Getting Your Money Etiquette Right #422

Joel doesn’t like to eat at fancy restaurants- not only because paying a ton of money isn’t his jam, but also because there are all these rules of etiquette that fine diners are just supposed to know. What’s he going to do with that 3rd fork anyways?! The same is often true when it comes to our money and the social situations we find ourselves in. Splitting the bill with friends when we go out- what should we keep in mind there? How should we talk about money with our co-workers, friends, and family? When you’re on a date, who pays for what and how quickly should you dive into money conversations with someone you’re serious about? And because we’re all unique individuals, we argue that there are no hard and fast rules that dictate our actions when it comes to our money. Instead there is a lot of nuance and it takes a lot of emotional intelligence in order to get your money etiquette right. It’s not always clear what path we should take and so during the episode we provide a helpful framework to help you decide. And we also share our thoughts on some common scenarios so that we can all avoid that awkward tension that might arise.

During this episode we both enjoyed Paranormal Electricity of Trans-Pacific Airwaves IPA by Burial! And please help us to spread the word by letting friends and family know about How to Money! Hit the share button, subscribe if you’re not already a regular listener, and give us a quick review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Help us to change the conversation around personal finance and get more people doing smart things with their money!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're discussing getting your money etiquette, Right, Joel, You know,

(00:25):
this episode reminds me of what we had of several
weeks ago with go Rick, where he spoke on the
unspoken rules of success and there are these things that
some people do some people don't do in life, and
it allows certain individuals to get ahead of life. Specifically,
in his case, he was speaking about your career. And
then nobody tells you those things. Most of the time.
You gotta figure it out. You can just trying to

(00:46):
help people figure it out earlier, exactly, you kind of
pick up on it, and naturally some folks do. But
then some folks just don't. Some folks have no clue that,
oh I should be sending a follow up email. Oh
I should proactively ask, like what can I do to
make your life better? Boss? Like that kind of thing, right.
I think the same thing is true when it comes
to money etiquette. There are some folks who are more
who you know, let's be honest. They have a higher

(01:07):
emotional quotient perhaps, and they're able to just pick up
on small little hints and clues and just how people
are responding to them when they're talking about money, whether
that's a good thing or a bad thing. But then
there's some folks who truly have no clue. And so
we are talking about money etiquette today because we want
this to be something that we are talking about more often,
because if this is you, you want to stop making

(01:29):
your friends uncomfortable every time you talk about saving money
or pinching pennies or being being frugal. These are all
things that can be talked about well. But it does
come down to what approach you take right. And sometimes
people decide not to talk about money at all because
they think that's the right etiquette. We disagree on that too.
We'll get to that later in this episode. So this
is basically how the Money Emily Post edition on on

(01:52):
today's show, and we'll get to that. But man, I
want to mention really quickly so everybody knows that we
love craft beer. Today on the show, we're drinking and
I p a by Barrel Brewing, but I wanted to
quickly mention that I think for the first time ever,
I balked at purchasing a beer. I walked away from
the cooler and I didn't take that four pack in
my hands because the price point was just too high.

(02:12):
And so I don't know, I wonder even prices have
gone up. I mean just even over the past few years,
we've seen the price First of all, it's gone from
six packs to four packs, which that alone really pisses
some people off. I don't mind because a liquid, but
for most there's a four packs. Yeah, um, but it
is a higher typically it's a higher quality beer, and

(02:33):
I can appreciate that, right, But the thing is like,
even with something that I love, I have a limit
and um and and so I think it was thirty
three or thirty four dollars for a four pack of
this delicious sounding sour that was like really highly rated
on on Tapped, and I was like, man, I really
want to try it, but it turns out that I
was like, it's just to me, it's not worth that, Like,

(02:53):
I don't want to try it that badly. There are
some really great beers that I can get for fifteen
or sixteen or eighteen bucks for a four act and
even that like took me a while to be feel
comfortable spending that. But yeah, I was like, whenever the
single section to see if I could find a single
can of that, even though that would be like nine dollars,
but at least then I'm like, all right, I get
to taste it, but I don't have to, you know,
put out all the money. I was gonna have to

(03:14):
remind you here for a second, I was gonna say, Joel,
like craft beer is our craft beer equivalent, Like like
this is something that we splurge on. But even in that,
there's got to be a limit. Right If if your
BMW is the is your craft beer equivalent, that's okay,
but you have to go all the way to the
M three edition that costs like thirty more not probably not.
So I mean, like I think even within the things

(03:35):
that we love, there are limits, and it's okay to say,
you know what, today I'm not feeling it. Maybe not. Yeah,
maybe in a few months you'll get used to it.
Because here's the thing, what if that was going to be,
like in your opinion, that could have been the best
beer in the entire world if I knew would not
have known because we didn't even give it a shot.
If I knew that that was what it was going
to be, I would have paid it. But I was like,
I mean, it's another beer and it rates well, but um,

(03:56):
I don't know. So I'll look again in the single
section see if I can find it next time, because
I don't mind spending maybe nine bucks on one great beer. Well,
if it's not that great, I guess that's the that's
the thing that you're trying to do, the risk your take,
like you would avoid spending a ton of money on
four beers where you're saying to yourself, man, that really
wasn't worth it. I can have an equivalent quality beer

(04:17):
for maybe twenty bucks for a four pack. Yeah, if
I'm underwhelmed on at thirty something dollar beer, I'm you're
stuck with probably not gonna be happy. You're gonna be like,
hey man, you wanna go in have these with me
on this particular jump off on your doorstep. But okay,
so I know we've all got that price point. I
just want our listeners to know too. We as had
a had a money hosts even have our price limits.

(04:38):
Even in the category that we love to spend money on,
it's still worth being price conscious. Yeah. I still bought
some good beers that day, but just not that particular one,
all right, Let's let's keep moving on the Matt. Let's
get to the topic at hand. We are discussing getting
your money etiquette right, and Matt speaking of unwillingness to
spend I personally, I don't really spend a whole lot

(04:58):
of money at fancy restaurants. Think we've talked about this
not too long ago. The one time my wife and
I did go to one of those fancy restaurants where
you can watch the chef cook. I was a little
nervous about the bill I was gonna receive. We like
good food, but the super fancy restaurant culture just isn't
really our jam. And like, if that's if there's like
three forks on the table, I'm probably walking out of
there because one I don't even really know, like which

(05:19):
direction you're going? Is it out to end? Is that
I don't even know? Okay, it's okay. I be're like,
what's that for doing at the top about place? I
don't know. You're more refined than me. I thought you
might have known. But I mean, I enjoy k and
I like going to fancier laser restaurants, But the actual
etiquette that goes into the niceties of which fork I'm
supposed to use with what course, I'm less refined in
that in that way, my pallets refined. But my etiquette

(05:40):
maybe could do some work. So maybe you and I
neither of us are the people to be giving etiquette
advice on today's show. But we're gonna but we know
money we're gonna push through. We're gonna try anyway, and
we're gonna talk about different money conundrums that pop up
in all of our lives, stuff like splitting the bill, tipping,
going on dates, and more. There's just there's also we
want you to know ahead of time. There's a lot

(06:00):
of subjectivity around this topic. So you're gonna hear our
opinions today, you're gonna hear our thoughts. But yeah, we
hope that they're helpful in informing you and giving you
some direction when it comes to those tough money etiquette decisions.
But just know too, these aren't like the ten amandments
handed down from on high from the kind of money house.
These are actually, uh, these are kind of how we
treat these things and how we think you should think through.

