February 27, 2020 • 42 mins
The Spitzer Space Telescope is retiring. What have we learned from it?
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey, or hey, do you have a lot of brothers
and sisters? I do? Yeah, I have a brother and
two sisters. But wait, did you mean like brothers and
sisters or like physics brothers and sisters? You know, because Daniel,
I think you're my physics bro. Do you have other
physics brothers and sisters? I should I'll have to ask
my physics father. I'm not that I know, but you
(00:29):
never know. Well, do all your siblings sort of get
equal amounts of attention from your parents? I think my
parents tried to do their best. Yeah, but I think,
you know, sometimes some kids get more of their energy.
Maybe I know, right. I mean, I'm a middle child,
and so nothing that I achieved in life could ever
outshine what my older brother has done. Oh really, not
(00:51):
even a science podcast, not even a pH d in physics. Man,
(01:12):
Hi am moream my cartoonists and the creator of PhD comics. Hi.
I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, but I'm still struggling
to impress my parents. Welcome to our podcast. Daniel and
Jorge talk about their family issues in the universe production
of I Heart Radio, in which we talked about all
the amazing and crazy things going on out there in
(01:32):
the universe and also inside your family. So while we
project our family struggles onto the largest canvas in the universe,
we hope that maybe that helps you understanding that the
universe is a personal place. Yeah, it's here just for
you and just for being well, we don't know. It's
also maybe the playground of lots of alien creatures. It's
a big place. We can share it. That's right. There's
(01:53):
plenty of room for siblings squabbles here and on other planets.
And on our podcast, we try to talk about all
the amazing things out there in the universe, the things
that are crazy, the things that are wonderful, the things
that we've seen, and the things that are as yet unseen. Yeah,
and sometimes we like to talk about not just what
we see in the universe, but how we see the universe.
And we like to talk about the famous experiments that
(02:16):
everyone is talking about in the news and in the media,
but also sometimes the lesser known experiments that are also
just as interesting and just as much reveal amazing secrets
about the universe. That's right. On this podcast, we are
enacting scientific social justice. We are shining a spotlight on
those who deserve a little bit more attention and haven't
(02:37):
gotten as much love from the public. So, so who
is the older responsible sibling in physics and who's the
attention getting youngest brother. That's right, Well, you know, it
depends on the field. If you're talking about particle accelerators,
you know, then certain gobbles up all of the credit
and all of the attention, and nobody even knows that
there are other particle accelerators out there in the world.
(02:59):
There are you see there you go. You didn't even know.
But they're out there every day smashing particles together, trying
to reveal the secrets of the universe, despite the fact
that they don't get a lot of public acclaim man,
and s tough. It's pretty the shadow of an older brother.
It's pretty tough to be a particle accelerator. Yeah, so
to be on the podcast, we'll be talking about one
(03:19):
such science project that doesn't get as much attention as
some of his um siblings I guess or yeah siblings,
and but which nonetheless has discovered a lot of amazing
things about the cosmos. That's right, and recently retired. Just
last week it ended it's almost two decades tour of
space and taught us so much about the universe that
(03:41):
we thought it deserved a little send off. Man, just
as it was getting in the spotlight with this podcast,
it's going to retire. That's how you know you've made it,
right when we cover you, Boom, You're a big deal.
So this should be more like a lifetime achievement award
at the Oscars or like the Oscars or something, rather
than a nomination for best Science emparament. That's right, we're
(04:02):
handing out Daniel and Jorge um Medals of Freedom over here. Yeah.
Well hopefully it's uh last time a chief and not
an in memorium. Well, you know, we're not bringing back
to Earth. Is just going to sort of drift out
there in the coldest space frame. But maybe this podcast
will serve as its scientific epitaph. There you go, So
(04:23):
to be on the podcast, we'll be talking about the
Spitzer space telescope. What did it find, where is it now,
how does it work? What did it teach us about
the universe? Yeah, I think this is awesome. Which totally
dig into this and I was really excited about it.
And I also got a request from a listener to
(04:46):
talk about this. Here's a message I got from Jane
in Abu Dhabi. Hi, Daniel, Ri, Jane here in Abu Dhabi.
Could you devote some time to the legacy of the
Spitzer satellite telescope please? The first one up there it
was infrared. Oh nice. It sounds like Jane was a
little bit concerned about the Spitzer. It's like you guys
totally snubbed it and culture snubbing in so somebody should
(05:09):
talk about it. Or do you think maybe Jane works
for the Space Spitzer. Oh yeah, maybe she's on the
Spitzer pr team, right, and this is just part of
their plan. I have a hard time pronouncing it. It's space.
It's like Spitzer space telescope. It's a bit if you
try to say it three times on the road, be hard. Yeah. Well,
you know, the Spitzer space telescope was not named by nassas,
actually named um from the public contest. Yeah, the public,
(05:36):
that's from the public. I know. You'd expect these days
that when you ask the public to name a space
telescope they would call it like telescope telescope face right, yeah,
like that like that other famous public naming What was
it face really? Yeah? Yeah, the boat, right, yeah, but
fortunately what happened. Do you think they was before the internet? Probably, yeah,
(05:58):
this was pre internet, so they probably feel out all
the ridiculous suggestions and they decided to name it after
Lyman Spitzer. He's a guy who wrote papers in the
nineteen forties about this whole idea of like launching telescopes
into space, which you know, in the nineteen forties was
a bit of a crazy idea. Spitzer came up with
the idea of let's put a telescope in space. Yeah,
(06:19):
he was a big proponent of this. He thought it'd
be awesome, and he's right, because there are a lot
of things that we can't see from the Earth surface
because light has to go through the atmosphere, especially in
for a red light, which is very difficult for it
to make it all the way through the atmosphere. And
so some things you see more clearly from space, and
some things you just can't see at all unless you're
in space. And we've made so many amazing discoveries from
(06:41):
our sort of set of space telescopes. It's really been
a wonderful program, right, And so the Spitzer Space Telescope
is apparently sort of like the hard working sibling that
nobody has ever heard of and is about to retire. Yeah,
well I was curious. You know, everybody's heard of the
Hubble space telescope. That's like, you know, the Kobe Bryant
of these telescopes or whatever. Everybody's heard of of Hubble,
(07:03):
but you know, has anybody heard of this other one?
And so I walked around campus the UC Irvine, and
I asked folks if they'd heard of it, if they
knew anything it had discovered, They even knew it was
a thing. So does of you listening think about it
for a second before you listen to these answers. If
someone asked you if you knew what the Spitzer space
telescope was, what would you say? Here's what people had
to say. No, unless that's the one coming out, No,
(07:28):
that's the James Web. No, I haven't, No, I have no,
I haven't. Actually no, I have heard of the Spitzer.
Yeah what does it do? Looks at stuff in space? Well?
I know, all right, I have not answering in some bells,
but I'm not sure. Um uh, Spitzer. I don't know
(07:48):
space telescopes. There's a lot of them. Yeah, yeah, it didn't.
It doesn't seem like a lot of people know about
it or knew about it. No, I could have said
the you know who Goula Bogota space telescope, and people
would have reacted in the same way. You know, I
should have had a control people would have reacted much
more positively. Maybe you're like, I can't say Spitzer Space Telescope. Actually,
(08:08):
maybe I should have a control experiment, because if I
had said who could have booge to space telescope? Somebody
might have said, oh, yeah, I've definitely heard of that one,
and then we could make fun of it in front
of a live studio audience. Yeah. Well, you know, that
actually reminds me of something I do want to go traveling,
which is, before I ask somebody for directions, I asked
them a control question. Wait, you always do that for real? Yeah,
(08:28):
Like if I'm when I'm in Istanbul and I'm about
to get on a boat and I asked somebody like, hey,
does this boat go to somebody there somewhere? I find
that people just always say yes. If they don't quite
understand or they don't know, they just sort of say yes,
and then you end up getting on a boat to
some crazy place. So first I asked him control question,
which is a nonsense question. You say, like, hey, does
this boat go to Antarctica? And if they say yes,
(08:49):
then you don't ask them anymore questions. I feel like
there's a great story here, Dannie, where that's how you
ended up in insta bull. Do this boat go to
Long Island? Yes? And then I see you know you're
inscible and that's how you learned to be to have
a control voice. Istanbul is a beautiful town, and everybody
(09:10):
there is wonderful and friendly, and I think they just
sort of want to say yes as a question because
they're in a positive atity. I see, they're beautiful and friendly.
You just don't trust of at all. Well, it seems
like not a lot of people had heard of the
Spitzer space Telescope. I though some people thought maybe it's
coming out soon, and some people, uh sort of rank
(09:30):
some bells inside of their head. They're like, space telescope.
It looks at stuff in space, right, yeah, And you
know there are a few space telescopes out there, and
there is one that's coming out we hope in one
that's the James Webb Space Telescope, And it's also an
infrared telescope to see really far into the early history
of the universe. So that's some understandable confusion because Spitzer
(09:52):
is an infrared space telescope that's being retired and sort
of replaced by the much bigger, more powerful James Web
So it's sort of like an grade well, you know,
to be honest, I didn't know there were so many
space telescopes. I mean, I heard it the Hubble and
you know, the Chandra X ray and maybe a couple
of others, but it seems like there's a whole bunch
of them out there floating in space. There are a
(10:13):
lot of space telescopes out there. There's sort of a few,
a handful that they call the Great observatories. They's sort
of like the flagship class, the most expensive, most impressive ones,
and they span sort of the electromagnetic spectrum because remember
that when we look out into the universe, we can
see it in lots of different kinds of light, not
just in the visible light that your eye can see,
(10:34):
but the universe shines and lots of different kinds of light. Together,
they sort of cover the whole spectrum. Oh, I see,
And so Spitzer is one of them. One of the
ones that covers a part of the of the of
the visual spectrum. Yeah, you have Spitzer that does infrared light,
and that's the light that sort of wiggles the least
often as the longest wavelength and um then you have Hubble,
(10:57):
which does the sort of visible light that your eye can.
