Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're discussing strategic debt use to catapult your finances. Yeah.
(00:26):
Not only are we're gonna teach you how to catapult
your money, We're gonna teach you how to what it
is the tribute shay, is that the like the super
you're talking about. You don't know what I'm talking about.
That's that's just a fancy French word for catapult. No,
it's literally a device. It's like a catapult, but it's
fancier in the sense that it is more, it's stronger,
like you can catapult heavier objects with I think it's tribute.
(00:47):
Sche that's how you say it, Okay, but it is.
All tributes are a type of catapult, but not all
catapults are advanced enough to be called tribute. And actually,
as we are going, as I'm using this metaphor, we
don't want you to tribute s your your money. You
don't want to overdo it. And so that's what we're
gonna talk about today. We are going to discuss the
(01:08):
different ways that you can use debt in a strategic
way to catapult your finances into a better place when
you think about it. If you have you ever seen
those videos of people catapult things like giant pumpkins and
stuff like that, think about how difficult are those are,
Tribute says, I've seen those videos. I know what you're
talking about. Together, they're like launching them across the field.
Think about trying to carry one of those pumpkins or
your arm exactly, and it's gonna be a long, hard
(01:30):
slog exactly. And what we're saying is that there are
ways that you can use certain devices, certain tools to
get you there in a more efficient manner, you know,
but it also comes at a cost. We're gonna talk
about some of those costs today. If you're like, wait
a second, Matt and Joe, they've gone off the deep end.
They're gonna talk about how great debt is, and there
there is an element of that to this episode. But
as always, we're gonna try to be balanced at because
(01:53):
that's what we do. We're gonna take the extreme middle position,
which oftentimes it is the extreme position I know, which
just don't come down on the fence where they're willing
to engage in conversation and talk about the nuances of
the topic. And it's just not that's what we love
to do. It's not as sexy in our current modern
era where people want the hot takes, the shock chock,
and that's that's not what we do. That's not we're about.
(02:14):
So So if you want to come here for kind
of the well balanced way to think about tet, that's
what this episode is better in the right place. But
before we get to that, Matt I wanted to mention
that Emily, my wife, she just had fraudulent charge on
her credit card and yeah, for an airplane ticket on Delta.
Somebody was trying to I like it. Yeah, it's not fun.
(02:36):
Is that one of the things you gotta clean up?
You gotta report to the credit card company right away. Yeah.
I like it from the standpoint of, oh, somebody wants
to go somewhere, but oh, you are a criminal and
you're using somebody else's credit card to do it. Well,
And started start to hear that just recently I lost
some pain. Yeah, I lost a credit card at a
water park with my kids. You didn't, Yeah, just like
slipped out of my pocket. I was like, dang it.
So I had to cancel that, had to get a
(02:57):
new one. Have to change all the credit card I
have to change all the is automatic paintings I have
set up. So it wasn't very annoying. It wasn't that card.
It's a defferent card. So um. But just just I
want to say this is I think it was like
that this airline ticket cost someone's going to New York
and they got the fancy seat in front of the
plan I guess, or something like that. But the great
thing about using credit cards instead of debit cards is
(03:17):
that she is not out this money trying to call
it back. It's money that has never left her account,
and by federal law, the credit card company has to
refund this money to to us, which is great. So
I know we we talk a lot about credit cards
on the show and smart usage of credit cards, but
case in point, it's just one of those reasons where
you go that makes them great. But to offer and
(03:38):
then again account we try to stay balanced here, right,
we to offer another side to that. Have you have
you ever gotten those those checks from a credit card
company in the mail, like the like cash advanced checks.
Basically here's six checks go using for whatever you want.
And when you look at the terms, like wait a second,
this is gonna cost a lot of money. Yeah, it's
gonna cost a lot of So there are some credit
cards who will also send you a check for a
(03:58):
certain amount of money. Have you seen this? Uh? So
literally some banks out there. And so we're again, like
you said, Joll, we're taking a very balanced approach here.
Credit cards are great in some ways, but this is
a way that some of the banks out there are terrible.
They are basically writing a check to people and it's like, hey,
this is a check for you, but it's a check
against your own account and so you like against your
your your credit limit and guess what the interest rates
(04:20):
on those tend to be probably something close exactly. Uh.
And so that's something that we also want to make
sure folks are avoiding. Don't be tempted into thinking, oh, yeah,
this is a check I can use if it's a
blank check, Oh this is a check I can use
to to pay for something, maybe even pay off another
credit card. That's kind of a bad strategy if you
haven't addressed the underlying cause. But also avoid seeing a
check where there's already a check and there's a dollar
(04:42):
amount written out to you. The surround referring to it
was for going back to school expenses. And it's pretty
smart because folks were thinking good marketing. I am having
to fork out a lot of money on just all
the costs associated with sending my kid off to college,
got it. You know, he wanted to get a new laptop,
So that's something we did, just all of a mini fridge,
although you can get those for cheap these days evidently,
(05:03):
and laptops two honestly. Yeah, And so all that to say,
we want you to use credit cards in a judicious
type of way and avoid this checks altogether exactly. So
so hopefully, yeah, this the way we just talked about
credit cards, we can be that nuanced with kind of
the overall subject of debt on today's episode, Matt. But
before we get that, let's just mention the beer word drinking.
We always drink a beer on every episode of How
(05:25):
the Money Are most episodes because we light craft here
something Matt and I explore John while we're being intentional
with our money, while we're saving and investing for the future.