(06:22):
Maybe these money etiquette can untrums. They're meant to me
more like ballpark answers than like specific facts. Yeah, and
you mentioned the Ten Commandments. So because I think that's
so true. I think there are a lot of folks
who believe that there are some money rules or principles
that pretty much are etchton stone. Uh. They feel that
there's either a right way and you know, then there's

(06:43):
a wrong way to do things. But so much of
money is personal. Um, and not only personal, but there
are social expectations and different pressures placed on us, and
so sometimes we're not sure of what the you know,
the right path for us to take is. Uh. And
so for instance, if gratuity, if it's already included on
the build, do I I still tip extra? It's helpful
to think about this kind of stuff before the bill

(07:05):
hits the table, so you don't end up, you know,
guilt tipping or just you know pulling a money etiquette
faux pa just running away. Uh, you can't, Yeah, you
don't want to dine and dash. And also, you know,
we want you to be confident that you have the
money in your budget to actually cover that generous tip
if you so choose to. And so our goal for
this episode is to help you to think about the
right way to think about these things. We want to

(07:26):
help you to navigate these money etiquette waters. No doubt,
I think of us as like the third base coach
in baseball, Matt. You've seen him give all the weird
signs to the person to play, like tugging on their ears,
touching their nose, And that's kind of what we're doing here.
We're like making some signals. I don't watch baseball. I
know you don't. It's a playoff time, but is it? Yeah,
I don't even know. But we all know about your

(07:48):
lack of dedication to really any sport beside soccer. But
speaking of soccer, soccer is a very European sport, and
my favorite model of tipping comes from Europe over there,
tip tiping the South American way. Soccer is big there too. Well.
I just wanted to just to briefly mention that we
have kind of a unique system here in the States.
The lack of tipping actually across the pond and the

(08:11):
increased wages and the cost of the meal is just
a much more comfortable way for many people to do things. Man.
I know you and I maybe disagree a little bit
on this one, but you kind of know what you're
paying for and you know that the server is being
paid a reasonable salary, unlike here where tips are the
primary source of income, like that person who's serving your
food might be making a dollar fifty an hour, and
then you feel a little more guilty about how much

(08:34):
you should be tipping. And granted, yeah, if that's the case,
you should be tipping well. But in Europe, you know,
there's not that element at play. I think for me, honestly,
it's because of my entrepreneur background, where I knew that
if I didn't work, I wasn't getting paid. It's I
think I am more comfortable, for instance, with the American
way where servers waiters, where their base rate isn't that
high and it is predominantly, you know, focused on the tips. Yeah,

(08:55):
that's why. I mean. I remember as a kid going
to one grocery store where the person would bring your
groceries out and you would tip them directly, and then
going to this other grocery store and tips weren't allowed,
and so I don't know, just there's a different, uh
feel as a consumer, as a customer when you go
someplace and tips are involved or tips are off the table,
and I feel like right now in this environment. Part

(09:17):
of what makes it more and more difficult these conversations
around money etiquette is that tipping is expected in more
and more places. Yeah, that's so true, man. I think
some of the ambiguity around tipping is certainly something that
leads to the confusion around tipping specifically. But let's go
ahead and dive into conversations around money in general, because
I think, you know, broadly speaking, let's just talk about

(09:38):
how we talk about money. Because everyone knows that you
know money. It is an uncomfortable topic for most folks.
If you try to bring it up and make it
shut down, and you want to make someone squirm in
their seats, like start talking about their income, you make,
by the way, what's your budget look like? Man? Honestly
like you might even hurt her friendship. And so we've
got a few tips to make those money conversations less perilous,

(09:59):
uh and just more inviting. So the first little bit
of advice we would give to folks here is to
make sure that you are reading the room, uh, and
definitely avoid complaining about money in front of people maybe
that are struggling with their finances. So, for instance, if
you clearly make more than a friend or you know
that they you know, they don't nerd out about money stuff.
Just make sure that you're being careful about the conversation

(10:20):
and make sure that you're being a little more casual
and plus regularly complaining, that's kind of a not awesome
way to do things anyway, right, So like complaining about
first world problems, you know, like work piling up after
a weeklong vacation to the Bahamas. That's gonna be a
bit tone deaf to a friend who can't afford that
time off. Hey, how is that vacation? It was great?
But man, am I backlogged at working Now? It's like

(10:41):
I kind of wish I wasn't able to go on
the vacation. It's like, Oh, really, tell me how nice
that is. If you really want to get a conversation
started with somebody, I think just starting with like a
cool article that you came across, or just like an
interesting tidbit of information you recently picked up, and just
get the conversation started by you know, hopefully you're able
to pique their curiosity. So definitely don't complain and make

(11:04):
sure that your approach is a little more kind of
money philosopher rather than kind of this intense budget drill sergeant.
I think for a lot of folks who feel like
that they kind of have a solid financial footing underneath them,
they can approach some of those conversations with you should
be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that, uh, And
maybe instead they just want to talk to their buddy,
you know, like they just want to talk to their girlfriend,

(11:25):
don't necessarily want to hear all the different things they
could be doing differently with their money. Yeah, as a
husband over the years, have been married eleven years, and
I have realized it's taken me a while that oftentimes
when my wife is having an issue, like, she doesn't
want me to fix it. She really just wants me
to listen, empathize here, um and sit there with her
end whatever problems she's going through. And I think the

(11:47):
same thing is true when we talk about money with
other people. When when people either bring up an issue
or when you start to talk about money with them, uh,
in order to keep them from shutting down or from
completely de ailing the conversation, usually it takes just being
a little more empathetic and you know, just hearing what
they have to say, being less prescriptive. That can come later,

(12:10):
but especially in the beginning. I think, yeah, reading the
room and recognizing when someone is basically screaming at you
from inside their brain. Hey, no, no, no, that's not
what I'm looking for, so that you can calm it
down and bring it back to like, okay, yeah, well,
I love talking because we're all about talking about money.
We don't want you to come never talk about money
with people. We think it's really important to have that conversation,

(12:30):
but it doesn't always have to be do this, not
that exactly. I think figuring out whether this is a
I'm sorry, that really sucks conversation or if this is uh, okay,
let's see how we can fix this conversation. I found
that to be incredibly valuable in my relationship with my wife,
right right, And uh yeah, what about talking about money
at the workplace, that's like, um, that's different than talking