And then you have Chondra which does X rays which
have shorter wavelength or higher energy. And then at the
very top you have Compton, which does you know, gamma rays.
We also have the Fermi space telescope, but that's not
one of the great observatories. But together these are like
four different kinds of eyes on the sky. Awesome. So
(11:18):
there there are literally um scientific papers out there that
are straight out of Compton, Like did they did they
put that in the title in the acknowledgements? That would
be pretty cool if they. If nobody has written a
paper with data from Compton using that title, I don't
even know what's wrong with those people you have would
use it, you know why not? So's okay. So Spitzer
(11:41):
is um part of this family of space telescopes, and
it's the one that was tasked with looking at light
from the infrared because there's a lot of stuff that
happens there. Yeah, the infrared is super interesting because the
oldest light in the universe, coming from the furthest distance,
is the most shifted. Remember that stuff that's really far
(12:02):
away is moving away from us most quickly, and that
shifts the wavelength. It stretches the wavelengths to longer, which
makes the light redder. So if you want to see
stuff that's really old, that's really the very early parts
of the universe, then it's not visible the hubble. It's
not visible to the naked eye. You have to look
in the infrared. Now is it that you just get
(12:23):
older light or do you get different kinds of phenomenon
you know what I mean? Like, is it just the
same thing you would look at the hubble, but you know,
further out, or do you actually get to see things
that you you just you just can in other wavelengths. Yeah. Both.
You get to see stuff which if it was close by,
you could see in the visible spectrum, but now it's
been shifted all the way down to the infrared. Plus,
(12:46):
stuff that's nearby glows differently in the infrared than it
does in the visible light spectrum, so you're different definitely
getting like a different picture of the universe. For example,
stuff that doesn't glow in the visible spectrum, you know,
like a brown dwarfs and exto planets and all sorts
of stuff that doesn't shine brightly in the visible light
because it doesn't have its own fusion. That stuff you
(13:06):
can see in the infrared cool. So the spinster is
up there right now. It's looking at things in the infrared.
And it's been going on since when since like almost
twenty years ago, right, Yeah, it was launching two thousand three,
and it's one of these amazing NASA missions where they
expected to go like two or three years, and then
it goes on like forever, you know, like that rover
that's still driving around on Mars, Yeah, beating that little
(13:29):
energized for drum. I imagine that rover is like, you know,
in its end days, it's gonna be like pulling itself
along by its one robotic arm, you know, sort of
dragging itself across the surface. I just see this evidence
that physicists don't trust anyone, even engineers. I just think
it's the awesomeness of engineers, you know, they have built
it like La Drouble redundancy into that stuff, because imagine
(13:51):
you build this thing, you send it either out into
space where it can never be touched again, or onto
another planet where you can never repair it. So right,
you're hands off as soon as this thing goes, and
if you made a mistake then you can't go in
there with a screw driver and fix it. Yeah, engineers
are awesome, and I'm sure they're also a surprises everyone
else when it actually being as an engineer, Well, this
(14:14):
is definitely a successful project because it was supposed to
last two and a half years, but it lasts seventeen years.
So I went up in two thousand three and they
just turned it off last week. Oh, just turned it
off last week. Yeah, January was the last day they
ran it. So it could have kept going or they
just like, okay, we got enough, let's turn it off.
It could have kept going. But you know, these things
(14:35):
cost money to run, and you've got to have people
communicating with it. You've got to maintain it. It's not free.
I mean it's up there, um. But also it's getting
harder and harder to use because these space telescopes they're
not like Hubble where they can go in orbit around
the Earth. They've got to be further away from the
Earth because they gotta stay super cold to see the
infrared light. Everything around you glows in the infrared um,
(14:58):
even stuff that seems pretty cold. So they cool this
thing down to like five kelvin because otherwise it's like
shining infrared at itself. And number one, it ran out
of the coolant, so like in two thousand nine it
warmed up, so it's not quite as powerful as it
used to be. Also, they keep it away from the Earth.
It's like orbiting the Sun, not the Earth, so so
(15:19):
it's not it's not an orbit around the Earth. No,
it's orbiting the Sun. It's sort of like part of
the way around the Sun, trailing the Earth. But it's
falling behind. It's getting further and further away, which makes
it harder and harder to talk to it, and so
eventually it's just going to be impossible to communicate with
And so they sort of one of these like, you know,
have we gotten enough science out of it? The sort
(15:39):
of you know, science per dollar that we're getting is dropping.
Plus the big new shiny James Web Space Telescope is
supposed to go up pretty soon, so they figured it
was sort of time to time to end its run. Yeah,
that's pretty much what I expect to happen to me
when I grow old, you know. Replace Yeah, less cool,
hard of hearing, and run out of money. It's probably
(16:02):
it's my expected future here. But all right, so, um,
so it's been going around the Sun and it's been
looking at things, and so let's get let's get into
all the amazing and cool things that it's discovered, even
as an ignored sibling of other space telescopes. But first,
let's take a quick break. All right, Daniel say Spitzer
(16:33):
space telescopes three times in a really fast Spitzer space
I can't do it. Is that a new standard for
scientific names of stuff? Yeah? I just call it the Bob.
But so it's been out there for seventeen years, fourteen
years more than it was expected to be running, and
(16:53):
so I imagine it must have seen a lot of
a lot of amazing things in its day. Yeah. Every
time we turn on a new telescope, we learned something
crazy about the universe. We see things we didn't expect,
We discover things we couldn't have anticipated. It's really a
game of exploration, you know, this is not precision measuring
something we already knew and mostly had figured out. We're
(17:14):
just nailing down the details. This is sailing into an
ocean for the very first time. This is looking at
something brand new. These are moments of exploration. Yeah, they
didn't know what it was going to see before they
launched it. As you said, hey, let's put up a
pair of infrared goggles out in space. Yeah, it's sharper
and larger infrared goggles than we've ever seen before. And
(17:35):
these are early moments of the universe we're looking at.
You know, we're looking at formation of the first stars,
the formation of the first galaxies. We're looking at planets
around other stars. And so Spitzer was the biggest, baddest
infrared space telescope, and so it was the one giving
us these amazing insights into the formation of the universe.
And something interesting you were telling me earlier was that
(17:57):
it was originally planned to be kind of like a
shuttle base a telescope, right, Like it was supposed to
be have like a constant maintenance. Yeah, back in the day,
and the space Telescope project goes back a long way
in history. Um, people were expecting that the shuttle. The
Space Shuttle would not be like we launched it a
few times a year, like it ended up, but like
(18:17):
they launched one, you know, weekly. The Space Shuttle was
supposed to be like a shuttle, supposed to like go
up every week and stay up there for thirty days.
So originally they're like, well, why have this thing out
there far in space. Just put it on the shuttle,
send it up for thirty days, take some data, bring
it back upgraded, work on it, send it back up.
Because if the shuttle is going up and down all
the time, it's no big deal. I was curious what
(18:39):
sort of people in astronomy, because I'm a particle physicist,
I'm not in this field. Those curious what people in
astronomy thought about this telescope, Like did they think it
was an exciting piece of technology, did they think it
had delivered scientifically or did they think it was sort
of you know, a miss So I went down and
talked to Virginia Tremble. She's a famous professor of astronomy. Um,
(19:00):
she's wonderful. She's a sort of a grand old lady
of astronomy. You know, she was an astronomer when being
a woman in astronomy was very very rare, which made
it very very difficult. So she's got some amazing stories.
And so you asked her what we learned from this
Spitzer space telescope. Yeah. I asked her whether she thought
Spitzer had done important science. And here's what she had
to say. What's important about the Spitzer Space else scope.
(19:22):
What should people know about what it's accomplished. Well, it's
done an enormous amount of astronomy that couldn't have been
done otherwise because infrared doesn't get to Earth very well,
and there's the atmosphere and all your stuff at room
temperature drowned you with infrared noise. And there it is
in space, well away from the Earth, which of course
is the problem because it's it's getting further and further
(19:42):
from Earth and you can't chase it all the way
around the other side of the Sun. But it's been
enormously important and star formation and distant galaxies and lots
of other good things. All right, cool, awesome. It's great
to hear from scientists who worked on this, who worked
on the data from Spitzer. Yeah, and there are a
lot of them. Spitzer has been a fat story for
scientific results. I looked it up and there are something
(20:02):
like eight thousand, six hundred scientific papers produced with data
from Spitzer. Yeah, and probably a lot of pH dcs
is you know, probably, Um, there's a whole sort of
generation of physicists who cut their teeth with the data
from the telescope. Yeah, there are. And anytime you have
a device which sort of exists for that long and
provides that much data and as you say, creates news scientists,
(20:26):
then you get a generation of people who sort of
feel connected to it, you know. And so I think
that this is sort of a moment for those people.
This is like their baby is you know, I don't know,
growing up and moving out or passing on or retiring
or something, moving on the next phase of his life.
