Building With Bacteria

How can bacteria produce chemicals like isoprene? What is gold chloride and how can bacteria turn it into pure gold? What are some applications of genetically-modified bacteria?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to
Forward Thinking Either and welcome to Forward Thinking, the podcast
that looks at the future and says, put me in
a wheelchair and get me to the show. I'm Jonathan Strickland,

(00:20):
and I'm Joe McCormick, and uh, and Lauren, we've given
the day off. Lauren was feeling a bit under the weather.
Perhaps uh, perhaps bacteria had something to do with it,
or maybe she just felt like it was too soon.
But today we wanted to talk about bacteria, microbes and
and ways that we have found two to get these
these tiny, these microscopic organisms to do stuff that either

(00:44):
they wouldn't normally do, or they would do it, but
they would do it at a very slow rate, and
to ramp it up so that we can actually make
use out of the microscopic world. Yeah, it's interesting the
idea of trying to get microbes working for us instead
of against us, since you know, we've all experienced plenty
of setbacks in our lives due to what bacteria have

(01:04):
to offer and arsenal, some some food poisoning in there
or something. In fact, one of the major culprits of
food poisoning E. Coli is going to pop up a
lot in this podcast. It's hard to stop ecoali from
popping up. That room temperature hot dog is yeah, just boy,
that that that potato salad that's been left out for

(01:25):
a while. That's that's still good. The future of engineering
is what it is. In fact, there's some applications will
be talking about where the reason why we're looking to
bacteria in the first place is because we don't know
of any way to scent the size the materials that
the bacteria produced naturally, or if we do, it's like
really inefficient, really inefficient, really expensive, very you know, time

(01:46):
and energy consuming. So it just makes way more sense
to go with the bacteria. But there was at least
one of the the articles that we read where specifically
they said, we cannot synthesize this in the lab, and
I think, well, well, we probably should say we can't
synthesize it today. Maybe sometimes down the road we can,
but it makes way more sense to pour the money

(02:09):
into research and development with bacterial organisms that do produce
this stuff and find ways of making them do that
at a much larger scale than what they currently do.
And then we just we reap the benefit that way. Yeah,
and in fact, that's one of the biggest challenges really
is figuring out how to how to optimize these processes

(02:31):
so that you get a usable amount of stuff, something
that you can use in manufacturing, for instance, or producing drugs.
We've been doing that. I mean, we we use bacteria
to produce insulin, so I mean it's it's one of
those things where you know, insulin for people who have
to do insulin injections, a lot of insulins generated through bacteria.

(02:51):
So through bacteria that's been genetically tampered with, like what
we reach in there and we we lift out part
of a plasm it and replace it with a piece
of human DNA that creates insulin exactly. Yeah, essentially you
gotta remember d N A. That's that's that's like instructions.
It's almost like a program. You can think of it

(03:11):
if you're thinking in terms of computers. You can think
of it as an algorithm or set of instructions that
tell uh A in this case, a a cellular bacterium cell,
a cell. There are words that are coming from me
a cell. This is where Lauren would jump in if
she were here. But you know, she's battling her own bacteria. Uh,

(03:35):
it's where a cell would end up following these directions
to you know, saying when this happens, do this. That's essentially,
you know, like an if then kind of function, and uh,
if we switch those instructions out, then that's what the
cell will do. That's drastically oversimplifying what's going on. But
if you if you take a really high view of

(03:55):
what we are trying to do, that's essentially the step
you try and find the little elements of d n
A that you can use to swap in and out
for these various kinds of bacteria and get the results
you need. And ecoli turns out to be one of
the ones we use the most frequently. And you might wonder,
you know, well, you know, I've heard about ecoli every time.

(04:16):
Everything I've heard about it is essentially that it's bad,
you don't want it, and you're uncooked hamburger. It's why
you need to ruin your hamburger before you eat it, right, Yeah,
because you don't want to you know, by ruin it,
I think Joe means that, yeah, cooking it until it's
well done, yeah, as opposed to to medium rare um. Yeah, yeah,
there are. There are restaurants in in Atlanta now where
they won't do it medium rare. At least they won't.