(12:51):
to your significant other or talking to a friend. You'll
want to take We would say a similar low key approach,
at least at first. And you know, we want you
to talk about money, but we don't want you to
get in trouble. And sometimes in the workplace, if you're
talking about maybe in off topic convo, like like talking
about your personal finances, that could be something that your
boss over here is and they're like, no, no, no,

(13:11):
shut it down, and you'll you'll you'll find that most
coworkers actually don't want to go there with you. But
we also think that doesn't mean you shouldn't try read
those cues though, and then shut off the conversation quickly
if that's the response you're getting, If you're getting kind
of stone walled or you can tell that person is uninterested,
don't keep pushing the envelope. But yeah, you'll likely find
that some of the folks you talk to will be interested,

(13:33):
and it can be fun to connect with your coworkers
on that level, especially if personal finance is super exciting
to you, super interesting to them. You listen to how
the money, so you probably are interested at least to
some degree. But yeah, I think it's really important in
that process to read the room again and make sure
that you're not pushing a conversation that isn't wanted. Yeah,

(13:55):
and unlike your friends, your coworkers can't just stop seeing you,
you know, like you still have to continue working on
the project, where as your friends can I don't know,
maybe stop returning your text or your calls. Uh. So
you want to make sure that you're being sensitive to
the different topics that you're bringing up around them. But okay,
what about compensation specifically, because I think that's a workplace
conversation that again I don't hopefully we don't see this

(14:18):
too much. We we don't want you to completely avoid
these conversations, but you've got to be careful, especially when
it comes to the compensation because obviously this can get
pretty awkward. How much money you make, that's always the
way to start it. But we do want to talk
about because part of what we're doing here is destigmatizing
this talk around money. But we would recommend that you
only do it with different employees maybe who you would

(14:39):
call friends or you've established some trust, and also make
sure that you have a good reason for asking, you know,
like I wouldn't kind of go at it with So
how much do you make question? Approach it maybe for
from a standpoint of curiosity, this is when you know
your delivery, how you breach the topic, this is everything. Uh,
you know, you could approach it from the standpoint of
being concerned, maybe like seriously maybe you're night, Uh, you're

(15:01):
were a little bit worried about how much you're getting
paid versus the value that you're actually bringing the company.
And obviously knowing someone else's salary would would be able
to provide you some helpful knowledge when it comes to
asking for a raise in the future. And of course
it's worth pointing out that you want to make sure
that you keep whatever they share private and confidential. Honestly,
it might even be best to kind of have the
conversation off premise, not just like in the break room

(15:23):
for everybody to hear as you as they're walking by.
Maybe instead you are able to grab the beer after work.
But these conversations really can help you or your coworker
make more money. It's not just about what it can
do to help you out, um, but it is important
to be careful with your approach and your tone as
you enter into some of these conversations. Yeah, Matt, you

(15:43):
know it's interesting. My my friend, our friend Jesse, who
runs the blog in the podcast called Best Interest, he
and I were just chatting on Twitter the other day.
Well he mentioned, hey, I just got a massive raise, uh,
like a few months back, and he kind of mentioned
that it's really it's it's been made a huge impact
on his ability to invest more money. And I was like,

(16:04):
that's awesome. How'd you do it? And so he shared
some really good tips for how he did it, and
one of the things I wanted us to know was, well,
how did you know you were underpaid? And he said
part of it was just water cooler talk, honestly with
some fellow employees, and so I think, yeah, that's the
way to do it, kind of like, well, what are
new employees making like you want to kind of try
to get to the bottom of that in an ethical

(16:24):
and above board way. And he was able to do that,
and it made a big impact on his ability to
then go to HR and say, hey, I feel like
I'm not I'm not getting paid what I'm worth. I've
been here two years. People that are just starting out
are getting paid as much or more than I am.
And they were like, sorry, Bud, we're not paying anymore.
And then he said, okay, cool, I'm gonna you know,

(16:44):
he didn't tell them this, I don't think, but he's like,
I'm gonna go hunt for jobs. And he end up
getting a job offer that was more lucrative than what
he was currently making. And so he went back and
he was like, guys, I think I'm gonna take this job.
And they were like, well, wait a second, I'll leave.
We'll pay you more. And so that is the classic,
tried in true way to make more money where you work.
But it does involve that difficult conversation sometimes that most

(17:06):
of us don't want to have. But if you want
to make more money, if you want to grow your salary, uh,
and you want to get paid what you're worth, oftentimes
it takes having that uncomfortable conversation. And I will say,
how do money etiquette rules dictate that it is okay
to start that conversation if you do it the right way.
That's right. All right, we've covered money conversations in general.
We've talked about it within the workplace as well. After

(17:26):
the break, we're going to dive into money conversations, money etiquette,
and social situations, including dating. We'll get to all of
that right after this break. All right, we're back from
the break. We're still talking about money etiquette, and we

(17:46):
are going to get to etiquette tips. When it comes
to dating, that's fraught with peril for lots of people.
It's like, I don't know how do I navigate these waters?
But Matt, you you have plenty of experience in that area.
We were almost the bachelor on season three back in
the day. Right. Uh. Yeah, I was the first Bachelor
to have actually gotten voted off the island. I don't think.

(18:07):
I think so I was a survivor. These are pretty sure.
I was married when the first started. Dog, it's really
good you aren't on that show then. So but all,
let's let's start. If always talk about restaurants and tipping.
You know that moment when your date is waiting quietly
while you figure out what the tip is going to be, Well,
those are awkward situations, and it's Matt, It's very much

(18:30):
like the way I feel at a fancy restaurant when
there's three forks. I have no idea what to do.
I just feel out of place. But yeah, how do
you navigate that situation? Well, like, how do you do that? Plus,
like I said before, so much has changed when it
comes to tipping. It seems like it's suggested to being
suggested in more and more places. Everybody flips over the
iPad and they they've got preset tipping amounts. And you're like, huh,
what I didn't think. How don't used to tip here?

(18:51):
And it's a little nerve racking. So um, with cash disappearing,
it's becoming more and more of a problem. We're all
paying digitally and we're getting tips said guess hit at
us right and left and then, which to a certain
extent I appreciate because there's some folks out there who
aren't as good at the math. Uh. And so for
those folks, I think they're they see it as as
welcome relief. But things have gotten a little out of hand. Yeah,

(19:11):
And there's some places where there were just no tip
zones before and now it's like, wait, no tip zone,
we tip here now, okay, all right. I feel like
if Seinfeld was still around, they would totally do a
show on you are in the no tip zone. Sorry.
But and then when it comes to choosing no tip
or custom tip, those boxes are like super tiny at
the bottom of the screen, like they don't want you
really looking there. It's like the checkbox at the bottom

(19:33):
of the opt out email, like when you're signing up
for a new product exactly. It's like the pop up
on the website and you're like where is the X button?
Oh my gosh. Yeah, Like lately they've gotten even more
nefarious about that, Like the designs of the background make
it impossible to see. I swear I stared at one
the other day that or you're just getting older, No, dude,
it was it was a Spotify ad. I swear it
was a Spotify ad and I go with the you know,
the non premium Spotify and I could not find I