It's the end of an era for those people. And
so that's a little bit sad. Yeah, well, let's let's
(20:47):
get into the meat of this, Daniel then, um, and
let's talk about it the the actual amazing science. It's
a discovered and so um Virginia talked about star formation
and distant galaxies and really old things. So maybe step
us through what do we learn from the Spitzer Space Telescope. Yeah, well,
I thought it'd be fun to sort of start close
to home because Spitter told us things even about our
(21:09):
own Solar system. Like they pointed Spitzer at Saturn and
they discovered a whole new ring. What yeah, that you
couldn't see before or what you can Nobody had seen
it before because it was dim, right, it doesn't glow
very much in the sun, and Spitzer as good at
seeing stuff that's sort of cold and dark because it
glows only in the infrared. And so it found this
(21:31):
whole new, huge ring of Saturn. So it sort of changes,
like our view of one of the most dramatic planets
in the Solar System. A little extra blink there for yeah.
And something I thought was super interesting was they did
this amazing experiment called deep impact where they sent up
something the movie not the movie with Morgan Freeman. Not
(21:53):
a movie, this is real life. Um. I don't know
if they named this project after the movie or the
movie after the project, but they it sort of sounds
like a science fiction movie because what they did is
they sent them something up to smash into a comet.
What oh, that's right, I've heard of this. Like they
you actually like shoot a missile at and see what happens. Yeah,
(22:14):
it wasn't the missle. It was more like a cube
of metal about the size of a washing machine. But
you know, people are wondering, like, what's inside a comet?
Is it just a big snowball? Is that mostly rock? Right?
Does each one have like an actually an alien ship inside?
Nobody knew for a while, And so they smashed into one,
and Spitzer was the best thing to sort of look
at what came out, because again, this stuff doesn't glow
(22:35):
in the visible light. It's cold. It's cold, yeah, and
so it's best seen in the infrared. And uh so
we've got the best image is sort of the composition
of the dust from this comet and really told us
a lot about what's inside commets. And turns out they
aren't a little alien ships at least not the ones
we looked at. There mostly good thing because we smashed
(22:55):
washing machine and at it. They would be really angry
we did. It would be you know, provocation, maybe an
alien that's how you say hello, Like, hey, here's a
big cube of metal at really high speed. They're flattered.
They're like, oh, thank you, here are the secrets of
the universe. We won't eat you today. You never know, right,
it's always a gamble when you're talking to the aliens.
(23:16):
But can we learned that this thing is you know,
mostly mostly ice, and that's fascinating. Yeah, that's fascinating. And
so Spitzer got those pictures. It was the photographer of
a record for that. Yeah, and it also tell us
a lot about sort of near Earth asteroids. Like again,
you want to see a rock that's coming towards the Earth,
you don't want to necessarily have to wait for it
(23:37):
to shine a reflected light from the sun at you.
You can look at some of this stuff from Spitzer
and see it glowing. Oh if it if it's yeah,
because anything with a temperature glows in the infrared, right,
so you don't Yeah, you could see it in the dark. Literally,
you would see like a little point in the dark moving.
Everything has a temperature, right, Everything that's not absolute zero
gives off some radiation. It's called black body radiation. And
(24:01):
the colder it is, the longer the wavelength there, and
so more things can be seen in the infrared. So
you're right, you have these cold rocks, some of them
that you know might smash into Earth. The best way
to see them is to see them through spitser. We
saw asteroids that we had didn't know her there before
also yep, and we were better able to sort of
measure their size, like to see how big is this thing?
And you know, is it really coming in our direction
(24:22):
or not? And so that's pretty important. That could have
been a shocking moment where you're looking at into space
and you're like, oh, there's nothing there. I'll just put
on these infrared goggles. You put them on, and there's
a giant asteroid head of Torto and Bruce Willis is
sitting on it and he's nothing with a lassa or something. Okay. Cool.
So we learned a lot about our solar system that
we didn't know. We saw a lot of stuff stuff
(24:42):
we hadn't seen before. So what else? It take us
out even further. So then we pointed it at sort
of other solar systems, and one thing we were really
curious about was like how do solar systems form When
you have this blob of gas and dust and it's
coming together to make the star. Then you have sort
of also a dis stuff around the star that doesn't
get sucked in because it's sort of moving too fast.
(25:04):
And people have around it's in orbit, and people have
had a lot of theories about like how quickly do
planets start to form? Do you first get the sun
and it burns for like a billion years before planets
start to come together? Do planets start to come together
really quickly as soon as this kind of stuff starts
to happen, people just didn't know. And you can see
this stuff happening because you can with Spitzer, because you
(25:27):
can look directly at the non glowing stuff. You can
look at the planetary disc or the sort of proto
disc where the planets come from, and watch it happen
um in other solar systems using Spitzer, oh right, because
I guess uh, if you try to look at it
with visible light, then the Sun would just outshine up
(25:47):
the kind of stuff. Yeah, And what you want to
do is look at the colder stuff and you want
to see like all these things could gathering together. Is
it mostly just rocks for millions of years? Or do
planets start to form at the same time as the sun.
And so that's pretty fascinating to reveal a lot of
clues about how planets get pulled together. And what they
discovered is that planets don't waste any time. As soon
(26:08):
as that star starts to pull together, planets are also forming,
just like a few million years after the star wow,
so that the sun was popping out siblings, davies as
soon as as soon as it could, yeah, or rivals.
You know, as we talked about another podcast, some of
those things might turn into stars themselves, or turn into
(26:30):
sub brown or stars which you could call stars or
planets or whatever, depending on where you fall in that
on that argument. So you can actually take a picture
of this process happening or do you have to kind
of infer it from the light that's coming you know
what I mean? Like you can can you actually see
the stuff sort of coming together and forming planets? Well,
you can look at individual solar systems in just a snapshot,
(26:50):
right because you the time scale these processes is still
millions and millions of years, So you can't watch one
solar system sort of come together, but you can sort
of see a bunch of them and interpolate between them
and say, oh, look, here's one where the stars really
young and you can see the planets to starting to form.
Here's one where the star is a little older and
you can see the planets are formed a little more,
(27:11):
and of course there's a lot of uncertainty and extrapolating
from one to the other. As you look deeper into
the universe, you seeing further back in time, so you
can sort of see a snapshot at any point you'd
like to see. But of course you're right, you can't
trace one Solar system through time. You can just see
it for like, you know, over a fifteen year period.
You can't see it over right, You gotta you gotta
take a survey, and that's how you piece together what happened. Yeah, precisely. Well,
(27:36):
that's pretty cool. It's it's it's like having magic glasses.
You know, it's like you get's invisible, but then you
put them on and you can see stuff that you
can't see before. Yeah, and we can also use it
to see directly those planets, not just in the formation,
but Spitzer was the first one to visually see those exoplanets.
Like you can actually see the little planet orbiting the star. Yeah,
you can see the little planet in the infrared. It
(27:58):
glows on its own in the infrared. So the first
direct light that came to us from another planet outside
our Solar System was seen by Spitzer. And remember that
crazy solar system they found called the Trappist where it
had like seven hot jupiters all really close to the star.
And Spitzer was the one that saw that. So that
was pretty exciting moment. Oh wow, that's oh wow, man,
(28:21):
this I feel like this has been busy. Yeah, it has.
And something that totally blew my mind is that it
can also if the exoplanet is close enough, and they
found one that's that's only sixty five light years away,
it can see the temperature variations across the planet. You
can actually see an image of it. Yeah, it has
an image of the planet. You can see where it's
(28:41):
hotter and where it's colder, and from that they can
measure the speed of the winds on that planet. Like
they're doing studies of like the temperature, like the weather,
weather observations in other planets light years away. Astro meteorology. Yeah,
it's incredible, and people here in my department, for example,
are doing studies like modeling the atmospheres of these planets
(29:04):
trying to understand what's the composition and how fast are
these winds going. It's incredible. So um, some of the
stuff came from Spitzer's especially these images of the of
the temperature of of of the planet and how it
varies across the surface. And also we've seen um like
light from the first stars in the universe, right, like
the the oldest stars are rehdor until this telescope can
(29:26):
see them. Yeah, the oldest stars in the furthest away
that are moving away from us with the highest velocity.
They're too red for hobble to see very well. And
so we've seen light from like the second generation of
stars in the universe with Spitzer, the first generation of
stars people are still looking for. Nobody's actually seen that
light directly, um, but it's probably will be the next
(29:47):
generation of infrared telescopes that James Webb that helps us
able to see Does that mean that we no, but
still um, we're still limited by the observable universe. Right, Yes,
we're still limited by the observable universe. But if there's
there's an old UM star in there within that observable universe,
we'll be able to see it. Yeah, And that sort
(30:07):
of defines the observable universe. You go out sort of
the age of the universe, times of speed of light,
you have to factor out, of course, the expansion of
the universe and stuff. But if you if you remove
that stuff, then photons that are arriving here, that have
been traveling the entire lifetime of the universe, they're giving
us pictures from those first moments. And you can't go
back further in time than like three eight thousand years
(30:30):
after the Big Bang, because that's the first moment the
universe became transparent. But we can see photons from after
that time, and so it's difficult to sort of dig
it out from the background and and find that light
because it's obscured by gas and dust and all sorts
of crazy stuff. But yeah, we can see all the
way back in time, as far back as the just
(30:51):
after the Big Bang. Well, it sounds like Spitzer has
been very busy and it's found a lot of pretty
amazing things. I would would if I was its appearance,
I would be I would be pretty proud of Bitzer,
you know. Yeah, I think Spincer should be totally proud
of itself and that you know, Spitzer's parents, i e.
