August 5, 2025 • 40 mins
Dana El Kurd sits down with Bushra Khalidi – policy lead at Oxfam – to discuss the aid and humanitarian crisis unfolding across Palestine. They discuss how the devastating hunger and aid restriction happening in Gaza speaks to broader strategies of ethnic cleansing and forced displacement.
Sources/Links:
Oxfam statement about Gaza Humanitarian Foundation - https://www.oxfamamerica.org/press/more-than-100-organizations-are-sounding-the-alarm-to-allow-lifesaving-aid-into-gaza/
Fogbow in Uganda and Sudan - https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/investigations/2025/06/16/fogbow-operations-south-sudan-raise-red-flags-aid-private-sector
Bezalel Smotrich’s “Decisive Plan” - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/09/israel-leaders-palestinian-territories-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-7-october
Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini on dismantling UNRWA - https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/notes/unrwa-may-be-forced-stop-saving-lives-gaza-will-world-let-happen
NPR report on famine in Gaza - https://www.npr.org/sections/goats-and-soda/2025/07/25/g-s1-78968/what-does-it-take-for-a-famine-to-be-declared-in-gaza
US Green Beret on what he saw at the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation sites - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-26/ty-article/i-witnessed-war-crimes-in-gaza-u-s-veteran-and-former-ghf-worker-tells-bbc/00000198-47e0-d6be-a1bd-4ffd67f90000
Aljazeera op-ed by former UN official - https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/7/21/why-is-the-un-not-declaring-famine-in-gaza
UN reporting on deaths at aid sites - https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/07/1165396
Suppressing Dissent edited volume - https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Suppressing-Dissent/Zaha-Hassan/9781836430971
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. My
name is Daniel Kurd. I'm a writer, analyst, and researcher
of Palestinian and Arab politics. I'm an associate professor of
political science and a senior nonresident fellow at the Arab
Center Washington. Today we'll be speaking with Bushracherdi, the policy
lead for Oxfam. Our discussion will cover oxfam's work in
the occupied Palsingian territories and the current crisis in a
(00:29):
distribution we are recording end of July July twenty seventh,
twenty twenty five. NPR reported in May of this year
that Gaza has already reached Phase four of the Integrated
Food Security Phase classification. The IPC just coordinated out of
the UN Food and Agriculture Organization and an organization called
(00:50):
the Famine Early Warning Systems Network. So what does this
all mean? Phase four means emergency. As NPR rights in
there may report hardships, deepened, food gaps widen, and people
resort to really extreme forms of coping. So the Famine
Early Warning Systems Network does not have a presence in
Gaza at the moment. This is their best guess Phase
(01:13):
five is when they declare a famine. We're seeing very
terrible images in the media and on our phone screens
about the level of deprivation in Gaza at the moment
because aid has been blocked off by the Israeli government.
Writing for Al Jazero just a few days ago, former
UN official Munzakhrane accuses the UN of not declaring famine
(01:34):
despite overwhelming evidence, because he says officials are worried about
their careers and possibly worried about antagonizing the US. But
regardless of whether it's Phase four or Phase five, the
situation in Gaza is dire. In July twenty seventh, today
when we're recording, there's reporting that there might be air drops,
that the trucks on the Egyptian Wader are moving towards
(01:56):
Gaza after the Israeli government has received a lot of
pressure or the ongoing aid crisis. But of course that
may be too late for Mini gouzs as I said,
we're speaking with today who will talk to us about
her work from the vantage point of Oxgam Bush.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So let's begin with first describing ox GAM's work and
occupied Palsonate territories.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Sure, we've been here since nineteen fifty six. We have
offices in Ramala and Jerusalem and Gaza. And AUXAM was
originally set up as an organization to fight famine, you know,
the first kind of famines that we've seen globally's that's
originally why AUXLAM was got to set up. And then
so a lot of its programming is around water and sanitation,
(02:42):
food security, lively goods, working with farmers. A big part
of our program is water and sanitation, helping for example,
farming communities, providing them with irrigation pipelines. You know, it
could be agricultural inputs needed for growing their crops. It
could be technical support to farmers to support them and
growing for example, vegetables. How do you grow crops of
(03:04):
vegetables around date trees? You know, So it's kind of
that kind of work. In terms of the food security
component of that, we have a big part of our
work is with women's organizations, women's cooperatives, women's farming cooperatives
as well, especially in the West Bank. And then a
lot of a lot of work with kind of the
(03:25):
relevant ministries and relevant trade unions on for example, agricultural insurance,
so getting you know, trying to get insurance for farmers
in case they're crops or are are ruined or sabotaged
or damaged for example by settler violence, et cetera. So
there's kind of like a piloting kind of program where
we're looking at the potential of providing insurance to the
(03:48):
farming sector here and palastline.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Other things could be could look like, you.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Know, small grants to start a small kind of business
women for examples, women's cooperatives and farming. I mean, so
a lot of it worked like this, and most of
our operations are actually run through partners. So we have
about ninety partners kind of across the occupied file sting territory,
(04:13):
and about eighty to ninety hoard of our operations are
actually completely implemented through partners. But of course, after seventh
of October, our programming really drastically kind of shifted to
fully humanitarian, where you know, we are now basically providing
hygiene kits, food parcels, some agricultural inputs as well, where
(04:34):
we could you know, set in Gaza it looks like
setting up latrines, hand washing state like mobile stations. It
can be like water trucking. I mean it's it's changed,
you know, depending on the access that we've had. So
for example, since March this year, we've not been able
to enter anything because of Israel's full total siege on Gaza,
(04:54):
so nothing kind of entered. So our operations looked like
psychosocial so port to women, young girls and shelters trucking
water from one area to another where we felt like
these communities potentially needed water or had a little access
to water, it could look it looked like a cash
for work. We do a big, big, big, big part
(05:15):
of our both now in the West Bank and in
Gaza is providing cash for work. So for example, we
have daily workers that will remove solid waste with their
bare hands unfortunately because there's no materials to remove waste
in Gaza. But then they would receive like kind of
daily daily rates in order to get paid. And then
(05:35):
there's like cash vouchers for the most vulnerable, where they
can you know, have a voucher in a store and
they can you know, purchase items that we've read for
example with a store owner to that you know, people
can purchase with our with our kind of cards. So
it's very versatile, versatile and especially in last years, had
to adapt and change, you know, very quickly and flexibly
(05:58):
depending on the situation with available in the markets. But
that's kind of like what our programming looks like across
the territory.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, thank you for explaining that, and it brings me
to I mean, you touched on a little bit, but
it brings me to a second question that I think
is important for listeners to to understand is how has
the war in post October seventh really impacted that the
restrictions that is really government is imposing.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
So we know there's a stage in Gaza, but also
in the West Bank.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Absolutely there is so much happening. How has that impacted
ox FAM's work. It's completely restricted US and not just US,
it's all of the international kind of sector, including UN agencies.
I mean, we know what they did with in Owa.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well maybe explain that.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, I'll, I mean Israel, the government of Israel's kind
of attacks or let's say, attacks on the humanitarian civic space.
It's been a long standing policy of THEIRS and started
well before seventh of October. It's gotten just you know,
much tighter, much more restrictive since but you know, this
(07:03):
goes back decades. I would say kind of the most
notorious development in shrinking space, we call it shrinking space,
is twenty twenty one when they declared six organizations Palestinian
civil society organizations, mostly our human rights organizations, so some
of the most notorious and well known human rights organizations
where they're designated as terrorist organizations. So that was kind
(07:27):
of the first big, you know development where many of
those partners, those six partners were actually partners of international organizations.
So you know, we found ourselves kind of advocating for
continuing our support to these six despite the designation by
Israel never you know, and there was never, of course
evidence provided by the Israeli government as to what evidence
(07:49):
they had, why would they deem these organizations terrorist organizations,
But you know, they continued to operate under very very
difficult circums stances. Their offices were rated, their assets were confiscated,
but you know they're still operational and we're still certainly
supporting them. And of course, you know, shrinking space or
(08:11):
the restrictions on humanitarian civic space, it translates into, you know,
into so many different restrictions. It could be you know,
restrictions on permits, restrictions on what crossings you're able to
use as a humanitarian you know, whether you can go
through that crossing or another. It can be visa restrictions,
and we started seeing the visa restrictions even before the war.