(19:54):
was like, where the heck is the X. I'm not
gonna agree to this And it was completely blended in
with the artwork in the top corner. They're being a
little too sneaky about it, right, Okay, So how do
we deal with kind of this newfound environment when it
comes to tipping? Matt, Like, what are your some of
your thoughts? Well, another thing to you, man, I'm just
always curious to see what those tips suggestions are, you know,
like tip creep. That's totally real. Now with a lot

(20:17):
of businesses and restaurants changing how they serve you, I
think this changes the equation as well. So for instance,
like should we still tip the same even if my
my restaurant is short on servers? And like it feels
like I'm basically serving myself like you basically went to
Piccadilly instead of you. It's like a buffet. That's a
lot different of a scenario. That's a much different experience.
Even at a local ice cream place, the suggested tip

(20:39):
amounts are twenty, which is completely ludicrous. That should be
borderline criminal, I would say for ice cream. Uh, And honestly,
even at some coffee shops, you'll just see like a
basic like one dollar or two dollar or three dollar amount,
that kind of thing that might mean you're tipping a
dent on the cup of coffee. And here, like, let's
be clear, we're not trying to be cheap skates. Barista's rock.

(21:02):
They can work really hard, but it is not a
full service, like high end dining experience. But I think
because those options are being presented, it can like guilt
individuals into tipping more than maybe you otherwise would have,
just because you're kind of stuck right there in the
moment when they're looking at you. I think if that
barrista gives me three spoons to choose from to stir
my cream in the coffee, I would be willing to

(21:23):
tip more. You're gonna always reach for the golden golden spoons,
liver spoon. What're gonna do? I mean, I'll go either way.
I'm not I'm not piggy, but yeah, so so what
do we suggest, I guess in this new tipping environment,
we would say one like Matt said, don't be a
cheap skate, don't be cheap. We'd rather stay at home
and eat than to eat out and to not tip.
Well that is, you know, impacting somebody else's livelihood by

(21:44):
sitting down eating the meal, taking up their time, and
then not tipping as much as you should if you
can do it properly, don't do it at all, exactly,
And with many small businesses still on the road to
recovery because of the pandemic, purposefully opting to tip more
whenever and wherever you can, is it great strategy? Like
we think you should intentionally choose and try to be
more generous when it comes to tipping. When we talked

(22:06):
about this a lot back last spring, back when all
the restaurants were shutting down, it's just like, hey, make
sure you're going out there and supporting your favorite restaurants
because you want to make sure. Granted, this is before
the ppp uh well, owning legislation went three when that
wasn't enough for was not enough, I completely agree. But
getting out there getting those gift certificate, it's making sure
you're tipping extra, you know, on on top of whatever

(22:26):
your order is. We're all about that and making sure
that we are being active in our communities. But at
the same time, you gotta find that balance, just like
you're talking about earlier with the beer. We splurers on
craft beer. But at a certain point, you gotta figure
out what's reasonable for you, right. Yeah, we were even
suggesting use some of that stimulus money to help your
local economy, for sure, but we would say to make
that choice ahead of time, and don't let those subtle

(22:47):
tip nudges be the deciding factor in the moment, Like
the iPad gets turned around in your direction and you're like, uh,
like deer in the headlights, you clinch up. Exactly, I've
been there and so I realized, you know what, I
have to have a plan of action and before I
get to this point or I hesitate in the moment.
So yeah, we would say, don't be afraid to craft
your own tip amount instead of using this suggested preset

(23:08):
tip amounts and when you kind of have like, you
know what, if it's a coffee shop, I tip ten percent.
If it's this place, I tip fifteen. If it's this place,
I tip or potentially even more if the service is awesome.
You know, it might be worth it to have multiple
categories for how much you're tipping. Those simple quick interactions,
you mutant to tip LUs. For those bigger ones, For
those finer dining experiences, those three FOURK restaurants, you might

(23:29):
want to tip more. Totally. Yeah, let's talk about eating
out with friends, because this can kind of be a
tough etiquette scenario that you might find yourself in because
we've probably all been in the place where we're trying
to maybe save a little more money than our friends are.
You're like over there ordering water, one of the cheaper
items on the menu, and I get the water in
the cheerios please, And then there's that that that one
friend who's just like, hey, let's just put the bill

(23:50):
down the middle. It totally sucks to be in that situation,
but we feel this is an important lesson that we
need to learn from because it's, like you said, it's
toffer to have this conversation and after they've made that suggestion,
it's tougher to make that decision after they've spun the
little iPad around and it feels like you're in the
hot seat. And so it might sound awkward to have
this conversation about picking up your own tab ahead of

(24:11):
that dinner out, but just being upfront about it is
going to be the winning move. Go with that, you know,
the slightly awkward chat earlier instead of the really awkward
one later on. And another thing too, if you are
you know, and you're like, oh no, like it's just
fun to split the bill, well, not everybody thinks it's fun.
If you're the one making that suggestion, we would recommend
for you to think through, Okay, what did everyone order?

(24:34):
Like did we order equivalent food or equivalent drinks? Because
you want to make sure that if you are suggesting
that that you're you're you're being fair. Yeah, I think
another really important thing to do, Matt. You're right, have
the conversation ahead of time with that friend. Hey, last
time you suggested splitting the check and guess what. Here,
here's here's where I'm at with money, and here's what
I'm trying to accomplish. And so for me, like, I'm

(24:54):
totally down with going out to eat, but I'm trying
to spend a whole lot less, So this time, can
we just pay our own way. I think that's a
great conver station have, and like really shouldn't make anybody uncomfortable,
that's understandable. I think your friend will appreciate the fact
that you mentioned and that you actually kind of opened
up a little bit about what's going on with your
you personally, what your goals are, and you know what,
you just started a money conversation right there too, which

(25:15):
school that could lead to some more interesting combos down
the road, potentially even prodding them to, yeah, ask you
some questions about oh wait, wait a second, wait, you're
investing for retirement, like or people supposed to be doing that?
Then uh yeah, it could be could I end up
helping your friend out? Actually, in the long run, I
think it's also okay to make an alternative suggestion. Your

(25:35):
friend might have suggested a nice dinner out, but you
might say, you know what, I don't even want to
go out and drink water and get the cheapest thing
on the menu. I'd rather just stay at home in
order to reach my saving school and that's okay too,
but be honest about that as well. So maybe say, hey,
my eating out budget, it's really tiny right now, I've
exhausted it for the month. How about you come over
for a morning coffee hang instead. Your friend might be

(25:58):
like relief to right, because they just want to hang
out with you. They might not necessarily care about the
fine dining experience. They might have like a lot of
respect for you that you're letting your values drive your
spending decisions. And so yeah, I think it's just important
to have alternative suggestions ready. Just because that one thing
they suggested didn't work out doesn't mean you can't offer