The general public should be given it more love, you
know what you mean. I have a Spitzer telescope. His
son their daughter running around there. Well, we all own it, right,
(31:14):
it's a public thing. We all paid for it. The
thing costs more than a billion dollars and that money
came from us, and it's do work for us. And
so it's been toiling away and waiting for our love
and our approval for twenty years. And yet it's been
ignored for twenty years. But it happily toiled on anyway. Right,
(31:35):
it didn't throw a tantrum. It didn't you know, threatened
to stop working. That's a model middle child right there.
All right, let's get into what else Spitzer has found,
and maybe at the galactic scale, what what does it
tell us about how the galaxies are formed? But first
let's take another quick break. All right, Spitzer, the Spitzer
(32:06):
Space Telescope has been keep tripping up on that phrase,
has been out there, toiling away looking at amazing things
in the universe. And it's even told us a lot
about how galaxies form. Right, that's right, because we're curious
not just about like how stars were formed, but then
how did they come together to make these galaxies? How
do they sort of pull themselves together and decide to
(32:27):
make a sort of galaxy sized blobs, like why aren't
galaxies ten times bigger than they are or ten times smaller?
Why aren't stars just sort of distributed evenly through the universe.
It's always fascinating when you sort of find a scale
for the universe. You know, we talked it could be different,
It could have been different, Yeah, and what factors contributed
to that or that some random number in the beginning
(32:49):
of the universe, or is it inevitable based on sort
of the balancing of the forces, you know, the distribution
of dark matter. People are really curious about, like, you know,
why does our universe look the way it does? And
could it have look different? I guess. And this idea
of the infrared and looking at older things in the
universe is kind of like extending your vision in time.
You know, by looking at things that are older, you
(33:11):
can sort of get a sense a better sense of
how they grew up, how the universe grew up. Yeah,
and that's why we sort of want to look back
at the very beginning, like what happened back then, because
now galaxies are basically formed, and like you know, they
can collide with each other and form you know, bigger galaxies.
But we sort of know the size distribution of galaxies
that are today. But something we're really curious about it
(33:31):
is like did all the galaxies start out really small
and then coalesced together into bigger galaxies or were they
born as enormous massive galaxies and then like broke up
or you know what happened? And Spitzer is the one
that can tell us. Yeah, it's like, why don't they
just collapse into a black hole or maybe they will
or who knows right? Or why don't they just float
(33:51):
away or stay as a cloud? Yeah, it's super fascinating
and something we still don't understand very well and something
people are still studying using Spitzer day. It a like
Spencer stopped taking data a week ago, but people are
gonna be using that data to answer questions for a
long time. Oh really, wow, Like my friend and colleague here,
you see Irvine Michael Cooper. He had a really exciting
(34:14):
result just last week. He discovered the most massive galaxy
anybody has ever seen using Spitzer. What what do you
call it? The great galaxy? Know? He called the galaxy
x MM two five nine galaxy my galaxy face, I'll
(34:36):
tell him you said that. But it's an awesome galaxy.
It's made more than three hundred billion sons by the
time the universe was just a billion years old. I mean,
what have you accomplished in that time? I started a
science podcast? I mean, what else? Surely that's equivalent. So
it's one of the biggest and the oldest. Maybe, Yeah,
it's pretty old. Yeah, it's super old and super big,
(34:59):
which is really fascinating. And then after a little while
it's sort of stopped making stars and we don't know why,
and so it's really fascinating. We're just like really in
the beginning days of understanding how galaxies came together, what
that means, why galaxies are the size, the shape they are,
the distribution. Um, it's really at the very beginning of
that whole field. Well and so them. So there's a
(35:20):
whole sort of a trove of data that this telescope
collected then that maybe scientists will keep digging into for
years to come. Yeah, exactly. You know, James Webb will
turn on in one and will very quickly begin collecting
data that's more powerful and more interesting. But it can't
look everywhere all at once, and so the spits of
data will be very useful for a long time in
(35:41):
the world of particle physics. We have this exciting new accelerator,
but we still go back to data from the other
accelerators sometimes because you can answer a question that this
one can't. Yeah, I guess my question is, you know,
it did so much amazing work and it's still works, right,
why not? Why not just keep it going? Well, it
costs fourteen million dollars a year to keep operating, So
(36:02):
if you really up, you should do a kick Starter.
Let me yeah, let me call elon miles Hold on
one second. I guess that's just too fun. The people
who run it and the equipment needed to communicate with it. Yeah,
precisely because we're not sending stuff out there anymore. It's
not like we're sending fuel and energy or you know,
(36:24):
new liquid helium up there anymore. Um, it's a hundred
and fifty eight million miles away, and so it's very
difficult to talk to a hundred and fifty eight million
miles away. Wow. Yeah, that's a that's a long repair call. Yeah,
nobody's going out there to fix it or to get
it get music. Can you bring it closer? Cann't you
(36:44):
like you know, tweak its it comes closer, fix it
and then put it back out there, you know, and
we have very limited control over this thing. And you know,
the engineer has been amazing. Since it's ran out of
it's cool, and in two thousand nine, they've been doing
all sorts of tricks to try to keep it cool,
you know, pointing its sun shield of the sun and
angling it this way so we can communicate with its
Still they're doing everything they can. They've really squeezed everything
(37:05):
they can out of this thing, and they could keep
operating it. But you know, we got the James Webb coming,
and some people were arguing that we should keep it going,
you know, people who grow to like it and and
cut their teeth on it, and people who are frankly
a little skeptical that James Webb is going to launch,
because you know, until that thing actually goes up there
and starts working, you don't really know. It's may not work.
This is blow up in orbit or launch or something. Yeah,
(37:29):
or it could just not work. It's big and complicated
and really hard projects. So this is sort of like
selling your old used car before you buy your new one.
Then you're yeah, there's no uber to to or listen
to there's no uth in between there, and it's kind
of a big gap. You know, James Webb won't launch
(37:49):
until next year, and so it's a leap of faith
that James Webb launch that will work, that'll be able
to do the kind of science that Spitzer has been
a wonderful workhorse of. I also ask Virginia why she
thought Spitzer was sort of like the not as well
known cousin to Hubble, like why I didn't get you
actually asked her that, yeah did, and that isn't a
sensitive question. Well, saying, hey, Daniel, what is your brother
(38:13):
always get more credit and more love from your parents?
You know, he's better looking and smarter, So what can
I say? It's not It's not a mystery though. And
here's what Virginia had to say. An HS puts out
very pretty pictures. It's harder to make very pretty pictures
in the infra red, so she's pretty straight up. Hubble
(38:33):
makes prettier pictures, right, And so that's really what it's
all about, is about competing with your parents for who's
better looking. Oh man, but what do you mean that
they're not as pretty? Because you know, is it just
that they're all the pictures from Spitzer are are red
or it just doesn't capture a lot of this this
crazy amazing formations of gas and dust that Hubble us. Yeah,
(38:54):
I think it's just nicer to look at the universe invisible,
like all the pictures that they take in Spitzer. Of
course the color shift that we can see them, we
can analyze them, but you know there and you can
add color to them, you can say you can like
map those wavelengths to other things. But I think there
just isn't as much sort of rich visuals. And you know,
(39:15):
Hubble is beautiful, it's bigger, it costs seven billion dollars more. Um,
it does take beautiful pictures, right, everybody loves the Hubble pictures.
So did you detect any kind of sentinus in her
voice when she talked about the retiring Spitzer, Um, I
think a little bit. I think she was worried that
maybe James Webb could still implode, uh you know, not physically,
but like as a project, you know, it could just
(39:37):
still not happen. And you know, there's always this legacy
in science there are projects where people sort of tried
to make it too big and it didn't quite work.
Out like the super Conducting super Collider you know, uh,
sort of flew too close to the sky and never
actually happened, and so people wondering like, it's James Webb
just big enough to be awesome and actually go up
(39:57):
and work, or is it too big, too complex, hated
and it's not actually gonna happen flying too close to
the sun. Yeah. Well, I think this is all just
a big lesson. I think in um, how you name things, Daniel,
don't leave it up to the public. They picked Pitzer.
I mean I think really, hobles more popular because it
has to catch your name. You say hobble three times fast,
(40:18):
so hobble blah ho hooole right, and it sounds fun,
it's even fun to say it. But Spitzer Space telescope
three times that's a that's a harder sell. Wow, all
those Spitzer lovers out there, you know you're offending them, man, Sorry,
uh no, Well, thank you to the Spitzer Telescope. We
bid you farewell. Thank you for all the amazing signs
(40:40):
you've you've given us in this view into the universe
that we couldn't get before. And thank you to all
the scientists who helped develop it, to the engineers who
made it work, to the crew at NASA who kept
that thing running, and to all the scientists who are
still analyzing that data and giving us incredible insights into
the early universe and our own solar system. Right because,
(41:02):
as Jupiter would say, if you like it, find a
ring on it. I got nothing on that, man. That
Let's wrap it. That wraps it up right there, all right. Well,
thank you folks for listening in. We hope you enjoyed
that this little trip down into the family of space telescopes.
(41:24):
Thanks for joining us. See you next time. Before you
still have a question after listening to all these explanations,
please drop us the line. We'd love to hear from you.
