Quitting Your Job The Right Way #509

There’s a right way and a wrong way to do all sorts of things. For instance we think that the right way to load toilet paper is with it dispensing over the top of course! Or, sometimes you see guys at the beach and they’re beet-red but they’ve still got their shirt off and they’re likely not wearing any sunscreen- what’re they doing?! And similar to quitting your job the right way, getting burned seems to be a lesson that many folks don’t often learn until they are older, or until after they’ve learned the lesson the hard way. But when it comes to your professional career, we want you to realize that quitting poorly can have very negative long-term ramifications. And the flip side of the coin is true as well- higher pay, more work flexibility, and better opportunities in the future await! Learn what you should be doing before you quit your job, how to ensure that you’re not leaving money on the table when you leave, and how you can best transition out of your current job.

 

During this episode we enjoyed a Bumblestick Nut Brown Ale by Bhramari Brewing! And please help us to spread the word by letting friends and family know about How to Money! Hit the share button, subscribe if you’re not already a regular listener, and give us a quick review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Help us to change the conversation around personal finance and get more people doing smart things with their money!

 

Best friends out!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I and Matt.
Today we're discussing quitting your job the right way. Yeah,

(00:25):
it's pretty clear from the title of this episode what
we're gonna talk about. We were just actually before we
hit recorded. We're talking about the flight attendant who uh
this is a while ago, like, was it ten years ago?
Roughly at least the flight attendant who quit by pulling
the escape patch while on the runway down the slide intable, Yeah,

(00:46):
the inflatable slide with a couple of beers. Basically, what
we're talking about today is quitting the opposite way and
not doing it that way, the exact opposite, and so
we will go into detail later on during this episode.
Real quick, though, man, we wanted to talk about the
How Do Money socks that we just ordered. I'm sure
folks have been waiting for this announcement. It was episode

(01:06):
five hundred where we talked about sending out some merchandise
to listeners whose money tip we featured on the show,
and it has taken us this long to actually get
that all figured out. Bottom line, we were talking with
the nice folks over at Sock Fancy, going back and
forth on the design, trying to figure out what's gonna work,
and we finally placed the order. We're really excited. They

(01:27):
look awesome. We are really excited to share those with
with y'all. Definitely, it's the most money I've ever paid
for socks before. I don't normally buy a hundred pairs
of socks at once, because you don't get your socks
at Costco, where they buy at least a hundred pairs
of time. Well, in the same way, you do get
that quantity discount, which we got. But even still, we
received the invoice and we're getting ready to pay it,
and we're like, oh, what if we can maybe score

(01:47):
some sort of discounts, some sort of sales. See if
there's an your promo codes that they're offering. We wouldn't
be the how the money guys. We didn't try naturally,
we reached out and it turns out, I mean, we
did get to know them over the past couple of weeks.
As you know, you go back and forth, you kind
of build a relations and ship, you build some rapport,
and the guy was like, hey, you know what, you
got it. You guys will get the friends and family discount,
which was a ten percent discount code, and so we

(02:09):
were able to score a deal on the How the
Money Socks, which is only appropriate. You didn't even have
to marry his sister Matt to get it, no, And
so we wanted to share this because we think that
in most situations it is okay to ask for a discount. Obviously,
there are going to be some situations where it's inappropriate,
specifically when you're dealing with like a corporation and you're
standing in the check online at the grocery store, like

(02:31):
they're not gonna just be like, oh yeah, let me
give you ten percent off. That's not normally going to
be the case. No, but I will ask for the
actual price that's reflected on the sticker on the aisle
where I got the item, and because sometimes it will
ring up in correctly and not all wait patiently for
the price correction pushed back a little bit. But in
a lot of cases, especially when you're dealing with individuals,
you can ask for a discount, and oftentimes it comes

(02:51):
down to how it is that you ask for that discount.
We talked about this back in the episode three seventy seven,
and in a similar fashion, it was down to how
you quit because you can go about it the wrong way,
just like you can ask for a discount the wrong way.
But we think that there is a right way and
a wrong way to do everything. So just like asking
for a discount, that's what we're talking about today, quitting

(03:12):
the right way, you gotta do it with finesse, you
gotta do it with style. Yeah, And similarly, there is
a way that you could have asked for this discount,
and it would have been much easier for this guy
to say no, and I could have made his job
very easy. Yeah, the charge was the full asking price, right,
but there are ways you could have gotten shut down
really quickly, just by the way that you asked. And
and similarly, the way that you quit can impact your

(03:33):
future job prospects and your immediate future. Especially we're gonna
talk about people going back to work for the company
that they quit, and so if you end up doing
that poorly, well if that's not really an option anymore.
But we'll get to all that in just a minute. First, Matt,
let's mentioned the beer that we're having on this episode.
It's called Bumblestick Nut Brown Ale by Burmari Brewing. We
will give our thoughts on this cinnamony beer at the

(03:55):
end of the episode. But okay, so let's talk about
quitting your job and doing it the right way, and
it just talking about quitting, talking about, you know, asking
for a deal, talking about all sorts of there's just
a right and a wrong way to do almost everything.
It makes me think of putting your toilet paper on
the toilet paper holder. I think personally there is a
right way and a wrong way to do this. So
many people have the toilet paper coming out the bottom.

