August 4, 2023 • 37 mins
Shereen is once again joined by author Ami Weintraub to talk about their work in ancestral healing, building a diasporist Jewish community, and their new incredible book To The Ghosts Who Are Still Living, available now.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to it could happen here. Yes,
I still sound like this. It was the same day
for me, but thank you for joining me again. Today
is part two of a conversation I'm having with Amy
Wine Traub about Antizionism and why it's important. And today
I want to talk about their work and how much
(00:27):
of anti siism is actually based in ancestral healing. And yeah,
I want to just tell you guys a bunch of
good stuff because AMI's work I think is really important.
So welcome back, Hi, thanks for having me. Hello. Of course,
I think when we first started talking about wanting to
record together, you mentioned that talking about ancestral healing was
(00:50):
really integral and even your definition of anti Zionism, could
you kind of explain why?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Sure, Yeah, I feel like me mean, it's also the
other way around, like my coming into like anti Zionism
led me into a path of ancestral healing, because I
think something that we talked about, like in the last episode,
is that a lot of the motivation for at least
(01:18):
like the early origins of Zionism was the desire for
safety and the desire to like have cultural expression, like
Jewish cultural expression be possible, and so I started to think,
like why were those the desires of the time, and
sort of moving back into my family's history, which so
(01:43):
much of it has been like silenced because of like
the pain of the history, and also in some ways
because you've been told, you know, like you have a place,
you have the home you live in now, and you
have the state of Israel and you don't have to
think about where you came from before, know, And so
a lot of my work has been kind of like
(02:03):
opening up that conversation of like, but where where did
my great grandparents like actually come from? Like what was
that place? Why do they leave? What is the longing
that we have for safety long than we have for home,
And what does it look like to actually turn that
longing back to yeah, for my family like our homes
(02:23):
in Eastern Europe, And that's kind of where I've been
positioning a lot of my work these days.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, I think you bring up a good point about
how even having Israel there almost eRASS like the the
history of a lot of Jewish people, right, because it
kind of just like, yeah, it's almost as if like, oh,
this is where we all come from, and this is
where we all end up and it's just simply not true.
Can you tell me, well, first, could you define ancestral
(02:53):
healing to me? And like what that means to you?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I feel like for me and social healing has been
the process of opening up to the voices of my
ancestors and allowing them to really speak to me, and
starting to see that like the pain and the grief
and yeah, just the sorrow that I was carrying in
my own body wasn't just my own. Yeah, And that
(03:18):
sort of growing awareness has become like the avenue to
which I can do ancestral healing, which sometimes looks like
learning a ton about like a specific Jewish practice that
perhaps someone in my family at some point did and
we've now forgotten. Or sometimes it looks like researching on Wikipedia,
(03:45):
like the flowers that grew in my family's like Stuttle
in Eastern Europe. And sometimes it looks like just crying
and being sad about like the things that we've lost.
And sometimes it looks like talking to my ancestors, like
in meditation or trance states, and offering them back the
(04:11):
healing that I'm doing in this generation.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, I love that. I love especially the flowers I
think really got me. Just like those little details are
so important and really defined a place. I mean, I
think it's essentual healing is so important for like most
people in general. I think it's kind of taken maybe
(04:34):
not taken too seriously by some normies. I don't know,
but even for me, I mean, our histories are very different.
But I think what you've said about like recognizing that,
like your pain is not just your own, like you're
carrying a lot of a bird in generation from generation
to generation. And I think acknowledging that and learning more
(04:55):
about yourself anyone can do that you don't. It doesn't
have to be a certain I don't know. I think
that's what I always kind of want to get across that, Like,
even for me, I found ancestral healings to be really important.
I define it in a different way, but it's still
like I don't know a lot about my family's history,
so that's been a little bit like A huge origin
(05:17):
of that is because like there's a lot of confusion there.
But I love that you are taking as like an
internal journey and also like recognizing that there's a connection there.
I think people don't look at it as much as
I want them to. I guess I think it's a
little bit too petty for people, and it really isn't.