This one is called Milk and Cookies and it's by
Wicked Weed. It's a it's a stout. We'll give our
thoughts on this at the end of the episode. This
is another beer that's a part of that Guilty Pleasures
series from Wicked Weed, And I will say this one
already smells better than the one we had on Monday. Yes,
(05:47):
so so looking forward to this one. I agreed, all right, Well,
we'll give our thoughts later on in the show, but
let's move on. My lest talk about using debt to
catapulture finances forward in a helpful way. And it just
made me kind of think about when we're trying to
use something in a helpful way that can also be
used poorly. Maybe think of napping, because some folks will
swear that napping is bad for them, right, or it's
(06:08):
bad for everyone, that it ruins your day, that's gonna
upset your sleep for that evening, it's gonna maybe throw
off your circadian rhythm whatever whatever that actually means. But yeah, occasionally, right,
how often do you? Not? Like four times a year?
Not very often? Yeah, I feel like I'm like one
or two. I tend to dude, I hate nothing because
I love to lay down in the evening and just
fall right to sleep, you know, Like I hate laying
(06:29):
there and thinking, dang it. Maybe I had my coffee
a little bit too late. Dang it, I should Maybe
I shouldn't have taken that nap. I kind of almost
need to be on my deathbed, like if i'm oftentimes
it is getting over a sickness or something like I'm like, okay, exactly,
I will nap. Then well, yeah, I'm not much of
a napper either, Like every once in a while on
a Sunday afternoon, that's the best time. Four times a year,
(06:50):
You're liken't like you three nap exactly exactly. I don't know.
My mind is just kind of going during the day
and and even though even though I might feel tired,
my brain won't shut down. But then yeah, like you said,
I've got no problem going to bed at nighttime. But
the reality is based on kind of all the all
the studies out there. Uh, A well timed nap can
bring a lot of benefits for a lot of folks.
(07:12):
And even though you and I don't necessarily participate, I
don't know. As I'm reading through this evidence, I'm like,
maybe I should nap more offending against there's a lot
of smart, smart folks, a lot of good thinkers out
there who always include like a little power nap in
the afternoon. Yeah, Well, there's more employers, right, thoughtful employers
who are creating nap rooms and stuff like that for
employees that they pardon largely because it's going to that
little bit of rest is gonna make you more productive,
(07:33):
like the experts say, can boost your memory, increase your
job performance, and ease stress levels. So, I don't know,
it's kind of like, wait our naps magic. We should
be doing this more often? Maybe maybe so maybe I
should increase the number of naps. But I think in
the ways that naps or misunderstood, so is debt, because
if you were to indiscriminately use naps or debt is
going to create a mess in your life. Right if
(07:54):
you're napping during an important meeting with your boss, or
maybe you're like, I'm just gonna like those off here
for thirty minutes to family dinner. That's gonna like really
ruin your life in a lot of ways. Uh. And
in the same is true with that if you're just
indiscriminately using debt for whatever you want, whenever you want it.
But how and when you use those two things and
then doing so with moderation and wisdom can make them
(08:15):
both I think beneficial parts of your life totally. Yeah, Basically,
what we're saying here, what we're arguing is that debt
is not as black or white an issue as many
folks would have you believe. So, for instance, if you
listen to to Dave Ramsey for any amount of time,
can you explain to you that, as Matt never heard
of him, you you probably didn't hear much nuance on
this topic. If you took out debt for any reason,
(08:36):
you were a dunce. Uh. And you know, he's not
the only one out there who has basically nothing positive
to say about debt. There are some folks out there who,
you know, they teach that all debt is bad, that
you should avoid it like the plague. But then you know,
like on the other side of the spectrum, there are
others who are just too comfortable with the amount of
debt in their lives. Going back to naps, that they're
(08:57):
the kind of person who who loves to take two
hour naps just completely ruin their day. Yeah. Yeah, so
debt to them, it's no big deal. But like most
things in life, debt is an incredibly nuanced topic and
we're gonna venture into it today because the reality is
that not all debt is created equal. That's what we're
going to discuss. Yeah, if you do think that are
all created equal, if you think that all that is
(09:19):
bad or that most debt is good, you're in all
likelihood going to make mistakes when it comes to how
you use it. And the reality is that debt is
actually kind of a nifty invention. Without it, a lot
of sand would be thrown in the gears of the
economy because taking on debt allows us to do things
like get a higher education before we actually have any
meaningful income, to show that we can pay off those loans.
(09:40):
There's a reason, right the people are willing to lend
you fifty dollars for a higher education, even though you
have shown that you have zero responsibility at this point
in your life. Debt can allow us to buy a
house right once we do have an income, without having
to save up for a decade or to in order
(10:01):
to fully purchase that house with cash. Because and Matt
how the money listeners, they know how hard it is
just to save up a down payment. I mean, imagine
being forced to save up the full purchase price of
that house. You know, most of us would be living
intents that would be the reality if with our parents, right, Yeah,
who also might be living intense Like, the truth is
most people can't afford to buy a house in cash,
(10:24):
and and so debt is kind of this necessity in
order to achieve many of the goals that we have
in life. And I think a home and a college
degree are maybe the two best uses of taking on debt.
And uh, the ideal logs who might say that all
debt is dumb, they're just not grounded in reality. We'd
say that these forms of debt are actually they're kind
of a societal good and they've they've actually allowed us
(10:47):
to make more progress because we don't have to pull
the pay the full freight in one fell swoop when
we're unable to. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If if you take
any form of debt that exists and then just completely
isolated from reality, then it's gonna be hard to argue
that debt is a good thing, right because debt it
means that you're paying interest to someone, to a bank,
paying interest is bad, so therefore debt is bad. But
(11:09):
taking this view is failing to see the forest for
the trees. Uh, the individual debts that we're discussing here,
those are the trees, but you know, like what is
going on with the entire forest, Like that is the
view that we want you to have. It's important just
just to take a more holistic approach to your finances. Uh.
