August 13, 2024 • 36 mins
James is joined by Mick (@twosoberpossum) to discuss the activists and community groups coming together to protect an endangered forest in the middle of Ghent, the third largest city in Belgium.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome to the podcast. It's be James and
today I am joined by Nick. Mike's been doing some
reporting on a forest occupation in Hint, which is a
place I used to live. Actually, Mick, would you like
to introduce yourself and sort of explain a little bit
about what you've been doing.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Of course, Hi, I'm Meck. I am incidentally reporting on
stuff and I thought this was a pretty neat thing
to report on that I think people should know more about,
and it's also kind of a fun thing.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So yeah, it's very accessible for people, Like if you
want to do like little forest occupying over the summer,
this is one that you can do pretty easily.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yeah, you can skip your European festival season and just
go help at a forest occupation, which is cheaper and
much more memorable.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah you can. God, they used to have one of
those near the little town I lived in when I
was racing in Belgium, and it was a scene.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Yeah, just lovely times.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, great times. We should maybe explain like a little
bit about Hunt as a city, because I think if
people have seen it or they've maybe visited, like they've
been to the middle of town, right, and they've they've
seen the castle and then the waterhouse bar or whatever,
and they've been one of those sugar noses, but like
they might not have seen the whole city. So, like,
can you sort of characterize the city.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Of course, it's very diverse in the sense that the
scenery changes a lot. You've got some of these like
really old buildings that are just like speaking to your imagination.
But then there's also almost like concrete deserts. Yeah, I
would almost call them where like the view on the
street is just an incredible amount of gray in varying colors.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah, thats it was a beautiful city.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I don't mean to thrash talk cantier at all, but
at times it's just really gray.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I've lots of memories of springtime in Flanders and
like gray sky and gray buildings and gray roads and yeah,
but also some very beautiful areas. So, yeah, what did
you where? You go ahead and explain to us a
little bit about this forest occupation.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Okay, it's an occupation that's happening to a little north
of the city center. In terms of forest occupations, it's
remarkably accessible. So it's called the Wombolhams Misson or Ponds
for you English speakers out there, and it's part of
an industrial area called the Dauci, which is located just
(02:26):
west of the canal the Lever, which connects the port
of Hnt, the third largest port in Belgium. The area
itself is about fourteen to fifteen hectares. I'm not sure
how to translate that to US numbers.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I'm sorry, Yeah, neither, my terribulated American doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
There's internet, yeah, and the arch area has largely been
left to its own for a pretty significant amount of
time past twenty years.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Now.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
There's two areas within the ponds, as I'm going to
call them, a northern part and a southern part, and
later down the line i'll explain why that is important
before I continue further on the highlight. I went there
mainly as a form of solidarity and support. I had
(03:15):
asked if people would be willing to talk to me
about in a journalistic or reporting capacity, and they agreed
to that. But I'm not a local, and I also
don't want to pretend I am, although any listener will
hear my accent and know that. So yeah, we'll be
mainly talking about the southern area, and there's destination plans
(03:36):
before this area. There's essentially two parties that are working
together to turn these green areas into the gray concrete
deserts that we just talked about. These parties are the
municipality of Kent and the Lane, a government organization that
handles public transport and Flanders. So over the years, there
have been several plans to build or develop the ponds,
(03:59):
but up until last week. We're recording this in the
week of August eighth, but up until last week, no
permits were issued to actually finalize or realize these plans.
The northern part was supposed to be turned into a
sort of training area for bus drivers, while the southern
part is intended to be a parking lot for public
transport buses. The activists currently residing in the forests are
(04:23):
by no means against the idea of public transport, but
do think that the destruction of this piece of nature
is counterproductive for both the locals and for climate change reasons.
There is enough concrete in the city already, and they
argue that alternative solutions have not been given the attention
they deserve.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, it seems like it wouldn't be hard to find,
Like I think, did they call it like a brown
field site, like a former industrial site or in that
area of Flanders to redevelop an old factory or a
warehouse complex or something. To do this rather than taking
one of the green spaces and destroying it and paving
get over.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
You know, I don't know what the municipality was thinking,
but I'm sure there is like barren areas elsewhere that
can just as easily be repurposed in a way that
doesn't like destroy nature. So the part that was most
surprising to me and at the same time not at all,
is how this is being played out politically. To give
(05:22):
everyone a quick timeline, about twenty years ago, the municipality
designated these two zones that I talked about as to
be used for common use. I'll remain not for those
speaking Dutch or Flemish.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Well.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
At the same time the ground was being bought by
the public transport company the lane plans for development started.
There is even like an unused tram bridge just outside
the green zone and the occupation. But for one reason
or another, the permit to build on the ground itself
had expired, during which time nature took it upon herself
(05:58):
to reclaim the area. Now, what I meant earlier is
this difference between the north and the south part. These
are separated by train tracks, making a very clear distinction
between the two areas. The land originally wanted to use
the north part to make a sort of training area,
as I just said, but these plans never materialized. At
(06:19):
the same time, about three years ago, another action group
prevented this destruction of the northern part. Now this is
where I find it really interesting. The terrain is still
owned by the lane and the municipality, but they intend
to give custody to a local environmental group called a
nativeunt but only if the plans for the southern part,
(06:42):
where there is an occupation right now, are completed.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Oh yes, yes, interesting.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah. While I was talking to my source, I was
reading between the lines there as a sort of an
attempt to play these multiple environmental organizations against each other,
a sort of divide and conquer.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
M Yeah, very new theory is.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
When I asked my.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Source about that, they said that it was up to
mediate whether or not I would call it that, but
that the existence of these plants is just the reality. Now,
I will not claim probably for legal reasons that there's
definitely some attempt to set these parties up against each other.
But from the information that I have, like if I
were a betting man, I know where i'd put my money.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, that's really interesting. So like not true to punt
is not present in the forest occupation on the southern side,
is that right?
Speaker 6 (07:36):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Not that I'm aware of, And so they'd stand to
like they'd gain custody of the northern side of the
people on the southern side failed exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, and how a fairy is exactly and if the
southern side now succeeds in preventing like the tearing down
of the trees, then the northern side could become you know,
threatened again, and then this whole circus starts all over again.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Right, Yes, both of them have the avested interest in
one of these Well, in theory, the municipality would maybe
would like them to think that both of them have
an interest in the paving over of one of these areas.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
But exactly, like someone has to lose in this equation.
