I'm like, all right,
do me a favor. Stick your finger in the water,
lick your finger. Is it salty?
Speaker 2 (46:15):
And they're like yeah, And I'm like, then there are
sharks confirmed.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
Yes, sharks do live in the ocean. It is it
is their home. There's no such thing as shark infested waters.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
Yes, they live there, there's people.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Yeah, yeah, no, I guess.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
So it's like, ah, sharks in ocean makes headlines. Why,
like you wouldn't go, oh my gosh, there are birds
in the sky.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah I know. I mean, yeah, I think that. Yeah,
it's unfortunate. I think that, you know, jaws and other
sort of a kind of media stories about sharks and
shark attacks are they're so sensationalized, right, Like it's it
makes it seem like these are just vicious predators and
obviously you know they are predators, but for like fish
(47:13):
and seals and crabs and squid. Uh. But you know,
unless they kind of mistake you for one of those things,
you're usually gonna be fine. Like I'm not not saying
like go and find a shark and like put your
hand in its mouth and tease it.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
But you know, for the most part.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Like shark shark attacks are just incredibly rare. It just
is very unlikely to happen. And even if it does happen,
usually they like kind of take an exploratory bite and
they're like, uh, yuck, no, thank you, check please.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah. It sort of wild to me. How how much attention.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
It gets because there's nothing else like that where you
have a story where someone has an interaction with wildlife
and it like is world news if somebody if somebody
dies by a shark attack, it like is literally news
(48:18):
all over the world. It's like headlines all over the world.
And that happens like maybe ten times in a year,
and there are billions of people in this world. I
can't imagine something like being that hyper focused on like
anything else. It's like, ah, this person you know, fell
(48:40):
behind a vending machine and got stuck and died.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Stairs killed so many more people just stares, just get
out and it's it's fine.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
It's whenever people are like, well, I don't want to
go into the ocean because it's I'm scared of sharks,
and I'm like, there's so many fun things to do
in the ocean and like so many fun critters to
see and like things to learn about, and you're gonna
(49:13):
let something like that stop you, Like it's like I
always try to like outweigh yeah, the like sphere with
like ah, but like beaches are fun, cruises are fun.
You know, all of these things are fun. Yeah, they
take place of the ocean. Like you're just never gonna
(49:34):
go into the ocean because you might be one of
the billions and billions and billions of people.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Yeah, world that gets bit by a shark. Yeah, And
I'm like, do you drive?
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Yeah, exactly, like.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
You you could definitely die getting in a car.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Yeah, you've already survived that.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Yeah, You've already survived a much more dangerous activity that day,
which is driving.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
So it's like you, you know, you know how you
make the choice, but like, yes, you could get in
a car accident and you could die, but it's way
better to drive than to not drive. Like, you know,
I'm trying to create that same sense with the ocean,
and like, yes, we obey traffic laws, we put on
(50:23):
our seat belts, we put air bags in our car,
we have all of these safety measures in place. It's
the same thing with sharks. There are lifeguards. You can
do certain things like not swimming at dawn or dusk,
don't swim by you know, floating dead whale carcasses.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Look at it, man, oh man, I really wanted to
swim next to that dead bloated whale carcass.
Speaker 4 (50:49):
You know, like just pay if you're diving, don't go
touching sharks because honestly, most of the shark bites that
we have in the world are provoked, and usually it's
somebody touching a shark. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, you
wouldn't go grab a squirrel in Central Park because guess
what it's gonna bite you. Yeah, don't go grab in
(51:11):
a shark, don't touch them, don't get in their space,
don't swim towards them. Definitely, don't make them feel like
they're cornered.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4 (51:20):
And then the other thing that has happens is like
people are actively in chummed waters or they're spearfishing. Spearfishermen
also have the one of the highest rates of like
having shark bites. It's because they're literally like shooting thing
at you know, fish and it's bloody and it's creating
(51:42):
all of this mess. So yeah, obviously you're going to
have those, you know, increased likelihoods there.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, if you do want to know what it's like
to touch a shark, you could get like a I
don't know, I'd say like two ordred three hundred grit
sandpaper and rub that. That's gonna be kind of what
it feels like. There are aquariums. You'd probably want definitely
go to like a you know, major aquarium for this
(52:12):
so that you know that they're taking care of the
animals well. But like say Monterey Bay Aquarium, they do
have some tanks where they will let you very gently
put your hand in the water and just let a
raise go by, and that also gives you a pretty
good sense of what that feels like. So, yeah, there
are ways to have the experience of what it is
(52:37):
like to touch a shark without actually trying to touch
a shark. And I know they're cute, and I also
want to cuddle them. I want to hold them in
my arms and sing to them, but they won't like that,
so I won't do that.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Yeah, you got to.
Speaker 4 (52:52):
Have in a controlled setting with trained professionals that can
monitor the situation and the shark behavior.
Speaker 3 (53:03):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
Before we go, can you speak a bit about minorities
in shark science and how people could get involved.
Speaker 4 (53:15):
Sure, So, Minorities in Shark sciences or myths as we
call it.
Speaker 3 (53:22):
Good it's a solid acronym.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
Can I just say solid acronym?
Speaker 4 (53:29):
So myths is dedicated to supporting gender, minorities of color,
and folks from the global South that are interested in
marine science, particularly the study of sharks and rays, and
we do that in a number of ways. We serve
what we call ka gray So we have outreach programs
for youth, spring break camps, summer camps, science at the
(53:52):
c days, we go to schools and community groups to
talk about sharks and their relatives. For folks that are
older that are interested in getting into the field, we
have fellowships, internships, We have workshops like professional development workshops,
(54:13):
a huge variety. We try to make it as accessful
as possible, so it's all expenses paid.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
There are three day long.
Speaker 4 (54:24):
Time commitments, there are one month to three months. There's
all sorts of options to engage with marine science in
a meaningful way, even hybrid experiences where it's partially online.
And then we do research, so we help support people
doing research all over the world. We have about five
(54:46):
hundred members representing about thirty four different countries and the
majority of US states and territories, and we support them
in doing their research, particularly focused on in inclusive conservation
and research, where we center the voices of communities that
don't typically get to be heard in science or in
(55:10):
conservation and ways to get involved. We have applications for
programs open pretty much all the time, so you can
go on our website and you can join our mailing
list to stay up to date on opportunities. You can
also on our website find the donation button you can
(55:31):
donate to support us. You can buy swag if you
do want to come touch a shark. We do have
a fundraiser happening right now, which is Shark Scientists for
a Day, where you can buy a ticket and come
and learn about the research that we do. Come on
the boat with us and be a shark scientist for
(55:52):
a day, and by doing that, you allow two of
our participants to get hands on training. So your ticket
pays for two participants in one of our workshops to
get training as well, so that is an option. And
then there's tons of information about our various programs all
(56:16):
on our website. We also are very active on social media.
