March 17, 2022 • 47 mins
Mia talks with Ted, an organizer with Amazonians United about solidarity unionism, direct action in the workplace, and organizing outside the legal frameworks of conventional unionization.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome. It could happen here a podcast about things following
apart and putting the back together again. And today we're
doing one of our I guess increasingly less rare but
still sort of uncommon putting things back together again episodes,
and with me today is Ted men from Amazonians United,
to talk about different kinds of union union workers organizing
(00:26):
UM and the work that you all have been doing.
So Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.
So all right, one of the things that I wanted
to talk about right off the bat is that Amazonians
United is running a very very different kind of organization
than a lot of the union efforts that we've talked
about on the show, and a lot of the sort
(00:46):
of like I guess, classical or sort of business union
models stuff that that you know, we've we've we've we
you know, than than what you see in the press,
and then also that we've been covering. So I wanted
to start off by asking you about solidarity unionism and
how it sort of differs from other kinds of union
(01:07):
organizations and campaigns. Sure, I think it's pretty simple. Actually,
I think solidarity unionism is workers who believe in ourselves
and by that I mean, it's workers recognizing that we
don't need someone to save us UM when because we
(01:28):
are the ones doing the work, we know how to
run our workplaces, we know how to do it best,
and we also deserve the wealth that we produce. So
UM solidarity unionism to me is UH building organization with
(01:51):
each other, where the fabric of our organization is our
relationship and our solidarity as coworkers, engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners, UM, everyone.
That's that's telling us what to do while UH taking
(02:13):
the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM.
And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we
care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM building
our confidence and our strength and our consciousness. UM and
our organization to me a solidary unionism UM. It is
(02:39):
distinctly different from business unionism, which is the dominant form
mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you wanna call it, UM,
that model that has been failing for several decades. UM
(03:00):
actually is predicated on a deep distrust of workers, the
disbelief that workers can organize ourselves, run our own workplaces,
represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. Um. And in
business union, I mean you know you you see the
(03:21):
ads when they're posting, uh for union staff, job, come
lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead.
You're not even a worker in the workplace. Ho are
you gonna lead someone in there? Like you know, you're
you're a lawyer, you're you know, you have a different
professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us from
inside with from within the warehouse and so UM. Yeah,
(03:45):
I think that's that's the main difference to me of
the model. Do you are you a worker? Do you
believe in workers? You trust and have faith that workers
we ourselves can build our own organization, lead ourselves and um?
And when or do you think workers need to be led,
need to be represented, you need to be told what
(04:08):
to do? Um need to pay you to go and
say that? Um? And uh, Yeah, I believe in workers
almost on a solidarity unions. Yeah. And I think we
were talking a bit before the show about this, and
I think there's there's a lot of aspects about this
that are I think very powerful in you know, in
(04:32):
in in in secacy economy that haven't been unionized. And
I haven't our unions ever treated from our people who
were never sort of organized and to begin with, And
I think that's you know something that there's there's there's
the there's this problem that happens like with with a
lot of unions where you know, you you you get
(04:52):
you get this sort of bereacratic structure that builds up,
and the bereacratic structure that builds up like doesn't have
doesn't necessarily have the same interests as the people in
the UNI union. And that's a real problem. And you
get these entrenched like you know, you can get these
entrenched caucuses you control unions, and you get this the
sort of pliferation of of these people. And I think
this was this was part of why a lot of
(05:13):
the sort of the anti union techniques that you saw
in like the sort of anti union persias in the eighties,
I mean you've been seeing them for a while. Like
why they started working in the eighties was that, like
you know, when when when when someone like starts ranting
about union bureaucrats right like they're they're actually like there
actually was a divide there, like there there there was
a sort of like I guess like the like there
(05:33):
there was a sort of like a kind of fundamental
class difference, which I think has a lot I mean,
also has a lot to do with you know, when
when you get into your sort of like more more
revolutionary context that that has to do with why a
lot of unions when you know, Frances infamous for this,
right like Franceais had these giant like comunist trade unions
(05:54):
and every time a revolution started, the trade union just
like sits there and does nothing. And yeah, and you
have to sort of ask yourself like, because so why
is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier to unionism,
it has it has a lot of answers to this
sort of I guess you call it like that. There's
there's a there's a sort of like right wing critique
of unions that has to do with like, well, okay,
so we don't want workers to organize, we don't want
them to reflective power at all. But then there's also
(06:16):
you know, but but the reason that it works in
a lot of cases because it's able to tap into
a sort of like into these structural problems that a
lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding
of how he always organizing has been going and correct
me if I'm wrong that I've been interested in is that, like,
unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even
(06:38):
specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the
sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of press, like,
you're not active, Like your goal isn't to just get
like recognition as a colected bargaining in it. Right. That's
another key part of our key difference between solid or
unionism business unionism. UM. In business unionism, you're you're. What
(07:02):
defines you as a union is whether you are legally
recognized by the state, by n l R b um,
by the appointed government body. Um. That is the point
at which the folks in these organizations like, are we
a union or are we not? Okay, let's let's do
(07:24):
an election. Let's follow all these rules that, by the way,
we're designed to demobilize us century ago. But let's follow
these rules. Let's try to fight in the courts UH
to be recognized as a union. And then once we're
a union, then we can fight for a legal contract
that has benefited a lot of people in different ways.
(07:46):
I'm not you know what I mean, like, but that
approach is different than solidity unism, where It's like, we
know our power is in the workplace, on the shop floor,
where our power based on our unity and numbers as
co workers. We see this when we walk out and
within a month they give us a raise. Along would
(08:07):
it have taken to get a raise if we went
for an l ORB election. Yeah, what organization are we
even building in that way? And so um our. Instead
of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh uh struggle
(08:30):
against bosses in the courts, we are choosing to wage
engage in struggle in the shop floor where we are
the experts, where we have the power, where we have
the organization, where we are doing the work, where that
is our home turf. Um, we have more power. They're like,
it makes more sensitive build power where we have power,
(08:53):
not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower
us and give large employers upper hand. Um. All the
different ways that they can manipulate how the votes happen,
what is considered part of the voting unit, um, the
contract negotiation process, I mean all of these legal hurdles.
(09:16):
I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need
lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world.
That's not our world. It was not built for us
to be in. It was built to control us. And
so um, it just doesn't make logical sense to try
(09:37):
to wage our struggle in that arena. We should be
in waging it in the places that we work and
so um. That Yeah, that's I think another core UM
principal solidity unism like build power where we have it,
um and that's the shop floor. Yeah, and I think,
I mean that's something that I've seen like in when
(09:57):
I was in college. There there's a big dress you
need and organization campaign and it kind of they had
this huge problem which was that Okay, well they were
trying to do they were trying to get a National
Labor Relations Board like vote under Trump. But they couldn't
do it because if you know, because because the National
Labor Relations Board was controlled by just like the even
(10:20):
even by National Labor Relations Board standards like like just
unbelievably anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces. It was like, well,
if we try to get a vote, like there's a
chance they could just you know, like literally destroy the
right like destroy the organizing rights of all grad students
of the country. And yeah, and you get you get
that with the Nissan election or something like that. Yeah, yeah,
(10:41):
and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and it's it's you know,
and yeah, I think this this is a trap that
like a lot of people, even even people who are
really highly organized like get stuck in where you know,
and the like. Eventually, uh, the grand students just like
essentially it's just started doing walkouts because that was you know,
(11:02):
that that was the thing they could do when they
start doing their own strikes until they weren't like legally recognized,
because that was the thing that you could do to
you know, actually fight in a terrain that wasn't just
inherently rigged against you. So okay, so you've you've you've
(11:24):
you've decided to take to take a fight in the workplace,
like on the shop floor where where you're where you're
at your strongest. What does that actually look like in
terms of actions, in terms of organization. Yeah, honestly, I
think it's simpler and more rudimentary. Um then one might
(11:49):
think or that you might read about and you know,
an academic article or something analyzing or I think it
comes down to comes down to building community, comes down
to building culture and the principles of the community and
(12:09):
culture that you build together with their coworkers is one
where we value ourselves and each other. We respect ourselves
and each other, and that means that we fight for
what is fair in the workplace. That means that we
maintain integrity. Any time a boss disrespects one of us,
(12:33):
we need to confront it. We we need to address it. Uh.
