November 11, 2025 • 37 mins
James and Gare discuss Utah Senator Mike Lee’s latest attempt to erode protections on wilderness in the USA.
Sources:
https://twitter.com/BasedMikeLee
https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/mike-lee/summary?cid=N00031696
https://www.energy.senate.gov/services/files/0DED04C4-18C7-4C1F-BCE4-DD5B79FB0264
https://www.jstor.org/stable/14646
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media. Hello everyone to welcome to if it can
happen here a podcast where I have just been attacked
for my identity as a British person by my colleague
Garrison Davis.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I gere it's going to happen again. Really, I never
This podcast is not a safe space.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Not for British people. Sadly, many many such places for us,
including Britain, which is a country which is not doing
so well right now. The Britain is still very safe.
I don't want to talk about Britain today. I do, incidentally,
I guess because I grew up in a country that
has virtually no fucking public land I mean in the commons.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yes, actually kind of topical.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, it is. That is a question that actually, and
so earlier this year in September, I was staying with
which in people who are indigenous to the Northern Alaskan,
Interior Arctic and Subarctic, and one of them was like, hey,
how did you guys get so dislocated from your lands?
One of my friends who I was talking to, and
it was a really interesting question for you, right because
(01:08):
they have lived on that same land for as long
as human beings have existed in the Americas the twenty
five thousand years something like that. Like, the answer is
the enclosure of the commons, right, the answer is like
proto capitalism is what removed folks like me from the
land and identifying in a way that those people identify
(01:29):
with the land. But in the United States, we do
have a little bit or quite a lot actually of
public land, right, various different types of public land, various
different land protections that anyone can go to where you
don't have to be in America or a citizen. Anyone
can go to public lands and enjoy them. Unfortunately, Utah
(01:52):
Senator quote unquote based Mike Lee is once again attempting
to weaken protections on wilderness, which will render some of
the small parts of the USA they have not been
fundamentally damaged by capitalism, permanently and irrevocably changed. Are you
familiar with Mike Lee.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, he's the senator from Utah, the senator from Utah. Yeah,
and he's based as you have said, Yes, he's based.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
He's a hashtag poster.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
He's a poster. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
He operates a Twitter account which some might deem as
offensive and tweets about current current events in a very
provocative way. Yeah, usually in line with some kind of
partisan sentiments.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, that's pretty fair.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Specifically, following the assassination of Melissa Hortman and her husband,
made a series of tweets that were I guess, kind
of insensitive, if not actually if not laying blame at
the governor of Minnesota in this kind of ironic joking
way where you have plausible deniability, but in general handled
(02:58):
that situation very grossly. And I think that that's what
most people might know his tweets for. But he's very active,
He's he's tweets about many things, many a thing.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, yeah, if he thinks that, he posts it. But yeah, yeah,
most people will know him as a guy who made
the extremely poor taste posts following those.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Murders nightmare on walls the street.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, just nothing to be posting when some people have
been murdered.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I think in general, when people are murdered, I think
we as humans should should post.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
The last Yeah yeah, right, if somebody has died, like,
just don't post, you know, maybe not to say this
is terrible, so your condolences or whatever, but realistically their
family aren't looking on on Twitter dot com to see
you who who's sending their condolences. But the sure as
funk we'll find out if you try and make a
funny about it. So to just don't just resist urge
(03:51):
to post another urge that Mike Lee sadly have is
I don't like that at all.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, we're talking about Mike Lee's urgents.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Okay, it's in the broadcastable space. Mike Lee has the
urge to sell off public land. He has tried twice
this year. We spoke about this a little bit on
ed right, we talked about it in the context of
the Big Beautiful Bill or the One Big Beautiful Bill Act.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, he did try that like half a year ago.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yes he did. Well, Garrison, I regret to inform you
that Mike Lee is back somehow.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Mike Lee has returned.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, and this time he has got a new thing.
So last time, if you remember, he talked about selling
off the public land to make affordable housing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Sure, sure, yeah, not going to look into this any further.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
And that was exactly what he was relying on. That
no one gave a shit about the millions of acres
that we all get access to, and they would just
trust him on that one.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Based Mike Lee and his abundance exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's him and there's o run shaking hands when it
comes to affordable housing, but something they care about very much,
I'm sure, something that Mike Lee has campaigned on for years.
He did not stick Landing on that because people read
the proposal and they noticed that it was going to
do nothing for housing affordability whatsoever. If it did create
any housing at all, it was going to be like
(05:21):
super rich people's McMansions. You know, this was not going
to do anything to move the needlearn affordable housing in
the US. This time, he has found a cause which
receives even less scrutiny. Can you guess what it is, Garrison.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Ah, for why we need to sell the public lands. Yes,
I'm trying to not just look ahead on your script.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, there is a document in front of you which,
as he asked, it, so close your eyes. I feel
like there's like two or three things in the US
where everyone just seems to turn a blind eye to,
like I.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Mean, this is it for like is it for like
developing land for like oil data centers?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Uh, that probably is what's happening. But he's he's smart
enough not to say that, right.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Super Gold magic card as in the as in the
film Eddington. I mean, I would guess the data centers,
but that that's that I could be wrong.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's border security. Oh great, of course, right. You could
have said anti terrorism and probably got there to you.
But no, it is. It is securing US southern well
all aboarders, actually southern border, northern border, Eastern and western
maritime borders. Obviously they're they're looking to prevent any more
(06:43):
people coming in from Canada. Was not a border stick
that that is correct? That borders because literally, so you
go to search something.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Full off the map of the United States, I was like,
I don't think you. Maybe I'm misremembering, but you does
not a border state.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Is absolutely not a border state.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Gas.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
It's actually not.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
A border state. It is above Arizona, which.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Is yeah, so that is perhaps what's going on here.
Mike Lee has found a way to sell off public
lands without selling off U to ohur public lands. Oh
in this case, not really sell off, but destroy and
degrade in a way which is very clearly going to
lead to commercial exploitation. Right, what Lee proposes, what Lee's
(07:28):
bill has a bunch of cosponsors. I believe the only
border State Senator co sponsoring it is head cruise that
makes sense, big public lands, respector. But Lee's bill would
allow the Department of Homeland Security to quote inventory illegal
roads and trails on public land within one hundred miles
of the border and then convert them into navigable roads.
(07:51):
That that is the part that makes no sense, right,
Like when you look at Lee's statements, and I will
read one of Lee's statements here. So this is a
statement on the Senate Energy Committee web page where they
talk about Energy Natural Resources Committee. His quote from Mike
Lee explaining his bill quote, Biden's open border chaos is
(08:16):
destroying America's crown duels. I'm going to pause here to
note this. According to my watch, we're at November seventh,
twenty twenty five, while your watches rog Yeah, we are
once again asking the most important question of our time.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
It was President who is He used the president tense.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
It didn't It's not even like talking about twenty twenty
and pretending that Trump was a president. He's doing it.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Right now that the art Quorterer policies are destroying our
natural airs.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, we were a year after the election. You've had
time to come to terms with this. You can't just
keep pointing at Joe, but apparently I guess you can.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
They're going to keep doing that for three more years
until there's a new guy.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah. Yeah, So let's go on with Chairman Lee, his
chairman of this Senate Energy Natural Resources Committee. Right, Families
who want to enjoy a safe hike or camp out
are instead finding trash piles, burned landscapes, and trails closed
because rangers are stuck cleaning up the fallout. Cartels are
exploiting the disorder, using these lands as cover for their operations.