It's just about like evolving and knowing yourself better, like
(05:39):
when you really when it really comes down to it, totally.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, and for me too, like so like a lot
of in my book, I talk a lot about like
birch trees and the flowers that grow in this places
of my ancestors were in, like the lakes and the frogs,
and and a big reason for that too is because
like my ancestors aren't there anymore, Like there are no
(06:06):
more like Jewish people.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
In those places necessarily to like tell the story.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
So when I think about, like how do I really
learn about who my ancestors were or what their practices
and their culture was, It's like, oh, at least I
can see what they saw, you know. I can see
the trees, I can see the frogs, and the land
is holding that story for me if I can just
open up and listen to it. So that's also been
(06:34):
like part of it for me as well as like
opening up like opportunity for like connection and joy even
in the face of a lot of destruction. And again
also like you're saying, I really think this is something
that like most people can do and is really enriching
and would help us like all kind of metabolize like
(06:58):
so much of what has happened in the twentieth century.
Before the twentieth century, just like there's been so much
like disruption and violence like that's happened for so many people. Yeah,
and still happening obviously, and in America, in like the
dominant American culture, I think there's like a really big
emphasis on like forgetting and just kind of being in
(07:19):
this like present moment and not realizing that we've come
from somewhere.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And I just really resist that.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
That like urge to forget, and I for me, that's
also part of ancestral healing is like how do we
learn to remember?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Now.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I think the thing that really made me realize that
es cecral healing is extremely real and necessary was maybe
like a a how long ago, was maybe like ten
years ago. I learned something about a family member that
really put into context something that I was going through
and that I have always felt and just part with
(08:01):
who I am. And I'm being vague about it because
it's just personal. But we could talk off Mike if
you want, but for audience purposes. The point that I'm
trying to get across is I learned something, and I
learned more about myself, and I was almost more at
peace with how much I was struggling with what it was.
(08:22):
And I let myself be okay with how much I
was struggling and the pain I was carrying because I
recognized it wasn't just mine, it was it was hers.
So yeah, I think if you ask me what the
whole point of life is, it's self. Maybe not improvements
the right word, but like self discovery and like I
(08:42):
don't know nature and leaving a place better than you
found it. I think it's as simple as that. I
think it gets really convoluted with other things. But yeah,
as you said, I think anyone could benefit from learning
more because I agree. I think. Well you said about
(09:03):
forgetting really resonated with me.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
So yeah, really like that, and like America has built unforgetting,
like we're supposed to forget, like the genocide of indigenous
peoples on this land we're supposed to forget, like the
horrors of slavery. We're supposed to just forget, like even
what's happening right now in our country. So I think
the act of remembering is like has so much power
(09:29):
to shake like the current moment and to bring us
to a new place.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
It's ironic that like the biggest slogan of one of
America's most tragic events is don't forget when about Yeah, totally,
it's like, oh, this is the one thing you're gonna say, Yeah,
let's forget about everything else though, totally.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, And it's such like that's our memory. Like, And
in Germany they do have a lot about like memory culture.
That's like a really like specific term that they have
and like we don't even have that.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, we wouldn't even have that term here in the US. Wait,
can you explain that to me a little bit if
you if you know about it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So Germany does have like a big like culture around
like remembering the atrocities of the Holocaust, right, and they
call it like memory culture. So that's like monuments or
museums just like how is like World War two discussed?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
How is the Holocaust remembered? And yeah, like they remember
a lot more than we do, which is ironic and
also not in some ways.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
But yeah, we don't even have that concept here in
the same way of like memory culture, like what is
our cultural of remembering? And and I think obviously there
has been some amount of that around, like yeah, like
indigenous history and like Black history in relation to like
monuments and Thanksgiving and like all of those things, but
(11:04):
we don't have like really like memory culture like integrated
into like a day to day existence, and in fact
it's obviously being even fought against, like in Florida and
other places like that. Oh, I just love that that
idea of memory culture in general. I've never heard of
that love that so much. And I mean just even
(11:25):
thinking about it, just as we're talking Germany, has they
refuse to forget an atrocity that they did, right? I
think it's it's a little bit interesting that in America
they've forgotten about the atrocities they did and they want
to not forget about an atrocity that was done to them.