And so that's why what it is that you do
(11:29):
with the money that you that you could have paid
to avoid that debt is so incredibly important. So for
for instance, let's say that you've taken out alone with
a bank. They were willing to lend you money at
a rate of one percent, but then they are definitely
because yeah, yeah that's not that's not alone you can
get today. But but let's imagine that they are willing
to pay you two percent on money that you've got
(11:50):
in a savings account. And let's also assume that there's
no funny terms. You know, there's no like prepayment penalty
or anything like that. It would be silly to take
on that debt, right, and so like this is a
kind of a silly example as well. But I just
want to give this to highlight the fact that you
have to look at the whole picture. You have to
be aware not only of a specific debt and the
(12:12):
interest that you're paying there. But what else you can
do with that money. You have to pay attention to
what you could potentially apply that money for you to
take on some of this what we're calling strategic debt. Yeah,
the example you just gave is kind of like a
no dust slam dunk. Of course, I'm gonna take on
this debt and just pop that money in and and
just make make money on the spread. Right, That's that's arbitrage. Sure, right,
(12:32):
you're using debt in order to make more money because
of it, And that's kind of that. That is what
we would say, it would be a strategic use of debt.
But simultaneously, it's not going to be that easy. It's
it's it's not that that easy, but it's not that
much of a slam dunk. And so that's kind of
what we're gonna spend the rest of the episode talking.
That's a simple example, but the reality is it's extreme
outlier example that you are not going to find in
(12:54):
reality exactly. So we will cover a bunch of specific
examples like that that can help you make maybe better
decisions based on something you're actually more likely to experience
in your life as supposed to this fictional example made
up giving out one. All right, that sounds nice, But
of course though, just because debt exists as a lever
for you to be able to get what you want
(13:16):
before you have the money, well that doesn't mean that
you should just need you be using it for that purpose.
And the sad reality is that a lot of folks
used debt as a crutch, particularly in our society. Right
instead of thinking up a creative solution, we buy something
to fix a problem, and then we often the thing
that we we bought will have to pay off over
(13:36):
time by taking on debt, which means paying interest to
to a bank or to a lender. And it makes
me think mad about our episode with Alan donnegan when
he talked about starting a business for zero dollars and
trying to do that, trying to start a business with
no money. It takes some real creativity and I love
that that's what he was pushing people to do. You know,
it's it's easy to create a big list of necessities
(13:56):
and then take out a big loan to purchase those things.
That's less creative, but it also leads to more debt,
and we chalk it up to just like that's how
business is done, right, uh. We you you obviously have
to take on loads of debt to start a business,
and then you work towards profitability. Well, what Alan was
suggesting was getting more creative on the front end, so
you can be free of debt as you're building your business.
And yeah, it's not that debt can't be helpful to
(14:19):
finance some businesses, and it's not, and then it's not
necessary in order to get some businesses off the ground.
And that would actually be potentially a strategic form of debt, right,
if you're taking on debt in order to build something
that is going to create income to help feed your family.
Depending on the specific terms, that could be a really
smart use of debt. But still, we're just saying, even
even if it's a good use of debt, it can
(14:40):
be used improperly. It can be used as a crutch exactly. Yeah,
that's so you know, basically, what we're saying here is
that there is a difference between what we're calling strategic
and non strategic debt. That's basically at the heart of
our conversation today. And we'd say that non strategic debt
that that should be avoided at all costs, unless maybe
like you're in some sort of like life circumstance said
(15:01):
give me your credit card. I'm gonna put ten thousand
dollars on it, and then I won't to kill you.
Otherwise I'll use no strategic debt to not die. So
it's worth defining it as well, right, and so non
strategic debt it's just basically, well, we're we are referring
to all the different easy types of consumer debt that
we have access to, the worst forms of us are
going to be paid a loans, title loans as well,
(15:21):
but then the like the more socially acceptable varieties are
going to be credit cards, uh, personal loans as well.
And we want you to avoid this type of debt,
this non strategic debt, because it allows us to consume
more stuff. Now, uh, we're we're just allowing our future
selves to pay the bill. I don't have to worry
about that today, Matt doesn't have to worry about that. That
That that's a problem for tomorrow. Map stress future Matt
(15:42):
out in order to alleviate that stress on myself today.
And that's an entire sign. Have we talked about this
on the show before the Seinfeld skit. There's there's future Jerry,
like it's about him going to bed early, and he's
just like, you know, I forget what he calls Like
today Jerry wants to stay up late and and watch TV,
but I've got to get up early to go to work. Oh,
that's future Jerry's problem. I don't have to worry about
(16:04):
that right now. That's yeah, I mean, that's that's a
good way of thinking about debt. But this is terrible
because it makes our purchases a lot more expensive. It
impacts our ability to become financially free. That's why we're
discussing that today. So actually, after the break, we're gonna
walk you through some questions that you can ask yourself
to help you to determine whether or not some of
this debt that you might have in your life is
(16:24):
strategic or if it is dumb non strategic debt. And
it actually it's not as clear cut, it's not as
simple as you might think. I can promise you that,
and so we will get to all of that plus
more right after this. Alright, let's keep going, let's keep
(16:46):
talking about debt. Let's do it demystify a little bit
because when you when you think that all debt is
we shouldn't name the demystifying demystifying debt debt well there,
because there's the reality that a lot of people, based
on maybe some of the loudest voices out there talking
about debt, that they think that every every single instance
you might potentially take on debt, that it's going to
(17:08):
harm you, that it's going to be bad for your
personal finances. And we would say no, a nuanced approach
to debt, using it strategically could actually catapult you in
the right direction. But there's a lot to be said
about that. And let's just expound for just a second
um about non strategic debt, which you kind of talked
about just a little bit before the break. And there's
this like cool story of Frederick Smith, who's the CEO
(17:30):
of FedEx. I believe, I believe he just announced that
he's gonna step down, So I don't know if he's
already done that or not, but he's been the CEO
of FedEx for decades and decades, and in the very
early days of the company, he he actually went to
Vegas and took out a five thousand dollar line of
credit and he won seven dollars gambling in order to
cover a giant fuel bill twenty four thousand dollar fuel
(17:52):
bill that FedEx had, And if he had not done that,
he literally like they had no money to pay the
fuel bill and the company was going to crumble, as
the story goes, if he had not gone to extreme measures,
So basically like, if he had not taken the most
dire tactic of taking on debt in order to gamble,
which is something we don't suggest anybody out there, normal
people do, his company would have gone by the wayside.