(09:31):
This bill gives land managers and border agents tools to
restore order and protect these places for the people they
were meant to serve. He's doing the thing where he
says one thing and then his build does something completely different. Yeah,
what he is saying is, on the face of it,
somewhat ridiculous. But what he's claiming he's going to do
is protect these lands. Right. What the bill allows them
(09:53):
to do is to find roads that are not permitted
and turn them into navigable roads.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So just actually pave roads, yes, in the protected wildlife in.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
The Yeah, well crucially in wilderness areas. Right. So the
nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act does not allow for there
to be any mechanized access. Lee's bill proposes not just
to amend the Wilderness Act for within one hundred miles
of the border, but to amend it entirely to allow
(10:24):
for the construction of roads.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So that they can police the public lands better. That's
that's what he's saying.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, right, Well, he's one of his claims is for
search and rescue, and that there are already exemptions that
allow for mechanize search and rescue access, right, like things
like helicopters, right, helicopters. Yeah, if you get and even
like you get like motorized gurneys, you can use thesar
things like that, right, like the even ATVs. Right, there's
a threat to human lives.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
A Toyota tacoma.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, I mean you'd struggle in most wilderness lands with
the Tacoma, but yeah, you could. You could give it
a college try. But it's ludicrous. He hasn't even made
an effort to join the dots, you know. It also
calls for fire mitigation by clearing fuels and building fire breaks,
and includes a provision that would quote address invasive or
(11:14):
non native species.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
In the wilderness area.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, like, what are you going to go in there
and round us?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Everyone's planting and spreading invasive species.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, I mean, of course they are invasive species right late,
Like if you go to parts of where I live,
like you'll see mustard, which is not an indigenous species
because the climate's changing and people move around the world,
and like, lots and lots of animals that weren't like
here twenty thousand years ago are here now.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I mean, you can make an argument for managing these areas.
I don't think he's coming at this from an environmental
conservation standpoint.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah. I don't know what the non native species thing
is about other than like just like nativism for plants,
Like I genuinely can't work it out. If anyone has
any ideas, please let me know. It also attempts to
inventory damage done to public lands by my grants, like
what wildfires are caused by migrants? How many national parks
(12:05):
are trashed by migrants?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Oh my god? Yeah, as opposed to the Americans citizens
who treat these areas like dogshit. Yeah, is who simply
just don't do their jobs because they're too lazy.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, And like the literally thousands of people a year
who fucking drag their refrigerator or television onto public land
and execute it by firing squad. Yeah. Like yeah, maybe
make a bill about that. I mean, you want to
do something nice for public land. I want to give
a definition of wilderness from Howard. I think it's zamasav
and he ever read his name with a Wilderness Society,
who more or less wrote act It defines wilderness as
(12:37):
quote a wilderness in contrast with those areas where man
and his own works dominate the landscape is hereby recognized
as an area where the earth and its community of
life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a
visitor and who does not remain. I don't actually really
like that definition. I like wilderness, but I'm not a
(12:58):
big fan of the idea of like quote unquote unti wilderness. Right,
like every bit of what is now the United States
is a place where indigenous people have been living and
surviving for tens of thousands of years, long before it
was the United States. It's not untouched. It's just not
fucked by extractive capitalism in a way that a lot
of our land has been in the last two hundred.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Years, there could be touching without a fuck, that's what
you're saying. Person.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I saw this mischievous look come on their face, and
I didn't know which direction they were going to take it,
but I didn't expect that one.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Now this is podcasting.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah wow, Yeah, we've just left the news reel. Let's
do an advertising break so we can't come back from that.
All right, we've returned de scandalized myself. Lee is currently
(14:04):
making his claims right that this will somehow make the
border safer and make people on public lands safer.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
This is such the thinnest justification that you're throwing in
like this is so I severely doubt he sincerely even
believes this.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, I mean the border patrol have access to all
these lands, right, like I see I think the cumber
Wilderness of state Wilderness. I see border patrol in there
all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I can see. There's many reasons for why our republic
and might be interested in like building road infrastructure in
these places and border security. Frankly, is insulting that you're
that he's even trying to use that as a zeitgeist justification.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, it's fucking ludicrous. Like the Trump administration is speed
running extractive capitalism on our public lands. Right, just yesterday
when we're recordings recording on Friday, Joe Biden as president.
As you will remember, Friday seven November twenty twenty, the
Trump administration nominated. Okay, I've outed myself. I'm not a
(15:05):
Biden I'm not a Biden truther. The Trump administration dominated
Steve Pierce to lead the Bureau of Land Management. Piers
is a former New Mexico congressman who has supported brilling
and fracking on federal land. He's also a serial loser
in congressional and state races in New Mexico. I think
he lost a Senate and a gubernatorial race, and he
(15:27):
has voted to shrink existing public lands. The Trump admin
did this before, right. People will probably if they're engaged
in public land advocacy, they will remember the attempts to
save the Bears Ears National Monument from oil exploitation, right,
which again is in Utah. Utah is for whatever reason,
(15:49):
Utah is a hotbed of anti public lands settlement. Amusingly,
the previous nominee for the leadership of the BLM had
to be removed when emails condemning Trump's response to January
sixth came to light she I guess failed the loyalty test.
Trump has also put Doug Bergham at the head of
(16:09):
the Department of the Interior. Right, if you're wilar with
Bergham's shtick, guest.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
His name sounds incredibly familiar.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, he was governor I believe in North Dakota. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Like he did this pivot on like culture war issues
where he had previously been not opposed to abortion, for example,
and he just like took a massive swing to the
right in order to kind of align with the Muga
position over time. So he's not lying the Department of
(16:40):
the Interior. I wrote about this on my newsletter that
I write because when he was nominated, he received a
letter of support from the Outdoor Recreation round Table, a
bunch of outdoor brands, notably ARII was one of the
brands that supported nomination. Bergham is another big oil and
(17:02):
gas guy, right, He's a guy who has talked about
the need for energy exploitation on public land. I have
a whole scripted series and in working on about specifically
drilling in the Arctic refuge. But this goes far far
beyond that, right, this could potentially affect every piece of
public land, every national park, every national monument in the
United States.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
And drill baby drill, Yes, drill baby.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Drill is pretty much our approach to public land these days. Amusingly,
ARII was shamed into rescinding their support of Bergham for that. Yeah. Yeah,
one of the few instances where people probably posted their
way to a change in in some in some kind
of some kind of policy. I guess, even though it's
only ARII policy. I want to talk a little bit
(17:46):
about how we got to this idea of public land
and the sort of way that it's sometimes referred to,
and in a where I would prefer we talked about it.
I guess the idea we have right now is that
there are various tiers of public land. Right, there's Bureau
of Land Management land, which is often the least protected.