So it's almost like very victimy of America if you
(11:48):
ask me, because it's really easy not to forget when
someone wronged you, but I think it's really convenient to
forget when you, you know, destroy the entire civilization you
know what I mean to put it lightly exactly, and
I'm not trying to say to take nine to eleven
(12:11):
lightly at all.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I think what happened was atrocious and terrible. But when
you think about memory culture and what Germany is so
committed to remembering versus America, just a little interesting to
me now that I think about it, and who committed
who or who committed what? Rather. Yeah, before I get
rid to Rambley, let's take our first break and we'll
(12:32):
be right back, and we're back with Amy. Amy. When
we were talking about recording together, in addition to ancestral healing,
(12:52):
you talked about the importance of building a diasporus Jewish
community that has committed to solidarity with Palestinians and other
marginalized people, generally through an anarchist lens, and also building
a safe community for Jews outside of Israel to counter
the rhetoric that the only place that's safe for Jews
(13:13):
is Israel. And as you said, it generally leads to
a large focused on anti fascism and cultural reclamation. So
can you talk to me a little bit about that.
And then there's certain communities that you're a part of
that I really want to get into, but let's start there.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, so kind of in this journey, I would say
of saying, okay, like if we're going to be Jewish antiesionist,
so we're going to be Jewish anarchists.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Like what does that materially look like? Like how do we.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Put that into practice? And so yeah, I kind of
honed it on those two aspects again of safety and culture,
and so a lot of my work now is around
thinking about, like how do we create safety for Jews
in the place is where they are living in diaspora,
development into like growing to this like Jewish antigonism and
(14:07):
Jewish anarchism, trying to understand like what does it mean
to like actually put this into practice, and or when
I was thinking of that, I was trying to think of,
like how do we create safety for Jews in the
places where they want to live in diaspora and also
create the environment where Jewish culture is able to flourish.
(14:27):
And that's led me, like you said, to developing and
supporting and working with a lot of Jewish communities that
are like committed to like anti fascism, committed to solidarity
with other marginalized peoples, and also really committed to like
reclamation of Jewish traditions, specifically by like more marginalized people
(14:50):
within the Jewish community as well. And I really see
like those projects as like part of my like solidarity work,
even though it supporting like Jewish peoples in the day
to day, but ultimately it's creating a spaciousness where Jews
don't feel like they have to like cling on to
(15:11):
Zionism in the ways that they were before. And I'm
really curious also of like how to sort of make
that practice more visible to the general left, because I
do like a big part of like the book I'm writing,
(15:32):
like there's a whole section of me talking about what
it's like to have lived in Pittsburgh like before and
after the Tree of Life shooting, where I was a
teacher at the synagogue at the time that had happened.
So my life was like very impacted by this like
really like horrible like active violence, like antisemitic violence. And
(15:56):
the most shocking part was that like anti Semitism was
occurring before that happened, and it still continued after.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Like in Pittsburgh specifically, So like the question left me
with is like.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Are we actually addressing like the rise of anti Semitism
in America today, And that's why I want to like
really talk about this praxis of like addressing anti Semitism
and allowing in creating space where Jewish culture can flourish,
like as a practice that I'm curious for more people
(16:31):
on the left to understand as like vitally important like
for Jewish people and also for solidarity with Palestinians too.
So that's that's my topic that I'm very interested in
right now.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
No, I love that. I think it's so important what
you're saying and so necessary to build a community where
Jewish people feel safe that so yeah, exactly, they don't
have to go on to Zionism as a way to
feel accepted or safe or belonged or have belonging anywhere.
And in that way, it's it's really simple to see
(17:10):
how that is intertwined with solidarity of the Palestinians, because
it ultimately is saying like Israel is all the end,
all be all, Like we're at the end of the day,
people going through shit have we have our cultures and
we have to stick by each other. Maybe that's a
little bit elementary, but I think what I'm trying to say,
(17:31):
is I really appreciate that you have built this community
and are so committed to continuing to enrich it and
develop it, because I think that's so essential, especially just
considering like the idea of Zionism in the first place,
Like that really pure intention that was there. I think
(17:55):
it's okay to still live on in certain areas because
it was pure. It was about Israel at all, Israel
as it is today rather Yeah, so can you tell
me about this organization Rage? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So, Rage is this small collective called that CRADEM stands
for Rebellious Anarchists Young Jews. In the most basic sense,
we formed this as like a sort of response to
like the Zionism that we were experiencing around us, and
a lot of it, like the word rage being like
(18:30):
anger of like wow, I can't believe, like this is
what's being sold to us as like our liberation. And
what it formed into was like after the Tree of
Life shooting my sibling pretty much text memes like let's
make this thing happen again, and we started to create
like more like political like Jewish anarchist like art and
(18:52):
writing and putting it out on Facebook, and people started
responding to it and it really felt like a piece
of like the rising of like a Jewish anarchist movement
in this country right now, a piece of many, but
something that kind of was like a light or like
(19:15):
what's the phrase, like like a bat signal is the
only way I can put it of. Like, hey, like
all of you out there who are thinking about like
what Jewish anarchism might mean, are thinking about like what
like organizing could look like when it's based on our
culture and our practices and has like deep reverence for
(19:37):
that instead of like an embarrassment around our practices. All
of you who are like creative and artistic and that's
your mode of engagement, of engaging like we can come
together and we can like create something new, and that
has just like that desire has just grown since then
and it's being reflected and so much organizing right now.
