The Science of "For All Mankind"

Daniel and Jorge talk about the science of the alt-history science fiction show "For All Mankind".

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Daniel, Are you excited about going to space? You know,
I think that there are plenty of people who are
more excited about taking that journey and I am. So
you're gonna let them go first, and then you're going
I'm gonna wait until they build comfortable suburbs on the
Moon before I go there. So you're gonna buy a
vacation home on the moon. You know, house prices in
southern California are getting pretty steep. I have no idea
where my kids are going to move. What did they

(00:30):
move to the Moon? Would you go visit them? I
might wait until they have grandkids. That's cold, man, not
as cold as the far side of the Moon. I

(00:52):
am poor handmade cartoonist and the creator of pH D comics. Hi.
I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at
UC Irvine, and I love living in southern California. I
do too. It's the best. But it would also be
pretty sunny on the Moon. Right the moon gets a
lot of sun. The moon is either too hot or
too cold. It's kind of like Chicago. I see, you're
like the Goldie Bears of astronauts. You like it just right. Yeah, exactly.

(01:17):
There's that one spot on the rim where it just
stays the right temperature. But it's some pretty thin real
estate on the moon. Now, if your grand kids are
born in the moon, Daniel, would that technically make them aliens?
Extraterrestrials for sure? I don't know about aliens teas right,
that's the same thing as an alien. So maybe I
would finally get to meet aliens. Yeah, there you go,

(01:40):
but only if you go there, all right, I'll commit
to going. If my kids have their own kids on
the moon, I'm in What if they were born on
the moon and their moon Well, I'll just bring some
moon pies. I'm sure we'll get along. Welcome to our podcast,
Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of My
Heart Radio, where we share are over the Moon, an

(02:00):
enthusiasm for understanding the universe, for digging in deep to
all of those tough questions about how everything works, to
wondering about what's out there deep in space that might
be holding answers to the next generation of questions that
scientists are asking. We don't shy away from asking any
of those questions and trying to explain all of the

(02:20):
answers to you. Yeah, because it is a pretty big
universe with a lot of space for us to explore
and go visit and maybe even live out there among
the stars as we continue our journey of humanity, of
exploration and learning about how the universe works. Do you
feel like colonization of space is inevitable? I don't know
if inevitable, but it definitely sounds interesting and fun and

(02:41):
cool and dangerous for the first people who do it.
It's going to be one of those things that starts
out really dangerous and take some brave souls to lay
the groundwork. But after a while people will be like
falling asleep on their commuter shuttles to the moon. Yeah, definitely.
Or the elevator. Can we build an elevator to the Moon?
I think we have a lot of nanotechnology puzzles between
us in a space elevator to build that t well

(03:02):
that's tall enough that it won't snap, because when the
space elevator crashes to the surface, you've got a bad day. Yeah.
I think that's the plot of the New Foundation TV series.
And speaking of TV series, it's interesting to think about
what science fiction and TV writers can come up with
because it does give us ideas about how we can
go and explore space and what would happen if we do.

(03:24):
Because it's not just academics and physicists who are wondering
how the world works and coming up with ideas for
how we might explore it, what we might find. Their
folks like you, out there thinking about the universe, and
also people out there writing stories, people developing alternative universes
in which we do explore space or go further or
discover aliens or discover we are the aliens. On the podcast,

(03:47):
we are big fans of science fiction, of course, and
so we love talking about the science of some of
these alternate universes and hearing about the process of creating them.
Make it sound like maybe a TV shows and science
chain is are kind of simulations of the universe, like
where you can run experiments. Yeah, they're sort of thought
experiments written large, right, thought experiments turned into TV shows. Yeah,

(04:10):
So to the on the podcast will be tackling the
science fiction universe for all mankind. Now, Daniel, this is
a TV show on Apple TV, I think right, Yeah,
it's on Apple TV. They just finished their third season
and they're in the process of making season four. It's

(04:30):
a really fun show for those of us who are
enthusiastic about exploration of space, not just by robots but
by people. But wait, I thought you're not excited about
exploring space or is just excited for other people to
explore space. Thing. I'm excited for people to explore space.
I don't want to be on those trips myself, but
then you won't get to experience the best part of it.

(04:51):
It's like you're you're going to be living vicariously for
the rest of your life. That's okay. I enjoy reading
science fiction and I also enjoy reading science fact. Both
of them are are fun for me, and I think
other people have a better temperament for being test astronauts. Yeah.
So this is kind of part of our series of
episodes where we talk about the television series or films
that have to do with science fiction, and we even

(05:13):
get to talk to some of the writers behind some
of these pieces of work. Yeah, and on today's episodes,
you'll hear my interview with one of the writers for
For All Man Kinds, Sabrina Almeida, who was a really
interesting life story about how she got to be a
science fiction author. Yeah, We'll get to that interview later
in the show, but I guess first let's talk about
the show itself. This is, as we said on Apple TV,

(05:34):
and it's by the creator of Battlestar Galactica, right, Ronald Moore. Yeah,
another really fun show that I enjoyed. Also co created
by Ben Nadivy and Matt Wolport. This show for all
Mankind is really exciting because it explores like an alternative
history and imagines the universe very similar hours. But what
if one important event was different, but such an important

(05:55):
event that it changed to the course of history completely
in a really fascinating eating away. Yeah. There, that's a
pretty interesting idea that I think I've seen in several shows. Right,
He's a there a show out there where like the
Nazis win the Second World War. Yeah, that's the Philip K.
Dick show called The Man in the High Castle. That's
really fun. Not a whole lot of science fiction in it,
but it's definitely an interesting alt history, like what would

(06:15):
our world be like if a few battles had gone differently? Now,
Ronald Moore, he's the creator of this show, and he's
known for Battles for Galactica, but also he used to
write on Star Trek, right, Oh is that right. I
don't know his history. Yeah, I think he used to
work maybe even with Gene Roddenberry. I forget. Maybe on
the Next Generation episode. He's an old hatted sci fi TV.
That is what I'm saying. Well, this show is really