And I find it interesting that that it's happening like this,
especially because Hans kind of promotes itself on these green
zones that are mixed throughout the city and that are
then again accessible for people by bike or through running
(08:32):
or walking. And then in that same breath there's also
still the oh yeah, one of these species of nature
we need to tear down because we need more concrete. Yeah,
those two views just don't align.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Right, And like we said, there's no shortage of Concretely,
this is a very sort of post industrial area. It's
not like this is like a public facing thing that
needs to be in one area to be accessible to people, right,
Like they could store their buses, train their buster, you know,
somewhere else in Flanders. It's it's not like it needs
to be right in town.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Now. I'm certain there are other areas where you could
just as easily make a parking lot for buses. Yeah,
as for like a training grounds, I'm not sure how
that would work. But then again, there I think there's
roads enough in the city for people to practice. Like
even like industrial areas tend not to have very much traffic,
(09:26):
so that could still work without having to like again
get rid of a piece of forest just so people
can drive around in buses. Yeah, but again, this is
not an argument against public transport.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
More in the like hypocrisy.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
And senselessness of the plants that are on the table
right now.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, and kind of trying to make people choose between
two things when they should be perfectly possible to have both.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Right exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I'm guessing it would also be more cost effective if
you take some other parts, because I'll dive into that later.
By there's also like pollution in these areas that needs
to be taken care of. So just from a cost
effective standpoint, I think there should be alternative options that
will keep everyone happier.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah. So, yeah, described to me your visit there, like,
describe how it was and what you winness there?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Okay, Well I went there at the end of July.
I stayed a few days and it was really weird
because you're coming from again a tram stop, then you
have to walk for a bit and all of the
sudden it's like you're in a forest.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
It was.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
It was really surreal almost to know that you're in
the middle of a big city but also have that
kind of like isolation from the sounds of traffic.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah. I mean that's lovely, right, It's nice that's that's
available at least for now.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Oh yeah, I understand one hundred percent why people want
to keep that green space close to their homes. Yeah,
So the ponds are a mix of terrain like there's
like water hungry like swampy areas when the ring has
been falling. There's lush grass fields with like little curvy
(11:10):
impromptu paths to take. And there's some parts where the
trees have been growing for long enough that people can
now build treehouses in them, which to me is quite
a good indicator that not much development or care has
been done in this strain. There's an absolutely insane amount
of BlackBerry bushes, much to mydy light. And yeah, it's
(11:32):
just for an area that is relatively small in the
bigger picture. It just surprised me how many different faces
it has. It was a delight to be there. Locals
tend to use the area for walks or picnics or
to take their dogs out. I've seen multiple people stopping
by just to pick the blackberries. The city itself calls
(11:54):
this entire area a green zone and a climate access
their words, can is done is trying to create like
a network of zones and roads that are accessible by car,
but not so much that there is a lot of
traffic on these roads, which makes them ideal for cycling, running, recreation,
or even transports if you would so choose. The website
(12:16):
of can itself promotes these areas is good for the
flora and fauna, for the environment, and subsequently for residents.
Then you need to be thinking of absorption of rain water,
or keeping local populations of animals and plants healthy, or
just the cooling effect that nature has.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, compared to black top.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Exactly like fully, concrete cities tend to like not really
release their warmth as quickly as nature does it. And
it was surprising because it was really hot when I
was there, but in the shade of the trees, it
was perfectly doable up until the point where you actually exercised,
and then suddenly it was less cool. But different story again.
(12:59):
The webs from the municipality itself acknowledges the importance of
the area for an endangered species of lizard and the
efforts that the city took to make sure that it
can still thrive there. More concretely, one person I spoke
to said that there are thirty nine protected species of
plants and animals living there, protected under both Flemish and
(13:21):
European law.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
So I'm not.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Really sure why that's discarded into the calculation. I'm not
a municipality person.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Also, I believe there have been sightings of foxes there,
mainly because we were told by the activists not to
eat the blackberries that are too close to the ground
due to the parasites that foxes may carry and can
subsequently like infect people with.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Oh wow, yeah interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
You know what else carries parasites, James?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Is it the goods and services that we rely on
to pay for this podcast?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
There's a fifty percent chance that these products and surfaces
will give you one or another incurable parasite.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Wonderful, and we're back. And you mentioned that there was
a problem with pollution in the wilderness space, you can explain,
like what kind of pollution then entails.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Of course, in the pasta has been like a pollution
of both the groundwater and the soil in and of itself.
That's not that remarkable. I've been told by someone that
Flanders has multiple spots where you can come into contact
with different forms of pollution. In the ponds. There is
both pollution in the soil and in the groundwater. The
(14:49):
soil itself contains asbestos, although it should be noted that
that is within like the acceptable regulatory norms. As a
refresher for listeners, Asbestos dangerizes mainly in the breaking or
fracturing of the material, and the fibers that release through
that process is what makes asbestos so hazardous. An effective
(15:10):
way to mitigate is to make sure that these fibers
do not get into the air, for which water tends
to work. Wonders so, at least in terms of asbestos,
it seems very simple and cost effective to just leave
it undisturbed, because it's already an area that likes to
swallow up water, which then will isolate the asbestos from
(15:31):
the air, and thus you make.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
It less harmful.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
The water is contaminated with vocis. That's an acronym for
a variety of volatile organic compounds with some chlorine attached
to it.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
I don't know. I'm not a chemist.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
These chemicals have several uses and applications in a variety
of industry. One of my sources told me that the
specific chemical is one point for dioxane, which is used
as a solvent. It's not the type of stuff you
want to drink or inhale, but serious exposure from contaminated
soil or water is pretty rare from what I've read.
(16:10):
As my source pointed out, the contaminants in the water
will overtime degrade organically, a process called phytoremediation, where the
presence of plants and microorganisms and fungi will degrade the
material and reduce the toxicity. While reading into this, I
found that the same is true to an extent for asbestos,
(16:30):
which can be a source of inorganic nutrients for these microorganisms.