(08:33):
And after the war, of course, everything kind of changed,
and now we're facing and I'm talking more about like
legal restrictions in terms of our work, and then I
can talk more about like the siege and the actual
blockade of humanitarian aid into Gaza, which is you know,
effectively completely restricted and our operations and has dismantled really
(08:55):
the humanitarian sector and in its satirety and has reverberating
impacts to the rest of the terrritory. But for us,
I think the first kind of sign of turmoil was
when there was already a decision but nothing had been
kind of formally communicated of a new registration process for
international organizations that started already in twenty twenty four, where
(09:19):
the civil administration you know, announced to our respective organizations
that there will be a.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
New registration procedures. Is really simple.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Administration is really civil administration, and so it was only
kind of ten months later that the criteria was kind
of presented to us, and only a year later that
the criteria actually came into effect. But in that time
where they were announcing these new measures, there were lots
of visa denials. Permits of course, were completely non existent
(09:51):
for humanitarians. So for example, you know, I had a
permit to Gaza for six months, that of course stopped.
All of our staff in the West Bank had permit
it's to travel both to Gaza and in Israel. Those
stopped on the seventh of October, and say, and vice versa.
Are our colleagues in Gaza who had permits to come
to Israel to travel through the Allen b Bridge because
(10:12):
of course, you know, policies don't have an airport, so
they have to travel through Allen B to travel through Amen.
Those also stopped. So that's one other kind of like
you know, measure that was taken against international organizations. And
then when the when the new registration rules were made
public and the criteria was made public, there was a
(10:33):
new there's a new ministry set up called the Ministry
of Dyspora and something affairs, I know, dyspora affairs. I
forget the full name of the ministry. But it's it's
an interministerial committee that you know, it's made of basically thucks.
You know, if you look at the background of some
of these people that are in the committee, I mean,
you know, it's and they are now deciding of the
(10:55):
registration of international organizations. And the criteria is onerous, it's political,
it's big, and you know, even even it crosses some
of our red lines in terms of organization. I mean,
one of one of the I think the most contentious
criteria is submitting staff lists and all of the information
(11:16):
of our staff to the Israeli authorities, which is something
we never had to do before.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
It's not something that.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Is actually in any other context, it's not abnormal for
an authority or country or state to ask, you know,
who is your staff working for this organization you're seeking
registration from. But obviously, because of the you know, unrecedented
number of humanitarian workers that have been targeted and indiscriminately
targeted as well in Gaza, We've got more than four
(11:44):
hundred humanitarian workers killed. At this point, we are unable
to submit our staff lists because of you know, we
have no guarantees of protection, even though we have guarantees
under you know.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
International law.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
This is not applied when it comes to Gaza and
in Israel's condo in the hostilities against humanity and workers
in the humanity in space. So that's one of the criteria,
but there's also other criteria where, for example, we would
be revoked our registration or not re registered if we
are seen to support some of the designated organizations that
(12:16):
were designated early on, which most of our organizations do.
So many of us are facing about to face basically
being deregistered in Israel and losing our presence in Jerusalem,
which is you know, has such a big implications, not
because you know, we're so desperate to have presence in Jerusalem,
but because it says a lot about what the future
(12:36):
of East Jerusalem means. Because you're moving Pherwa, you're removing
the INGOs, and you're moving all the program and the
support that goes to organizations that are operating in Jerusalem,
providing legal services to people that are losing their homes,
that are getting their homes demolished on a daily basis,
legal services for settler attacks that happen also in East Jerusalem,
(12:57):
and school provision of school service educational items, educational activities,
summer caps, you know, I mean, et cetera, et cetera.
The list goes on that will be removed. And that's
kind of you know, it's working now in parallel with
the annexation kind of plan that Israel has been threatening
and implementing at the same time, so you know, everything
(13:19):
is moving towards this annexation. It also has fast implications
because many of our organizations operate in Area C, because
the most vulnerable communities, you know, are in area of
SE and so we always you know, we as part
of our programming is obviously reaching the most vulnerable Palestinians
and those that need to help and support the most
and so annexing Area CE and do you registering at
(13:41):
the same time, do registering us from Israel means that
we will also have very a lot of difficulty assing
these communities and accessing areas. See as we mention here
in organizations, we've not had visas for international staff for
since the beginning of the war. And then when you
look at you know, Gaza, So this is kind of
like in the West Bank and what is how it's
(14:01):
evolving in the West Bank. But then you know, the
fact that we would be deregistered would effectively mean that
we cannot operate in Gaza any because you have to
have an Israeli registration in order to be able to
bring goods in inside Gaza, and so if you're deregistered,
you can't bring in goods into Gaza. The strigulation of
(14:29):
the Humanitarians civic spaces is all encompassing in Gaza. Of course,
it looks like our materials have been systematically and deliberately denied, rejected, delayed,
you know, over the course of the last twenty months.
But of course, adding it's worse since March second, when
Israel imposed it's total sea jong Gaza and basically has
completely sidelined the un IGO's and policy in the civil society.
(14:51):
And since then we've not been able to enter anything
in Gaza, and I doubt that we will be able
to enter anything moving forward, especially that the registration kind
of window ends in September. Beginning September, that's when we'll
finally know who is going to be registered who's not.
But I expect for an organization like OXBAM that's part
of the registration process, it's very vague. So we don't
(15:13):
know how they will apply it, but there's something about
basically calling again, you know, calling out or speaking out
or calling for accountability of individual soldiers and members of
the IDEF. So what that means, I don't know. But
we call for accountability every day because it's part of
our mandate. We're not just an operational organization. We're a
rights based organization, and so we have a mandate to also,
(15:34):
you know, where we witness violations of human rights or
of international law, it is our mandate to speak out
on it. And so there's no operations without that. So
that's where we're at right now. It's it's an incredibly
difficult space. It is of course deliberate. This is a
deliberate policy of Israel. That is, you know, it's carried
out against the kind of human humanitarians, civic space for years.
(15:57):
It's also there's another law, there's an a law that's
against Israel a human rights organization where it will start
taxing it's really human rights organization that are receiving foreign
funding by fifty to eighty percent or something like that.
So it's just it's it's you know, it's deliberate, it's
thematic we have been the only ones in Gaza that
have been able to actually report independently on what's happening
(16:21):
in Gaza, like the humanitarians happen, not even the journalists,
because of course, you know, I can argue that, yes,
Palestine journalists are independent, but you know, the most of
the world would probably disagree with that. So really, I
mean the independent kind of eyes and the neutral eyes,
or let's say, part impartial eyes, I won't say neutral
happened the humanitarians and un agencies. Sidelining us means that
(16:44):
we'll also see a reduction of quality reporting on what's
actually happening in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
So it's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
It's an attack on our ability to even understand the
level of the problem. Absolutely that is being left in
the wake of this tour, which of course is on going.
But also I think it's really important, I mean the
things you just described, I think it's really important for
listeners to understand this the aid question, the question of
these humanitarian organizations and what's happening to them, whether it's
the registration through the Ministry of the Aspera Affairs, and
(17:14):
I think combating anti Semitism is.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Its full name, that's it should have red.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
So yeah, I mean there are so many problems with
this ministry, and it has been even internally criticized by
by Tel Aviv University for example.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah yeah, or even actually members of the government itself.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
By the way, I think there was a there was
something about somebody in Israeli government not attending the inter
Ministerial Committee meeting, you know, because it was wanting to
be associated to it.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So yeah, okay, it's a very problematic committee.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
But I mean if this kind of committee is responsible
for registering Internet you know, international organizations and humanitarian organizations.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Then there's all the blockade of aid.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
All of these are parts of the same ethnic cleansing
strategy that we're seeing in Gaza, whatether you want to
call it ethnic cleansing or genocide. You know, people are
being eradicated. Yeah, we're seeing large scale displacements in the
West Bank, and as you mentioned, if these organizations also
stop existing in Jerusalem, we'll see Jerusalem next. Yeah, not
piecemeal the way that we've been seeing it possible, absolutely,
(18:16):
you know, a more aggressive way. And so I really
think it's important to kind of underscore for listeners that
this is part and parcel of an annexation and ethnic
cleansing plan that people from the Religious Zionist Party have
been saying since the early twenty tens. Bazilos Mootrich, Finance
minister today had the decisive plan that said, you know,
(18:39):
you either surrender or transfer, and we're at that level.
