May 27, 2025 • 43 mins
Mia talks with journalist Mira Lazine of the Free Radical about how the UK government and media covered up the deaths of trans people.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Call Zon Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey, this is me in the future. This is recorded
in the now halcyon days of January twenty twenty five.
Lots of things have changed. Basically everything everywhere has gotten worse.
This is the story about the oppression of Trends people
in the United Kingdom that is very bleak. In many ways,
United Kingdom has gotten worse since then. The UK Supreme
(00:28):
Court has ruled that the definition of sex and the
Equality Act of twenty ten is quote binary and is
decided by quote biological sex. So whatever the sex that
some fucking doctor assigns you at birth is your sex
specifically under the Equalities Act. A bunch of people in
the UK have decided that this means that the courts
have ruled that like sex in general means quote unquote
(00:51):
biological sex. That's actually not what they ruled, but they're
doing anyways. So there's been a whole bunch of things where,
for example, the Labor Party has started purging Trends women
from any like one of their bodies that's supposed to
be a woman's body. So through the oppression of trans
people continues to escalate. Yeah, our only path out is
(01:12):
just open and active resistance. Against them in a more
positive notes, Mira, our guest for this episode, has since
since this episode, has struck out on her own and
is now the mind and genius behind the outlet Free Radical.
She will link to here and you should go support
her work because it's great. Now to our episode, it's
(01:33):
it could happen here a podcast that is.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Largely about the US.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
That might that might exaggerate the ex sat to which
is about the US, but it is. Most episodes are
about the US, but sometimes it's about other places. And
one of the frequent places that it's about is the
United Kingdom, And specifically we're gonna talk about the United
Kingdom because the UK is both an image of the
present and the future of the oppression of trans people.
(01:59):
And there have been in a bunch of just absolutely
horrible things happening there that have gotten very little press attention.
And one of the one of those things is what
appears to be a like I guess I would call
it like a two stage cover up of a bunch
of suicides of trans kids on waiting list for healthcare.
And with me to talk about this fucking terrible shit
(02:22):
is Mira Lasine, who's a freelance trans journalist Miro. Welcome
to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Great to be here, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Yeah. So, I mean, God, this is one of those
I always am excited to talk to people, but I
swear to God, like one of the every four times
this happens, it's like a I have to pull it,
do you? I want to say, I'm excited to talk
to you about this because, like Jesus christis is the
most depressing shit I've seen in ages.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah, it's not a fun story. It's an important one,
probably one of the most important I've ever borded on,
but not remotely fun.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
So let's go back to the how I'll see in
days of mid twenty twenty four. I don't know, thanks
for she really bad then too, but they're worse now,
but they were.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Also bad then.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Yeah. So can you talk a bit about how this
story started and about what was going on with the
National Health Service, the NHS, which is the British basically
the British healthcare system is run out of National Health Service.
Can you talk about the whistleblowers there and what was
going on with them?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
So, yeah, I first became aware of whats going on independently,
I was working with Alejandra Carabio, the clinical instructor of
cyber Law Clanic at Harvard. She's a friend of mine
and we worked together on subjects. She and Ira and
(03:46):
almost some other people were talking about the horrific wait
lists going on with the NHS. It's terrible there, I
mean not even just for trance stuff, throwing millions of
reports of people having to wait months to get essential healthcare.
Some people have died just from like their conditions being
(04:09):
on the wait list. We had both stumbled upon some
old news reports from like years prior about trans kids
who had unfortunately committed suicide as a result of not
getting the essential health plague they need on the waitlist.
These stories are not talked about their media at all.
(04:30):
They got like one art mentioned ning what happened to them,
and then that was it. So we started to investigate it.
She was compiling a spreadsheet of everything she could find,
every news report of kids who experienced this. I was
pitching help and contribute to that spreadsheets. And then right
(04:50):
around the same time, the director then of the Good
Law Project, a civil rights organization that does a lot
of the stuff in the United Kingdom his name is
Jolyn Mongham apologized if I mispronounced that. He came out
with a Twitter thread revealing and this was very suddenly.
(05:11):
He hadn't contacted anyone about this. He just kind of
posted it right when he got enough of a story
and everything. He revealed that he was talking to a
couple of whistleblowers within the NHS about what was going down.
And not only did he talk to some whistleblowers, but
he also gained some independent evidence from himself his own investigation,
(05:36):
from meeting minutes from officials in the NHS, and so
what he found kind of began with the first whistle blower.
This one was someone who did not reveal much about
who they were publicly and presumably to protect your job.
But Logan said that with his whistleblowers, he independently confirmed
(05:59):
that they did worked for the NHS. He saw their
ideas Mohm's up typic guy to lie. He's a trusted
figure in the UK political scene. First one said that
there was only one reported suicide prior to twenty twenty.
Significance of twenty twenty in relation to Shrethelthcare at Nited
(06:21):
Kingdom was that the infamous case Bell versus Tatistock. I'm
not going to go into detail of this case because
it convoluted messy and hellish, but the gist of it
is that it led to tightened restrictions on gender perman
careacter miners, particularly in the new realm of puberty blockers.
(06:42):
This ruling ended up kind of restricting how might act
ass puberty walkers. Some it was a leader overturned, but
it already led to lasting damage. Even after it was overturned.
A lot of doctors for hensigent to even prescribed purbity
blockers because they were worried about political consequences. So a
lot of miners weren't getting the care they need.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, and we should also mention here too, because I
think this has been lost in a lot of the
reporting on this because like I mean, I guess this
is the story where a lot of the reporting was
done by trans people just because like nobody gives a shit.
But like, the thing about puberty blockers is that puberty
blockers with the healthcare of trans youth were always a
sort of compromise measure that was, you know, sort of
put in place as a compromise of like instead of
(07:23):
letting kids actually transition and like, you know, go on hormones,
which is, you know, the thing that kids like need,
right if your goal is to like improve the health
outcomes of trans kids, like the thing you actually want
for them, like maximally is for them to have the
ability to get gender affirming hormones. But you know, the
sort of the sort of compromised thing that was happenings like, well,
(07:44):
you could have puberty blockers, but you know, you can
start horp buns later, and that is not a good
compromise to begin with, but losing it is even worse
because the alternative to that is, like you are now
spending even more time with a bunch of fucking hormones
in your system that you don't want, more of, more
of the hormones that you fucking want, and you know
(08:04):
you're getting you're being forced to go through puberty, which
fucking sucks. Shit if you're going through I don't know,
I don't know if the wrong puberty is like the
correct language or whatever, but like it fucking sucks. It's awful.
And but now you know, and this is just something
that's happening in the US too. It's also happening in
the UK is that the compromised solutions are being knocked
(08:25):
out and we're seeing the sort of knock on effects
of these kids losing even the sort of compromise stuff
they're supposed to be getting.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yeah, and they used deep bogus justifications for this, or
like we don't see any benefits of puberty blockers, and
it's like, the point is not that they are benefiting
these kids directly. No kid is like, oh boy, I
get to be five years behind on puberty from my peers,
I get to look like a ten year old while
all my peers have full on beam everything. Oh boy.
(08:54):
Like no, but the point is that these kids are
being deprived of the care they absolutely need to stay
it live, and it's being targeted just for the sole
purpose of getting cheap politicals from what are the hells
in office? Yeah, but more back to the whistleblowers. So
(09:14):
prior to twenty twenty, when the Belvy Tavistock ruling came
into effect, only one transmitter died from suicide. I don't
quite remember how I framed the used estimated, but it
was broader than the one they used after. I believe
it was like seven years I think, and the years
after which was measured up to like the very beginning
(09:36):
of twenty twenty four, like Chaneu were twenty twenty four,
so not even four years, more like three years and
twne months. They recorded sixteen debts. Yeah, sixteen transgender minors
committed to suicide, and they were all able to be
linked to restrictions on computy quarters and NHS wave lists.
(10:02):
This whistle blower says this data came directly from a
doctor who analyzes just stuck professionally, is like part of
his job in the NHS. The doctor also wanted to
be anonymous, understandably, he named himself the quote named doctor
for Safeguarding should. He tried to warn people in the
NHS about this. He was like, hey, there's something wrong.