We're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok nice TikTok.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
I totally understand TikTok. I am completely with it.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
I will takes one of us.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Yes, Shark Talk, I will link to that. I'll put
a link to that website in the show notes and
where and can people pick up your book? Just in
bookstores or online? Where can people get to your book?
Sharks don't sync.
Speaker 4 (56:53):
Yeah, so you can get the book pretty much anywhere
books are sold, So check out your local independent bookstore.
Support independent bookstores. And if you don't have an independent
bookstore that's around you. Barnes and Nobles, Books, a million, Amazon,
all of those places will have it. And it's on
audiobook and it's on ebook, so check with your library.
(57:19):
See if it's in your library. See if it's on Libby.
You can read it an e book, So check that out.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Jasmine.
This was really really fun and I learned a lot
about bon ahead Sharks. Now it's time to play a
little game called guests Who's Squawking? The Mystery Animal sound Game?
Full disclosure, I am recording this in the future, which
I guess is your past, but the future from when I.
Speaker 3 (57:50):
Recorded the rest of the podcast.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
Anyways, So last week's episode was a rerun because I
needed a little vacation.
Speaker 3 (57:59):
It was called.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Lap Camels, and so this was the mystery animal sound
hint from that episode it was you may find these
little dudes booging to an imaginary beat, but it's probably
for the prey that lies beneath their.
Speaker 5 (58:13):
Feet, so cute.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
Congratulations to Sherry Ce for guessing correctly that this is
the American woodcock.
Speaker 3 (58:32):
It is pretty.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Internet famous for walking in a very particular rhythmic fashion,
which is thought to possibly be to create vibrations under
the earth that mimics that of rain, which would then
drive worms up to the surface. But yes, it makes
that adorable little pink sound, and it is also the
(58:53):
bird itself, very very cute. All right, So two weeks
ago we had an episode called Hot Sharks Summer. Highly
recommend listening to that one if you haven't already given
that this one if you liked the sharks on this
when we talk about other sharks there. But the mystery
animal sound hint was this, don't talk with your mouth full.
Speaker 3 (59:26):
Sorry, I can't stop laughing.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
Okay, So congratulations to Ari L.
Speaker 3 (59:33):
M roots K for guessing.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Correctly that this is a harbor seal enjoying a fish
with his snoot in the water.
Speaker 3 (59:43):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
So I'm going to hold off on doing a new
mystery animal sound game because next week I plan to
do a listener Questions episode, so the week after I
will do a new one when I have a guest on.
But yeah, because I'm doing a listener Questions episode next week,
I have not put in writing that. So if you
do have a question that you'd like me to answer,
(01:00:05):
do write in and maybe I'll answer it next week,
maybe sometime in the future, or send you an email.
And I do love your questions, so write to me
at Creature Featurepod at gmail dot com. Thank you guys
so much. Thank you guys for listening. If you are
enjoying the show, if you leave a rating and review,
(01:00:27):
that really does help me and I do actually read
every single one of them. And thanks to the Space
Classics for their super awesome song XO Lumina. Creature features
a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like the one
you just heard, visit the.
Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Or Hey gus, what where have you listened to your
favorite shows? I don't judge you, not your mother, and
I can't tell you what to do except don't poke
a shark unless you are being supervised by experts.
Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
See you next Wednesday. A MHM
Welcome to Creature Future production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host
of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,
and today on this show, we are continuing hout Sharks
Summer with a special guest who is a shark biologist
and expert, and we are going to learn a lot
(00:28):
about sharks about life. So welcome to the show. The
co founder of Minorities in Shark Sciences and author of
the new autobiographical book Sharks Don't Sink, Jasmine Graham.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome, Hello, Thanks for having me. So.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I really love how your book combines both science and
your life story. So like you weave together tales of
field research, amazing sharks, science and facts, and.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Your own experience, your life story.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So for this interview, I definitely want to talk about
both things.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
So first of all, I.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Mean, I think I and probably all of my listeners
love sharks, so there's no need to, you know, try
to justify why one would love sharks. But what did
draw you to sharks as a focus of research.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, I always was interested in the ocean.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
I grew up fishing with my dad and so the
ocean was always a big part of my life. And
then I found out in high school you could get
paid to study fish, and I was like, that sounds
like the coolest job ever. I guess I'll do that,
And so I went to college for marine biology. And
I tried a lot of different things while I was
(01:52):
in college, but what stuck was sharks. And how I
first got introduced to sharks was a total accident. That's
what I call a scientific meat cute, where I had
this moment where I was walking down the hallway and
turned a corner and literally ran into a professor.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I thought, you're going to study sharks.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So you ran into a shark.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
In a shark in a hallway, and not shark.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
In a hallway.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
The elevator doors are closing and a shark sticks a
fin in and lets you in.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
I guess in a way, I did run into a
shark because I ran into doctor Gavin Taylor. Papers went flying,
and then I started picking them up and I started
seeing all of these images of these really cool CT
scans of sharks, and I was like, whoa, these are awesome.
And I was asking him about it, and he was
(02:45):
telling me about his research and how he is studying
how sharks evolve and their adaptations and kind of just
talking about how old they are and all of these
cool things that he's learning about them, trying to build
this tree of life of sharks, and I was just
kind of like, that sounds super awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I want to do that.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
And so he reached out to me a couple of
months later and said, I actually have some funding and
an opening in my lab for an undergraduate researcher, and
so then I started working with him with sharks, and
that's just where I stayed because honestly, sharks are super cool.
(03:27):
Just from seeing a couple of CT scans and listening
to this man geek out about sharks for five minutes
in the hallway, I fell in love.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I do not blame you. Sharks are incredibly cool. Can
you talk a little bit about your favorite shark and
what it means to you.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
So my favorite shark is the bonnethead shark, and I
love them for several reasons. One because it's the first
shark species that I got to work with in a
scientific setting, so that was pretty cool. Two, they're just
super cute. There are multiple bonnet head pictures in the book.
(04:07):
Because I just need people to know how cute they are.