(18:14):
So I guess maybe there's the super occasional circumstance where
taking on non strategic debt can be the only the
course of last resort, right, and it might make sense
in the most extreme circumstances, But gambling to save your
company is it's typically a reckless decision. Taking Taking on
debt in order to gamble in general would be a
bad idea, and and there are just other options, but
(18:36):
I guess not in that one based on how the
story goes. Well, the same is true when it comes
to the worst forms of consumer debt. Right. If you
if you start getting comfortable with running headlong into debt.
When you get in a pinch, if that's kind of
your go to method, when it becomes your lifeline, it's
it's a bad habit that's hard to break, and it's
gonna hamstring your ability to grow wealth in a meaningful way.
And by the way, I thought this was interesting that
(18:57):
that the CEO of fed X he's never gambled since,
so it's not like he was like, yeah, this is
just kind of fun to do for kicks, and like
I I go to Vegas once a year, anyway to
hear that at least it was because I'm has like
it was a one time thing. He was like, this,
this seems like the only way that we share this
story because this is a success story of using nor
of literally gambling. Like I would say that many more failures. Yeah,
(19:19):
I would say that it's always reckless because you don't
know if you're going to come out on top, right,
I mean it's literally the name of the game gambling.
Like there's uh a far like more likely chance that
you're gonna lose it all. But that's what he would
have said, is I'm on track to lose it all. Yeah,
because if I don't take this this small risk. The
bigger risk is that my whole company folds. Yeah, FedEx,
(19:39):
isn't this success story that it is to that exactly.
I mean, it's like just before the break, we're talking
about using non strategic debt. I guess in that way
you're you are using it in a strategic way at
that point, because, like we were talking about how you
should consider it maybe only if you are in a
life threatening situation. And it's not that his physical life
was being threatened, but the life of that particular company
definitely was. But this is an instance where you know,
(20:00):
getting comfortable with debt can like it can sort of
be like that first sip of alcohol for somebody who
has struggled with alcoholism in the past. You know this
maybe this is somebody who's been sober for a bunch
of years. It might seem harmless. Uh. And depending on
who you are, it could be completely harmless. But for
somebody else it could lead them, you know, it could
send them spiraling downwards. Uh. And that's why we are
(20:22):
so adamant about the need to build up some savings,
to have some cash on hand. Uh. Starting with a
bare minimum of having a basic emergency fund in the bank,
two thousand, four and sixty seven dollars. It's our first
money gear. But just having that amount stashed in your
bank account will make a lot of debt options completely
unnecessary for you because you've got that money in the bank.
(20:44):
We want you to have more than that, of course,
more than the the initial emergency fund, but uh, that's
a necessary place to start if you want to avoid
the nasty thing that is non strategic debt. Yeah, so
let's talk about maybe how people can decipher which kind
of debt they're using. You mentioned some of the specific
non strategic forms of debt. You talked about title loans
(21:04):
and and payday loans is being the worst kind, but
that credit cards and personal loans are ones that have
kind of been normalized, but they're still we would say,
non strategic forms of debt. They're not they're not good
or smart ways to catapult yourself forward. Typically you're hamstering
yourself by by getting into debt via one of those avenues.
And so yeah, let's offer maybe a few questions to
help you understand which one you're taking on. And one
(21:26):
question to ask yourself is is this debt going to
help grow your income or will it help you grow
your net worth. We would say this is the first
litmus test to run your debt through your debt your
decision about which debt to take on through that will
help you determine whether it's ultimately good or bad fear.
Bottom line, um it's It basically helps you separate the
wheat from the chaff using using biblical terminology. Basically, by
(21:48):
asking yourself this question, you're gonna be able to determine
if you're financing, appreciating, or depreciating assets. And of course
we want you to have more appreciating assets and fewer
depreciating assets. That is the name of the game when
it comes to building wealth and getting ahead of with
your money. If you have debt for an asset, that's
appreciating the congratulations that debt can actually help you in
(22:11):
your wealth building efforts. And I think Matt probably the
best example of that is taking on debt to buy
a rental property, because yes, you are taking on debt,
but that debt is also kind of a known quantity
and you can lock it in for a fixed rate
of time, typically thirty years, and you also can have
a pretty good idea of how much that debt is
going to cash flow for you, and so that that
(22:32):
debt then becomes something that is not really a liability,
it's an asset because it's producing cash flow for you
every month. If you buy the right property and you
structure that debt, well, right, yeah, there could be a
net positive. But I like what you said if you
buy the right property, because at the same time, you
don't want to overdo it because you can even take uh,
not all investment properties are going to be smart like
like not all investment property quote unquote investment properties are
(22:54):
going to be strategic uses of debt because there are
a lot of people who don't know what they're doing
and who buy properties willy nilly because they haven't done
the research. And yeah, what was when we talked with
with Brandon's Turner, he we talked about that exactly, like
most properties aren't a goodbye. You have to find and
wait and find the one that's actually that makes sense
numbers last exactly, And the same thing can be true
(23:15):
when it comes to investing money into the stock market
as well. Right, you could potentially take on debt to
buy even more stocks, considering it a smart investment in
your future. But that's called buying on margin, and the
problem is, if your investments aren't performing all that well,
you might be subject to a margin call, forcing you
to come up with even more money that, by the way,
(23:37):
you don't have. And so that would be a much
much riskier form of financing and appreciating asset. And so again,
you don't want to overdo it. You don't want to
push the envelip too far. And again, even with real estate,
you know the reality is that even when you opt
to do it with the rental property, you still need
to have cash on hand to get you through those
leaner months, to get you through periods of vacancy or
higher than expected repair bills. Uh. No, matter what the
(24:01):
quote unquote strategic debt is that you're taking on, you
still need to be judicious. Yeah. I mean, think about
the episode that we just released on Monday with Budget
Girl with Sarah, and she talks about the duplex that
she bought. She financed it, but guess what, it also
makes her money most months. But she also, on top
of that, has the cash reserves to deal with those
(24:22):
bigger things that can and have gone wrong in her house.