(26:18):
up something I'll sorry, Hey, let's go for a hike
on Saturday morning, Like, let's get outside for a high,
go for a walk. How about you come over here,
let's la have some coffee here and then we'll go
for a walk instead of us meeting at a coffee shop,
especially if like you make good coffee, Like I don't
necessarily that kind of go French press, and I think
it takes fine, but like I don't know my French press.
My standards aren't high. But yeah, if you make like
good pour over coffee or something your friend might be

(26:40):
excited to come over and like, oh, give me some
of that arrow press, right, yeah, it taste your stuff. Okay,
So what's funny is that Kate and I are literally
we we literally just did this. We are going to
be having dinner with some a couple. They're college friends
of ours, and we invited them over to our house
before we're gonna and this is gonna happen tomorrow. Uh,
and we're gonna have a drink at the house before
we go to dinner. Uh. And it's for us, it's

(27:02):
kind of less about being super frugal. The fact is
four drinks at home is going to be a fraction
of the cost of actually going out and all of
us getting a cocktail while we're out. But then again,
it comes down to the conversation how we're going to
split the actual dinner bill. And I feel like we
know them enough well enough to like I'm going to
be the one probably to suggest that let's just play
it down the middle, but just you know, given the

(27:22):
conversation that we're having right now, like I am instead
going instead of like suggesting it, I'm gonna maybe ask
it and be like, hey, yeah, cool, if we just
split it down the middle, because I think the act
of asking rather than suggesting even that right there, can
kind of open the conversation up to where someone feels
a little less pressure to just go along with it,
as opposed to being like, well, actually, do you mind
if we kind of separate out where you know, maybe

(27:42):
we're maybe they would say that they're on a budget regardless,
you kind of want to set the table for just
a nice, healthy conversation. I thought your classic move was
when the bill came to go to the restroom for
an extended period of time, maybe out the window. You've
never actually done that, right, I'll cost you A friend
keep saying it's almost like like, I mean, you say
it with much confidence, uh, and it sounds like almost experience. No,

(28:06):
I never pulled that one. Uh, never done the dining dash.
Never done that to a friend either, And that's that
would be the opposite of etiquette, So that would be cheap.
Don't do that, all right, Let's let's talk to you
mad about just kind of other maybe money things that
pop up. This one is something that we've experienced as parents.
Let's say, like, what's the etiquette surrounding contributing to a
gift for a teacher at like your kids school. I mean,

(28:28):
I feel like, similarly to planning ahead, you have to
make sure you have room in the budget for stuff
like that, and you have to know that those quote
unquote unexpected expenses are going to happen, right. I think
it's it's easy to get blindsided and say, wait, I
don't I don't have money for that, like and you
didn't know it was coming. But really, those are the

(28:49):
things that we shouldn't cheap out on, and we should
give something towards. And like, I think just setting aside
something to the tune of twenty bucks a month for
requests like teacher um or other things in that similar
vein is a good idea. And I think that takes
a whole lot of stress out of these requests for money,
because yeah, they don't really come out of left field,

(29:10):
even though we feel like they do. So playing ahead
for them, give accordingly instead of like getting that stress
ulcer every time that email comes through and you're like,
I am I supposed to give money that now I'm
supposed to do. And even just something simple like for instance,
my son's school, he's too he's going to school a
few days a week and they had a pumpkin patch
and we took the time one to go volunteer and

(29:31):
help set it up. But then we're gonna buy an
overpriced pumpkin there because of the good that that money does.
Like I could go to Aldi and give me a
five dollar pumpkin, but I would rather spend the extra money.
And this money goes to literally benefit his school and
refugee families. And I'm like, I'm not cheating out of
the pumpkin, Like, of course I'm putting my money there,
but I have budgeted money for these kinds of purposes.

(29:54):
And really that's what it takes so that you're not like, yeah,
getting freaked out every time you get asked for money
or something like this. Yeah, that doesn't mean that you
should feel compelled to give to everything, right, Like, I
think one of the other etiquette conundrums is when people
ask for money in the moment, and even if it's
not to our faces. Right. I'm talking about the rise
of go fund me's online that you might see on
social media. See them on Facebook, for instance, if someone

(30:16):
has a birthday coming up, they might be raising money
for a cause that they care about. But that doesn't
necessarily mean that you have to be giving to that
particular organization. Man, I see it all the time now,
and I'm like, sorry, it doesn't mean I don't love you,
and it doesn't mean I don't wish you a happy birthday.
But there's I'm not contributing to pay well, and I
don't feel guilted into that. Like. It also makes me
think of two like giving money like in the grocery
store checkoutline, that that is not something I participate in

(30:39):
because almost all of my giving is pre planned, uh,
and it is funneled towards the organization that I know
and that I love. So this is an example where
I think we believe it's better to be proactive and
intentional with our giving rather than being you know, passive
and casual about it. We don't want you to be cheap.
Do give your money, but just make sure instead that
you're taking the time to look up and read search charities.

(31:00):
And you can do that via a site like Charity Navigator.
That's a fantastic site that we've mentioned multiple times here
on the show, where you can go online, you can
look up the different organizations, you can see how much
of the money that you give to give to them,
how much of it goes towards expenses, how much of
it actually goes towards the cause exactly. But you got
I mean, but kind of going back to what you said, Jill,

(31:20):
you kind of have to find that balance between being
intentional and proactive. I feel like this is a perfect
example of you and me, because I feel like you're
a little more you know, a little going, you know, shooting,
shooting from the hip a little bit um, whereas I'm
like overly structured and or you know, organized. But at
the same time, I feel like I do need to
allow some margin in my life when it comes to
maybe something like a over price pumpkin. Yeah, I have

(31:42):
to be okay with that. I think there's like a
difference in how I feel too when I give to
something spur of the moment, usually like and I don't
mind setting So I think it's okay to set aside
in your budget some money for spur of the moment
gifts if that's your thing. But for me, at least,
they provide a really small, like feeling that I've done
something good for a really short period of time. But

(32:04):
when I have pre planned my giving, and I give
it consistently to the organizations I already know and love
and am connected to the work they're doing. That feeling
the way I feel about where my money is going,
it lasts longer and uh and so yeah, it really
it's up to each individual how they want to give
their money. But just be prepared in advance, know that
you're going to get maybe asked at the grocery store,

(32:26):
and be comfortable, like, you're not a cheap skate. You're
not a bad person if you decide not to give
in the moment consistently, Like if you always say no
to that, that doesn't make you a bad person. If
you feel like you're being generous, there you go with
your money overall total. And let's talk about generosity, Matt,
when it comes to like giving or a gift giving
with family and friends. We are in October, and so
people are planning for the holidays and there, um, if not,

(32:49):
you should be because of shipping delays exactly. We talked
about that a while back. You should be, yeah, actively
looking to buy your Christmas presents now, not waiting till
at the last minute because of some of those Yeah,
shipping delays leading to product shortages. But this is really
another uncomfortable spot that a lot of people find themselves in. Uh.
And yeah, they're bound to be some awkward moments for