They look like they're wearing little tiny hats. They're often
swimming around kind of in a very confused way, and
they're just adorable. And the third reason is they were
the first shark discovered to be omnivorous.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
So they actually eat plants and animals.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Actually, sea grass makes up forty to sixty percent of
their diet, and so I think it's really cool that
there's a shark out there that actually eats more plants.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Than animals in some situations.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
That is really cool. That sounds like they're the bears
of the sea. How big are bonnet sharks.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
They're very small. They're like they max out between three
and four feet.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Oh, babies, they're small, the little baby guys.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I of all the animals that I know that you
can't do this, but I do want to, like pick
up a shark in my arms and hold it like
a baby, because their faces to me, are so cute,
the little, the little just the little downturned mouths, the
big eyes. I have a I have a hard time
(05:23):
understanding why people don't find them cute.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Honestly, Yeah, I mean thresher sharks. Their faces are so cute.
They just look alarmed all the time. I know, they
just look frightened.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I want to carry one around in a baby born
if that wasn't, you know, incredibly harmful to the shark.
But yeah, that's so interesting, And you have you done
research on bonnet sharks.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I have. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
So for my undergraduate research, I focused on a small
all part of the tree of Life project for sharks
and rays, and I focus specifically on the hammerhead family.
So I was looking at all ten speechies of hammerheads,
which a lot of people don't know that there are
ten species of hammerheads. Sometimes people think that hammerheads are
(06:15):
just like one species.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
One guy, one shark that's got like an actual hammer.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
So I studied all of them, bonnettheads included. And then
I got to co advise a master student who studied
bonnetead sharks and their head shapes, and I talk about
that a lot in the book. And the head shapes
are super cool for bonnet heeads because they exhibit what's
(06:46):
called sexual dimorphism, which is where males and females look different.
And that's super cool that their heads look different if
you're a male versus a female bonnetead shark because that's
super weird. What a weird thing that is different between
males and females, But it.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Is imagine if for for humans, if women were going
around with triangle heads and men were going around with
square heads. I don't know, we'd probably find whole new
ways to make society sexist based on like, well, you know,
with the triangle head, you know, obviously you can't be president.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
One thing also in the book that is really interesting,
but also you know, kind of I think painful, is
like discussing the challenges that you face in marine biology,
particularly as a black woman. Can you talk a little
bit about how you approached these challenges and what like
what they were, what you face, which you know, really
(07:51):
likely the only challenges in research should be you know, hey,
are my you know, notes getting wet because I'm on
a boat. But no, there's a lot of actual social
challenges that you faced.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah. Science is interesting because people feel like science should
be a place where we don't have human problems, because
people see scientists as these like objective beings that don't
have any bias and all of these things.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
But that's not true. Scientists are people just like anyone else,
and so therefore science has some society issues creep into it,
and so a lot of those issues come up in
science settings when it's people interacting with other people. And
(08:40):
so that is something that I've found to be a challenge,
mostly in the sense of people look at me and
they don't expect me to be a scientist, and so
therefore there's this, oh, you need to prove yourself because
we don't feel like you belong here because you don't
look like scientists. I've actually had a lot of people
(09:02):
say that, like, oh, you know, it looks like a scientist,
and then I asked the question, what does a scientist
look like, right, and then they get very uncomfortable they
should yeah, yes, that is.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
My bias creeping out.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
And so I think that that is, in and of itself,
something where you have this sort of doubt when you
come into a room, or when you submit a paper,
or when you're submitting a grant proposal, that people have
these preconceived notions about what a scientist is and what
(09:36):
a scientist looks like, and what they do and don't do.
And so that's a challenge. And then there's more egregious things,
of course, because people sometimes are terrible, But a lot
of it is people that the heart I would say
the hardest thing is people that believe that they don't
(09:59):
have bias, and then they walk around like I had
a talking about yeah, that's why I said that, like
it I would have assumed that anybody was a custodian.
I'm like, would you know, or like they'll be like, oh,
it's just because you're young, is it. Yeah, And so
(10:22):
that's that's the harder thing to deal with because whenever
you have somebody that's like blatantly and openly causic issues,
then it's a little easier to pinpoint. But there's often
a lot of times where people, you know, say well,
I don't think they meant it like that, or maybe
you took it the wrong way or that other stuff
(10:42):
where it's sort of like, I don't believe that this
is actually a thing that is happening a lot.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I don't believe that bias played into this.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
It's like a lot of defensiveness. So not only is
it awkward or uncomfortable because it's like, hey, you just
kind of assume something of aut me and that it's
also like, oh, now you have to deal with someone
being really defensive like oh no, no, no, I'm not sexist,
I'm not racist, you know.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, it's a big thing. And then
there's also other issues with marine science in particular because
a lot of times you are on boats or in
very remote locations and you're stuck with the same people
for a long amount of time.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
And it's not like.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
A normal nine to five where you're like, cool, I
only have to deal with this for eight hours and
then I walk away. I mean, sometimes it's weeks of
you have to spend time with these people.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
For a really long time.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
There's all sorts of weird power dynamics at play where
sometimes people don't feel comfortable speaking out about things, especially
things like sexual harassment and stuff like that. Especially if
you are a PSI in a position of less power
and you would have to challenge.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Some body that has more power than you. It creates
really awkward situations.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, I mean, I imagine that is especially profound on
a boat. Like in academia, it's it's a huge problem.
And then you take all of these social complexities and
problems of academia and then you put it on like
a platform that is floating in the middle of the
ocean that seems really challenging.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Do you have any advice that you would give young
people who are really interested in marine biology but they
are concerned about these things, like you know, maybe they're
a minority, maybe they are worried that the field is
going to be really really challenging because of these assumptions
that like people make about what a scientist should be.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
I mean what I've always done is I always remind
myself that there are people who want help, and there
are people who can be really good allies and friends
in the field, And if you surround yourself with those people,
then you have this sort of buffer where hopefully you
(13:14):
don't have to be the one to put yourself at
risk to say something to somebody that has more power
than you or something like that, because you have other
people in your corner that will speak out on your behalf.
And those people do exist, and they are very prominent,
and they usually make themselves very clear. They're very easy
(13:34):
to spot speacon of light where you're like, ah, yes,
you seem awesome, let's hang out. I want you in
my circle, and like people that just hype you up
because whenever you are constantly getting these like little tiny
knock downs. It's really helpful to have someone that's constantly
(13:55):
boosting you up so that you know you can keep
your spirits high, keep your confidence up. I think the
best way to fight imposter syndrome is to have people
constantly tell you that you belong here and you're doing
a great job. And having hype people having a height
spore really helpful. The other thing I think is whenever
(14:17):
people whatever, people maliciously try to make other people seem small,
the best response is to be bigger and take up
more space because they're trying to nudge you out, and
so the best defense is offense to just be bigger,
(14:38):
be bolder, like, don't shrink away. I think sometimes people
when they come into a space and they feel like
they aren't being valued or they're worried about being the
only person like them and having this sort of Oh,
I have to keep proving myself over and over and
over again.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Whenever I get in.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Those situations, just walk in with all of the authority
in the world, even if I even if I'm in
my head kind of.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Like ah, I feel like I am an impostor.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Facing I'm like, yeah, I'm Jasmine Graham and I'm a
shark site because I'm an expert in this field and
I know what I'm talking about and everything is great.