So while you could point out that phytoremediation is a
longer process than sanitation, I personally think that it's just
common sense that letting nature do its work understirb might
be significantly cheaper and more sustainable compared to putting additional
(16:52):
chemicals and substances in the ground to neutralize these vocis.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Also just a fun little sideway.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Last year, but in order to monitor the area, the
line employed a concierge to walk the terrain on a
daily basis. I'm unsure if you can spot upcoming or
emerging contamination with the naked eye, but not my money
that they used to pay the guy.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
So this guy just his job was to walk around
the ponds.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah, pretty much. I'm told he had like a little
hut or a little shack from which he worked. The
guy was still working there at the time the activists
moved in, but the shack is gone, and so is
the concierge. I'm not sure about the details of what
happened there, but what I do find extremely funny is
(17:43):
that now officials and spokespersons from the development site are
claiming that the area is dangerous and that it is
for their own well being that the activists leave as
soon as possible, which doesn't really make sense to me. Like,
either this argument is like incredibly this genuinus or they
fucked over someone by paying them to take this incredibly
(18:04):
the risky job of walking over contabinated terrain.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, and not to mention like all the people who
they allowed toward their dogs and plick blackberries there and things.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Exactly if it was that dangerous that people should not
be there, then I'm fairly certain they could muster better
fences than they did at the moment. Like, I'm not
sure I'm offense economy in the broader sense, but there
should at least have been signs on the fences. Yeah,
and there were none, so yeah, we're getting to the
octupist groups. The group that is currently occupying the trees
(18:38):
is an assembly of people who care deeply about the
area itself. I spoke on the record with one of them,
and I would like to play this clip to let
them introduce themselves.
Speaker 5 (18:50):
I'm Elvid and one of the activists of the Wonder
Miss occupation which he occupied since the twentieth of June,
and we occupied this because it's endangered since the the land,
which is the public transports company in Flanders, wants to
destroy these fifteen hectares of nature for building a bus
(19:16):
depot to parking for buses.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Okay, do you want to tell us about what what
you you and the group of activisties have done here.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
So we live in the trees as much as possible,
and we we sleep there to make an eviction harder
and to have more power in our in our action
to like, it's way more difficult for them to get
us out if we are on height and use other
(19:48):
tactics to to block them. And they also cannot start
cutting trees when we are in the trees.
Speaker 6 (19:58):
Another trees is that for you it's intends.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Always an occupation, of course, but also places of very
very experiment with living together and where everyone is welcome.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
There are no door bells, no walls.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
Forests are very open place where everyone can just come
in and feel like they are welcome, and it's not
owned by someone.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
It's not.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's belonging to someone, which
you can easily have with the house, I think, but
here there's all the space to make stuff, to live,
to take time for yourself, which makes it very healthy,
I think, to live here by being in nature, people
are just more happy, I think in general than in
(20:54):
the city and in the house. And the area are
mainly building three houses. As you can hear, maybe.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Probably so as you've heard that was Arvid, one of
the activists that I spoke to. As you've also probably heard,
is that there is construction going on in the trees.
There's multiple tree houses there at the moment, and that's
where they sleep. When I spoke further to Arvid, he
(21:27):
made clear, like the demands that the activists have, which
is mainly that they don't want the needless destruction of
this area. There's intention is to remain in the trees
and make it hard, if not impossible, through the trees
to be felt. There are multiple tree houses with enough
stability and space for multiple people. On top of that,
they are preparing for a possible eviction, all while also
(21:49):
living happily and communally, like every night they cook together,
they're having dinner together. I found it incredibly healing and
wholesome to just have a meal around the small fire
with a group of like minded people, not hearing traffic
or other urban noises. A bright spot was one evening
where someone played a Dutch protest song and just on
(22:11):
the guitar satirizing an unnamed US president for his role
in the Vietnam War, which can't escape US politics even
in the middle of a forest. So then I would
like to play a second clip, And how do you
want to talk about how your relationship it is with
the neighbors around here?
Speaker 5 (22:33):
Yeah, the neighbors they started their own action committee for
more than three years ago, I think, and they have
already saved one piece of the Wildenhemson myths, which is
on the north part of the trainer. So this one
(22:54):
is no safe, it's only three hectors. But it was
also the learned to wanted to for it for making
I say, a place to practice to drive for the bush,
like a training ground for for bus strives exactly. So
just put concrete on this swampy area to them once
(23:17):
in a while drive for the bus there as if
there is no other concrete in the city to practice.
But this is now safety and now the neighbors are
also for this big piece of the whams meths are
now going to start a court case against the decision
because the Ministry of throughout the the Ministry of Environment,
(23:43):
they approved the permits for for the style plots for
the bust.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Okay, uh that was yesterday that that was announced. Uh,
how are you feeling? How are you feeling right now?
Do you have any plans on how to continue the
fight against the bulldozing of this place.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
Yeah, we are not surprised that she approved it was
we saw it coming a bit. But it's just very
ridiculous and we will keep fighting, of course, because this
is a very Hypocrates and saying that we have to
save that nature. But in the meantime she she proves
(24:27):
decisions to destroy them this kind of nature. So we
just continue to fight and the neighbors do it with
the court case, we keep where, we stay here, and
we we keep building and prepare for an eviction.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
That's really interesting. That diversity of taxes at cooperation, I
think is really valuable in these kind of struggles. Can
you explain a little bit more about that, like how
that works.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Well, I think it was just the stars that aligned
for this particular goal. There is a neighborhood committee that's
also heavily opposed to the destruction of this area, but
it's mainly a well, a neighborhood committee like these are
people who will stand up to like the municipality, but
(25:16):
entirely through the legal system or the judicial system. And
I think this committee was like at least a year
or two maybe even more old before the occupation happened.
And the occupation also happens separately from the committee, So
you kind of have this, you know, alliance now between
(25:38):
like a group of people who will take more direct
action against the plans to destroy the place and this
group who is going to do that by filing court
cases against the plans that the land and the municipality
are trying.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
To realize right now.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
It's really funny always because one of my sources said
the people who are occupied and the forest came down
like angels. The activists really don't like to be called that,
but it's sort of. Yeah, just they have a common
they have a common goal, and for that they're working together.
And from what I've seen, there is very warm and
friendly contact between the groups. I've seen multiple neighbors come
(26:18):
by with like food or building materials, like think of
screws or nails, or like wooden beams for construction. I
think there was one person who, like every Sunday brings pancakes.
I'm not sure if they still do that, but it's
pretty cool. Yeah, exactly. I've seen people come by and
drop off like bags of like dried beans and lentils.