You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at
Daniel and Jorge that's one word, or email us at
(41:46):
Feedback at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening,
and remember that Daniel and Jorge explained. The Universe is
a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from
my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H m
(42:12):
hm
Hey, or hey, do you have a lot of brothers
and sisters? I do? Yeah, I have a brother and
two sisters. But wait, did you mean like brothers and
sisters or like physics brothers and sisters? You know, because Daniel,
I think you're my physics bro. Do you have other
physics brothers and sisters? I should I'll have to ask
my physics father. I'm not that I know, but you
(00:29):
never know. Well, do all your siblings sort of get
equal amounts of attention from your parents? I think my
parents tried to do their best. Yeah, but I think,
you know, sometimes some kids get more of their energy.
Maybe I know, right. I mean, I'm a middle child,
and so nothing that I achieved in life could ever
outshine what my older brother has done. Oh really, not
(00:51):
even a science podcast, not even a pH d in physics. Man,
(01:12):
Hi am moream my cartoonists and the creator of PhD comics. Hi.
I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, but I'm still struggling
to impress my parents. Welcome to our podcast. Daniel and
Jorge talk about their family issues in the universe production
of I Heart Radio, in which we talked about all
the amazing and crazy things going on out there in
(01:32):
the universe and also inside your family. So while we
project our family struggles onto the largest canvas in the universe,
we hope that maybe that helps you understanding that the
universe is a personal place. Yeah, it's here just for
you and just for being well, we don't know. It's
also maybe the playground of lots of alien creatures. It's
a big place. We can share it. That's right. There's
(01:53):
plenty of room for siblings squabbles here and on other planets.
And on our podcast, we try to talk about all
the amazing things out there in the universe, the things
that are crazy, the things that are wonderful, the things
that we've seen, and the things that are as yet unseen. Yeah,
and sometimes we like to talk about not just what
we see in the universe, but how we see the universe.
And we like to talk about the famous experiments that
(02:16):
everyone is talking about in the news and in the media,
but also sometimes the lesser known experiments that are also
just as interesting and just as much reveal amazing secrets
about the universe. That's right. On this podcast, we are
enacting scientific social justice. We are shining a spotlight on
those who deserve a little bit more attention and haven't
(02:37):
gotten as much love from the public. So, so who
is the older responsible sibling in physics and who's the
attention getting youngest brother. That's right, Well, you know, it
depends on the field. If you're talking about particle accelerators,
you know, then certain gobbles up all of the credit
and all of the attention, and nobody even knows that
there are other particle accelerators out there in the world.
(02:59):
There are you see there you go. You didn't even know.
But they're out there every day smashing particles together, trying
to reveal the secrets of the universe, despite the fact
that they don't get a lot of public acclaim man,
and s tough. It's pretty the shadow of an older brother.
It's pretty tough to be a particle accelerator. Yeah, so
to be on the podcast, we'll be talking about one
(03:19):
such science project that doesn't get as much attention as
some of his um siblings I guess or yeah siblings,
and but which nonetheless has discovered a lot of amazing
things about the cosmos. That's right, and recently retired. Just
last week it ended it's almost two decades tour of
space and taught us so much about the universe that
(03:41):
we thought it deserved a little send off. Man, just
as it was getting in the spotlight with this podcast,
it's going to retire. That's how you know you've made it,
right when we cover you, Boom, You're a big deal.
So this should be more like a lifetime achievement award
at the Oscars or like the Oscars or something, rather
than a nomination for best Science emparament. That's right, we're
(04:02):
handing out Daniel and Jorge um Medals of Freedom over here. Yeah.
Well hopefully it's uh last time a chief and not
an in memorium. Well, you know, we're not bringing back
to Earth. Is just going to sort of drift out
there in the coldest space frame. But maybe this podcast
will serve as its scientific epitaph. There you go, So
(04:23):
to be on the podcast, we'll be talking about the
Spitzer space telescope. What did it find, where is it now,
how does it work? What did it teach us about
the universe? Yeah, I think this is awesome. Which totally
dig into this and I was really excited about it.
And I also got a request from a listener to
(04:46):
talk about this. Here's a message I got from Jane
in Abu Dhabi. Hi, Daniel, Ri, Jane here in Abu Dhabi.
Could you devote some time to the legacy of the
Spitzer satellite telescope please? The first one up there it
was infrared. Oh nice. It sounds like Jane was a
little bit concerned about the Spitzer. It's like you guys
totally snubbed it and culture snubbing in so somebody should
(05:09):
talk about it. Or do you think maybe Jane works
for the Space Spitzer. Oh yeah, maybe she's on the
Spitzer pr team, right, and this is just part of
their plan. I have a hard time pronouncing it. It's space.
It's like Spitzer space telescope. It's a bit if you
try to say it three times on the road, be hard. Yeah. Well,
you know, the Spitzer space telescope was not named by nassas,
actually named um from the public contest. Yeah, the public,
(05:36):
that's from the public. I know. You'd expect these days
that when you ask the public to name a space
telescope they would call it like telescope telescope face right, yeah,
like that like that other famous public naming What was
it face really? Yeah? Yeah, the boat, right, yeah, but
fortunately what happened. Do you think they was before the internet? Probably, yeah,
(05:58):
this was pre internet, so they probably feel out all
the ridiculous suggestions and they decided to name it after
Lyman Spitzer. He's a guy who wrote papers in the
nineteen forties about this whole idea of like launching telescopes
into space, which you know, in the nineteen forties was
a bit of a crazy idea. Spitzer came up with
the idea of let's put a telescope in space. Yeah,
(06:19):
he was a big proponent of this. He thought it'd
be awesome, and he's right, because there are a lot
of things that we can't see from the Earth surface
because light has to go through the atmosphere, especially in
for a red light, which is very difficult for it
to make it all the way through the atmosphere. And
so some things you see more clearly from space, and
some things you just can't see at all unless you're
in space. And we've made so many amazing discoveries from
(06:41):
our sort of set of space telescopes. It's really been
a wonderful program, right, And so the Spitzer Space Telescope
is apparently sort of like the hard working sibling that
nobody has ever heard of and is about to retire. Yeah,
well I was curious. You know, everybody's heard of the
Hubble space telescope. That's like, you know, the Kobe Bryant
of these telescopes or whatever. Everybody's heard of of Hubble,
(07:03):
but you know, has anybody heard of this other one?
And so I walked around campus the UC Irvine, and
I asked folks if they'd heard of it, if they
knew anything it had discovered, They even knew it was
a thing. So does of you listening think about it
for a second before you listen to these answers. If
someone asked you if you knew what the Spitzer space
telescope was, what would you say? Here's what people had
to say. No, unless that's the one coming out, No,
(07:28):
that's the James Web. No, I haven't, No, I have no,
I haven't. Actually no, I have heard of the Spitzer.
Yeah what does it do? Looks at stuff in space? Well?
I know, all right, I have not answering in some bells,
but I'm not sure. Um uh, Spitzer. I don't know
(07:48):
space telescopes. There's a lot of them. Yeah, yeah, it didn't.
It doesn't seem like a lot of people know about
it or knew about it. No, I could have said
the you know who Goula Bogota space telescope, and people
would have reacted in the same way. You know, I
should have had a control people would have reacted much
more positively. Maybe you're like, I can't say Spitzer Space Telescope. Actually,
(08:08):
maybe I should have a control experiment, because if I
had said who could have booge to space telescope? Somebody
might have said, oh, yeah, I've definitely heard of that one,
and then we could make fun of it in front
of a live studio audience. Yeah. Well, you know, that
actually reminds me of something I do want to go traveling,
which is, before I ask somebody for directions, I asked
them a control question. Wait, you always do that for real? Yeah,
(08:28):
Like if I'm when I'm in Istanbul and I'm about
to get on a boat and I asked somebody like, hey,
does this boat go to somebody there somewhere? I find
that people just always say yes. If they don't quite
understand or they don't know, they just sort of say yes,
and then you end up getting on a boat to
some crazy place. So first I asked him control question,
which is a nonsense question. You say, like, hey, does
this boat go to Antarctica? And if they say yes,
(08:49):
then you don't ask them anymore questions. I feel like
there's a great story here, Dannie, where that's how you
ended up in insta bull. Do this boat go to
Long Island? Yes? And then I see you know you're
inscible and that's how you learned to be to have
a control voice. Istanbul is a beautiful town, and everybody
(09:10):
there is wonderful and friendly, and I think they just
sort of want to say yes as a question because
they're in a positive atity. I see, they're beautiful and friendly.
You just don't trust of at all. Well, it seems
like not a lot of people had heard of the
Spitzer space Telescope. I though some people thought maybe it's
coming out soon, and some people, uh sort of rank
(09:30):
some bells inside of their head. They're like, space telescope.
It looks at stuff in space, right, yeah, And you
know there are a few space telescopes out there, and
there is one that's coming out we hope in one
that's the James Webb Space Telescope, And it's also an
infrared telescope to see really far into the early history
of the universe. So that's some understandable confusion because Spitzer
(09:52):
is an infrared space telescope that's being retired and sort
of replaced by the much bigger, more powerful James Web
So it's sort of like an grade well, you know,
to be honest, I didn't know there were so many
space telescopes. I mean, I heard it the Hubble and
you know, the Chandra X ray and maybe a couple
of others, but it seems like there's a whole bunch
of them out there floating in space. There are a
(10:13):
lot of space telescopes out there. There's sort of a few,
a handful that they call the Great observatories. They's sort
of like the flagship class, the most expensive, most impressive ones,
and they span sort of the electromagnetic spectrum because remember
that when we look out into the universe, we can
see it in lots of different kinds of light, not
just in the visible light that your eye can see,
(10:34):
but the universe shines and lots of different kinds of light. Together,
they sort of cover the whole spectrum. Oh, I see,
And so Spitzer is one of them. One of the
ones that covers a part of the of the of
the visual spectrum. Yeah, you have Spitzer that does infrared light,
and that's the light that sort of wiggles the least
often as the longest wavelength and um then you have Hubble,
(10:57):
which does the sort of visible light that your eye can.