And then if anyone challenges that, I can say, well,
you're wrong, yeah, because I do belong here. And even
if you just say it, you say it enough, other
(15:31):
people tell you enough, and then you feel it. You
feel like you can walk into situations with your head
held high and take up space. And the most important
thing is to not let people like that win. And
you let them win whenever you get small. So you
gotta stand your stand your ground.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I love. That's really really good advice.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I mean, that's that's good advice, and probably everywhere in
I've not just in science, but yeah, I mean I do.
I can't help but always try to relate sort of
be like human psychology back to back to animals, because
that's what this show is. I don't necessarily know enough
about shark behavior to say that sharks would also do this,
(16:18):
but like really like when they are being threatened or
being intimidated, really trying to kind of like say like no, no, no,
I am I am coming. I am a shark, and
I'm tough and I'm cool and like, don't bother me,
even though inside sharks might actually be quite scared.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Yeah, I mean a lot of animals do this. Some
animals do this quite literally. I mean porcupines put up
their spines, puffer fish puff up. There's like snakes swelled,
like there's this natural like something is threatening me.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Be bigger.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
It's sort of a natural instinct of animals like well,
if I'm bigger, then maybe they'll think to us about
messing with me. And so having that attitude of.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
People love to punch down, you know.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Like you know, people are always going after people that
they feel like they can push around, and as soon
as you stand your grounds, they're like, oh, this is not.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
A person to be trifled with. Let me go away.
And that's what happens in the animal kingdom.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Is no animal wants to hunt prey that's going to
fight back.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, Like that is not what they want to do.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
If they have a choice between like a sleeping rat
and a king cobra, they're going to go for the rat.
I'm like, I don't want to find a king cobra.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I might lose.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
So yeah, just being big and helping people see like oh,
you think you're about to punch down, but really you're
punching up yea, And they're like.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Ah, yeah, maybe think I want to do that? Yeah yeah,
maybe maybe.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Maybe think twice about eating that pufferfish that now is
a big spiky balloon. You mentioned earlier that the bonnehead
sharks like swim around like they don't know where they're
they're going.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Can you expand on that?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Why Why do they swim around in sort of this
awkward way.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
That's a really good question. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Some sharks are just There are some sharks that are
really like, I'm an excellent navigator, I know where I'm going,
I have, you know, all of these skills to avoid
being eaten or to hunt or whatever. And then there's
bonneheads who, for some reason like they just were like,
(18:54):
I don't know, I guess I'm just gonna go over here,
and then I'm gonna go over here, and just kind
of I think that's because of how they live their lives.
They're kind of just swimming through seagrass looking for a
little crabs and crustations.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
They're not really.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Going after like tuna or something like that, right, they
don't need to be like out smarting prey.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Necessarily, they're kind of just like yum yum yumps.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
They're enjoying.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
So they just live this like blisful life where they're
just like I'm just swimming through the sea grass, I'm
gonna have a little salad and I'm gonna have a
little shrimp, and I'm just gonna like move on with
my life, whereas I feel like other sharks are either
like getting hunted down my other sharks a lot, or
(19:42):
they are like having to you know, get prey that
is fast or sneaky or camouflaged and you know.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
All of these things. I think that bonnet heads they just.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Tend to have very easy lives and so they're like
natural instincts, maybe not as keen as some other sharks
that are out there in like the rough and tumble
of the deep sea where everything is trying to kill you.
Bonnet Heads are just kind of like, I don't know,
you've tagged me, and I don't know. I feel like
(20:16):
I didn't quite like that, But what if I just
swam right back into your head?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Because that and then I want to go that way.
I know that the last time I went that way,
I was in a net, right, and then you let
me go.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
But maybe this time I think.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I'm just gonna swim back that way.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Let's try it to get yeah this time, maybe this
time there will be a nice snack rather than being
in a net.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Oh a net again. Well, third time's the charm.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
That's really cute. I'm really being sold on these bonnet
heead sharks. That's I love that they're just out there
scrounging around having girl dinner. I when I am left,
I owned devices, Like, if there's not another human being
to enforce me to have a normal human dinner, I
(21:08):
will do bon ahead sharks stuff. I'll just be like,
I don't know, maybe some pasta. Are these you know,
potato chips still good? They're like under the counter. I
don't know, just a little this, little that. But it
is really fascinating that they are. Are they the only
shark species we know of that is omnivorous or are
(21:29):
they just more more omnivorous than other sharks.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
So recently, scientists figured out that whale sharks are actually
digesting a lot of the algae that they suck in
with their mouths while they're getting planked and stuff. So
whale sharks are also omnivorous, but whale sharks are little
different because they're passive feeders.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So it's kind of just like, yeah, you got some
plants in your.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Mouth by accident, big whoop.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
You figured out a way to die. Just it good
for you, Yeah, Whereas I mean you open up like
a bonnetthead shark stomach and it's just.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Like grass grass.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, I mean, and so they they're all it's almost
as if they are they could say, if they continued
on for millions of years, like they could completely turn.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
To be herbivores.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Yeah, I mean, so that's something that's really interesting about
bonnetheads and one of the reasons why we're really interested
in this idea of them being omnivorous and like a
huge percentage of their diet being sea grass, because there's
two sides.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
To this, like one, do they need.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Sea grass to like have a balanced diet, like are
they going to perform or if they don't eat a
lot of sea grass. And that's an important question because
our seagrass beds are going away, and so if we
lose sea grass, is that detrimental to the bonnet heads
(23:11):
or are they kind of just like filling in with
sea grass? And then on the other side of that, well,
if there's a shortage of meat options, like let's say
the like entire shrimp population goes away, or like we
have a huge decline of the fish, Like, will they
(23:33):
just be like, Okay, I guess I'll just eat vegetables.
It's like, do you need both of those right to
be healthy? Or like if you lost one, could you
just totally just only eat the other thing? Like is
there a reason.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Why you're eating both?