(10:24):
This isn't right. We are fucking up. And he talked
to so many different people, including doctor Hillary Cass, who
will talk a bit about later.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
This is a literary device called foreshadowy, ETCETERA giant clip
flashing big here, giant ominous music surrounding her name does
He just warned of.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
People basically, and they all ignored him. They all just
according to him. And this is all I have to say.
You know, this has not been verified in the court
of law or anything. This is according to the whistleblowers
in Mongham, but we have no reason to believe they
lied or fabricated this information about this was not even
(11:13):
revealed publicly. There's no public outcry. There was no action
taken by the NHS or any of the clinics. So
that is the first whistle blower and the whistleblower's connection
to that doctor. The second one basically can and gave
independent verification of this. They were like, yeah, I've seen
the data for myself too, I can confirm this is legitimate.
(11:36):
Now it wasn't just these three staff members who were
trying to raise a larm bells. According to the second
whistle blower, staff and the NHS were like, hey, well
this is not cool. We need to do something, and
so they got an open letter, sent it to their
higher ups and reportedly the director of the Tavistock Clinic,
which was at the time the only gender affirming care
(12:00):
clinics for minors in the entire United Kingdom. Since that
is more opened up, but it's a really complicated thing.
That's a headache to deal with. But head honchos at
Papa Stock completely retapliated. They threatened them a discipline interaction,
they suppressed maturial. They're basically were like, you go public
(12:20):
about this, if you continue talking about this, you're gonna
face consequences.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
The thing, the thing I instantly came to mind here,
and I think it's just specifically because of number sixteen,
but like the first time I read this, the first
thing that came to my mind was there, you know,
there's the sort of famous Chicago story of the police
killing of the Clint McDonald where the slogan afterwards was
sixteen shots and a cover up. And this is fucking
sixteen deaded to cover up. And the about a fucking
(12:48):
rage that I have for all for this, all of
this fucking shit, that these people covered this up, that
they knew this was happening, and we're just like and
not only knew this was happening and not only didn't
do anything about it, but like actively he contributed to
fucking making it worse by threatening anyone to try to
talk about it. Is just so unbelievably disgusting. Yeah, I
was the first one who broke the story. I basically
(13:11):
reported on it, like almost immediately after Malgam went public
about this, because I knew not many people were going
to report on this right away and it was going
to kind of be a headache.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I didn't know how you would, but I was the
first one to report on it. I did it for
jeuerlest Aaron read subsect Ara in the morning back in
June of last year, and I had to stop writing
it multiple times, like I spent the entire day thing
on it, because it was stomach wrenching reading some of
these stories and doing everything. The only reason I even
(13:44):
got through it was because I dissociated the entire time
and just kind of compartmentalized the anger of bunch Beta.
It's like Jesus Christ, this is horrifying. But Margin was
not talking out of his ass with this too. He
brought receipts right in the initial thread, showed leaked to
meeting minutes, and like you can see water marks from
(14:05):
the NHS on these meeting minutes. Like it is unless
someone wants to suggest that he did a giant conspiracy
and fabricated a bunch of very accurate meeting minutes that
reflect publicly available meeting minutes elsewhere, it's pretty reputable. Yeah,
these minutes show that any test officials were aware of
(14:26):
every single one of these debts, every single one of them.
People were in these meetings calling for an independent investigation
into each of these debts, into gender affirming care pro miners,
into restrictions. They wanted to investigate everything and had detailed data.
They had information on the type of care they received,
(14:49):
which was basically negligence, and instead of reporting on this publicly,
instead of doing an investigation, they covered this up. They
didn't do anything, and they just pretended like everything was fine,
like there was no debts as a result of this.
They were acting nothing wrong was going on. And these
(15:11):
meeting minutes are still public too. Magan is not believe in.
It's still on his Twitter account. Good Law Project is
not fully any more of the kind of dissolving their
stuff right now, but Magan is still keeping all information up.
It's all detailed, it's publicly there. People can see for
themselves these minutes, and it's horrifying seeing the physical proof.
(15:35):
It's yeah, it's horrifying.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Yeah, And we need to go to ads and when
we come back, we'll get to the second fucking cover up,
because there was a second one. Did it again? This
time with the British Broadcasting What the fuck does the
C stand for corporation? That one British broadcast in corporation
leading the charge and we are back. So let's talk
(16:07):
about the fucking second cover up because normally, normally you
only get one cover up when your fucking health care
policies kill a bunch of people, but no, two, they
got multiple cover ups. Before we get to the second
cover up, we need to talk about what the CAST
Report is, because that's also part of this that we
kind of bounced around a little bit but then didn't. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Well, yeah, so the CAST Report is probably one of
the worst things to come out at the anti trans
crowd in the past decade. Yeah. The gist of it
is it's essentially a supplusively independent report commissioned by the
Knighting government to investigate the efficacy of hubery blockers and
(16:49):
gender heerman character minors, authored by doctor Hillard Cass, who
they claim is an expert in this subject. I'll get
to that in the second. Yeah, the gist of what
it was claiming is that nope, puberty blockers do anything.
They actually hurt the kids, they don't improve mental health,
they don't protect anything. Suicides stay the same, it's all bad.
(17:11):
Get rid of them and actually restrict gender referman care too,
and also maybe we should detransition these kids too. It's
a very long document. It's actually a set of documents,
but the primary one isn't incredibly long. I remember when
it first it came out last year. It's been in
(17:34):
the works for the better part of the last decade,
most of the twenty ten's it's been in the works.
I don't remember the exact year that it was initially commissioned,
but it's been something the United Kingdom government has been
waiting on for a while to take action for gender
reforming care. Now, to understand the Cast report, you gotta
understand a little bit about Hillary Casts. Hillary cass is
(17:57):
not an expert in gender firming care form. She has
never treated a transgender patient in her professional practice whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Would thank god, because holy shit, Oh she is such
a transphob Oh my god. Yes, but yeah, also utterly unqualified.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Completely unqualified while she was writing it instead of talk
with single trans person as like part of the consulting,
because she didn't do it by herself. It's wait too
long for anyone to do buyers, but by themselves. She
got a bunch of unknown advisers to help her with this,
one of which is a Finnish psychiatrist who has been
(18:37):
campaign against transgender rights for the past twenty years. Yep,
but she did not have any trans people on the
consulting board, not a single one.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Well, of course, why would you talk to a transperson
about trans health care? Like, that's why would you. Trans
people don't know anything. They need to be regulated and
told exactly what's best for them by people who have
never even talked to them before. She actually, while she
was writing it, she talked to Florida healthcare officials during
(19:07):
the Ron DeSantis instration for information on what to do.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Like and these officials, by the way, they weren't just
like leftovers from the prior governor. They were appointed by
Ron de Santis and have literally been Jews bidding and
restricting healthcare.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Yeah, appointed by the guy who in the last campaign
cycle had to fucking add with a son and rat
in it. So like, you know the level of Nazi
we're dealing with here, huh.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And not only did she worked with them, but there's
even more. She worked with numerous people who were tied
to anti translate groups, most notable of which is the
quote Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine GOD. They are
probably one of the leading anti trans groups right now.
(20:02):
They are a Southern poverty law centered, desic hate group.
They're not very fun people. They all have a financial
interest in opposing transgender rights. Many of the people with
them have been quite paid to oppose transjunder rights in courts.
There's a whole rabbit hole to get into there. The
point being she's worked with hate groups, she's worked with
the Santa's appointees, she talked to no trans people, and
(20:27):
she of lied a lot. When the cast brew first
came out, I was one of the people who was
working around the clock to try to be like, hey,
let's not just assume that this is immediately accurate, because
we should wait for independent scholars to evaluate this. There's
a lot of shady stuff going on here, and why
didn't you know it? A lot of things were wrong
(20:49):
for starters. Ass misrepresented a lot of what she did
for the review. It was supposed to be a systematic
review into all the literature and PUBI blockers is she
left out a bunch of studies, especially more recent ones
with that are elogies. She and her method degrade them.
Basically changed it up last minute and didn't seek your
(21:10):
review for it from her institutions review the board, which
she didn't speak any ethical verification on anything.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Yeah, which which is which is amazing. It's like, do
you know how fucked your report has to be and
like your anti transferport has to be and not be
able to survive a British peer.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Review board, like Jesus Christ. It's like yeah, like it's
it gets even worse because as time went on, a
lot of journalists myself included, found a bunch of little
pact rolling out seats there. She was misrepresenting this study.