And that is that is a pattern that people can
follow to build wealth on their own. It does involve
taking on debt, but it's strategic debt that for the
person who is financially savvy and has cash on hand
to back them up if things don't go your way
even for months on end, right, and you've got plumbing
issues and roof issues and h vac issues, that you
(24:44):
can still cover the payments and you have to have
that long term perspective at the same time. And so yeah,
when it comes down to a man, I guess what
we're kind of saying is that debt is it's a tool.
And so another way to maybe figure out if you're
using debt strategically is to ask yourself if you're using
the tool that you being given properly, right, And credit
cards are are a perfect example, because yeah, you mentioned
them as a non strategic form of debt. So what
(25:06):
that What you mean by that is if you're taking
on credit card debt and you're not paying it off
on time and full at the end of the month,
that is a really bad use of debt because you're
paying something like eighteen nineteen or to the credit card
companies just to be able to finance things that you
probably don't even need. And so if that's the case,
you know, having a credit card in your life, it's
doing more more harm than good. It's a tool that
(25:28):
you're using poorly. Instead of using the hammer to like
put a nail on the wall, you're using it to
like bash your own toes, right, and you don't want
to do that. So, but if you're using a credit
card as a delayed payment mechanism, right, if you have
cash in the bank account to pay off that credit
card balance no matter what else comes along, and you're
making the full payment on autopilot every single month, that
(25:48):
ensures that you're using that particular method of debt as
a means of payment that comes with some side perks,
instead of relying it on this in such an unhealthy way. So, yeah,
the debt is basically a tool, and it can be
used for good, it can be used poorly, but so
much of it depends on whose hands it's in and
how they're using it exactly. Like it reminds me a
lot of cash, right, Like sometimes folks are like, oh,
(26:10):
cash is this terrible thing, like or you know, money
in general, money is evil, and it's like, yeah, not really,
money is fairly neutral. It's a neutral tool. It depends
on how you use it. And I think the same
thing is true when it comes to debt. I think
it's a fairly neutral thing. It just it is more
divisive though, right because like I feel like money can
just be this neutral thing that sits out there, whereas debt,
you're either on one side of it or the other,
(26:32):
and so you just want to make sure that you're
on the right side of debts, or if you are
on the wrong side of it, that you are on
the right side of it in another area of life. Right, Like,
maybe when it comes to investing, it makes me think
of like a chainsaw and a chainsaw in the hands
of my three year old son. Not a good idea, right,
A chainsaw in my hands, it's okay, safe enough, probably
not what most folks would want to be, Like, I'm
(26:54):
not gonna want to stand around you. I don't want
to be on the receiving end of Joel with a
chains exactly. I would rather be holding the chainsaw myself.
But if it's let's say it's in the hands of
one of those lumberjack competitors on ESPN, then it's this
tool that's used impeccably well, And you know, I think
maybe that's how we think debt can be used. So
much of it depends on whose hands its end. Yeah, well,
(27:16):
and it's just device. It's like this, it's kind of
more of a combat of things. I like what you
said earlier about using a hammer, like using a hammer
to put something like hang up a picture. Like that's
more like cash, right, or it feels a little more neutral.
But debt is like using a hammer, either for good
or like it's either one or the other. It's either
good or bad, either hanging the picture or you're smashing
yourself on the toe causing yourself harm. But what we're
(27:36):
saying here, though, is is the net gain that you receive.
Is there a gain or is there a net loss?
As you are able to step back and look at
the whole forest. As you're looking at the whole picture,
you just want to make sure again that you're on
the right side of the equation, that you are on
the UH money is owed to me side of the equation,
not on the side of IO money. But even if
your debt levels are reasonable, we think that it pays
(27:59):
to know yourself. So for instance, maybe you find yourself
stressed out because you've taken out a mortgage on a house, right,
A lot of folks might be in that position right now,
a house that, according to the lender, you can most
definitely afford, but it turns out that that debt just
isn't for you. Well, this is when knowing your personal
debt tolerance level is going to really pay off. Particularly
(28:20):
it's going to pay off in non monetary ways. So,
for example, maybe you just recently had your student loans
wiped out and you are experiencing such an improved level
of mental health that you're now like you're just now
realizing the toll that it was previously taking on you.
The psychological reality of monthly payments and a giant, outstanding
level of debt is it's real, right, The potentially positive
(28:43):
financial benefits of taking on more debt can most definitely
be outweighed by the negative psychological ones. And so basically
what we're saying here is that just because a debt
quote unquote is strategic, that doesn't give you license just
to take out as much of that debt as possible.
Need to take into account the other ways that that
debt is going to impact you in particular your stress levels. Yeah,
(29:05):
I mean we we interviewed Andy Hill from Marriage, Kids
and Money back in the day Matt and he chose
to pay off a three percent mortgage and a lot
of people have given him crap on the twitter verse,
in the Twitter verse over over the years, saying like,
that's a dumb money move, and when you look at
like what the market has done over the past decade,
right or whatever, as he could have been investing that
money instead of paying down his mortgage more quickly. It
(29:27):
doesn't make the most sense from a dollars and cent standpoint,
But for the way Andy explains it, I see a
lot of wisdom in it. It was the best move
for he in his family because they didn't want that
debt hanging over their heads. And so yes, there is
we we well, I mean the same thing with our
friend of the show, Morgan Housel, who came on paid
off his mortgage, but he invests a hundred percent in
stocks and he's he's he you know, he invests a
(29:48):
lot of his money. Yeah, he's a super smart guy,
maybe one of the smartest guys we've had on the show.
