August 3, 2023 • 34 mins
Shereen is joined by author Ami Weintraub to discuss how Zionism evolved into a racist ideology, what it means to be an Anti-Zionist, and the importance of Anti-Zionism within the Jewish community.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, welcome to It could happen here. Yes, this is
what I sound like today. This is sharene just go
with it. If you listen to the Sheep episode, I
sounded much worse. So this is I sound great today,
I amo, but yeah, thank you for listening today. I'm
excited to talk about what I want to talk about
for the next two days because it's something that I've
(00:26):
always wanted to kind of just like open up as
more of a conversation. And I'm so grateful to have
an author and amazing person. They've just written a book
called to the Ghosts Who Are Still Living and it's
out now you can go get it. I'm the Wine Traub.
Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited
(00:47):
to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to
you too.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
There's a particular reason why I asked you to come
on the show. I specifically wanted to talk to a
Jewish anti Zionist. So I want to approach the conversation
as if people are really unfamiliar with Zionism, because I
think most people are. Can you maybe just start by
telling me, like, what is Zionism?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah? Definitely, Yeah, And I said to sharing before as well,
like I am not particularly like an expert on Zion,
I'm sure Israel Palestine. So also just want to recommend
that listeners also go out and find the experts, find
the materials that you're interested in, if this conversation sparks
your interest. Yeah, and take my my thoughts as just
(01:36):
one thought in the mix of all the thoughts. So, Yeah,
when I was thinking about like defining Zionism, I was
thinking about sort of like the origins of Zionism and
like how did we even get to that place?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Zionism for me reflects and I think is like this
political desire to have a Jewish state, and to have
that Jewish state like on the land of Israel.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Is how.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Is how Zionism has materialized in its formation. And prior
to like the actual political movement of Zionism, there has
been like a connection of the Jewish.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
People to that specific land.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It just hadn't materialized into like an actual movement to
establish a state on that land.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So there's like.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
There's been like a yearning and like a memory and
like a collective sense of.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Connection to like Jerusalem, to that piece of land.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
But it was only in like the eighteen hundreds, when
there was nation state building occurring in general in Europe,
specifically in Eastern Europe, that the movement for Zionism started
to develop in the form that we have today. And
a lot of that was because one reason, like Jews
(03:11):
were saying, oh wow, like German people are creating a
state or French people are creating a state, like we
are a people, we should have a state. And at
the same time, Jews were also being excluded from citizenship
in a lot of the actual like newly formed countries
that they were living in. So there was like this
(03:32):
dispossession also from place where they were and matched with
a general like rise of antisemitism as well. So I
think all of those things kind of crystallized into creating
a actual political movement around that kind of nascent like
more like religious spiritual yearning. Yeah, and then that formed
(03:56):
into like many different types of Zionism, like more militaristic
Zionism or socialist si religious Scionism, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And that's all kind of yeah, make its way to
become Israel. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
How would you differentiate all of those like the cultural
versus religious versus political, Like, how would you personally differentiate them.
I know you're not an expert, but just like speaking
of experience, Yeah, I have to think on that. It's complicated,
I would say, because it feels like to me from
just reading about the history of Zionism, it did kind
(04:34):
of start in a religious like origin, but it became
more political.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Am I reading that right?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Or yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
I think like, yeah, that's what can be pretty confusing.
I think about understanding like Zionism in general is just
like where does this even come from? Like how do
these like especially Zionism like originating more from like Ashkenazi
like European Jews.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
How did this even come to be and seen as
something that like.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
The longing and the connection to the land being part
of Jewish culture and religion, but that only turning into
a desire for a nation state like at that certain moment.
So the like different categories of like religious Zionism versus
political versus militaristic versus socialists were kind of like the
(05:27):
ways that Zionism was. There was like different movements of
Zionism in Europe and Eastern Europe at the time of
its origins. So it's kind of like referring to more
of its historical relationship and then that still influences the
politics today in contemporary like I'll just say a state
(05:48):
of Israel and also many like Israel Palestine, but speaking
about Zionism, that feels more relevant. So you still have
like socialist scientists who are more on the left than
you have like more like right wing religious scientists, you
probably have more historical origins and like more militaristic Sietism
and religious scientists who maybe are like we are here
(06:11):
for the religious reasons of being Jews on this land
versus like a socialist scientist. Like their framework was more
like we want to create this more socialist utopia sort
of vision versus more political militaristic Sietists. Their original vision
was like want to dominate this land and have right
(06:32):
political power.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, it feels like in recent times it's kind of
leaned more in that direction, only because of the I
don't know the state of the world. But when you
when you look up Zionism, it's defined I'm just gonna
read what I found and please entrupt me if you're like,
actually no. When you look at zionism was defined as
an organized nationalist movement generally considered to have been founded
(06:58):
by theod Or hers in eighteen ninety seven. However, the
history of Zionism began earlier and is intertwined with the
Jewish history and Judaism as a whole. The organizations of
I'm going to probably mispronounce this, but hoveve Zion the
lovers of Zion.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
How you svitz? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
This organization was held as like the forerunner of the
modern Zionist ideals and they are responsible for twenty Jewish
towns in Palestine between eighteen seventy and eighteen ninety seven.