If not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM, it
means if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we need
to strategize and figure out how do we how do
we compel the employer to stop overworking and underpaying us,
(12:56):
How do we hit them in a place that they
are forced to respe spect and um as it goes
in the world we are today, it's always the numbers,
It's always the money, it's always the profit. So UM
what that means on the day to day, I mean
m Amazon warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon
(13:18):
has basically uh gigified warehouse work. You know, it's like
the uber for warehouse where you can pick up shifts,
you can you know, extra shifts, you can take uh
furlough days, you know, called them videos. UM. Many warehouses
like you're you're work the ten twelve hour shift and
you're for that entire time you're near one or two
(13:40):
people max. Because they're spaced out and it's loud, and
there's machinery and your packing boxes and and so UM.
On top of that, you know that everyday dehumanizing. It's
also um, you're pushed to work faster and faster. UM.
It's difficult to have you know, deep human and direction
when you're busting your ass moving you know, thirty to
(14:02):
forty five pound packages as quickly as you can. UM.
And so the day to day of building and fighting
in the workplace, building community means uh. For example, every
week we have a potluck during lunch, bring coworkers together,
new coworkers that you know someone could start last week.
(14:24):
That's something that we hear a lot. You know. Part
of the challenge, it's the turnover is so high? How
can you possibly organized turnover so high? UM. That is
a specific weapon that boss is used against us. High
turnover means what it means we frequently have new coworkers,
harder to build relationship and organization. It means that the
job feels more precarious, so people are always uh afraid
(14:48):
that will lose our job. You know, we could get fired.
We could uh they could change uh staffing numbers that
could close warehouses. It create you know, as a tool
higher turnover. They just they turned through workers. Okay, who
who's willing to do the most work for the lowest
pay and sacrifice the most of their body? Okay? If
if you can't handle it, then you quit. If you can,
(15:10):
then you stay in here. Okay, let's find the workers
in society that are most able to you know, produce
the most that so on and so forth and so
basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes it's
just like talking with your coworkers is something that is
that they try to keep you from doing in the workplace,
(15:31):
And by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation, already resisting. UM.
Boss is trying to just control everything, keep everyone divided.
So weekly pot lunches, UM having meetings inside or outside
of the workplace, coming together, what are the issues that
we care about? UM? How do we bring how do
(15:52):
we build more unity around these issues that we know
many people care about. Isn't doing a petition people sign
on together? Are we delivering the petition? And the group. Um.
If the management doesn't respond, it doesn't give us a
reasonable response. How do we escalate? Do we need to
walk out? Do we need to take other action? UM?
Any time we see a manager disres disrespecting a coworker, UM,
(16:16):
how do we post up next to them, pull out
a notepads, start taking notes? Ask questions? UM, we're a witness,
you know. How do we defend each other in all
of these basic ways? How are we addressing um and
being honest with ourselves and each other? Of uh? Just
the depth of disrespect when they're waiting for us outside
of the bathrooms to write us out for time off pass,
when they're telling us to work faster when you know
(16:39):
we're already on a ten hour shift. We're on our
ten of the ten hour shift. They sent a bunch
of people home and are forcing us to finish all
the work for a small number of people. Do we
continue putting up with it or do we immediately walk out?
Or do we talk to their co works about what
we want to do? Just being mindful of being honest
about what how we are being treated, what is fair,
(17:02):
what is not and taking the necessary action to UH
demand the the fairness, the respect that each of that deserves.
I think, like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. Um,
I don't. Yeah, And I think it comes down to
(17:22):
building that community with each other and then building the
culture of not putting up with bullshit, defending each other,
looking out for each other. Um, there's them, there's an US, UM,
make sure you know whatside you're on UM, and you know,
I think that's the that's the foundation of it. Yeah.
I think that the aspect, especially of culture building is
(17:44):
really interesting to me because I think that's something that's
not really talked about much with with with the organizing
efforts in both because you know, a lot of like
a lot of book is discussed with you know, it's
it's especially in academic circles when when when you're when
you're just you know, when when when you have people
writing about union organizing, and when even when sort of
(18:06):
like other union organizers are writing about unions, is that, Yeah,
you don't hear much about the cultural aspects, and you
don't hear much about just resisting the actual like psychological
degradation that you get. And that strikes me I think
also as as yeah, as as you've been saying struct
something that's that's very important, not discussed enough as I
(18:31):
mean both says just something that that is a goal
in itself, like not having this sort of you know,
not not having the just sort of horrible de meeting
and abusive sort of tyranny of the boss is just
like existing as this kind of like normal force. But
(18:52):
then also like yeah, that destructing something that is really
important for anyone who's who's thinking about organizing, is you know,
getting getting people, getting people to organize around just like
howe getting people to organize around just this the sort
of like the psychological decordation, like I think is really
(19:16):
important because otherwise, you know, you get you can get
you can just get these cultures where like I mean,
I remember I had a job where I was in
like we had a union, but like it didn't I
mean I was so I was I was at temp
workers where I wasn't in the union, like they had
a union, and it just sort of didn't do anything,
and no one like you and this this is a
real source and sort of right reing resentment because the
union just didn't do anything, and then you know everyone's
(19:39):
getting treated terribly like by by the bosses and by
sort upper management and no one. But it never even
like it never really like is on a culture level,
never occurred to them to sort of like use the
union for that, because that's not really what the union
was there for. It was just the sort of like
it was just this thing that existed, and like occasionally
when contracts came up, it would pier and I guess,
(20:02):
on on On that note, one of the things I
was also wondering is what sort of so for for
for for people who are who are interested in their
own workplaces and starting doing this kind of organizing and
starting to sort of, i mean just fight back against
their bosses in ways that don't you know, either because
they don't want to or because they literally can't, which
I think is is true of a lot of people
(20:24):
like who who want to organize outside of the business
neion model. How how do you how did you all
start organizing like this? And what what sort of immediate
lessons do you think people should should take away and
should sort of bring in bring into their own organizing
in the workplace. Yeah, um, I think at the base
(20:49):
of the is the um I guess I mentioned something
like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves.
We can. You know, if you're talking if you have
two co workers that you're friends with, and UM, you
say like, hey, let's meet up and talk about what's
(21:09):
going on at work, you're starting to organize, you know. UM.
And I think part of part of the damage, part
of the harm that business unionism has done. And also
(21:30):
just I don't know, hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM.
I think they're all part of uh sort of connected
school of thought where it's like organizing and you know,
building a union is something that like you need to
(21:51):
be like professionals to or you know, they're experts at
it U experts and then if you're not an expert,
then you need to consultant expert figure out how to
do it UM. And I think that's bullshit. I think
it's if you're a worker, then uh, you can be
a union organizer. If you're a worker and you talk
(22:11):
with you know, another worker about what's going on in
your workplace, like you're already starting to organize. UM. Like
I said earlier, if you're calling a meeting, if you're
you know, and and workers do this all the time
confronting management about this respect you know, I think it's
very much more frequently on an individual basis. But it's
a matter of like connecting your issue with a couple
(22:34):
other coworkers and then figure out, Okay, well, um, what
what's our next step? But we need more numbers? How
do we you know, how do we build more numbers? Uh?
If each of us can invite one more person, that
six people, if you know, if the six of us
can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know,
signature is a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's
it's step by step and saying if we want to
(22:57):
build organization, we can do it from the bottom up.
We can start it um and we can figure this out.
I mean, every even within the same company, even within
the same company in the same city there you know,
I work at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other
(23:19):
delivery stations in the city of Chicago have a completely
different culture, you know, the neighborhood that it's in the
workers that are the bosses, you know, And so even
in the same company, the same type of workplace in
the same city, it's gonna be a different story for
how that workplace is gonna you know, get united, come together, UM,
(23:46):
figure things out, build organization, and it's just anyone there
that is thinking about that that that kind of just
begins the process of putting together. They six, all right,
we need to start building up some numbers. We need
to start having, you know, addressing some issues that people
(24:06):
care about. And there's always i mean, there's always the
you know, overworked and underpaid, and that's gonna exist everywhere.