(33:09):
lots of families who haven't communicated expectations well around holiday
gift giving. And this is just another instance where it
makes the most sense to get ahead of things and
to clearly let your family know that one you love them,
and to that maybe you're also working really hard to
finally destroy your student loans. Can once and for all

(33:29):
you can do both of those things at the same time.
I can love you and destroy my student loans, but
that doesn't the means I also, I'm not going to
buy you a fifty dollar gifts and that doesn't mean
that's going to destroy our relationship because we're talking about
it exactly, And that's really what it comes down to,
right Like, maybe instead of giving those expensive gifts this
year up to exchange time spent together or do some
sort of secret Santa. But those are the conversations you

(33:51):
probably want to start having now. You want to communicate
the expectations, just like you're planning ahead in your budget,
plan ahead and communicate well with your family so that
you don't show up on Christmas morning or whatever it
is and you've got nothing in hand, and you're like, well,
I'm saving money, guys exactly, don't you get it? But
if you talk about that and open up those lines

(34:12):
of communication far in advance, it's less of a shock.
It feels less like you just didn't you just weren't thoughtful,
and it feels more like, wait, they're being intentional here.
We want to help them, support support them in that goal. Yeah.
So on the note of gift giving, another real quick
one here, what are your thoughts as far as the
etiquette surrounding giving money as a gift? Uh? And as

(34:33):
you think about this, I'll say, as a half Korean
who has received my fair share of money, just straight
up cash gifts from my mom's friends, fully Korean, I
feel like it's maybe more of an Asian thing. But like, dude, like,
as a practical guy that likes to talk about money,
welcome cash the you know, like for like one of

(34:53):
our kids, like when they're born, like when a baby
is born, or for a wedding, It's easy for me
to lash onto practical little side of that. But what
are your thoughts on that? Okay, So I think money
is actually a better etiquette move than giving a gift card.
And that's really I do. And I think it feels
the opposite because a gift card feels more specific, it
feels like a little bit. I know you like this store,

(35:15):
so go buy yourself something night, but you get to
pick something from that store. I'm not going to order
you a meal. That's too personal. But when you look
at the stats and you see the amount of money
that goes unspent on gift cards each year, people get
gift cards, they get tossed in the drawer, they never
get spent. But do you ever not spend a hundred
dollar bill that comes into your into your life or
a fifty dollar bill. Yeah, it's cash, you're gonna spend it.
So I think from that aspect, like I think the

(35:37):
better etiquette is to give cash, and I think we
can like bring less stigma around that and start giving
cash more. I think the thing is to include a
note that that is thoughtful and I says, hey, I
know you and I know that this is something you like,
and I don't know what you're gonna spend it on,
maybe this, this or this, But yeah, I think that
helps make it feel a little more personal and a
little less like you just didn't know what they like,

(36:00):
what they care about. Right. I like that, dude, I
like that a lot. I think you could even include
some stats about the percentage of gift cards that go
on untapped. Yeah, just to convince them that you made
the right This guy's a total do we a total nerd.
But that is how we roll. All Right, we're gonna
take a quick break, but after the break, we're finally
going to get to talking about money and relationships. When

(36:22):
it comes to dating, we'll get to that right after this. Okay,
we're back. We're going to get to dating and marriage
in just a second, I promise. But first I wanted
to talk about we we just talked about gift giving.
Let's talk about lending money to family and friends, because

(36:42):
that is another zone of money that it's fraught with peril.
And it's like, well, that's the etiquette there when someone
I love asks me for money. So we would suggest
to really try at all costs to avoid being the
borrower or the lender in this scenario whenever possible, And
if you're the one borrowing money from a friend, pay
them back as soon as possible, or at least when

(37:05):
you say you're going to. If you're like, hey, I'm
gonna get paid two weeks from now, I promise that
hunter Bucks is hitting you back, hit you up at
the end of the month, exactly. Friendships can easily get
damaged if you don't, and if you're the one who's
lending the money. It's also helpful to not think of
it as a loan. So if your friend comes to
you and says, hey, let me can I can I
borrow Hunter Bucks and you say yes, don't expect to

(37:26):
get paid back. Think of it as a gift that
you're making to the person that you care about instead,
and if you somehow get paid back, it's icing on
the cake. Because if you don't view it that way
and that person, uh, this abuses your trust and doesn't
pay you back in a timely fashion, it's gonna be
frustrating and it could cause damage to the relationship. But
if you mentally are thinking of it like, you know what,

(37:47):
I'm gonna give them some money, it's no big deal.
If I don't give this money back and then, and also,
don't lend any money that you can't afford to lend
if you can't afford it, just be honest and say, listen,
I don't have the money to give you right now.
I love you, but how else can I help you out? Yes?
I love that so much, dude. This also makes me
think of co signing because this is kind of another
form of lending your You're lending your good name, you're
lending your credit to somebody, and even in parents in

(38:10):
child relationships, it can become a source of contention. And
so if someone wants you to help them to buy
a car, for instance, with your good credit, like this
is probably going to be a bad idea for you.
When you co sign, you are telling the lender that
you are going to be good for the money. Uh.
And so instead, we would recommend that you kind of
maybe see that ask from that individual as kind of
the perfect way to start a conversation about how they're

(38:32):
handling their money, like what is it that they can
actually afford? Hopefully that can lead to I mean, if
they feel comfortable enough asking you to co sign, hopefully
they're open enough to handle some additional conversations about money. Right. Yeah,
it's like, hey, mom, dad, can you help me co
sign for this brand? New Hanta Civic and it's like, wait,
slow down there, let's let's let's see you know what
I'm unwilling to do that. How much money do you
have on hand? Can I help you purchase a used

(38:55):
one and find the right used card that's gonna cost
you a whole lot less? Like that opens up a
gateway for a better conversation. And I do think I
mean that parent child relationship it is a little bit different,
like like there's I feel like there is a gray
area here, especially if you have an adult child who
maybe doesn't have a credit score and they're asking you
essentially like you know that they're good for it, you
know that they are incredibly responsible, but you just want

(39:16):
to make sure that you've had these conversations with them
ahead of time. You want to make sure that they
are open to sitting down periodically and taking a look
at how those payments are going. That type of thing. Uh,
in real quick to joll there's actually another kind of
awkward situation regarding the parent child thing. What are your
thoughts when it comes to adult children who are also
hanging out with their parents who are presumably adults, right,

(39:38):
But like, when you get to that point to where
the child starts to pay their own way for things,
like saying you're gonna go out. You're in a situation
where you can you can both afford things. But it's
kind of like, all right, do we revert back to
the mom and dad take care of everything kind of mindset?
Are like, where do you think that line is? That's
a really good question. I think it depends on both
financial situations of both individuals, and I think as a parent, like,