(04:19):
Crazy people with it dispensing against the wall. Yeah, yeah,
that's where my hand is. I am on the wall side. No, no,
I'm across from the wall, Like are you crazy? But
obviously the toilet paper should be coming out the top, right,
Like the same person installs their toilet paper. It makes
you think. Also, maybe someone at the beach and you
see them in their beat red and they are without

(04:39):
their shirt on, and it's like they didn't learn their lesson,
Like you forgot to apply sunscreen the first day, and
now you're doubling down by keeping your shirt off even
though you already look like a lobster. How do they
not know that sunscreen works? Magic, it'll save your booty.
And same with a T shirt, I guess when you're
already read. But and just like there are ways to
screw up your beach trip and your every day bathroom trips,

(05:01):
you can screw up majorrely when when you're quitting a job,
and so quitting poorly it just really can have long
term ramifications. But so can quitting a job the right way.
It can actually be a boost to your career. And
it might seem weird maybe to dedicate a whole episode
to this, but trust us, there's a lot to unpack. Like, yeah,
quitting is it's a it's a complex topic. Yeah. And

(05:23):
part of the reason that we believe that this topic
is important to cover is because more employees and more
workers are quitting than ever before. We're still experiencing the
Great Resignation, which started back in the spring of last year.
But there's a chance that you may have even been
part of the big quit yourself. But if you weren't,
you might be thinking to yourself that this this is
a fantastic time to make the most of a vigorous

(05:45):
job market. Uh, And so you might be parting ways
with your employers soon. And we want to make sure
that you do it the right way, because you know,
let's be honest, the stakes are are pretty low when
it comes to which way you put your toilet paper
on the toilet paper roll. The steaks are gonna be
much higher if you handle your job quitting poorly. Yeah, well,
I will say the stakes are high if I come
over to your house and I find your toilet paper

(06:06):
on the wrong way because old trashes, I'm not gonna
be your friend anymore. It annoys me. Well, but let's
talk about the why to here, because part of the
discussion we need to talk about is is why you're
wanting to quit in the first place, and statistics show
that switching jobs is the best way to earn more money.
This show is called How the Money, so people obviously
want to know more about that side of the equations

(06:28):
are main angle dude, or saving more, earning more exactly,
and and the the average. Just talk about the emotional components.
How it's gonna make you feel, Yeah, exactly. Let's talk
about our feelings a whole bit. Actually, we will talk
about that comes into feelings a little bit, because that
is important. Well, I think it's it's very important. And
we need to discuss that too. But but when it
comes to compensation, the average wage jump is is almost

(06:51):
higher when you switch jobs. That's that's on average, and
when you opt to stay with your current employer, the
average wage increases closer to five So you're making more
money with every paycheck. It's a great thing because you're
gonna be able to reach your financial goals more quickly.
But like you said, Matt, it's it's important to think
about other factors. To one of the other factors, specifically

(07:12):
in in the money in the context of money, is
to be sure to factor in your total compensation, not
just the headline salary number. I think sometimes people think
just about, well, am I going to get a boost
in pay, but you're missing out maybe on some of
the other benefits that your current employer offers that might
actually put those salaries more in line with each other.

(07:33):
So we want to make sure that you hear us
clear clearly. Quitting isn't an inherently bad thing, but even
good things can be done badly, and especially when money
and benefits are on the line, we want to make
sure that you're not screwing it up. Yeah, before we
go any further, let's go ahead and kind of touch
on emotions a little bit because what it makes me
think about our alleys doing the emotional side of things.
It is important to be well rounded here because just

(07:56):
think about what we've lived through over the past two years,
right like that it has had a significant act on
all areas of our lives, including our work lives. And
so it makes sense that covid UH and it's disruptive
effects that it might lead folks to make some different choices.
But it is also important to avoid emotional decision making
because changing jobs it can be a wonderful thing, but

(08:17):
the grass isn't always greener on the other side. It's
it's easy to think that though, when your emotions are
in charge, you know, considering that, I think for most people,
the fact that the pandemic is behind us, like that
the worst might be behind us, that is encouraging because
I think that means we might be able to make
decisions with the more level head as opposed to feeling

(08:37):
like that we might be making decisions based on emotions.
I'm just thinking back to what it looked like when
our kids were virtual schooling or learning at home. We
couldn't visit our friends and towards exactly just pitsion fits
and refusing to get on the computers. And look, we
couldn't travel. There are so many things that we couldn't
do that I know personally it was difficult. Kate and
I we were thinking about making some significant changes to

(08:59):
our lives, but we were recogniz eyes that you know what,
I don't think this is the best time to make
a major, significant disruptive change like this in our lives
while we are currently in the midst of something that
feels incredibly disruptive. Sometimes right in the middle of a
stressful situation, you will choose to do something that is
not in your long term best interest because you just
gotta get get out of that. Situations like the fight

(09:19):
or flight right and and interestingly enough, matt one survey
showed that three quarters of folks who changed jobs during
the pandemic have admitted feeling surprise or regret. And basically,
I think what they found out was maybe their new
employer overpromised and under delivered. That that was the case
for a lot of folks, where it certainly seemed like
they were jumping ship to two sun of your skies,

(09:40):
and in reality, the job, the work environment wasn't like
they wanted it to be, and so they're just not
as happy as they thought they were going to be
after moving on from their old employer. And then there
was this article published in the Wall Street Journal last
week about what they're calling boomerang hiring, and uh, it
turns out a lot of employees who left in a hurry,
they're finding themselves on happy in a new role with

(10:01):
another company, and so they're they're like asking for their
old jobs back. Many have only been in their new
role for three, four or five months and they're reinterviewing
with their old company. They're going back to an old
position or to a new position that's been created for
them at their old employer. And so it's just important.
All that stuff kind of goes in and it makes
me think that it's important to be quitting for the

(10:21):
right reasons. That is what's going to help minimize regret.
You don't want to, like you said, not be making
an emotional, knee jerk decision, because I think that's going
to have the most significant potential for a lot of regret. Yeah,
not only is it important to make sure that you're
quitting the right way, but that you're doing it for
the right reasons. Okay, so let's talk about what you
can do if you are thinking about quitting. If you

(10:42):
love your job but low pay is the main reason
for leaving, it's worth having that conversation before you know
you show up and slap down your two week notice.
Your manager or your boss might have a lot of
leeway to provide a meaningful pay increase right now, but
only if you ask them, And so quitting in order
to get paid more, it's it is a legitim reason
to move on. You know, if you can get paid

(11:03):
more with another company, leaving might be the right course
of action. But if you love your current employer and
you're realizing that, you know what, the only thing that's
really causing me to look elsewhere is the pay, then
give them a shot keeping you with a salary increase.
Don't leave without at least asking for for higher pay.
And the same thing can be true to not just
for for pay, but maybe it's just some different opportunities