They are transferring, they are making sure that that happens.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
And they are in the West Bank as well.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I mean, you know, it's quiet and all eyes are
on Gaza, but I mean we've seen displacement of entire
communities in the last few weeks only, yeah, let alone
the largest numbers have forcibly displaced Palestinian since nineteen sixty
seven in the West Bank this year.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
And in the refugee camps that have been attacked exactly, so.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
You know, and and again, I mean, you know, you
can look at the history of smear campaigns against Ohawa
by the Israeli authorities. I mean that's just in itself.
You know, the services that provide you know, we have
to re emphasize like education, health services, I mean, you know, shelter,
oh No what provides key services that the policy authority
(19:28):
has no ability to respond to. What is going to
happen to all of these people when you know and already.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Know what.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
So listeners, electricity cut off and real love. This is
our life.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, so we might have to restart some of that
and that's fine.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, So did you want to pick up where you lost?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I was? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
I mean the point is is that this is, you know,
a longstanding policy by Israel. It's just like very much
accelerated like every other policy if theirs when it comes
to you know, forcible displacement, collective punishment, you know, detensions.
I mean, everything is at a record high and accelerating
so quickly with this. You know, right wing, far right
(20:11):
wing government that's you know, has zero checks and balances,
zero nobody holds them accountable to anything, and so you
know they're able to get away with all of this.
So I mean my sense is that you know, very
soon you will not no longer see kind of the
long standing organizations that have been here for decades that
(20:31):
have very much understood the context very well and have
understood that it's impossible to do the work that we
do without also bearing witness and speaking out on what
we're witnessing. And I think the UN and it's in
that way, you know, even the United Nations, where in
Pelstine has made sure that the States committed to that
(20:52):
mandate because of how important it is to speak out
on what you're seeing around you. I think like that's
purely I think, like, you know, we're the only ones
that are able to witness and record independently what we're
seeing on a daily day basis. And I think the
UN has been incredible in keeping a record of that.
(21:13):
I mean, I think they started recording in two thousand
and eight, so it's like eighteen years now almost of
monitoring violations all across the territory. And if it wasn't
for the work that the UN has done in that,
we wouldn't be able to say that there is a
genocide being carried out in Gaza, or that the risk
(21:34):
of ethnic cleansing has risen exponentially in the West Bank.
The reason why we're able to say this is because
we're able to see the patterns and the data, and
you know, you can contest the data. But you know,
even you were talking about the IPC, the IBC is
not even reflective of what's really happening, and they say
it themselves, but you know, of course, the media, the
(21:54):
way the media kind of focuses on what the results
because you know, you only have time for sound bites.
But if we read the IPC.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Alerts, it's clear that one they're always delayed, so they're
always talking about a time that's already passed and we're way,
we don't beyond that.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
And two it says that it doesn't have access to Gaza.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
But look at the testimonies, you know, just like just
reading the testimonies that some of our organizations have recorded
in the last week, just talking about our own colleagues
and how they're facing starvation themselves. I mean, I think
the testimonies speak to themselves on what is happening in Gaza.
And I don't need the IPC to tell me that
there's a classification four or five. It's never going to
(22:35):
declare famine when it's not there, Like, there's never going
to be a time where the IPC because that's not
even the role of the IPC. The role of the
IPCs not to declare famine. The role the IPC is
just to collect the data and publish the data and
then it's the role of the UN or another international
body to do so. So we're not going to see
if I'm at declaration, because we don't have access and
(22:55):
so you know, we're we're not going to be able
to say that with confident. It's because the IPC is
never going to be able to publish that data.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
But I don't think it matters.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
I think what matters is what we're seeing on the world,
what's being reported, and you know, I mean it's undeniable
really by the pictures themselves. I mean that the videos
and the pictures that are coming out of Gaza just
speak for themselves really, So it's definitely unprecedented times for us,
and it's going to be a very very interesting and frightening,
terrifying here to be frank.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, No, I mean, as I said at the beginning,
And there are of course critiques also of the limitations
of the UN, but this idea that they are wanting
organizations as a condition of registering them to somehow not
bear witness to what is happening and not to write
(23:46):
reports about what's happening, it's a way of hobbling the
ability of actually creating policies like if you want to
talk about famine, or if you want to talk about poverty,
as Oxgram does, how could you solve it without talking
about the root cause? In every way, in every direction,
the Israeli government is attempting to hobble the ability of
(24:08):
international organizations of the past, Indians themselves to be able
to solve the root causes of these problems. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Absolutely, I mean it will have to be fine, creative ways,
just like you know, our Palstinian Civil Society partners that
you know have been also designated, have had to find,
you know, ways to continue doing their work. But you know,
I mean even then, you know, they've lost funding, they've
had to reduce their operations, they've had to reduce their
field officers that go to the field and do this work.
(24:37):
So I mean, I I it's it's so uncertain, but
I think the fact that many of these organizations have
been here for so long understand so deeply the context.
I think organizations will also do whatever they can in
order to ensure that they continue the important work here
and find ways to continue to work.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I don't know how. It's really new time for us,
like we've.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Never been there before, so we don't know what it
looks like how we're going to be able to continue
our work. But we're we're committed to that, so we
will find, you know whatever. I don't want to say
loophole because you know there are none, but we'll find
whatever way to continue to continue kind of being here
and being present and remaining remaining present because I think
(25:23):
it's also part of our commitment to the work that
we've been doing in OPT for decades.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
So yeah, yeah, I think maybe we should end on
a discussion about the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. I mean, I've
already mentioned it in a previous episode, so I encourage
listeners to look into that, but I you know, I
think it's important we discuss what is this foundation and
(25:51):
what is the impact that has had on people in
Gaza and on international organizations that are already doing this work.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah, okay, the GHI for Gaza Unentitarian Foundation SLASHDHF. I
don't like talking about it as such because it's the issue.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Of course, is that's one of the issues. But GHF
is part of many actors, okay, And it's not GHF.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
GHF is a facade for many actors that you know,
the US and Israelis isn't Israeli plan. And I don't
think we need to we cannot, you know, I know
there's US military actors in ghf At, you know, the
border and shooting at people. But this isn't is reelly plant, okay,
and we have to dub.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It as such.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
This plan actually came into We started hearing about.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
This plan a year and a half ago.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
It was maybe in May last year we saw the
General Islands plan on what they wanted to do in
the north when they started the ethnic cleansing campaign in
the north of Gaza, where they besieged the north and
tried to force everybody's south. The idea then was already
they had already were already hearing about something called humanitarian bubbles.
And the bubbles are the sites of what it's what's
(27:01):
what's become the sites, right, But this idea of what
has been floating around for for more than eighteen months.
It's just that nothing kind of transpired until May. I
guess that's when May and the operation started. So it's
really launched. This as an authorization mechanism. This is how
it was originally kind of and that would expand. Basically
(27:23):
is really military control over how AID enters moves within
and is distributed inside Gaza. And of course I mean
that and on its own is a clear attempt to
instrumentalize humanitarian aid. So you know, and I think it's it's,
it's it's it's very important to clarify you know, our
organizations we operate and the extremely rigorous standards and mechanisms
(27:48):
where we're sure the aid is not diverted. And I
think a diversion, you know, it's been talked about like
humas eight divers A diversion exists everywhere. Its exists in
every crisis we work in. Like it's something that is
part of you know, crisis mode, like this is where
when there's a crisis, when there's chaos, that's where there's
space for informal actors to start popping up. So it's
(28:11):
a symptom of every crisis around the world. And so
you know, it's not just a Gaza thing. So we
have totocols on how we can ensure that a diversion
doesn't happen in operations. And of course, as humanitarians, we
would never accept military or profit driven intermediaries overriding what
(28:32):
we call principled aid delivery because it basically means that
you're expanding military control over aid operations by an actual
party to the conflict you know, which, of course, risks
that aid will never reach the most vulnerable you know,
of course at a time when it was most needed.