She was misterpreenting that study. Lots of little information. It
(21:49):
was she at one point fighted a YouTube channel that
is dedicated to opposing trans rate than be the YouTube
channel in her fucking seconds. It was a tangential citation,
but the point being the fact that she even discovered
that shows her allegiances. She was in the cast review.
(22:10):
She was trying to cast doubt on the leading medical
association for trans people, the war Professional Association for Transgender Health.
She was like, oh no, they're actually not good. They're
politically biased. I'm not though, don't worreayes. Don't investigate me.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
And in the time since, there's been a shitt ton
of medical experts coming forward opposing the CAST Review, being like, no,
the methodology is garbage. Not just journalists saying it. There
have quite littlely been hundreds of metabirds who have come
forward to publicly oppose the CAST Review. These are people
across a variety of fields, psychiatrists, pediatrician, chronologists, basically everyone
(22:51):
you could imagine who would be relevant to the study
of transcendor health and minors. They have come forward against it,
including most of the leading researchers in the field, including
people who have actually imporked with trans people in a
professional capacity.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Wow, and this review. It's the reason the United Kingdom
went on last year to ban puberty blockers in all
four countries within it. They started in England, then they
spread it out to Scotland, Wales with their beauty blocker ban,
and was recently right before New Year's they banned it
(23:31):
in Northern Ireland. And because of this, so many clinics
are now just not treating trans people, including transgender adults.
They're ing out transgender adults not getting the care they
need because of something to even discuss trans adults in
a meaningful capacity.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Yeah, And that's part of the thing with the Cash Review, right,
is that, like you know, it literally like it could
have just been like seven hundred pages of fuck you
over and over again and it would have had the
same effects, because the point of the Cast Review wasn't
actually to like establish anything medically. It was to just
have a document that you could point at and then
justify any policy whatsoever. Like it's it's kind of like
(24:10):
it's kind of like the way the Gambits and the
Bell Curve works were, like none of the actual policy
recommendations follow from any of the arguments that they're making,
but it exists so that you can make those policy
arguments and then point to like, oh, it's because of
IQ and this is this is the same like bullshit IQ,
like fake IQ science, right, Like there's.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Literally IQ science used to justify the puberty blocker band.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Of course there is.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
They are claiming that puberty blockers reduce IQ using a
study from like two thousand and one on one of
the and a separate study on shown my God, I
set the study on fucking sheep. How are you measuring
the IQ of sheep? Like what?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Yeah, okay, yeah, we wheeled in the sheep to do
the fucking Army Standard amplitude test.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Like, ah, it's scored real bad.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
Give it puberty blockers and it scored even worse.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
It gets garbage science.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, but one of the important things like inclusions here
is that, like so one of the one of the
sort of things that's happening now is that fucking feral
attack dog. I don't know, you fucking assuming you motherfucker.
We won the revolution each shit west Streeting who's now
running British Healthcare, issued a fucking thing to ban puberty
blockers for trans youth, you know, and he cites the
(25:26):
Cash Report. Do you know what's not in the Cash Report?
A recommendation to ban puberty blockers? Do you know these
fucking doing me anyways? Because that's the actual sort of
purpose of the report is to serve as sort of
like just a kind of like talasman you can hold
up and say, ha, see this is justified. Yeah, and
can you can you talk about the whistleblowers and the
Cash Report too, because this is the thing I has
(25:48):
seen very very little coverage. That is extremely important.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, so the whistle blowers, they literally reached out to
the Cast while she was bringing their she had to
be like, hey, restricting puberty blockers isn't good. And like
you said, Tass did not recommend to ban puberty blockers.
She called for more research into it and like some restrictions,
but not an outgrade band that was not anywhere within it.
(26:13):
Even with her extremism, she's like, maybe we shouldn't restrict
everything completely, you know, maybe we should just transition some
of the kids. But she did not advocate for a
full on ban, and she has even gone public into
the media to clarify that she has does not believe
in a full on ban. And yet she ignored the whistleblowers.
(26:37):
She ignored them when they came to her, being like, hey,
there's evidence that restricting pubery blockers is causing these depths
to wreck and she didn't do anything. We don't know
the specifics of that conversation. That's not public information. But
we read the cast review here not coming away with
it thinking, oh boy, she's really concerned about his towards
(27:00):
killing themselves. Yeah, you're coming away with it thinking she
doesn't believe as shit and she has her own agenda.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Yeah, and so okay, we're gonna take another ad break
and then we're going to get to the promise second
cover up, and we're back for cover up number two.
So okay, we have now introduced briefly the fucking spawn
(27:30):
of Satan himself, West Reading. Can you talk a little
bit more about him and the cover up that he
commissioned of this.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
So yeah, when I broke this story, it was getting
no coverage. No other news outlet wanted to touch it.
There were actually some journalists I talked to I'm not
going to name any names, but journalists I talk to
you who are trying to get their editors to publish
a story on these claims, and they were like, m
I don't think so, I think we're going to do that,
(28:00):
speculated and things like that, which people were actively shutting
it down, especially in the British media. Yeah, and for
about a month, the nhster was Nortonis and not getting
public comment, entered west streeting. You said, he is the
head of British healthcare officially, he is like fucking the
head of the Secretary of State for Help and Social Care.
(28:22):
Some shit like that. But he's a sellout. He's a
labor guy, you know, the party that's supposed to be
at least kind of left wing in some and he
threw trans people under the bus the first chance he got.
Right after Turf started pressing him for it. Wes Streeting,
in all his awful, awful glory, looked at Mugan's thread
(28:47):
and thought, what if I denied this? So he commissioned
Professor Lewis Albi for Appleby. He is a leading suicide
researcher he at the University of Manchester. Except even though
he's been in the field of suicide research for decades,
in the past year or so he's been cozying up
(29:08):
to a lot of antutrians people. Yeah, there's best shipped
ton of tweets of him basically talking to turfs repeating
the oh you can't have men and women's sports nonsense,
you can What does him going down the pipeline?
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah, he's just he's a turf. Yeah, like that's the.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, he's not the turf. He's a turf. Who I do?
It's not professionally really work with Transius commits suicide. He
does not discuss LGBTQ issues in his research as his
primary focus. He does it for the general population. Yeah,
I haven't reared every single study of his, so it's
probably as like one or two that talk about HBQ
(29:46):
suicide rates. But by no means is he like the
guy you go to to learn about why suicide attempts
and suicide rates are a thing in the LGBTQ population.
West Reading was like, hey, was do you want to
write a quote unquote debunking of Margam's dread? So enter,
(30:09):
I have it up right now. They quote review of
suicide from Gender dysphoriat the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation
Trust Independent report. This guy, you basically claim that, Nope,
there's no data for this. Actually, Mogham's wrong, That data
pans it out. The data doesn't lie.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
It's also funny because this argument is that trans people
were already killing themselves. Yeah, it was just like on them,
which is really fucking plaque when you think about it.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
But uh, now there's cripes a million breaks people can
have with this. For start, the data set is obviously
too small to analyze fucking statistically, makes no sense to
try to do a fucking indathatistical analysis on what maug
was cleaning with sixteen kids. That's not but you're not
going to get shit out of that. It's not really
(31:00):
a big issue with it. The big issue that Malgum
himself actually pointed out in the same day that this
came out, Logan pointed out that this analysis was just
long from the start for starters. This guy analyzed quote
current and former patients of under Identity Service. Malcolm's claims
(31:27):
weren't about that. Waldom's claims were about those who are
on the waiting list, which.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Is which which is just nuts. Like I s up
here for a second.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
It's like the difference between again on the waiting list
and have finished care Like what, yeah, what are we
doing here?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Like oh god, how did this get past any media outlet?
Speaker 4 (31:52):
I mean tree'sphobia but like really yeah, now there's other
problems with it, but what it's kind of suspicious.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
So apple Bye, Applebee however he pronounced his last name.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
He's going to call him Applebee's because fuck him Applebee's.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Fuck it. He used data directly provided by NHS Inngland. Now,
student viewers will notice something Magham never claimed to access
data directly given to them from NHS Inngland. He was
given data from whistleblowers. Logham actually in this direct because
he wrote a whole debunking this debunking, and Margan was like,
(32:32):
he revealed that he actually a month before this was published,
he reached out to NHS angling to be like, hey,
can I have your data on this subject. I've gotten
a lot of information I want to try to corroborate it.