This is from just online history, and at the core
of the Zionist ideology was this traditional aspiration for a
(07:45):
Jewish national home through the re establishment of Jewish sovereignty
in Palestine, and this was to be facilitated by the
Jewish diaspora. Herzel apparently sought an independent Jewish state, usually
defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority population,
and he wrote a eighteen ninety six pamphlet to describe
(08:09):
exactly what he wanted, and though he did not live
to witness it, Israel was established and so what he
wanted did come to fruition, even though in my opinion
it was not done in a just way, but.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's history for you.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
But yeah, I think the actual core of it is
really understandable and true, you know, like of course every
marginalized community wants a safe haven and a place where
they can all go to. I think my biggest what
I really dislike about where it is now, where zion
(08:51):
him is now, is just how much it erases everyone
else that's already there. It's almost as if Palestine was
like an empty field, you know. And I think a
lot of Zionists today kind of erase that history in
a race that like, they massacred hundreds of people and
they displaced over seven hundred and fifty thousand people. It's
(09:13):
called the neckbut it's called the catastrophe. That's what Palestinians
refer to it as. And I feel like Zionists tend
to not. I mean, from what I understand, it's as
if that isn't like real history. And from what I've read,
or like from what I've heard from people that have
grown up in Israel, the history that they learn is
(09:35):
also a little bit selective in what they learn. But yeah,
that's I've just been I've been reading a lot about
Zionism for a long time. Yeah, but it's nice to
have someone actually like with experience in it because I
can only learn so much from the Internet and from
like secondhand stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I feel like that like like when we look at
like the early Zionists and it's like, oh, yeah, like
these desires to like have sovereignty and have autonomy and
agency for your people who are being marginalized in your
country like or in these lands that they live reasonable,
Like that totally makes sense and that and then it
(10:21):
has to, like you said, be also seeing through the
lens of like the actual history that occurred, which is
materially trying to like build a nation state as like
part of your people's liberation is going to involve lots
of oppression and violence.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And that's kind of where I ended up, like.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, like understanding the history of Zionism, like being able
to have empathy for that original message, and then just
really being like that's what led me into like anarchism ultimately,
was saying that this desire for a niche state to
be like a liberatory project is kind of always going to.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Be flawed in a way.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So actually, like and I kind of said, like you know,
Jewish like agencies, sovereignty and like liberation, like we actually
deserve better than that, you know, being deserved to not
actually be like held within the confines of like what
is possible in a nation state, as I think like
(11:30):
all people deserve.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, totally. So that's kind of how I've come to
this point now.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
No, and I really want to talk to you more
about how you've landed where you are with your beliefs.
But yeah, I think what also gets forgotten is that
pre nineteen forty eight, there were Jewish people in Palestine,
you know, and Christian people everyone got along. I'm from Syria,
but even in Syria everyone, like in all in most
(11:55):
Middle Eastern countries, there was a mix of all these
religions and they all got along. And I think that's
what really angers me when it comes to like basically
like the news saying it's like this ancient religious conflict,
because that's just simply not true. And I think that's
a huge defense that a lot of like militant Zionists have,
where it's like this eternal cultural religious war and it's
(12:21):
simply just false. I think that's something that always bothers me.
I just want to give a little bit more history
just to bring us to like current day. Just I
think it's this stuff is a little bit interesting. So
in nineteen seventy five the UN General Assembly they passed
Resolution three three seven nine, which designated Zionism as a
(12:42):
form of racism and racial discrimination. However, this resolution was
repealed in nineteen ninety one by replacing Resolution three three
seventy nine with Resolution four to six slash eight six,
and this new resolution it was adopted on December sixteenth
and nineteen ninety one. It revoked the determination in the
previous resolution three three seventy nine determining Zionism as racist,
(13:07):
and Israel had made the certification of this resolution a
condition of its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference, which
was a conference that was held at the end of
nineteen ninety one, and it was also raised under pressure
of the administration of President Bush. Papa, I just find
(13:28):
that funny, No, hw Bush, I'm sorry, this is not
funny stuff. I just this is how I cope. But
basically the revocation was simply this one sentence, the General
Assembly decides to revoke the determination contained in its Resolution
three three seventy nine of tenth of December nineteen seventy five,
and this motion was supported by one hundred and eleven nations,
(13:52):
including the ninety nations who had sponsored it in the
first place, and it was opposed by twenty five nations
and abstained by thirteen nations. And I just thought that
was incredibly fascinating. It also just like illustrates the power
that Israel has always kind of like held, like as
far as like a political state in like world affairs.
(14:15):
And if you've listened to my previous episodes, then you
know that at the current state in time, and like
for decades leading up to this, the government in Israel
is extremely far right and Zionist to the point where
it's extremely racist, and they've built an apartheid state based
around their Zionism. Basically, Dianis values serve as the ideological
(14:38):
foundation of Israel. I think that's kind of a big
part of why Israel was created in the first place,
was this hope for a place where everyone was safe.
Obviously that kind of became twisted and they went about
it in a terrible way. But I do understand what
you mean also by having empathy for the original feel
(15:00):
of it, because I feel the same. I think every
marginalized community wants what the original idea of Zionism had.
I think Zionis today is defined so differently, and I
think that's really unfortunate because it didn't have to become
a racist ideology, but it did. I've been rambling too much,
and we're going to take our first break. When we
(15:20):
come back, I want to talk to you about you,
so Brb and we're back, Ammie, take it away what
he had a response for the thing I said about
(15:43):
how Zion's values they serve as the ideological foundation of Israel.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, And I think one of the things that I
try to like make a point of kind of as
like a Jewish anarchist specifically, Like what I was saying
prior is that that's again like kind of just the inevitable, well,
in my mind, like the inevitable outcome of like a
state is that there is going to be some amount
of like division of population, like oppression of a certain
(16:14):
class of people or certain group of people, a consolidation
of power in the hands of a few. So again,
for me, like that's where this like the original idea
of like let's have a place where Jews can have
like safety and sovereignty and cultural like flourishing. Like attaching
(16:36):
that to a state was like kind of always bound
to fail, but not inherent like not exactly because like
notationially because that desire is like a wrong desire.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, and then when we pile in kind.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Of like like other people's interests in terms of like
the West having like an interest in having like Israel
being like a friendly like I consider like a proxy
state the West like in the Middle East where they
can you know, like we've seen like send their police
officers to be trained in these ways. But also the
(17:09):
West is benefiting from that exchange.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
They have a little hole in the Middle East like
they always wanted to exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
So their interest is to like maintain Israel like as
something that they can have influence in and have this
kind of control over and like to make it creepier
like the Christian like Evangelical Zionism, like Christian Zionism is
also like a huge influence in the US.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
There was just a.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Really interesting documentary I can't remember the name now that
that was released like a year or two ago about
this and Christian Zionists actually make up like a larger
lobbying body than like Jewish Zionists in the US just
backward because they there's just so many more evangelicals and
interest in the state of Israel is that Jews will
(18:03):
return there and then the rapture will happen.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Wait can you Yeah, I actually want to talk to
you about this because I one hundred percent think you
know more about this than I do, because I do.