So from our perspective, there is no scenario where we
(28:55):
would accept any attempts to militarize and privatize humanitarian aid,
whether it's a Gaza or anywhere else, because such actions
actually violate international humanitarian law, but also they undermine the
core principles of humanitarian law, which are a partiality, independence
in humanity. These are principles that guide all of our work.
(29:15):
And of course what is the most dangerous about this
model is not only the massacres that have occurred near
daily at these food distribution sites run by the GJEP
and other actors. It's that it's set such a dangerous
precedent where occupying powers around the world will now be
(29:35):
able to dictate the terms of aid based on their
political agendas and their military goals. That is, what's effectively
now happened, is that if it's happened in Gaza, why
can it not happen in Uganda and d Orsk and Sudan.
(29:57):
And I want to also take it a little back.
Let's talk about the peer. The peer last year is
exactly the same.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
It's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
It's an international company called fog Bow run by former
US military veterans and soldiers and others, other actors that
you know, spent three hundred and twenty million dollars on
a floating pier that brought virtually nothing in and in
fact was used for one rescue mission, rescue operation by
(30:29):
special forces where they entered. I think it was the
way that camp, the refugee camp at the time and
were able to obviously, yeah, rescue hostages, but kill I mean,
you know, a dozens in that operation using the peer,
and hence why we're like we do not we would
distance ourselves and from the beginning distance ourselves from the peer.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
There's no difference with the distribution sites.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
It's the same kind of idea that with logistics we
can we can address a political issue. Issue of Gaza
is not an issue of logistics something you went or
I gios don't know how to do the work policies.
So pelus, the use of society has been responding to
the civilian needs in Gaza from before the war, right,
you know, eighty percent of the Gaza population was dependent
(31:15):
on humanitarian assistance before the war. So, I mean, you know,
it's not that we didn't know how to do it,
it's that we were prevented from doing it.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
We were deliberately prevented from doing it. So it's a
political decision.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
It's not a logistical decision that prevents us from doing
our work in Gaza. And so branch thing Israel control
over who receives the aid, where they received the aid,
and from who has basically turned what is relief what
should be relieved to the civilian population. It's actually a
tool of coersion because what we saw is massacres, people
being shot indiscriminately at I mean, we heard doctor Nick
(31:52):
Maynard yesterday. Yesterday he came back from Gaza a week
ago where we've heard of children being shot in the
testicle at these distribution sites, you know, and not one
he mentioned on the same date he saw half a
dozen boys with the same injury, sniper shots in the
(32:12):
testicles at food distribution sites. So what's happened now is
that what Israel has done is that it blurred the
line between what humanitarian assistance is, what a military objective is,
and of course putting the civilian Palestine civilians and aid
workers as well, because aid workers we know of some
of our colleagues in different organizations that but even themselves
have had to go to these food distribution sites because
(32:34):
there's nothing and we're unable to even support our own
staff at risks. And of course, I mean this entire
system has eroded any protections that are guaranteed to aid
workers and humanitarian responses under international law and under the
Geneva Conventions. So it's not only that it killed people
and that it's harmed Palestinians, but it actually it's also
(32:57):
a complete disregard or international law, complete disregard of international law.
And at the same time, I think what people fail
to remember is that at the same time as this
plan of the distribution sites was set being set up
in the south, at the same time Israel every two
days was evacuating forcibly displaying basically the population towards the
(33:22):
south right, And in less than two months we got
almost one thousand Peltines that were killed, but also an
immense movement of the population towards the south because that's
the only place that they had food, right, So you know,
this is not protection, this is complete coercion. You know,
when you move aid into fence, supervise spaces under militaries,
(33:43):
really military control. Frankly, and what we saw from the
pictures recall some of the darkest chapters of humanitarian failure
of our of our history.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
It's not protection, it's coercion.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
And you know, no countries, nobody should ever support model
that is basically treating civilians as prisoners. And that's not
what a humanitarian aid is about. Humanitarian responses have to
be guided by international law. It has to remain voluntary,
it has to be grounded in the dignity of the people,
and it has to be delivered impartially not shaped by
(34:17):
Israel's occupation or israel siege or Israel's military control. So
not only has this scheme reinforced military control over the
Goss's ship, it has completely dehumanized Palestinians by design, like
Palastinians are only worth a box of food. That's that's
what basically essentially what has happened is that we have
(34:37):
reduced a humanitarian response that addresses hospitals, medical care, water, sanitation, waste,
water shelter.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
It goes right to dignity to a box of flour.
You know, that you can get killed getting.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Or you get killed.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
And not only that, it's a first come, first serf.
You know, it's whoever's the strongest. It's the survival of
the fittest. That's not why I humanitarian A Day is about.
We're supposed to meet the most vulnerable. We need to
reach the pregnant moms, the people with disabilities, the number
of record number of amputees, and Gaza the record number
(35:14):
of disabled people than Gaza right now.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Children Half of Gaza are children.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
They are part of some of the most vulnerable sections
of society.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Age should be going to them. They don't have to.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
They shouldn't have to come to us walk for you know,
I mean some people have said twenty kilometers they've had
to walk to go to these distribution sides. In the
middle of the night, in the sand dunes, they have
to duck because otherwise they might get shot by sniper shot.
And then when the gates of hell open of these
you know, fence zones, whatever you want to call them.
(35:45):
I don't even like calling them distribution sites because they're
not distribution sizes. It implies that there's some sort of
like system to it.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
There's no system there's literally the gates to hell and
then everybody flows into the you know, floods, and we've
heard of people carrying nine to protect themselves because they're
getting looted because it's not enough of course food. And
then there are gangs that are being weaponized by the YOP.
You so, and actually what I what I was saying
(36:11):
to people is that actually what GDTF has created is
created the perfect it's the perfect recipe for armed gangs
and a diversion to occur. Like it's actually like providing
the perfect environment for these informal actors, gangs, criminals to
prosper to you know, this is this is you're creating
that kind of environment. Because let's just be very directed.
(36:34):
This is not about aid, no, of course not no,
It's about coersion. It's about coercion. I mean, as you
mentioned from the very beginning, it was about sequestering Palestinians
and they said it actually and by the way they
said it, it's really war. Cabinet has said that, you know,
and it's like we have to take things that face values.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Sometimes they said it. They've been saying it for the
last year. We just you know, waited until it happened
on the ground to be able to now say it
and confirm it. But this was their plan from the beginning,
and there was nothing implied. It was very explicit, right.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
No, I mean, very very clear, and it really frustrates
me personally because you know, Arab media, Palestinian journalists, Palestinians
on the ground testimonies would would say, we're being arrested
at these sites, they're using facial recognition, they're very much
politicizing AID And it took forever for us to be
(37:29):
even be able to say it, to even be able
to report on it, until Western media sources confirmed yesterday
a number of children were released saw that from being
arrested at these AIG sites, and I couldn't mention that
in things that I wrote because they didn't believe Palestinian testing.
I mean, the GHF contractor themselves themselves have admitted to
(37:52):
what is happening and everything that we've been seeing and saying,
and you know, and warning, I mean, you know, i'd
like to say as well. I mean I want to
I want to underscore actuallyanitarians have been underlining this very
very explicitly to everybody since before they were even set
so you know, I can seek for the clear conscious
that we did what we needed and we could you know,
what we could do, and we did warn that this
(38:14):
would happen and this would be the result, and now
here we are right. No, I mean, it's it's absolutely
important calling. So I want to mention to listeners. I
will put in the show notes a lot of you know,
these citations, the UN reporting that close to a thousand
people have died at these sites, the doctor Nick Maynard
(38:35):
speaking to Channel four News in Britain about what he saw.
I also want to point listeners to a volume that
was released called Suppressing Descent, edited by Zaha Hassan and h. A. Hellier,
because full disclosure, I do have a chapter in that book,
but it's about the shrinking civic space prior to October
seven and and and the dynamics that we have we
(38:58):
have seen, you know, basically playing out at this point.
Thank you so much, Bushel for coming and speaking with
us under such severe circumstances and explaining I think, really
succinctly the dangers of this moment, because what is happening
in Gaza will change the world.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
It will change everywhere, and it already is.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I think, you know, I would tell listeners go look
at AP's article on fog Bow and Uganda and Sudan.