(26:43):
I think it's really fascinating that how organically these two
groups sort of come together and in their common goal,
but also that the two different strategies kind of strengthen
each other.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right, Yeah, Like its obviously you've got people who wouldn't
think of occupying forests, but then they find themselves in
solidarity with the people who do. And I think that's
really cool that, like you said, there was no prior communication, right,
these folks just arrived began the occupation and the locals
will like, guess, this is exactly what we needed. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
In so far as I understood it, that's how it happened.
As I said earlier, like the combination of text tactics
just make their path towards their goal so much more tangible,
because by occupying the forests they can't start like early
construction in the area, or I know some municipalities or
(27:37):
cities kind of begin with the destruction prior to having permission.
But then it's like, oh, yeah, we've already started, so
it's of no use anymore. Which I'm not sure how
common it is in other countries, but I've heard of
that in a with an activist circles in the Netherlands,
and all the while is committed, he is like doing
(28:01):
the court cases and filing legal motions and yeah, I
think I think it's a really warm and friendly contact.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, that's what it's kind of nice to see exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Okay, I have one other clip.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
How does it make you feel that the neighbors are
so supportive? As you said, they're bringing food on a
regular basis. I've seen I think a few who brought
materials even like screws, or nails.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
What does that do with your morale or your motivation?
Speaker 6 (28:33):
Yeah, I think we wouldn't really be here if they
would be.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
Broad bus debuts, but of course they are not, because
it's just a very stupid idea to destroy this valuable
nature fruit.
Speaker 6 (28:52):
But yeah, we.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
We help each other a lot, and we yeah, we
keep each other strong but supporting each other. And they
were very moved by us being here, and they even
caught as they're angels, which you don't like to be caught.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, that's it, Okay, Yeah, is there anything else you
would like to share or to have on on the record.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Yeah, we would like to invite everyone to come here.
There's more inforant wonder misson that snow blocks dot org.
And yeah, there will still be the the whole court case,
or there was a chance we stay longer, but they
also have the legal.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
Right to to evicted, which would also be paying for it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
But yeah, obviously people, that is to show we'll be
familiar with the forest occupations in Atlanta. What's a state
response to this look like?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
For a long time, there has been very little state response.
While I was there, the permit to develop the area
was granted, but for the most part, there's occasional a
car that drives by. I did receive word that a
few days ago a few cops came onto the terrain
took pictures of everything, and the next morning there was a.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Drone flying over the camp.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Yes, so things are.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Like tensing up a bit and we'll have to see
how We'll have to see how it goes. Obviously, like
the case is still like in the judicial so we'll
have to see what comes from that. But up until now,
things have been quiet and peaceful.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Okay, Yeah, because I think people sometimes obviously make the
US really strive to lead the world in police violence,
but I think that those people underestimate the capacity of
European states for for state violent.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
That's definitely true.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Like our lack of guns makes it that not many
people are getting shot by police, but against activists or protests,
police can be pretty pretty violent. I don't have much
experience with Belgium police myself. I've heard conflicting stories about them.
I was at the May first celebration in Brussels, became
(31:35):
incredibly prepared and then it was all okay, literally nothing
noteworthy to mention. But then when I speak to other
people I hear like, oh, you know, Belgium police worse
than the Dutch. But then that very also varies from
city to city and that's a whole nother rabbit hole
to go down into.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
Yeah, so for now, not.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Much police action against the activists. Not sure if or
when that will change.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Right, So, if people wanted to if they said everyone
was welcome, yes, and I presume they can drop in
for the day, or they can go and stay over
a period, or they can, you know, commit staying until
the forest to say, is it easy to access? Can
you walk there? Could you like take I guess ironically
maybe could you take a bus?
Speaker 3 (32:23):
And there is a tram that stops pretty close by.
They have an Instagram account that I don't know from
the top of my head because I don't know use Instagram.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
We'll link in the notes.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
I think if you just search for like a womble
mesa or womblem meths and you'll find something. You can
contact them there and they can give you more details
on how exactly to get there. Yeah, you can come
by for a day, you can combine for two weeks,
that's up to you. You're welcome there. What I would
like to urge everyone is. If you plan on going there,
(32:57):
contact them about the supplies Neat when I arrived there,
I got some like some small kitchen knives and like
literally for cutting veggies, and some canned foods and some
first aid supplies because it is largely donation based what
they're doing there, So yeah, anything that you can spare
or can purchase for them would be greatly appreciated. To
(33:21):
check the website, check their Instagram. There might be a
Facebook page. I think there is a Facebook page for
those still using Facebook, So yeah, I would recommend it,
like go over there, help out. They're very friendly people
if you're interested in doing something like this. This is
like a very entry level thing.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, like you said, it's not just like a good
thing to do. It's also a nice fun thing to do.
Like it's these spaces could be really healing, just live
being among like minded people, like you said, in nature exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
And like when I was there, they gave like a
climbing workshop, so they taught me how I should climb
a tree with like gear around my waist and everything's cool. Yeah,
and follow the agreements that people make between each other.
Besides that, there's not really any rules. You're free to
come for a day, you're free to stay for two weeks.
(34:18):
That's entirely up to you. Just it's nice to help out,
and even if it's just help with cutting vegetables for dinner. Yeah,
that's already incredibly appreciated. And in the meantime people can
do other stuff that needs to happen around the camp.
And yeah, in terms of activism, this is a small
step to do, but it can also just be a
(34:38):
really good experience for years for you, and all the
while helping the locals and helping the activists, which is
the sort of mutual aid that I would prefer to
see a lot more. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, I think it's great that it's integrated with the community,
and I think it's great that it's accessible for people
and hopefully folks will go bring something dow need. It's
cool that they can, you know, share skills. I've learned
a lot in different activist spaces. I think that's really cool. Mick,
is is there anywhere that people can follow you if
they'd like to?
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yes, I have a Twitter account now because I don't
see enough horrible shit. It's at two Sober Possums or
under the name Mick Smith, M I c K s M.
I don't think I've posted anything yet, so I'll think
of something funny, but feel free to reach out there
if for reasons.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, I'm cool with that. Great, Well, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
There was.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I think that's really interesting. I hope people will go.
If you go, you know, send us a little message,
let us know how your experience was in the forest.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
I'd love that.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
It would make me happy.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Likewise, it could happen here as a production of cool
Zone Media. One more podcasts from the cool Zone Media.