(04:39):
They say on the menu they won't do it in
the well A lot do and they just have a
little disclaimer there. It's like, you know, but you might die,
but it'll taste good and you'll be happy when you die.
So we're gonna talk a lot about E Coli. That
means that we I thought a quick history lesson on
Eco I was an order and so in the late
nineteenth century there was a German pediatrician who was looking

(05:00):
into why babies were dying. Uh, they were, they were
had they had a symptom of diarrhea, and they were
just they were dying, and he wanted to find out
what it was that was causing the diarrhea. Are you
talking abouts No? Oh, okay, I'm talking about Theodore. Oh
I'm sorry. I thought we were going down then. simWISE,

(05:20):
totally distract Theodore Escorridge. And if you wonder why it's
called E Coli Escaridge, that's his last name. It's it's
actually Escarrichia. Coli is the full name of E. Coli
and so it comes from this guy, Thomas es An Honor. Yeah.
He well, he was he was trying to figure out how,
you know, what, what was the mechanism that was causing

(05:42):
these babies to become sick and how could he fight that?
And so he was looking into it and he found
what he thought was the causative agent, and he thought
it was an organism that was causing this because he
was he was following the germ theory of illness. Yeah,
it was a a theory. Not everyone at that time
subscribe to it. So certainly not the people who jailed

(06:04):
Dignate simil wise right, right, right exactly. I mean that's
the thing is that you know, there were there were
there were those who were pursuing this line of thought,
and there were those who were denying it. He was
pursuing it, and uh, he ended up discovering what he
called Bacillus communists coli, which now we all call e coli.

(06:26):
And uh, it was actually named that after his death,
and we call it a model organism. And the reason
we call it that is because there's been so much
study of ecoli that we know everything about it. We
know the full genome of ecoli and also, uh, it's
a great example of something that you can work with
in a laboratory because laboratory conditions. You know, it can

(06:50):
grow in a very wide range of conditions. But it
does really really well in um in just room temperature,
so you can grow it very quickly. It has a
very rapid growth rate, so it has very simple nutritional requirements.
We know all the genetics about it, so and you
mean literally all the genetics. So it's kind of at

(07:14):
this point like open source BioWare right, exactly. Yeah, you
can look at this as saying this is this is
the slate we can build on. It's not quite a
blank slate because we actually do have to remove stuff
and then replace it with other stuff in order to
make the ecolie do what we wanted to do. But
it means that because we have such a deep understanding
of this particular organism, it's perfect for some genetic modifications

(07:39):
so that we can make it do other things. The
lenox of germs, it kind of is. Yeah, and it's
a little penguin shaped bacteria. It's not quite penguin shape
exactly shaped like a room temperature hot dog. Yep. Good times.
So so anyway, they're using eco life for lots of

(07:59):
different things, including producing various kinds of chemicals for both
drugs and for manufacturing projects. Yeah, so we mentioned that
it may it can make ethanol, which is the alcohol
that makes your wine awesome or your beer awesome. Or
it can make it can help make sorry with insulin,
right for drugs. What what else can it do? What

(08:19):
else can it make? Well, let's see it can make well,
it can make isoprene is supreme. Yeah, that's uh, that's
like jet airliner fuel, isn't it. It's also like the
stuff that can go into rubber. Yeah, so your tires
and your tires. Yeah, so I mean you can get
isoprene in different ways, right, you can. You can do
it essentially the way we get isoprene get lots of stuff.

(08:41):
You can get it from fossil fuels especially. Yeah, you
go to oil. You you sit there and say, well,
this has got another byproduct we can get out of
oil petroleum based stuff. But you know that's not necessarily
environmentally friendly. And it's true that you can also genetically
engineer e coolie to produce this stuff. In fact, it
produce a little bit on its own. So really, what
we're genetically engineering it to do is produce it, Yeah,

(09:04):
exactly much larger amounts for it to be efficient because, uh,
you know, you could start to harvest it from ecoli,
but if it's just tiny little amounts, it would take
forever for you to have enough for it to be useful.
It wouldn't be a good use of your time and resources.
But by genetically modifying the ecoli, you can dramatically increase
the output and thus make it something that's a viable option.