(06:38):
fun because the central event that pivots history in the
show is the space race. We all know that in
our universe, Americans landed on the moon first. Neil Armstrong
was the first human to step on the moon. But
in this alternative universe of for all mankind, it was
the Soviet Union that landed on the moon first. Interesting,

(06:58):
that's right. This is back in the sixties, right, the
big space race. Everyone was trying to get to the
Moon first, and the US did it first. I guess
in reality, how far back or how far behind were
there Russians, because I know they put you know, a
man on the moon the dog like right on the
moon spot Nick. They seem to be ahead for a while,

(07:19):
but then the US kind of blew past them with
the Apollo program. Yeah, that's exactly right. The U s
s are really started off the space race very dramatically.
Sput Nick and the first astronaut orbiting the Earth, and
that really inspired the US to pour a huge amount
of money and energy into the space race, culminating with
them landing on the Moon first. And that lasted a

(07:40):
little while and ended up in the Shuttle program. But
the US are sort of faded in the space race,
and as a response, in our universe, at least the
US did as well, and now we don't spend nearly
as much time or energy on space as we did
back in the sixties when we had like a vibrant rival.
So one of the key conceits of this show is
that the US basically never takes their foot off the pedal.

(08:02):
They just keep pouring time and energy and money into
the space race, and so it flourishes for much longer
than it did in our universe. M So in this history,
the USS are landed on the Moon first, so they
beat the US, and what kind of repercussions does that
have on the history and politics of the US. So
it's a lot of panic in the upper echelons of

(08:23):
the politics of the United States. And in just the
same way that like sput Nick and your Garrion inspired
the US to pour a lot of time and energy
and money into it. The Russians landing on the moon
first meant that the Americans accelerated their program. They put
even more time and energy and money into it. And
then by the time the Americans get to the Moon,
the Russians are already like building a moon base, and

(08:45):
so it just sort of never slows down. They keep
sort of like hopping over each other making these advancements. Wow,
so there are moon bases on the show. Yeah, their
moon bases, and in the recent season they even go
to Mars. It's exciting. Well, we get to later seasons later.
But there's also kind of a fundamental twist about the show,

(09:06):
including sort of a twist on its title. Yeah they
call it for all Mankind. But there's also a very
important twist in politics which is inspired by the Russians
not just putting the first person on the Moon, but
then landing a woman on the moon. And in the show,
female astronauts at NASA are not taken very seriously. It's
all dominated by men. But when the us SR puts

(09:26):
a woman on the moon, that inspires the equal rights
movement in the United States, and so in the show,
for example, the equal Rights Amendment, which in our universe
didn't pass, does pass in the show, And so you
see a lot of women advancing to very high levels
of government and of NASA and playing important roles and
being astronauts, again inspired by the achievements of our adversary,

(09:48):
sort of like making the point that progress is sometimes
best achieved in competition. M interesting. So the Russians there
were the first to put a woman on the moon,
and that inspired the US also, um, like, what's the
pressure there, I guess, because if you can get both
sexes on the moon, then you can have a colony.
There is that the idea? Because that wouldn't make the
US are worried. In the show, it's sort of just

(10:10):
embarrassed the US. It's spotlight of the fact that the
US was not taking their female astronauts seriously. And also
I think inspired activists in the US to push for
gender equality. When you see that something is possible, you
have role models, you have something to shoot for, is
something to point to. I think it makes your activism
more powerful, right, because I think that maybe the main character,

(10:32):
the central protagonist of the show is a woman, right,
a woman astronaut. All convice I know nothing of the show.
I haven't seen it, so I'm just going from what
I've seen of trailers and billboards. It usually features a
woman in a space suit. Yeah, there is certainly an
astronaut who plays an important role, and there's another woman
who becomes the administrator of NASA, and then eventually they

(10:53):
have a woman president on the show things that we
have not yet achieved in our own universe. Yeah, it's
pretty sad. And the show sort of takes place across
multiple decades, right, Like, it doesn't just start off in
the sixties with the space rate. It actually kind of
moves a decade with each season. That's exactly right. So
they're showing like the ripple effects downstream of all these

(11:15):
changes of history, and it's fascinating because they're having to
imagine another universe with all the downstream effects of all
of this research, some of which like boosts computer technology,
but maybe they haven't made other discoveries that we have made.
So it's a really fun just like window into an
alternative view of what our lives it might be like, now,
do they take this butterfly ripple effect to the extreme,

(11:37):
like do their clothes change or do people in the
eighties alternate universe still dressed like they do in the eighties.
People in the nineties alternate universe still dressed like people
in our nineties universe. But do they still have hammer pants?
Nothing can stop mc hammer. I mean, he's just a
force in the multiverse, so there's nothing you can do.
They do take it seriously that they don't focus as

(11:59):
much on fast and they think about like technology, you know,
consumer technology. For example, they have like electric cars in
their universe much earlier than we do. They have people
communicating on video screens, but they don't have like small
devices as fast as we do. So it's interesting because
in some areas they are more advanced. In other areas
they are less advanced. It's kind of like, I guess

(12:21):
the Star Wars universe where they have warp drives, but
they have like terrible computer graphics under computer interface. Minimalist
computer graphics. You don't need any more than that, man,
just like the old computer games. We're just as good
as today's computer games. You don't need fancy graphics, that's right.
You don't need millions of pixels. You should be like
five to have fun. Right, Maybe you want to aim

(12:42):
the desk on. All you need is that one color screen,
you know, glowing green now, because I guess you know.
The idea is that in our real history, the space
rays really kind of boosted science and technology in the
US and around the world, where if you put more
emphasis on the space race, who knows how that could
have affected the technology we have today. Yeah, anytime you

(13:03):
invest in basic research, you see the downstream effects technologically
and economically. A lot of the advancements we have in
computer technology and miniaturization were motivated by a desire to
go to space, and also of course weapons research to
shrink stuff and put it on warheads. So anytime you're
pouring money into basic research and these kind of new technologies,
you're gonna discover stuff and that's going to lead to

(13:24):
new technologies and that's going to change the way everybody lives. Yeah.
Like for example of Velcro I hear really got to
boost from the space program. Like you know, you maybe
wouldn't have all the Velker we have today if it
wasn't for the Apollo program, right, because they needed a
way to stick things to the wall in zero gravity.
Also astronaut ice cream, right, we wouldn't have that if