And if you're just looking at the numbers, yeah, It
does not financially make sense to pay off your house,
but it's something that he chose to do because now
he knows that I will never lose my house. It's
not I own it. It's not the most strategic thing,
but it's the best thing for you from mental perspective,
and that matters, right, And you have to take that
(30:09):
into account to you can you know you can. You
can go crazy trying to be the most strategic person
on the face of the earth and ultimately end up
harming yourself in the process. And you might, even in
your attempts to be strategic, try to do things that
are more complex and you're able to pull off. And
so yeah, that matters too. We want to stress that
it's okay to use debt strategically, and it's okay to
take on debt to further your ability to earn or
(30:32):
to grow your net worth, but if you attempt to
get too cute with it, you might find yourself in
a pickle. And I think we've given a stat Matt
something about like people that have debt hanging over their heads,
it feels to them like their their i Q has
basically dropped twelve points. They're walking through this world a
little bit dumber because of the debt that hangs around
their necks. And I think there's a reality to that
(30:52):
as well. If that debt is is casting a shadow,
it's it's causing creating like a mental weight around your neck,
then we would say it's better to get rid of
it than it is to keep it around, just because
it's quote unquote strategic. But that makes said, let's keep
talking about strategic dead because and then I think another
way that you could use that strategically is maybe borrowing
on items. So we would typically tell you not to
(31:14):
borrow for which, by the way, I mean obviously it
sounds like we're kind of talking out of both sides
of our mouth. He sounds like a mind vendor um,
and we kind of are. But the nuance is important here. So,
for instance, I'm thinking about car loans, and the reality
is that car loans are a major problem in our country,
largely because people finance really expensive vehicle that they could
never afford if they weren't able to take out like
(31:36):
a seven or even eight year loan. Uh, they're basically
upside down for for most of that loan term. That's
a bad financial position. To be in. But what if
you have the money on hand, but you still opt
to take out a loan anyway, Because for instance, let's
say you get financing maybe at like two from your
local credit union, and then you opt instead to keep
(31:57):
that money invested instead of pulling your cash out in
order to pay for that car. We one believe that
that is a smart use of your money. So it
comes down to that opportunity costs. You have to be
able to look at the whole picture. Uh, you have
to be disciplined as well to take that money and
do something like invested. Because if you just take out
that loan and then you're like, well, no, I've got
(32:18):
this money. Uh, that that that I haven't parted ways with,
I can use that to buy other stuff, other crap
that's going to depreciate and go down to value. Well,
then that is going to be a big mistake. But
that's why it's it's so important what you do with
the money that you are not using to pay for
that item. And then the terms of your debt are important.
Let's talk about that, and let's also talk about how
the reality of higher inflation plays into your decision to
(32:40):
keep strategic debt around longer or not, And we'll get
to that right after this. All right, we are back
from the break, Joel. You you mentioned inflation. That's obviously
something that is in the news, is something we are
(33:01):
all dealing with, and that has definitely changed the strategic
debt question because the three percent mortgage, it's looking a
lot better than it did even even just a few
years ago, even just these right year ago rates are
close to six inflations, close to nine percent, and it's like, wow,
three percent mortgage feels like a slammed on keeper. Yeah,
the same thing, same thing with a car loan. Uh.
And so should you rush to pay those debts off
(33:22):
when you have extra cash on hand? Well, so much
depends on what your goals are. But the reality of
you know, inflation close to ten percent like that leads
us to believe that getting rid of low interest rate
strategic debts is going to be less appealing to us.
Right now, we want you to, you know, consider holding
on to that strategic debt and then funnel your dollars
towards more productive ends. So essentially, you are paying down
(33:45):
that loan, You're either paying down that car note or
that mortgage or hopefully not car note, just i'm gonna,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and nix that. Let's
say mortgage and student loans, hopefully the reality of some
people do have car notes and they're at reasonable rates. It.
We still hate financing depreciating assets, want to encourage it. Yeah,
but basically, like the dollars that you are using to
pay down that loan with, they're worth less than the
(34:07):
dollars that you had on hand when you first took
out that loan. Yeah, the reality of inflation does kind
of make that debt look less bad, right and more
strategic than it was even a couple of years ago.