They denied him the data. They just denied him it.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
Yeah, I remember incorrectly. Part of it was they claimed
the data didn't exist.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah, yeah, they claimed it didn't exist, that they just
didn't have it at all, and something they pulled that
up in air for little Applebee's. Well, there's some other
intrare inconsistencies. As we know, Logham had receipts he provided
information on minutes directly from NHS meetings discussing these suicides.
(33:16):
That the minutes don't match up to the data Applebee's,
as Applebee's is under estimating every then. And yeah, very
recently this has not gotten any media coverage at all.
Those who have been following UK politics for a while,
especially trans politics, remember the unfortunate case of Alice Lynn.
(33:37):
She was a young traentleman who committed suicide as of
NHS wait lists years ago. Her mother, er Littmann, has
been a staunch ally trans people since she's been one
of the fuses people in the UK to be like, hey, no,
I'm I'm putting my all behind trans people. She's wonderful.
(33:58):
She came out publicly for v Link that Alice Litman
was not included in Applebe's data set even though she
should have been. She was within yeah, the years. So
what this says is that Applebee's had bad data that
didn't include every kid.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Yeah. Well, here's the thing we don't know about that, right.
It's it's possible he had bad data. It's possible he's
also just been falsifying his data because like again, he
won't show it to us. So we have no fucking
idea what like was what he was actually provided with
and what he was like, you know, or what things
he did to the data sets that he was given
(34:39):
beforehand to produce what he's analyzing in his report.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
True, and there was of course a bunch of smaller
issues you could point out with Applebee's review, but the
crux of it it's bogus data is a matchup. As
you said, he could be falsifying it. He could have
just been given bad data. We don't know. He's not
sharing anything. The NHS is sharing anything. Yeah, but all
(35:02):
we know is that there's some major inconsistencies and they
they're not doing shit with it. And this is where
we enter everyone's favorite mainstream media, the lovely British media
specifically outlooks like the BBC right literally within the first
twenty four hours of this review coming out, they reported
(35:24):
on it. At this point, my coverage has been there
for a month. It Logam's claims have been out there
for a month. They weren't touched them. And yet the
moment someone came out with the nagest trying to be like,
actually it's false, they were rushing to report on it
something they claimed was not newsworthy previously. Yeah, and mind you,
(35:45):
Logan's rebuttal to this review was posted publicly at this time,
at the time that this media coverage was going up.
At the BBC article breaking the story up, the only
discussion they give to basically any issues with this. It's
(36:06):
just a couple of brief sentences talking about Mogam's issues
with it. At the beginning, they just claimed that Morgan
had profound difficulties. And at the very end of the article,
buried at the bottom, they gave Mogham like three sentences,
and they left out a lot of information, like the
minutes Mogham showed that he got from whistleblowers, the exact
(36:28):
claims he got from whistle blowers. They just didn't report
on it. They they gave such intense coverage to Applebee's
Applebee's claims in the review, and then they just flat
out ignored everything Mogham was saying, everything everyone else was doing.
Now again I add, sure, we don't know for sure
(36:50):
whether who's telling the trubery, but the NHS has an
incentive to lie here Mogham doesn't. Mogham is getting his
career torch basically because they're going forward about all this.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
And you can tell which side the BBC is on.
You know, they give the game away at the end
where they give the last word of this article to
Ken Barker, who is the chief executive the LGB Alliance,
which is an anti transait group, and you know, and
they give her the last sentence saying that trans people
are spreading misinformation to serve a dangerous and homophobic ideology.
(37:22):
And I like quite specifically, like Kate Barker, if you
ever fucking listen to this, fuck you eat shit like
this is direct evidence that of the BBC's fucking political
line here, because again they're they're they're giving the closing
statement to a group that is literally just an anti
transa group because the BBC is the institutional is institutional
fucking media arm of the British government, and the British
(37:44):
government is institutionally transphobic.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yeah, and I'm not going to say that what the
information right now, we have a definitives that's not the problem.
The problem is this of Ben being investigated. Any non
biased fucking NHS, any non biased British Yeah, would look
at Moggan's claims and think, oh wow, we should look
into this. We should independently verify. Yeah, we should try
(38:08):
to career operate everything saying or at least see if
he's accurate.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
Which which again and I want to put this out
this is the job of a journalist. The job of
a journalist is not to fucking literally reprint a press
report from fucking like commissioned by the fucking government. Your
job is to go find the fucking whistleblowers and talk
to people. Did the British Did the fucking BBC do this? No,
of course they didn't, because they're fucking pr hacks. Yep,
they're pr hacks for a transgendocide. And like quite frankly,
(38:33):
and I will say this on the fucking record, because
I'm not a journalist, fuck these people, like this is
this is This is what the BBC wants, like like
fucking dead trans kids and a cover up is what
they institutionally what this fucking organization wants because they fucking
hate trans people and they are completely okay with all
of this shit happening as long as long as they
fucking get to do another story about how fucking JK
(38:55):
Rowling is a brave truth teller or whatever like this,
this is what these people want.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
I agree, and I also agree with your statement. Uh,
the British media cannot call fuck themselves and I hope
they rob them. Hell yeah, I don't know how you
can as a journalist, someone trained to prioritize the truth
and nothing but the truth, look at all this and
think this is suspicious going on there there's nothing that
Lawrence further investigation, even if Malcolm's claims are false, right,
(39:23):
even if everything Malcolm says he made it up. He's
an influential guy. He has been covered by the media
for his lawsuits with the Good Law Project countless time before.
He's made national headlines there. And they don't investigate this
at all, Like, yeah, they're rushing to report on everything.
Fucking JK. Rowling says everything some random fucking turf is saying,
(39:45):
May Angelou, whoever turf you want to run?
Speaker 4 (39:48):
Oh yeah, I'm realizing there are people listening to this.
I don't know, maybe you'reself listening to the episode. You
don't know about the JK rolling turf stuff, but like
to get an understanding of like how vehement of like
an anti trans hate figure she is, Like anti trans
groups literally wear her face as a mask. Like I'm
not joking. She she she fucking retweeted them an anti
(40:10):
trans group literally wearing like printed out copies of her
face as a mask. Like that is that? That is
the status that she has in in in the anti
trans world, right, Like and then the BBC fucking loves
her so Africa she does, and she's not even an
expert in anything.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
She's a fucking author of children's books.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Like yeah, you know, it's like, well, we'll we'll talk
to the authors of Sheldon's books when we talk to
trans people, know, And I mean that's the ever thing
about this is like the BBC never talked to a transperson.
They did talk to an anti transcit group though, so
you know you you you know, you know what fucking
side of this is is considered valid by the British
political and media establishment. Oh and also at the bottom
(40:53):
and like, I know that they're doing this because this
is just like standard policy for like if you're doing
a thing story about suicide, but the very if the
article is a is a link to a bunch of
suicide and crisis hotlines. So uh, one last fuck you
to every trans person reading this. Yeah, the one two
punch of we quoted an anti trans hate figure, here's
(41:14):
a suicide hotline is like real.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Who, yeah, it's it's a it's a fucking insult.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
It Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
It just gets me how they didn't report on these
claims at all when they were initially made, Like it
didn't even have to be a big story like most
fucking outlets I've written for would have just reported as like,
oh this, this guy said this, were waiting more information,
okay whatever. It wouldn't be a good reporting, but it'd
be the bare minimum. They didn't even do that. They
rushed to just to repeat whatever the fuck. A commission
(41:45):
review from the government said that's more reputable, I guess
than you know, leading advocates who actually cited their sources
instead of just throwing shit at the wall.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
Yep, and I think that's that. That's as good of
a place as endy to stop. Less you have anything
else you want to make sure people know about about this. Yeah,
thank you so much for coming on the show. And
where can people find you in your work? Yeah, thank
you for having me.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I can primarily be found on blue Sky. That is
the main place I post now. Yeah, I'm at me
real Gene, bluesky dot social. Beyond that, you'll probably see
one of my articles published around because I am constantly
working my ass off.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
Yeah, so this is but it could happen here. Yeah,
I don't know. I mean, there's still time for this
not to happen here. So yeah, go go go organize
and go make West streeting and the BBC have a
bad day.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Hell yeah, it could happen Here is a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us
out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
You listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
You can now find sources for it could Happen here
listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening, Thanks for listening.