(13:44):
we didn't have astronauts important culinary advancements. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So season one takes place in the sixties or seventies.
Season one takes place in the seventies, just after the
Russians have landed on the Moon, and then it's a
jump in the end, and these in twos in the eighties.
Season three is in the ninety nineties, and we've heard

(14:05):
recently this season four is going to be in the
two Thousand's interesting. I wonder if they'll still have you know,
historical events like September eleven. Maybe. Yeah, it's really fun.
They do use characters from our history. You know, Reagan
and Clinton are there, though Clinton loses the ninety two
election to a Republican woman, for example, And so you
get these fun little nuggets of familiar history that have

(14:28):
been changed in interesting ways. Well, there's a lot of
science and I guess imaginary science here to unpact about
this show, to maybe stimulate some interesting discussions about space
and space tourism and space technology. So let's get into that.
But first let's take a quick break. All right, we're

(14:58):
talking about the science fiction Universe for All man Kind,
which is a television show and Apple TV, Daniel, do
you subscribe to Apple TV? Are they paying you to
dors the show? They're paying me in apples? Yes, No,
I'm a subscriber to Apple TV. I like a lot
of the stuff on there. I like that show Severance.
Have you seen that one Severance? Yes? Absolutely, I love

(15:19):
that show. Great speculative fiction, really high concept and very
well delivered. Also, what's the what's the show about the
video game company Mythic Questic Quest. That's a pretty good one,
that one I think is mocking video game companies, but
it does have a One of the characters is a
science fiction writer. Though you might be interested in that,

(15:40):
they make so much fun of him that is not fair.
He's one of the main path as characters. There we
are talking about the show for All Mankind, which is
science fiction by the creator of Battlestar Galactica. And that
was another fun show, right, That was another fun show,
really cool clever ideas. I like shows that have an
interesting new concept, take you to some new world and

(16:00):
really explore how it works. One of the things I
really liked about For All Mankind is that it really
does show you the scientific challenges of this doesn't just
like Dot dot dot their way to the Moon and
YadA YadA YadA their way to Mars. It really explores
like what would it take? What would be hard about it?
Are you saying they have a lot of these discussions
on screen, Like on the show they're talking about stand

(16:21):
in front of a blackboard or white board and working
out equations. They're not doing math on screen as much
as the whole structure of the show is about the
struggle against nature right to get to the Moon. It's
a huge endeavor. It's like climbing them out Everest. When
you do that, you have to plan, you need your resources,
you need to overcome obstacles, and so the whole show
is about how to overcome the obstacles to get to

(16:43):
the Moon, and to build a base there and to
run it and to staff it and what happens when
things go wrong. So's a lot of really interesting science
puzzles there, and how to make money on the Moon,
and lots of fun questions that they explore. M maybe
they should call the show Against All Gravity instead, because
I guess it is really hard to get to the
moon right. First of all, it just takes an enormous
amount of energy to leave the Earth, right, because you

(17:06):
have to accelerate up to ridiculous speed. Right, You do
need a lot of energy to leave the Earth, especially
if you're going to carry a lot of stuff up there.
You want to build a moon base, you want to
transport supplies, It does take a lot of energy to
just lift that stuff off the surface of the Earth.
So when strategy they explore is to try to build
a moon base and then try to find materials on

(17:27):
the Moon that you can use to sustain your moon
base so you don't need to be shipping everything from
Earth all the time. Yeah, you said that. The big
part of the plot as then trying to figure out
how to build moon bases, because I guess having a
moon base gives you a strategic position, you know, if
you're the U S against the USSR, right, Like, just
having a base there maybe gives you, who knows, some

(17:49):
some sort of strategic advantage. I'm not an expert on
space warfare strategy, but I think the idea is that
having a base out there does give you a strategic
advantage for later, for example, expl oring the Solar System.
It's much easier to launch from the Moon than it
is to launch from Earth. So if you can build
industry on the Moon, for example, then you can fabricate
satellites and ships and all sorts of stuff to explore

(18:11):
the rest of the Solar System. And there is unfortunately
a militarization of the Moon basis that happens, and even
some shooting. Now. I guess it must be kind of
a hard sell though, because like in our real history,
we said, we kind of dropped the idea of going
to the Moon and establishing a base there, right, because
I guess it's just really hard. It is really hard
and really expensive to live on the Moon. And I

(18:32):
think that one of the points of the show is
that the motivation in our universe to do that, a
lot of it really did come from politics, come from
like national pride, Like we're racing against the Russians. Does
it really make scientific sense to build laboratories on the Moon?
Do we really need those resources? I think in some
sense it really was just motivated by a desire to

(18:52):
beat the Russians more than like the actual scientific goals themselves.
It's more about ego maybe than any practical desire. But
as you said, it is important for exploration, and maybe
now that people are thinking about like mining the asteroids fields,
or you know, privatizing Mars. Then now it becomes maybe
an advantage to have a base on the Moon. And

(19:14):
if you do think about the deep future of humanity,
it seems like almost inevitable that we will have to
get off this planet if we don't want to be
vulnerable to comments and asteroids that might obliterate us and
destroy our civilization. And the Moon is sort of an
easy stepping stone. It's pretty close, it's fairly hospitable compared
to other places. There are some useful resources up there.