(18:09):
We have national parks, we have National monuments, we have
national forests, and we have wilderness, right, wilderness being among
the most protected. The problem with this approach is that
ecosystems don't necessarily respect property lines. Right. So let's take
for example, the witch in Alaska. Right, they have hundreds
(18:29):
of thousands of acres of their own, but their traditional
way of life, and indeed, like their existence depends on
the existence of the porcupine cariboo herd. The porcupine caribou
herd makes the longest migration of any land mammal on Earth,
and it carves on the coastal plane, the coastal plain.
The gwich In way of saying it would be I
(18:51):
have heard this said a lot of times. My sincere
apologies if I don't get it right, like I'm trauma best.
What's a gwandai goodly means a sacred place where life begins.
It's a very sacred place. Gwitchin don't go there themselves
because it's a sacred place. But it is not in
their land. It is part of the Arctic refuge, a
(19:12):
place where the Trump administration is selling oil and gas leases. Right,
So if the cariboo can't carve, it doesn't matter. It
still matters to the Guichin have all this land, but
they won't have their cariboo right because the herd will
be so disrupted by oil and gas relin where it's
carving that it will then disrupt that whole landscape. Right
without Cariboo, that landscape would be fundamentally different. So right now,
(19:37):
the way we talk about public lands, I think we
talk about them like in terms of leisure, right Like
often they're scene as having a value. Like I guess
the classic example would be maybe don't remember this gig
Patagonia when an advertising campaign called the places we play
in the last Trump administration, it's not it, right Like,
(20:01):
that is not cool. I think if we only see
wilderness as a place where, like folks go outside to
do send the na on climbing routes and fucking shreds
and mountain bike trails, bro, then we fundamentally like missed
the value of it, right Yeah, this goes back a
long long time. For instance, if we look back in
ninety twenty nine with specifically with the protection of the
(20:23):
Arctic Refuge, we can see this piece that Bob Marshall wrote.
Bob Marshall was a forest at the time, but he's
kind of important in this creating this idea of like
wilderness and wilderness protections. He talked about the quote unquote
emotional values of the frontier being preserved in the wilderness,
which again I think kind of tells us a lot
a lot of what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's a very very Theodore Roosevelt brained approach to conservation.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah, right, Like we can go out there and we
can all pretend to be like the guys who participated
in the genocide of indigenous peoples of North America. I
guess like he also he considered using the definition attract
of solitude and savageness, which, again, like it says a
lot about it's removing the people from the land, right, like,
both literally and in our conception of it. And I
(21:11):
don't think we should do that. Right when we talk
about wilderness, we need to talk about it hand in
hand with the indigenous people of this country and their
traditional management practices which allowed this place to be unspoiled
until folks started to exploit it in the last couple
of hundred years. They'll take an ad break, hopefully we
(21:32):
get something for like fracking or some other petrochemical industry,
and it will be right back. We are back and
we are talking about Senator Mike Lee again, Garrison, would
(21:56):
you like to guess which industries have emerged on the
top of Senator might Lee's donor list When I cruise
unto open secrets.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Is it fracking and drilling.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
It's actually real estate. He's got a ton of money
from real estate. About six hundred and sixty five thousand.
Six hundred and sixty five thousand is not that much
money when you consider the millions of acres of public
lands which would be completely and permanently altered by this, right.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, he really should be asking for a lot more
money to sell off secure the bag. If you're going
to do this, it's grossly undervalue. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I always look at campaign donations and I kind of
expect them to be in the billions or trillions when
like you're looking at just this massive and permanent change
in government policy.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
It's that easy, folks.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, which is why we are launching a crowdfunding campaign
to buy back or the public lands. We're not No
one should own them. We should not be buying them back,
that they should be protected. It's kind of remarkable how
many of our public lands this would impact, right within
one hundred miles at a border that gives us two
(23:10):
thirds of the United States population. The general definition that
DHS has operated with also includes all of the Great
Lakes as quote unquote international waterways, so that takes in
like a good chunk of the Midwest, right, it would
then go one hundred miles from the shore of any
(23:32):
of the Great Lakes. I've seen this reported on very
poorly or not at all. A lot of the people
who are better at talking about public lands are like
the hunting fishing, like hook and bullet media. They will
talk about it more in my experience, and like the
straight up outdoor media right, which is where I've made
(23:54):
my career at least somewhat for the last fifteen years.
They will also go harder for it, like it's generally
a more conservative world. But like they will they will
go after politicians who sell public lands. But I think
if you're incapable of understanding that, like the border as
a zone of exception, the border as a zone without
(24:14):
constitutional rights is a problem, and this selling of the
public lands is part of that problem, then like it's
very hard to have a complete analysis of this. So
like I've seen a lot of analysis without any seemingly
where the rights don't understand the United States operates this
one hundred mile border enforcement zone, right, and that you,
as a US citizen or as an non sensim have
(24:36):
fewer rights within that enforcement zone. I have seen a
lot of analysis which doesn't take into account this weird
assessing of migrant damage to public land, Like, in what
world is that a useful allocation of governments? Like there
are places right where, Like if I think about the
(24:56):
places where the Biden administration did outdoor attention, that land
escape was damaged because people had fires to stay warm,
and that fire cause is scarring right in our desert landscapes. Yeah,
that landscape is damaged, Like how are you going to
what are you going to do? There were like a
thousand people a day coming through at one point. Are
you going to find them all and charge them more
for like misdemeanor California fire? But also there's a tiny
(25:20):
provision of this bill that I found that suggests that
migrants cannot be housed on federal public land unless they
are housed in a detention center. Yeah, yeah, great, thanks.
That was kind of the case before, Like you couldn't
really just be like, well, I mean, by the administration
(25:40):
did just say right, you all campaigre and we'll come
get you in a week. But there wasn't really a
legal precedent for that. They just went ahead and did it.
I guess what I want to end up with is, like,
I'm obviously very passionate about this. I guess I'm kind
of a public land super user. You do be camping,
Yeah I do. I am a Yeah, I am a
camping guy. If there's one thing that defines to me,
it's going camping. I try and sleep outside least once
(26:04):
a month. But yeah, most of my happiest memories in
life are like moving under my own power through the mountains.
That is when I'm happiest. That is how I deal
with my shit. That is what I do with myself
after every single one of the traumatic work trips that
you that you seem to love listening to, right like that,
(26:26):
that is how I cope with the fact that my
job is to turn trauma into stuff to go in
between chumper casino ads. So, yeah, I love public lands.
But you should too, even if you don't recreate on
public lands. Right. So that's the public lands are called
America's best idea. I don't like that because inherent in
having public lands is a removal of them from indigenous people, right,
(26:48):
and indigenous people losing their sovereignty over those lands. But
as things that the state has done with land goes.