Call Zon Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey, this is me in the future. This is recorded
in the now halcyon days of January twenty twenty five.
Lots of things have changed. Basically everything everywhere has gotten worse.
This is the story about the oppression of Trends people
in the United Kingdom that is very bleak. In many ways,
United Kingdom has gotten worse since then. The UK Supreme
(00:28):
Court has ruled that the definition of sex and the
Equality Act of twenty ten is quote binary and is
decided by quote biological sex. So whatever the sex that
some fucking doctor assigns you at birth is your sex
specifically under the Equalities Act. A bunch of people in
the UK have decided that this means that the courts
have ruled that like sex in general means quote unquote
(00:51):
biological sex. That's actually not what they ruled, but they're
doing anyways. So there's been a whole bunch of things where,
for example, the Labor Party has started purging Trends women
from any like one of their bodies that's supposed to
be a woman's body. So through the oppression of trans
people continues to escalate. Yeah, our only path out is
(01:12):
just open and active resistance. Against them in a more
positive notes, Mira, our guest for this episode, has since
since this episode, has struck out on her own and
is now the mind and genius behind the outlet Free Radical.
She will link to here and you should go support
her work because it's great. Now to our episode, it's
(01:33):
it could happen here a podcast that is.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Largely about the US.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
That might that might exaggerate the ex sat to which
is about the US, but it is. Most episodes are
about the US, but sometimes it's about other places. And
one of the frequent places that it's about is the
United Kingdom, And specifically we're gonna talk about the United
Kingdom because the UK is both an image of the
present and the future of the oppression of trans people.
(01:59):
And there have been in a bunch of just absolutely
horrible things happening there that have gotten very little press attention.
And one of the one of those things is what
appears to be a like I guess I would call
it like a two stage cover up of a bunch
of suicides of trans kids on waiting list for healthcare.
And with me to talk about this fucking terrible shit
(02:22):
is Mira Lasine, who's a freelance trans journalist Miro. Welcome
to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Great to be here, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Yeah. So, I mean, God, this is one of those
I always am excited to talk to people, but I
swear to God, like one of the every four times
this happens, it's like a I have to pull it,
do you? I want to say, I'm excited to talk
to you about this because, like Jesus christis is the
most depressing shit I've seen in ages.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah, it's not a fun story. It's an important one,
probably one of the most important I've ever borded on,
but not remotely fun.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
So let's go back to the how I'll see in
days of mid twenty twenty four. I don't know, thanks
for she really bad then too, but they're worse now,
but they were.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Also bad then.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Yeah. So can you talk a bit about how this
story started and about what was going on with the
National Health Service, the NHS, which is the British basically
the British healthcare system is run out of National Health Service.
Can you talk about the whistleblowers there and what was
going on with them?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
So, yeah, I first became aware of whats going on independently,
I was working with Alejandra Carabio, the clinical instructor of
cyber Law Clanic at Harvard. She's a friend of mine
and we worked together on subjects. She and Ira and
(03:46):
almost some other people were talking about the horrific wait
lists going on with the NHS. It's terrible there, I
mean not even just for trance stuff, throwing millions of
reports of people having to wait months to get essential healthcare.
Some people have died just from like their conditions being
(04:09):
on the wait list. We had both stumbled upon some
old news reports from like years prior about trans kids
who had unfortunately committed suicide as a result of not
getting the essential health plague they need on the waitlist.
These stories are not talked about their media at all.
(04:30):
They got like one art mentioned ning what happened to them,
and then that was it. So we started to investigate it.
She was compiling a spreadsheet of everything she could find,
every news report of kids who experienced this. I was
pitching help and contribute to that spreadsheets. And then right
(04:50):
around the same time, the director then of the Good
Law Project, a civil rights organization that does a lot
of the stuff in the United Kingdom his name is
Jolyn Mongham apologized if I mispronounced that. He came out
with a Twitter thread revealing and this was very suddenly.
(05:11):
He hadn't contacted anyone about this. He just kind of
posted it right when he got enough of a story
and everything. He revealed that he was talking to a
couple of whistleblowers within the NHS about what was going down.
And not only did he talk to some whistleblowers, but
he also gained some independent evidence from himself his own investigation,
(05:36):
from meeting minutes from officials in the NHS, and so
what he found kind of began with the first whistle blower.
This one was someone who did not reveal much about
who they were publicly and presumably to protect your job.
But Logan said that with his whistleblowers, he independently confirmed
(05:59):
that they did worked for the NHS. He saw their
ideas Mohm's up typic guy to lie. He's a trusted
figure in the UK political scene. First one said that
there was only one reported suicide prior to twenty twenty.
Significance of twenty twenty in relation to Shrethelthcare at Nited
(06:21):
Kingdom was that the infamous case Bell versus Tatistock. I'm
not going to go into detail of this case because
it convoluted messy and hellish, but the gist of it
is that it led to tightened restrictions on gender perman
careacter miners, particularly in the new realm of puberty blockers.
(06:42):
This ruling ended up kind of restricting how might act
ass puberty walkers. Some it was a leader overturned, but
it already led to lasting damage. Even after it was overturned.
A lot of doctors for hensigent to even prescribed purbity
blockers because they were worried about political consequences. So a
lot of miners weren't getting the care they need.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, and we should also mention here too, because I
think this has been lost in a lot of the
reporting on this because like I mean, I guess this
is the story where a lot of the reporting was
done by trans people just because like nobody gives a shit.
But like, the thing about puberty blockers is that puberty
blockers with the healthcare of trans youth were always a
sort of compromise measure that was, you know, sort of
put in place as a compromise of like instead of
(07:23):
letting kids actually transition and like, you know, go on hormones,
which is, you know, the thing that kids like need,
right if your goal is to like improve the health
outcomes of trans kids, like the thing you actually want
for them, like maximally is for them to have the
ability to get gender affirming hormones. But you know, the
sort of the sort of compromised thing that was happenings like, well,
(07:44):
you could have puberty blockers, but you know, you can
start horp buns later, and that is not a good
compromise to begin with, but losing it is even worse
because the alternative to that is, like you are now
spending even more time with a bunch of fucking hormones
in your system that you don't want, more of, more
of the hormones that you fucking want, and you know
(08:04):
you're getting you're being forced to go through puberty, which
fucking sucks. Shit if you're going through I don't know,
I don't know if the wrong puberty is like the
correct language or whatever, but like it fucking sucks. It's awful.
And but now you know, and this is just something
that's happening in the US too. It's also happening in
the UK is that the compromised solutions are being knocked
(08:25):
out and we're seeing the sort of knock on effects
of these kids losing even the sort of compromise stuff
they're supposed to be getting.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yeah, and they used deep bogus justifications for this, or
like we don't see any benefits of puberty blockers, and
it's like, the point is not that they are benefiting
these kids directly. No kid is like, oh boy, I
get to be five years behind on puberty from my peers,
I get to look like a ten year old while
all my peers have full on beam everything. Oh boy.
(08:54):
Like no, but the point is that these kids are
being deprived of the care they absolutely need to stay
it live, and it's being targeted just for the sole
purpose of getting cheap politicals from what are the hells
in office? Yeah, but more back to the whistleblowers. So
(09:14):
prior to twenty twenty, when the Belvy Tavistock ruling came
into effect, only one transmitter died from suicide. I don't
quite remember how I framed the used estimated, but it
was broader than the one they used after. I believe
it was like seven years I think, and the years
after which was measured up to like the very beginning
(09:36):
of twenty twenty four, like Chaneu were twenty twenty four,
so not even four years, more like three years and
twne months. They recorded sixteen debts. Yeah, sixteen transgender minors
committed to suicide, and they were all able to be
linked to restrictions on computy quarters and NHS wave lists.
(10:02):
This whistle blower says this data came directly from a
doctor who analyzes just stuck professionally, is like part of
his job in the NHS. The doctor also wanted to
be anonymous, understandably, he named himself the quote named doctor
for Safeguarding should. He tried to warn people in the
NHS about this. He was like, hey, there's something wrong.
(10:24):
This isn't right. We are fucking up. And he talked
to so many different people, including doctor Hillary Cass, who
will talk a bit about later.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
This is a literary device called foreshadowy, ETCETERA giant clip
flashing big here, giant ominous music surrounding her name does
He just warned of.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
People basically, and they all ignored him. They all just
according to him. And this is all I have to say.