(19:36):
You can still get stuff from Earth if you need.
It's not nearly as far away, for example, as Mars
or the asteroid belt, so it is a useful sort
of like testing ground for figuring out how to build
a colony. Yeah, it's got all the cheese you need.
I mean, what else you need? No, I'm just kidding,
but I guess maybe step us through. What are some
of the hard things about building a base on the
Moon and living there. One of the hardest things about

(19:58):
building a base on the Moon is finding water. Like
people need water, plants need water to grow. If you're
not going to be constantly shipping water from Earth. Then
you have to find a source of it on the Moon.
And this plays a big role in the plot. They're
like digging around on the Moon to try to find
water deposits because there is water in the moon technically, right,

(20:18):
there is water on the moon. Yeah, So the Moon
is covered mostly by this stuff called regleth, which is
like the shattered surface of the Moon blown up again
and then falling down as dust and then shattered again.
And it seems kind of dry if you're up there,
just like kicking in there's dust. There is water in there,
like there's some water mixed in with the regal lith.
It is possible to filter the water out of the

(20:40):
surface of the Moon and to get some but it
takes a lot, Like it's pretty dry stuff. It's about
as wet as like concrete. Well, so if you're thirsty
on the Moon, you literally have to suck concrete. But
is it in the form of ice or is it
like what you see a drip or pool in any way,
or is it just kind of like crystals, You know,
it's crystals, and there's just not a whole lot of

(21:01):
it on average. If you, for example, processed like six
tons of surface material on the Moon, you'd get about
three kilograms of water, which is about one human's daily
dose of water. So that's six tons of material in
order to get one person's supply of water for one day.
There are some spots in the Moon that we think
have more water deposits, like near the poles where it's

(21:25):
always dark. Are these like tall mountains with crevasses in
them where we think like comets may have smashed in
and left their ice millions of years ago and it
might still be there. So we think there might be
like deposits of frozen water on the Moon that you
can access that are a little richer than just filtering
it out of this regal life. Do they think there's
water under the surface, like I know on Mars they

(21:47):
think there are maybe underground oceans. There's no evidence for
vast underground deposits of water on the Moon. Is either
filtering it either regal life, or finding it on the
surface from these commetary deposits sort of near the poles
where you have these places called craters of eternal darkness.
All right, so then the Moon is b y O
W bringing your own water obviously, But then there's other difficulties, right, Like,

(22:09):
it's not easy to like grow plants there. Yeah, plants
need nutrients from the soil, and the stuff up there
is pretty tough. You know. They have grown plants on
the Moon. The Chinese did it last year. They brought
some seeds up and they grew them up there on
the Moon, which is cool on the Moon. Wait, what
did they like they have a base there or just

(22:29):
on their little lander. They did it just on their
little lander. They did some experiments. Yeah, it's pretty cool,
and they grew technically, but they didn't like grow very well.
They didn't exactly flourish. The plants that grow in the
Moon sort of look like plants that are stressed out
all the time. It's not like a happy place for
plants to grow. So it would be pretty challenging to
have like a farm on the Moon. Yeah. I guess

(22:50):
I would be pretty stressed out if I was a
tiny capsule in the middle of space there. But I
guess Thankfully they didn't grow on the Moon. It grew
on like a pod in a little spaceship. Is it
possible to grow things like on the lunar soil? One
challenge there is the moon has almost no carbon on
its surface, and carbon is important. You and I need carbon,

(23:11):
plants need carbon. All of life is based on carbon.
We call it organic chemistry when there is carbon in
the molecule, and the Moon has almost no carbon. Actually, interestingly,
some of the richest sources of carbon on the Moon
are with the Apollo astronauts left. You know, they're quote
unquote waste. You mean they're poop, Yes, exactly, that's one
of the biggest sources. Like how much how much do

(23:33):
they poop? Just a normal amount, But there really just
is not very much carbon on the Moon. I guess
that's one way to get carbon up there. But I
guess you also need air to grew plants, right, do
you have to bring your own air as well? You
need to bring your own error, And you need carbon,
You need oxygen in order to make the atmosphere that
plants need, You need nitrogen. So a lot of these
things you just can't find on the Moon. So a

(23:54):
moon base really pretty tough. On top of that, the
Moon has really really terrible weather, Like not only is
it really really hot in the sun and really really
cold in the darkness, but also there's a huge amount
of radiation, like you'll get cancer really quick on the
Moon if you don't have a lot of shielding. Right,
it's sort of like being out there in orbit where

(24:15):
you're you don't have the atmosphere that we have here
on Earth to absorb a lot of that radiation from space. Yeah,
and the Moon has is really interesting geological history where
we think that there was a lot of lava flow
a while ago before it cooled, and so there are
these huge lava tubes like where lava once flowed through
and left these like just tunnels underground. They estimate to

(24:37):
have billions of cubic meters of space and those are
awesome because they're underground, so they're shielded. Right. If you're
in one of these lava tubes, you're shielded from the
radiation of space. You're saying that these could be potential
places to live in m Yeah, So if you're imagining
living on the Moon and having like the best view
of Earth ever, it's more likely you live on the

(24:58):
Moon underground in the darkness. Well, it might appeal to
some people people who are already living in basement apartments.
They're like, what exactly, it's not much of an upgrade
or downgrade for them, but they talk about this a
lot on the show, and they take it really seriously.
The astronauts think about radiation. There's one important scene where

(25:19):
there's a solar storm and the astronauts have to scramble
to get into a lava tube to protect themselves as
long ranging impacts on one of the astronauts. It's really
quite interesting. But also in the show, they don't just
have DASA and the USS are. They also have private
industries up there playing a role in the space race.
Interesting like the space x is or the Jeff Bezos

(25:39):
of the world are getting on the action here on
the Moon. They are exactly And there's a company in
this show called Helios, which is probably a stand in for,
you know, some combination of SpaceX and Blue Origin. And
they have a really cool idea for these companies, which
is that they're not just doing space tourism and not
just launching satellites, etcetera, etcetera. They're actually getting into business

(26:00):
on the Moon. And in the show they make billions
and billions of dollars on fusion using fuel that they
find on the Moon. Interesting, you mean, they're not just
making money by opening a water stand or selling carpet.
What do they fuse and what are they finding on
the Moon and that they're fusing so on the Moon
in real life, like in our universe, there's this isotope

(26:22):
of helium called helium three. It's two protons and one neutron.
Usually helium is like helium four two protons and two neutrons.
But helium three, it's something which we have almost none
of on Earth, and there is some of it on
the Moon, and scientists like again in our universe, this
is not science fiction. I think that is a really
good source of fuel for fusion. M No, this is

(26:44):
on the Moon like mixed in with the soil or
is it floating as an atmosphere of the moon. Does
the Moon have an atmosphere? The Moon has almost no atmosphere. Actually,
it has an exosphere, has like a very loose collection
of particles is sort of like float around it and
get diffused. We have an episode about the atmosphere of
the moon came out recently. But the helium three is

(27:06):
deposited on the surface of the Moon. Actually, the helium
three is like produced by the Sun. It's in the
solar wind. It goes everywhere in the solar system. It
just lands on the surface of the Moon because the
Moon has no atmosphere to like deflect it or break
it up, so sort of like deposited on the surface
of the Moon by the Sun. And so it's in
crystal form or what because they I normally think of

(27:26):
helium is gas right now, this would be in crystal form,
but it's really tiny amounts, so it might even just
be like individual particles. We're talking super duper rare, like
four to ten parts per billion on the surface. So
if you pick up like a billion kilograms of surface,
it'll have like four to ten ms of helium three.