Visit our website pool zonemedia dot com, or check us
out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or where you
listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could
happen here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.
(36:07):
Thanks for listening.
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome to the podcast. It's be James and
today I am joined by Nick. Mike's been doing some
reporting on a forest occupation in Hint, which is a
place I used to live. Actually, Mick, would you like
to introduce yourself and sort of explain a little bit
about what you've been doing.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Of course, Hi, I'm Meck. I am incidentally reporting on
stuff and I thought this was a pretty neat thing
to report on that I think people should know more about,
and it's also kind of a fun thing.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So yeah, it's very accessible for people, Like if you
want to do like little forest occupying over the summer,
this is one that you can do pretty easily.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Yeah, you can skip your European festival season and just
go help at a forest occupation, which is cheaper and
much more memorable.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah you can. God, they used to have one of
those near the little town I lived in when I
was racing in Belgium, and it was a scene.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Yeah, just lovely times.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, great times. We should maybe explain like a little
bit about Hunt as a city, because I think if
people have seen it or they've maybe visited, like they've
been to the middle of town, right, and they've they've
seen the castle and then the waterhouse bar or whatever,
and they've been one of those sugar noses, but like
they might not have seen the whole city. So, like,
can you sort of characterize the city.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Of course, it's very diverse in the sense that the
scenery changes a lot. You've got some of these like
really old buildings that are just like speaking to your imagination.
But then there's also almost like concrete deserts. Yeah, I
would almost call them where like the view on the
street is just an incredible amount of gray in varying colors.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah, thats it was a beautiful city.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I don't mean to thrash talk cantier at all, but
at times it's just really gray.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I've lots of memories of springtime in Flanders and
like gray sky and gray buildings and gray roads and yeah,
but also some very beautiful areas. So, yeah, what did
you where? You go ahead and explain to us a
little bit about this forest occupation.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Okay, it's an occupation that's happening to a little north
of the city center. In terms of forest occupations, it's
remarkably accessible. So it's called the Wombolhams Misson or Ponds
for you English speakers out there, and it's part of
an industrial area called the Dauci, which is located just
(02:26):
west of the canal the Lever, which connects the port
of Hnt, the third largest port in Belgium. The area
itself is about fourteen to fifteen hectares. I'm not sure
how to translate that to US numbers.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I'm sorry, Yeah, neither, my terribulated American doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
There's internet, yeah, and the arch area has largely been
left to its own for a pretty significant amount of
time past twenty years.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Now.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
There's two areas within the ponds, as I'm going to
call them, a northern part and a southern part, and
later down the line i'll explain why that is important
before I continue further on the highlight. I went there
mainly as a form of solidarity and support. I had
(03:15):
asked if people would be willing to talk to me
about in a journalistic or reporting capacity, and they agreed
to that. But I'm not a local, and I also
don't want to pretend I am, although any listener will
hear my accent and know that. So yeah, we'll be
mainly talking about the southern area, and there's destination plans
(03:36):
before this area. There's essentially two parties that are working
together to turn these green areas into the gray concrete
deserts that we just talked about. These parties are the
municipality of Kent and the Lane, a government organization that
handles public transport and Flanders. So over the years, there
have been several plans to build or develop the ponds,
(03:59):
but up until last week. We're recording this in the
week of August eighth, but up until last week, no
permits were issued to actually finalize or realize these plans.
The northern part was supposed to be turned into a
sort of training area for bus drivers, while the southern
part is intended to be a parking lot for public
transport buses. The activists currently residing in the forests are
(04:23):
by no means against the idea of public transport, but
do think that the destruction of this piece of nature
is counterproductive for both the locals and for climate change reasons.
There is enough concrete in the city already, and they
argue that alternative solutions have not been given the attention
they deserve.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, it seems like it wouldn't be hard to find,
Like I think, did they call it like a brown
field site, like a former industrial site or in that
area of Flanders to redevelop an old factory or a
warehouse complex or something. To do this rather than taking
one of the green spaces and destroying it and paving
get over.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
You know, I don't know what the municipality was thinking,
but I'm sure there is like barren areas elsewhere that
can just as easily be repurposed in a way that
doesn't like destroy nature. So the part that was most
surprising to me and at the same time not at all,
is how this is being played out politically. To give
(05:22):
everyone a quick timeline, about twenty years ago, the municipality
designated these two zones that I talked about as to
be used for common use. I'll remain not for those
speaking Dutch or Flemish.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Well.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
At the same time the ground was being bought by
the public transport company the lane plans for development started.
There is even like an unused tram bridge just outside
the green zone and the occupation. But for one reason
or another, the permit to build on the ground itself
had expired, during which time nature took it upon herself
(05:58):
to reclaim the area. Now, what I meant earlier is
this difference between the north and the south part. These
are separated by train tracks, making a very clear distinction
between the two areas. The land originally wanted to use
the north part to make a sort of training area,
as I just said, but these plans never materialized. At
(06:19):
the same time, about three years ago, another action group
prevented this destruction of the northern part. Now this is
where I find it really interesting. The terrain is still
owned by the lane and the municipality, but they intend
to give custody to a local environmental group called a
nativeunt but only if the plans for the southern part,
(06:42):
where there is an occupation right now, are completed.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Oh yes, yes, interesting.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah. While I was talking to my source, I was
reading between the lines there as a sort of an
attempt to play these multiple environmental organizations against each other,
a sort of divide and conquer.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
M Yeah, very new theory is.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
When I asked my.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Source about that, they said that it was up to
mediate whether or not I would call it that, but
that the existence of these plants is just the reality. Now,
I will not claim probably for legal reasons that there's
definitely some attempt to set these parties up against each other.
But from the information that I have, like if I
were a betting man, I know where i'd put my money.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, that's really interesting. So like not true to punt
is not present in the forest occupation on the southern side,
is that right?
Speaker 6 (07:36):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Not that I'm aware of, And so they'd stand to
like they'd gain custody of the northern side of the
people on the southern side failed exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, and how a fairy is exactly and if the
southern side now succeeds in preventing like the tearing down
of the trees, then the northern side could become you know,
threatened again, and then this whole circus starts all over again.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Right, Yes, both of them have the avested interest in
one of these Well, in theory, the municipality would maybe
would like them to think that both of them have
an interest in the paving over of one of these areas.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
But exactly, like someone has to lose in this equation.