You know, this has not been verified in the court
of law or anything. This is according to the whistleblowers
in Mongham, but we have no reason to believe they
lied or fabricated this information about this was not even
(11:13):
revealed publicly. There's no public outcry. There was no action
taken by the NHS or any of the clinics. So
that is the first whistle blower and the whistleblower's connection
to that doctor. The second one basically can and gave
independent verification of this. They were like, yeah, I've seen
the data for myself too, I can confirm this is legitimate.
(11:36):
Now it wasn't just these three staff members who were
trying to raise a larm bells. According to the second
whistle blower, staff and the NHS were like, hey, well
this is not cool. We need to do something, and
so they got an open letter, sent it to their
higher ups and reportedly the director of the Tavistock Clinic,
which was at the time the only gender affirming care
(12:00):
clinics for minors in the entire United Kingdom. Since that
is more opened up, but it's a really complicated thing.
That's a headache to deal with. But head honchos at
Papa Stock completely retapliated. They threatened them a discipline interaction,
they suppressed maturial. They're basically were like, you go public
(12:20):
about this, if you continue talking about this, you're gonna
face consequences.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
The thing, the thing I instantly came to mind here,
and I think it's just specifically because of number sixteen,
but like the first time I read this, the first
thing that came to my mind was there, you know,
there's the sort of famous Chicago story of the police
killing of the Clint McDonald where the slogan afterwards was
sixteen shots and a cover up. And this is fucking
sixteen deaded to cover up. And the about a fucking
(12:48):
rage that I have for all for this, all of
this fucking shit, that these people covered this up, that
they knew this was happening, and we're just like and
not only knew this was happening and not only didn't
do anything about it, but like actively he contributed to
fucking making it worse by threatening anyone to try to
talk about it. Is just so unbelievably disgusting. Yeah, I
was the first one who broke the story. I basically
(13:11):
reported on it, like almost immediately after Malgam went public
about this, because I knew not many people were going
to report on this right away and it was going
to kind of be a headache.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I didn't know how you would, but I was the
first one to report on it. I did it for
jeuerlest Aaron read subsect Ara in the morning back in
June of last year, and I had to stop writing
it multiple times, like I spent the entire day thing
on it, because it was stomach wrenching reading some of
these stories and doing everything. The only reason I even
(13:44):
got through it was because I dissociated the entire time
and just kind of compartmentalized the anger of bunch Beta.
It's like Jesus Christ, this is horrifying. But Margin was
not talking out of his ass with this too. He
brought receipts right in the initial thread, showed leaked to
meeting minutes, and like you can see water marks from
(14:05):
the NHS on these meeting minutes. Like it is unless
someone wants to suggest that he did a giant conspiracy
and fabricated a bunch of very accurate meeting minutes that
reflect publicly available meeting minutes elsewhere, it's pretty reputable. Yeah,
these minutes show that any test officials were aware of
(14:26):
every single one of these debts, every single one of them.
People were in these meetings calling for an independent investigation
into each of these debts, into gender affirming care pro miners,
into restrictions. They wanted to investigate everything and had detailed data.
They had information on the type of care they received,
(14:49):
which was basically negligence, and instead of reporting on this publicly,
instead of doing an investigation, they covered this up. They
didn't do anything, and they just pretended like everything was fine,
like there was no debts as a result of this.
They were acting nothing wrong was going on. And these
(15:11):
meeting minutes are still public too. Magan is not believe in.
It's still on his Twitter account. Good Law Project is
not fully any more of the kind of dissolving their
stuff right now, but Magan is still keeping all information up.
It's all detailed, it's publicly there. People can see for
themselves these minutes, and it's horrifying seeing the physical proof.
(15:35):
It's yeah, it's horrifying.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Yeah, And we need to go to ads and when
we come back, we'll get to the second fucking cover up,
because there was a second one. Did it again? This
time with the British Broadcasting What the fuck does the
C stand for corporation? That one British broadcast in corporation
leading the charge and we are back. So let's talk
(16:07):
about the fucking second cover up because normally, normally you
only get one cover up when your fucking health care
policies kill a bunch of people, but no, two, they
got multiple cover ups. Before we get to the second
cover up, we need to talk about what the CAST
Report is, because that's also part of this that we
kind of bounced around a little bit but then didn't. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Well, yeah, so the CAST Report is probably one of
the worst things to come out at the anti trans
crowd in the past decade. Yeah. The gist of it
is it's essentially a supplusively independent report commissioned by the
Knighting government to investigate the efficacy of hubery blockers and
(16:49):
gender heerman character minors, authored by doctor Hillard Cass, who
they claim is an expert in this subject. I'll get
to that in the second. Yeah, the gist of what
it was claiming is that nope, puberty blockers do anything.
They actually hurt the kids, they don't improve mental health,
they don't protect anything. Suicides stay the same, it's all bad.
(17:11):
Get rid of them and actually restrict gender referman care too,
and also maybe we should detransition these kids too. It's
a very long document. It's actually a set of documents,
but the primary one isn't incredibly long. I remember when
it first it came out last year. It's been in
(17:34):
the works for the better part of the last decade,
most of the twenty ten's it's been in the works.
I don't remember the exact year that it was initially commissioned,
but it's been something the United Kingdom government has been
waiting on for a while to take action for gender
reforming care. Now, to understand the Cast report, you gotta
understand a little bit about Hillary Casts. Hillary cass is
(17:57):
not an expert in gender firming care form. She has
never treated a transgender patient in her professional practice whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Would thank god, because holy shit, Oh she is such
a transphob Oh my god. Yes, but yeah, also utterly unqualified.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Completely unqualified while she was writing it instead of talk
with single trans person as like part of the consulting,
because she didn't do it by herself. It's wait too
long for anyone to do buyers, but by themselves. She
got a bunch of unknown advisers to help her with this,
one of which is a Finnish psychiatrist who has been
(18:37):
campaign against transgender rights for the past twenty years. Yep,
but she did not have any trans people on the
consulting board, not a single one.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Well, of course, why would you talk to a transperson
about trans health care? Like, that's why would you. Trans
people don't know anything. They need to be regulated and
told exactly what's best for them by people who have
never even talked to them before. She actually, while she
was writing it, she talked to Florida healthcare officials during
(19:07):
the Ron DeSantis instration for information on what to do.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Like and these officials, by the way, they weren't just
like leftovers from the prior governor. They were appointed by
Ron de Santis and have literally been Jews bidding and
restricting healthcare.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Yeah, appointed by the guy who in the last campaign
cycle had to fucking add with a son and rat
in it. So like, you know the level of Nazi
we're dealing with here, huh.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And not only did she worked with them, but there's
even more. She worked with numerous people who were tied
to anti translate groups, most notable of which is the
quote Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine GOD. They are
probably one of the leading anti trans groups right now.
(20:02):
They are a Southern poverty law centered, desic hate group.
They're not very fun people. They all have a financial
interest in opposing transgender rights. Many of the people with
them have been quite paid to oppose transjunder rights in courts.
There's a whole rabbit hole to get into there. The
point being she's worked with hate groups, she's worked with
the Santa's appointees, she talked to no trans people, and
(20:27):
she of lied a lot. When the cast brew first
came out, I was one of the people who was
working around the clock to try to be like, hey,
let's not just assume that this is immediately accurate, because
we should wait for independent scholars to evaluate this. There's
a lot of shady stuff going on here, and why
didn't you know it? A lot of things were wrong
(20:49):
for starters. Ass misrepresented a lot of what she did
for the review. It was supposed to be a systematic
review into all the literature and PUBI blockers is she
left out a bunch of studies, especially more recent ones
with that are elogies. She and her method degrade them.
Basically changed it up last minute and didn't seek your
(21:10):
review for it from her institutions review the board, which
she didn't speak any ethical verification on anything.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Yeah, which which is which is amazing. It's like, do
you know how fucked your report has to be and
like your anti transferport has to be and not be
able to survive a British peer.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Review board, like Jesus Christ. It's like yeah, like it's
it gets even worse because as time went on, a
lot of journalists myself included, found a bunch of little
pact rolling out seats there. She was misrepresenting this study.