(09:26):
So it's making this carbon compound is supreme. What it
is a carbon compound, right, hydrocarbon, hydrocarbon, All those like
the plastics and all the things we make from oil
tend to be that. Right, So what's the investment in this?
Do you do? You just need to feed the bacteria. Basically,
you just give them some sugar based on corn or
sugarcane or something like. It essentially is that you you

(09:49):
feed them certain chemicals and then they will produce the
isoprene and uh, just in their regular process of of
of life. You know, it's just all it's all life
process for them. So it does mean altering the cells
a little bit so that they will do this on
a scale that makes it useful. But yeah, they're essentially
eating and pooping is what they're doing, right, And it's

(10:13):
micro organism level, so it's not really eating and pooping.
That's again kind of just putting it analogous to a
macro organism. But but for the purposes of this conversation,
sure they they eat stuff that is not as useful
to us and crap out stuff that's really useful to us.

(10:34):
So that could give us a very environmentally friendly way
of producing isoprene on a on a level that's important
enough for the manufacturing processes right now, you know, they're
they're mostly in the research and development phase of that
kind of work. But we've also seen bacteria producing other stuff.

(10:55):
You you pointed me to a great, uh study about
bacteria that produces gold. Yeah. I saw this and I
was like, oh, you know, finally the medieval alchemist's dream
is realized from the organism level. From beyond the grave.
They're groaning with envy like shots if only we had
found that, right. Well, apparently what they found is that

(11:18):
there um is a bacteria that can turn something called
gold chloride, which is this toxic chemical. Anything that has
the word chloride in it tends to be pretty nasty
for people. Hey, what about sodium chloride? It tends to
be if you break that, If you break that molecular
bond and you now have pure sodium and pure chloride,

(11:40):
that's two things that are really bad for people. But
I mean, you you put some sodium chloride on your lunch.
Didn't you know someone else did? Well? I didn't add
any I get enough sodium in my diet, right right? Okay, Well,
but so it takes it takes old gold chloride, which
is this some kind of nasty chemical. I mean, I've
never handled it, but that talk chemical diary that it's

(12:01):
it's it's something you don't want to mess with. Um
turns it into twenty four carrot gold just pure gold. Yep,
well pure, there's a point one percent impurity. Yeah, so
it's kind of like a that old soap commercial nine.
But yeah, it's a it's a it's interesting because you think, oh, well,

(12:25):
does this mean you could produce lots and lots of gold? Yeah?
Is this going to upset the whole gold market? Well, no,
it's not. Even though this is pretty amazing that they
can do this. The reason it's not going to devalue
gold and turn the world economy on its head, though,
I mean that wouldn't have the effect it once had now,
I guess um. But the reason that's not gonna happen

(12:46):
is the same problem we discussed with ice, aprene and
and other stuff. Right. It just it can't make enough
fast enough yet that it really matters that that and
and and gold chloride's not exactly you know, falling out
the sky. If we're we'd all be dead. But it's uh,
it's it's not it's not plentiful, and it does like

(13:06):
like in the article you linked me to, they actually
talk about how while while one scientists say it takes
it takes something that's useless and or or or worthless
and then turns it into gold. The article, the guy
who wrote it pointed out that in fact, gold chloride
costs quite a bit of money to purchase because it's
not gold, not more than gold. It's it's still you

(13:29):
would still have a winning proposition by the end of it.
But it's, uh, it's not like it's cheap. It's not
like it's this weird, you know, we we don't have
these gigantic pools of gold chloride sitting just under the
surface of the ground. Somebody was like, hey, I found
a way to turn Action Comics number one into solid gold. Yeah. Yeah,

(13:51):
it's more like, hey, I found a way of turning kryptonite,
like this fictional element into gold. Oh all right, well excellent,
um so any but it's still you know, it's kind
of a neat thing and that it's another one of
those processes that could one day become useful. Should we
have an easier way of getting gold chloride? Well, I

(14:13):
think it just illustrates that it's not just this chemical
like gold. Sorry, Bacteria can create all kinds of chemicals. Sure, yeah,
so yeah, we've talked about, um, you know, different kinds
of medications. There are a lot of other drugs that
are uh possibilities that that that bacteria could create. So
it's it's one of those things where where we could

(14:34):
create these little micro factories, and in fact, we could
even create micro factories that could work uh in vitro,
Like we could have micro organisms that you would inject
into a person to treat diseases like cancer. Oh yeah, yeah,
what we're reading about the these like these drug delivery bacteria,