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Because you know, like people whenever we go like vegetarian
or vegan, like you have to be very specific about
what you eat because there's certain nutrients that you get
from meat, and if you aren't diligent about getting those
in the specific other foods that you eat, then bad
things can happen. Is it the same for bonnettheads? Or
(24:14):
could bonnettheads just totally just survive off of seagrass without
any other nutritional output.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Or vice versa.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Are they obligate surf and turf eaters or is this
by choice?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah? That is exactly that.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Is really fascinating. I'm always interested in like these evolutionary
histories of animals that like they started out maybe as herbivores,
then they became carnivores, but then they went back to
being herbivores. Like panda bears are really interesting, right, like
they maybe not entirely carnivores, but at least heavily carnivores
with some omnivorous traits. And then they started to completely
(24:54):
specialize in bamboo, and now that's it. That's that's it
for them. It's got to be bamboo or nothing, ride
or die with that bamboo for better or worse.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, which is which is a evolutionary mistake on their
Sometimes you adapt and then you're like I've adapted in
the direction.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Like investing in just one stock, like hey, you know
what this isthereum coin seems really good.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
I'm going to invest in all of it.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
But yeah, I mean it's but that's the thing, right,
Like evolution doesn't have foresight. It's not like, well maybe
we shouldn't like invest completely in bamboo. If there's a
ton of bamboo, if there's a ton of seagrass, it's
just like great, this will be like this forever because
like you know, there's no it's yes, so.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
And like I talk about that in the book, is that,
like a lot of times people have this like view
of evolution being very linear. We have that like stereotypical
image of like a monkey, and then it transforms into
like a man in a suit, and it's like, that's
not how that works. Such straight line evolution is kind
(26:08):
of just like roll the dice. Yeah, what works in
this moment? All right, sounds good.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
And something that's really interesting about hammerheads is, you know,
the first thing that people always ask me is like
what do hammerheads use their heads for?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
And then you.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
Know, I say, there's a lot of theories, and then
I tell them the theories.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
They can turn.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Better, their eyes are on the side, so they have
near three sixty vision, It spreads out their sensory organs
that sense electrical charge. They can use it to pin
down sting rays, all of these things. And then I
always end it with or it's just as likely that
this is a random mutation.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
That they've been trying to get rid of ever since.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Because there are two conflicting hypotheses right now on the phylogeny,
which is like how things are related. That says like,
actually the most ancestral, the one that's closest to the
most ancestral what was the ancestor of the hammerhead sharks
is the like wing head shark that has like the
widest head that's like three fourths as long as its body,
(27:15):
and then the ones that are more close in evolutionary
history to now, they came about with small heads. And
it's like, hmm, our hammerheads actually benefiting from his head
or are they? Like, I mean, I didn't die from
having this giant head, so I guess it's fine. Yeah,
(27:35):
which sometimes things happen because they didn't die exactly necessarily helpful.
It's just they didn't die and things still wanted to reproduce.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
With them, right, Yeah, did you die? Yes?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
No?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
And did you have offscreen? Yes? No, hooray you win
for now. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
This is really interesting because it's like maybe just like
great great, great great great great great Amma was like
really horny for big heads, and now you're stuck with
a big head forever.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Yeah that's yeah, It's just it's super funny, like evolution
is so weird like that, and then it'll be like, oh,
this wasn't beneficial until it was, right, and then ha
ha ha, you didn't want to mate with all of
these like weirdo big headed sharks, and then something happened
and suddenly having a big head is an advantage and
(28:28):
don't you feel silly?
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, I love Like there's that the idea that
maybe the uh you know, kid, I'm trying to remember
the exact name. It's this, there's a deer that had
like the massive, massive antlers.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
The Irish elk. There we go.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I'm I totally didn't just google that, by the way,
the Irish elk, And like some of the theories of
like why it just like went extinct is just like, well,
forrest kind of changed and they couldn't get in them.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
And that's it's just so funny to.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Me, right where it's like, yeah, I have these huge
antlers and all the ladies love my huge antlers, and
then just trying to get into the new sort of
more dense forest just like bonk bonk bonk, I can't
get in.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Or like in the shark world, we have the megalodon,
which everyone is always like, ah, the Megalodon, so cool,
such a great shark. It was giant and bigger is
not necessarily better because it was great. They were big.
They were like, ha ha ha, I'm eating all the whales.
This is awesome. And all the whales were like, oh no,
(29:41):
there's a big, scary predator. I'm gonna be really fast
and be able to swim fast and be small and
be able to swim fast, and like that's my strategy.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I'm just trying to dodge them. And then Meglaedon was like.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
All right, you're kind of fast, so you're hard to hunt.
But you know this is fine. We're chilling, we're vibing.
And then great hammerhead sharks are not great hammerheads. Great
white sharks came to exist and then they're like white
sharks are like, ha ha, I am smaller than you
and therefore faster and I can I can catch more
whales than you.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Haha. You thought that you were so.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Big and scary, but actually you're slow and I'm fast,
so mahhahaha.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And then the Megaladon.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Was like, oh no, yeah, now.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
I have competition and I can't compete because I'm too
fast and I can't evolve to be small fast enough.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Oh no, and then death.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
And then on the other side of that, the whales
are like, ha, no, we were so small and so
fast and that means nothing now because white sharks are
even faster. And then they're like, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
What do we do?
Speaker 4 (30:51):
And then there's like the one like group of whales
that was like a little fat and slow and they
were just getting munched on by the megalodon and everybody.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Was like ha ha, you suck. And then suddenly the
great white sharks were like, ah, then I want to
eat you because I can't fix you in my mouth.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yeah, too big, big problem.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
And then they're like, haha, joke's on you, all of
you small ones.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
We will rise now. And now whales are like giant.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yes, uh yeah, I do love.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I love like also just the image of the great
white shark like you know, just little, not to us,
little but compared to the megalodon, just like persistently yoink
grabbing little you know fish or whales like away from
the megalodon.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
But yeah, it is, it is.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
It's always really interesting how Yeah, evolution is a wild
circuitous ride. It is not like yes, I have now
evolved better teeth and everyone else has better teeth. It's like, no,
I'm going to like that one weird shark that has
the the it had the weird like almost saw blade
(32:05):
mouth at hiliocaprion.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, and it's just like, well, that was kind of
a mistake that didn't work very well, but it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Just as likely could have worked amazingly.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yes, it worked at the time. It was it seemed
like a good idea at the time. Uh, the the
offspring that had that mutation, they survived, they made it
work until they didn't. Now we don't have cool buzz
buzz saw sharks anymore.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
But something that's really cool about sharks and something that
I find really fascinating about them is even though you
know they're evolving and adapting, their basic body structure stays
pretty conserved throughout you know, this four hundred and fifty
million years they've been on this planet. There's like, you know,
the Carsonization where everything's becoming a crab and then sharks
(33:00):
are just like but also, I'm just going to be
a shark. Yeah, it's working.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Everyone's everyone's over there being like, have you heard about
this new thing called crab? And sharks are like not interested.