I have heard that there are a lot of evangelical
Christians that are huge supporters of Zionism. Yeah, one, can
you speak to like if you know how that even
like where that uh, I don't know, not solid I
(18:30):
guess like solidarity with Zionism came about, and also what
they believe, like the whole rapture thing.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Please, I would love to know more.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yet again, like people like watch whatever this documentary is,
you just google like Christian Zionism, because I've mostly learned
from that and from my own like internet wormholes.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I've just looked it up and I think it's Till
Kingdom Come twenty twenty film, right, Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Cool?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
And so what I understand is there is this like
somewhere in the Christian world, but like it has roots
at least in the evangelical world. Right now, this idea
in the Rapture, which I don't know that much about,
but apparently the rapture will involve Jews returning to the
land of Israel and Jesus returning and killing all of
(19:19):
the Jews. Oh my god. Yeah, they support Zionism. That
is why they support Zionism. So they walked. Yeah, so
they want Jews to go back to the land the
state of Israel in order for them to ultimately like
be killed and go to hellp all in.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
One place and be conveniently killed.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Yeah, and so that and that is one of the
major lobbying arms. Like when we're talking about like the
US like sending money to to Israel, and like I
just saw recently, like like most of the Republicans are
like supporting.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
This, yeah, the aid going to Israel.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And it's like why are they doing that when generally
they don't really support Jews, you know, like Republicans are
not like BFFs with Jews, Like they.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Don't really I mean inherently that way of seeing Zionism
is one hundred percent racist. Like it's like people are
or not not even just that anti semitic, you know
how anti semitic. That's really the defense all of the
time when you have like a Palestinian politician talk about
Israel or anything not even Zionism as mens in Israel,
and then they get labeled as tiseemitic, but.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
That is one hundred percent anti Semitics. It's actually antisemitic.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Well, and it's like it doesn't get noticed because like
I feel like so much that like white Christians do
in this country just like gets very overlooked as like
something that actually has something that's actually worth like noticing
and something that's actually worth like critiquing. So I and
(21:00):
trying to understand, like how did we get to this place?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Like how did we get to.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
This point where like, yeah, Israel is being supportive and
doing what it is doing right now to Palestinians. It
has moved, in my opinion, so far away from like
an actual like vision of like Jewish liberation. And then
you look at like who's actually really supporting this project
right now, and it's people who actually just want us
(21:24):
to die. It becomes very convoluted, and it again motivates
my anti Zionism in a lot of ways too.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, can you tell me as little and as many
details as you want, But how did you come to
identify as an anti Zionist. How did you become How
did you embrace that definition for yourself?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I guess there's a lot of aspects to that answer.
One thing is like I do really care about like
Jewish people being safe and Jewish people having our culture,
like Jewish will be able to express our culture, be
able to express who we are. And I think, yeah,
like being two or three generations from like the Holocaust
(22:07):
and just like feeling like the intensity of that loss
of life and land and place has just like given
me that feeling of like this is really important. And
then also like living out of time right now in
the US, where like anti Semitism is violent and I've
experienced that violence and it is like a threat to
(22:28):
like my sense of safety and my ability to express
my culture. I've just been like very obsessed with, like
what does actually achieving those goals look like? Yeah, And
when I look at the state of Israel and I
see all eighteen year olds are conscripted into the army,
which is like literally like my great grandfather left Russia
because he didn't want to be conscripted into the Russian army,
(22:49):
and a lot of Jews Ashurazi Jews in the US
like have that story, like that's not liberation when I
see that, like a lot of Jews in Israel have
the choice of either being like very secular or being
extremely religious, when even like a lot of more diverse
like Jewish cultures have been assimilated into like this one
(23:13):
monolithic culture. Languages have been lost, like practices have been lost,
Like that's not like our culture being able to flourish.
And also the violence done to Palestinians, like in the
name of the state and the name of this liberation,
like nothing, nothing is worth that violence. Ever, so all
(23:33):
of those things have kind of coalesced into my Jewish
anarchism of also analyzing that through the state apparatus itself
and being like, oh, yeah, states will do this. We
need to think more creatively, We need to think in
a way that builds actual solidarity between Jewish community and
Palestinian community and other marginalized people.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
And all of that has.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Kind of just coalesced into Jewish anti Zionism, like just
making sense on all of those levels.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, no, I thank you for saying all of that.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I think nothing is worth all that violence. And also
I think unfortunately, like when you have any kind of desire,
no matter how pure it is, because I think the
basis of Zion is and has a pure desire of
safety and sovereignty. But when you have a desire and
you add politics to it, or you add I don't know,
(24:31):
any kind of like country war anything. When you add
like modern day limitations and structures, that's when it becomes
something else. It devolves into something that it really shouldn't be. Like,
I think what disserves me the most is how many
young people are like rallying in the streets, like a
(24:52):
lot of like far right groups in Israel will be
like death to all Arabs or like they'll say the
most heinous things as well as do the most heinous things.
But I think it's unfortunate because I think even they
kind of lost what zion is was supposed to be about.
It's not supposed to be about being only there, just
you and killing everybody else, or or seeing someone else
(25:15):
as second as second citizens or anything. But no, I yeah,
thank you for saying all that. The army thing is
a really good thing to bring up as well, just
because Palestine has no army, so it's a little bit
silly to demand everyone and even join the army for
this fake, imaginary bad guy. Not that there is not
(25:36):
there's definitely terrorist like activity on both sides, I would say,
but the vast majority is like this imaginary big bad
wolf that does not exist and is like powered by
US and Western media totally.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
And that's where I start to think, like I don't
know if this is like conspiracy or if this is real,
but I start to think, like who is this actually serving,
you know, like who is it serving to, like literally, yeah,
put young people into a war every in every generation
that comes through this country, and like, is it mostly
(26:15):
serving like US and other like Western interests to be
able to ye have that land be their proxy state.