And then you have Chondra which does X rays which
have shorter wavelength or higher energy. And then at the
very top you have Compton, which does you know, gamma rays.
We also have the Fermi space telescope, but that's not
one of the great observatories. But together these are like
four different kinds of eyes on the sky. Awesome. So
(11:18):
there there are literally um scientific papers out there that
are straight out of Compton, Like did they did they
put that in the title in the acknowledgements? That would
be pretty cool if they. If nobody has written a
paper with data from Compton using that title, I don't
even know what's wrong with those people you have would
use it, you know why not? So's okay. So Spitzer
(11:41):
is um part of this family of space telescopes, and
it's the one that was tasked with looking at light
from the infrared because there's a lot of stuff that
happens there. Yeah, the infrared is super interesting because the
oldest light in the universe, coming from the furthest distance,
is the most shifted. Remember that stuff that's really far
(12:02):
away is moving away from us most quickly, and that
shifts the wavelength. It stretches the wavelengths to longer, which
makes the light redder. So if you want to see
stuff that's really old, that's really the very early parts
of the universe, then it's not visible the hubble. It's
not visible to the naked eye. You have to look
in the infrared. Now is it that you just get
(12:23):
older light or do you get different kinds of phenomenon
you know what I mean? Like, is it just the
same thing you would look at the hubble, but you know,
further out, or do you actually get to see things
that you you just you just can in other wavelengths. Yeah. Both.
You get to see stuff which if it was close by,
you could see in the visible spectrum, but now it's
been shifted all the way down to the infrared. Plus,
(12:46):
stuff that's nearby glows differently in the infrared than it
does in the visible light spectrum, so you're different definitely
getting like a different picture of the universe. For example,
stuff that doesn't glow in the visible spectrum, you know,
like a brown dwarfs and exto planets and all sorts
of stuff that doesn't shine brightly in the visible light
because it doesn't have its own fusion. That stuff you
(13:06):
can see in the infrared cool. So the spinster is
up there right now. It's looking at things in the infrared.
And it's been going on since when since like almost
twenty years ago, right, Yeah, it was launching two thousand three,
and it's one of these amazing NASA missions where they
expected to go like two or three years, and then
it goes on like forever, you know, like that rover
that's still driving around on Mars, Yeah, beating that little
(13:29):
energized for drum. I imagine that rover is like, you know,
in its end days, it's gonna be like pulling itself
along by its one robotic arm, you know, sort of
dragging itself across the surface. I just see this evidence
that physicists don't trust anyone, even engineers. I just think
it's the awesomeness of engineers, you know, they have built
it like La Drouble redundancy into that stuff, because imagine
(13:51):
you build this thing, you send it either out into
space where it can never be touched again, or onto
another planet where you can never repair it. So right,
you're hands off as soon as this thing goes, and
if you made a mistake then you can't go in
there with a screw driver and fix it. Yeah, engineers
are awesome, and I'm sure they're also a surprises everyone
else when it actually being as an engineer, Well, this
(14:14):
is definitely a successful project because it was supposed to
last two and a half years, but it lasts seventeen years.
So I went up in two thousand three and they
just turned it off last week. Oh, just turned it
off last week. Yeah, January was the last day they
ran it. So it could have kept going or they
just like, okay, we got enough, let's turn it off.
It could have kept going. But you know, these things
(14:35):
cost money to run, and you've got to have people
communicating with it. You've got to maintain it. It's not free.
I mean it's up there, um. But also it's getting
harder and harder to use because these space telescopes they're
not like Hubble where they can go in orbit around
the Earth. They've got to be further away from the
Earth because they gotta stay super cold to see the
infrared light. Everything around you glows in the infrared um,
(14:58):
even stuff that seems pretty cold. So they cool this
thing down to like five kelvin because otherwise it's like
shining infrared at itself. And number one, it ran out
of the coolant, so like in two thousand nine it
warmed up, so it's not quite as powerful as it
used to be. Also, they keep it away from the Earth.
It's like orbiting the Sun, not the Earth, so so
(15:19):
it's not it's not an orbit around the Earth. No,
it's orbiting the Sun. It's sort of like part of
the way around the Sun, trailing the Earth. But it's
falling behind. It's getting further and further away, which makes
it harder and harder to talk to it, and so
eventually it's just going to be impossible to communicate with
And so they sort of one of these like, you know,
have we gotten enough science out of it? The sort
(15:39):
of you know, science per dollar that we're getting is dropping.
Plus the big new shiny James Web Space Telescope is
supposed to go up pretty soon, so they figured it
was sort of time to time to end its run. Yeah,
that's pretty much what I expect to happen to me
when I grow old, you know. Replace Yeah, less cool,
hard of hearing, and run out of money. It's probably
(16:02):
it's my expected future here. But all right, so, um,
so it's been going around the Sun and it's been
looking at things, and so let's get let's get into
all the amazing and cool things that it's discovered, even
as an ignored sibling of other space telescopes. But first,
let's take a quick break. All right, Daniel say Spitzer
(16:33):
space telescopes three times in a really fast Spitzer space
I can't do it. Is that a new standard for
scientific names of stuff? Yeah? I just call it the Bob.
But so it's been out there for seventeen years, fourteen
years more than it was expected to be running, and
(16:53):
so I imagine it must have seen a lot of
a lot of amazing things in its day. Yeah. Every
time we turn on a new telescope, we learned something
crazy about the universe. We see things we didn't expect,
We discover things we couldn't have anticipated. It's really a
game of exploration, you know, this is not precision measuring
something we already knew and mostly had figured out. We're
(17:14):
just nailing down the details. This is sailing into an
ocean for the very first time. This is looking at
something brand new. These are moments of exploration. Yeah, they
didn't know what it was going to see before they
launched it. As you said, hey, let's put up a
pair of infrared goggles out in space. Yeah, it's sharper
and larger infrared goggles than we've ever seen before. And
(17:35):
these are early moments of the universe we're looking at.
You know, we're looking at formation of the first stars,
the formation of the first galaxies. We're looking at planets
around other stars. And so Spitzer was the biggest, baddest
infrared space telescope, and so it was the one giving
us these amazing insights into the formation of the universe.
And something interesting you were telling me earlier was that
(17:57):
it was originally planned to be kind of like a
shuttle base a telescope, right, Like it was supposed to
be have like a constant maintenance. Yeah, back in the day,
and the space Telescope project goes back a long way
in history. Um, people were expecting that the shuttle. The
Space Shuttle would not be like we launched it a
few times a year, like it ended up, but like
(18:17):
they launched one, you know, weekly. The Space Shuttle was
supposed to be like a shuttle, supposed to like go
up every week and stay up there for thirty days.
So originally they're like, well, why have this thing out
there far in space. Just put it on the shuttle,
send it up for thirty days, take some data, bring
it back upgraded, work on it, send it back up.
Because if the shuttle is going up and down all
the time, it's no big deal. I was curious what
(18:39):
sort of people in astronomy, because I'm a particle physicist,
I'm not in this field. Those curious what people in
astronomy thought about this telescope, Like did they think it
was an exciting piece of technology, did they think it
had delivered scientifically or did they think it was sort
of you know, a miss So I went down and
talked to Virginia Tremble. She's a famous professor of astronomy. Um,
(19:00):
she's wonderful. She's a sort of a grand old lady
of astronomy. You know, she was an astronomer when being
a woman in astronomy was very very rare, which made
it very very difficult. So she's got some amazing stories.
And so you asked her what we learned from this
Spitzer space telescope. Yeah. I asked her whether she thought
Spitzer had done important science. And here's what she had
to say. What's important about the Spitzer Space else scope.
(19:22):
What should people know about what it's accomplished. Well, it's
done an enormous amount of astronomy that couldn't have been
done otherwise because infrared doesn't get to Earth very well,
and there's the atmosphere and all your stuff at room
temperature drowned you with infrared noise. And there it is
in space, well away from the Earth, which of course
is the problem because it's it's getting further and further
(19:42):
from Earth and you can't chase it all the way
around the other side of the Sun. But it's been
enormously important and star formation and distant galaxies and lots
of other good things. All right, cool, awesome. It's great
to hear from scientists who worked on this, who worked
on the data from Spitzer. Yeah, and there are a
lot of them. Spitzer has been a fat story for
scientific results. I looked it up and there are something
(20:02):
like eight thousand, six hundred scientific papers produced with data
from Spitzer. Yeah, and probably a lot of pH dcs
is you know, probably, Um, there's a whole sort of
generation of physicists who cut their teeth with the data
from the telescope. Yeah, there are. And anytime you have
a device which sort of exists for that long and
provides that much data and as you say, creates news scientists,
(20:26):
then you get a generation of people who sort of
feel connected to it, you know. And so I think
that this is sort of a moment for those people.
This is like their baby is you know, I don't know,
growing up and moving out or passing on or retiring
or something, moving on the next phase of his life.