(14:56):
right right, So again the bacteria would have their normal
natural processes altered by switching out some strands of DNA,
and what they would end up doing is they would
consume regular stuff, but they would end up producing cancer
killing chemicals. And you would coat the the bacteria with

(15:18):
a protein that would essentially turn it into a cancer
seeking bomb, so it would seek out cancer cells by
the proteins would essentially lock the proteins that are on
the surface of the bacteria and the proteins that are
a part of the cancer cell would lock together, so
it would attach itself to a cancer cell, produce the

(15:39):
cancer killing chemical, and deliver essentially chemotherapy to the cancer
cell directly. And the reason damaging all the surrounding tissue, right,
because that's the big problem with chemotherapy, right, is that chemotherapy,
when you introduce chemotherapy to a cancer patients not smart. Yeah,
it's not smart. It attacks everything, right, It's not just
attacking cancer cells, it's attacking healthy cells as well, which

(16:01):
is one of the reasons why chemotherapy has so many
nasty side effects, why people have to deal with uh
feeling nauseated and and having other other really really terrible symptoms.
While they're trying to fight cancer. Well, if you were
able to create a delivery system that would deliver the

(16:22):
chemicals only to the cancer cells, you would drastically reduce
those side effects. You wouldn't necessarily eliminate all of them,
but you you could reduce them so that like the
quality of life increases dramatically for the person who's undergoing
that treatment. Of course, from what I read this, uh,
this research is really promising, but it's also not without danger,

(16:42):
right because these these little many attackers, you know, the
tiny gun ships, if they get loose, they do actually
possibly represent a threat to people. Anytime we're talking about
introducing something that's going to have an ongoing active role
within a person's body, then clearly you have to be

(17:03):
really careful about how it's going to interact. Whether that
means it would produce toxins that would hurt the person directly,
or maybe it would have an unintended consequence. For instance,
it might kill off a cancer cell, but perhaps something
else that gives off ends up causing other problems, like
it could even perhaps cause cancer. I mean, it's you know,

(17:26):
there are all these things that have to be taken
into consideration. You have to do lots and lots and
lots of testing before you can ever get to a
point where you even have a you know, a patient
try this out, um, same thing is true, and you know,
maybe we'll we'll tackle this issue in a future episode
of forward thinking. But there are viral therapies out there
too that use they do pretty much the same thing

(17:49):
right with the tumors, Like they can be targeted to attack, Yeah,
you can, you can get. What you essentially do is
you take a virus, you crack it open, you remove
the virus from its shell. You put into the shell
some chemotherapy drug and and a virus. Just to be clear,
like it's not as complex as something like bacteria. It's
basically like a shell with some DNA and right. Yeah,

(18:12):
in fact, virus is so is so not complex that
we don't really have a classification for it, Like it's
not easy for us to classify it as life. It's
debt not on its own exactly, it's kind of it's
kind of in this interesting category all on its own.
But you could do the same similar thing where your
same similar thing. You can do the same thing where

(18:34):
you coat the virus with the protein, so it seeks
out the cancer cell and then injects the chemotherapy drug
directly into the cell. Now, in this case, the virus
is not producing the chemotherapy drug. It's just a delivery system.
So it's like, um, it's like a very smart injection,
whereas the other one we're talking about would actually be
producing the drug inside of you as part of its

(18:56):
natural process. That we were careful to make a distinction
between bacteria viruses, So maybe we should save viruses first, right, exactly,
like I said, maybe we'll tackle that. Yeah, we may
tackle that in a future episode, just saying that the
the approach for cancer treatment is similar but not identical. Right.
Uh So, So we've talked about, um, how bacteria can

(19:17):
be used to manufacture materials and and can be used
in medicine. But a little bit of what I've read
has something even more interesting that it can be used
for for efficient purposes in electronics. Yeah. I was reading
some of the articles you you sent to me, and
they are very interesting. I'm a little curious about a
couple of them. One of them was about how bacterial

(19:40):
nano wires could end up being a revolutionary electronic development,
and and that got me a little curious because as
soon as I heard nano wires, I thought, wait a minute, now, bacteria,
you know, you're talking about a single celled organism that's
not the nano scale. That's huge compared to the nano scale.
But they were specially specifically referring to proteins fibers grow