Like we would have said a three percent mortgage then,
which just wasn't a high priority. It feels like even
less of a priority today totally. But we should also
mention that when we're talking about using debt strategically, that
(34:28):
means setting reasonable limits, because even when we're talking about
a debt that could be considered good or strategic, an
abundance of strategic debt can quickly put like a chokehold
on your personal finances. So basically, even good debt can
become toxic. You can't just continue to take on higher
and higher levels of debt completely unchecked, even if it's
the quote unquote good kind uh And student loans, for example,
(34:51):
we've seen this in spades, Matt right, that it can
be a strategic form of debt. It can be, although
with student loans being immune to bankruptcy, they're not quite
a good as they seem. And even aside from that,
you know, we've also seen the downsides clearly of taking
on copious amounts of debt in order to get a degree,
especially when we're not thinking about it, we're not thinking
about the value proposition that that degree can bring. But
(35:13):
if you opt to get that degree, let's say, and
you seek to minimize that debt by going to a
cheaper school or by like let's say, working ten hours
a week in order to borrow less, having that job
while you're going through school can lead to smaller college
loans borrowing less against that degree. And of course that
degree can boost your income and your job prospects for
decades to come. But the stats continue to show that
(35:36):
the average college graduate boost their lifetime earnings significantly. But basically,
what we're trying to say here is, even when we're
talking about the strategic use of debt. You have to
be smart because it can be overdone and it can
lead to perpetual payments that you don't want to sign
up for. Uh. And you just we we just weren't
thoughtful enough in the beginning and we didn't think creatively enough,
(35:58):
like we talked about earlier to minimize debtload. Exactly. Yeah,
you do not want perpetual payments. That sounds like the
horror film when when it comes to personal finance, the
personal finance version of a horror film, and think we
get like Jordan people to direct him. Uh. Like. So,
what you're talking about here are reasonable limits, right, And
oftentimes that comes down to the limits that we place
upon ourselves, because unfortunately the limits that lenders will place
(36:20):
on us aren't. The threshold is much higher typically to
what they will allow than what we should get ourselves
allow ourselves to get into. Right. And so they're they're
debt to income ratios out there that student loan lenders
and banks and mortgage lenders that they will allow you, like,
I mean, some banks will allow you to borrow up
to like a sibt to income ratio, whereas others who
(36:42):
are like a little more conservative are wanting to see
you closer to either way, we don't want you anywhere
near those levels. We want you to have a much
lower threshold. We want you to think about be about
post tax income and how much you can actually reasonably
afford when you're borrowing a house, not just what the
lender says you can afford, Because if you automatic really approved,
if you take out to those those limits, you're you're
(37:02):
gonna feel the financial pressure in a meaningful way to
be totally screwed. You're gonna end up like the average American.
And that's what we're trying to avoid right now. Uh.
And you know one other thing too. When we're talking
about how to think about debt payoff, the things that
will want to consider most closely are the other terms,
like the interest rate, how long it'll take you to
pay off that debt. Uh. Then the cool thing is
that you can often turn a debt that's not so
(37:24):
great into a more strategic form of debt just by
changing those terms. So refinancing a mortgage right like that
doesn't look all that smart today, but making that refly happen,
say a year ago, to lower your rate by like
one or more percentage points. Like that is an example
of getting more favorable terms that allows you to essentially
like recast that debt in the new lights, allowing you
(37:46):
to make some financial progress that is going to be
much better for your bottom line. The same thing is
sure you when it comes to refinancing a car actually
Caribou for instance, this is a site, this is a
company that will allow you to refinance a carlo and
if you've got one, or consolidating like your own debts. Uh,
let's say by using like a zero percent balance transfer
card or even helock funds to pay off the remaining
(38:09):
portion of your credit card debt in order to lower
that interest rate significantly. These are some of the different
ways that you can use some of the mechanics or
you know, some of the terms of these loans and
these debts that you might have to like transform them
to kind of like shape them and massage them into
debts that could be viewed a little more strategically. Uh.
These are some of the ways to turn your your
(38:30):
bad debts into something that's going to be far less offensive. Yeah,
maybe you're a reform spender and you're like, listen, I've
still got eight thousand dollars worth of the credit card
debt hanging out. But I also have this helock over here,
and I can pay off my credit card debt with
my helock. And guess what my helock is at five
percent my credit cards at boom, You've just been able
to help your big old spread in a big way.
That's a big spread, turning that debt into a more
(38:51):
strategic form. But here's the caveat, because we have to
throw this in there, because using debt strategically it's it's
less about shuffling the debt chairs on the Titanic. Let's
say you're not a reform spending and you're like, I'll
take the heatlock money if you'll stay off my credit
card debt, and then I'll run up that credit card
bill again. Well, you're setting yourself up for more pain
in the future. If the boats still thinking no matter what,
then it doesn't make any sense, like you're just you're
(39:12):
literally wasting time and energy in some of these pursuits
when instead you just need a I guess in the
case of the Titanic, just get on a lifeboat. Bail
completely if you can write. But there are all sorts
of ways that the people get tricked into thinking that
dumb debt can be modified in order to be not
so bad. But if paying off your credit card with
that healock, If it just lowers the balance so that
(39:33):
you can spend more and more, then you you've got
you find yourself in double trouble. You've got double the problem,
and you're just increasing your overall amount of debt in
order to spend more money that you don't have. Doing
that strategically, it just really requires the financial discipline to
avoid those bad debts moving forward. If you shuffle debts around,
you find better terms, but then the behavior never changes,
(39:56):
then you're you're going to basically be putting yourself in
a much worse POSI. You've got to get to the
root of issue. But let's say that you are in
fact going to get disciplined with your finances. You do
have some debt that we'd classify as non strategic. Uh.
You know, if you do, then modifying the terms like
it can always be helpful. But at the end of
the day, like you just need to eliminate it from
your life altogether. Uh, And to do that as quickly
(40:18):
as possible. We're big fans of you using this free
site uh undebt dot it undebt uh in order to
come up with a payoff plan that you think will
work best for you. This is especially helpfully if you
have multiple balances with a with different interest rates um
and so after you enter in your information the software,
it'll tell you which balance to focus on. If you
(40:40):
think either the debt snowball approach is gonna work best
for you, that's where you eliminate debts that have the
largest balance, or if the debt avalanche is going to
work best for you, that's when you go after the
debts that have the highest interest rates uh not balances
and so, yeah, definitely check that out. Or you know,
you might even find that like more of a hybrid
approach is going to work for you. They have a
bunch of different approach is that you can take on
(41:00):
that website. Yeah, it's not just black or white. Yeah,
they will help you formulate that plan again for free.
Which if we're talking about strategic debt, well, the strategic
move is to eliminate them as swiftly as possible, preferably
while paying the least amount of interest possible, and using
a tool like undebt, it can be helpful in that regard,
and at the end of the day, we would say
(41:22):
it's important to know your specific tolerance towards debt because
some folks they think maybe climbing everest or skydiving. They're like, oh,
that sounds super fun. I totally want to do that.