(11:24):
that you're looking for, or maybe you're looking for a
different role within that company. Assuming that it's a great
company that that you enjoy working for, make sure that
you don't leave without having that conversation. It makes me
think of like, let's say you left your partner because
they put their toilet paper on the wrong side of
the role, like they were doing it incorrectly, and you
never even have the conversation. Yeah, it's like no, no, wait,
if they're perfectly every other way, have the conversation because

(11:47):
it's it's one of those things that can get worked out. Right,
you want to leave over something like that, well, that's
the thing to do with it. It's a big deal.
But you still don't want to leave over or something
like like. Again, as I think over the think through
the past two years, I do think that we have
stopped making for progres us in how well that we're
able to communicate with with other folks, especially in person,
because I mean, so many folks are working from home.
They are interacting with their bosses and their coworkers digitally,

(12:10):
and sometimes you do need that face to face. Yeah, agreed.
All right, Let's talk about flexibility too, because that's that's
another reason that folks might consider leaving their job. Work
from home is is obviously one of the things that
people want a whole lot of. And so if your
company has called you back into the office, but you've
gotten used to not coming into to not commuting. I
guess I get the distaste for being back in the

(12:30):
office full time. Like we talked about recently, there there
are some perks for going back into the office, especially
for folks who are earlier on in their careers and
for lots of jobs. It's it's just it's just so
much easier to advance in your career if you're around
your coworkers, if you're kind of immersed in the company culture,
and the psychological impacts of being seen at your job.

(12:51):
They're actually bigger than you think. I think sometimes people
think that they can progress at the same route in
their career, that the same at the same speed being
at home full time, And I just don't think that's
the case for most people in most companies. Well and
even just like individual well being, right, like I mean,
aside from progression and advancements in your career, just like
you said, like the ability to be seen what I see,

(13:11):
there is a more personal, sort of deeper human level
of understanding when when you're able to see somebody and
appreciate that you know the work that they're doing. When
you can appreciate them as a human being. That's something
that is also easier to be done in person than digitally. Yeah,
I think full time work from home has made a
ton of sense for a large chunk of this time
that we've had it because it has helped curb the
spread of a virus. But I do think as things

(13:33):
are getting back to normal, there are a lot of
plus sides to being back in the oppress for people.
And you know, maybe you just really do hate that
commute though, Like, if it's the case that you still
don't want to return to the office at all, then
be sure to talk with your manager or your boss
to see if there's some sort of middle ground that
you guys can hammer out. Just start the conversation, because
that's another thing where you don't want to quit without
having the convo. There's a chance that these rules aren't

(13:57):
hard and fast, that they're based on your specific, big
situation and the value you bring to the company, the
value you bring to the table that your employer is
willing to offer a workaround for the schedule that you
need to keep, And so these are conversations that are
worth approaching. It's not it's not worth leaving in a
huff just because the mandate from on high it isn't
conducive to the way you want a need to work.

(14:19):
That's right. So let's talk about networking here for a second,
because even if you're not looking to quit, having a
robust professional network is always important to do. A friend
of the show Jordan Harbinger, he calls this digging the
well before you're thirsty, and so you want to have
this contacts, You want to have those relationships in place
before you need them. Makes me think of the show alone.
We've talked about this here on the show before. It's

(14:40):
where they get dropped off and h it's really beautiful.
A lot of times it's it's remote, so you're just like,
oh wow, this is beautiful, this is amazing. And oftentimes
the weather is nice. But if you enjoy the scenery,
maybe a little too long you put off building a
solid shelter, you put off finding a way to uh
procure some food, then you are going to be too malnourished.
You're gonna be too cold to be able to build

(15:00):
it when you need to build that shelter. In a
similar way, having a robust network of friends in the
industry is massively important. And I'm not just talking about
folks who you think can do something for you in
the here and now. Looking to help others is also
an important piece of the networking puzzle. You never know
when that intern is going to become your boss, right well,
and don't only look to like the long term when
it might come full circle. But even just looking to

(15:21):
some of the different ways that you can assist somebody,
where you can help somebody advance in their career, is
just something good to do in and of itself. Yeah,
networking is. I think networking is a lot of fun,
just kind of getting to know other people. You're a
social dude, Yeah, yeah, I just enjoy it anyway. I
love meeting people of all sorts, of different backgrounds and interests.
But it can be potentially helpful to you in the future.

(15:42):
But more than anything, I just think of it as
a good time, as an enjoyable thing to do. Yeah,
and to be able to help other people is something
we need more of in the world. We need more
people not networking just to further their own careers, but
to really seek to make all of us better. Just
to not be a jerk. This is more than not
just being a jerk, like, okay, how can actually be
a kind and helping persons? Exactly? All right, Matt, We've

(16:03):
got more to get to you about quitting and doing
it the right way, and specifically, they are a bunch
of financial things you need to consider before you quit
your job, like how do you think about those benefits?
How do you ensure you get the most out of
them before you actually walk out the door. We'll talk
about that right after this. All right, we are back

(16:32):
from the brink. We're talking about quitting your job the
right way, and so it's obviously it's crucial to assess
why it is that you're quitting in order to make
sure that you're making a good decision. We talked about
that earlier on. As we said, moving on to a
new job that can lead to a massive salary bump,
which can make a big difference not only in month
to month but also over the years where you're able

(16:53):
to impact your ability to build wealth. But it's important
to have your personal finances in solid shape before where
you take a leap, and the most important part of
that equation having a robust emergency fund that gives you
uh the financial ability to whether a period of unemployment,
if you're quitting without knowing where you're going. So we're
talking about here, isn't gear one that two thousand phone

(17:15):
or sixty seven dollars of emergency fund, But you probably
want to have something a little more solid, something more
in that three to six months worth of expenses range.
And that's what's so interesting about this too, because depending
on your lifestyle, it's this is an incredibly customizable number.
It all depends on how it is that you live
your life. It all depends on the expenses that you
have coming out of your budget every single month. Yeah,