(20:00):
Enrage itself is like not we're not really doing as
much as a collective anymore, but definitely that spirit is
like living on in a lot of like in the
book I'm writing, and like the work that my sibling's doing,
and in a lot of like the artistic creation that's
happening around Jewish anarchism.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I love that. That's so cool. I'm really grateful that
out of something so horrific that you went through, you
were able to come together with your sibling and almost
use that as fuel to really come together. I think
it's really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, And I think that's like that felt like the
challenge in that moment was like, are we gonna use
this as a moment to like support the police who
you know, killed the shooter. We're going to use us
a moment to like buddy up with the politicians who
are trying to like befriend the Jewish community now all
(20:55):
of a sudden, Or are we going to use as
a moment, like a big phrase that was thrown around
in Pittsburgh was like safety and solidarity, or we're going
to use as a moment to really affirm that message
and to really like speak to the danger that we
are feeling as Jews in this country and the resilience
that we have and the resistance and the revolutionary power
we have to like sort of call out the systems
(21:22):
that are creating that. And I'm really grateful, yeah, that
my sibling and others around me were able to like
create that path through a more revolutionary mode.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, Oh, it's important. Especially, Yeah, you don't want to
see your community use as a tool for politics. I
think having that be a product of such a tragedy
is shameful, and so fighting against that, I think is
really necessary to maintain a sense of like reality, to
(21:54):
be honest, like and not get caught up in like
whatever reality I don't know, politicians or the media or
whatever the shit wants you to believe in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, So a few years after rage kind of continued
to grow, I was able to found this community center
called ret Zone Center for Healing and Resistance in Pittsburgh.
And it's a queer Jewish anarchist community center, the only
(22:26):
one believe it or not in the US.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Maybe it's the world, but also sad, you know what
I mean, Like I love it, I also have disappointed it.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yes, And it was like obviously a lot of community support,
like like i'd say, like I founded it, but it
was more like I had the ability to like kind
of pulled people together, pull together a space, get grant money,
like do that type of work. And the idea is
really like when we are like in political struggle, we
(23:04):
need to resist, but we also need to heal. And
I think I was just also feeling like a lot
And this was like in twenty nineteen ish, So the
like integration of like healing and more like therapeutic techniques
I felt like into like political frameworks like wasn't happening
(23:25):
as much at the time as I think it is
now even and just really claiming like we can't do
political work without like our like healing work, and again
like that creating a space where we could engage in
like anti fascists organizing, we could engage in solidarity with
other like marginalized people, and we could also really honor
(23:46):
Jewish tradition and let that be like a foundation for us.
And yeah, I ended up leaving the community this time
last year to like pursue other things, but it still
is existing in Pittsburgh. Are gonna still like very much
like a a hub for not just Jewish people too,
(24:07):
but like a lot of people who are engaging in
you and resistance work.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, it's just I love that it exists. And also
just I was thinking, actually I'm gonna hold that thought
and I want to take our second break. Are you
gonna have to cut back and see what I was
gonna say? So enjoy these ads, Okay, we're back. I
(24:40):
had a coffee bit and now I'm back. I was
going to say that I love that all those things
can be true at the same time, like Jewish solidarity
and Palestinian solidarity, and remembering and practicing like traditional rituals
and culture and traditions and practices and all this stuff.
I think it's nice to remember that all of those
(25:01):
can be true at the same time, because I think,
especially now, people identify anti Zionism with anti Semitism, and
I think it's really important to see a community of
Jewish people like embracing their religion and culture and loving
it and at the same time supporting Palestine, because it's
just the clearest example of how Zionism is not a
(25:24):
factor and your love of your culture and your religion.