She was misterpreenting that study. Lots of little information. It
(21:49):
was she at one point fighted a YouTube channel that
is dedicated to opposing trans rate than be the YouTube
channel in her fucking seconds. It was a tangential citation,
but the point being the fact that she even discovered
that shows her allegiances. She was in the cast review.
(22:10):
She was trying to cast doubt on the leading medical
association for trans people, the war Professional Association for Transgender Health.
She was like, oh no, they're actually not good. They're
politically biased. I'm not though, don't worreayes. Don't investigate me.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
And in the time since, there's been a shitt ton
of medical experts coming forward opposing the CAST Review, being like, no,
the methodology is garbage. Not just journalists saying it. There
have quite littlely been hundreds of metabirds who have come
forward to publicly oppose the CAST Review. These are people
across a variety of fields, psychiatrists, pediatrician, chronologists, basically everyone
(22:51):
you could imagine who would be relevant to the study
of transcendor health and minors. They have come forward against it,
including most of the leading researchers in the field, including
people who have actually imporked with trans people in a
professional capacity.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Wow, and this review. It's the reason the United Kingdom
went on last year to ban puberty blockers in all
four countries within it. They started in England, then they
spread it out to Scotland, Wales with their beauty blocker ban,
and was recently right before New Year's they banned it
(23:31):
in Northern Ireland. And because of this, so many clinics
are now just not treating trans people, including transgender adults.
They're ing out transgender adults not getting the care they
need because of something to even discuss trans adults in
a meaningful capacity.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Yeah, And that's part of the thing with the Cash Review, right,
is that, like you know, it literally like it could
have just been like seven hundred pages of fuck you
over and over again and it would have had the
same effects, because the point of the Cast Review wasn't
actually to like establish anything medically. It was to just
have a document that you could point at and then
justify any policy whatsoever. Like it's it's kind of like
(24:10):
it's kind of like the way the Gambits and the
Bell Curve works were, like none of the actual policy
recommendations follow from any of the arguments that they're making,
but it exists so that you can make those policy
arguments and then point to like, oh, it's because of
IQ and this is this is the same like bullshit IQ,
like fake IQ science, right, Like there's.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Literally IQ science used to justify the puberty blocker band.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Of course there is.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
They are claiming that puberty blockers reduce IQ using a
study from like two thousand and one on one of
the and a separate study on shown my God, I
set the study on fucking sheep. How are you measuring
the IQ of sheep? Like what?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Yeah, okay, yeah, we wheeled in the sheep to do
the fucking Army Standard amplitude test.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Like, ah, it's scored real bad.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
Give it puberty blockers and it scored even worse.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
It gets garbage science.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, but one of the important things like inclusions here
is that, like so one of the one of the
sort of things that's happening now is that fucking feral
attack dog. I don't know, you fucking assuming you motherfucker.
We won the revolution each shit west Streeting who's now
running British Healthcare, issued a fucking thing to ban puberty
blockers for trans youth, you know, and he cites the
(25:26):
Cash Report. Do you know what's not in the Cash Report?
A recommendation to ban puberty blockers? Do you know these
fucking doing me anyways? Because that's the actual sort of
purpose of the report is to serve as sort of
like just a kind of like talasman you can hold
up and say, ha, see this is justified. Yeah, and
can you can you talk about the whistleblowers and the
Cash Report too, because this is the thing I has
(25:48):
seen very very little coverage. That is extremely important.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, so the whistle blowers, they literally reached out to
the Cast while she was bringing their she had to
be like, hey, restricting puberty blockers isn't good. And like
you said, Tass did not recommend to ban puberty blockers.
She called for more research into it and like some restrictions,
but not an outgrade band that was not anywhere within it.
(26:13):
Even with her extremism, she's like, maybe we shouldn't restrict
everything completely, you know, maybe we should just transition some
of the kids. But she did not advocate for a
full on ban, and she has even gone public into
the media to clarify that she has does not believe
in a full on ban. And yet she ignored the whistleblowers.
(26:37):
She ignored them when they came to her, being like, hey,
there's evidence that restricting pubery blockers is causing these depths
to wreck and she didn't do anything. We don't know
the specifics of that conversation. That's not public information. But
we read the cast review here not coming away with
it thinking, oh boy, she's really concerned about his towards
(27:00):
killing themselves. Yeah, you're coming away with it thinking she
doesn't believe as shit and she has her own agenda.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Yeah, and so okay, we're gonna take another ad break
and then we're going to get to the promise second
cover up, and we're back for cover up number two.
So okay, we have now introduced briefly the fucking spawn
(27:30):
of Satan himself, West Reading. Can you talk a little
bit more about him and the cover up that he
commissioned of this.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
So yeah, when I broke this story, it was getting
no coverage. No other news outlet wanted to touch it.
There were actually some journalists I talked to I'm not
going to name any names, but journalists I talk to
you who are trying to get their editors to publish
a story on these claims, and they were like, m
I don't think so, I think we're going to do that,
(28:00):
speculated and things like that, which people were actively shutting
it down, especially in the British media. Yeah, and for
about a month, the nhster was Nortonis and not getting
public comment, entered west streeting. You said, he is the
head of British healthcare officially, he is like fucking the
head of the Secretary of State for Help and Social Care.
(28:22):
Some shit like that. But he's a sellout. He's a
labor guy, you know, the party that's supposed to be
at least kind of left wing in some and he
threw trans people under the bus the first chance he got.
Right after Turf started pressing him for it. Wes Streeting,
in all his awful, awful glory, looked at Mugan's thread
(28:47):
and thought, what if I denied this? So he commissioned
Professor Lewis Albi for Appleby. He is a leading suicide
researcher he at the University of Manchester. Except even though
he's been in the field of suicide research for decades,
in the past year or so he's been cozying up
(29:08):
to a lot of antutrians people. Yeah, there's best shipped
ton of tweets of him basically talking to turfs repeating
the oh you can't have men and women's sports nonsense,
you can What does him going down the pipeline?
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah, he's just he's a turf. Yeah, like that's the.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, he's not the turf. He's a turf. Who I do?
It's not professionally really work with Transius commits suicide. He
does not discuss LGBTQ issues in his research as his
primary focus. He does it for the general population. Yeah,
I haven't reared every single study of his, so it's
probably as like one or two that talk about HBQ
(29:46):
suicide rates. But by no means is he like the
guy you go to to learn about why suicide attempts
and suicide rates are a thing in the LGBTQ population.
West Reading was like, hey, was do you want to
write a quote unquote debunking of Margam's dread? So enter,
(30:09):
I have it up right now. They quote review of
suicide from Gender dysphoriat the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation
Trust Independent report. This guy, you basically claim that, Nope,
there's no data for this. Actually, Mogham's wrong, That data
pans it out. The data doesn't lie.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
It's also funny because this argument is that trans people
were already killing themselves. Yeah, it was just like on them,
which is really fucking plaque when you think about it.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
But uh, now there's cripes a million breaks people can
have with this. For start, the data set is obviously
too small to analyze fucking statistically, makes no sense to
try to do a fucking indathatistical analysis on what maug
was cleaning with sixteen kids. That's not but you're not
going to get shit out of that. It's not really
(31:00):
a big issue with it. The big issue that Malgum
himself actually pointed out in the same day that this
came out, Logan pointed out that this analysis was just
long from the start for starters. This guy analyzed quote
current and former patients of under Identity Service. Malcolm's claims
(31:27):
weren't about that. Waldom's claims were about those who are
on the waiting list, which.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Is which which is just nuts. Like I s up
here for a second.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
It's like the difference between again on the waiting list
and have finished care Like what, yeah, what are we
doing here?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Like oh god, how did this get past any media outlet?
Speaker 4 (31:52):
I mean tree'sphobia but like really yeah, now there's other
problems with it, but what it's kind of suspicious.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
So apple Bye, Applebee however he pronounced his last name.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
He's going to call him Applebee's because fuck him Applebee's.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Fuck it. He used data directly provided by NHS Inngland. Now,
student viewers will notice something Magham never claimed to access
data directly given to them from NHS Inngland. He was
given data from whistleblowers. Logham actually in this direct because
he wrote a whole debunking this debunking, and Margan was like,
(32:32):
he revealed that he actually a month before this was published,
he reached out to NHS angling to be like, hey,
can I have your data on this subject. I've gotten
a lot of information I want to try to corroborate it.