You can always go after those issues, but frequently there
are small ones like our first issue was a water
petition uh or or or or at was access to
water UM, and this is how we started as an
organization UM. Basically, they were taking away bottled water. They
(24:27):
said we were leaving around too much garbage. They're saying
bottled water is only there for the summer, and now
that's not the summer. That whatever. They're trying to save
a few dollars a day on bottled water to make
us you know, work without it UM, And we said,
that's fucked up. We're doing warehouse work like this, hard
manual labor, and it's hot in here. We need a
(24:48):
bottle water. It's you know, not just that broken, unfiltered
fountain across the warehouse that you can't even get to
while you're working. Um. And so, uh, just a few
of us that we're talking at break it was like, okay,
well there's six of us here. Well we're kind of
you know, this is the this is the break room
at work. They're like managers walking around their cameras in here,
(25:10):
like let's meet outside, uh and figure this out. UM.
So you know, we we met at a at a
Crispy Cream down on like ninety third um, and uh
we just basically said like, well, how are we gonna
get this water? We've been asking management? Uh you know
they've given us the same reasons. We need to do
something bigger that that they can't ignore. Um, how about
(25:32):
a petition? And so we just drafted it. The six
of us we drafted it. We went around. We got
hundred fifty signatures I think from our coworkers are just
like basic commands. We need bottled water stocked every day.
They need to be you know, filters need to be clean.
We need to get a be able to take a
break to get this water. Um. And we delivered uh,
(25:53):
the hundred fifty signatures to management. UM. I think it
was within thirty or forty minutes, they drove to a
grocery store or bought you know, went to the nearest
pizza bought every case a bottle. Why they have brought
it and passed it out to everyone. We're like, oh, okay,
like that was you know, people like that's just hey,
we gotta do a petition for this thing. We gotta
do you know what this thing? Probably it was that
(26:15):
I don't want to say easy, because it's definitely not
easy to like. But the steps, the step by step
of like how do you begin, how do you get
something started? How do you start building some immunity? Um,
These are steps that we have taken. These are you know,
what we think is can be applicable UM with everyone's
(26:39):
own kind of personal tweaks based on you know, your
own workplace. UM, to start getting something going from more coworkers,
to start realizing, oh yeah, like we should be in
more control of what's happening around here because we're the
ones that are doing all the work. We're the ones
that are suffering the most from it in our bodies,
getting ground down from doing it. And so um, yeah,
(27:01):
I think that I think I look back to a
previous question do but like how we started, how you
engage in the struggle and just like what that looks
like for building building something up from nothing to something
like that's what that's what we you know what I mean,
that's what we did. Yeah, from from what I've seen,
(27:27):
you all have been extremely effective like at at getting
management to recognize it, but essentially getting them to like
a seed to your demands because like this this this
kind of organizing like solidity unied what what I'm trying
to say, it's all there to unist works like it's
not like like and you know and yeah, it's it's
(27:50):
a thing. I think one of one of the things
you're talking about is like, yeah, it's like when like
when you win even on something fairly small, right, and
you can show people that this works and that like
you know, if if, if, if you actually come together
on something, you can force management to do stuff like
I think that also become becomes an important sort of
(28:11):
like I don't know if catalysts is the right word,
but it becomes it becomes becomes an engine that like
feeds itself definitely, I mean, especially for a big company
like Amazon, like I think the most common perspective, at
(28:33):
least at the start, is like such a big company,
like what could we possibly do? They have a thousand warehouses,
like what you know, they could choose to close one
and open another one. You know, they do this, or
they could suddenly you know, and with two weeks notice
like change the schedule from an evening time to overnight time,
which is what they did to us. Basically, um, what
(28:53):
can we possibly do? And so you know, but I
think it's like the moment, it's like there's uh on
a cliff or what do you call, like the watershed
a point, like the moment you kind of take that
first collective action and then get what you want. Um.
It's like, oh wait, it's not as like within this
(29:14):
space like we can actually make our lives a lot
better pretty quickly. Yeah, we just come together and do
it ourselves and recognize the power that we have. UM.
And I think it's like hmm. That's one of the
(29:35):
reasons why it works so well is because it is
different from the mainstream approach, which UM bosses and these
companies understand very well and can easily maneuver around, such as,
oh if we do if if one of our managers
does something wrong. What will happen next is well, receive
(29:59):
one of our lawyer as we'll receive a grievance from
one of their representative lawyers, and you know, this business union,
we'll have this many months respond and then we can
do this and then you know, uh, we'll do this
paperwork and have this legal back and forth and then
maybe we'll address this issue six to twelve months down
the line. UM, no disruption, you know, nothing to worry about. UM,
Let the bosses run amuck and we'll get a six
(30:21):
to twelve month at start to you know, and maybe
get a slap on the wrist and a fixed wherever
you need to or pay small fine. UM as opposed
to that's business units, like as opposed to Southern unism,
where it's like they just disrespected us in a way
that like we're not trying to put up with, Like
we are hurting. We can't even finish the shift without
hurting ourselves more. We're just gonna group up the walk
(30:43):
out right now. UM, they're gonna figure out, they're gonna
have to figure out how to get the rest of
these packages out without us, UM, and when we come
back tomorrow, Uh, we'll see, we'll see if they want
to keep treating us the same way. UM. And so
it's like to me, you know, we we've had basic
(31:03):
basic management confrontations where either immediately uh you know, they
were understaffing and we grouped up rolled into the office
just like with seven of us, not even like the
whole shift. Um, seven out of fifty people rolling office,
and you have too few people on the lines. You
you need an add extra person. We've been asking you
have it. Um, We've folded our arms within five minutes
(31:24):
to send an extra person over there. They're working the
rest of the shift. UM. In the in the business
union approach, like I don't even know, Like how do
you follow you know, understaffing grievance? Like what are the details?
How does that happen? Does a union representative have to
be contacted and then negotiate in some way? Um? But
that like, let's just address this right now and fix it. UM.
(31:46):
I don't want to wait for some outside activity. Let's
just improve our working conditions right now, like confronting and
addressing it. UM. I think it just you know that's
something that Um, the bosses are left, it's less predictable
for them. It's less in their control, it's less in
their wheelhouse. Um, and I think that's a prey reason
(32:10):
why it works better. Yeah, And I think one of
one of the things the thing this reminds me of.
It reminds me of the kind of stuff that unions
used to do when they were strong. Like it reminds
me of like, yeah, you're you're like c I O,
like sit down, strike, right, It's like, well, okay, if
if the manager or something we didn't we don't like
so one blows a whizzle, everyone sits down, and like
it's like it's that that kind of not just sort
of like way to go to the legal channels, but
(32:31):
just just like im immediately taking action is like it's
it's something that it's like it's it's something that worked,
and it's you know like that that's that's the kind
of stuff that like build the built the original like
labor movement. And it's really interesting to me that, like
because because I think there's a lot of like I
think a lot of people look back at that era
sort of like nostalgically and go like, well, Okay, if
(32:52):
unions were stronger, we could do this, but like that's
not really true, you you can't actually just like like
you can do the same things that like, you know,
you're like nineteen thirties c I O was doing like
and and and if you know, and you don't you
don't need the kind of institutional backing that that those
people had. If if like if if you're organized enough
in in your in your specific location, I think that's
(33:14):
a really interesting I don't know, I'm purious if you
agree with it, seems like it's kind of interesting lesson
about like what happens to the labor movement, where like
the more the more you get into this sort of
like okay, well, the the union is now two lawyers
sitting down with each other, right the what what you're
doing basically is and then like this is this is
(33:36):
this is explicitly what the National Labor Relations Act was, right, Like,
it was an attempt to get labor, labor and capital
sit down at the table and stop fighting so that
they could like you know, basically seleft production could go on,
and like some sometimes sometimes that that you know, sometimes
I favor the union. Right, sometimes you'd have the president
be like like the actual like US president would be like, okay,
you come you like steal company. You have to like
(33:57):
give workers what they're asking for because steel production shut down, right,
But like, you know, the problem with that is that
it's based on like it's based on at all costs
trying to sort of preserve like it's based on cost
like trying to preserve the labor piece. And you know,
I mean there's reasons for that too, Like yeah, like
I'm not gonna like like obviously there's there's any time
(34:19):
you take a direct action, there's a risk, and yeah,
like I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not gonna
be like like it's it's hard to be really mad
at people who don't want to go on strike because
they don't like because you know, how how am I
going to feed my family? Etcetera, etcetera. But like, you know,
bringing like having that kind of militancy in the workplace,
(34:43):
just you know, without without any kind of formal recognition,
I think is an extremely powerful tactic. And is I
mean literally how the original labor movement like got built.