Protecting it for future generations is one of the good ones, right,
Like there are some truly special places. The vastness of
the Western United States is why I live here. I
cycled across the United States in twenty ten, and I
(27:12):
was just blown away by, like the scale of the
landscapes without significant human damage. That's still something I'm blown
away by. Yeah, you know, fifteen years later. I spend
as much time as I can, and not just like
national parks. I think a lot of people, if they've
visited public land, were associated with national parks. I'd really
encourage you to like hit up national forests, wilderness lands
(27:33):
like places where there it's not a line or a
ticket kiosk, Like you can have a really special wilderness
experience there. But even if you don't want to, that
doesn't appeal to you, if it's not something that you
feel like physically or otherwise comfortable doing that. The fact
that it will be there for future generations, the fact
that there is potential to return this land to the
(27:55):
indigenous people of North America without giant fucking minds scars
and roads cut through it right now is something that
we should fight for and like public lands. It's one
of those things where like I have conversations with dudes
who do not agree with me politically at all, like
people who definitely voted for Donald Trump who are also
(28:16):
furious about this shit. And if you can help people
see that this is part of a bigger problem, Like
if this can be a place where we can build
a coalition, that is a good thing. And it's one
of those things that like to take action, you can
just live out and go on the internet and write
to your senator, call your representative, Like you can do
these things which are so easy, low risk, and like
(28:39):
it's a sort of engagement that like neoliberal bipartisan politics
wants you to have. Right, it's not hard, but in
this instance, you can do something really good by doing that.
So I would encourage you to do that. Mike Lee's
bill is currently in committee, I believe the Energy and
Natural Resources Committee TBD whether it gets out of there.
(29:02):
But he has tried twice, like since the summer, to
significantly destroy this incredible thing that we all have access
to in the United States. He will continue to try.
This is clearly something that he he has an agenda for,
so like I would really encourage people to keep an
eye out and we will keep reporting on it. Anything
(29:24):
else you want to talk about public landscare.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, I mean it's a different approach to dealing with
like protected wilderness land. Prop one to amend the state
Constitution just passed in New York. Basically what happened like
one hundred years ago, they were building this Olympic sports
complex and violation of the wilderness like protection like state
(29:49):
like act or part of the Constitution. And to deal
with that, I'm not sure what's taken this long, but
to deal with this, they have just days ago voted
to amenda constitution to set aside twenty five hundred acres
of mountain land nearby but not on this complex, and
(30:11):
to turn that into protected land to then continue the
operation and like maintenance of the sports complex. The proposition
was worded a bit weird, but I think in effect
this just results in there being in in the end
of more public land or more protected land specifically. Yeah,
(30:31):
and the complex that already exists can then continue to
function because the lands already it was already used.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, right, like they sort of built it and then
ask permission, like I guess one hundred years later almost. Yeah,
like land swaps happen, they like and like like sometimes
you'll see people being like, oh, this is public land
being sort of like sometimes landswaps are very menial, right,
like if there's a little parcel of national forest land
or like it can it's a piece that like it's
(31:01):
next to a school and the school needs a playing
field and those. Yeah, things like that. Land swaps do happen.
And as long as we're not like losing anchorage to
oil and gas or to like mcmahonson building, you know,
I think we can be flexible.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
No, I mean if anything this this this will set
us side thousands of acres of land to not have
that happen to it. Yeah in the mountains of like
that runax Oric. Yes, and then this complex can now
continue to get maintained. I think if this, if this
didn't pass, they would like restrictions would fall upon the
(31:36):
capacity of this complex started to be operating.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
That's dumb because you have a place which is like
it's not going back, right, Like, once you've built stuff, you.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Should use it. The damage has been dying, I should
use it here and then protect more land exactly. Yeah,
and luckily this this thing barely passed. It was. It
was pretty closing around fifty two percent. Yes, most of
the votes for no did come from people, I think
living in New York City. I think mostly because of
the the proposition was worded. It was worded in an
odd way because it made it sound like you're like
(32:05):
sacrificing currently protected land at the complexes on. So I
think people who are approaching it's from like kind of
an ecological standpoint, a conservation standpoint. Yeah, like misunderstood or
had or had some like differing view on like the
value of protecting the current land and the complex is
(32:26):
on versus establishing thousands of acres of more lands to
be protected nearby.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Right, Yeah, I mean initiatives and propositions are often written
in a particularly bizarre way, and it's a it's not
like like the California Prop fifty was like two lions.
This is several paragraphs of so I can see how
it would have been confusing to people. But yeah, like
this also happens at a state level all the time, right,
Like states have public lands too. You'll see like a
(32:52):
patchwork of state and federal and private land, especially like
in some national forests in the West. Right, But that's
something that is especially in Republican rund states now people
should be very aware of in their own states. It's
like the GOP didn't used to be massively anti public lands.
This is a new thing for them, right, They always
(33:14):
felt that they needed there. I guess maybe that they
needed their like hunting, fishing, shooting, crowd.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
No, but environmentalism is now wokeafied.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, this is like a post to al Gore thing
of now. The Conservatives associate a lot of this language
with like climate change algorisms that it's his this woke element.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, it's very strange. It's funny. I'll often when I'm
out about, you know, like exploring in the back country,
I run into guys who are out there like they're
either hunting or like looking for places to hunt. I
think we'll be like, oh, yeah, well there aren't as
many of the turkeys or the deer or the whatever
is there used to be. But then it's very hard
(33:58):
for people who now can't say climate change is real
to find a way of like having permission to say
what they want to say because they've seen it with
their own eyes. Yeah. Better. Also, they don't want to
say it, but.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
No, I mean I did an episode about this after
the R and C because I talked with Yeah, yeah,
this like Republican conservation group about how they're trying to
bring back like put the conservative back in conservation Jesus.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, I think generally, generally the idea of them
conserving anything is pretty much off the table at this point.
But yeah, people getting out in public land, will you
will understand climate change. You spend long enough going to
the same spot, and you're going to see what that means.
So it has a lot of benefits. Go outside this weekend,
go camping. It's great desert season right now. If you're
(34:47):
within range of a desert, go camping in the desert.
Look at the stars to find a dark sky area
if that's your thing. ARII who had the like, don't
go shopping on Black Friday. Go outside. You don't remember this,
It's okay, this is just shit.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
That's I you know, I am pro gazing at the
flickering lights of civilization Garrison.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
No one wants to see the fucking flickering lights of civilization.
I do, I do, I don't. I want to see
the stars. I camped in Chaco Canyon earlier this year.
Banger of a national park. That's my it's my final tip.
View of the Great House at Chaco Canyon was the
largest building constructed in the United States until eighteen eighty.
(35:31):
Really yeah, yeah, it is vast. It's one of the
least visited parks in the system because you have to
go like seventeen miles down in dirt road. Sure, but
incredible that these are the ancestral Pueblo and it's right
like the people who are the ancestors of the Pueblo
tribes today. But it's an amazing place to go. Check out.
(35:52):
You should all go, not at once. There's not enough
space for all of you.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I mean, I'm just throlling through Mike Lee's Twitter account.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Now, oh yeah, you got any bangers?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Uh? Not really really not really. I mean he's he's
whining about Zoron and posting a lot about Charlie Kirk
and that's mostly See, he.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Doesn't even talk about this stuff because no one likes it.
He got hammered by a bunch of like very right
wing rancher types on Twitter last time he tried to
do this.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I think he knows better because a lot of people.
You can also graze cattle on public land. Right, there's
been a whole standoff about this. Long time listeners will
remember the Bundy situation. But yeah, linked to I guess
he's also pissed those people off. Now. I just went
to search for the news coverage of this. The only
thing we can find is a Washington Examiner. So it's
(36:42):
it's just us and them. Got the video. The auto
players on the Washington Examiner page is petrifying.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
The true bastions of journalists and the Washington.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Horseshoes theory come to life. Oh god, all right, I
go outside. This week's last weekend. Don't go to we
go outside. Go outside tomorrow. Bye.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
now find sources for it Could Happen here listed directly
in episode descriptions.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Thanks for listening.