It's I'm happy with myself. Yeah, speaking of interesting sort
of shark shapes or like the consistent shark shape. Can
you talk a little bit about your research on sawfish,
(33:27):
because they are another one of those that it's like, huh,
why they got that saw in the front of them,
but then the rest of them is just like normal shark.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
I so obviously you can tell that I have a
thing for sharks and rays with weird faces. Yes, I
just I just love it. If you have a weird head,
I want to study you. I don't understand why you
have that.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
It's someone for everyone.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Sawfish are really cool because I mean they have have
this long saw, which the scientific term is a rostrum,
and they just whack things with it, and like that's
the strategy, just like fruit ninja. Yeah, just go into
a school of fish and just slice and dice, and
(34:17):
it's a really cool strategy. And then it also secondarily,
they have all of these ampulae of Lorenzini, which are
those sensory organs that sent electricity that I was talking
about before, and so it's like a it's like a
fish detector. So they got this long nose and they
can just like.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Like are distributed along that that long saw. So it's
like it's like a metal detector, but for electrical signals.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Yeah, and then like they sensed it and then they
just slip slash slash.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Cool and I mean it's cool. It's a cool strategy.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
And they're rays, so they are like not true sharks,
but they do have shark like body shape, but they
still have wings like array, and their gill slits are
still on the bottom.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
They still spend a lot of time like laying on the.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
Bottom and they just kind of lay on the bottom
and then whenever they feel like eating, they just slice
the dice and then they go back to laying. And honestly,
it's an inspirational way to live your life.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Lay eat, lay eat.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
I track the movements of these animals for my graduate research,
and literally we would just have these receivers where we
can detect if one of the sawfish that we put
a transmitter in is by receiver, and it would just
be days of this sawfish not moving for days by
(35:58):
this receiver. They were just like when I live here
now and I'm just gonna live here for like two weeks,
I'm not gonna move any further than like five hundred yards.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I'm just gonna just gonna be.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Here it's like it's like okay, cool, I'm glad you've
invested in this place.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And then they'll be like, ah.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
But now I want to move to a new place.
And then they will just in May just up and
be like we're out of here, and they go all
the way up the coast of Florida. On both sides,
they're like all the way up to like Appalatricola Bay,
which is by like Panama City Beach. This is the Panhandle,
(36:39):
the very tip right before you get into Alabama. Sometimes
they'll be we have we have environmental DNA that suggests
that they go all the way to Mississippi, and then
we've had detections all the way to Georgia.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
We've had people see them before in South Carolina.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
So they just are like I don't want to move,
and now I want to move really far and then
I'm gonna sit and then I'm gonna go back.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yes, that's you know.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I mean, I do really aspire to these charks because
I feel like I'm similar where sometimes I need a
lot of naps and then after I've had my little nap,
I'm like ready to go. I'm full of energy. But
then it's I need those naps. I need to be
able to just like lie down for a while before
I am ready to go to the panhandle, which in
(37:36):
my situation it's just like going to the grocery store.
I also love their little faces like underneath, because you
know their mouth is it looks like it is underneath there,
so rather than kind of like you know, it's the
same thing as like with rays, Right you flip over
(37:56):
a ray or don't do that, but if you do
do it, you see like they have their little mouth.
It's adorable and it's the same thing here and you
look at it and they like it goes from being
very menacing looking when you look at it like top
down and you see this like saw blade rostrum and
it's like very intimidating. And you look underneath and it's
like this little smiley face and a big nose. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
They I think they kind of look like someone who
took their dentures out and they're smiling at you.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
It's like a little muffing face.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yes. Yeah, Oh it's so cool, very very cool. What
is one aspect of your work, like when you're.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Out on the boat and.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Doing research on these sharks, Like what do you think
is one of the most surprising aspects that people when you.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Tell people about it.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
That you have to do, like when you are handling
sharks or when you're doing shark research.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
I mean, the first thing that people always ask me
is have you been bitten by a shark? And I
have not.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
And people have this image that like sharks are just
out to get you, which is unfairly earned because they're
just vibe and just like any other animal, and they
have this bad reputation and so it's like, yes, this
is a wild animal, but so are tons of other animals,
(39:34):
and you respect them, you take precautions, you don't do
anything that is going to obviously upset them and feel
make them feel like they need to fight you. And
they are just kind of like, I mean, I don't
like this, but I don't feel like you're trying to
kill me. So I'm kind of just gonna sit here
(39:59):
and then I hope you let me go, and then
as soon as you let me go, I'm out of here.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
So's it's it's sort of like, you know, I have
a dog taking my dog to a that he's like squirming, yeahs, like, ah,
please don't put that thermometer in my butt, which is fair.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, it's very fair. They must be so confused by that,
like why would you do that?
Speaker 4 (40:25):
And so it's the same thing with starts in the
same way that I would handle a dog or a
cat or any other animal that people normally interact with,
Like it's just as likely that a dog or a
cat could bite or scratch you.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yes, you're probably yes, you're probably more at risk of
my dog Cookie nipping you than a shark nipping you,
because she is uh, she expresses discomfort with just like, well,
I'm gonna put your finger in my mouth now because
you're doing something I don't like.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
This cold thing is up my butt, and I do
not like it.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
So, like I feel it is funny because like I
feel like we give such a pass to like cute
little dogs, cute little cats, right, and they're biting and
they're scratching, and but like you know, with sharks, it's like,
you know, it's the same thing, right, you might get
a little a little bite from a shark if it's
scared or something or curious, like sometimes like when I'm
(41:25):
petting one of my sisters in law's cats, like it's
not upset. It's just like, well, I'm gonna now taste
your hand and just give it a chomp. It's like, okay, man,
I don't know why you're doing that. But we give
cats and dogs this past and then sharks. Then when
a shark is like, you know, it takes a little
curiosity nibble, it's like, oh, well, you're you're just onto
(41:48):
logically evil animal.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 4 (41:52):
And so whenever I'm teaching people like interns and students
how to handle sharks, I always tell them never yourself
between the shark and the water. Like, if you're on
the boat and you're you're doing a shark tagging, you're
going to always be inside the boat and have the
(42:13):
shark facing the outside the boat because guess where the
shark wants to be in the wood. So like, if
the shark gets away from you, the shark is not
gonna think oh let me go bye that person. It's
gonna think freedom and jump into the water. But if
you're standing between the shark and the water, the shark
(42:34):
thinks I have to go through you, right. I need
I need to get you out of my way.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
I need to be like the kool Aid man, and
like barrel through this person like a wall.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
So that's that's what I tell people, is like sharks
are like any other animal, we give them this bad reputation.