I think it's a really good example of just I
don't know, demonstrating how much of a falsity that is
in the first place, to equate those two together when
really Zionism itself is anti Semitic, as we mentioned in
the last episode. I also want to give us plenty
(25:47):
of time to talk about your work, and as much
as you want to tell us about your new book
to the ghosts who are Still Living. It's out and
now everybody go get it. It's a book of essays
and yeah, can you if you want to tell me
how you came about even starting to write these essays
(26:08):
and like what motivated you to embark on this journey.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yes, So I just came out today with this book
to the Ghost Tour Still Living, and it's my first
book that I've written, and it's pretty much a collection
of essays that is broken up into three sections. The
first section is like stories of my ancestors in Eastern
Europe and their lives and them coming to America and
(26:34):
like that process. The second section is my stories of
living in Pittsburgh during the rise of antiseptism. And the
third section is returning back to my ancestors Shuttle, which
the village in Lithuania last summer with my sister and
kind of yeah, grappling with these questions of.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Like do I belong here? Like what is this land?
Where am I? Like where do I Where can I
be in the world?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
So I guess like the clearest moment of when I
felt like I needed to write this was during the
summer of twenty twenty and there was an incident that
I write about in the book of Nazis coming to
like the anarchist bookstore in Pittsburgh, which was like a
few blocks from my house at the time, and they
(27:23):
were I don't even remember like exactly what their posters said,
but they were handing out these like anti anarchists posters
that like probably had something anti Semitic on them also
or just like that vibe was there and they were
just flying, and the cops came up and shook hands
(27:44):
with these Nazis and let them stay.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Wow and but sail out exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And then the Nazis actually ended up pulling a gun
on some of the anti fascist protesters who were there
and didn't actually end up like shooting anyone, but.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
That was the scene of what had happened. But still
the fact that that he whoever that was able to
do that in the cops were like Anyboddy, yeah exactly,
just to make it more clear how shit the cops are.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Totally and so yeah, I just witnessed that all happen,
and it just kind of felt like the last the
last straw, I guess, the last thing, and I just
felt like kind of ripped open inside realizing that the
(28:36):
anti Semitism that I had been researching, like in my
own family's.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
History was like happening right now, like to me in
this moment, and I just.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Had this feeling that like I was like, I don't
know if people on the left or people in general
are like really seeing what's happening, you know, really like
understanding like the fear that I have, like as a
Jewish person right now, And I'm not sure if people
are like understanding that connection to like the contemporary fascism
(29:08):
that's happening in the US, to the fascism that my
ancestors experienced.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
And it made me really sad, and it made.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Me like really feel so much pain because I just
didn't want my family stories to be like forgotten or
not to be remembered in this moment when I think
we're trying to understand what's happening in this country, and
like my family has already gone through a lot of
what's happened, you know. Yeah, yeah, and we're being attacked
(29:36):
now in that way.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I mean, as far as our history books go, an
dis Semitism ended when all of as ended, right exactly
so in the US like saved the day. Yeah, and
now exactly. I think that's literally the narrative that a
lot of people believe in this in this country, which
is so unfortunate because it just, yeah, it's so what
incidents like this happen. It's not just like out of
(30:01):
the blue. It's because there's this lingering hatred and fascism
that's been there and just growing and evolving and going undetected.
Even though it's so obvious, it's just become I don't know,
maybe I was gonna say more subtle, but at this
point it's subtle at all. They're very outright about it,
(30:21):
but I think it's like almost become like normalized, just
exactly exactly. But no, I thank you for sharing that, uh,
And I mean I can imagine that potentially this book
was like maybe healthy process or like heal a little
bit yourself that that happened definitely.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, Like at a certain point I was writing these
essays and I was like, I don't even need to
do anything with this, Like this has been like the
most healing project that I've already done, and so like, also,
my hope with this book is that the healing that
it's offered me it can offer to others and I've
kind of been thinking of it as like in Jewish myth,
(31:06):
there's like this idea of like a golam or a
gollum that's like this monster created from the Mud with
like the word emmet written on its forehead, which means truth,
and this monster is like raised from the Mud to
protect the Jewish community of Prague against anti Semitism. WHOA, yeah,
(31:28):
it's a really cool story.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So I've kind of been like, oh, I wonder if,
like this book can I kind of be like a gollum,
you know, like this kind of anti fascists monster, mud
creature made from words that can like offer healing and
maybe offer some like protection in this moment. So that's
(31:54):
that's my greatest hope for this book right now.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That's first of all about being my monster. I love that,
Love that for you, and love that for me, love
it for everybody. It's second, I think that's a beautiful
intent and I think it one hundred percent will help
others heal, And even if the person reading it is
(32:18):
not Jewish, I think it's important to remember and to
realize that you still have very real fear being a
Jewish person living in America or anywhere else, you know,
because anti Semitism didn't get solved when Hitler shot himself.