Also media. Hello everyone to welcome to if it can
happen here a podcast where I have just been attacked
for my identity as a British person by my colleague
Garrison Davis.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I gere it's going to happen again. Really, I never
This podcast is not a safe space.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Not for British people. Sadly, many many such places for us,
including Britain, which is a country which is not doing
so well right now. The Britain is still very safe.
I don't want to talk about Britain today. I do, incidentally,
I guess because I grew up in a country that
has virtually no fucking public land I mean in the commons.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yes, actually kind of topical.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, it is. That is a question that actually, and
so earlier this year in September, I was staying with
which in people who are indigenous to the Northern Alaskan,
Interior Arctic and Subarctic, and one of them was like, hey,
how did you guys get so dislocated from your lands?
One of my friends who I was talking to, and
it was a really interesting question for you, right because
(01:08):
they have lived on that same land for as long
as human beings have existed in the Americas the twenty
five thousand years something like that. Like, the answer is
the enclosure of the commons, right, the answer is like
proto capitalism is what removed folks like me from the
land and identifying in a way that those people identify
(01:29):
with the land. But in the United States, we do
have a little bit or quite a lot actually of
public land, right, various different types of public land, various
different land protections that anyone can go to where you
don't have to be in America or a citizen. Anyone
can go to public lands and enjoy them. Unfortunately, Utah
(01:52):
Senator quote unquote based Mike Lee is once again attempting
to weaken protections on wilderness, which will render some of
the small parts of the USA they have not been
fundamentally damaged by capitalism, permanently and irrevocably changed. Are you
familiar with Mike Lee.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, he's the senator from Utah, the senator from Utah. Yeah,
and he's based as you have said, Yes, he's based.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
He's a hashtag poster.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
He's a poster. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
He operates a Twitter account which some might deem as
offensive and tweets about current current events in a very
provocative way. Yeah, usually in line with some kind of
partisan sentiments.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, that's pretty fair.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Specifically, following the assassination of Melissa Hortman and her husband,
made a series of tweets that were I guess, kind
of insensitive, if not actually if not laying blame at
the governor of Minnesota in this kind of ironic joking
way where you have plausible deniability, but in general handled
(02:58):
that situation very grossly. And I think that that's what
most people might know his tweets for. But he's very active,
He's he's tweets about many things, many a thing.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, yeah, if he thinks that, he posts it. But yeah, yeah,
most people will know him as a guy who made
the extremely poor taste posts following those.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Murders nightmare on walls the street.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, just nothing to be posting when some people have
been murdered.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I think in general, when people are murdered, I think
we as humans should should post.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
The last Yeah yeah, right, if somebody has died, like,
just don't post, you know, maybe not to say this
is terrible, so your condolences or whatever, but realistically their
family aren't looking on on Twitter dot com to see
you who who's sending their condolences. But the sure as
funk we'll find out if you try and make a
funny about it. So to just don't just resist urge
(03:51):
to post another urge that Mike Lee sadly have is
I don't like that at all.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, we're talking about Mike Lee's urgents.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Okay, it's in the broadcastable space. Mike Lee has the
urge to sell off public land. He has tried twice
this year. We spoke about this a little bit on
ed right, we talked about it in the context of
the Big Beautiful Bill or the One Big Beautiful Bill Act.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, he did try that like half a year ago.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yes he did. Well, Garrison, I regret to inform you
that Mike Lee is back somehow.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Mike Lee has returned.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, and this time he has got a new thing.
So last time, if you remember, he talked about selling
off the public land to make affordable housing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Sure, sure, yeah, not going to look into this any further.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
And that was exactly what he was relying on. That
no one gave a shit about the millions of acres
that we all get access to, and they would just
trust him on that one.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Based Mike Lee and his abundance exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's him and there's o run shaking hands when it
comes to affordable housing, but something they care about very much,
I'm sure, something that Mike Lee has campaigned on for years.
He did not stick Landing on that because people read
the proposal and they noticed that it was going to
do nothing for housing affordability whatsoever. If it did create
any housing at all, it was going to be like
(05:21):
super rich people's McMansions. You know, this was not going
to do anything to move the needlearn affordable housing in
the US. This time, he has found a cause which
receives even less scrutiny. Can you guess what it is, Garrison.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Ah, for why we need to sell the public lands. Yes,
I'm trying to not just look ahead on your script.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, there is a document in front of you which,
as he asked, it, so close your eyes. I feel
like there's like two or three things in the US
where everyone just seems to turn a blind eye to,
like I.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Mean, this is it for like is it for like
developing land for like oil data centers?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Uh, that probably is what's happening. But he's he's smart
enough not to say that, right.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Super Gold magic card as in the as in the
film Eddington. I mean, I would guess the data centers,
but that that's that I could be wrong.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's border security. Oh great, of course, right. You could
have said anti terrorism and probably got there to you.
But no, it is. It is securing US southern well
all aboarders, actually southern border, northern border, Eastern and western
maritime borders. Obviously they're they're looking to prevent any more
(06:43):
people coming in from Canada. Was not a border stick
that that is correct? That borders because literally, so you
go to search something.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Full off the map of the United States, I was like,
I don't think you. Maybe I'm misremembering, but you does
not a border state.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Is absolutely not a border state.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Gas.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
It's actually not.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
A border state. It is above Arizona, which.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Is yeah, so that is perhaps what's going on here.
Mike Lee has found a way to sell off public
lands without selling off U to ohur public lands. Oh
in this case, not really sell off, but destroy and
degrade in a way which is very clearly going to
lead to commercial exploitation. Right, what Lee proposes, what Lee's
(07:28):
bill has a bunch of cosponsors. I believe the only
border State Senator co sponsoring it is head cruise that
makes sense, big public lands, respector. But Lee's bill would
allow the Department of Homeland Security to quote inventory illegal
roads and trails on public land within one hundred miles
of the border and then convert them into navigable roads.
(07:51):
That that is the part that makes no sense, right,
Like when you look at Lee's statements, and I will
read one of Lee's statements here. So this is a
statement on the Senate Energy Committee web page where they
talk about Energy Natural Resources Committee. His quote from Mike
Lee explaining his bill quote, Biden's open border chaos is
(08:16):
destroying America's crown duels. I'm going to pause here to
note this. According to my watch, we're at November seventh,
twenty twenty five, while your watches rog Yeah, we are
once again asking the most important question of our time.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
It was President who is He used the president tense.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
It didn't It's not even like talking about twenty twenty
and pretending that Trump was a president. He's doing it.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Right now that the art Quorterer policies are destroying our
natural airs.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, we were a year after the election. You've had
time to come to terms with this. You can't just
keep pointing at Joe, but apparently I guess you can.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
They're going to keep doing that for three more years
until there's a new guy.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah. Yeah, So let's go on with Chairman Lee, his
chairman of this Senate Energy Natural Resources Committee. Right, Families
who want to enjoy a safe hike or camp out
are instead finding trash piles, burned landscapes, and trails closed
because rangers are stuck cleaning up the fallout. Cartels are
exploiting the disorder, using these lands as cover for their operations.