It's difficult, though, and it can be yeah, yeah, you know,
and it's like I think you you posed kind of
(35:04):
the question or or or kind of questioning the idea
like where did how did the labor movement get to
where it's at if the origins were more conscious UM,
in the ways that you've been describing UM. I think that. UM.
(35:27):
I mean it's it's definitely you know, the risk is
always there. You're always confronting the power. I mean in
the workplace. When it comes down to it like that,
obviously the power dynamics shift, and it's more complex than
you know, bosses have more power than workers unless workers
(35:47):
organized and workers have more power than bosses. That is true.
And also for example, on the day to day, you know,
the boss can fire anyone and then you're you know,
however you end up dealing with it. Uh, you know,
you could be out anywhere between two or twenty paychecks
(36:08):
until something is resolved legally or even through direct Actually,
there's obviously very directly oppressive our dynamic there. UM. And
I think that UM. To speak truth to power, to
directly confronted UM, of course, it's frightening. I mean I
(36:33):
would be lying if you know, like I'm I'm you know,
talking on this on this podcast about doing this and
yeah we're doing this, and like you know, I'm not
gonna pretend that like when we were even when we
were in a forty person mass, you know, confronting management,
addressing that everyone together, it's still like, you know, there's
there's there's still this power dynamic here and we're punching
(36:55):
up like it's a punch, but like we're punging up
to someone that's like a big, heavier um adversary, and
so it's like they could swing back to like you
gotta gotta be ready to and so UM. I think
that what I'm describing on a kind of like face
(37:16):
to face and the personal that moment in the workplace,
I think on a broader scale also exists where it's
like waging an extended you know, organizing struggle to be
fighting this fight millions of times in many different ways,
and then continually trying to bring people together. You know,
(37:36):
people move on because everything that's happening in life. They
got evicted from their place, so they had to move
to a different place far away. Okay, suddenly they had
to leave a job and they were someone that was
contributing a lot to the organizing. Something happened. Someone has
a family member that uh, you know that they need
to spend a little bit more time with Um, everything
that's happening, everything that's making you know, reduced seeing our
(38:00):
time as working people to take care of ourselves and
each other, like all of this, we're fighting against all
of this, and um, they're definitely ups and downs. They're
definitely times it was like thing like where you know,
and then it seems I get times, Uh, all of
the struggles and life like it's like you take like
(38:23):
two steps forward and then two steps backwards. Get it.
And so you know, there's definitely a difficult reality permitting everything.
You know, all of the organizing wins, the advance that
we're talking about. We need to be fully honest about
that and also recognize that there's still like nothing more.
(38:47):
There's like nothing more beautiful powerful, There's there's no there's
nothing that feels better than that moment when you when
the power dynamic was like this and you pull something
off and it's like yeah, I was like, oh, like
you you just did what we wanted you know and
more and then now like you're being real careful with us,
(39:09):
like we we change things here, like our lives are
better concretely, um, and we made it happen, and uh,
you know, I think those are like celebrating the winds
and like taking joy, not always thinking so far, Okay,
we've got more to go. Yeah, they're always there's always
more of that. Um. We can and have to be building.
(39:31):
And let's make sure that we're taking the time to recognize,
um and celebrate each of the steps that we are
um advancing, so that you know, we we don't get
lost in you know, assuming in the cycle of like
seeking permanent, infinite growth and organizing and being constantly stressed
(39:54):
out about it, rather than like taking those breathers, taking
those moments. Okay, like let's take this and strive, let's
do this and stay. That's not burnout. Um. Yeah, I
think that's all part of figuring out how to how
to how to make it happen. Yeah, And I think
that's that's important. I think that that that's an important
(40:14):
thing to understand with any kind of organizing, which is
that like yeah, if if if you like if if
if if, there's never sort of a moment in which
you're reflecting on or or just celebrating like that the
goals that you've actually accomplished, Right, you're just gonna sort
of be endlessly bashing your head against the wall. And
you know that this is this is like yeah, I
(40:35):
mean this is this is sort of a burnout machine.
This is a a way that you know, it's something
that also just sort of feeds despair, which is that yeah,
like you know, like yeah, okay, your your victory is
a small victory, but it is a real one. And
that's that's something that even in the face of sort
of like the Cyclopean horror of like just the world
(40:56):
that we're living in, like no, your your small victories
due lead up to bigger ones and yeah, and you know,
and getting people to lose sight of that is a
like it' it's it made your way. The system is
held together by just sort of like manufacturing hopelessness, even
when there there there are reasons for hope, and there
are reasons to sort of look at what you've done
(41:18):
and go, hey, we we won this thing. Definitely, Yeah,
I think that's a I guess unexpectedly cheery for this
show not to end on Do you have anything else? Yeah,
I mean I think we touched on a lot um.
(41:39):
I guess I have a usual pits or some version
of it um. But I think, uh, maybe something to
bring together different elements that we touched on and bringing
some of the sure really hopefulness and also put out
(42:03):
some encouragement too. I think now is a time where
there's a whole lot of uncertainty and I'm uh, you know,
definitely and a global week to week or year to
year scale, but also on an individual level. I think
a lot of individuals right now, UM likely those that
are listening UM that that end up listening to this
(42:24):
or UM those that are like seeing what's happening around
the world, is like, what is my role in all
of this? What am I trying to do? Different people
are joining different organizations and and and trying to figure
out how they should be living their lives, what the
what principles they should be living out, how they should
be applying themselves to for example, UM, combat and dismantle
(42:47):
UM I don't know, uh capitalism and and and uh
you know, prison industrial complex and reverse climate destruction and
and find fascism everything all of existential threats that we face.
It's like, what, you know, what is my role? And
I think, UM, if if you at all have the
(43:16):
capacity and curiosity, UM two engage in some of this
deep work yourself for building community relationships, culture among UM.
You know, just with workers, build building your own organization,
building your own acts of resistance, building your own forms
(43:38):
of of of you know, own forms of reclaiming your
time and minds and bodies, and build something beautiful that
can you know, be part of a broader movement that
that you know, lifts up working people, that kind of
gets back what we are building and what we what
we deserve. UM. You know, think about think about the
(44:00):
logistics industry, think about warehouse work, UM, think about joining
in UM and UH, you know it's uh it's hard work.
It's hard manual labor, it's hard mental and emotional work. UM.
But I think this is the future of what the winning,
(44:25):
fighting uh successful movement UM will need. UM. And I
think many people engaging and building more genuine, more worker focus,
worker centered, worker run uh stolidarity unions of our own
democratic horizontal bottom up UM. I think building this way
(44:50):
and connecting with each other, I think this is the
way forward. I think this is the examples that we need.
We need more people engaging in this work. We need
more uh more of that attention, energy and focus, Like
how do we build the real stuff? UM, that's gonna
be the powerful organizational influence to transform society and and
(45:14):
avert these forms of extinction and continued extraction, exploitation, oppression
of all of us. UM, join us, Join, join the struggle,
get get some of these jobs. Talk to your co workers,
build something that. It's really that simple. UM. And uh yeah,
(45:34):
that's my that's my every day pitch. UM. So, if
if people want to find Amazonians United specifically, where where
where can they find y'all? UM? So in Chicago. So
Amazonians United Chicago Land, UM is our name. We have
(45:55):
a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. UM. Those are
probably where we're most active. UM, and where you can
follow and get into contact with us, Tweet out us,
message us on Facebook. UM. If you're really so inclined, UM,
you can email us at a you Chicago land at
(46:17):
gmail dot com. UM. But otherwise, yeah, just look up,
you know, follow our social media. You'll see what we
post occasionally about what's going on. UM. And uh, you know,
feel free to reach out, get into contact, ask any
questions you might have, UM, and you know, let's connect,
let's build community. Yeah. And that's that's a Chicagoland at
(46:38):
a Chicago Land on Twitter by the way. Yeah. UM, yeah,
sweet uh ted, thank you, thank you so thank you
so much for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah,
that's really great. Um yeah, if you want to find
us at you can find us at happen Here pod
on Twitter, Instagram, and cool Zone Media in the same places.
(47:03):
Um yeah, go go, go organize with your coworkers, go
do cool things, go be do well better place. Yes, yes, yes, sure,
um yeah, thank you, thank you. It could Happen Here
as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
(47:24):
from cool zone Media, visit our website cool zone media
dot com, or check us out on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks
for listening.