If I'm sorry, guys, And so I think this book
(32:38):
can help a lot of people, and I really encourage
everyone to go buy it now. We're recording today on
August first, and today is when it was released, so
by the time you hear it, it'll be out and
ready to be read. I just highly encourage you to
really dive into Omni's work because it's just so important
and so healing for everybody. Thank you, of course, I
(33:03):
really appreciate you taking the time to open yourself up,
and because I know a lot of these things have
really painful origins, and so I appreciate that you're willing
to talk about them. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah. And I also hope that like, yeah, like this
book also can sort of be like a window for
like leftists who want to like integrate more like Jewish
history into their anti fascism, that it can be like
a window for that, And I do hope like also
that it can like also build bridges with like other
(33:37):
peoples who have experienced genocide, experience displacement from lands, experienced
like experience ongoing like fear for their safety where they
are in the world. And I hope it also like
sharing like my family stories that like those bridges can
start to like be built and we can start to
(33:59):
create more community around that shared history as well to really.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Build strong allyship with the Jewish community. Actually understanding what
that means and actually understanding what the Jewish community is
going through and the fears they have. I think that
is where you have to start. So yeah, I just
I'm so glad to have had this conversation and I
(34:24):
know people will benefit from it, and I one hundred
percent no people will benefit from your book again, that
is to the ghosts who are still living. You can
buy it now through your publisher, which is Strangers in
a Tangled Wilderness. Nice, and I'll put all the links
(34:45):
in the description of the episodes on these website and
all the good stuff. But yeah, thank you again for
joining me today. I'm going to probably drag you back
at some point just to continue talking to you because
you've been lovely. Thank you. Yeah, I'm happy to be
back on Hell yeah I did a good job. If
you said that, I'm kidding. Do you have any kind
(35:05):
of social media you want people to follow you at
or just the book I do. Yes, let me look
at us. I don't get it wrong. I'm really bad
at social media. I'm trying to be better.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Okay, you can also follow me on Instagram Ammy wintrab three.
That's a M I W E, I N T R
A U B and the number three. And I'm, like
I said, like the work I'm doing, I hope is
like conversation starters, is like ways to build connections. So
(35:38):
also this was interesting to you, feel free to like
reach out and say hey and yeah, and my voice
is just like one of many on this topic. And
I hope that yeah, people continue to study and learn
and explore the nuances of of what I've shared today.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Thank you and a big reason why I wanted to
have these conversations and have them as conversations and stillso
illustrate that it's possible to talk about these these like
Zionism in particular, which is very taboo almost like weird
word to say out loud to a lot of people.
It's really helpful to talk about it casually and openly,
(36:15):
because that's how we're going to understand it. That's how
we're going to understand the anti Zionism and why Zionism
isn't great right now and all this other stuff. So
I hope that someone took that away and will continue
to have these conversations in their personal lives, because this
is just a fucking podcast, you know, but real life
(36:36):
is what matters. So yeah, that's all I have to say.
Thank you again, you are the best, and go buy
AMI's book To the Ghost Source to Living, Go buy
it now. It Could Happen Here as a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
(36:57):
visit our website cool zonemedia dot com or check us
out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could
Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.
Thanks for listening.
Hello everybody, and welcome back to it could happen here. Yes,
I still sound like this. It was the same day
for me, but thank you for joining me again. Today
is part two of a conversation I'm having with Amy
Wine Traub about Antizionism and why it's important. And today
I want to talk about their work and how much
(00:27):
of anti siism is actually based in ancestral healing. And yeah,
I want to just tell you guys a bunch of
good stuff because AMI's work I think is really important.