(27:47):
So on the show, there's maybe a private company that
wants to go to the Moon and mind this helium
three to make fusion. But why is this good for fusion?
Why not just use the hydrogen on Earth? So you
could just use hydrogen on Earth. Helium three is thought
to be better for fusion because it doesn't release any
neutrons like normally when you do fusion, you fuse hydrogen

(28:08):
together particular isotopes tritium and deuterium that have extra neutrons
because those are easier to fuse, and then you get energy.
Ip you also get neutrons out, and those neutrons fly
out and they will irradiate your reactor. So you run
a fusion reactor for a few years, eventually it becomes
radioactive itself, and so that's bad. So helium three doesn't

(28:28):
release any extra neutrons because it has fewer neutrons. It
just releases energy in terms of like photons, so it's safer.
It's a nice alternative to hydrogen burning cool. So the
show is not just about engineering and math, it's all
about business. Who is also above business though, I do
have to say that helium three fusion is a cool idea,

(28:50):
but I'm not really sure it's a great business idea.
I mean, we haven't even figured out how to do
hydrogen fusion, and helium fusion is harder and it's not
like this a lot of it on the moon. So
to make this business work, you have to figure out
hydrogen fusion, then helium fusion, and also figure out a
way to mind this very rare source of fuel on
the surface of the Moon. So I guess you're saying

(29:12):
it's kind of a stretch that there would be a
company that thinks this is a good business idea. Nobody
here on Earth is investing in it right now. For example,
if it was such a great idea and there was
billions of dollars, Elon Musk would be working on it.
Or it could be a great opportunity. You could beat
Elon Musk to it. That's right, listeners, send us your billions, No,
please don't. All right, Well, another interesting business that you

(29:33):
can have in space is space tourism, and so let's
get into that, and also Daniel's interview with one of
the writers of the show, Sabrina Almida. But first let's
take another quick break. All right, we're talking about the

(29:57):
science fiction Universes for All man Kind TV show, and
you said their business is trying to get to the
Moon to build bases there, and it's part of it
also to build you know, theme parks and hotels there.
They do actually build a hotel in space, a giant
rotating wheel in space, a space hotel that opens up

(30:17):
in the beginning of season three weight not on the Moon,
just in space, not on the Moon. Yeah, in space,
like a giant rotating wheel and rotating so that you
can get like gravity from the rotation, from the centrifugal effects. Right,
because I guess that's cheaper to film because I imagine
if you're base your whole episode on the Moon, you
have to show people kind of floating around some right,

(30:38):
because there's less gravity on the Moon. That's true. Season
two has a lot of action on the Moon. People
running on the surface, people chasing each other. There's a
whole lot of Moon related action in season two. It's
a lot of fun. And they float and they sort
of float. You know when you run on the Moon,
you don't exactly float. You also don't run normally, do
this sort of like floaty leaps from step to step. Right,

(30:59):
because I saw that movie with Brad Pitt at Astra
and they have some action scenes on the moon surface
that are pretty exigning in low gravity, but then they
show you inside the moon base it's like regular gravity.
That doesn't make sense. I don't know how they do that.
I fell asleep halfway through. That movie was so boring.
All right, So there's a tourism and there's also something

(31:20):
interesting about the show is how they do technology, like
spaceship technology. Yes. Season three is like a race to
Mars and they try all sorts of different strategies, like
one group is launching from the surface of the Moon.
Another group is launching from Earth, and yet another one
is building a ship in orbit and then taking it
to Mars from there, not starting from the Moon or

(31:42):
from Earth. And so it's sort of a fun way
for them to tell us, to teach us about the
challenges of each of these approaches. And I guess how
realistic is it. I think it's pretty realistic. You know,
they really think about the challenges in each case, how
much more rocket fuel you need to launch from Earth,
the benefits of launch from the Moon, but also the disadvantages. Right,
the Moon has certain resources on it, silkn aluminium, magnesium,

(32:06):
but it doesn't have, for example, what you need to
manufacture rocket fuel, right, that's water. To make rocket fuel,
you need to take H two O and separated and
then use that hydrogen to make like methane or something
like that. And the Moon just doesn't have carbon or
hydrogen in vast amounts that you need to make that fuel. Wait, wait, wait,
what to make rocket fuel? You make it out of water.

(32:27):
There's lots of different ways to synthesize fuel. One good
way is to start from water, you know. And when
they actually do get to Mars, that's what they start doing.
And they find a water deposit, and then they take
the water and they split it into H two and
O two O two for breathing of course, and the
hydrogen they can then combine with carbon to make like methane,

(32:47):
which is a good rocket fuel, so you don't have
to ship it all from Earth. Interesting, I aside, rocket
fuel was made from fossil fuels, but we can make
it out of nothing. When don't we use rocket fuel
in our cars? Then I think it's pretty expensive stuff.
But yeah, you could synthesize all of these compounds. Is
just cheaper to dig it up from underground where it's
been synthesizing itself for millions of years, right, Right, But

(33:09):
we're going to run out of fossil fuels at some point.
I guess maybe it's not cost efficient to make rocket
fuel out of water, right, Like maybe you have to
put in more energy then you get out of it.
But you can still make some to use for rockets. Yeah,
you need another source of power, probably solar power or something,
in order to break the water into H two and
O two. Is more about making the fuel, which is
like a compact energy battery. It's like a chemical battery,