And I don't have enough research to like back that
claim up in a way that I would like to.
That's that's like my next like research wormhole is to
try and yeah, just understand like that dynamic, because I
(26:35):
think something else that I have a lot of questions
about you, and like the formation of the state of
Israel is like yeah, understanding that like England did, or
like I don't ready Great Britain in England. I think
England they were the ones who like practitioned that land
and like they were the ones who ultimately signed it over.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, the British are was possible forty of the world
They no, no, fake you no.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
And sometimes like forgetting that part of the story kind
of almost like contributes to this kind of like anti
Semitic rhetoric of like, oh the Jews are this like
all powerful people who were just able to conquer this
land on their own.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
It's like a conspiracy theory fuel.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yeah, when it's like no, like actually, like the Jews
at that time did not have like global power in that.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Way like England.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Britain was like here you go, here's this land in
the same way that they did like so much of
the other colonized places in that world in the world.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, I mean the British are responsible for.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Every bad thing, and like.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
For me, like that bigger lens feels harder to talk
about sometimes because I also like am also holding that
like Jewish American support for the state of Israel, like Fuels,
also autrocity is happening against Palestidian's Jewish support for the
IDEF in Israel, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Like obviously are responsible.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And like I worry that if we don't look at
these broader influences that we're not actually going to understand
like how to systemically stop this, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, you have to understand how you got somewhere to
like determine how to get out of where you are,
right really yeah, not to be too morbid or like
(28:42):
to make this connection, but like Britain doing that, it's
almost what the evangelical Christians want to do, right ye, Like,
oh well, you guys, just stay here, let's just shove
him on this place that we don't really care about,
and here you go, Like it doesn't even feel like
genuine support, you know what I mean. Like I think
(29:02):
in an alternate universe Jewish people were welcomed into nations
and Britain was like opening their doors to immigrants. I
think that is a much more kind notion in my opinion.
But what I do understand the desire to do otherwise.
But it is interesting to connect those two now that
(29:24):
we've talked about both of them, and how similar that is.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
And on that too, like the most.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Like disturbing like thing that I've figured out in a
while in relation to like this origin history of Zionism.
So like in the beginning of like the Nazi power
in Germany.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
In Germany specifically before.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
They wanted to like kill the Jews, they just wanted
the Jews to leave, so they were like go, just go.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
And I saw this.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
I was in Berlin last summer, and I saw this
picture of Nazis creating like a travel agencies in the
right word, but like a travel depot that was specifically
said like go to Palestine and was like directing Jews
to go to Palestine. So like in that context, like
(30:17):
the state of Israel then has like a totally different
like frame of orgeous story almost, yeah, of being the
place where like the world could send their Jews when
they didn't want them in their home countries. And and
for me that's also like a place that I've really
(30:38):
fixated on is like wait, wait, you can't just like
say you're in solidarity with Jews because you created this
country and we all have to go there, Like you
actually have to stop being anti Semitic, you know, you
actually have to like you should work on that for yeah,
like let us like live in your countries and be safe.
And and it relates back to the evangelicals too, right,
(30:59):
It's like they're all about like being Christian Zionists and
like supporting Israel, but they're also like very anti Semitic
in this country. So it's like it feels like a
similar sort of dynamic of like, yeah, yeah, we support
you because we want you to go there, we want
you to leave this country and go there, and we're
(31:19):
not going to actually make it better for you in
the place where you want to be, which is your
family's home here, you know. So like that's another frame
that I've been working in which makes me just kind
of have a bigger question of like global responsibility for
what's happening in Israel Palestine right now, and how does
(31:40):
like this global resistance to actually addressing anti Semitism like
play into the continued violence against Palestinians.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah, and just to be clear, being an anti Zionist
is not anti Semitic. However, it is important to remember
that just because someone is an anti Zionist doesn't mean
they're not anti Semitic.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It's an important.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Reminder for those engaging in anti Zionists organizing to also
be doing work around anti Semitism, both internally and the
world at large, because both solidarity with Palestinians as well
as ensuring that we're interrogating the anti Semitism in our
lives and the world is vitally important in this moment. Now,
(32:27):
I was trying to divide these two episodes up. You
already know this, I've told you, but just for the audience, like,
I wanted to this first episode to be a little
bit more about the history and about how we got here,
and tomorrow's episode you'll hear about what I really want
to talk to you about. It is like your work
and ancestral healing and how that's a huge part of
your work, and also the community that you've built in
(32:49):
certain organizations. I think that is so critical when it
comes to anti Zionism or having solidarity of Palestinians, because
that's that's what you need to even make change happen.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
So on that note, I'm going to wrap it up
here for now. Amy, can you plug Like if people
want to know more about you and your work, where
they can find you?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
So again, I'm Ami wintrab And I just came out
with this book To the Ghosts who are Still Living.
You can buy it through my publisher, Strangers in a
Tangled Wilderness, or you can also look up my website
amiwintrab dot com, and the book touches on like not
Zionism specifically, but kind of the themes of like place
(33:37):
and land and where do you Jews belong in the world.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah, and their website also has a list of their
other works, which I highly recommend you seek out. I
think voices like Amy's, like yours, are really important when
it comes to talking about I don't know, changing the
world for the better in general, not even about anti Zionism,
but like even just trying to assess something in a
(34:04):
more critical way, in a more personal way, even thinking
about it being ancestral healing, I think is so critical.
So thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
On, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah, of course I'll talk to you tomorrow for you guys.
I'm going to keep talking to them right now for me.