(20:04):
off of the bacteria protein filaments, which are much smaller
than the bacteria. So once I got into that and
I saw that what they were talking about, I thought, oh,
I see what they're saying. The filaments themselves are on
the nano scale as opposed to the bacteria, and that
they so nano wires. If you're thinking about the actual
mechanism where electrons are getting carried across, it would be

(20:27):
across these little filaments, then I have no problem with
I'm not sure that the wires themselves would be on
the nano scale, because I would imagine the rest of
the bacteria would be there too. But um, but maybe
it's just that I'm having a hard time visualizing exactly
what they're talking about. But yeah, you could grow nano
wires this way, and uh, again, this could make it

(20:47):
very useful for all sorts of applications, including things that
would need to operate within an organism because electronics it's
kind of hard to get the traditional electronics to operate
inside an environment, like the same thing with underwater sensors.
Anything that would normally cause a problem because of shorting. Uh,
the way the way the bacteria are able to bond

(21:09):
together with these these protein filaments could get around that.
So that's something that's a promising potential application. Keeping in
mind that this is in the earliest stages of research
and development, right we are we we can already use
bacteria in some types of electronics, right that. There are
bacteria that can be used to since the presence of humidity.

(21:32):
This is this is kind of interesting. Yeah, that so
that you're talking about that there's this bacteria that you
coat with nanoparticles of gold, which unfortunately this eventually kills
the bacteria, but it doesn't matter. It will still still work,
or at least it works. It works according to the
scientists who researched this, it works up to a month
after they have died. They called it zombie bacteria. But

(21:56):
you use gold mina. This is zombie cyborg backed area. Yeah,
and if you need movie, what is first you start
with the gold chlora and you give that to the
gold making bacteria. And then what do you do with
the gold, Well, you actually have to get it into
the you know, make it nanoparticles you have to get

(22:16):
into and yeah, on the nano scale, elements can have
very different properties than they would on the macro scale.
So for example, silver, silver already has some antibacterial properties
to it, but on the on the nano scale, those
are very greatly uh emphasized. So you actually can find
bandages that have silver nano particles in them because it

(22:39):
will help fight off or keep keeping a wound infection free.
Oh I didn't know that. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. But
you know, the same is true across many elements that
when you get it down to the nano scale, they
start to exhibit different features. Well, okay, so we're talking
about nanoparticles of gold. Nanoparticles of gold, and they essentially
coat the bacteria so that it creates a way for

(23:03):
an electronic charge to move. Our electrical charge rather to
move across the bacteria. So you think of the bacteria
as just kind of a little blip in a in
a circuit. Now, if that bacteria encounters water, it starts
to swell. Now, the gold nanoparticles are actually on these
little those little filaments on the outside of the bacteria, right,
so the bacteria is beard. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a

(23:25):
you know, think of a like a hedgehog with these
little bitty gold nuggets on the end of all the
little bristles. Well, if that hedgehog starts to expand, the
bristles start to move further apart from each other, and
it creates gaps between those gold nanoparticles. So if it
creates enough gaps, then that electric charge can't move across
the particle the way it did before. And because you're

(23:45):
talking about a very very tiny organism, you can get
some pretty incredible sensitivity on here, so you can detect
very minute changes in humidity, which could be really useful
for certain things like imagine a library that has rare
works in it that need to be protected at a
certain level of you know, dry air, and anything below

(24:08):
that level, anything where the humidity rises too much would
be a danger. Then a sensor in that environment would
be very useful. Also, same things true for things like
clean rooms where you're putting together microprocessors. Obviously, obviously cigar stores.
I mean, I don't know how I left those out. Okay, so,

(24:28):
uh so we've got bacteria manufacturing chemicals and materials, manufacturing drugs,
and we've got them working in electronics and electric circuits
in the propagation of electrons. Can they do mechanical work
in any way that's useful? Uh? Well, I wouldn't bring
your beat up old Chevy to any bacteria. Just hand

(24:50):
the ecoal I wrench. Yeah, that's stick the wrench in
the uncooked hamburger. But but oddly enough to work oddly enough, Yes,
they can do some mechanical work. Whether or not this
will ever reach a point where it's useful, uh, I mean,
I'm sure it will. When you talk about miniaturization, if
you get things down small enough, you need to have
some way of powering them, right. Oh yeah, if you