(33:31):
basically storing energy in this form so that you can
use it to launch. We do have some propulsion technology
like ion drives, which can just be electric powered, but
they don't typically have the thrust to launch you from
a surface. They can gently push you in space, but
they can't typically launch you from the gravity well of
a planet. And so that's how they plan to go

(33:51):
to Mars using nuclear power, and so they have a
few different approaches. But yeah, they have nuclear powered spaceships
here which have like ion drives. They take the ener
degenerated by the nuclear power plant and they turn that
into ions which they shoot out the back of the ship.
We have a whole episode about navigating around the Solar
System and how all these drives work, if you want
to dig into that a little bit. But it's really
fun to watch them all racing two Mars and the

(34:13):
choices they have to make, like you take an orbit
around Mars first before you try to land, or you
just try to land first. It's really interesting and very exciting.
Do they make it or is it a Is that
a spoiler? That's a big spoiler? Man? All right, Well,
you had a chance to talk to one of the
writers of the show, Sabrina Almida. Has she been with
the show from the beginning. She hasn't. They brought her

(34:34):
on after season two, so she's been writing in this
most recent season. She's part of the writer's room, but
she also has her name on one of the specific episodes.
And when I talked to her, they were in the
middle of working on season four. And she's interesting because
she has a background in aerospace engineering. She's an actually
like almost austronaut. Yeah, she has her credentials from M

(34:54):
I T. And then she crossed over and decided she
wanted to be a creative type. So that must be
a familiar story to you. Started as an engineer and
ended up as a creative type. She took a detour
into making commercials for banks along the way. You'll hear
her whole story and ask her about it in the interview.
Maybe she can aspire to one day host her own podcast.
I mean, that must be the pinnacle of any creative's career.

(35:15):
All right, Well, here is Daniels interview with For All
Mankind writer Sabrina Almida. Okay, so then it's my great
pleasure to welcome to the program Sabrina Almida. Thank you
very much for joining us and talking to us about
your exciting work on for All Mankind. That's why pleasure
to be here. Thanks for showing the interests and inviting me.

(35:36):
So first, let's get to know you a little bit.
Tell us a little bit about your background, how you
got into science fiction writing and getting to work on
this exciting television project. I always wrote a lot on
the side. I always thought I'd be following the path
of math and science. I came to the US from
Brazil and I didn't know in the English, so the
only area that I could continue in school and keep

(35:57):
up it was math. So I was huge like math doork,
and then I became the science doork and I go
to the physics as fun events in high school for fun.
I went to my tea to pursue aerospace engineering, did
a few years of studying in it, and during that
time I got to do a lot of cool things.

(36:17):
I got to help with some research on satellite anomaly data.
I got to work summers at JPL do internships and
uh that progressed into designing command sequences for the Cassini spacecraft,
and I got a hand in changing some of the
flight rules. But all this time I was also taking

(36:39):
classes classes like French film classics and Hong Kong cinema
and suffice such a say, by the time by by
the time I graduated, not with an engineering degree, I
applied to film school and got to see and that's
where I home down that the love was really in

(36:59):
the writing portion. And uh. From there, I started a
family unintentionally with my on again, off again boyfriend. And
upon graduating, I, you know, I try to stay in
the industry, but I was just helping maybe mixed people's films,
doing second camera and credited on reality projects on weekends.

(37:23):
And that became a gig of uh, doing corporate videos
for banks, which isn't the reason I went to film school,
but that was, you know, a much steadier gig. And
it took I did that. I was just doing that
for years and years, and it took my brother getting
diagnosed with brain cancer or terminal prognosis, and that's when
I realized, oh my god, life is so short, I'm

(37:46):
wasting mine. And then I finally started writing every day.
And it took took some years for me to get
wrapped and break into the industry. Wow. Well, congratulations, that's
quite a story. I love hearing when people's hobbies become
their susitions, become their life's work, and then they get
to actually do it for their day job. That's so inspirational.
So for all of our science fiction writer guests, we

(38:06):
ask them three questions to help us orient where they
are in the sort of science fiction universe. So here's
a question about Star Trek philosophy. Do you think that
the transporters in Star Trek kill you and clone you
or actually transport your atoms somewhere else? Oh wow, that's
such a great question. I think I wouldn't use the
word kill, but I don't think they're physically moving your atom.

(38:31):
So yes, I think you're being reformulated. When you want
to talk about consciousness or so or what happens as
the matters being use for the things in one end
and reformulated on the other. I don't know that i'd
say you're killed, but I think you're reformulated. Okay, So
would you be willing to step into a transporter be
torn apart and three D printed on the other side,

(38:53):
if there's enough data, if enough people before me did it,
if the ray of lack of success is law enough
yet and depends where I want to go, all right?
Second question is what technology that you see in science
fiction would you most like to see become reality. I
think anything that lets us if we could travel faster
than light. I think because part of me is inclined

(39:16):
to solve Earth found problems, but we don't need to
do that. If we can travel faster than light, then
I definitely think there are the worlds that we could
live in a habitate if we not. If when you know,
we finished just one off, whether it's us or just Sun,
so then what is your personal answer to the Fermi paradox?

(39:37):
If the universe and the galaxy are old and there
are rocky planets everywhere, why have an aliens made themselves
known so far? Well? I think they're They're a few possibilities.
One is they have we just aren't able to receive
the information, right, They've done it in a way that
we don't perceive it, and they're like why aren't they answering?