(17:36):
And one of the ways to make that money extend
a little bit further in your emergency fund is to
actually change your budget from the normal budget you use
every single month to what we call a bare bones budget.
And that's something we want you to kind of figure
out ahead of time, so that you can instantly cut
back if need be, uh, if you end up leaving
a job and you don't necessarily have a new one yet,

(17:57):
having a bare bones budget on hand can be really
helpful because it can help you stretch those dollars even further,
help you get more months out of your emergency fund
if need be. It makes me think about when your
computer when you started up and it's kind of crashing
or whatever, and it starts up in safe mode or
a recovery mode or something like that. It's like you,
you may not be able to do all the things
that you're able to do before, but it is going

(18:18):
to allow you to do the bare essentials. And that's
that's what we're looking for with the bare bones budget.
That's exactly what we want. That's exactly what we want
is we want people to have the safety the certainty
of knowing that they can dial back their expenses like shelter, food, Yeah,
clothing you you've already got that. You don't need to
buy new clothes, right, Yeah, you can cut those streaming
subscription services. There are all sorts of discretionary things that

(18:38):
you can take out of your budget to make sure
that your money is going to be there for things
like the shelter in the transportation, right that you're going
to need to keep on hand. Yeah, but we would
prefer for you to have a place to land figured
out before you quit your job. Of course, it's always
nice to keep the steady stream of paychecks coming in
but we realize that's not always possible. But not only

(18:59):
is it in and to consider your salary, but you
also need to look at the other other benefits that
you're leaving behind, Joel, like you alluded to, uh specifically,
one of the ones I'm thinking of is the f
s A, the flexible spending account. So this is money
that you've already stalked away, so make sure that you
spend it before it straight up evaporates and disappears. This
is one of those use it or lose it scenarios.

(19:20):
But the cool thing with f s a s is
that you can use the full amount that you've elected,
even if you haven't actually put all that money in yet,
So keep that in mind. But you can spend this
f s A money on things like sunglasses or sunscreen, uh,
like you talked about at the beginning, you want to
get sun overt to the beach, or just like over
the counter medications, these are all common ways to spend

(19:41):
down some of those dollars. Bottom line, you want to avoid.
Like as we're talking about about benefits, you want to
make sure that you're not leaving this essentially the stash
of money, the stash of benefits at your old employer
before you move on. Yeah, it's it's money that you
have a right to and you should. Even if you
have that forty seven bottles of ib often in in
the closet, it's used them good for like a decade.

(20:04):
That's right, that's right, and you can, you know, give
it away for Christmas presents this year if you want.
And so you know, one other benefit you're gonna want
to pay attention to before you pull the trigger and
leave your job is your four oh one K, and
especially if you have taken out a loan from your
four oh one K, because quitting is going to impact
you even more acutely. We're not big fans of taking
a loan out from your retirement account, although it does

(20:26):
make sense in some cases. But getting let go or
quitting is where that loan becomes a real problem. And
that's because if you don't pay that loan back in
a timely manner, usually forty five to sixty days, so
you gotta figure stuff out quick, you will be taxed
on the outstanding balance of that loan as income. And
in addition to that, you're gonna owe a ten percent
penalty if you're under the age of fifty nine and

(20:49):
a half and that can put you in a tough
position come tax time. So if you've got a four
o one k loan, it's it's crucial to figure out
how you can pay that back before you quit. It's
not just losing the ability uh the match from your
employer and the ability to contribute to your retirement accounts.
If you have a loan, this can lead to severe
financial consequences if you can't pay it back before you leave.

(21:11):
That's right, But the good thing about four one k
loans is that you're just paying yourself back. You're paying
yourself interest. But we're not going to dive into all
the four o one k loan nuances right now. In
the still, you know you're missing out on growth in
the market time in the market. Another benefit to keep
in mind is vacation days. You're gonna want to make
sure that you are able to take all of your
vacation or your personal days that you have accrued at

(21:34):
your employer over the years. You want to plan your
exit so that you don't waste this valuable benefit. Some
of those days could even be used during your new
job hunt or if you realize that you're not going
to be able to use them, try and see if
your employer will pay you for those unused days. Keep
in mind, though, all companies are different, so it is
important to know the policy. So, for instance, there might

(21:55):
be a cap on the number of days that they'll
actually pay for, But you want to know what these
policies are and then act accordingly. Yeah, and if you
have a timeline, if you're not like, man, I gotta
quit next week, if you're if you're saying I want
to quit six months from now, and I want to
be looking that that that time horizon gives you just
a better understanding of how to utilize these benefits. You
won't necessarily have to get forty seven bottles sorr profen
or or take all your vacation in a two week

(22:17):
span right before you leave. Like you can start to
space those things out, spread it all out, that's right,
Fridays off for the rest of the I mean, yeah,
that's kind of what I'm talking to my mom about
right now, because she's on the verge of retiring and
she's got all these vacation time built up and they'll
pay her for some. But I'm also like, why don't
you take some of those days now too, so because
because she's got that timeline and she knows playing into
the future when she wants to leave, that's going to

(22:38):
help her do it. Well, is she still thinking, well,
what if I get sick and she is she still
kind of wanting to the stockpile some of those pay
I think so a little bit. But there's also it's
also nice to know and not every employer does this,
like you said, Matt, that she will get paid for
some of those days when she leaves if she hasn't
used that. And so another benefit that people have to
think about besides vacation days and their four oh one

(22:58):
k is insurance, Like what are you gonna do for
health insurance? And if you're quitting and you don't have
another job lined up, this can become a problem. Is
a huge deal. Yeah, you want to make sure you've
got it figured out and then you're not flying by
the seat of your pants. Try you know, the Monday
after you're done with work trying to figure out how
am I gonna do this health insurance thing? Gonna be
popping that vitamin C staying healthy. But for all this