They denied him the data. They just denied him it.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
Yeah, I remember incorrectly. Part of it was they claimed
the data didn't exist.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah, yeah, they claimed it didn't exist, that they just
didn't have it at all, and something they pulled that
up in air for little Applebee's. Well, there's some other
intrare inconsistencies. As we know, Logham had receipts he provided
information on minutes directly from NHS meetings discussing these suicides.
(33:16):
That the minutes don't match up to the data Applebee's,
as Applebee's is under estimating every then. And yeah, very
recently this has not gotten any media coverage at all.
Those who have been following UK politics for a while,
especially trans politics, remember the unfortunate case of Alice Lynn.
(33:37):
She was a young traentleman who committed suicide as of
NHS wait lists years ago. Her mother, er Littmann, has
been a staunch ally trans people since she's been one
of the fuses people in the UK to be like, hey, no,
I'm I'm putting my all behind trans people. She's wonderful.
(33:58):
She came out publicly for v Link that Alice Litman
was not included in Applebe's data set even though she
should have been. She was within yeah, the years. So
what this says is that Applebee's had bad data that
didn't include every kid.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Yeah. Well, here's the thing we don't know about that, right.
It's it's possible he had bad data. It's possible he's
also just been falsifying his data because like again, he
won't show it to us. So we have no fucking
idea what like was what he was actually provided with
and what he was like, you know, or what things
he did to the data sets that he was given
(34:39):
beforehand to produce what he's analyzing in his report.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
True, and there was of course a bunch of smaller
issues you could point out with Applebee's review, but the
crux of it it's bogus data is a matchup. As
you said, he could be falsifying it. He could have
just been given bad data. We don't know. He's not
sharing anything. The NHS is sharing anything. Yeah, but all
(35:02):
we know is that there's some major inconsistencies and they
they're not doing shit with it. And this is where
we enter everyone's favorite mainstream media, the lovely British media
specifically outlooks like the BBC right literally within the first
twenty four hours of this review coming out, they reported
(35:24):
on it. At this point, my coverage has been there
for a month. It Logam's claims have been out there
for a month. They weren't touched them. And yet the
moment someone came out with the nagest trying to be like,
actually it's false, they were rushing to report on it
something they claimed was not newsworthy previously. Yeah, and mind you,
(35:45):
Logan's rebuttal to this review was posted publicly at this time,
at the time that this media coverage was going up.
At the BBC article breaking the story up, the only
discussion they give to basically any issues with this. It's
(36:06):
just a couple of brief sentences talking about Mogam's issues
with it. At the beginning, they just claimed that Morgan
had profound difficulties. And at the very end of the article,
buried at the bottom, they gave Mogham like three sentences,
and they left out a lot of information, like the
minutes Mogham showed that he got from whistleblowers, the exact
(36:28):
claims he got from whistle blowers. They just didn't report
on it. They they gave such intense coverage to Applebee's
Applebee's claims in the review, and then they just flat
out ignored everything Mogham was saying, everything everyone else was doing.
Now again I add, sure, we don't know for sure
(36:50):
whether who's telling the trubery, but the NHS has an
incentive to lie here Mogham doesn't. Mogham is getting his
career torch basically because they're going forward about all this.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
And you can tell which side the BBC is on.
You know, they give the game away at the end
where they give the last word of this article to
Ken Barker, who is the chief executive the LGB Alliance,
which is an anti transait group, and you know, and
they give her the last sentence saying that trans people
are spreading misinformation to serve a dangerous and homophobic ideology.
(37:22):
And I like quite specifically, like Kate Barker, if you
ever fucking listen to this, fuck you eat shit like
this is direct evidence that of the BBC's fucking political
line here, because again they're they're they're giving the closing
statement to a group that is literally just an anti
transa group because the BBC is the institutional is institutional
fucking media arm of the British government, and the British
(37:44):
government is institutionally transphobic.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yeah, and I'm not going to say that what the
information right now, we have a definitives that's not the problem.
The problem is this of Ben being investigated. Any non
biased fucking NHS, any non biased British Yeah, would look
at Moggan's claims and think, oh wow, we should look
into this. We should independently verify. Yeah, we should try
(38:08):
to career operate everything saying or at least see if
he's accurate.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
Which which again and I want to put this out
this is the job of a journalist. The job of
a journalist is not to fucking literally reprint a press
report from fucking like commissioned by the fucking government. Your
job is to go find the fucking whistleblowers and talk
to people. Did the British Did the fucking BBC do this? No,
of course they didn't, because they're fucking pr hacks. Yep,
they're pr hacks for a transgendocide. And like quite frankly,
(38:33):
and I will say this on the fucking record, because
I'm not a journalist, fuck these people, like this is
this is This is what the BBC wants, like like
fucking dead trans kids and a cover up is what
they institutionally what this fucking organization wants because they fucking
hate trans people and they are completely okay with all
of this shit happening as long as long as they
fucking get to do another story about how fucking JK
(38:55):
Rowling is a brave truth teller or whatever like this,
this is what these people want.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
I agree, and I also agree with your statement. Uh,
the British media cannot call fuck themselves and I hope
they rob them. Hell yeah, I don't know how you
can as a journalist, someone trained to prioritize the truth
and nothing but the truth, look at all this and
think this is suspicious going on there there's nothing that
Lawrence further investigation, even if Malcolm's claims are false, right,
(39:23):
even if everything Malcolm says he made it up. He's
an influential guy. He has been covered by the media
for his lawsuits with the Good Law Project countless time before.
He's made national headlines there. And they don't investigate this
at all, Like, yeah, they're rushing to report on everything.
Fucking JK. Rowling says everything some random fucking turf is saying,
(39:45):
May Angelou, whoever turf you want to run?
Speaker 4 (39:48):
Oh yeah, I'm realizing there are people listening to this.
I don't know, maybe you'reself listening to the episode. You
don't know about the JK rolling turf stuff, but like
to get an understanding of like how vehement of like
an anti trans hate figure she is, Like anti trans
groups literally wear her face as a mask. Like I'm
not joking. She she she fucking retweeted them an anti
(40:10):
trans group literally wearing like printed out copies of her
face as a mask. Like that is that? That is
the status that she has in in in the anti
trans world, right, Like and then the BBC fucking loves
her so Africa she does, and she's not even an
expert in anything.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
She's a fucking author of children's books.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Like yeah, you know, it's like, well, we'll we'll talk
to the authors of Sheldon's books when we talk to
trans people, know, And I mean that's the ever thing
about this is like the BBC never talked to a transperson.
They did talk to an anti transcit group though, so
you know you you you know, you know what fucking
side of this is is considered valid by the British
political and media establishment. Oh and also at the bottom
(40:53):
and like, I know that they're doing this because this
is just like standard policy for like if you're doing
a thing story about suicide, but the very if the
article is a is a link to a bunch of
suicide and crisis hotlines. So uh, one last fuck you
to every trans person reading this. Yeah, the one two
punch of we quoted an anti trans hate figure, here's
(41:14):
a suicide hotline is like real.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Who, yeah, it's it's a it's a fucking insult.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
It Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
It just gets me how they didn't report on these
claims at all when they were initially made, Like it
didn't even have to be a big story like most
fucking outlets I've written for would have just reported as like,
oh this, this guy said this, were waiting more information,
okay whatever. It wouldn't be a good reporting, but it'd
be the bare minimum. They didn't even do that. They
rushed to just to repeat whatever the fuck. A commission
(41:45):
review from the government said that's more reputable, I guess
than you know, leading advocates who actually cited their sources
instead of just throwing shit at the wall.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
Yep, and I think that's that. That's as good of
a place as endy to stop. Less you have anything
else you want to make sure people know about about this. Yeah,
thank you so much for coming on the show. And
where can people find you in your work? Yeah, thank
you for having me.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I can primarily be found on blue Sky. That is
the main place I post now. Yeah, I'm at me
real Gene, bluesky dot social. Beyond that, you'll probably see
one of my articles published around because I am constantly
working my ass off.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
Yeah, so this is but it could happen here. Yeah,
I don't know. I mean, there's still time for this
not to happen here. So yeah, go go go organize
and go make West streeting and the BBC have a
bad day.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Hell yeah, it could happen Here is a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us
out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
You listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
You can now find sources for it could Happen here
listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening, Thanks for listening.
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Garrison Davis
James Stout
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