I mean, a shark will be mining its own business,
swimming down beach and the headlines will read like man
eating sharks stock beach goers in Miami, and it's like,
all right, this shark is literally just swimming mining its business.
(43:13):
Note how it has swam past hundreds of people and
just kept going on.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Its very way. It is not interested in any of you.
But we don't say that about like a squirrel, Like
if a squirrel is running around Central Park, We're not
like man eating squirrels stocks people in Central Park.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Although sometimes like college campus squirrels are legitimately legitimately frightening
because they're so used to humans and they understand that
we have food, and I have there have been squirrels
that have been very intimidating. Also ground squirrels when you're
on the beach and they learn that like humans have food,
(43:54):
they will not leave you alone, like they are determined
and if they're like you have a sandwich, they if
they could kill me for a sandwich, I'm sure they would.
They absolutely have that in them.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
Yeah, but they're mammals and they're furries, so we get
them a past. That's what I've noticed. Yeah, you're a mammal,
we give you a pass. Or like you're like us, Yeah,
you can't be evil.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
I mean it's like.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Because like bears I think are similar. It's like a
similar situation with bears, right, Like, bears can be dangerous, right, Like,
they can hurt and injure a human being, just like
a shirt can hurt and injure a human being. Usually
it's defensive or by accident, but you know, on occasion, yeah,
like it can chomp you up. But then we're like, oh,
(44:41):
but bears are so cute and so cuttly. It's like, well,
they are definitely not cuddly, but we still like to
give them a pass.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
Do you remember that.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I don't remember exactly when it was, but there was
that there was a they had sent like a drone
off the coast of I want to say, somewhere in California.
But like they were just using this drone to like
you know, kind of like survey the area, and they
saw a bunch of sharks and also a bunch of
swimmers and it's like you just saw that there was
(45:15):
this like people who were swimming would not be able
to see these sharks. It was only because they had
this like drone camera footage, and the sharks were completely
ignoring all of the surfers, all of the swimmers, and
there were more sharks than people expected that there would
be in this area, and they were just like, yeah, man, whatever,
I don't I don't really care. I'm not interested in you,
(45:36):
and like usually it's just it was kind of interesting
because some of the response to that was like, oh
my god, there's so many sharks.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
That's so scary.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
But it seems like the response should be like, there's
so many more sharks than we thought, and they're ignoring everyone.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
They have no interest.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
Like I'll go out with friends or family and we'll
go to the beach or something and they'll be like, jasma,
there's sharks in this water. And I'm like, all right,
do me a favor. Stick your finger in the water,
lick your finger. Is it salty?
Speaker 2 (46:15):
And they're like yeah, And I'm like, then there are
sharks confirmed.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
Yes, sharks do live in the ocean. It is it
is their home. There's no such thing as shark infested waters.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
Yes, they live there, there's people.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Yeah, yeah, no, I guess.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
So it's like, ah, sharks in ocean makes headlines. Why,
like you wouldn't go, oh my gosh, there are birds
in the sky.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah I know. I mean, yeah, I think that. Yeah,
it's unfortunate. I think that, you know, jaws and other
sort of a kind of media stories about sharks and
shark attacks are they're so sensationalized, right, Like it's it
makes it seem like these are just vicious predators and
obviously you know they are predators, but for like fish
(47:13):
and seals and crabs and squid. Uh. But you know,
unless they kind of mistake you for one of those things,
you're usually gonna be fine. Like I'm not not saying
like go and find a shark and like put your
hand in its mouth and tease it.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
But you know, for the most part.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Like shark shark attacks are just incredibly rare. It just
is very unlikely to happen. And even if it does happen,
usually they like kind of take an exploratory bite and
they're like, uh, yuck, no, thank you, check please.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah. It sort of wild to me. How how much attention.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
It gets because there's nothing else like that where you
have a story where someone has an interaction with wildlife
and it like is world news if somebody if somebody
dies by a shark attack, it like is literally news
(48:18):
all over the world. It's like headlines all over the world.
And that happens like maybe ten times in a year,
and there are billions of people in this world. I
can't imagine something like being that hyper focused on like
anything else. It's like, ah, this person you know, fell
(48:40):
behind a vending machine and got stuck and died.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Stairs killed so many more people just stares, just get
out and it's it's fine.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
It's whenever people are like, well, I don't want to
go into the ocean because it's I'm scared of sharks,
and I'm like, there's so many fun things to do
in the ocean and like so many fun critters to
see and like things to learn about, and you're gonna
(49:13):
let something like that stop you, Like it's like I
always try to like outweigh yeah, the like sphere with
like ah, but like beaches are fun, cruises are fun.
You know, all of these things are fun. Yeah, they
take place of the ocean. Like you're just never gonna
(49:34):
go into the ocean because you might be one of
the billions and billions and billions of people.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Yeah, world that gets bit by a shark. Yeah, And
I'm like, do you drive?
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Yeah, exactly, like.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
You you could definitely die getting in a car.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Yeah, you've already survived that.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Yeah, You've already survived a much more dangerous activity that day,
which is driving.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
So it's like you, you know, you know how you
make the choice, but like, yes, you could get in
a car accident and you could die, but it's way
better to drive than to not drive. Like, you know,
I'm trying to create that same sense with the ocean,
and like, yes, we obey traffic laws, we put on
(50:23):
our seat belts, we put air bags in our car,
we have all of these safety measures in place. It's
the same thing with sharks. There are lifeguards. You can
do certain things like not swimming at dawn or dusk,
don't swim by you know, floating dead whale carcasses.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Look at it, man, oh man, I really wanted to
swim next to that dead bloated whale carcass.