But yeah, tune in tomorrow for a continuation of the
lovely conversation Bye.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for it could happen here. Updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com Slash sources.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Thanks for listening.
Hello, welcome to It could happen here. Yes, this is
what I sound like today. This is sharene just go
with it. If you listen to the Sheep episode, I
sounded much worse. So this is I sound great today,
I amo, but yeah, thank you for listening today. I'm
excited to talk about what I want to talk about
for the next two days because it's something that I've
(00:26):
always wanted to kind of just like open up as
more of a conversation. And I'm so grateful to have
an author and amazing person. They've just written a book
called to the Ghosts Who Are Still Living and it's
out now you can go get it. I'm the Wine Traub.
Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited
(00:47):
to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to
you too.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
There's a particular reason why I asked you to come
on the show. I specifically wanted to talk to a
Jewish anti Zionist. So I want to approach the conversation
as if people are really unfamiliar with Zionism, because I
think most people are. Can you maybe just start by
telling me, like, what is Zionism?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah? Definitely, Yeah, And I said to sharing before as well,
like I am not particularly like an expert on Zion,
I'm sure Israel Palestine. So also just want to recommend
that listeners also go out and find the experts, find
the materials that you're interested in, if this conversation sparks
your interest. Yeah, and take my my thoughts as just
(01:36):
one thought in the mix of all the thoughts. So, Yeah,
when I was thinking about like defining Zionism, I was
thinking about sort of like the origins of Zionism and
like how did we even get to that place?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Zionism for me reflects and I think is like this
political desire to have a Jewish state, and to have
that Jewish state like on the land of Israel.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Is how.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Is how Zionism has materialized in its formation. And prior
to like the actual political movement of Zionism, there has
been like a connection of the Jewish.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
People to that specific land.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It just hadn't materialized into like an actual movement to
establish a state on that land.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So there's like.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
There's been like a yearning and like a memory and
like a collective sense of.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Connection to like Jerusalem, to that piece of land.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
But it was only in like the eighteen hundreds, when
there was nation state building occurring in general in Europe,
specifically in Eastern Europe, that the movement for Zionism started
to develop in the form that we have today. And
a lot of that was because one reason, like Jews
(03:11):
were saying, oh wow, like German people are creating a
state or French people are creating a state, like we
are a people, we should have a state. And at
the same time, Jews were also being excluded from citizenship
in a lot of the actual like newly formed countries
that they were living in. So there was like this
(03:32):
dispossession also from place where they were and matched with
a general like rise of antisemitism as well. So I
think all of those things kind of crystallized into creating
a actual political movement around that kind of nascent like
more like religious spiritual yearning. Yeah, and then that formed
(03:56):
into like many different types of Zionism, like more militaristic
Zionism or socialist si religious Scionism, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And that's all kind of yeah, make its way to
become Israel. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
How would you differentiate all of those like the cultural
versus religious versus political, Like, how would you personally differentiate them.
I know you're not an expert, but just like speaking
of experience, Yeah, I have to think on that. It's complicated,
I would say, because it feels like to me from
just reading about the history of Zionism, it did kind
(04:34):
of start in a religious like origin, but it became
more political.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Am I reading that right?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Or yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
I think like, yeah, that's what can be pretty confusing.
I think about understanding like Zionism in general is just
like where does this even come from? Like how do
these like especially Zionism like originating more from like Ashkenazi
like European Jews.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
How did this even come to be and seen as
something that like.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
The longing and the connection to the land being part
of Jewish culture and religion, but that only turning into
a desire for a nation state like at that certain moment.
So the like different categories of like religious Zionism versus
political versus militaristic versus socialists were kind of like the
(05:27):
ways that Zionism was. There was like different movements of
Zionism in Europe and Eastern Europe at the time of
its origins. So it's kind of like referring to more
of its historical relationship and then that still influences the
politics today in contemporary like I'll just say a state
(05:48):
of Israel and also many like Israel Palestine, but speaking
about Zionism, that feels more relevant. So you still have
like socialist scientists who are more on the left than
you have like more like right wing religious scientists, you
probably have more historical origins and like more militaristic Sietism
and religious scientists who maybe are like we are here
(06:11):
for the religious reasons of being Jews on this land
versus like a socialist scientist. Like their framework was more
like we want to create this more socialist utopia sort
of vision versus more political militaristic Sietists. Their original vision
was like want to dominate this land and have right
(06:32):
political power.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, it feels like in recent times it's kind of
leaned more in that direction, only because of the I
don't know the state of the world. But when you
when you look up Zionism, it's defined I'm just gonna
read what I found and please entrupt me if you're like,
actually no. When you look at zionism was defined as
an organized nationalist movement generally considered to have been founded
(06:58):
by theod Or hers in eighteen ninety seven. However, the
history of Zionism began earlier and is intertwined with the
Jewish history and Judaism as a whole. The organizations of
I'm going to probably mispronounce this, but hoveve Zion the
lovers of Zion.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
How you svitz? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
This organization was held as like the forerunner of the
modern Zionist ideals and they are responsible for twenty Jewish
towns in Palestine between eighteen seventy and eighteen ninety seven.