(23:21):
is a big deal that bankruptcy because of medical costs
are the number one reason for bankruptcy for individuals. That's right.
And and maybe you can go on your partner's insurance plan.
That'd be great. Maybe you can sign up for coverage
with the health sharing company. You know, we've gotten article
that we'll put in the show notes about that. Matt
and I both have health sharing plans for our families.
You could also look on the exchange, the Healthcare Exchange

(23:42):
to see what you qualify for. And the good news
is that you can sign up for a plan on
healthcare dot gov if you lost health insurance from your employer,
even if it's because you decided to quit. And so
rates are actually reasonable for a lot of folks thanks
to massiative federal subsidies. So this is one of the
things you have a few places that you can look,
where you can turn. But it's something you want to

(24:04):
have researched, and you want to know what you're gonna
do for health coverage before you leave. You don't don't
want to be left without coverage because that can put
you in a body exactly. Yeah, So it definitely don't
leave without health coverage and go skuide Ivan before you
figure that that's right. Well, as we're talking about insurance,
something you know this doesn't feel quiet as pressing, but

(24:25):
it's still important to have, and that is your own
life insurance policy. The reason is because what you likely
have for your work is that that is not enough,
and so it's time to get your own term policy
by shopping on the open market. Speaking of articles, we've
got another article that will link to in the show
notes that will explain to you everything you need to
know about signing up for your own policy. And by

(24:45):
the way, do not let the fear of what this
is going to cost you keep you from seeing what
life insurance is going to cost you, because it is
way more affordable than you think, especially if you're young
and you're healthy. This is something that that might cost
you in the range of like thirty bucks a month, yeah,
sometimes even less. Right, it could be closer to a
Netflix subscription. And and that is an important thing to mention, Matt,

(25:06):
because even folks who are listening who have a job
and they're like, I've got life insurance through my employer,
I don't need another policy, Well, actually that's not true.
You in all likelihood do because most employers offer you
something like one time's your salary uh in free life
insurance and that's not going to be enough for you.
And so you want to have your own policy in
addition to that. Let that be the cherry on top,

(25:26):
but you want to have your own policy that goes
with you wherever your job takes you, wherever you're working.
Um and you hear us read for different insurance as
one in particular that starts with policy, but we would
under present believe it. This is it really is important.
And if somebody is out there, someone in your family,
and they depend on your income, you need to have

(25:46):
a life insurance and talk about other places where you
get a life insurance policy to like if your costcome member,
that's a good place to check. At the same time,
so let's talk about transitioning to matt because it's important
to not leave those benefits behind completely when you decide
to quit, Like this is just another reason to not
peace out on some sort of emotional win you want
to have. You'll make that rational decision. That's right. You

(26:08):
want to have the j plans in place, and and
there's a lot of stuff you need to have figured
out first before you walk out the door, and that
just takes me back to having something else lined up
before you put in your notice. I mean, that's that's
the best course of action because maintaining your current job
it puts you in a stronger position as you're applying
for the roles. You know you don't have to jump
at the first offer that comes your way, because let's say, well,

(26:29):
I've been unemployed now for two and a half months.
I quit thinking it's gonna be so easy to find
the next thing. Sometimes even just onboarding to a new
employer takes a while. I'm talking with a friend across
the street and she is getting a new job, but
lining up all the details is proving to take more
time than she thought, and so herr she's still got
her job. She hasn't put in her notice yet, she's
still waiting until they have an official offer sign. Did

(26:52):
they ask her to mail a check to this uh,
to this address? Or actually did they send her a
check for all of her new equipment and uh? And
then they're like, oh, I'm sorry, we overpaid. Can you
send us a cho like that? No scams here with
this with this new role, you want to avoid that job, right,
But the really the best thing to do is to
keep your job until you have something else lined up,
and and sometimes having that other job offer can actually

(27:14):
result in something like a salary match from your carent employer,
giving you a big pay boots without even having to
leave if you don't want to. And of course another
benefit to keeping your job while you're looking is that
it helps you avoid a gap in your resume. It's
not the worst thing in the world, I think, especially
these days with COVID and stuff, employers don't seem to
care as much that maybe you took a couple of
months off is becoming a bit more acceptable. Yes, agreed,

(27:37):
but still it's one of those things that you can avoid.
And it's also just gonna mean consistency of income. Like
you're not losing any paycheck weeks as long as you're
waiting to quit your job until you've got a new
one in hand, that's right, man. It is a little
different though, if you're leaving your current job your current
employer for a side hustle that might be becoming a
little more self sustaining, you still want to leave on

(27:59):
good terms, of course, for instance, that side hustle that
might fizzle out and your old employer might be your
best bet for steady employment. Like we like we talked
about like that boomerang employment and you if you walked
out with two birds up in the air, they're not
gonna want you back. They're gonna be like, mmm, I'm sorry,
no place for you here. But it is important to
note that entrepreneurship it's a great reason to leave a job.

(28:20):
And this is exactly what more folks are doing these days.
They haven't been quitting in order to just sit on
the couch or to to live that hashtag van life.
For the most part, they're leaving to go out on
their own. And so if you're leaving to start your
own thing, more power to you. Just make sure that
you've got a proven business model, You've got money in
the bank before you leave that steady paycheck behind. Yeah

(28:41):
you you, I like what you said, a proven business model.
You want to make sure that your side hustle, it's
not just puyeing the guy Like I have projections in
the next six months, I'm going to be able to live, uh,
and to feed my family and to pay all my bills.
Based on the trajectory of the profit increases I'm seeing
you kind of want to get to that point before
you pull the trigger. And I know it can be
tough to to balance both things, your day job and

(29:04):
your side hustle for an extended period of time, but
I think it's worth it, and it's it's gonna allow
you to to quit with more financial security, right without
having to worry while you're making income from both ventures.
You can stock more money away to give you extra
breathing room when you do finally quit your job. I
think it's I think it's great advice. I think also
pursuing that side hustle and trying to strike it out