Welcome. It could happen here a podcast about things following
apart and putting the back together again. And today we're
doing one of our I guess increasingly less rare but
still sort of uncommon putting things back together again episodes,
and with me today is Ted men from Amazonians United,
to talk about different kinds of union union workers organizing
(00:26):
UM and the work that you all have been doing.
So Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.
So all right, one of the things that I wanted
to talk about right off the bat is that Amazonians
United is running a very very different kind of organization
than a lot of the union efforts that we've talked
about on the show, and a lot of the sort
(00:46):
of like I guess, classical or sort of business union
models stuff that that you know, we've we've we've we
you know, than than what you see in the press,
and then also that we've been covering. So I wanted
to start off by asking you about solidarity unionism and
how it sort of differs from other kinds of union
(01:07):
organizations and campaigns. Sure, I think it's pretty simple. Actually,
I think solidarity unionism is workers who believe in ourselves
and by that I mean, it's workers recognizing that we
don't need someone to save us UM when because we
(01:28):
are the ones doing the work, we know how to
run our workplaces, we know how to do it best,
and we also deserve the wealth that we produce. So
UM solidarity unionism to me is UH building organization with
(01:51):
each other, where the fabric of our organization is our
relationship and our solidarity as coworkers, engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners, UM, everyone.
That's that's telling us what to do while UH taking
(02:13):
the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM.
And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we
care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM building
our confidence and our strength and our consciousness. UM and
our organization to me a solidary unionism UM. It is
(02:39):
distinctly different from business unionism, which is the dominant form
mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you wanna call it, UM,
that model that has been failing for several decades. UM
(03:00):
actually is predicated on a deep distrust of workers, the
disbelief that workers can organize ourselves, run our own workplaces,
represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. Um. And in
business union, I mean you know you you see the
(03:21):
ads when they're posting, uh for union staff, job, come
lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead.
You're not even a worker in the workplace. Ho are
you gonna lead someone in there? Like you know, you're
you're a lawyer, you're you know, you have a different
professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us from
inside with from within the warehouse and so UM. Yeah,
(03:45):
I think that's that's the main difference to me of
the model. Do you are you a worker? Do you
believe in workers? You trust and have faith that workers
we ourselves can build our own organization, lead ourselves and um?
And when or do you think workers need to be led,
need to be represented, you need to be told what
(04:08):
to do? Um need to pay you to go and
say that? Um? And uh, Yeah, I believe in workers
almost on a solidarity unions. Yeah. And I think we
were talking a bit before the show about this, and
I think there's there's a lot of aspects about this
that are I think very powerful in you know, in
(04:32):
in in in secacy economy that haven't been unionized. And
I haven't our unions ever treated from our people who
were never sort of organized and to begin with, And
I think that's you know something that there's there's there's
the there's this problem that happens like with with a
lot of unions where you know, you you you get
(04:52):
you get this sort of bereacratic structure that builds up,
and the bereacratic structure that builds up like doesn't have
doesn't necessarily have the same interests as the people in
the UNI union. And that's a real problem. And you
get these entrenched like you know, you can get these
entrenched caucuses you control unions, and you get this the
sort of pliferation of of these people. And I think
this was this was part of why a lot of
(05:13):
the sort of the anti union techniques that you saw
in like the sort of anti union persias in the eighties,
I mean you've been seeing them for a while. Like
why they started working in the eighties was that, like
you know, when when when when someone like starts ranting
about union bureaucrats right like they're they're actually like there
actually was a divide there, like there there there was
a sort of like I guess like the like there
(05:33):
there was a sort of like a kind of fundamental
class difference, which I think has a lot I mean,
also has a lot to do with you know, when
when you get into your sort of like more more
revolutionary context that that has to do with why a
lot of unions when you know, Frances infamous for this,
right like Franceais had these giant like comunist trade unions
(05:54):
and every time a revolution started, the trade union just
like sits there and does nothing. And yeah, and you
have to sort of ask yourself like, because so why
is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier to unionism,
it has it has a lot of answers to this
sort of I guess you call it like that. There's
there's a there's a sort of like right wing critique
of unions that has to do with like, well, okay,
so we don't want workers to organize, we don't want
them to reflective power at all. But then there's also
(06:16):
you know, but but the reason that it works in
a lot of cases because it's able to tap into
a sort of like into these structural problems that a
lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding
of how he always organizing has been going and correct
me if I'm wrong that I've been interested in is that, like,
unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even
(06:38):
specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the
sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of press, like,
you're not active, Like your goal isn't to just get
like recognition as a colected bargaining in it. Right. That's
another key part of our key difference between solid or
unionism business unionism. UM. In business unionism, you're you're. What
(07:02):
defines you as a union is whether you are legally
recognized by the state, by n l R b um,
by the appointed government body. Um. That is the point
at which the folks in these organizations like, are we
a union or are we not? Okay, let's let's do
(07:24):
an election. Let's follow all these rules that, by the way,
we're designed to demobilize us century ago. But let's follow
these rules. Let's try to fight in the courts UH
to be recognized as a union. And then once we're
a union, then we can fight for a legal contract
that has benefited a lot of people in different ways.
(07:46):
I'm not you know what I mean, like, but that
approach is different than solidity unism, where It's like, we
know our power is in the workplace, on the shop floor,
where our power based on our unity and numbers as
co workers. We see this when we walk out and
within a month they give us a raise. Along would
(08:07):
it have taken to get a raise if we went
for an l ORB election. Yeah, what organization are we
even building in that way? And so um our. Instead
of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh uh struggle
(08:30):
against bosses in the courts, we are choosing to wage
engage in struggle in the shop floor where we are
the experts, where we have the power, where we have
the organization, where we are doing the work, where that
is our home turf. Um, we have more power. They're like,
it makes more sensitive build power where we have power,
(08:53):
not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower
us and give large employers upper hand. Um. All the
different ways that they can manipulate how the votes happen,
what is considered part of the voting unit, um, the
contract negotiation process, I mean all of these legal hurdles.
(09:16):
I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need
lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world.
That's not our world. It was not built for us
to be in. It was built to control us. And
so um, it just doesn't make logical sense to try
(09:37):
to wage our struggle in that arena. We should be
in waging it in the places that we work and
so um. That Yeah, that's I think another core UM
principal solidity unism like build power where we have it,
um and that's the shop floor. Yeah, and I think,
I mean that's something that I've seen like in when
(09:57):
I was in college. There there's a big dress you
need and organization campaign and it kind of they had
this huge problem which was that Okay, well they were
trying to do they were trying to get a National
Labor Relations Board like vote under Trump. But they couldn't
do it because if you know, because because the National
Labor Relations Board was controlled by just like the even
(10:20):
even by National Labor Relations Board standards like like just
unbelievably anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces. It was like, well,
if we try to get a vote, like there's a
chance they could just you know, like literally destroy the
right like destroy the organizing rights of all grad students
of the country. And yeah, and you get you get
that with the Nissan election or something like that. Yeah, yeah,
(10:41):
and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and it's it's you know,
and yeah, I think this this is a trap that
like a lot of people, even even people who are
really highly organized like get stuck in where you know,
and the like. Eventually, uh, the grand students just like
essentially it's just started doing walkouts because that was you know,
(11:02):
that that was the thing they could do when they
start doing their own strikes until they weren't like legally recognized,
because that was the thing that you could do to
you know, actually fight in a terrain that wasn't just
inherently rigged against you. So okay, so you've you've you've
(11:24):
you've decided to take to take a fight in the workplace,
like on the shop floor where where you're where you're
at your strongest. What does that actually look like in
terms of actions, in terms of organization. Yeah, honestly, I
think it's simpler and more rudimentary. Um then one might
(11:49):
think or that you might read about and you know,
an academic article or something analyzing or I think it
comes down to comes down to building community, comes down
to building culture and the principles of the community and
(12:09):
culture that you build together with their coworkers is one
where we value ourselves and each other. We respect ourselves
and each other, and that means that we fight for
what is fair in the workplace. That means that we
maintain integrity. Any time a boss disrespects one of us,
(12:33):
we need to confront it. We we need to address it. Uh.