And I find it interesting that that it's happening like this,
especially because Hans kind of promotes itself on these green
zones that are mixed throughout the city and that are
then again accessible for people by bike or through running
(08:32):
or walking. And then in that same breath there's also
still the oh yeah, one of these species of nature
we need to tear down because we need more concrete. Yeah,
those two views just don't align.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Right, And like we said, there's no shortage of Concretely,
this is a very sort of post industrial area. It's
not like this is like a public facing thing that
needs to be in one area to be accessible to people, right,
Like they could store their buses, train their buster, you know,
somewhere else in Flanders. It's it's not like it needs
to be right in town.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Now. I'm certain there are other areas where you could
just as easily make a parking lot for buses. Yeah,
as for like a training grounds, I'm not sure how
that would work. But then again, there I think there's
roads enough in the city for people to practice. Like
even like industrial areas tend not to have very much traffic,
(09:26):
so that could still work without having to like again
get rid of a piece of forest just so people
can drive around in buses. Yeah, but again, this is
not an argument against public transport.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
More in the like hypocrisy.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
And senselessness of the plants that are on the table
right now.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, and kind of trying to make people choose between
two things when they should be perfectly possible to have both.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Right exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I'm guessing it would also be more cost effective if
you take some other parts, because I'll dive into that later.
By there's also like pollution in these areas that needs
to be taken care of. So just from a cost
effective standpoint, I think there should be alternative options that
will keep everyone happier.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah. So, yeah, described to me your visit there, like,
describe how it was and what you winness there?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Okay, Well I went there at the end of July.
I stayed a few days and it was really weird
because you're coming from again a tram stop, then you
have to walk for a bit and all of the
sudden it's like you're in a forest.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
It was.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
It was really surreal almost to know that you're in
the middle of a big city but also have that
kind of like isolation from the sounds of traffic.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah. I mean that's lovely, right, It's nice that's that's
available at least for now.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Oh yeah, I understand one hundred percent why people want
to keep that green space close to their homes. Yeah,
So the ponds are a mix of terrain like there's
like water hungry like swampy areas when the ring has
been falling. There's lush grass fields with like little curvy
(11:10):
impromptu paths to take. And there's some parts where the
trees have been growing for long enough that people can
now build treehouses in them, which to me is quite
a good indicator that not much development or care has
been done in this strain. There's an absolutely insane amount
of BlackBerry bushes, much to mydy light. And yeah, it's
(11:32):
just for an area that is relatively small in the
bigger picture. It just surprised me how many different faces
it has. It was a delight to be there. Locals
tend to use the area for walks or picnics or
to take their dogs out. I've seen multiple people stopping
by just to pick the blackberries. The city itself calls
(11:54):
this entire area a green zone and a climate access
their words, can is done is trying to create like
a network of zones and roads that are accessible by car,
but not so much that there is a lot of
traffic on these roads, which makes them ideal for cycling, running, recreation,
or even transports if you would so choose. The website
(12:16):
of can itself promotes these areas is good for the
flora and fauna, for the environment, and subsequently for residents.
Then you need to be thinking of absorption of rain water,
or keeping local populations of animals and plants healthy, or
just the cooling effect that nature has.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, compared to black top.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Exactly like fully, concrete cities tend to like not really
release their warmth as quickly as nature does it. And
it was surprising because it was really hot when I
was there, but in the shade of the trees, it
was perfectly doable up until the point where you actually exercised,
and then suddenly it was less cool. But different story again.
(12:59):
The webs from the municipality itself acknowledges the importance of
the area for an endangered species of lizard and the
efforts that the city took to make sure that it
can still thrive there. More concretely, one person I spoke
to said that there are thirty nine protected species of
plants and animals living there, protected under both Flemish and
(13:21):
European law.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
So I'm not.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Really sure why that's discarded into the calculation. I'm not
a municipality person.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Also, I believe there have been sightings of foxes there,
mainly because we were told by the activists not to
eat the blackberries that are too close to the ground
due to the parasites that foxes may carry and can
subsequently like infect people with.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Oh wow, yeah interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
You know what else carries parasites, James?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Is it the goods and services that we rely on
to pay for this podcast?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
There's a fifty percent chance that these products and surfaces
will give you one or another incurable parasite.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Wonderful, and we're back. And you mentioned that there was
a problem with pollution in the wilderness space, you can explain,
like what kind of pollution then entails.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Of course, in the pasta has been like a pollution
of both the groundwater and the soil in and of itself.
That's not that remarkable. I've been told by someone that
Flanders has multiple spots where you can come into contact
with different forms of pollution. In the ponds. There is
both pollution in the soil and in the groundwater. The
(14:49):
soil itself contains asbestos, although it should be noted that
that is within like the acceptable regulatory norms. As a
refresher for listeners, Asbestos dangerizes mainly in the breaking or
fracturing of the material, and the fibers that release through
that process is what makes asbestos so hazardous. An effective
(15:10):
way to mitigate is to make sure that these fibers
do not get into the air, for which water tends
to work. Wonders so, at least in terms of asbestos,
it seems very simple and cost effective to just leave
it undisturbed, because it's already an area that likes to
swallow up water, which then will isolate the asbestos from
(15:31):
the air, and thus you make.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
It less harmful.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
The water is contaminated with vocis. That's an acronym for
a variety of volatile organic compounds with some chlorine attached
to it.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
I don't know. I'm not a chemist.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
These chemicals have several uses and applications in a variety
of industry. One of my sources told me that the
specific chemical is one point for dioxane, which is used
as a solvent. It's not the type of stuff you
want to drink or inhale, but serious exposure from contaminated
soil or water is pretty rare from what I've read.
(16:10):
As my source pointed out, the contaminants in the water
will overtime degrade organically, a process called phytoremediation, where the
presence of plants and microorganisms and fungi will degrade the
material and reduce the toxicity. While reading into this, I
found that the same is true to an extent for asbestos,
(16:30):
which can be a source of inorganic nutrients for these microorganisms.