(40:02):
that's what I want to do for my kids at
some point, once they've proven that they're responsible with money,
like once they get get out on their own, once
they have a solid job earning their own income. Once
I'm like, Okay, they know what they're doing. I want
to treat them in that way. But if it's one
of those things where they keep coming back to the well,
then I'm gonna be less enthusiastic. I think about, you know,
paying for paying for dinner or paying for anything for

(40:24):
them totally. Yeah. Like I think as a parent, like,
as I see many kids get older, I mean, and
we're like we're like that gates from this, But I'm
trying to imagine what this would feel like. And I
think I would want them to show some initiative, you know,
like like say they're gonna come back home to visit. Uh,
They've got a solid, you know, decent paying job. I'm
I'm not expecting them to like pay a certain thing,
but like for them just to be like, hey, you

(40:45):
wanted to pick up any groceries on the on the
way back to the house for the weekend, Like that
kind of thing that goes a long way and making
you want to them. Yeah. And I feel the same
thing like with my parents, Like they they're in the
place now where they offer to buy things, but then
I different things too, Like my parents they still do that.
They came around and stayed in the beach house that
we rented this past summer, and they were like, hey,

(41:06):
can we pay for some of it? And I'm like,
no way, Like this is my treat and it felt
really good to do that. But then other times they'll
pick up the tab at the restaurant when we're all
go out, and it's like that's super sweet. It kind
of depends on the situation, right, Like if you had
like a few years of just really tough times at
a job, maybe that you hated for them to have
offered that would have not only been incredibly generous, but
maybe welcome on your on your part. So I think
a lot of it does kind of come down to

(41:26):
the individual relationship with with you and your parents exactly,
timing circumstances, that all that, that all really matters. Let's
talk Matt about like more intense relationships. Welln't that more
intense but more romantic? More romantic. Yeah, and we're gonna
get into marriage too, But let's talk about dating for
a second. And it can be really hard to know

(41:47):
what the etiquette should be like when it comes to dating,
and Matt, we just to be honest, we've been out
of the dating world for quite a while at this
point in time, you for like what fourteen fifteen years
or fifteen years and me for eleven twelve years, and
so we would suggest getting the uncomfortable stuff out of
the way upfront. It's again, it's so much more awkward
after the bill comes to talk about who is paying
for what? And if you asked someone out, if you said, hey,

(42:09):
I like you, can I take you out to eat
or to wherever, offer to pay for the meal. That
might sound old school, but it's our opinion that if
you like someone enough to ask him out on a
date and you plan something cool, then you pay for it.
And of course it doesn't have to be fancy. I mean,
it probably can't be McDonald's, but it certainly doesn't have
to be the three fork restaurants, but more between three

(42:30):
forks and plastic forks. Right, And if you don't have
boatloads of dough for dating though, that's okay too. You
could still date people. And so yeah, we would say,
offer to pick up that love interest in your fancy
like two Honda Kord or whatever it is, and then
go for a hike. But yeah, or maybe meat for
a picnic in a cool park on a beautiful day.
You really don't need big money to wow someone who

(42:52):
you've got a crush on. Sometimes sweet and Goofy goes
a lot further, and just putting your actual foot forward
like who you are, as opposed to putting like you forward,
making it seem like you've got it all together. I
think sometimes people appreciate that. Most of the time, people
appreciate that authenticity, even if it doesn't seem like that's
what's going to be received. All seems like you're putting
a whole lot of stock in the sweet and goofy guy.

(43:14):
That's all I got. Someone's like talking to their their friends,
they're like, well, downside he's he's broke, he doesn't make
a lot of money, but on the up side, he's
really sweet and goofy. And you know, we we feel
that if like you're more or less like the one
who's being treated to a date, like, definitely don't be
the person who orders like the most expensive thing on
the menu and then also like the second, third, fourth

(43:37):
glass of wine. Uh. Instead, you know, be respectful, take
the lead of the person who you're on the date with.
That certainly feels like the respectful kind of path to take,
at least for in my opinion. One other thing, I
think it can be kind of sweet to offer to
go Dutch as well, where you you're both paying your way.
But you know, bottom line, we don't need to be
the ones here to to tell you that virtually everything

(43:58):
you do and say feels like it's under kind of
like the the dating microscope when you're out on a date, right,
But it is true that there are counless decisions that
communicates something specifically your thoughts on money to a date.
While you're out on a date, and if you're the
one ordering that fourth glass of wine, well, whether you
realize it or not, you are communicating something to them,
and so you just want to make sure that you

(44:18):
are sending the right signals. Yeah, and it goes both
ways too, because if you are crushing on somebody and
you've initiated multiple dates and you show up to every
one of them with like a gift every time, it's
like flowers. Yeah, yeah, and I like care, I'm all
about giving my wife gifts, bringing flower some stuff like that.
You've talked about your tulips, but especially as you're getting

(44:40):
to know somebody, um, and you don't know that very well.
If you're bringing something fancy every single time, it starts
getting out of hand. Yeah, you're communicating that you're a
big spender, whether or not you have your finances in
shape and a more frugal receiver of these gifts. They
might not be used to you know what, these lavish
gifts that you're bestowing, And that's okay. But if that's
something that matters to you and you know, hopefully you

(45:01):
have your money game together, that's okay, go for it.
But more than anything else, just make sure that you're
being yourself. I think sometimes in the dating world it's
easy to get caught up in spending more money than
you feel comfortable doing. And you know, if you're actually
trying to find like a life partner, that's not really
what you're going for. You want them to kind of
recognize who you are, corks and all and somebody. I

(45:22):
promise somebody will love you for for those for those things.
You don't have to put on a front to win
somebody over. Sure. Yeah. So on a related note, we
actually had a listener who emailed recently about dating etiquette
and they wanted to know about using a coupon on
a on a date. So Joel, Yeah, what is your
money etiquette meter say in regards to that, Okay, I
don't want to date anybody or like be married to

(45:42):
anybody who isn't cool with me using a pupon right, So, like,
we likely you found the right person, right. So we
we regularly get these like mailers every month, and one
of our favorite restaurant almost always has a coupon in there.
It's right around the corner. It's a nice restaurant too,
It's like a two fourth place and uh, it's so
I'm I'm totally going to use the coupon if I've
got it, and you know what, it's a nice place

(46:03):
to eat out. And I think if you feel shame
in the coupon game because of what someone else might think,
then you need to get over it, because if they're
gonna if you're a coupon type of person used to coupon,
and if the person that you're going on a date
with isn't down with that, I think, um, maybe it
wasn't meant to be. And again, like each one of
these decisions is like, these are instances where you're communicating

(46:26):
to your your date, to your partner where you stand. Uh,
and yeah, if you are all about coupons, you want
to make sure that you've got somebody who can join
you on the coupon filled future. All right, Joe, let's
take it to the next level. Let's talk about kind
of like want to clarify I'm not a crazy extreme
cupon Okay, Now, honestly, I think this is like the
only time in your life when you do use coupons. Right,
It's very rare that I actually use coupons, But I mean,