It's the end of an era for those people. And
so that's a little bit sad. Yeah, well, let's let's
(20:47):
get into the meat of this, Daniel then, um, and
let's talk about it the the actual amazing science. It's
a discovered and so um Virginia talked about star formation
and distant galaxies and really old things. So maybe step
us through what do we learn from the Spitzer Space Telescope. Yeah, well,
I thought it'd be fun to sort of start close
to home because Spitter told us things even about our
(21:09):
own Solar system. Like they pointed Spitzer at Saturn and
they discovered a whole new ring. What yeah, that you
couldn't see before or what you can Nobody had seen
it before because it was dim, right, it doesn't glow
very much in the sun, and Spitzer as good at
seeing stuff that's sort of cold and dark because it
glows only in the infrared. And so it found this
(21:31):
whole new, huge ring of Saturn. So it sort of changes,
like our view of one of the most dramatic planets
in the Solar System. A little extra blink there for yeah.
And something I thought was super interesting was they did
this amazing experiment called deep impact where they sent up
something the movie not the movie with Morgan Freeman. Not
(21:53):
a movie, this is real life. Um. I don't know
if they named this project after the movie or the
movie after the project, but they it sort of sounds
like a science fiction movie because what they did is
they sent them something up to smash into a comet.
What oh, that's right, I've heard of this. Like they
you actually like shoot a missile at and see what happens. Yeah,
(22:14):
it wasn't the missle. It was more like a cube
of metal about the size of a washing machine. But
you know, people are wondering, like, what's inside a comet?
Is it just a big snowball? Is that mostly rock? Right?
Does each one have like an actually an alien ship inside?
Nobody knew for a while, And so they smashed into one,
and Spitzer was the best thing to sort of look
at what came out, because again, this stuff doesn't glow
(22:35):
in the visible light. It's cold. It's cold, yeah, and
so it's best seen in the infrared. And uh so
we've got the best image is sort of the composition
of the dust from this comet and really told us
a lot about what's inside commets. And turns out they
aren't a little alien ships at least not the ones
we looked at. There mostly good thing because we smashed
(22:55):
washing machine and at it. They would be really angry
we did. It would be you know, provocation, maybe an
alien that's how you say hello, Like, hey, here's a
big cube of metal at really high speed. They're flattered.
They're like, oh, thank you, here are the secrets of
the universe. We won't eat you today. You never know, right,
it's always a gamble when you're talking to the aliens.
(23:16):
But can we learned that this thing is you know,
mostly mostly ice, and that's fascinating. Yeah, that's fascinating. And
so Spitzer got those pictures. It was the photographer of
a record for that. Yeah, and it also tell us
a lot about sort of near Earth asteroids. Like again,
you want to see a rock that's coming towards the Earth,
you don't want to necessarily have to wait for it
(23:37):
to shine a reflected light from the sun at you.
You can look at some of this stuff from Spitzer
and see it glowing. Oh if it if it's yeah,
because anything with a temperature glows in the infrared, right,
so you don't Yeah, you could see it in the dark. Literally,
you would see like a little point in the dark moving.
Everything has a temperature, right, Everything that's not absolute zero
gives off some radiation. It's called black body radiation. And
(24:01):
the colder it is, the longer the wavelength there, and
so more things can be seen in the infrared. So
you're right, you have these cold rocks, some of them
that you know might smash into Earth. The best way
to see them is to see them through spitser. We
saw asteroids that we had didn't know her there before
also yep, and we were better able to sort of
measure their size, like to see how big is this thing?
And you know, is it really coming in our direction
(24:22):
or not? And so that's pretty important. That could have
been a shocking moment where you're looking at into space
and you're like, oh, there's nothing there. I'll just put
on these infrared goggles. You put them on, and there's
a giant asteroid head of Torto and Bruce Willis is
sitting on it and he's nothing with a lassa or something. Okay. Cool.
So we learned a lot about our solar system that
we didn't know. We saw a lot of stuff stuff
(24:42):
we hadn't seen before. So what else? It take us
out even further. So then we pointed it at sort
of other solar systems, and one thing we were really
curious about was like how do solar systems form When
you have this blob of gas and dust and it's
coming together to make the star. Then you have sort
of also a dis stuff around the star that doesn't
get sucked in because it's sort of moving too fast.
(25:04):
And people have around it's in orbit, and people have
had a lot of theories about like how quickly do
planets start to form? Do you first get the sun
and it burns for like a billion years before planets
start to come together? Do planets start to come together
really quickly as soon as this kind of stuff starts
to happen, people just didn't know. And you can see
this stuff happening because you can with Spitzer, because you
(25:27):
can look directly at the non glowing stuff. You can
look at the planetary disc or the sort of proto
disc where the planets come from, and watch it happen
um in other solar systems using Spitzer, oh right, because
I guess uh, if you try to look at it
with visible light, then the Sun would just outshine up
(25:47):
the kind of stuff. Yeah, And what you want to
do is look at the colder stuff and you want
to see like all these things could gathering together. Is
it mostly just rocks for millions of years? Or do
planets start to form at the same time as the sun.
And so that's pretty fascinating to reveal a lot of
clues about how planets get pulled together. And what they
discovered is that planets don't waste any time. As soon
(26:08):
as that star starts to pull together, planets are also forming,
just like a few million years after the star wow,
so that the sun was popping out siblings, davies as
soon as as soon as it could, yeah, or rivals.
You know, as we talked about another podcast, some of
those things might turn into stars themselves, or turn into
(26:30):
sub brown or stars which you could call stars or
planets or whatever, depending on where you fall in that
on that argument. So you can actually take a picture
of this process happening or do you have to kind
of infer it from the light that's coming you know
what I mean? Like you can can you actually see
the stuff sort of coming together and forming planets? Well,
you can look at individual solar systems in just a snapshot,
(26:50):
right because you the time scale these processes is still
millions and millions of years, So you can't watch one
solar system sort of come together, but you can sort
of see a bunch of them and interpolate between them
and say, oh, look, here's one where the stars really
young and you can see the planets to starting to form.
Here's one where the star is a little older and
you can see the planets are formed a little more,
(27:11):
and of course there's a lot of uncertainty and extrapolating
from one to the other. As you look deeper into
the universe, you seeing further back in time, so you
can sort of see a snapshot at any point you'd
like to see. But of course you're right, you can't
trace one Solar system through time. You can just see
it for like, you know, over a fifteen year period.
You can't see it over right, You gotta you gotta
take a survey, and that's how you piece together what happened. Yeah, precisely. Well,
(27:36):
that's pretty cool. It's it's it's like having magic glasses.
You know, it's like you get's invisible, but then you
put them on and you can see stuff that you
can't see before. Yeah, and we can also use it
to see directly those planets, not just in the formation,
but Spitzer was the first one to visually see those exoplanets.
Like you can actually see the little planet orbiting the star. Yeah,
you can see the little planet in the infrared. It
(27:58):
glows on its own in the infrared. So the first
direct light that came to us from another planet outside
our Solar System was seen by Spitzer. And remember that
crazy solar system they found called the Trappist where it
had like seven hot jupiters all really close to the star.
And Spitzer was the one that saw that. So that
was pretty exciting moment. Oh wow, that's oh wow, man,
(28:21):
this I feel like this has been busy. Yeah, it has.
And something that totally blew my mind is that it
can also if the exoplanet is close enough, and they
found one that's that's only sixty five light years away,
it can see the temperature variations across the planet. You
can actually see an image of it. Yeah, it has
an image of the planet. You can see where it's
(28:41):
hotter and where it's colder, and from that they can
measure the speed of the winds on that planet. Like
they're doing studies of like the temperature, like the weather,
weather observations in other planets light years away. Astro meteorology. Yeah,
it's incredible, and people here in my department, for example,
are doing studies like modeling the atmospheres of these planets
(29:04):
trying to understand what's the composition and how fast are
these winds going. It's incredible. So um, some of the
stuff came from Spitzer's especially these images of the of
the temperature of of of the planet and how it
varies across the surface. And also we've seen um like
light from the first stars in the universe, right, like
the the oldest stars are rehdor until this telescope can
(29:26):
see them. Yeah, the oldest stars in the furthest away
that are moving away from us with the highest velocity.
They're too red for hobble to see very well. And
so we've seen light from like the second generation of
stars in the universe with Spitzer, the first generation of
stars people are still looking for. Nobody's actually seen that
light directly, um, but it's probably will be the next
(29:47):
generation of infrared telescopes that James Webb that helps us
able to see Does that mean that we no, but
still um, we're still limited by the observable universe. Right, Yes,
we're still limited by the observable universe. But if there's
there's an old UM star in there within that observable universe,
we'll be able to see it. Yeah, And that sort
(30:07):
of defines the observable universe. You go out sort of
the age of the universe, times of speed of light,
you have to factor out, of course, the expansion of
the universe and stuff. But if you if you remove
that stuff, then photons that are arriving here, that have
been traveling the entire lifetime of the universe, they're giving
us pictures from those first moments. And you can't go
back further in time than like three eight thousand years
(30:30):
after the Big Bang, because that's the first moment the
universe became transparent. But we can see photons from after
that time, and so it's difficult to sort of dig
it out from the background and and find that light
because it's obscured by gas and dust and all sorts
of crazy stuff. But yeah, we can see all the
way back in time, as far back as the just
(30:51):
after the Big Bang. Well, it sounds like Spitzer has
been very busy and it's found a lot of pretty
amazing things. I would would if I was its appearance,
I would be I would be pretty proud of Bitzer,
you know. Yeah, I think Spincer should be totally proud
of itself and that you know, Spitzer's parents, i e.