So while you could point out that phytoremediation is a
longer process than sanitation, I personally think that it's just
common sense that letting nature do its work understirb might
be significantly cheaper and more sustainable compared to putting additional
(16:52):
chemicals and substances in the ground to neutralize these vocis.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Also just a fun little sideway.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Last year, but in order to monitor the area, the
line employed a concierge to walk the terrain on a
daily basis. I'm unsure if you can spot upcoming or
emerging contamination with the naked eye, but not my money
that they used to pay the guy.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
So this guy just his job was to walk around
the ponds.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah, pretty much. I'm told he had like a little
hut or a little shack from which he worked. The
guy was still working there at the time the activists
moved in, but the shack is gone, and so is
the concierge. I'm not sure about the details of what
happened there, but what I do find extremely funny is
(17:43):
that now officials and spokespersons from the development site are
claiming that the area is dangerous and that it is
for their own well being that the activists leave as
soon as possible, which doesn't really make sense to me. Like,
either this argument is like incredibly this genuinus or they
fucked over someone by paying them to take this incredibly
(18:04):
the risky job of walking over contabinated terrain.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, and not to mention like all the people who
they allowed toward their dogs and plick blackberries there and things.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Exactly if it was that dangerous that people should not
be there, then I'm fairly certain they could muster better
fences than they did at the moment. Like, I'm not
sure I'm offense economy in the broader sense, but there
should at least have been signs on the fences. Yeah,
and there were none, so yeah, we're getting to the
octupist groups. The group that is currently occupying the trees
(18:38):
is an assembly of people who care deeply about the
area itself. I spoke on the record with one of them,
and I would like to play this clip to let
them introduce themselves.
Speaker 5 (18:50):
I'm Elvid and one of the activists of the Wonder
Miss occupation which he occupied since the twentieth of June,
and we occupied this because it's endangered since the the land,
which is the public transports company in Flanders, wants to
destroy these fifteen hectares of nature for building a bus
(19:16):
depot to parking for buses.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Okay, do you want to tell us about what what
you you and the group of activisties have done here.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
So we live in the trees as much as possible,
and we we sleep there to make an eviction harder
and to have more power in our in our action
to like, it's way more difficult for them to get
us out if we are on height and use other
(19:48):
tactics to to block them. And they also cannot start
cutting trees when we are in the trees.
Speaker 6 (19:58):
Another trees is that for you it's intends.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Always an occupation, of course, but also places of very
very experiment with living together and where everyone is welcome.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
There are no door bells, no walls.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
Forests are very open place where everyone can just come
in and feel like they are welcome, and it's not
owned by someone.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
It's not.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's belonging to someone, which
you can easily have with the house, I think, but
here there's all the space to make stuff, to live,
to take time for yourself, which makes it very healthy,
I think, to live here by being in nature, people
are just more happy, I think in general than in
(20:54):
the city and in the house. And the area are
mainly building three houses. As you can hear, maybe.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Probably so as you've heard that was Arvid, one of
the activists that I spoke to. As you've also probably heard,
is that there is construction going on in the trees.
There's multiple tree houses there at the moment, and that's
where they sleep. When I spoke further to Arvid, he
(21:27):
made clear, like the demands that the activists have, which
is mainly that they don't want the needless destruction of
this area. There's intention is to remain in the trees
and make it hard, if not impossible, through the trees
to be felt. There are multiple tree houses with enough
stability and space for multiple people. On top of that,
they are preparing for a possible eviction, all while also
(21:49):
living happily and communally, like every night they cook together,
they're having dinner together. I found it incredibly healing and
wholesome to just have a meal around the small fire
with a group of like minded people, not hearing traffic
or other urban noises. A bright spot was one evening
where someone played a Dutch protest song and just on
(22:11):
the guitar satirizing an unnamed US president for his role
in the Vietnam War, which can't escape US politics even
in the middle of a forest. So then I would
like to play a second clip, And how do you
want to talk about how your relationship it is with
the neighbors around here?
Speaker 5 (22:33):
Yeah, the neighbors they started their own action committee for
more than three years ago, I think, and they have
already saved one piece of the Wildenhemson myths, which is
on the north part of the trainer. So this one
(22:54):
is no safe, it's only three hectors. But it was
also the learned to wanted to for it for making
I say, a place to practice to drive for the bush,
like a training ground for for bus strives exactly. So
just put concrete on this swampy area to them once
(23:17):
in a while drive for the bus there as if
there is no other concrete in the city to practice.
But this is now safety and now the neighbors are
also for this big piece of the whams meths are
now going to start a court case against the decision
because the Ministry of throughout the the Ministry of Environment,
(23:43):
they approved the permits for for the style plots for
the bust.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Okay, uh that was yesterday that that was announced. Uh,
how are you feeling? How are you feeling right now?
Do you have any plans on how to continue the
fight against the bulldozing of this place.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
Yeah, we are not surprised that she approved it was
we saw it coming a bit. But it's just very
ridiculous and we will keep fighting, of course, because this
is a very Hypocrates and saying that we have to
save that nature. But in the meantime she she proves
(24:27):
decisions to destroy them this kind of nature. So we
just continue to fight and the neighbors do it with
the court case, we keep where, we stay here, and
we we keep building and prepare for an eviction.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
That's really interesting. That diversity of taxes at cooperation, I
think is really valuable in these kind of struggles. Can
you explain a little bit more about that, like how
that works.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Well, I think it was just the stars that aligned
for this particular goal. There is a neighborhood committee that's
also heavily opposed to the destruction of this area, but
it's mainly a well, a neighborhood committee like these are
people who will stand up to like the municipality, but
(25:16):
entirely through the legal system or the judicial system. And
I think this committee was like at least a year
or two maybe even more old before the occupation happened.
And the occupation also happens separately from the committee, So
you kind of have this, you know, alliance now between
(25:38):
like a group of people who will take more direct
action against the plans to destroy the place and this
group who is going to do that by filing court
cases against the plans that the land and the municipality
are trying.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
To realize right now.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
It's really funny always because one of my sources said
the people who are occupied and the forest came down
like angels. The activists really don't like to be called that,
but it's sort of. Yeah, just they have a common
they have a common goal, and for that they're working together.
And from what I've seen, there is very warm and
friendly contact between the groups. I've seen multiple neighbors come
(26:18):
by with like food or building materials, like think of
screws or nails, or like wooden beams for construction. I
think there was one person who, like every Sunday brings pancakes.
I'm not sure if they still do that, but it's
pretty cool. Yeah, exactly. I've seen people come by and
drop off like bags of like dried beans and lentils.