This is from just online history, and at the core
of the Zionist ideology was this traditional aspiration for a
(07:45):
Jewish national home through the re establishment of Jewish sovereignty
in Palestine, and this was to be facilitated by the
Jewish diaspora. Herzel apparently sought an independent Jewish state, usually
defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority population,
and he wrote a eighteen ninety six pamphlet to describe
(08:09):
exactly what he wanted, and though he did not live
to witness it, Israel was established and so what he
wanted did come to fruition, even though in my opinion
it was not done in a just way, but.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's history for you.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
But yeah, I think the actual core of it is
really understandable and true, you know, like of course every
marginalized community wants a safe haven and a place where
they can all go to. I think my biggest what
I really dislike about where it is now, where zion
(08:51):
him is now, is just how much it erases everyone
else that's already there. It's almost as if Palestine was
like an empty field, you know. And I think a
lot of Zionists today kind of erase that history in
a race that like, they massacred hundreds of people and
they displaced over seven hundred and fifty thousand people. It's
(09:13):
called the neckbut it's called the catastrophe. That's what Palestinians
refer to it as. And I feel like Zionists tend
to not. I mean, from what I understand, it's as
if that isn't like real history. And from what I've read,
or like from what I've heard from people that have
grown up in Israel, the history that they learn is
(09:35):
also a little bit selective in what they learn. But yeah,
that's I've just been I've been reading a lot about
Zionism for a long time. Yeah, but it's nice to
have someone actually like with experience in it because I
can only learn so much from the Internet and from
like secondhand stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I feel like that like like when we look at
like the early Zionists and it's like, oh, yeah, like
these desires to like have sovereignty and have autonomy and
agency for your people who are being marginalized in your
country like or in these lands that they live reasonable,
Like that totally makes sense and that and then it
(10:21):
has to, like you said, be also seeing through the
lens of like the actual history that occurred, which is
materially trying to like build a nation state as like
part of your people's liberation is going to involve lots
of oppression and violence.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And that's kind of where I ended up, like.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, like understanding the history of Zionism, like being able
to have empathy for that original message, and then just
really being like that's what led me into like anarchism ultimately,
was saying that this desire for a niche state to
be like a liberatory project is kind of always going to.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Be flawed in a way.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So actually, like and I kind of said, like you know,
Jewish like agencies, sovereignty and like liberation, like we actually
deserve better than that, you know, being deserved to not
actually be like held within the confines of like what
is possible in a nation state, as I think like
(11:30):
all people deserve.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, totally. So that's kind of how I've come to
this point now.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
No, and I really want to talk to you more
about how you've landed where you are with your beliefs.
But yeah, I think what also gets forgotten is that
pre nineteen forty eight, there were Jewish people in Palestine,
you know, and Christian people everyone got along. I'm from Syria,
but even in Syria everyone, like in all in most
(11:55):
Middle Eastern countries, there was a mix of all these
religions and they all got along. And I think that's
what really angers me when it comes to like basically
like the news saying it's like this ancient religious conflict,
because that's just simply not true. And I think that's
a huge defense that a lot of like militant Zionists have,
where it's like this eternal cultural religious war and it's
(12:21):
simply just false. I think that's something that always bothers me.
I just want to give a little bit more history
just to bring us to like current day. Just I
think it's this stuff is a little bit interesting. So
in nineteen seventy five the UN General Assembly they passed
Resolution three three seven nine, which designated Zionism as a
(12:42):
form of racism and racial discrimination. However, this resolution was
repealed in nineteen ninety one by replacing Resolution three three
seventy nine with Resolution four to six slash eight six,
and this new resolution it was adopted on December sixteenth
and nineteen ninety one. It revoked the determination in the
previous resolution three three seventy nine determining Zionism as racist,
(13:07):
and Israel had made the certification of this resolution a
condition of its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference, which
was a conference that was held at the end of
nineteen ninety one, and it was also raised under pressure
of the administration of President Bush. Papa, I just find
(13:28):
that funny, No, hw Bush, I'm sorry, this is not
funny stuff. I just this is how I cope. But
basically the revocation was simply this one sentence, the General
Assembly decides to revoke the determination contained in its Resolution
three three seventy nine of tenth of December nineteen seventy five,
and this motion was supported by one hundred and eleven nations,
(13:52):
including the ninety nations who had sponsored it in the
first place, and it was opposed by twenty five nations
and abstained by thirteen nations. And I just thought that
was incredibly fascinating. It also just like illustrates the power
that Israel has always kind of like held, like as
far as like a political state in like world affairs.
(14:15):
And if you've listened to my previous episodes, then you
know that at the current state in time, and like
for decades leading up to this, the government in Israel
is extremely far right and Zionist to the point where
it's extremely racist, and they've built an apartheid state based
around their Zionism. Basically, Dianis values serve as the ideological
(14:38):
foundation of Israel. I think that's kind of a big
part of why Israel was created in the first place,
was this hope for a place where everyone was safe.
Obviously that kind of became twisted and they went about
it in a terrible way. But I do understand what
you mean also by having empathy for the original feel
(15:00):
of it, because I feel the same. I think every
marginalized community wants what the original idea of Zionism had.
I think Zionis today is defined so differently, and I
think that's really unfortunate because it didn't have to become
a racist ideology, but it did. I've been rambling too much,
and we're going to take our first break. When we
(15:20):
come back, I want to talk to you about you,
so Brb and we're back, Ammie, take it away what
he had a response for the thing I said about
(15:43):
how Zion's values they serve as the ideological foundation of Israel.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, And I think one of the things that I
try to like make a point of kind of as
like a Jewish anarchist specifically, Like what I was saying
prior is that that's again like kind of just the inevitable, well,
in my mind, like the inevitable outcome of like a
state is that there is going to be some amount
of like division of population, like oppression of a certain
(16:14):
class of people or certain group of people, a consolidation
of power in the hands of a few. So again,
for me, like that's where this like the original idea
of like let's have a place where Jews can have
like safety and sovereignty and cultural like flourishing. Like attaching
(16:36):
that to a state was like kind of always bound
to fail, but not inherent like not exactly because like
notationially because that desire is like a wrong desire.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, and then when we pile in kind.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Of like like other people's interests in terms of like
the West having like an interest in having like Israel
being like a friendly like I consider like a proxy
state the West like in the Middle East where they
can you know, like we've seen like send their police
officers to be trained in these ways. But also the
(17:09):
West is benefiting from that exchange.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
They have a little hole in the Middle East like
they always wanted to exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
So their interest is to like maintain Israel like as
something that they can have influence in and have this
kind of control over and like to make it creepier
like the Christian like Evangelical Zionism, like Christian Zionism is
also like a huge influence in the US.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
There was just a.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Really interesting documentary I can't remember the name now that
that was released like a year or two ago about
this and Christian Zionists actually make up like a larger
lobbying body than like Jewish Zionists in the US just
backward because they there's just so many more evangelicals and
interest in the state of Israel is that Jews will
(18:03):
return there and then the rapture will happen.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Wait can you Yeah, I actually want to talk to
you about this because I one hundred percent think you
know more about this than I do, because I do.