(25:11):
if you have a little micro fluid I machine, I mean,
you're going to have gears that need to operate on
the micro scale. Yeah, if it's working on a mechanical basis. Obviously,
if it's working on chemical or something that's different. But
if it's a mechanical device then yes, so um yeah.
The interesting thing is that the argon National laboratory did

(25:32):
an experiment where they made these teeny teeny teeny tiny
gears like like I think the three point eight microns across.
By the way, you should go look this up and
watch this because the video is really cool. Yeah, yeah,
there's there's a video. It's on YouTube and uh and
also you can find it in lots of different articles.
Will link to some in our blog. But uh, yeah.

(25:54):
The the interesting thing here is that they found that
by uh putting different levels of oxygen into this mixture,
they could induce the bacteria to push across the the
gears arms and propel them around in a circle. So
if you they could essentially they could create a stream
of bacteria teeming in a certain direction I think, and

(26:17):
that by doing that, if if they oriented gears properly,
they could turn the gears. Essentially, the bacteria would hit
the end like the point of a gear and then
stick with it and actually start to slide inward towards
the center of the gear while still moving forward, so
it actually would turn the gear. But what I want
to emphasize is how crazy the scale differences here, because

(26:41):
we're talking about um bacteria, which are tiny, tiny, tiny
um moving something that is that's tiny to us, but
much larger millions of times the size of the bacteria.
So it's bacteria which you cannot see without my powerful microscope,
moving something that's bigger than dust might Yeah, which that's

(27:04):
that's amazing. Yeah, so you you'd have to think about,
you know, get all the people you have ever seen
in your life together and moving the empire state building. Yeah,
I mean you're talking about and even then, you're not
talking about millions of times your size, right, So it
is a pretty phenomenal thing. And uh, if we're able
to make that useful in some way beyond getting hits

(27:25):
on YouTube, that's awesome. I think it's awesome either way.
Like Joe just just stares at me, like I just
stared at him. Yeah, I'm gonna punch you after this.
Um well, no, in the next podcast we're actually going
to talk about one amazing possible future application. But yeah, um,

(27:45):
but these are I mean, if we we've talked about,
or at least we've we've all heard about things like
nano machines, you know, whether they're nano robots or whatever,
we always imagine them as synthetic. They're little things we
build like little robots. That right, But we could end
up using a mixture of synthetic and biological. In fact,
it's far more more likely that we will use biological

(28:09):
material in those those devices, because Nature's built some pretty
amazing tiny, tiny tiny things that work really really well.
Well we have, I mean, one thing that I talked
about when I was writing this episode of the video
series is that it's funny how we have total intuition
when it comes to engineering things on on the proper scale,

(28:31):
the macro scale. Yeah, things that are about the same
size as us. This all makes sense, you know. Yeah,
this gear turns, this thing, It all just works. It
makes sense. It's it's intuitive. Yeah. Um, when you get
down small enough that all breaks down. You just can't
do it. We're not good at making things that work
on a tiny, tiny, tiny scale. It requires such a

(28:51):
level of precision, and also the rules if you get
small enough, the rules change. So but if we look
to nature, you know, nature is already there are already
examples of stuff in nature that show that this can work.
And so either we can take that and manipulate it
in some way, or we emulate it in some way

(29:12):
and therefore can make uh, our own nano machines and
UH and I imagine that a lot of our at
least our early work in nanotechnology will still focus on
the biological element and it won't be you know, because
that just makes more sense than to go completely synthing. Alright, Well,

(29:32):
I think that that wraps up our discussion about kind
of the crazy stuff that we're doing with microbes and bacteria.
If you guys have suggestions for future episodes of Forward Thinking,
you know there's something about the future that you're really
interested in. There's an application or a technology, or maybe
it's just something that you're concerned about uh and about
our future, and you want us to to address it,

(29:53):
you should let us know. We have an email address.
Our email addresses f W Thinking at discovery dot com,
or go to f W Thinking dot com and just
check out. We've got the blogs there, we've got the videos,
we've got this podcast is there. We also have links
to our social media. You can get in touch with
us on any of those platforms as well. We'd love
to hear from you, and we look forward to talking

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to you again really soon. For more on this topic
and the future of technology, visit forward thinking dot com.

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