Speaker 4 (50:49):
You know, like just pay if you're diving, don't go
touching sharks because honestly, most of the shark bites that
we have in the world are provoked, and usually it's
somebody touching a shark. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, you
wouldn't go grab a squirrel in Central Park because guess
what it's gonna bite you. Yeah, don't go grab in
(51:11):
a shark, don't touch them, don't get in their space,
don't swim towards them. Definitely, don't make them feel like
they're cornered.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4 (51:20):
And then the other thing that has happens is like
people are actively in chummed waters or they're spearfishing. Spearfishermen
also have the one of the highest rates of like
having shark bites. It's because they're literally like shooting thing
at you know, fish and it's bloody and it's creating
(51:42):
all of this mess. So yeah, obviously you're going to
have those, you know, increased likelihoods there.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, if you do want to know what it's like
to touch a shark, you could get like a I
don't know, I'd say like two ordred three hundred grit
sandpaper and rub that. That's gonna be kind of what
it feels like. There are aquariums. You'd probably want definitely
go to like a you know, major aquarium for this
(52:12):
so that you know that they're taking care of the
animals well. But like say Monterey Bay Aquarium, they do
have some tanks where they will let you very gently
put your hand in the water and just let a
raise go by, and that also gives you a pretty
good sense of what that feels like. So, yeah, there
are ways to have the experience of what it is
(52:37):
like to touch a shark without actually trying to touch
a shark. And I know they're cute, and I also
want to cuddle them. I want to hold them in
my arms and sing to them, but they won't like that,
so I won't do that.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Yeah, you got to.
Speaker 4 (52:52):
Have in a controlled setting with trained professionals that can
monitor the situation and the shark behavior.
Speaker 3 (53:03):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
Before we go, can you speak a bit about minorities
in shark science and how people could get involved.
Speaker 4 (53:15):
Sure, So, Minorities in Shark sciences or myths as we
call it.
Speaker 3 (53:22):
Good it's a solid acronym.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
Can I just say solid acronym?
Speaker 4 (53:29):
So myths is dedicated to supporting gender, minorities of color,
and folks from the global South that are interested in
marine science, particularly the study of sharks and rays, and
we do that in a number of ways. We serve
what we call ka gray So we have outreach programs
for youth, spring break camps, summer camps, science at the
(53:52):
c days, we go to schools and community groups to
talk about sharks and their relatives. For folks that are
older that are interested in getting into the field, we
have fellowships, internships, We have workshops like professional development workshops,
(54:13):
a huge variety. We try to make it as accessful
as possible, so it's all expenses paid.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
There are three day long.
Speaker 4 (54:24):
Time commitments, there are one month to three months. There's
all sorts of options to engage with marine science in
a meaningful way, even hybrid experiences where it's partially online.
And then we do research, so we help support people
doing research all over the world. We have about five
(54:46):
hundred members representing about thirty four different countries and the
majority of US states and territories, and we support them
in doing their research, particularly focused on in inclusive conservation
and research, where we center the voices of communities that
don't typically get to be heard in science or in
(55:10):
conservation and ways to get involved. We have applications for
programs open pretty much all the time, so you can
go on our website and you can join our mailing
list to stay up to date on opportunities. You can
also on our website find the donation button you can
(55:31):
donate to support us. You can buy swag if you
do want to come touch a shark. We do have
a fundraiser happening right now, which is Shark Scientists for
a Day, where you can buy a ticket and come
and learn about the research that we do. Come on
the boat with us and be a shark scientist for
(55:52):
a day, and by doing that, you allow two of
our participants to get hands on training. So your ticket
pays for two participants in one of our workshops to
get training as well, so that is an option. And
then there's tons of information about our various programs all
(56:16):
on our website. We also are very active on social media.
We're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok nice TikTok.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
I totally understand TikTok. I am completely with it.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
I will takes one of us.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Yes, Shark Talk, I will link to that. I'll put
a link to that website in the show notes and
where and can people pick up your book? Just in
bookstores or online? Where can people get to your book?
Sharks don't sync.
Speaker 4 (56:53):
Yeah, so you can get the book pretty much anywhere
books are sold, So check out your local independent bookstore.
Support independent bookstores. And if you don't have an independent
bookstore that's around you. Barnes and Nobles, Books, a million, Amazon,
all of those places will have it. And it's on
audiobook and it's on ebook, so check with your library.
(57:19):
See if it's in your library. See if it's on Libby.
You can read it an e book, So check that out.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Jasmine.
This was really really fun and I learned a lot
about bon ahead Sharks. Now it's time to play a
little game called guests Who's Squawking? The Mystery Animal sound Game?
Full disclosure, I am recording this in the future, which
I guess is your past, but the future from when I.
Speaker 3 (57:50):
Recorded the rest of the podcast.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
Anyways, So last week's episode was a rerun because I
needed a little vacation.
Speaker 3 (57:59):
It was called.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Lap Camels, and so this was the mystery animal sound
hint from that episode it was you may find these
little dudes booging to an imaginary beat, but it's probably
for the prey that lies beneath their.
Speaker 5 (58:13):
Feet, so cute.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
Congratulations to Sherry Ce for guessing correctly that this is
the American woodcock.
Speaker 3 (58:32):
It is pretty.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Internet famous for walking in a very particular rhythmic fashion,
which is thought to possibly be to create vibrations under
the earth that mimics that of rain, which would then
drive worms up to the surface. But yes, it makes
that adorable little pink sound, and it is also the
(58:53):
bird itself, very very cute. All right, So two weeks
ago we had an episode called Hot Sharks Summer. Highly
recommend listening to that one if you haven't already given
that this one if you liked the sharks on this
when we talk about other sharks there. But the mystery
animal sound hint was this, don't talk with your mouth full.
Speaker 3 (59:26):
Sorry, I can't stop laughing.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
Okay, So congratulations to Ari L.
Speaker 3 (59:33):
M roots K for guessing.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Correctly that this is a harbor seal enjoying a fish
with his snoot in the water.
Speaker 3 (59:43):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
So I'm going to hold off on doing a new
mystery animal sound game because next week I plan to
do a listener Questions episode, so the week after I
will do a new one when I have a guest on.
But yeah, because I'm doing a listener Questions episode next week,
I have not put in writing that. So if you
do have a question that you'd like me to answer,
(01:00:05):
do write in and maybe I'll answer it next week,
maybe sometime in the future, or send you an email.
And I do love your questions, so write to me
at Creature Featurepod at gmail dot com. Thank you guys
so much. Thank you guys for listening. If you are
enjoying the show, if you leave a rating and review,
(01:00:27):
that really does help me and I do actually read
every single one of them. And thanks to the Space
Classics for their super awesome song XO Lumina. Creature features
a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like the one
you just heard, visit the.
Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Or Hey gus, what where have you listened to your
favorite shows? I don't judge you, not your mother, and
I can't tell you what to do except don't poke
a shark unless you are being supervised by experts.
Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
See you next Wednesday. A MHM
Creature Feature News
Host
Katie Goldin
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