(29:25):
on your own is something is something we want to
encourage people to think about. We think there is a
whole lot to be said for starting your own business
and making that your main thing. Actually, we're gonna talking
about the next week on the show, aren't we. That's right.
So we have talked through some of the different tangible,
hard specifics to consider some of the numbers and how
you need to keep your salary in mind. But after
the break, we're gonna talk about some of the more relational,

(29:48):
some of the more social implications of quitting your job.
The right way, and we'll get to that right after this.
It's alright, Matt, we are back. We are still talking
about quitting your job, doing it the right way. We're
still talking. We're still enjoying our beer. We talking to

(30:09):
drink beer a lot. And one of the things actually
we'll get to in in this section of the show
is how you can maybe get paid to quit. That's interesting.
We'll talk about that in just a minute. But yeah,
we were just talking through salary and the specific benefits
that you want to consider before you quit. You want
to make sure you don't leave money on the table
or leave those vacation days on the table. And then
right before the break, we discussed how to bridge the

(30:30):
gap from one job to another and how to transition
well basically, so let's continue on that thread and talk
about giving your notice because you don't want to just
not show up for work one day. It's actually reminds
me of a job I had. I think one of
my favorite jobs of all time. Your favorite job was
working out the photo lab. This is a but yeah,
the Ecord Photo Lab was was my favorite favorite job ever.

(30:51):
And I worked there with my buddy Caleb, and he
actually quit in a really interesting way. He just left
a note under the photo scanner for the manager, came
in the next morning saying I'm never coming back, and
and so, yeah, quitting in that way isn't going to
endear you to anyone, and in fact, that's potentially the
worst way you can quit. I guess when you're when
you're eighteen years old, it's not as big of a deal.

(31:13):
It doesn't impact your career long term, probably doesn't matter
as much, although I would say I think like stealing
from the company, embezzling funds, that might be the worst. True.
By the way I stole all this money, good luck
tracing it because I've got Swiss bank account. It doesn't
have as much flair though, as as like the flight attendant,
you know, with the with the two peers. That's still
my favorite. But yeah, doing something like this, probably a

(31:35):
stunt like this can potentially haunt you for years. In
more of a career type environment, just not showing up,
not giving a reasonable notice, you're just showing a lack
of respect for your coworkers and for your bosses. Again,
so much of this is about not being a jerk,
and so when it comes to just giving a notice,
you know, it depends on your industry, or your employer,
or even the specific role that you play at the company.

(31:57):
While keeping all of those things in mind, you want
to give the appropri at length of time as a
heads up. Of course, two weeks. That's the standard length
of time that you'll read in any article. And I
know that you can't always do this when quitting, but
if you can actually offer more than two weeks, that
can actually reflect really well on you. Obviously, if you've
got a new position already lined up that you're transitioning to,
that might become a basic impossibility because they're like, hey,

(32:20):
you gotta start start on X day, and in that case,
you're gonna have to get out of there, maybe sooner
than later. But those are the kind of gestures that
go a really long way in keeping that network intact.
We you know, we touched on this. We kind of
keep coming back to relationships because it's such an important
part of your career of working. For instance, it makes
me think about helping to finish an important report, or

(32:41):
like spending a week or even two weeks training your replacement.
These are the kind of things that will be remembered
because you never know, like when that boss or when
that coworker might reach back out with an even better
offer in the future. But that only is going to
happen if you do a good job departing. Yeah, I
completely agree, and and stay in touch even with four
or coworkers or former bosses, those can provide excellent opportunities

(33:04):
for you in the future too. Instead of treating those
people merely as colleagues, treating them as friends who you
stay in touch with can be helpful from a career perspective.
And man, it just makes me think, Actually, I've got
had multiple opportunities recently from old coworkers just because I
stayed in touch and just because we remain friendly. Even
just an old coworker who said, hey, do you need
some baby clothes for your two and a half year old?

(33:26):
My boys four now, and like I'll drop them off
on your porch. It's just even little stuff like that,
Like that's a minor thing, that's small in the grand
scheme of things. But maintaining those relationships, you never know
where it's going to take you or what sort of
opportunity might come your way because you're not only left
on good terms, but you've remained friendly with those folks
and you stay in touch. So it's one of those things. Yeah,

(33:46):
like Jordan Harbinger says, like dig the well before you're thirsty,
will maintain those friendships even without expecting anything in return,
but just knowing that it's the right thing to do,
and who knows what the result of that could be.
That's true, dude. It also makes me think how it
might be more difficult for introverts to maintain this when
relationships might be more taxing on them and like in

(34:07):
your energy. And so I guess what I'm saying is,
if you're listening to this and you're thinking, yeah, easy
for you to say Joel that, oh yeah, I'm gonna
keep in touch with twenty five different people who I'm
not gonna see anytimes, it is easier for me to
say how it is. But but that being said, it's
doesn't mean it's not any less important if you're listening
and you're an introvert. And so I think there are
ways that you can approach this, maybe more systematically, even

(34:27):
if it's just a calendar reminder or something where that
reminds you to go back and just shoot a quick message,
whether it be a text or an email to touch
base with folks. I think that can be a way
that you can keep in touch with some of these
folks without it filling up your calendar and feeling like,
you know, you have no time to yourself if you're
an introvert. And so, as we're talking about communication in
particular with your employeer, hopefully your company has a policy

(34:48):
in place where they solicit your feedback once you've decided
to move on. And so it makes me think like
there are there are two paths that you can take
when it comes to leaving a previous employer. You can also,
on one hand, you can slam the door. You can
stom out of there and a huff calling out everything
wrong with a company with the leadership, with your direct supervisors,
drinking two beers. You can even talk smack about Toby

(35:11):
in ah hr Uh's the worst. Or you could potentially
take the like more of the apathetic route right where
you fail to address any of the issues that the
company might be facing. You're being nice, but you avoid
any difficult conversations. We don't like either one of those routes.
We think that honesty is it truly is the best policy.
But there's also a way to be honest without pissing