The general public should be given it more love, you
know what you mean. I have a Spitzer telescope. His
son their daughter running around there. Well, we all own it, right,
(31:14):
it's a public thing. We all paid for it. The
thing costs more than a billion dollars and that money
came from us, and it's do work for us. And
so it's been toiling away and waiting for our love
and our approval for twenty years. And yet it's been
ignored for twenty years. But it happily toiled on anyway. Right,
(31:35):
it didn't throw a tantrum. It didn't you know, threatened
to stop working. That's a model middle child right there.
All right, let's get into what else Spitzer has found,
and maybe at the galactic scale, what what does it
tell us about how the galaxies are formed? But first
let's take another quick break. All right, Spitzer, the Spitzer
(32:06):
Space Telescope has been keep tripping up on that phrase,
has been out there, toiling away looking at amazing things
in the universe. And it's even told us a lot
about how galaxies form. Right, that's right, because we're curious
not just about like how stars were formed, but then
how did they come together to make these galaxies? How
do they sort of pull themselves together and decide to
(32:27):
make a sort of galaxy sized blobs, like why aren't
galaxies ten times bigger than they are or ten times smaller?
Why aren't stars just sort of distributed evenly through the universe.
It's always fascinating when you sort of find a scale
for the universe. You know, we talked it could be different,
It could have been different, Yeah, and what factors contributed
to that or that some random number in the beginning
(32:49):
of the universe, or is it inevitable based on sort
of the balancing of the forces, you know, the distribution
of dark matter. People are really curious about, like, you know,
why does our universe look the way it does? And
could it have look different? I guess. And this idea
of the infrared and looking at older things in the
universe is kind of like extending your vision in time.
You know, by looking at things that are older, you
(33:11):
can sort of get a sense a better sense of
how they grew up, how the universe grew up. Yeah,
and that's why we sort of want to look back
at the very beginning, like what happened back then, because
now galaxies are basically formed, and like you know, they
can collide with each other and form you know, bigger galaxies.
But we sort of know the size distribution of galaxies
that are today. But something we're really curious about it
(33:31):
is like did all the galaxies start out really small
and then coalesced together into bigger galaxies or were they
born as enormous massive galaxies and then like broke up
or you know what happened? And Spitzer is the one
that can tell us. Yeah, it's like, why don't they
just collapse into a black hole or maybe they will
or who knows right? Or why don't they just float
(33:51):
away or stay as a cloud? Yeah, it's super fascinating
and something we still don't understand very well and something
people are still studying using Spitzer day. It a like
Spencer stopped taking data a week ago, but people are
gonna be using that data to answer questions for a
long time. Oh really, wow, Like my friend and colleague here,
you see Irvine Michael Cooper. He had a really exciting
(34:14):
result just last week. He discovered the most massive galaxy
anybody has ever seen using Spitzer. What what do you
call it? The great galaxy? Know? He called the galaxy
x MM two five nine galaxy my galaxy face, I'll
(34:36):
tell him you said that. But it's an awesome galaxy.
It's made more than three hundred billion sons by the
time the universe was just a billion years old. I mean,
what have you accomplished in that time? I started a
science podcast? I mean, what else? Surely that's equivalent. So
it's one of the biggest and the oldest. Maybe, Yeah,
it's pretty old. Yeah, it's super old and super big,
(34:59):
which is really fascinating. And then after a little while
it's sort of stopped making stars and we don't know why,
and so it's really fascinating. We're just like really in
the beginning days of understanding how galaxies came together, what
that means, why galaxies are the size, the shape they are,
the distribution. Um, it's really at the very beginning of
that whole field. Well and so them. So there's a
(35:20):
whole sort of a trove of data that this telescope
collected then that maybe scientists will keep digging into for
years to come. Yeah, exactly. You know, James Webb will
turn on in one and will very quickly begin collecting
data that's more powerful and more interesting. But it can't
look everywhere all at once, and so the spits of
data will be very useful for a long time in
(35:41):
the world of particle physics. We have this exciting new accelerator,
but we still go back to data from the other
accelerators sometimes because you can answer a question that this
one can't. Yeah, I guess my question is, you know,
it did so much amazing work and it's still works, right,
why not? Why not just keep it going? Well, it
costs fourteen million dollars a year to keep operating, So
(36:02):
if you really up, you should do a kick Starter.
Let me yeah, let me call elon miles Hold on
one second. I guess that's just too fun. The people
who run it and the equipment needed to communicate with it. Yeah,
precisely because we're not sending stuff out there anymore. It's
not like we're sending fuel and energy or you know,
(36:24):
new liquid helium up there anymore. Um, it's a hundred
and fifty eight million miles away, and so it's very
difficult to talk to a hundred and fifty eight million
miles away. Wow. Yeah, that's a that's a long repair call. Yeah,
nobody's going out there to fix it or to get
it get music. Can you bring it closer? Cann't you
(36:44):
like you know, tweak its it comes closer, fix it
and then put it back out there, you know, and
we have very limited control over this thing. And you know,
the engineer has been amazing. Since it's ran out of
it's cool, and in two thousand nine, they've been doing
all sorts of tricks to try to keep it cool,
you know, pointing its sun shield of the sun and
angling it this way so we can communicate with its
Still they're doing everything they can. They've really squeezed everything
(37:05):
they can out of this thing, and they could keep
operating it. But you know, we got the James Webb coming,
and some people were arguing that we should keep it going,
you know, people who grow to like it and and
cut their teeth on it, and people who are frankly
a little skeptical that James Webb is going to launch,
because you know, until that thing actually goes up there
and starts working, you don't really know. It's may not work.
This is blow up in orbit or launch or something. Yeah,
(37:29):
or it could just not work. It's big and complicated
and really hard projects. So this is sort of like
selling your old used car before you buy your new one.
Then you're yeah, there's no uber to to or listen
to there's no uth in between there, and it's kind
of a big gap. You know, James Webb won't launch
(37:49):
until next year, and so it's a leap of faith
that James Webb launch that will work, that'll be able
to do the kind of science that Spitzer has been
a wonderful workhorse of. I also ask Virginia why she
thought Spitzer was sort of like the not as well
known cousin to Hubble, like why I didn't get you
actually asked her that, yeah did, and that isn't a
sensitive question. Well, saying, hey, Daniel, what is your brother
(38:13):
always get more credit and more love from your parents?
You know, he's better looking and smarter, So what can
I say? It's not It's not a mystery though. And
here's what Virginia had to say. An HS puts out
very pretty pictures. It's harder to make very pretty pictures
in the infra red, so she's pretty straight up. Hubble
(38:33):
makes prettier pictures, right, And so that's really what it's
all about, is about competing with your parents for who's
better looking. Oh man, but what do you mean that
they're not as pretty? Because you know, is it just
that they're all the pictures from Spitzer are are red
or it just doesn't capture a lot of this this
crazy amazing formations of gas and dust that Hubble us. Yeah,
(38:54):
I think it's just nicer to look at the universe invisible,
like all the pictures that they take in Spitzer. Of
course the color shift that we can see them, we
can analyze them, but you know there and you can
add color to them, you can say you can like
map those wavelengths to other things. But I think there
just isn't as much sort of rich visuals. And you know,
(39:15):
Hubble is beautiful, it's bigger, it costs seven billion dollars more. Um,
it does take beautiful pictures, right, everybody loves the Hubble pictures.
So did you detect any kind of sentinus in her
voice when she talked about the retiring Spitzer, Um, I
think a little bit. I think she was worried that
maybe James Webb could still implode, uh you know, not physically,
but like as a project, you know, it could just
(39:37):
still not happen. And you know, there's always this legacy
in science there are projects where people sort of tried
to make it too big and it didn't quite work.
Out like the super Conducting super Collider you know, uh,
sort of flew too close to the sky and never
actually happened, and so people wondering like, it's James Webb
just big enough to be awesome and actually go up
(39:57):
and work, or is it too big, too complex, hated
and it's not actually gonna happen flying too close to
the sun. Yeah. Well, I think this is all just
a big lesson. I think in um, how you name things, Daniel,
don't leave it up to the public. They picked Pitzer.
I mean I think really, hobles more popular because it
has to catch your name. You say hobble three times fast,
(40:18):
so hobble blah ho hooole right, and it sounds fun,
it's even fun to say it. But Spitzer Space telescope
three times that's a that's a harder sell. Wow, all
those Spitzer lovers out there, you know you're offending them, man, Sorry,
uh no, Well, thank you to the Spitzer Telescope. We
bid you farewell. Thank you for all the amazing signs
(40:40):
you've you've given us in this view into the universe
that we couldn't get before. And thank you to all
the scientists who helped develop it, to the engineers who
made it work, to the crew at NASA who kept
that thing running, and to all the scientists who are
still analyzing that data and giving us incredible insights into
the early universe and our own solar system. Right because,
(41:02):
as Jupiter would say, if you like it, find a
ring on it. I got nothing on that, man. That
Let's wrap it. That wraps it up right there, all right. Well,
thank you folks for listening in. We hope you enjoyed
that this little trip down into the family of space telescopes.
(41:24):
Thanks for joining us. See you next time. Before you
still have a question after listening to all these explanations,
please drop us the line. We'd love to hear from you.
You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at
Daniel and Jorge that's one word, or email us at
(41:46):
Feedback at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening,
and remember that Daniel and Jorge explained. The Universe is
a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from
my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H m
(42:12):
hm
Hosts And Creators
Daniel Whiteson
Kelly Weinersmith
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