(39:58):
That's one version of it, And one is we're just
not that interesting rights that It's like I don't know,
like why haven't we tried to communicate with bacteria? Like
we're just worth the time. And then another one is
just simply how spread outs. I don't know, you could?
You know? Basically we just haven't. Uh. If you think

(40:19):
about the vastness of the investment, there's just nobody from
near bode. I don't presume we're the most intelligent life form.
I don't presume. I'm more likely to assume that where
the Laura them. Alright, So then about for all mankind?
I love the show because it puts us in this

(40:39):
alternative reality where the space races again an important part
of our national identity, and governments are spending boatloads of
money to make breakthrough in space technology. So what's exciting
to you about these themes in this world? Why is
it fun to write in that universe? I really like
the idea of coming together for something bigger than yourself.
But it's also something epic, right, So there there's there's

(41:01):
the glory of the achievement for the individual players involved.
There's ego and striving, and these are all people on
top of their game to be able to be involved
in these endeavors. So there's the what the individual ego wants.
But you can't make things of that magnitude happen unless
you you collaborate. So you take all these A lot

(41:23):
of these people are Taipei, are really competitive or really
into the thing they're into, but then they have to
compromise or work together to communally make something happen. And
then I just think the steaks are huge, and I
love when you put huge stories to steaks. So those
are some of what I like, you know, And it's

(41:44):
just it's just such a shame the amount of funding
and the lack of priority of how review uh space exploration,
it's a travesty. Well, I'm inspired by what you say
about people coming together to solve a problem. But in
the show, there's also a competitive aspect, right, there's national
pride and there's national security, and here in our universe,

(42:07):
science often appeals to national pride. Like in my field
particle physics, we say we have to discover the Higgs
Boson before the Europeans, though they certainly beat us to it.
Sometimes though it leads to disasters like projects getting canceled
halfway through. What do you think the role is for
nationalism in science? Are the characters in the show just
like exploiting that to get their science done? Or do

(42:27):
you think it's sincere on their part, and how do
you think we should handle that in our world. I
am not a nationalist personally, I'm a humanist. So I
think the way we do things in the name of
nationalism and the way we treat borders, you know, a
hundred a thousand years from now, it will be viewed
a lot differently, much like a post slavery society. There's

(42:48):
still slavery in the world, but in much minute amounts
a post slavery society view slavery. I was like, oh
my god, that's horrible. I can't believe they did that.
I think hopefully in the like a few hundred years,
nationalism will be viewed the same way. Maybe because I'm
an immigrant, I'm not a very nationalist kind of person. However,
I think our characters, for some of them, it's very

(43:10):
it's very sincere, for example, for Ed Baldwin. But for
other characters like Margot Madison, it is about the science.
It's not about the science for the glory of the
United States. And I think we hit upon that in
some of the way that she's collaborating with Sergey, thinking
while we're helping advanced science, you know she's not thanking.

(43:30):
Oh let me be train my country. So it's it's
really about what can I do for the science. And
if a way to drum up funding is to point
out the Riberry, great, but for her, I think it's
science first. So speaking of science first, many of the
plot lines revolve around scientific obstacles. You know, they have
to solve some specific technical problem, and you guys aren't

(43:51):
just like fuzzing over the details and you know, dot
dot dot, they make it over there. So tell us
a little bit about the writing process. Do you guys
come up with story arcs and then figure out this
science to make it work, or do you start with
the science and the challenges presented by it and then
think about how your characters will navigate it. What's the
writing process like? So the first several weeks, it depends

(44:11):
how many weeks, but each season is a little different.
But we'll spend time in the beginning of the season
during something we called blue skying, where no idea is
the wrong idea, and we'll talk about possible arcs for
the characters and directions we want to go. And during
that time it's not about the science. However, if we

(44:33):
hit like big areas we think we might wanna go into.
We have a researcher, we have technical advisor, and we'll,
you know, we'll just make sure that we're vaguely in
a space that's okay, and then we'll figure out the
details closer to breaking down that episode. If we think
there's gonna be a landslide or Mars Clake. We just

(44:58):
want to know if we can being that, you know,
being that without figuring out the details until we get
to the episode. So big moves we run by early,
but then the details they happen more when we are
into that specific episode. And you have a real scientific background,
as we just heard about, so I imagine that in
the writer's room you might be like pushing for the

(45:20):
story to be as accurate as possible. Is there a
whole spectrum of voices there where people are like, oh,
don't worry so much about the science, and other people
like gritting their teeth if the details aren't right, How
do you guys resolve that kind of stuff? Everybody cares
to some extent about the science, and we understand that
that's what this is one of the things that makes
us show special. The amount of worry that each particular

(45:42):
writer has varies. You know, some people are like, whatever,
I'm strouble figure it out, and other people like, I
don't know if I can you know, I don't know
if we can do that. So it definitely does vary,
and you know, like, okay, how people talk to each
other about it Occasionally, like somebody will draw something on
a post it and put them from their zoom screen

(46:05):
to try to like compate or explain something. But again,
when it really becomes an issue, our show runners are
not relying on the writers. We had two people that
were very pivotal to us getting the science right and
in the room every day. We had Erica Hatfa with us.

(46:25):
She was our researcher and uh she's a former scientist
with a PhD. And she would look up information at
the moment live as we we were talking and pitching
and working and also send us a great information at
the end of every day and every few weeks every
few months, we'd have um former astronaut Garett Riceman come

(46:50):
in and either talk to us about the directions we
were going the story or actually review every single episode
and change get made also based on his expertise. Well
I'm just glad to hear that science plays such a
big role. You can definitely see it in the show.
How the science like changes the path of the story,
and it's often a story about conflict between people, but

(47:12):
often it's a story about conflict between you know, people
and nature. I also want to ask you about the
sort of all history aspect of it from a gender
point of view. There's a moment a show when the
U s s are surprised everybody by putting a woman
on the moon, which sort of like supercharges equal rights
in the US. How does it feel to you to
write about a world where women play a more prominent

(47:33):
role in science and in politics. Do you see this
as a way to shine a light on continuing gender
issues in science and like in your industry here? Yeah, no,
I think it's absolutely fantastic that we have female characters
that are playing more than the love interests of another
character and are doing more than just motivating male characters storylines.

(47:56):
I joined in season three, so that's one of the
main reasons I wanted to join. I was like, oh, wow, like,
I love how the show treats women and it's a
very grounded show. So as soon as we say, okay,
the Ego Rights Amendment past, we're saying that means a
lot of things are different. So it's not weird if

(48:19):
we have so many women. It's realistic to have so
many women in such prominent roles because how they Ego
Rights Amendment pass probably, you know, it would have spend
things up. So I think it's still grounded because we're
it's based on a different history. I mean, women are
in a bunch of prominent positions in science and politics,
just at lower numbers than they are in our show.