Other people say that's insane, it's utterly reckless to go
climb a mountain and stand at twenty feet above sea level. Well,
we all kind of think about risk differently, and we
(41:44):
actually talked about that with economist Alison Sregar back back
in episode five three. Uh so that that is just
kind of part of the game. We all have different tendencies.
But for some folks, you know, that three percent mortgage
is something they want off their mind altogether. I get it,
you know, even though Matt and I we think of
that as a strategic debt that you could easily justify
taking your sweet time to pay off, you know, allowing
(42:04):
yourself to accomplish other financial goals a lot more quickly
because you're not rushing to be done with it. Well,
that doesn't mean that it's the best course of action
for you, because we ultimately we recognize the psychological reality
that lingering debt. It could be doing more harm than
good for some folks. But let'slet's say you're the opposite
type of person, Matt. Let's say you are the person
who would go hang glauding on a whim not think
(42:26):
twice about it, or you like base jumping something like that,
jumping from skyscrapers in major cities. Well, we we want
those kind of people to be careful not to let
their exuberance uh extend into their money decisions, because it's
easy to say, no, I'm I'm super risky, I'm willing
to take these thoughts on strategic debt use to like
the furthest degree possible. Yeah, well, you might find yourself
(42:49):
overextended in the position you don't want to find yourself in.
And so both sides of the coin, the people who
are are risk averse and the people who are all
about taking on greater levels of risks, they both need
to Maybe maybe we can all be brought to the
center a little bit as we kind of talk about
the strategic use of debt. Even that can be overdone,
I think so. I think a lot of us, a
lot of folks out there could probably use a little
(43:11):
more balance when it comes to how they viewed debt.
And eventually, the thing is too even if you have
strategic debt in your life, you're gonna want to eradicate
that as well. You know, like who wants to have
their student loans haunt them into retirement? Nobody. But the
truth is that engineering your personal finances to include the
use of some strategic debt can help you to make
progress more quickly. It allows you to use your dollars
(43:33):
in like the in the most efficient manner. But so
many of us have just been warned so severely about
the dangers of debt that we have refused to believe
that it can be any good. And the truth is,
you know that debt it's used improperly more often than
it's used smartly in in a wise way. But that
doesn't mean that it is not possible or even desirable
to use debt in an intelligent manner. We want you
(43:53):
to kind of. It's a pendulum that swings back and forth,
and depending on where you are in life, and depending
on your your personal risk tolerance, you're gonna find yourself
swinging one way or the other. And I don't know,
like there might be tons in your life when you
do need to eliminate it completely. It just depends on
what you've got going on. But we we want folks
to approach it with a little bit more nuanced because
we think that it can serve you well well, especially
(44:15):
in our in a modern society right where to take
on debt to go get a higher education, if it's
done smartly, can result in hundreds of thousands of dollars
more income during the rest of your life. And if
you take the debt is dumb approach, you're potentially pushing
aside future income. Or you might be saying, you know what,
I only want to buy a house if it's cash,
(44:35):
because I think that is the devil. And if you
do that, you might be waiting a decade or longer
in order to buy them home. It's tough easily to
save up to bate to buy a house in cash.
Or you might say rental property is not for me
because it means I have to take on debt, and
that's that's a scary thing. But if you run the
numbers and you're like, man, I can use that debt
strategically to increase my cash flow, to further my income,
(44:57):
to build wealth, suddenly it becomes more or of like
a jumping stone than it does hindrance, and so yeah,
it's it's not that debt can't be used poorly most
of the time it is, but we think it can
also be used strategically and can help you reach your
financial goals more quickly if you're smart about it. That's right,
all right, Now, let's get back to the beer that
we had on this episode. This is called Milk and Cookies.
(45:18):
It's by Wicked Weed Brewing. What were your thoughts on this? Stout, man,
I wish I had some more. I really like this one.
Although it says milk and cookies, it made me think
that this is going to be a milks Is it
a milkstop? It doesn't say on here if it is
a milk stop, but it definitely had the cookies flavor
going on. It says says it was brewed with golden raisins, cinnamon,
and vanilla, picking up the cinnamon like it was almost
(45:39):
the first thing I noticed. It tastes like uh, eating
a stick or doole basically, but I did not feel
that it was too much. It was like borderline too
much like the kind of the the spiciness that it
had going on, but it had enough sweetness from the
vanilla some maybe some of the sweetness from those golden
raisins as well to balance it out. But I really
I dug this one for a late summer imperial stout,
(45:59):
not typically a style that you go for this time
of the year, but I definitely enjoyed it. Yeah, I agree,
I think it as well. I thought this was a
lot better than the one we had on Monday. I
liked it at Brownie not so good, not so good.
Milk and cookies, Yeah, this is pretty good. I supposed
to be like hem brownies too, and I guess I
just want to pick it up what they were putting down.
But milk and cookies, man that and especially I don't
(46:20):
know cinnamon in a beer in the stalia, it's it's
usually good vibe if it's not ever done, good combination
and pluses, I mean with the golden raisins like it's
got me thinking of oatmeal raisin cookies, which are one
of my favorite types of cookies, highly underrated cookies oatmeal
raisin cookies. Although there's there's no oatmeal in this. This
is not an oatmeal style, but it was a great
(46:42):
imperial stout. Again, this is from Wicked Weed up there
in Asheville, North Carolina. Definitely check them out if you
happen to be in the area for sure. All right,
that's gonna do it for this episode. We will put
links to everything we mentioned, including that tool that will
help you formulate a plan to pay off your debt.
We'll we'll have all those links up on our site
at how to money dot com. That's right, so, buddy,
(47:02):
that is going to be it for this episode until
next time. Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.