If not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM, it
means if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we need
to strategize and figure out how do we how do
we compel the employer to stop overworking and underpaying us,
(12:56):
How do we hit them in a place that they
are forced to respe spect and um as it goes
in the world we are today, it's always the numbers,
It's always the money, it's always the profit. So UM
what that means on the day to day, I mean
m Amazon warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon
(13:18):
has basically uh gigified warehouse work. You know, it's like
the uber for warehouse where you can pick up shifts,
you can you know, extra shifts, you can take uh
furlough days, you know, called them videos. UM. Many warehouses
like you're you're work the ten twelve hour shift and
you're for that entire time you're near one or two
(13:40):
people max. Because they're spaced out and it's loud, and
there's machinery and your packing boxes and and so UM.
On top of that, you know that everyday dehumanizing. It's
also um, you're pushed to work faster and faster. UM.
It's difficult to have you know, deep human and direction
when you're busting your ass moving you know, thirty to
(14:02):
forty five pound packages as quickly as you can. UM.
And so the day to day of building and fighting
in the workplace, building community means uh. For example, every
week we have a potluck during lunch, bring coworkers together,
new coworkers that you know someone could start last week.
(14:24):
That's something that we hear a lot. You know. Part
of the challenge, it's the turnover is so high? How
can you possibly organized turnover so high? UM. That is
a specific weapon that boss is used against us. High
turnover means what it means we frequently have new coworkers,
harder to build relationship and organization. It means that the
job feels more precarious, so people are always uh afraid
(14:48):
that will lose our job. You know, we could get fired.
We could uh they could change uh staffing numbers that
could close warehouses. It create you know, as a tool
higher turnover. They just they turned through workers. Okay, who
who's willing to do the most work for the lowest
pay and sacrifice the most of their body? Okay? If
if you can't handle it, then you quit. If you can,
(15:10):
then you stay in here. Okay, let's find the workers
in society that are most able to you know, produce
the most that so on and so forth and so
basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes it's
just like talking with your coworkers is something that is
that they try to keep you from doing in the workplace,
(15:31):
And by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation, already resisting. UM.
Boss is trying to just control everything, keep everyone divided.
So weekly pot lunches, UM having meetings inside or outside
of the workplace, coming together, what are the issues that
we care about? UM? How do we bring how do
(15:52):
we build more unity around these issues that we know
many people care about. Isn't doing a petition people sign
on together? Are we delivering the petition? And the group. Um.
If the management doesn't respond, it doesn't give us a
reasonable response. How do we escalate? Do we need to
walk out? Do we need to take other action? UM?
Any time we see a manager disres disrespecting a coworker, UM,
(16:16):
how do we post up next to them, pull out
a notepads, start taking notes? Ask questions? UM, we're a witness,
you know. How do we defend each other in all
of these basic ways? How are we addressing um and
being honest with ourselves and each other? Of uh? Just
the depth of disrespect when they're waiting for us outside
of the bathrooms to write us out for time off pass,
when they're telling us to work faster when you know
(16:39):
we're already on a ten hour shift. We're on our
ten of the ten hour shift. They sent a bunch
of people home and are forcing us to finish all
the work for a small number of people. Do we
continue putting up with it or do we immediately walk out?
Or do we talk to their co works about what
we want to do? Just being mindful of being honest
about what how we are being treated, what is fair,
(17:02):
what is not and taking the necessary action to UH
demand the the fairness, the respect that each of that deserves.
I think, like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. Um,
I don't. Yeah, And I think it comes down to
(17:22):
building that community with each other and then building the
culture of not putting up with bullshit, defending each other,
looking out for each other. Um, there's them, there's an US, UM,
make sure you know whatside you're on UM, and you know,
I think that's the that's the foundation of it. Yeah.
I think that the aspect, especially of culture building is
(17:44):
really interesting to me because I think that's something that's
not really talked about much with with with the organizing
efforts in both because you know, a lot of like
a lot of book is discussed with you know, it's
it's especially in academic circles when when when you're when
you're just you know, when when when you have people
writing about union organizing, and when even when sort of
(18:06):
like other union organizers are writing about unions, is that, Yeah,
you don't hear much about the cultural aspects, and you
don't hear much about just resisting the actual like psychological
degradation that you get. And that strikes me I think
also as as yeah, as as you've been saying struct
something that's that's very important, not discussed enough as I
(18:31):
mean both says just something that that is a goal
in itself, like not having this sort of you know,
not not having the just sort of horrible de meeting
and abusive sort of tyranny of the boss is just
like existing as this kind of like normal force. But
(18:52):
then also like yeah, that destructing something that is really
important for anyone who's who's thinking about organizing, is you know,
getting getting people, getting people to organize around just like
howe getting people to organize around just this the sort
of like the psychological decordation, like I think is really
(19:16):
important because otherwise, you know, you get you can get
you can just get these cultures where like I mean,
I remember I had a job where I was in
like we had a union, but like it didn't I
mean I was so I was I was at temp
workers where I wasn't in the union, like they had
a union, and it just sort of didn't do anything,
and no one like you and this this is a
real source and sort of right reing resentment because the
union just didn't do anything, and then you know everyone's
(19:39):
getting treated terribly like by by the bosses and by
sort upper management and no one. But it never even
like it never really like is on a culture level,
never occurred to them to sort of like use the
union for that, because that's not really what the union
was there for. It was just the sort of like
it was just this thing that existed, and like occasionally
when contracts came up, it would pier and I guess,
(20:02):
on on On that note, one of the things I
was also wondering is what sort of so for for
for for people who are who are interested in their
own workplaces and starting doing this kind of organizing and
starting to sort of, i mean just fight back against
their bosses in ways that don't you know, either because
they don't want to or because they literally can't, which
I think is is true of a lot of people
(20:24):
like who who want to organize outside of the business
neion model. How how do you how did you all
start organizing like this? And what what sort of immediate
lessons do you think people should should take away and
should sort of bring in bring into their own organizing
in the workplace. Yeah, um, I think at the base
(20:49):
of the is the um I guess I mentioned something
like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves.
We can. You know, if you're talking if you have
two co workers that you're friends with, and UM, you
say like, hey, let's meet up and talk about what's
(21:09):
going on at work, you're starting to organize, you know. UM.
And I think part of part of the damage, part
of the harm that business unionism has done. And also
(21:30):
just I don't know, hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM.
I think they're all part of uh sort of connected
school of thought where it's like organizing and you know,
building a union is something that like you need to
(21:51):
be like professionals to or you know, they're experts at
it U experts and then if you're not an expert,
then you need to consultant expert figure out how to
do it UM. And I think that's bullshit. I think
it's if you're a worker, then uh, you can be
a union organizer. If you're a worker and you talk
(22:11):
with you know, another worker about what's going on in
your workplace, like you're already starting to organize. UM. Like
I said earlier, if you're calling a meeting, if you're
you know, and and workers do this all the time
confronting management about this respect you know, I think it's
very much more frequently on an individual basis. But it's
a matter of like connecting your issue with a couple
(22:34):
other coworkers and then figure out, Okay, well, um, what
what's our next step? But we need more numbers? How
do we you know, how do we build more numbers? Uh?
If each of us can invite one more person, that
six people, if you know, if the six of us
can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know,
signature is a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's
it's step by step and saying if we want to
(22:57):
build organization, we can do it from the bottom up.
We can start it um and we can figure this out.
I mean, every even within the same company, even within
the same company in the same city there you know,
I work at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other
(23:19):
delivery stations in the city of Chicago have a completely
different culture, you know, the neighborhood that it's in the
workers that are the bosses, you know, And so even
in the same company, the same type of workplace in
the same city, it's gonna be a different story for
how that workplace is gonna you know, get united, come together, UM,
(23:46):
figure things out, build organization, and it's just anyone there
that is thinking about that that that kind of just
begins the process of putting together. They six, all right,
we need to start building up some numbers. We need
to start having, you know, addressing some issues that people
(24:06):
care about. And there's always i mean, there's always the
you know, overworked and underpaid, and that's gonna exist everywhere.