(48:41):
So one of my favorite episodes of the show is
one that you specifically have your name on as the writer.
I know there's a whole process there with the writer's room,
but I wanted to hear more about writing this episode.
It's episode three oh five, when they arrive on Mars.
There's an attempt to land, but they can't make it
because of bad visibility, and somebody else lands and they
have this exciting scene about race to be the first
person to step onto the soil of Mars. Can you

(49:04):
tell us about what it was like to write that episode?
But with the challenges for you as a writer balancing
the science and the drama. One of the challenges was
how do we make timing realistic. We were talking about
you know, you're approaching Mars, and then you do a
burn to get into an orbit around Mars, and then
you do a de orbit burn, and then you do
a landing burn, and just figuring out the timing of

(49:29):
when you're making the decisions. You know, if you make
the decision to go around once more and somebody doesn't,
there's a big gap there until you come back around again.
And we wanted to keep that excitement of not knowing
who's going to make it so exactly when to pull
the plug on the decision making, also when do you

(49:50):
find out what and how? At one point we had
talked about breaking a communication antenna. At one point we
had parachutes, I know for the size of sojourn are
one uh with real day technology wouldn't have peara shutes,
but just to give us something dramatic that can go wrong.
So there were those talks of like do we break something,

(50:14):
do they have to change something mid landing? But there
was enough tension just between who's gonna land first, and
we didn't feel like we had to break something in
the process of something does break after they land, but
that we didn't have to break something in the process
of the landing. Also, originally it was written as a
vertical landing for um so Journ or one, but that

(50:37):
would have presented some challenges for production for actually shooting it,
so we changed the landing. But it was it was
that feel like that, but it got changed very cool.
So I also pulled some of our listeners for questions
to ask you. Here's a couple from them. First question
was do they have the whole four season story are

(50:57):
plotted out or is this sort of organic that it
develops from season to season. So much before I ever
joined the show, there was a plan. There was a
plan for more than the four seasons that have been announced.
So you know, uh, when writers pitch and sell a show,
they have a vision not just for the first season

(51:18):
but for the entirety of the show. So there was
definitely a vision for the whole show. In terms of
how much we are adhering to that, it's changing as
you actually hit a season. You still keep the north
star of where you hope the show ends eventually someday,
but how you're getting their changes as you're learning and

(51:40):
discovering about your characters awesome. And then the last question
from listeners was, folks wanted to understand better how it
was possible for the Russians the Americans to not notice
North Korea launching and landing on Mars. How do you
guys figured that out from a story point of view.
So our idea was that it was supposed to be

(52:01):
an unman probe, a very large unman probe that crashed.
So the surprise is that it's not that they had
that launch. They knew something was launched for North Korea
to Mars. The surprise is that, oh my god, this
wasn't a man. So they saw it when I left Earth,
they knew, you know, it was just one of the

(52:22):
failed North Korean launches to Mars. Nobody thought it was man.
North Korea didn't make a big deal of it because
it wasn't successful. All right, excellent, Well, thanks very much.
We're answering all of my questions, and the listeners can
follow your work on this show. You have other projects
that you'd like to tell us about that we might
be able to check out your writing and other venues,

(52:43):
novels or television or other shows. I got to work
on the first season of Steal Team that's currently on
Paramount Plus, that was originally on CBS, and I had
the pleasure of working on the first room that got
together for Ander on Disney Plus, as happens very often
in TV. Later they brought in another crew and ultimately

(53:05):
became Tony Gilroy's room, and I got to work on
Section thirty one that so hasn't made it to air,
which is a Star Trek show, and hopefully that will
make it to air someday. But again, different crews have
been brought in in the development process of that one,
and now I have the pleasure of being on for
all mankind. On the side, I'm working on a future

(53:26):
right now early days. We'll see if when it makes
it out to the world. And as I always I
also developed parliaments, but again we'll see if when it
makes it into the world. Well, congrats on all of
your success, and we're inspired by the gambles that you've taken,
and good luck with all those projects. All right. Pretty interesting.
She seems to be really curious about this idea of

(53:48):
space exploration. Yeah, you can hear in her voice she's
enthusiastic about this alternative universe. I think a lot of
us who saw the space race early on and the
excitement of that are kind of disappointed and how that
played out that we don't have more energy and more
investment and more research into space technology. So it's fun
to imagine that universe where the politics sort of forced

(54:09):
it to happen, sort of made the country continue to
invest in this way, and what was possible. You know,
in that alternative universe, they're already on the surface of
the Mars in the nineties. You just spoiled the show, Daniel.
You weren't gonna get that, just did. I mean, they
are chempting at least to land on Mars in the nineties.
But maybe I wonder if the problem is that a

(54:30):
lot of people think, like, hey, space expression sounds great,
but I don't want to do it. That's certainly my scenario.
But I don't think we're lacking for astronauts. There's a
lot of people on that list who want to go
out into space. I think the bigger challenges people were
wondering about what our priorities should be. Should we spend
money on space or should we try to solve problems
down here on Earth? And one way to think about
it is whether or not it really is a choice

(54:52):
between those two things, whether or not it's possible to
do both, right, Like, maybe you can cure cancer and
just watch space exploration on TV on a show leg
for All Mine, or maybe you can cure cancer in space.
Right there you go, that's what I'm talking about. Maybe
we should host a podcast in space. Well, technically we
are in space, Daniel. I don't know if you've heard,

(55:13):
but the Earth is in space, so then I've gone
to space already. You're saying we're all aliens. Yeah, well no,
he's still on Earth, but so you're not an alien.
But yeah, technically all humankind are astronauts. Were all curling
through the galaxy and through the Cosmos and this little
spaceship called I'm so proud of our bravery as we

(55:34):
sit on our couches. Yeah, I'm not sure. It took
a lot of bravery just to get out of the
womb and walk around and look for snacks. Voluntary or not,
we are astronauts. All right. We'll check out the show
for All Mankind lay now streaming on Apple TV. Three
seasons are out and they're working on season four. All right,
check it out and dream of going to space or

(55:55):
dream of other people going to space, whichever is easier.
Thanks for joining us, you next time, Thanks for listening,
and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is
a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from

(56:15):
my Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H