(09:31):
This bill gives land managers and border agents tools to
restore order and protect these places for the people they
were meant to serve. He's doing the thing where he
says one thing and then his build does something completely different. Yeah,
what he is saying is, on the face of it,
somewhat ridiculous. But what he's claiming he's going to do
is protect these lands. Right. What the bill allows them
(09:53):
to do is to find roads that are not permitted
and turn them into navigable roads.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So just actually pave roads, yes, in the protected wildlife in.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
The Yeah, well crucially in wilderness areas. Right. So the
nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act does not allow for there
to be any mechanized access. Lee's bill proposes not just
to amend the Wilderness Act for within one hundred miles
of the border, but to amend it entirely to allow
(10:24):
for the construction of roads.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So that they can police the public lands better. That's
that's what he's saying.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, right, Well, he's one of his claims is for
search and rescue, and that there are already exemptions that
allow for mechanize search and rescue access, right, like things
like helicopters, right, helicopters. Yeah, if you get and even
like you get like motorized gurneys, you can use thesar
things like that, right, like the even ATVs. Right, there's
a threat to human lives.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
A Toyota tacoma.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, I mean you'd struggle in most wilderness lands with
the Tacoma, but yeah, you could. You could give it
a college try. But it's ludicrous. He hasn't even made
an effort to join the dots, you know. It also
calls for fire mitigation by clearing fuels and building fire breaks,
and includes a provision that would quote address invasive or
(11:14):
non native species.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
In the wilderness area.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, like, what are you going to go in there
and round us?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Everyone's planting and spreading invasive species.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, I mean, of course they are invasive species right late,
Like if you go to parts of where I live,
like you'll see mustard, which is not an indigenous species
because the climate's changing and people move around the world,
and like, lots and lots of animals that weren't like
here twenty thousand years ago are here now.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I mean, you can make an argument for managing these areas.
I don't think he's coming at this from an environmental
conservation standpoint.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah. I don't know what the non native species thing
is about other than like just like nativism for plants,
Like I genuinely can't work it out. If anyone has
any ideas, please let me know. It also attempts to
inventory damage done to public lands by my grants, like
what wildfires are caused by migrants? How many national parks
(12:05):
are trashed by migrants?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Oh my god? Yeah, as opposed to the Americans citizens
who treat these areas like dogshit. Yeah, is who simply
just don't do their jobs because they're too lazy.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, And like the literally thousands of people a year
who fucking drag their refrigerator or television onto public land
and execute it by firing squad. Yeah. Like yeah, maybe
make a bill about that. I mean, you want to
do something nice for public land. I want to give
a definition of wilderness from Howard. I think it's zamasav
and he ever read his name with a Wilderness Society,
who more or less wrote act It defines wilderness as
(12:37):
quote a wilderness in contrast with those areas where man
and his own works dominate the landscape is hereby recognized
as an area where the earth and its community of
life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a
visitor and who does not remain. I don't actually really
like that definition. I like wilderness, but I'm not a
(12:58):
big fan of the idea of like quote unquote unti wilderness. Right,
like every bit of what is now the United States
is a place where indigenous people have been living and
surviving for tens of thousands of years, long before it
was the United States. It's not untouched. It's just not
fucked by extractive capitalism in a way that a lot
of our land has been in the last two hundred.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Years, there could be touching without a fuck, that's what
you're saying. Person.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I saw this mischievous look come on their face, and
I didn't know which direction they were going to take it,
but I didn't expect that one.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Now this is podcasting.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah wow, Yeah, we've just left the news reel. Let's
do an advertising break so we can't come back from that.
All right, we've returned de scandalized myself. Lee is currently
(14:04):
making his claims right that this will somehow make the
border safer and make people on public lands safer.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
This is such the thinnest justification that you're throwing in
like this is so I severely doubt he sincerely even
believes this.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, I mean the border patrol have access to all
these lands, right, like I see I think the cumber
Wilderness of state Wilderness. I see border patrol in there
all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I can see. There's many reasons for why our republic
and might be interested in like building road infrastructure in
these places and border security. Frankly, is insulting that you're
that he's even trying to use that as a zeitgeist justification.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, it's fucking ludicrous. Like the Trump administration is speed
running extractive capitalism on our public lands. Right, just yesterday
when we're recordings recording on Friday, Joe Biden as president.
As you will remember, Friday seven November twenty twenty, the
Trump administration nominated. Okay, I've outed myself. I'm not a
(15:05):
Biden I'm not a Biden truther. The Trump administration dominated
Steve Pierce to lead the Bureau of Land Management. Piers
is a former New Mexico congressman who has supported brilling
and fracking on federal land. He's also a serial loser
in congressional and state races in New Mexico. I think
he lost a Senate and a gubernatorial race, and he
(15:27):
has voted to shrink existing public lands. The Trump admin
did this before, right. People will probably if they're engaged
in public land advocacy, they will remember the attempts to
save the Bears Ears National Monument from oil exploitation, right,
which again is in Utah. Utah is for whatever reason,
(15:49):
Utah is a hotbed of anti public lands settlement. Amusingly,
the previous nominee for the leadership of the BLM had
to be removed when emails condemning Trump's response to January
sixth came to light she I guess failed the loyalty test.
Trump has also put Doug Bergham at the head of
(16:09):
the Department of the Interior. Right, if you're wilar with
Bergham's shtick, guest.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
His name sounds incredibly familiar.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, he was governor I believe in North Dakota. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Like he did this pivot on like culture war issues
where he had previously been not opposed to abortion, for example,
and he just like took a massive swing to the
right in order to kind of align with the Muga
position over time. So he's not lying the Department of
(16:40):
the Interior. I wrote about this on my newsletter that
I write because when he was nominated, he received a
letter of support from the Outdoor Recreation round Table, a
bunch of outdoor brands, notably ARII was one of the
brands that supported nomination. Bergham is another big oil and
(17:02):
gas guy, right, He's a guy who has talked about
the need for energy exploitation on public land. I have
a whole scripted series and in working on about specifically
drilling in the Arctic refuge. But this goes far far
beyond that, right, this could potentially affect every piece of
public land, every national park, every national monument in the
United States.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
And drill baby drill, Yes, drill baby.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Drill is pretty much our approach to public land these days. Amusingly,
ARII was shamed into rescinding their support of Bergham for that. Yeah. Yeah,
one of the few instances where people probably posted their
way to a change in in some in some kind
of some kind of policy. I guess, even though it's
only ARII policy. I want to talk a little bit
(17:46):
about how we got to this idea of public land
and the sort of way that it's sometimes referred to,
and in a where I would prefer we talked about it.
I guess the idea we have right now is that
there are various tiers of public land. Right, there's Bureau
of Land Management land, which is often the least protected.
(18:09):
We have national parks, we have National monuments, we have
national forests, and we have wilderness, right, wilderness being among
the most protected. The problem with this approach is that
ecosystems don't necessarily respect property lines. Right. So let's take
for example, the witch in Alaska. Right, they have hundreds
(18:29):
of thousands of acres of their own, but their traditional
way of life, and indeed, like their existence depends on
the existence of the porcupine cariboo herd. The porcupine caribou
herd makes the longest migration of any land mammal on Earth,
and it carves on the coastal plane, the coastal plain.