I have heard that there are a lot of evangelical
Christians that are huge supporters of Zionism. Yeah, one, can
you speak to like if you know how that even
like where that uh, I don't know, not solid I
(18:30):
guess like solidarity with Zionism came about, and also what
they believe, like the whole rapture thing.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Please, I would love to know more.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yet again, like people like watch whatever this documentary is,
you just google like Christian Zionism, because I've mostly learned
from that and from my own like internet wormholes.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I've just looked it up and I think it's Till
Kingdom Come twenty twenty film, right, Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Cool?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
And so what I understand is there is this like
somewhere in the Christian world, but like it has roots
at least in the evangelical world. Right now, this idea
in the Rapture, which I don't know that much about,
but apparently the rapture will involve Jews returning to the
land of Israel and Jesus returning and killing all of
(19:19):
the Jews. Oh my god. Yeah, they support Zionism. That
is why they support Zionism. So they walked. Yeah, so
they want Jews to go back to the land the
state of Israel in order for them to ultimately like
be killed and go to hellp all in.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
One place and be conveniently killed.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Yeah, and so that and that is one of the
major lobbying arms. Like when we're talking about like the
US like sending money to to Israel, and like I
just saw recently, like like most of the Republicans are
like supporting.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
This, yeah, the aid going to Israel.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And it's like why are they doing that when generally
they don't really support Jews, you know, like Republicans are
not like BFFs with Jews, Like they.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Don't really I mean inherently that way of seeing Zionism
is one hundred percent racist. Like it's like people are
or not not even just that anti semitic, you know
how anti semitic. That's really the defense all of the
time when you have like a Palestinian politician talk about
Israel or anything not even Zionism as mens in Israel,
and then they get labeled as tiseemitic, but.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
That is one hundred percent anti Semitics. It's actually antisemitic.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Well, and it's like it doesn't get noticed because like
I feel like so much that like white Christians do
in this country just like gets very overlooked as like
something that actually has something that's actually worth like noticing
and something that's actually worth like critiquing. So I and
(21:00):
trying to understand, like how did we get to this place?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Like how did we get to.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
This point where like, yeah, Israel is being supportive and
doing what it is doing right now to Palestinians. It
has moved, in my opinion, so far away from like
an actual like vision of like Jewish liberation. And then
you look at like who's actually really supporting this project
right now, and it's people who actually just want us
(21:24):
to die. It becomes very convoluted, and it again motivates
my anti Zionism in a lot of ways too.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, can you tell me as little and as many
details as you want, But how did you come to
identify as an anti Zionist. How did you become How
did you embrace that definition for yourself?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I guess there's a lot of aspects to that answer.
One thing is like I do really care about like
Jewish people being safe and Jewish people having our culture,
like Jewish will be able to express our culture, be
able to express who we are. And I think, yeah,
like being two or three generations from like the Holocaust
(22:07):
and just like feeling like the intensity of that loss
of life and land and place has just like given
me that feeling of like this is really important. And
then also like living out of time right now in
the US, where like anti Semitism is violent and I've
experienced that violence and it is like a threat to
(22:28):
like my sense of safety and my ability to express
my culture. I've just been like very obsessed with, like
what does actually achieving those goals look like? Yeah, And
when I look at the state of Israel and I
see all eighteen year olds are conscripted into the army,
which is like literally like my great grandfather left Russia
because he didn't want to be conscripted into the Russian army,
(22:49):
and a lot of Jews Ashurazi Jews in the US
like have that story, like that's not liberation when I
see that, like a lot of Jews in Israel have
the choice of either being like very secular or being
extremely religious, when even like a lot of more diverse
like Jewish cultures have been assimilated into like this one
(23:13):
monolithic culture. Languages have been lost, like practices have been lost,
Like that's not like our culture being able to flourish.
And also the violence done to Palestinians, like in the
name of the state and the name of this liberation,
like nothing, nothing is worth that violence. Ever, so all
(23:33):
of those things have kind of coalesced into my Jewish
anarchism of also analyzing that through the state apparatus itself
and being like, oh, yeah, states will do this. We
need to think more creatively, We need to think in
a way that builds actual solidarity between Jewish community and
Palestinian community and other marginalized people.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
And all of that has.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Kind of just coalesced into Jewish anti Zionism, like just
making sense on all of those levels.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, no, I thank you for saying all of that.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I think nothing is worth all that violence. And also
I think unfortunately, like when you have any kind of desire,
no matter how pure it is, because I think the
basis of Zion is and has a pure desire of
safety and sovereignty. But when you have a desire and
you add politics to it, or you add I don't know,
(24:31):
any kind of like country war anything. When you add
like modern day limitations and structures, that's when it becomes
something else. It devolves into something that it really shouldn't be. Like,
I think what disserves me the most is how many
young people are like rallying in the streets, like a
(24:52):
lot of like far right groups in Israel will be
like death to all Arabs or like they'll say the
most heinous things as well as do the most heinous things.
But I think it's unfortunate because I think even they
kind of lost what zion is was supposed to be about.
It's not supposed to be about being only there, just
you and killing everybody else, or or seeing someone else
(25:15):
as second as second citizens or anything. But no, I yeah,
thank you for saying all that. The army thing is
a really good thing to bring up as well, just
because Palestine has no army, so it's a little bit
silly to demand everyone and even join the army for
this fake, imaginary bad guy. Not that there is not
(25:36):
there's definitely terrorist like activity on both sides, I would say,
but the vast majority is like this imaginary big bad
wolf that does not exist and is like powered by
US and Western media totally.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
And that's where I start to think, like I don't
know if this is like conspiracy or if this is real,
but I start to think, like who is this actually serving,
you know, like who is it serving to, like literally, yeah,
put young people into a war every in every generation
that comes through this country, and like, is it mostly
(26:15):
serving like US and other like Western interests to be
able to ye have that land be their proxy state.