You can always go after those issues, but frequently there
are small ones like our first issue was a water
petition uh or or or or at was access to
water UM, and this is how we started as an
organization UM. Basically, they were taking away bottled water. They
(24:27):
said we were leaving around too much garbage. They're saying
bottled water is only there for the summer, and now
that's not the summer. That whatever. They're trying to save
a few dollars a day on bottled water to make
us you know, work without it UM, And we said,
that's fucked up. We're doing warehouse work like this, hard
manual labor, and it's hot in here. We need a
(24:48):
bottle water. It's you know, not just that broken, unfiltered
fountain across the warehouse that you can't even get to
while you're working. Um. And so, uh, just a few
of us that we're talking at break it was like, okay,
well there's six of us here. Well we're kind of
you know, this is the this is the break room
at work. They're like managers walking around their cameras in here,
(25:10):
like let's meet outside, uh and figure this out. UM.
So you know, we we met at a at a
Crispy Cream down on like ninety third um, and uh
we just basically said like, well, how are we gonna
get this water? We've been asking management? Uh you know
they've given us the same reasons. We need to do
something bigger that that they can't ignore. Um, how about
(25:32):
a petition? And so we just drafted it. The six
of us we drafted it. We went around. We got
hundred fifty signatures I think from our coworkers are just
like basic commands. We need bottled water stocked every day.
They need to be you know, filters need to be clean.
We need to get a be able to take a
break to get this water. Um. And we delivered uh,
(25:53):
the hundred fifty signatures to management. UM. I think it
was within thirty or forty minutes, they drove to a
grocery store or bought you know, went to the nearest
pizza bought every case a bottle. Why they have brought
it and passed it out to everyone. We're like, oh, okay,
like that was you know, people like that's just hey,
we gotta do a petition for this thing. We gotta
do you know what this thing? Probably it was that
(26:15):
I don't want to say easy, because it's definitely not
easy to like. But the steps, the step by step
of like how do you begin, how do you get
something started? How do you start building some immunity? Um,
These are steps that we have taken. These are you know,
what we think is can be applicable UM with everyone's
(26:39):
own kind of personal tweaks based on you know, your
own workplace. UM, to start getting something going from more coworkers,
to start realizing, oh yeah, like we should be in
more control of what's happening around here because we're the
ones that are doing all the work. We're the ones
that are suffering the most from it in our bodies,
getting ground down from doing it. And so um, yeah,
(27:01):
I think that I think I look back to a
previous question do but like how we started, how you
engage in the struggle and just like what that looks
like for building building something up from nothing to something
like that's what that's what we you know what I mean,
that's what we did. Yeah, from from what I've seen,
(27:27):
you all have been extremely effective like at at getting
management to recognize it, but essentially getting them to like
a seed to your demands because like this this this
kind of organizing like solidity unied what what I'm trying
to say, it's all there to unist works like it's
not like like and you know and yeah, it's it's
(27:50):
a thing. I think one of one of the things
you're talking about is like, yeah, it's like when like
when you win even on something fairly small, right, and
you can show people that this works and that like
you know, if if, if, if you actually come together
on something, you can force management to do stuff like
I think that also become becomes an important sort of
(28:11):
like I don't know if catalysts is the right word,
but it becomes it becomes becomes an engine that like
feeds itself definitely, I mean, especially for a big company
like Amazon, like I think the most common perspective, at
(28:33):
least at the start, is like such a big company,
like what could we possibly do? They have a thousand warehouses,
like what you know, they could choose to close one
and open another one. You know, they do this, or
they could suddenly you know, and with two weeks notice
like change the schedule from an evening time to overnight time,
which is what they did to us. Basically, um, what
(28:53):
can we possibly do? And so you know, but I
think it's like the moment, it's like there's uh on
a cliff or what do you call, like the watershed
a point, like the moment you kind of take that
first collective action and then get what you want. Um.
It's like, oh wait, it's not as like within this
(29:14):
space like we can actually make our lives a lot
better pretty quickly. Yeah, we just come together and do
it ourselves and recognize the power that we have. UM.
And I think it's like hmm. That's one of the
(29:35):
reasons why it works so well is because it is
different from the mainstream approach, which UM bosses and these
companies understand very well and can easily maneuver around, such as,
oh if we do if if one of our managers
does something wrong. What will happen next is well, receive
(29:59):
one of our lawyer as we'll receive a grievance from
one of their representative lawyers, and you know, this business union,
we'll have this many months respond and then we can
do this and then you know, uh, we'll do this
paperwork and have this legal back and forth and then
maybe we'll address this issue six to twelve months down
the line. UM, no disruption, you know, nothing to worry about. UM,
Let the bosses run amuck and we'll get a six
(30:21):
to twelve month at start to you know, and maybe
get a slap on the wrist and a fixed wherever
you need to or pay small fine. UM as opposed
to that's business units, like as opposed to Southern unism,
where it's like they just disrespected us in a way
that like we're not trying to put up with, Like
we are hurting. We can't even finish the shift without
hurting ourselves more. We're just gonna group up the walk
(30:43):
out right now. UM, they're gonna figure out, they're gonna
have to figure out how to get the rest of
these packages out without us, UM, and when we come
back tomorrow, Uh, we'll see, we'll see if they want
to keep treating us the same way. UM. And so
it's like to me, you know, we we've had basic
(31:03):
basic management confrontations where either immediately uh you know, they
were understaffing and we grouped up rolled into the office
just like with seven of us, not even like the
whole shift. Um, seven out of fifty people rolling office,
and you have too few people on the lines. You
you need an add extra person. We've been asking you
have it. Um, We've folded our arms within five minutes
(31:24):
to send an extra person over there. They're working the
rest of the shift. UM. In the in the business
union approach, like I don't even know, Like how do
you follow you know, understaffing grievance? Like what are the details?
How does that happen? Does a union representative have to
be contacted and then negotiate in some way? Um? But
that like, let's just address this right now and fix it. UM.
(31:46):
I don't want to wait for some outside activity. Let's
just improve our working conditions right now, like confronting and
addressing it. UM. I think it just you know that's
something that Um, the bosses are left, it's less predictable
for them. It's less in their control, it's less in
their wheelhouse. Um, and I think that's a prey reason
(32:10):
why it works better. Yeah, And I think one of
one of the things the thing this reminds me of.
It reminds me of the kind of stuff that unions
used to do when they were strong. Like it reminds
me of like, yeah, you're you're like c I O,
like sit down, strike, right, It's like, well, okay, if
if the manager or something we didn't we don't like
so one blows a whizzle, everyone sits down, and like
it's like it's that that kind of not just sort
of like way to go to the legal channels, but
(32:31):
just just like im immediately taking action is like it's
it's something that it's like it's it's something that worked,
and it's you know like that that's that's the kind
of stuff that like build the built the original like
labor movement. And it's really interesting to me that, like
because because I think there's a lot of like I
think a lot of people look back at that era
sort of like nostalgically and go like, well, Okay, if
(32:52):
unions were stronger, we could do this, but like that's
not really true, you you can't actually just like like
you can do the same things that like, you know,
you're like nineteen thirties c I O was doing like
and and and if you know, and you don't you
don't need the kind of institutional backing that that those
people had. If if like if if you're organized enough
in in your in your specific location, I think that's
(33:14):
a really interesting I don't know, I'm purious if you
agree with it, seems like it's kind of interesting lesson
about like what happens to the labor movement, where like
the more the more you get into this sort of
like okay, well, the the union is now two lawyers
sitting down with each other, right the what what you're
doing basically is and then like this is this is
(33:36):
this is explicitly what the National Labor Relations Act was, right, Like,
it was an attempt to get labor, labor and capital
sit down at the table and stop fighting so that
they could like you know, basically seleft production could go on,
and like some sometimes sometimes that that you know, sometimes
I favor the union. Right, sometimes you'd have the president
be like like the actual like US president would be like, okay,
you come you like steal company. You have to like
(33:57):
give workers what they're asking for because steel production shut down, right,
But like, you know, the problem with that is that
it's based on like it's based on at all costs
trying to sort of preserve like it's based on cost
like trying to preserve the labor piece. And you know,
I mean there's reasons for that too, Like yeah, like
I'm not gonna like like obviously there's there's any time
(34:19):
you take a direct action, there's a risk, and yeah,
like I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not gonna
be like like it's it's hard to be really mad
at people who don't want to go on strike because
they don't like because you know, how how am I
going to feed my family? Etcetera, etcetera. But like, you know,
bringing like having that kind of militancy in the workplace,
(34:43):
just you know, without without any kind of formal recognition,
I think is an extremely powerful tactic. And is I
mean literally how the original labor movement like got built.