(46:48):
if I get one and it's a place that I love.
I'm going to use it. All. Right, let's talk about marriage.
Let's take it to the next level. There's this term
that's kind of gotten more popular in recent years, and
that phrase is getting financially naked. Have you you've heard,
you know, we've talked about this. For sure. Once you've
progressed beyond the dating phase, you're considering spending maybe some
serious amount of time with an individual, maybe you're thinking
about getting married, then it is time to get naked

(47:09):
financially speaking. And that's because we feel that relationships that
are going to endure, uh, they have a foundation of honesty,
Like they are based on transparency and honesty. And so, man,
this is the period of time that, yes, it's important
to understand how your partner communicates, and yes it is
important to be respectful. But man, I feel that all
etiquett kind of goes out the window at this point

(47:30):
in time. It's about kind of stripping it down to
the numbers. Uh, there's no hiding at this point in
your relationship. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, you don't
want to necessarily do this on the first date, right, No, No, no,
of course, not like Hey, what's your name again? By
the way, here's my credit score and the amount of
dat I mean it. Uh, that's that's a bad time
to be a little too forward, just like other ways.
You could be more forward with a date, right, but

(47:50):
you've been dating for eight or nine months and you've
talked about getting serious and marriages maybe even on the
radar whatever. That's when you do want to start sharing
some of these things. You don't want to hide, even
your financial mistakes. And you know what, even those mistakes
probably have bread some better habits, right, we all learn
from those mistakes. So it's important to yea even in

(48:11):
that conversation, say, you know what, here's almost student loan debt.
But um guess what I'm gonn listening to this podcast.
I'm getting better with my money. And that's a good
spur for a conversation. And you being open is going
to make them feel more comfortable being open to and
that's a good thing because yeah, who doesn't want to
someone to love them warts and all. Like that's what
we always say, you know, we want someone to love

(48:33):
all of us and then richer for poor baby, and
then we hide a lot of who we are. Oftentimes
and yeah, you don't want to continue down the path
of a relationship if it feels superficial, because yeah, beyond
this point, you're committed to each other and you know
that your partner's problems are going to become your problems
when you tie the knot, And so you want to
know what you're actually getting into. And if this is

(48:53):
a topic you've managed to avoid so far, let's say
you have been dating someone seriously for quite a while,
maybe waiting into those waters with a conversation talking about
employer benefits in four oh one case is the way
to go, Like, ease on into it, don't like immediately
jumped to like how much debt do you have? Right? Yeah,
and you you can start easy. You can start simple,
get more comfortable as you go, getting a little bit deeper.

(49:16):
But it's time, like if you are getting serious with somebody,
you gotta know their financial standing and you've gotta be
honest about yours too, one man, you know, like, honestly,
the more financial secure I get, the more I get
excited about being generous. And that's not something we're really
talking a whole lot here, but it's like I've become
more likely to pick up that breakfast check with a
friend when we go out, or maybe even kind of

(49:38):
tipping more than I usually would, And I think that's
pretty cool, Like it's it's it's where I want to
see my money and going. But realize that, like I
know that not everyone is in that position, and that's
kind of what we're talking about here today. You know,
when you're talking with your friends, it can be tough
to hit all the right notes on the money etiquette front.
But hopefully we feel that this episode will we'll give
you a little more confidence to maybe suggest something more

(50:00):
affordable when you're making plans with your friends, or you know,
to create that custom tip amount for maybe a little
bit less than the suggested amount, or maybe this will
encourage you to talk about money a bit more freely,
just in general and definitely upfront. Communication is going to
be key when your etiquette moves involve others. We're all
likely gonna kind of come down on different sides of
the issue based on our individual circumstances. And here's the

(50:22):
thing that is okay, Like that is the thing that
makes each of us unique, that makes each of us
our own. But when it comes to our friends or
our romantic partners. You want to make sure that you're
having open and clear conversations about these things, uh, and
that you're not afraid to talk about it. Right. If
I had warm buffet money, I'd probably tip five dollars
on every coffee I got, and no matter what, on

(50:43):
every meal I ate out right. So you know, as
you reach different levels of financial fitness financial independence, you
can be if you want, more generous with that money
that's coming into your life. But I think to some
of these norms, Matt, like you said about choosing your
own tip amount, like that, those norms are worth break, king,
it's uh, And these are some of these are barely established,
not even new norms, and so why are we holding

(51:05):
to them? Like we're gonna be booted out of civilized
society if if we don't, you know, and the the
you're not welcome here anymore? Right, And the norms for
for so many people is to be in debt up
to their eyeballs because they are they're buying everything. They're
being um generous with money they don't even have sometimes
and you know, you and I were all about living differently,
being even a little weird. Sometimes, Um, you don't want

(51:28):
to necessarily needlessly ruffle feathers. But we think that there
are ways for you to handle your money well, to
have solid etiquette, but not necessarily doing what everyone else
around you is doing, and ultimately communicate well, be honest,
be honest with yourself, and be honest with the people
around you. I think if you are doing those things,
if you're being authentically you, then you're gonna come out okay.

(51:50):
But Matt, let's come back to the beer. This is
a collaboration beer by Burial up there in Asheville, North Carolina,
one of our favorites, A fantastic New England style I
P A and I was I feel like I picked
up on some kind of like tropical, some sort of
fruit vibes which you oftentimes don't get with the New
England style I P A and I was happy to
see that on the label it talked about some freeze

(52:12):
dried New Zealand savignon blanc skins, and so I'm kind
of like, oh, okay, maybe that's where some of the
maybe slightly more fruity notes came from. But it lent
it this brightness, uh that I appreciated and that you
oftentimes don't find with the New England I p A. Yeah,
it also had some hops from New Zealand as well
in this beer, and I feel like some of those
hops from like literally the other side of the planet

(52:33):
have some really interesting flavor. Some of the coolest I
pas I've had have had like Australian or New Zealand hops,
and so this was a really good beer. I don't
know what they're doing differently when it comes to hops
down there. Maybe they can just grow stuff that we
can't appear in the States. But yeah, this was a
really good beer. And really, anytime Barrel makes a beer,
I'm down to try it down there in New Zealand,
they the hops grow count of clockwise stuff clockwise, right,

(52:55):
they grow like down into the ground like carrots. Yeah,
I'm glad you know I got to each into way
one of these beers during this episode. And we will
make sure to share a picture of this beer, as
well as any other additional resources or links that we
may may have mentioned during this episode up on our
website at how to Money dot com. Yeah, and of course,
Matt and I, we appreciate you listening, especially to the

(53:16):
very end of the episode like this, right, Yeah, I mean,
we wouldn't be anywhere without the kind folks, the awesome
folks at least, the people we've met that listen, and
the how the money crowd is a special crowd. So
thanks for thanks for always being there for the show.
And yeah, we hope you have a great rest of
your day. So Matt, that's gonna do it. Until next time.
Best friends Out, Best Friends Out,