The gwich In way of saying it would be I
(18:51):
have heard this said a lot of times. My sincere
apologies if I don't get it right, like I'm trauma best.
What's a gwandai goodly means a sacred place where life begins.
It's a very sacred place. Gwitchin don't go there themselves
because it's a sacred place. But it is not in
their land. It is part of the Arctic refuge, a
(19:12):
place where the Trump administration is selling oil and gas leases. Right,
So if the cariboo can't carve, it doesn't matter. It
still matters to the Guichin have all this land, but
they won't have their cariboo right because the herd will
be so disrupted by oil and gas relin where it's
carving that it will then disrupt that whole landscape. Right
without Cariboo, that landscape would be fundamentally different. So right now,
(19:37):
the way we talk about public lands, I think we
talk about them like in terms of leisure, right Like
often they're scene as having a value. Like I guess
the classic example would be maybe don't remember this gig
Patagonia when an advertising campaign called the places we play
in the last Trump administration, it's not it, right Like,
(20:01):
that is not cool. I think if we only see
wilderness as a place where, like folks go outside to
do send the na on climbing routes and fucking shreds
and mountain bike trails, bro, then we fundamentally like missed
the value of it, right Yeah, this goes back a
long long time. For instance, if we look back in
ninety twenty nine with specifically with the protection of the
(20:23):
Arctic Refuge, we can see this piece that Bob Marshall wrote.
Bob Marshall was a forest at the time, but he's
kind of important in this creating this idea of like
wilderness and wilderness protections. He talked about the quote unquote
emotional values of the frontier being preserved in the wilderness,
which again I think kind of tells us a lot
a lot of what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's a very very Theodore Roosevelt brained approach to conservation.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah, right, Like we can go out there and we
can all pretend to be like the guys who participated
in the genocide of indigenous peoples of North America. I
guess like he also he considered using the definition attract
of solitude and savageness, which, again, like it says a
lot about it's removing the people from the land, right, like,
both literally and in our conception of it. And I
(21:11):
don't think we should do that. Right when we talk
about wilderness, we need to talk about it hand in
hand with the indigenous people of this country and their
traditional management practices which allowed this place to be unspoiled
until folks started to exploit it in the last couple
of hundred years. They'll take an ad break, hopefully we
(21:32):
get something for like fracking or some other petrochemical industry,
and it will be right back. We are back and
we are talking about Senator Mike Lee again, Garrison, would
(21:56):
you like to guess which industries have emerged on the
top of Senator might Lee's donor list When I cruise
unto open secrets.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Is it fracking and drilling.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
It's actually real estate. He's got a ton of money
from real estate. About six hundred and sixty five thousand.
Six hundred and sixty five thousand is not that much
money when you consider the millions of acres of public
lands which would be completely and permanently altered by this, right.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, he really should be asking for a lot more
money to sell off secure the bag. If you're going
to do this, it's grossly undervalue. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I always look at campaign donations and I kind of
expect them to be in the billions or trillions when
like you're looking at just this massive and permanent change
in government policy.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
It's that easy, folks.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, which is why we are launching a crowdfunding campaign
to buy back or the public lands. We're not No
one should own them. We should not be buying them back,
that they should be protected. It's kind of remarkable how
many of our public lands this would impact, right within
one hundred miles at a border that gives us two
(23:10):
thirds of the United States population. The general definition that
DHS has operated with also includes all of the Great
Lakes as quote unquote international waterways, so that takes in
like a good chunk of the Midwest, right, it would
then go one hundred miles from the shore of any
(23:32):
of the Great Lakes. I've seen this reported on very
poorly or not at all. A lot of the people
who are better at talking about public lands are like
the hunting fishing, like hook and bullet media. They will
talk about it more in my experience, and like the
straight up outdoor media right, which is where I've made
(23:54):
my career at least somewhat for the last fifteen years.
They will also go harder for it, like it's generally
a more conservative world. But like they will they will
go after politicians who sell public lands. But I think
if you're incapable of understanding that, like the border as
a zone of exception, the border as a zone without
(24:14):
constitutional rights is a problem, and this selling of the
public lands is part of that problem, then like it's
very hard to have a complete analysis of this. So
like I've seen a lot of analysis without any seemingly
where the rights don't understand the United States operates this
one hundred mile border enforcement zone, right, and that you,
as a US citizen or as an non sensim have
(24:36):
fewer rights within that enforcement zone. I have seen a
lot of analysis which doesn't take into account this weird
assessing of migrant damage to public land, Like, in what
world is that a useful allocation of governments? Like there
are places right where, Like if I think about the
(24:56):
places where the Biden administration did outdoor attention, that land
escape was damaged because people had fires to stay warm,
and that fire cause is scarring right in our desert landscapes. Yeah,
that landscape is damaged, Like how are you going to
what are you going to do? There were like a
thousand people a day coming through at one point. Are
you going to find them all and charge them more
for like misdemeanor California fire? But also there's a tiny
(25:20):
provision of this bill that I found that suggests that
migrants cannot be housed on federal public land unless they
are housed in a detention center. Yeah, yeah, great, thanks.
That was kind of the case before, Like you couldn't
really just be like, well, I mean, by the administration
(25:40):
did just say right, you all campaigre and we'll come
get you in a week. But there wasn't really a
legal precedent for that. They just went ahead and did it.
I guess what I want to end up with is, like,
I'm obviously very passionate about this. I guess I'm kind
of a public land super user. You do be camping,
Yeah I do. I am a Yeah, I am a
camping guy. If there's one thing that defines to me,
it's going camping. I try and sleep outside least once
(26:04):
a month. But yeah, most of my happiest memories in
life are like moving under my own power through the mountains.
That is when I'm happiest. That is how I deal
with my shit. That is what I do with myself
after every single one of the traumatic work trips that
you that you seem to love listening to, right like that,
(26:26):
that is how I cope with the fact that my
job is to turn trauma into stuff to go in
between chumper casino ads. So, yeah, I love public lands.
But you should too, even if you don't recreate on
public lands. Right. So that's the public lands are called
America's best idea. I don't like that because inherent in
having public lands is a removal of them from indigenous people, right,
(26:48):
and indigenous people losing their sovereignty over those lands. But
as things that the state has done with land goes.
Protecting it for future generations is one of the good ones, right,
Like there are some truly special places. The vastness of
the Western United States is why I live here. I
cycled across the United States in twenty ten, and I
(27:12):
was just blown away by, like the scale of the
landscapes without significant human damage. That's still something I'm blown
away by. Yeah, you know, fifteen years later. I spend
as much time as I can, and not just like
national parks. I think a lot of people, if they've
visited public land, were associated with national parks. I'd really
encourage you to like hit up national forests, wilderness lands
(27:33):
like places where there it's not a line or a
ticket kiosk, Like you can have a really special wilderness
experience there. But even if you don't want to, that
doesn't appeal to you, if it's not something that you
feel like physically or otherwise comfortable doing that. The fact
that it will be there for future generations, the fact
that there is potential to return this land to the
(27:55):
indigenous people of North America without giant fucking minds scars
and roads cut through it right now is something that
we should fight for and like public lands. It's one
of those things where like I have conversations with dudes
who do not agree with me politically at all, like
people who definitely voted for Donald Trump who are also
(28:16):
furious about this shit. And if you can help people
see that this is part of a bigger problem, Like
if this can be a place where we can build
a coalition, that is a good thing. And it's one
of those things that like to take action, you can
just live out and go on the internet and write
to your senator, call your representative, Like you can do
these things which are so easy, low risk, and like
(28:39):
it's a sort of engagement that like neoliberal bipartisan politics
wants you to have. Right, it's not hard, but in
this instance, you can do something really good by doing that.