I'm already seeing it. It's not even that it will
change the world. We're already seeing the precedent that Gaza
has set for other humanitarying crises and for these military
actors and private contractors to profit from misery like that's
that's essentially what is happening.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
That's happening.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
So you know, I would also direct you to that
article from AP that came out a couple of weeks
ago about the same companies operating in Gaza and you know,
being complicit in the atrocities that we're seeing unfolded Gaza
now operating in other contexts and prices humanitearing.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Crises really terrible, breaking the world.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, I know. Yeah, Well, thank you so much and
thanks then, thank.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
You and hopefully see you soon and talk to you soon, Michel.
Take care, it could happen. Here is a production of
cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
You can now find sources for it could happen here.
Listened directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. My
name is Daniel Kurd. I'm a writer, analyst, and researcher
of Palestinian and Arab politics. I'm an associate professor of
political science and a senior nonresident fellow at the Arab
Center Washington. Today we'll be speaking with Bushracherdi, the policy
lead for Oxfam. Our discussion will cover oxfam's work in
the occupied Palsingian territories and the current crisis in a
(00:29):
distribution we are recording end of July July twenty seventh,
twenty twenty five. NPR reported in May of this year
that Gaza has already reached Phase four of the Integrated
Food Security Phase classification. The IPC just coordinated out of
the UN Food and Agriculture Organization and an organization called
(00:50):
the Famine Early Warning Systems Network. So what does this
all mean? Phase four means emergency. As NPR rights in
there may report hardships, deepened, food gaps widen, and people
resort to really extreme forms of coping. So the Famine
Early Warning Systems Network does not have a presence in
Gaza at the moment. This is their best guess Phase
(01:13):
five is when they declare a famine. We're seeing very
terrible images in the media and on our phone screens
about the level of deprivation in Gaza at the moment
because aid has been blocked off by the Israeli government.
Writing for Al Jazero just a few days ago, former
UN official Munzakhrane accuses the UN of not declaring famine
(01:34):
despite overwhelming evidence, because he says officials are worried about
their careers and possibly worried about antagonizing the US. But
regardless of whether it's Phase four or Phase five, the
situation in Gaza is dire. In July twenty seventh, today
when we're recording, there's reporting that there might be air drops,
that the trucks on the Egyptian Wader are moving towards
(01:56):
Gaza after the Israeli government has received a lot of
pressure or the ongoing aid crisis. But of course that
may be too late for Mini gouzs as I said,
we're speaking with today who will talk to us about
her work from the vantage point of Oxgam Bush.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So let's begin with first describing ox GAM's work and
occupied Palsonate territories.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Sure, we've been here since nineteen fifty six. We have
offices in Ramala and Jerusalem and Gaza. And AUXAM was
originally set up as an organization to fight famine, you know,
the first kind of famines that we've seen globally's that's
originally why AUXLAM was got to set up. And then
so a lot of its programming is around water and sanitation,
(02:42):
food security, lively goods, working with farmers. A big part
of our program is water and sanitation, helping for example,
farming communities, providing them with irrigation pipelines. You know, it
could be agricultural inputs needed for growing their crops. It
could be technical support to farmers to support them and
growing for example, vegetables. How do you grow crops of
(03:04):
vegetables around date trees? You know, So it's kind of
that kind of work. In terms of the food security
component of that, we have a big part of our
work is with women's organizations, women's cooperatives, women's farming cooperatives
as well, especially in the West Bank. And then a
lot of a lot of work with kind of the
(03:25):
relevant ministries and relevant trade unions on for example, agricultural insurance,
so getting you know, trying to get insurance for farmers
in case they're crops or are are ruined or sabotaged
or damaged for example by settler violence, et cetera. So
there's kind of like a piloting kind of program where
we're looking at the potential of providing insurance to the
(03:48):
farming sector here and palastline.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Other things could be could look like, you.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Know, small grants to start a small kind of business
women for examples, women's cooperatives and farming. I mean, so
a lot of it worked like this, and most of
our operations are actually run through partners. So we have
about ninety partners kind of across the occupied file sting territory,
(04:13):
and about eighty to ninety hoard of our operations are
actually completely implemented through partners. But of course, after seventh
of October, our programming really drastically kind of shifted to
fully humanitarian, where you know, we are now basically providing
hygiene kits, food parcels, some agricultural inputs as well, where
(04:34):
we could you know, set in Gaza it looks like
setting up latrines, hand washing state like mobile stations. It
can be like water trucking. I mean it's it's changed,
you know, depending on the access that we've had. So
for example, since March this year, we've not been able
to enter anything because of Israel's full total siege on Gaza,
(04:54):
so nothing kind of entered. So our operations looked like
psychosocial so port to women, young girls and shelters trucking
water from one area to another where we felt like
these communities potentially needed water or had a little access
to water, it could look it looked like a cash
for work. We do a big, big, big, big part
(05:15):
of our both now in the West Bank and in
Gaza is providing cash for work. So for example, we
have daily workers that will remove solid waste with their
bare hands unfortunately because there's no materials to remove waste
in Gaza. But then they would receive like kind of
daily daily rates in order to get paid. And then
(05:35):
there's like cash vouchers for the most vulnerable, where they
can you know, have a voucher in a store and
they can you know, purchase items that we've read for
example with a store owner to that you know, people
can purchase with our with our kind of cards. So
it's very versatile, versatile and especially in last years, had
to adapt and change, you know, very quickly and flexibly
(05:58):
depending on the situation with available in the markets. But
that's kind of like what our programming looks like across
the territory.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, thank you for explaining that, and it brings me
to I mean, you touched on a little bit, but
it brings me to a second question that I think
is important for listeners to to understand is how has
the war in post October seventh really impacted that the
restrictions that is really government is imposing.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
So we know there's a stage in Gaza, but also
in the West Bank.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Absolutely there is so much happening. How has that impacted
ox FAM's work. It's completely restricted US and not just US,
it's all of the international kind of sector, including UN agencies.
I mean, we know what they did with in Owa.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well maybe explain that.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, I'll, I mean Israel, the government of Israel's kind
of attacks or let's say, attacks on the humanitarian civic space.
It's been a long standing policy of THEIRS and started
well before seventh of October. It's gotten just you know,
much tighter, much more restrictive since but you know, this
(07:03):
goes back decades. I would say kind of the most
notorious development in shrinking space, we call it shrinking space,
is twenty twenty one when they declared six organizations Palestinian
civil society organizations, mostly our human rights organizations, so some
of the most notorious and well known human rights organizations
where they're designated as terrorist organizations. So that was kind
(07:27):
of the first big, you know development where many of
those partners, those six partners were actually partners of international organizations.
So you know, we found ourselves kind of advocating for
continuing our support to these six despite the designation by
Israel never you know, and there was never, of course
evidence provided by the Israeli government as to what evidence
(07:49):
they had, why would they deem these organizations terrorist organizations,
But you know, they continued to operate under very very
difficult circums stances. Their offices were rated, their assets were confiscated,
but you know they're still operational and we're still certainly
supporting them. And of course, you know, shrinking space or
(08:11):
the restrictions on humanitarian civic space, it translates into, you know,
into so many different restrictions. It could be you know,
restrictions on permits, restrictions on what crossings you're able to
use as a humanitarian you know, whether you can go
through that crossing or another. It can be visa restrictions,
and we started seeing the visa restrictions even before the war.
(08:33):
And after the war, of course, everything kind of changed,
and now we're facing and I'm talking more about like
legal restrictions in terms of our work, and then I
can talk more about like the siege and the actual
blockade of humanitarian aid into Gaza, which is you know,
effectively completely restricted and our operations and has dismantled really
(08:55):
the humanitarian sector and in its satirety and has reverberating
impacts to the rest of the terrritory. But for us,
I think the first kind of sign of turmoil was
when there was already a decision but nothing had been
kind of formally communicated of a new registration process for
international organizations that started already in twenty twenty four, where
(09:19):
the civil administration you know, announced to our respective organizations
that there will be a.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
New registration procedures. Is really simple.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Administration is really civil administration, and so it was only
kind of ten months later that the criteria was kind
of presented to us, and only a year later that
the criteria actually came into effect. But in that time
where they were announcing these new measures, there were lots
of visa denials. Permits of course, were completely non existent
(09:51):
for humanitarians. So for example, you know, I had a
permit to Gaza for six months, that of course stopped.