(35:33):
people off, right, Like without being a jerk. So much
of this discussion today is about just not being a jerk.
And so keep in mind that you're on his feedback
that it could actually help your former employer as you
head for the exit. But you know, remember that there's
a kind way to give that honest feedback. Yes, and
that is a skill that's important to learn, right, It's
that emotional intelligence, I guess is what that's called. Just

(35:55):
avoid any statement that says you always do that. That
should should be a red flag that what you're saying
may not be true, you know, and avoid that in
your personal relationships to and you're with your partner. Sorts
of advice, how the money today? Right? And yeah, continuing
on the networking theme. Now, we've given a lot of
advice in this episode, but I don't think there's any

(36:16):
anything more important than maybe this one phrase, which is
to not burn bridges. Yeah, that's basically what we're saying.
But right now, I feel like it's so common to
actually take the opposite attack. There are so many I
quit on social media videos. It's a terrible trend that
I talk seeing. We talked about quit talk. Yeah, people like,
here's why I quit. It's the worst. And they're throwing
people under the bus on their way out the door.

(36:37):
And you know, we started off by talking about networking,
how important it is and how it can't be overstated.
And you know, they say, it's not what you know,
it's who you know. But I don't even think it's that.
I don't even think it's who you know. I think
it's who you have a good relationship with. Right And
according to HubSpot, eighty five percent of jobs are found
through networking. And then CNBC actually reports that seventy percent
of jobs never even get posted to some sort of

(36:59):
job site, and and that means that they don't necessarily
go This job isn't going to the best candidate out there.
There aren't even multiple candidates in many of these scenarios.
This job that was created for a specific person because
of their abilities and because of their connections, and so
that's just so important. These numbers reflect the truth that
your career is as powerful as your network is and

(37:20):
and how well maintained that network is. And you might
find a job that's not even posted purely because of
the people you know and who you have good friendships
with and so when it comes to networking, like you've
got to get to know I would say, a wide
variety of other folks in your industry and build close
relationships with the people that you work in close contact
with if you want to shot at bigger opportunities in

(37:40):
the future. It's like a personal marketing plan. Basically, it's
like outreach to those around you. Not only are you
focusing on like the work that you're doing, but you're talking,
You're you're kind of looking at the marketing. You're looking
at the pr is the is your personal advertising to
a certain expense, right, And sometimes you think, well, I'm
gonna let my work speak for itself, And well, I
get that sentiment. If I just you know, put my
nose to the grindstone, if I put out excellent, excellent work,

(38:02):
people will notice it and I will go far. There's
some truth to that, but you're missing a wider spectrum
of what is also truth, and that is that the
people that you know and the people you maintain good
relationships with will want to work with you, will want
to suggest you for future opportunities to other people that
you don't even know, in large part because of the
relationship they have with you, not just based on the

(38:25):
work that you do. That's right, Let's let's talk about
geting paid to quit. This is one other thing that's
important to mention when it comes to quitting your job.
And this might sound weird, but you know, can you
engineer your own layoff? The great thing about getting laid
off here is that there are often meaningful perks involved. Uh. Namely,
what we're talking about here is severance pay Sam Dogan,
who writes that Financial Samurai. He has written in depth

(38:46):
about this topic. But there's often a way to create
what's considered like a win win situation when you have
to leave your employer. Sam says that people quit because
they're too scared to negotiate. And I'm not totally sure
if I agree with that, because it doesn't necessarily make
sense in every situation. But if you can tell that
your company is looking to downsize, or that by cutting

(39:08):
payroll that that would make your boss look good, don't
just quit. This is a way that you can negotiate
an exit that helps you both out. And it makes
me think of a friend of our, jeninal Uh. And
she was working for Delta for years and years and back,
you know, things weren't looking so great for the airline
that I don't remember. And by the end of Delta
was able to get over eighteen thousand employees to voluntarily

(39:32):
retire early, essentially with early retirement packages with buy backs. Uh.
And so I think from an employee standpoint, you think, oh,
holy cow, I feel like I'm totally taking advantage of them.
This almost seems too good to be true. I think
in her pace, in her case, she was getting paid
close to a year in order to to leave the company.
But when you look at it from the point of
view of the employer, this was a smart move for them.

(39:53):
This was a way for them to stay solid, for
them to not file bankruptcy. And so in that case,
this truly was a win win scenario. So keep that
in mind if you are in a situation like this
where your company might be experiencing some issues like if
you offer to pay me for a year to leave,
I will be devastated because how the money is my life? Matthew,
don't do it, okay, but I just that's that's obviously
not gonna happen. But I did actually negotiate a severance package.

(40:16):
Matt on my way out of the radio station a
couple of years ago, and it was one of those
things where, similarly to what you were saying, it was
an industry in decline and they were letting people go,
and so I volunteered myself. I volunteers tribute I do
if if it saves somebody else, and you're gonna pay
me to leave, like, I'm more than happy to do it.
And so that's how it went down. It was one
of those things where it was the term you use

(40:39):
was engineering your own layoff, and that's exactly exactly what
I did. And and of course it was beneficial to
me as I was making the transition here, but I
think it was beneficial to other people at the radio
station to It really was one of those win win scenarios.
Maybe think about this as you're talking about how how
the money is your life. Work is great, but it
is not the end all the all whoa who had

(41:00):
the money is the end? I'll be all. I feel
like we take a very healthy, uh nuanced approach when
it comes to how it is that we view work.
But over work like that is a real thing and
it's not good. It's happening more often we talked about
Scott Kay's a couple weeks ago about the lack of
vacations that folks are taking that is not good. It
makes me think of a piece that Derrick Thompson wrote

(41:21):
over in The Atlantic a few years ago. He talks
about how work is morphing into something that looks more
like religious identity for for most folks, as opposed to
just a job. And the problem is that work, it
can't satisfy all of our human longings, but it does
feel like that we're expecting it to these days, right, Uh.
And So, like, I think one of the answers is
perhaps to be a little more introspective, like takes some