It's difficult, though, and it can be yeah, yeah, you know,
and it's like I think you you posed kind of
(35:04):
the question or or or kind of questioning the idea
like where did how did the labor movement get to
where it's at if the origins were more conscious UM,
in the ways that you've been describing UM. I think that. UM.
(35:27):
I mean it's it's definitely you know, the risk is
always there. You're always confronting the power. I mean in
the workplace. When it comes down to it like that,
obviously the power dynamics shift, and it's more complex than
you know, bosses have more power than workers unless workers
(35:47):
organized and workers have more power than bosses. That is true.
And also for example, on the day to day, you know,
the boss can fire anyone and then you're you know,
however you end up dealing with it. Uh, you know,
you could be out anywhere between two or twenty paychecks
(36:08):
until something is resolved legally or even through direct Actually,
there's obviously very directly oppressive our dynamic there. UM. And
I think that UM. To speak truth to power, to
directly confronted UM, of course, it's frightening. I mean I
(36:33):
would be lying if you know, like I'm I'm you know,
talking on this on this podcast about doing this and
yeah we're doing this, and like you know, I'm not
gonna pretend that like when we were even when we
were in a forty person mass, you know, confronting management,
addressing that everyone together, it's still like, you know, there's
there's there's still this power dynamic here and we're punching
(36:55):
up like it's a punch, but like we're punging up
to someone that's like a big, heavier um adversary, and
so it's like they could swing back to like you
gotta gotta be ready to and so UM. I think
that what I'm describing on a kind of like face
(37:16):
to face and the personal that moment in the workplace,
I think on a broader scale also exists where it's
like waging an extended you know, organizing struggle to be
fighting this fight millions of times in many different ways,
and then continually trying to bring people together. You know,
(37:36):
people move on because everything that's happening in life. They
got evicted from their place, so they had to move
to a different place far away. Okay, suddenly they had
to leave a job and they were someone that was
contributing a lot to the organizing. Something happened. Someone has
a family member that uh, you know that they need
to spend a little bit more time with Um, everything
that's happening, everything that's making you know, reduced seeing our
(38:00):
time as working people to take care of ourselves and
each other, like all of this, we're fighting against all
of this, and um, they're definitely ups and downs. They're
definitely times it was like thing like where you know,
and then it seems I get times, Uh, all of
the struggles and life like it's like you take like
(38:23):
two steps forward and then two steps backwards. Get it.
And so you know, there's definitely a difficult reality permitting everything.
You know, all of the organizing wins, the advance that
we're talking about. We need to be fully honest about
that and also recognize that there's still like nothing more.
(38:47):
There's like nothing more beautiful powerful, There's there's no there's
nothing that feels better than that moment when you when
the power dynamic was like this and you pull something
off and it's like yeah, I was like, oh, like
you you just did what we wanted you know and
more and then now like you're being real careful with us,
(39:09):
like we we change things here, like our lives are
better concretely, um, and we made it happen, and uh,
you know, I think those are like celebrating the winds
and like taking joy, not always thinking so far, Okay,
we've got more to go. Yeah, they're always there's always
more of that. Um. We can and have to be building.
(39:31):
And let's make sure that we're taking the time to recognize,
um and celebrate each of the steps that we are
um advancing, so that you know, we we don't get
lost in you know, assuming in the cycle of like
seeking permanent, infinite growth and organizing and being constantly stressed
(39:54):
out about it, rather than like taking those breathers, taking
those moments. Okay, like let's take this and strive, let's
do this and stay. That's not burnout. Um. Yeah, I
think that's all part of figuring out how to how
to how to make it happen. Yeah, And I think
that's that's important. I think that that that's an important
(40:14):
thing to understand with any kind of organizing, which is
that like yeah, if if if you like if if
if if, there's never sort of a moment in which
you're reflecting on or or just celebrating like that the
goals that you've actually accomplished, Right, you're just gonna sort
of be endlessly bashing your head against the wall. And
you know that this is this is like yeah, I
(40:35):
mean this is this is sort of a burnout machine.
This is a a way that you know, it's something
that also just sort of feeds despair, which is that yeah,
like you know, like yeah, okay, your your victory is
a small victory, but it is a real one. And
that's that's something that even in the face of sort
of like the Cyclopean horror of like just the world
(40:56):
that we're living in, like no, your your small victories
due lead up to bigger ones and yeah, and you know,
and getting people to lose sight of that is a
like it' it's it made your way. The system is
held together by just sort of like manufacturing hopelessness, even
when there there there are reasons for hope, and there
are reasons to sort of look at what you've done
(41:18):
and go, hey, we we won this thing. Definitely, Yeah,
I think that's a I guess unexpectedly cheery for this
show not to end on Do you have anything else? Yeah,
I mean I think we touched on a lot um.
(41:39):
I guess I have a usual pits or some version
of it um. But I think, uh, maybe something to
bring together different elements that we touched on and bringing
some of the sure really hopefulness and also put out
(42:03):
some encouragement too. I think now is a time where
there's a whole lot of uncertainty and I'm uh, you know,
definitely and a global week to week or year to
year scale, but also on an individual level. I think
a lot of individuals right now, UM likely those that
are listening UM that that end up listening to this
(42:24):
or UM those that are like seeing what's happening around
the world, is like, what is my role in all
of this? What am I trying to do? Different people
are joining different organizations and and and trying to figure
out how they should be living their lives, what the
what principles they should be living out, how they should
be applying themselves to for example, UM, combat and dismantle
(42:47):
UM I don't know, uh capitalism and and and uh
you know, prison industrial complex and reverse climate destruction and
and find fascism everything all of existential threats that we face.
It's like, what, you know, what is my role? And
I think, UM, if if you at all have the
(43:16):
capacity and curiosity, UM two engage in some of this
deep work yourself for building community relationships, culture among UM.
You know, just with workers, build building your own organization,
building your own acts of resistance, building your own forms
(43:38):
of of of you know, own forms of reclaiming your
time and minds and bodies, and build something beautiful that
can you know, be part of a broader movement that
that you know, lifts up working people, that kind of
gets back what we are building and what we what
we deserve. UM. You know, think about think about the
(44:00):
logistics industry, think about warehouse work, UM, think about joining
in UM and UH, you know it's uh it's hard work.
It's hard manual labor, it's hard mental and emotional work. UM.
But I think this is the future of what the winning,
(44:25):
fighting uh successful movement UM will need. UM. And I
think many people engaging and building more genuine, more worker focus,
worker centered, worker run uh stolidarity unions of our own
democratic horizontal bottom up UM. I think building this way
(44:50):
and connecting with each other, I think this is the
way forward. I think this is the examples that we need.
We need more people engaging in this work. We need
more uh more of that attention, energy and focus, Like
how do we build the real stuff? UM, that's gonna
be the powerful organizational influence to transform society and and
(45:14):
avert these forms of extinction and continued extraction, exploitation, oppression
of all of us. UM, join us, Join, join the struggle,
get get some of these jobs. Talk to your co workers,
build something that. It's really that simple. UM. And uh yeah,
(45:34):
that's my that's my every day pitch. UM. So, if
if people want to find Amazonians United specifically, where where
where can they find y'all? UM? So in Chicago. So
Amazonians United Chicago Land, UM is our name. We have
(45:55):
a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. UM. Those are
probably where we're most active. UM, and where you can
follow and get into contact with us, Tweet out us,
message us on Facebook. UM. If you're really so inclined, UM,
you can email us at a you Chicago land at
(46:17):
gmail dot com. UM. But otherwise, yeah, just look up,
you know, follow our social media. You'll see what we
post occasionally about what's going on. UM. And uh, you know,
feel free to reach out, get into contact, ask any
questions you might have, UM, and you know, let's connect,
let's build community. Yeah. And that's that's a Chicagoland at
(46:38):
a Chicago Land on Twitter by the way. Yeah. UM, yeah,
sweet uh ted, thank you, thank you so thank you
so much for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah,
that's really great. Um yeah, if you want to find
us at you can find us at happen Here pod
on Twitter, Instagram, and cool Zone Media in the same places.
(47:03):
Um yeah, go go, go organize with your coworkers, go
do cool things, go be do well better place. Yes, yes, yes, sure,
um yeah, thank you, thank you. It could Happen Here
as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
(47:24):
from cool zone Media, visit our website cool zone media
dot com, or check us out on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks
for listening.
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Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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