All of our staff in the West Bank had permit
it's to travel both to Gaza and in Israel. Those
stopped on the seventh of October, and say, and vice versa.
Are our colleagues in Gaza who had permits to come
to Israel to travel through the Allen b Bridge because
(10:12):
of course, you know, policies don't have an airport, so
they have to travel through Allen B to travel through Amen.
Those also stopped. So that's one other kind of like
you know, measure that was taken against international organizations. And
then when the when the new registration rules were made
public and the criteria was made public, there was a
(10:33):
new there's a new ministry set up called the Ministry
of Dyspora and something affairs, I know, dyspora affairs. I
forget the full name of the ministry. But it's it's
an interministerial committee that you know, it's made of basically thucks.
You know, if you look at the background of some
of these people that are in the committee, I mean,
you know, it's and they are now deciding of the
(10:55):
registration of international organizations. And the criteria is onerous, it's political,
it's big, and you know, even even it crosses some
of our red lines in terms of organization. I mean,
one of one of the I think the most contentious
criteria is submitting staff lists and all of the information
(11:16):
of our staff to the Israeli authorities, which is something
we never had to do before.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
It's not something that.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Is actually in any other context, it's not abnormal for
an authority or country or state to ask, you know,
who is your staff working for this organization you're seeking
registration from. But obviously, because of the you know, unrecedented
number of humanitarian workers that have been targeted and indiscriminately
targeted as well in Gaza, We've got more than four
(11:44):
hundred humanitarian workers killed. At this point, we are unable
to submit our staff lists because of you know, we
have no guarantees of protection, even though we have guarantees
under you know.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
International law.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
This is not applied when it comes to Gaza and
in Israel's condo in the hostilities against humanity and workers
in the humanity in space. So that's one of the criteria,
but there's also other criteria where, for example, we would
be revoked our registration or not re registered if we
are seen to support some of the designated organizations that
(12:16):
were designated early on, which most of our organizations do.
So many of us are facing about to face basically
being deregistered in Israel and losing our presence in Jerusalem,
which is you know, has such a big implications, not
because you know, we're so desperate to have presence in Jerusalem,
but because it says a lot about what the future
(12:36):
of East Jerusalem means. Because you're moving Pherwa, you're removing
the INGOs, and you're moving all the program and the
support that goes to organizations that are operating in Jerusalem,
providing legal services to people that are losing their homes,
that are getting their homes demolished on a daily basis,
legal services for settler attacks that happen also in East Jerusalem,
(12:57):
and school provision of school service educational items, educational activities,
summer caps, you know, I mean, et cetera, et cetera.
The list goes on that will be removed. And that's
kind of you know, it's working now in parallel with
the annexation kind of plan that Israel has been threatening
and implementing at the same time, so you know, everything
(13:19):
is moving towards this annexation. It also has fast implications
because many of our organizations operate in Area C, because
the most vulnerable communities, you know, are in area of
SE and so we always you know, we as part
of our programming is obviously reaching the most vulnerable Palestinians
and those that need to help and support the most
and so annexing Area CE and do you registering at
(13:41):
the same time, do registering us from Israel means that
we will also have very a lot of difficulty assing
these communities and accessing areas. See as we mention here
in organizations, we've not had visas for international staff for
since the beginning of the war. And then when you
look at you know, Gaza, So this is kind of
like in the West Bank and what is how it's
(14:01):
evolving in the West Bank. But then you know, the
fact that we would be deregistered would effectively mean that
we cannot operate in Gaza any because you have to
have an Israeli registration in order to be able to
bring goods in inside Gaza, and so if you're deregistered,
you can't bring in goods into Gaza. The strigulation of
(14:29):
the Humanitarians civic spaces is all encompassing in Gaza. Of course,
it looks like our materials have been systematically and deliberately denied, rejected, delayed,
you know, over the course of the last twenty months.
But of course, adding it's worse since March second, when
Israel imposed it's total sea jong Gaza and basically has
completely sidelined the un IGO's and policy in the civil society.
(14:51):
And since then we've not been able to enter anything
in Gaza, and I doubt that we will be able
to enter anything moving forward, especially that the registration kind
of window ends in September. Beginning September, that's when we'll
finally know who is going to be registered who's not.
But I expect for an organization like OXBAM that's part
of the registration process, it's very vague. So we don't
(15:13):
know how they will apply it, but there's something about
basically calling again, you know, calling out or speaking out
or calling for accountability of individual soldiers and members of
the IDEF. So what that means, I don't know. But
we call for accountability every day because it's part of
our mandate. We're not just an operational organization. We're a
rights based organization, and so we have a mandate to also,
(15:34):
you know, where we witness violations of human rights or
of international law, it is our mandate to speak out
on it. And so there's no operations without that. So
that's where we're at right now. It's it's an incredibly
difficult space. It is of course deliberate. This is a
deliberate policy of Israel. That is, you know, it's carried
out against the kind of human humanitarians, civic space for years.
(15:57):
It's also there's another law, there's an a law that's
against Israel a human rights organization where it will start
taxing it's really human rights organization that are receiving foreign
funding by fifty to eighty percent or something like that.
So it's just it's it's you know, it's deliberate, it's
thematic we have been the only ones in Gaza that
have been able to actually report independently on what's happening
(16:21):
in Gaza, like the humanitarians happen, not even the journalists,
because of course, you know, I can argue that, yes,
Palestine journalists are independent, but you know, the most of
the world would probably disagree with that. So really, I
mean the independent kind of eyes and the neutral eyes,
or let's say, part impartial eyes, I won't say neutral
happened the humanitarians and un agencies. Sidelining us means that
(16:44):
we'll also see a reduction of quality reporting on what's
actually happening in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
So it's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
It's an attack on our ability to even understand the
level of the problem. Absolutely that is being left in
the wake of this tour, which of course is on going.
But also I think it's really important, I mean the
things you just described, I think it's really important for
listeners to understand this the aid question, the question of
these humanitarian organizations and what's happening to them, whether it's
the registration through the Ministry of the Aspera Affairs, and
(17:14):
I think combating anti Semitism is.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Its full name, that's it should have red.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
So yeah, I mean there are so many problems with
this ministry, and it has been even internally criticized by
by Tel Aviv University for example.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah yeah, or even actually members of the government itself.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
By the way, I think there was a there was
something about somebody in Israeli government not attending the inter
Ministerial Committee meeting, you know, because it was wanting to
be associated to it.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So yeah, okay, it's a very problematic committee.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
But I mean if this kind of committee is responsible
for registering Internet you know, international organizations and humanitarian organizations.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Then there's all the blockade of aid.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
All of these are parts of the same ethnic cleansing
strategy that we're seeing in Gaza, whatether you want to
call it ethnic cleansing or genocide. You know, people are
being eradicated. Yeah, we're seeing large scale displacements in the
West Bank, and as you mentioned, if these organizations also
stop existing in Jerusalem, we'll see Jerusalem next. Yeah, not
piecemeal the way that we've been seeing it possible, absolutely,
(18:16):
you know, a more aggressive way. And so I really
think it's important to kind of underscore for listeners that
this is part and parcel of an annexation and ethnic
cleansing plan that people from the Religious Zionist Party have
been saying since the early twenty tens. Bazilos Mootrich, Finance
minister today had the decisive plan that said, you know,
(18:39):
you either surrender or transfer, and we're at that level.
They are transferring, they are making sure that that happens.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
And they are in the West Bank as well.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I mean, you know, it's quiet and all eyes are
on Gaza, but I mean we've seen displacement of entire
communities in the last few weeks only, yeah, let alone
the largest numbers have forcibly displaced Palestinian since nineteen sixty
seven in the West Bank this year.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
And in the refugee camps that have been attacked exactly, so.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
You know, and and again, I mean, you know, you
can look at the history of smear campaigns against Ohawa
by the Israeli authorities. I mean that's just in itself.