So I would encourage you to do that. Mike Lee's
bill is currently in committee, I believe the Energy and
Natural Resources Committee TBD whether it gets out of there.
(29:02):
But he has tried twice, like since the summer, to
significantly destroy this incredible thing that we all have access
to in the United States. He will continue to try.
This is clearly something that he he has an agenda for,
so like I would really encourage people to keep an
eye out and we will keep reporting on it. Anything
(29:24):
else you want to talk about public landscare.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, I mean it's a different approach to dealing with
like protected wilderness land. Prop one to amend the state
Constitution just passed in New York. Basically what happened like
one hundred years ago, they were building this Olympic sports
complex and violation of the wilderness like protection like state
(29:49):
like act or part of the Constitution. And to deal
with that, I'm not sure what's taken this long, but
to deal with this, they have just days ago voted
to amenda constitution to set aside twenty five hundred acres
of mountain land nearby but not on this complex, and
(30:11):
to turn that into protected land to then continue the
operation and like maintenance of the sports complex. The proposition
was worded a bit weird, but I think in effect
this just results in there being in in the end
of more public land or more protected land specifically. Yeah,
(30:31):
and the complex that already exists can then continue to
function because the lands already it was already used.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, right, like they sort of built it and then
ask permission, like I guess one hundred years later almost. Yeah,
like land swaps happen, they like and like like sometimes
you'll see people being like, oh, this is public land
being sort of like sometimes landswaps are very menial, right,
like if there's a little parcel of national forest land
or like it can it's a piece that like it's
(31:01):
next to a school and the school needs a playing
field and those. Yeah, things like that. Land swaps do happen.
And as long as we're not like losing anchorage to
oil and gas or to like mcmahonson building, you know,
I think we can be flexible.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
No, I mean if anything this this this will set
us side thousands of acres of land to not have
that happen to it. Yeah in the mountains of like
that runax Oric. Yes, and then this complex can now
continue to get maintained. I think if this, if this
didn't pass, they would like restrictions would fall upon the
(31:36):
capacity of this complex started to be operating.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
That's dumb because you have a place which is like
it's not going back, right, Like, once you've built stuff, you.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Should use it. The damage has been dying, I should
use it here and then protect more land exactly. Yeah,
and luckily this this thing barely passed. It was. It
was pretty closing around fifty two percent. Yes, most of
the votes for no did come from people, I think
living in New York City. I think mostly because of
the the proposition was worded. It was worded in an
odd way because it made it sound like you're like
(32:05):
sacrificing currently protected land at the complexes on. So I
think people who are approaching it's from like kind of
an ecological standpoint, a conservation standpoint. Yeah, like misunderstood or
had or had some like differing view on like the
value of protecting the current land and the complex is
(32:26):
on versus establishing thousands of acres of more lands to
be protected nearby.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Right, Yeah, I mean initiatives and propositions are often written
in a particularly bizarre way, and it's a it's not
like like the California Prop fifty was like two lions.
This is several paragraphs of so I can see how
it would have been confusing to people. But yeah, like
this also happens at a state level all the time, right,
Like states have public lands too. You'll see like a
(32:52):
patchwork of state and federal and private land, especially like
in some national forests in the West. Right, But that's
something that is especially in Republican rund states now people
should be very aware of in their own states. It's
like the GOP didn't used to be massively anti public lands.
This is a new thing for them, right, They always
(33:14):
felt that they needed there. I guess maybe that they
needed their like hunting, fishing, shooting, crowd.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
No, but environmentalism is now wokeafied.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, this is like a post to al Gore thing
of now. The Conservatives associate a lot of this language
with like climate change algorisms that it's his this woke element.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, it's very strange. It's funny. I'll often when I'm
out about, you know, like exploring in the back country,
I run into guys who are out there like they're
either hunting or like looking for places to hunt. I
think we'll be like, oh, yeah, well there aren't as
many of the turkeys or the deer or the whatever
is there used to be. But then it's very hard
(33:58):
for people who now can't say climate change is real
to find a way of like having permission to say
what they want to say because they've seen it with
their own eyes. Yeah. Better. Also, they don't want to
say it, but.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
No, I mean I did an episode about this after
the R and C because I talked with Yeah, yeah,
this like Republican conservation group about how they're trying to
bring back like put the conservative back in conservation Jesus.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, yeah, I think generally, generally the idea of them
conserving anything is pretty much off the table at this point.
But yeah, people getting out in public land, will you
will understand climate change. You spend long enough going to
the same spot, and you're going to see what that means.
So it has a lot of benefits. Go outside this weekend,
go camping. It's great desert season right now. If you're
(34:47):
within range of a desert, go camping in the desert.
Look at the stars to find a dark sky area
if that's your thing. ARII who had the like, don't
go shopping on Black Friday. Go outside. You don't remember this,
It's okay, this is just shit.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
That's I you know, I am pro gazing at the
flickering lights of civilization Garrison.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
No one wants to see the fucking flickering lights of civilization.
I do, I do, I don't. I want to see
the stars. I camped in Chaco Canyon earlier this year.
Banger of a national park. That's my it's my final tip.
View of the Great House at Chaco Canyon was the
largest building constructed in the United States until eighteen eighty.
(35:31):
Really yeah, yeah, it is vast. It's one of the
least visited parks in the system because you have to
go like seventeen miles down in dirt road. Sure, but
incredible that these are the ancestral Pueblo and it's right
like the people who are the ancestors of the Pueblo
tribes today. But it's an amazing place to go. Check out.
(35:52):
You should all go, not at once. There's not enough
space for all of you.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I mean, I'm just throlling through Mike Lee's Twitter account.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Now, oh yeah, you got any bangers?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Uh? Not really really not really. I mean he's he's
whining about Zoron and posting a lot about Charlie Kirk
and that's mostly See, he.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Doesn't even talk about this stuff because no one likes it.
He got hammered by a bunch of like very right
wing rancher types on Twitter last time he tried to
do this.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I think he knows better because a lot of people.
You can also graze cattle on public land. Right, there's
been a whole standoff about this. Long time listeners will
remember the Bundy situation. But yeah, linked to I guess
he's also pissed those people off. Now. I just went
to search for the news coverage of this. The only
thing we can find is a Washington Examiner. So it's
(36:42):
it's just us and them. Got the video. The auto
players on the Washington Examiner page is petrifying.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
The true bastions of journalists and the Washington.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Horseshoes theory come to life. Oh god, all right, I
go outside. This week's last weekend. Don't go to we
go outside. Go outside tomorrow. Bye.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
now find sources for it Could Happen here listed directly
in episode descriptions.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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