(41:43):
time and to think about why what it is, what
it is that you get from your work, why it
is that you're doing the things that you do. And
I do think that a lot of folks did that
over the past couple of years. I think that's what's
led to the great resignation to the priorities exactly. There's
been this sea change that we've seen within many people's careers. Uh.
And oftentimes that does lead to a new job. But

(42:03):
what we don't want to see you do is to
is to see a new job as just as a distraction.
We don't want it to be this knee jerk reaction
because in that case, you're not actually getting down to
the root of the problem. You're just reflexively reacting to things,
as opposed to being more introspective, really thinking about what
it is that you're trying to to seek after. Because
if you just hot from one job to the next,

(42:25):
like essentially you're just going to hop from your old
crappy job to a new crappy job, exactly if you
will eventually become your old crappy job yet again, yes,
if you're not giving it enough thought, and then at
some point too, by the third or fourth time you
do that, it makes you less desirable on the job market.
If you're quitting jobs every five, six, eight, nine months,
and you're doing it consistently in order to score more
pay or something like that, and then you want to

(42:46):
eventually get the job of your dreams, well, they might
not be interested in hiring you if you've moved on
too frequently, if you haven't shown any commitment to the
employers where where you work, And so I think that's
an important thing to note too. So really, when it
comes down to it, quit well, don't leave money or
benefits on the table. Those are important things to do
if you're planning on quitting, plan ahead, and it don't

(43:07):
be a jerk in the whole process. Matt That's what
you've said many times, and I think you're You're spot on.
There is a way to quit poorly and publicize it
all over the internet. There's a way to quit well
and to do it with honor in a way that
actually ends up boosting your career in the future. Do
it with honor. That sounds like something of Samurai would say. Right, honor, integrity,

(43:27):
doing it the right way, treating people right on your
way out, and and not throwing people on under the
bus when you do. Just don't commit, Harry Carey and
follow your own sword. Right. All right, Let's shift gears
and get back to the beer that you and I
enjoyed during this episode. This was Bumble Stick by Bermari Brewing.
This is a brewery up in Asheville, North Carolina. We've
had a few of their beers before. But what were
your thoughts on this nut brown ale with toasted cinnamon, Matthew, Yeah,

(43:51):
so I would say it was heavy on the cinnamon.
Maybe maybe even a bit too heavy, but I think
it was. It had a lot almost maybe sneeze maybe
one you're gonna but I did sneeze. I did that
triple sneeze in the middle of the other. We we
cut that out. You wouldn't You wouldn't hear that, right,
See if you can listen back and figure out what
it is that I came back in with the fresh sneeze. Boys, nobody,

(44:11):
nobody wants to hear that sneezy there years nobody wants that.
But I I really like Brimri beers. I think they
make some good stuff. This one was not my favorite
because I thought it was a little too cinnamon heavy,
and I really like cinnamon actually, but I like a
good nut brown nail. It's one of those things. It's
it's kind of a beer style that not many folks
are producing, and I thought this was a decent take

(44:32):
on a beer variety that not enough people pay attention to. Yeah,
the only other drink of that UH infrequently enjoy is
horg Chatta, and it kind of reminds me of horchatas,
you know, like where you're tasting that cinnamon with within
a drink. Or maybe honestly, it kind of takes me
back to so similar to horchata. I guess makes me
think of slurping down the milk after you finish eating
the cinnamon toast crunch. Yeah you know what I saw

(44:54):
the other day on the aisle in the grocer. I
do not they have cinnamon toastcrunts in this by style
like you get the flavor, yes, next to the pepper
and stuff. Man, it's crazy. So basically cinnamon and sugar. Yes,
so silly people just need to buy cinnamon and sugar.
But whatever your own self. Nostalgia is a powerful drug,

(45:19):
that's for sure. But I wanted to recommend just brown
ales in general. If you're out there and you're thinking, man,
what are these guys talking about with all their different
craft beers. I think brown ales are a great introduction
into the craft beer world because they're very easy to drink,
and specifically, if you find yourself enjoying coffee, maybe you
like one sugar and a little bit of cream, really
easy to drink. That's how I think about brown ailes.

(45:41):
They're not overly dark and espresso like in the way
that you would find like a Russian Imperial stout, but
they're also not overly kind of bitter and tanniny when
it comes to like some of the different West Coast
I p A s and all the different flavors that
they introduced. It's just a very approachable beer. Can I
say the most classic nut brown ale that out there
is probably the Rogue sael nut brown, and that's probably

(46:01):
available in almost every stag. I was going to say
the most classic brown and will generally speaking is new
just Newcastle, Newcastle. That's I don't know if i'd consider
that a craft beer. No, it's it's pretty large. Yeah,
it's it's decent. But if you want something like good,
a little more refined, but still like really really accessible,
that that Rogue hazel nut brown is a great true
and why we haven't really had any rogues should we?

(46:22):
I don't know, we need we need to remedy that
here in a few weeks. Let's throw it out a
bunch of rogues. But this beer you can find a
picture of it on our website at how the money
dot com within our show notes for this episode, and
we will make sure to link to any of the
different resources that we mentioned as well. Yeah, by the way,
if you've been listening for a little while and you
have not yet left or review for this show. We
would appreciate it if you would do that really quickly.

(46:44):
If you listen on Apple Podcasts, you can leave a
quick rating and review that helps other people find out
more about the show. Same on Spotify that's where you listen.
That's just a rating and that takes lesson too easy. Yeah,
you can definitely do that first. Thank you in advance
for your help with that, and Joe will write you
a handwritten out For everyone who does I personalized. I
will send you the cinnamon toast crunch spice in the

(47:06):
mail for your contributions, the whole thing. But you can
sprinkle some on the letter. The letter I can't sprayed
with perfume. I open it and starts sneezing immediately. Who
wrote this? A seven year old? All right, that's gonna
do it for this episode. Until next time. Best Friends Out,
Best Friends Out.