You know, the services that provide you know, we have
to re emphasize like education, health services, I mean, you know, shelter,
oh No what provides key services that the policy authority
(19:28):
has no ability to respond to. What is going to
happen to all of these people when you know and already.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Know what.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
So listeners, electricity cut off and real love. This is
our life.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, so we might have to restart some of that
and that's fine.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, So did you want to pick up where you lost?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I was? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
I mean the point is is that this is, you know,
a longstanding policy by Israel. It's just like very much
accelerated like every other policy if theirs when it comes
to you know, forcible displacement, collective punishment, you know, detensions.
I mean, everything is at a record high and accelerating
so quickly with this. You know, right wing, far right
(20:11):
wing government that's you know, has zero checks and balances,
zero nobody holds them accountable to anything, and so you
know they're able to get away with all of this.
So I mean my sense is that you know, very
soon you will not no longer see kind of the
long standing organizations that have been here for decades that
(20:31):
have very much understood the context very well and have
understood that it's impossible to do the work that we
do without also bearing witness and speaking out on what
we're witnessing. And I think the UN and it's in
that way, you know, even the United Nations, where in
Pelstine has made sure that the States committed to that
(20:52):
mandate because of how important it is to speak out
on what you're seeing around you. I think like that's
purely I think, like, you know, we're the only ones
that are able to witness and record independently what we're
seeing on a daily day basis. And I think the
UN has been incredible in keeping a record of that.
(21:13):
I mean, I think they started recording in two thousand
and eight, so it's like eighteen years now almost of
monitoring violations all across the territory. And if it wasn't
for the work that the UN has done in that,
we wouldn't be able to say that there is a
genocide being carried out in Gaza, or that the risk
(21:34):
of ethnic cleansing has risen exponentially in the West Bank.
The reason why we're able to say this is because
we're able to see the patterns and the data, and
you know, you can contest the data. But you know,
even you were talking about the IPC, the IBC is
not even reflective of what's really happening, and they say
it themselves, but you know, of course, the media, the
(21:54):
way the media kind of focuses on what the results
because you know, you only have time for sound bites.
But if we read the IPC.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Alerts, it's clear that one they're always delayed, so they're
always talking about a time that's already passed and we're way,
we don't beyond that.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
And two it says that it doesn't have access to Gaza.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
But look at the testimonies, you know, just like just
reading the testimonies that some of our organizations have recorded
in the last week, just talking about our own colleagues
and how they're facing starvation themselves. I mean, I think
the testimonies speak to themselves on what is happening in Gaza.
And I don't need the IPC to tell me that
there's a classification four or five. It's never going to
(22:35):
declare famine when it's not there, Like, there's never going
to be a time where the IPC because that's not
even the role of the IPC. The role of the
IPCs not to declare famine. The role the IPC is
just to collect the data and publish the data and
then it's the role of the UN or another international
body to do so. So we're not going to see
if I'm at declaration, because we don't have access and
(22:55):
so you know, we're we're not going to be able
to say that with confident. It's because the IPC is
never going to be able to publish that data.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
But I don't think it matters.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
I think what matters is what we're seeing on the world,
what's being reported, and you know, I mean it's undeniable
really by the pictures themselves. I mean that the videos
and the pictures that are coming out of Gaza just
speak for themselves really, So it's definitely unprecedented times for us,
and it's going to be a very very interesting and frightening,
terrifying here to be frank.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, No, I mean, as I said at the beginning,
And there are of course critiques also of the limitations
of the UN, but this idea that they are wanting
organizations as a condition of registering them to somehow not
bear witness to what is happening and not to write
(23:46):
reports about what's happening, it's a way of hobbling the
ability of actually creating policies like if you want to
talk about famine, or if you want to talk about poverty,
as Oxgram does, how could you solve it without talking
about the root cause? In every way, in every direction,
the Israeli government is attempting to hobble the ability of
(24:08):
international organizations of the past, Indians themselves to be able
to solve the root causes of these problems. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Absolutely, I mean it will have to be fine, creative ways,
just like you know, our Palstinian Civil Society partners that
you know have been also designated, have had to find,
you know, ways to continue doing their work. But you know,
I mean even then, you know, they've lost funding, they've
had to reduce their operations, they've had to reduce their
field officers that go to the field and do this work.
(24:37):
So I mean, I I it's it's so uncertain, but
I think the fact that many of these organizations have
been here for so long understand so deeply the context.
I think organizations will also do whatever they can in
order to ensure that they continue the important work here
and find ways to continue to work.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I don't know how. It's really new time for us,
like we've.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Never been there before, so we don't know what it
looks like how we're going to be able to continue
our work. But we're we're committed to that, so we
will find, you know whatever. I don't want to say
loophole because you know there are none, but we'll find
whatever way to continue to continue kind of being here
and being present and remaining remaining present because I think
(25:23):
it's also part of our commitment to the work that
we've been doing in OPT for decades.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
So yeah, yeah, I think maybe we should end on
a discussion about the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. I mean, I've
already mentioned it in a previous episode, so I encourage
listeners to look into that, but I you know, I
think it's important we discuss what is this foundation and
(25:51):
what is the impact that has had on people in
Gaza and on international organizations that are already doing this work.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah, okay, the GHI for Gaza Unentitarian Foundation SLASHDHF. I
don't like talking about it as such because it's the issue.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Of course, is that's one of the issues. But GHF
is part of many actors, okay, And it's not GHF.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
GHF is a facade for many actors that you know,
the US and Israelis isn't Israeli plan. And I don't
think we need to we cannot, you know, I know
there's US military actors in ghf At, you know, the
border and shooting at people. But this isn't is reelly plant, okay,
and we have to dub.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It as such.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
This plan actually came into We started hearing about.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
This plan a year and a half ago.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
It was maybe in May last year we saw the
General Islands plan on what they wanted to do in
the north when they started the ethnic cleansing campaign in
the north of Gaza, where they besieged the north and
tried to force everybody's south. The idea then was already
they had already were already hearing about something called humanitarian bubbles.
And the bubbles are the sites of what it's what's
(27:01):
what's become the sites, right, But this idea of what
has been floating around for for more than eighteen months.
It's just that nothing kind of transpired until May. I
guess that's when May and the operation started. So it's
really launched. This as an authorization mechanism. This is how
it was originally kind of and that would expand. Basically
(27:23):
is really military control over how AID enters moves within
and is distributed inside Gaza. And of course I mean
that and on its own is a clear attempt to
instrumentalize humanitarian aid. So you know, and I think it's it's,
it's it's it's very important to clarify you know, our
organizations we operate and the extremely rigorous standards and mechanisms
(27:48):
where we're sure the aid is not diverted. And I
think a diversion, you know, it's been talked about like
humas eight divers A diversion exists everywhere. Its exists in
every crisis we work in. Like it's something that is
part of you know, crisis mode, like this is where
when there's a crisis, when there's chaos, that's where there's
space for informal actors to start popping up. So it's
(28:11):
a symptom of every crisis around the world. And so
you know, it's not just a Gaza thing. So we
have totocols on how we can ensure that a diversion
doesn't happen in operations. And of course, as humanitarians, we
would never accept military or profit driven intermediaries overriding what
(28:32):
we call principled aid delivery because it basically means that
you're expanding military control over aid operations by an actual
party to the conflict you know, which, of course, risks
that aid will never reach the most vulnerable you know,
of course at a time when it was most needed.
So from our perspective, there is no scenario where we
(28:55):
would accept any attempts to militarize and privatize humanitarian aid,
whether it's a Gaza or anywhere else, because such actions
actually violate international humanitarian law, but also they undermine the
core principles of humanitarian law, which are a partiality, independence
in humanity. These are principles that guide all of our work.
(29:15):
And of course what is the most dangerous about this
model is not only the massacres that have occurred near
daily at these food distribution sites run by the GJEP
and other actors. It's that it's set such a dangerous
precedent where occupying powers around the world will now be
(29:35):
able to dictate the terms of aid based on their
political agendas and their military goals. That is, what's effectively
now happened, is that if it's happened in Gaza, why
can it not happen in Uganda and d Orsk and Sudan.
(29:57):
And I want to also take it a little back.