And I don't have enough research to like back that
claim up in a way that I would like to.
That's that's like my next like research wormhole is to
try and yeah, just understand like that dynamic, because I
(26:35):
think something else that I have a lot of questions
about you, and like the formation of the state of
Israel is like yeah, understanding that like England did, or
like I don't ready Great Britain in England. I think
England they were the ones who like practitioned that land
and like they were the ones who ultimately signed it over.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, the British are was possible forty of the world
They no, no, fake you no.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
And sometimes like forgetting that part of the story kind
of almost like contributes to this kind of like anti
Semitic rhetoric of like, oh the Jews are this like
all powerful people who were just able to conquer this
land on their own.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
It's like a conspiracy theory fuel.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yeah, when it's like no, like actually, like the Jews
at that time did not have like global power in that.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Way like England.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Britain was like here you go, here's this land in
the same way that they did like so much of
the other colonized places in that world in the world.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, I mean the British are responsible for.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Every bad thing, and like.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
For me, like that bigger lens feels harder to talk
about sometimes because I also like am also holding that
like Jewish American support for the state of Israel, like Fuels,
also autrocity is happening against Palestidian's Jewish support for the
IDEF in Israel, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Like obviously are responsible.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And like I worry that if we don't look at
these broader influences that we're not actually going to understand
like how to systemically stop this, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, you have to understand how you got somewhere to
like determine how to get out of where you are,
right really yeah, not to be too morbid or like
(28:42):
to make this connection, but like Britain doing that, it's
almost what the evangelical Christians want to do, right ye, Like,
oh well, you guys, just stay here, let's just shove
him on this place that we don't really care about,
and here you go, Like it doesn't even feel like
genuine support, you know what I mean. Like I think
(29:02):
in an alternate universe Jewish people were welcomed into nations
and Britain was like opening their doors to immigrants. I
think that is a much more kind notion in my opinion.
But what I do understand the desire to do otherwise.
But it is interesting to connect those two now that
(29:24):
we've talked about both of them, and how similar that is.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
And on that too, like the most.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Like disturbing like thing that I've figured out in a
while in relation to like this origin history of Zionism.
So like in the beginning of like the Nazi power
in Germany.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
In Germany specifically before.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
They wanted to like kill the Jews, they just wanted
the Jews to leave, so they were like go, just go.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
And I saw this.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
I was in Berlin last summer, and I saw this
picture of Nazis creating like a travel agencies in the
right word, but like a travel depot that was specifically
said like go to Palestine and was like directing Jews
to go to Palestine. So like in that context, like
(30:17):
the state of Israel then has like a totally different
like frame of orgeous story almost, yeah, of being the
place where like the world could send their Jews when
they didn't want them in their home countries. And and
for me that's also like a place that I've really
(30:38):
fixated on is like wait, wait, you can't just like
say you're in solidarity with Jews because you created this
country and we all have to go there, Like you
actually have to stop being anti Semitic, you know, you
actually have to like you should work on that for yeah,
like let us like live in your countries and be safe.
And and it relates back to the evangelicals too, right,
(30:59):
It's like they're all about like being Christian Zionists and
like supporting Israel, but they're also like very anti Semitic
in this country. So it's like it feels like a
similar sort of dynamic of like, yeah, yeah, we support
you because we want you to go there, we want
you to leave this country and go there, and we're
(31:19):
not going to actually make it better for you in
the place where you want to be, which is your
family's home here, you know. So like that's another frame
that I've been working in which makes me just kind
of have a bigger question of like global responsibility for
what's happening in Israel Palestine right now, and how does
(31:40):
like this global resistance to actually addressing anti Semitism like
play into the continued violence against Palestinians.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah, and just to be clear, being an anti Zionist
is not anti Semitic. However, it is important to remember
that just because someone is an anti Zionist doesn't mean
they're not anti Semitic.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It's an important.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Reminder for those engaging in anti Zionists organizing to also
be doing work around anti Semitism, both internally and the
world at large, because both solidarity with Palestinians as well
as ensuring that we're interrogating the anti Semitism in our
lives and the world is vitally important in this moment. Now,
(32:27):
I was trying to divide these two episodes up. You
already know this, I've told you, but just for the audience, like,
I wanted to this first episode to be a little
bit more about the history and about how we got here,
and tomorrow's episode you'll hear about what I really want
to talk to you about. It is like your work
and ancestral healing and how that's a huge part of
your work, and also the community that you've built in
(32:49):
certain organizations. I think that is so critical when it
comes to anti Zionism or having solidarity of Palestinians, because
that's that's what you need to even make change happen.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
So on that note, I'm going to wrap it up
here for now. Amy, can you plug Like if people
want to know more about you and your work, where
they can find you?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
So again, I'm Ami wintrab And I just came out
with this book To the Ghosts who are Still Living.
You can buy it through my publisher, Strangers in a
Tangled Wilderness, or you can also look up my website
amiwintrab dot com, and the book touches on like not
Zionism specifically, but kind of the themes of like place
(33:37):
and land and where do you Jews belong in the world.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah, and their website also has a list of their
other works, which I highly recommend you seek out. I
think voices like Amy's, like yours, are really important when
it comes to talking about I don't know, changing the
world for the better in general, not even about anti Zionism,
but like even just trying to assess something in a
(34:04):
more critical way, in a more personal way, even thinking
about it being ancestral healing, I think is so critical.
So thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
On, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah, of course I'll talk to you tomorrow for you guys.
I'm going to keep talking to them right now for me.
But yeah, tune in tomorrow for a continuation of the
lovely conversation Bye.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for it could happen here. Updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com Slash sources.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Thanks for listening.
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