(26:43):
I think it's really fascinating that how organically these two
groups sort of come together and in their common goal,
but also that the two different strategies kind of strengthen
each other.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right, Yeah, Like its obviously you've got people who wouldn't
think of occupying forests, but then they find themselves in
solidarity with the people who do. And I think that's
really cool that, like you said, there was no prior communication, right,
these folks just arrived began the occupation and the locals
will like, guess, this is exactly what we needed. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
In so far as I understood it, that's how it happened.
As I said earlier, like the combination of text tactics
just make their path towards their goal so much more tangible,
because by occupying the forests they can't start like early
construction in the area, or I know some municipalities or
(27:37):
cities kind of begin with the destruction prior to having permission.
But then it's like, oh, yeah, we've already started, so
it's of no use anymore. Which I'm not sure how
common it is in other countries, but I've heard of
that in a with an activist circles in the Netherlands,
and all the while is committed, he is like doing
(28:01):
the court cases and filing legal motions and yeah, I
think I think it's a really warm and friendly contact.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, that's what it's kind of nice to see exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Okay, I have one other clip.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
How does it make you feel that the neighbors are
so supportive? As you said, they're bringing food on a
regular basis. I've seen I think a few who brought
materials even like screws, or nails.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
What does that do with your morale or your motivation?
Speaker 6 (28:33):
Yeah, I think we wouldn't really be here if they
would be.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
Broad bus debuts, but of course they are not, because
it's just a very stupid idea to destroy this valuable
nature fruit.
Speaker 6 (28:52):
But yeah, we.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
We help each other a lot, and we yeah, we
keep each other strong but supporting each other. And they
were very moved by us being here, and they even
caught as they're angels, which you don't like to be caught.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, that's it, Okay, Yeah, is there anything else you
would like to share or to have on on the record.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Yeah, we would like to invite everyone to come here.
There's more inforant wonder misson that snow blocks dot org.
And yeah, there will still be the the whole court case,
or there was a chance we stay longer, but they
also have the legal.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
Right to to evicted, which would also be paying for it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
But yeah, obviously people, that is to show we'll be
familiar with the forest occupations in Atlanta. What's a state
response to this look like?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
For a long time, there has been very little state response.
While I was there, the permit to develop the area
was granted, but for the most part, there's occasional a
car that drives by. I did receive word that a
few days ago a few cops came onto the terrain
took pictures of everything, and the next morning there was a.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Drone flying over the camp.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Yes, so things are.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Like tensing up a bit and we'll have to see
how We'll have to see how it goes. Obviously, like
the case is still like in the judicial so we'll
have to see what comes from that. But up until now,
things have been quiet and peaceful.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Okay, Yeah, because I think people sometimes obviously make the
US really strive to lead the world in police violence,
but I think that those people underestimate the capacity of
European states for for state violent.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
That's definitely true.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Like our lack of guns makes it that not many
people are getting shot by police, but against activists or protests,
police can be pretty pretty violent. I don't have much
experience with Belgium police myself. I've heard conflicting stories about them.
I was at the May first celebration in Brussels, became
(31:35):
incredibly prepared and then it was all okay, literally nothing
noteworthy to mention. But then when I speak to other
people I hear like, oh, you know, Belgium police worse
than the Dutch. But then that very also varies from
city to city and that's a whole nother rabbit hole
to go down into.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
Yeah, so for now, not.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Much police action against the activists. Not sure if or
when that will change.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Right, So, if people wanted to if they said everyone
was welcome, yes, and I presume they can drop in
for the day, or they can go and stay over
a period, or they can, you know, commit staying until
the forest to say, is it easy to access? Can
you walk there? Could you like take I guess ironically
maybe could you take a bus?
Speaker 3 (32:23):
And there is a tram that stops pretty close by.
They have an Instagram account that I don't know from
the top of my head because I don't know use Instagram.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
We'll link in the notes.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
I think if you just search for like a womble
mesa or womblem meths and you'll find something. You can
contact them there and they can give you more details
on how exactly to get there. Yeah, you can come
by for a day, you can combine for two weeks,
that's up to you. You're welcome there. What I would
like to urge everyone is. If you plan on going there,
(32:57):
contact them about the supplies Neat when I arrived there,
I got some like some small kitchen knives and like
literally for cutting veggies, and some canned foods and some
first aid supplies because it is largely donation based what
they're doing there, So yeah, anything that you can spare
or can purchase for them would be greatly appreciated. To
(33:21):
check the website, check their Instagram. There might be a
Facebook page. I think there is a Facebook page for
those still using Facebook, So yeah, I would recommend it,
like go over there, help out. They're very friendly people
if you're interested in doing something like this. This is
like a very entry level thing.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, like you said, it's not just like a good
thing to do. It's also a nice fun thing to do.
Like it's these spaces could be really healing, just live
being among like minded people, like you said, in nature exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
And like when I was there, they gave like a
climbing workshop, so they taught me how I should climb
a tree with like gear around my waist and everything's cool. Yeah,
and follow the agreements that people make between each other.
Besides that, there's not really any rules. You're free to
come for a day, you're free to stay for two weeks.
(34:18):
That's entirely up to you. Just it's nice to help out,
and even if it's just help with cutting vegetables for dinner. Yeah,
that's already incredibly appreciated. And in the meantime people can
do other stuff that needs to happen around the camp.
And yeah, in terms of activism, this is a small
step to do, but it can also just be a
(34:38):
really good experience for years for you, and all the
while helping the locals and helping the activists, which is
the sort of mutual aid that I would prefer to
see a lot more. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, I think it's great that it's integrated with the community,
and I think it's great that it's accessible for people
and hopefully folks will go bring something dow need. It's
cool that they can, you know, share skills. I've learned
a lot in different activist spaces. I think that's really cool. Mick,
is is there anywhere that people can follow you if
they'd like to?
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yes, I have a Twitter account now because I don't
see enough horrible shit. It's at two Sober Possums or
under the name Mick Smith, M I c K s M.
I don't think I've posted anything yet, so I'll think
of something funny, but feel free to reach out there
if for reasons.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, I'm cool with that. Great, Well, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
There was.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I think that's really interesting. I hope people will go.
If you go, you know, send us a little message,
let us know how your experience was in the forest.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
I'd love that.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
It would make me happy.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Likewise, it could happen here as a production of cool
Zone Media. One more podcasts from the cool Zone Media.
Visit our website pool zonemedia dot com, or check us
out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or where you
listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could
happen here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.
(36:07):
Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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