Let's talk about the peer. The peer last year is
exactly the same.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
It's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
It's an international company called fog Bow run by former
US military veterans and soldiers and others, other actors that
you know, spent three hundred and twenty million dollars on
a floating pier that brought virtually nothing in and in
fact was used for one rescue mission, rescue operation by
(30:29):
special forces where they entered. I think it was the
way that camp, the refugee camp at the time and
were able to obviously, yeah, rescue hostages, but kill I mean,
you know, a dozens in that operation using the peer,
and hence why we're like we do not we would
distance ourselves and from the beginning distance ourselves from the peer.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
There's no difference with the distribution sites.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
It's the same kind of idea that with logistics we
can we can address a political issue. Issue of Gaza
is not an issue of logistics something you went or
I gios don't know how to do the work policies.
So pelus, the use of society has been responding to
the civilian needs in Gaza from before the war, right,
you know, eighty percent of the Gaza population was dependent
(31:15):
on humanitarian assistance before the war. So, I mean, you know,
it's not that we didn't know how to do it,
it's that we were prevented from doing it.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
We were deliberately prevented from doing it. So it's a
political decision.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
It's not a logistical decision that prevents us from doing
our work in Gaza. And so branch thing Israel control
over who receives the aid, where they received the aid,
and from who has basically turned what is relief what
should be relieved to the civilian population. It's actually a
tool of coersion because what we saw is massacres, people
being shot indiscriminately at I mean, we heard doctor Nick
(31:52):
Maynard yesterday. Yesterday he came back from Gaza a week
ago where we've heard of children being shot in the
testicle at these distribution sites, you know, and not one
he mentioned on the same date he saw half a
dozen boys with the same injury, sniper shots in the
(32:12):
testicles at food distribution sites. So what's happened now is
that what Israel has done is that it blurred the
line between what humanitarian assistance is, what a military objective is,
and of course putting the civilian Palestine civilians and aid
workers as well, because aid workers we know of some
of our colleagues in different organizations that but even themselves
have had to go to these food distribution sites because
(32:34):
there's nothing and we're unable to even support our own
staff at risks. And of course, I mean this entire
system has eroded any protections that are guaranteed to aid
workers and humanitarian responses under international law and under the
Geneva Conventions. So it's not only that it killed people
and that it's harmed Palestinians, but it actually it's also
(32:57):
a complete disregard or international law, complete disregard of international law.
And at the same time, I think what people fail
to remember is that at the same time as this
plan of the distribution sites was set being set up
in the south, at the same time Israel every two
days was evacuating forcibly displaying basically the population towards the
(33:22):
south right, And in less than two months we got
almost one thousand Peltines that were killed, but also an
immense movement of the population towards the south because that's
the only place that they had food, right, So you know,
this is not protection, this is complete coercion. You know,
when you move aid into fence, supervise spaces under militaries,
(33:43):
really military control. Frankly, and what we saw from the
pictures recall some of the darkest chapters of humanitarian failure
of our of our history.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
It's not protection, it's coercion.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
And you know, no countries, nobody should ever support model
that is basically treating civilians as prisoners. And that's not
what a humanitarian aid is about. Humanitarian responses have to
be guided by international law. It has to remain voluntary,
it has to be grounded in the dignity of the people,
and it has to be delivered impartially not shaped by
(34:17):
Israel's occupation or israel siege or Israel's military control. So
not only has this scheme reinforced military control over the
Goss's ship, it has completely dehumanized Palestinians by design, like
Palastinians are only worth a box of food. That's that's
what basically essentially what has happened is that we have
(34:37):
reduced a humanitarian response that addresses hospitals, medical care, water, sanitation, waste,
water shelter.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
It goes right to dignity to a box of flour.
You know, that you can get killed getting.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Or you get killed.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
And not only that, it's a first come, first serf.
You know, it's whoever's the strongest. It's the survival of
the fittest. That's not why I humanitarian A Day is about.
We're supposed to meet the most vulnerable. We need to
reach the pregnant moms, the people with disabilities, the number
of record number of amputees, and Gaza the record number
(35:14):
of disabled people than Gaza right now.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Children Half of Gaza are children.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
They are part of some of the most vulnerable sections
of society.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Age should be going to them. They don't have to.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
They shouldn't have to come to us walk for you know,
I mean some people have said twenty kilometers they've had
to walk to go to these distribution sides. In the
middle of the night, in the sand dunes, they have
to duck because otherwise they might get shot by sniper shot.
And then when the gates of hell open of these
you know, fence zones, whatever you want to call them.
(35:45):
I don't even like calling them distribution sites because they're
not distribution sizes. It implies that there's some sort of
like system to it.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
There's no system there's literally the gates to hell and
then everybody flows into the you know, floods, and we've
heard of people carrying nine to protect themselves because they're
getting looted because it's not enough of course food. And
then there are gangs that are being weaponized by the YOP.
You so, and actually what I what I was saying
(36:11):
to people is that actually what GDTF has created is
created the perfect it's the perfect recipe for armed gangs
and a diversion to occur. Like it's actually like providing
the perfect environment for these informal actors, gangs, criminals to
prosper to you know, this is this is you're creating
that kind of environment. Because let's just be very directed.
(36:34):
This is not about aid, no, of course not no,
It's about coersion. It's about coercion. I mean, as you
mentioned from the very beginning, it was about sequestering Palestinians
and they said it actually and by the way they
said it, it's really war. Cabinet has said that, you know,
and it's like we have to take things that face values.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Sometimes they said it. They've been saying it for the
last year. We just you know, waited until it happened
on the ground to be able to now say it
and confirm it. But this was their plan from the beginning,
and there was nothing implied. It was very explicit, right.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
No, I mean, very very clear, and it really frustrates
me personally because you know, Arab media, Palestinian journalists, Palestinians
on the ground testimonies would would say, we're being arrested
at these sites, they're using facial recognition, they're very much
politicizing AID And it took forever for us to be
(37:29):
even be able to say it, to even be able
to report on it, until Western media sources confirmed yesterday
a number of children were released saw that from being
arrested at these AIG sites, and I couldn't mention that
in things that I wrote because they didn't believe Palestinian testing.
I mean, the GHF contractor themselves themselves have admitted to
(37:52):
what is happening and everything that we've been seeing and saying,
and you know, and warning, I mean, you know, i'd
like to say as well. I mean I want to
I want to underscore actuallyanitarians have been underlining this very
very explicitly to everybody since before they were even set
so you know, I can seek for the clear conscious
that we did what we needed and we could you know,
what we could do, and we did warn that this
(38:14):
would happen and this would be the result, and now
here we are right. No, I mean, it's it's absolutely
important calling. So I want to mention to listeners. I
will put in the show notes a lot of you know,
these citations, the UN reporting that close to a thousand
people have died at these sites, the doctor Nick Maynard
(38:35):
speaking to Channel four News in Britain about what he saw.
I also want to point listeners to a volume that
was released called Suppressing Descent, edited by Zaha Hassan and h. A. Hellier,
because full disclosure, I do have a chapter in that book,
but it's about the shrinking civic space prior to October
seven and and and the dynamics that we have we
(38:58):
have seen, you know, basically playing out at this point.
Thank you so much, Bushel for coming and speaking with
us under such severe circumstances and explaining I think, really
succinctly the dangers of this moment, because what is happening
in Gaza will change the world.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
It will change everywhere, and it already is.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I think, you know, I would tell listeners go look
at AP's article on fog Bow and Uganda and Sudan.
I'm already seeing it. It's not even that it will
change the world. We're already seeing the precedent that Gaza
has set for other humanitarying crises and for these military
actors and private contractors to profit from misery like that's
that's essentially what is happening.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
That's happening.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
So you know, I would also direct you to that
article from AP that came out a couple of weeks
ago about the same companies operating in Gaza and you know,
being complicit in the atrocities that we're seeing unfolded Gaza
now operating in other contexts and prices humanitearing.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Crises really terrible, breaking the world.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, I know. Yeah, Well, thank you so much and
thanks then, thank.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
You and hopefully see you soon and talk to you soon, Michel.
Take care, it could happen. Here is a production of
cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
You can now find sources for it could happen here.
Listened directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
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James Stout
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