So welcome back, Hi, thanks for having me. Hello. Of course,
I think when we first started talking about wanting to
record together, you mentioned that talking about ancestral healing was
(00:50):
really integral and even your definition of anti Zionism, could
you kind of explain why?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Sure, Yeah, I feel like me mean, it's also the
other way around, like my coming into like anti Zionism
led me into a path of ancestral healing, because I
think something that we talked about, like in the last episode,
is that a lot of the motivation for at least
(01:18):
like the early origins of Zionism was the desire for
safety and the desire to like have cultural expression, like
Jewish cultural expression be possible, and so I started to think,
like why were those the desires of the time, and
sort of moving back into my family's history, which so
(01:43):
much of it has been like silenced because of like
the pain of the history, and also in some ways
because you've been told, you know, like you have a place,
you have the home you live in now, and you
have the state of Israel and you don't have to
think about where you came from before, know, And so
a lot of my work has been kind of like
(02:03):
opening up that conversation of like, but where where did
my great grandparents like actually come from? Like what was
that place? Why do they leave? What is the longing
that we have for safety long than we have for home,
And what does it look like to actually turn that
longing back to yeah, for my family like our homes
(02:23):
in Eastern Europe, And that's kind of where I've been
positioning a lot of my work these days.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, I think you bring up a good point about
how even having Israel there almost eRASS like the the
history of a lot of Jewish people, right, because it
kind of just like, yeah, it's almost as if like, oh,
this is where we all come from, and this is
where we all end up and it's just simply not true.
Can you tell me, well, first, could you define ancestral
(02:53):
healing to me? And like what that means to you?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I feel like for me and social healing has been
the process of opening up to the voices of my
ancestors and allowing them to really speak to me, and
starting to see that like the pain and the grief
and yeah, just the sorrow that I was carrying in
my own body wasn't just my own. Yeah, And that
(03:18):
sort of growing awareness has become like the avenue to
which I can do ancestral healing, which sometimes looks like
learning a ton about like a specific Jewish practice that
perhaps someone in my family at some point did and
we've now forgotten. Or sometimes it looks like researching on Wikipedia,
(03:45):
like the flowers that grew in my family's like Stuttle
in Eastern Europe. And sometimes it looks like just crying
and being sad about like the things that we've lost.
And sometimes it looks like talking to my ancestors, like
in meditation or trance states, and offering them back the
(04:11):
healing that I'm doing in this generation.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, I love that. I love especially the flowers I
think really got me. Just like those little details are
so important and really defined a place. I mean, I
think it's essentual healing is so important for like most
people in general. I think it's kind of taken maybe
(04:34):
not taken too seriously by some normies. I don't know,
but even for me, I mean, our histories are very different.
But I think what you've said about like recognizing that,
like your pain is not just your own, like you're
carrying a lot of a bird in generation from generation
to generation. And I think acknowledging that and learning more
(04:55):
about yourself anyone can do that you don't. It doesn't
have to be a certain I don't know. I think
that's what I always kind of want to get across that, Like,
even for me, I found ancestral healings to be really important.
I define it in a different way, but it's still
like I don't know a lot about my family's history,
so that's been a little bit like A huge origin
(05:17):
of that is because like there's a lot of confusion there.
But I love that you are taking as like an
internal journey and also like recognizing that there's a connection there.
I think people don't look at it as much as
I want them to. I guess I think it's a
little bit too petty for people, and it really isn't.
It's just about like evolving and knowing yourself better, like
(05:39):
when you really when it really comes down to it, totally.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, and for me too, like so like a lot
of in my book, I talk a lot about like
birch trees and the flowers that grow in this places
of my ancestors were in, like the lakes and the frogs,
and and a big reason for that too is because
like my ancestors aren't there anymore, Like there are no
(06:06):
more like Jewish people.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
In those places necessarily to like tell the story.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
So when I think about, like how do I really
learn about who my ancestors were or what their practices
and their culture was, It's like, oh, at least I
can see what they saw, you know. I can see
the trees, I can see the frogs, and the land
is holding that story for me if I can just
open up and listen to it. So that's also been
(06:34):
like part of it for me as well as like
opening up like opportunity for like connection and joy even
in the face of a lot of destruction. And again
also like you're saying, I really think this is something
that like most people can do and is really enriching
and would help us like all kind of metabolize like
(06:58):
so much of what has happened in the twentieth century.
Before the twentieth century, just like there's been so much
like disruption and violence like that's happened for so many people. Yeah,
and still happening obviously, and in America, in like the
dominant American culture, I think there's like a really big
emphasis on like forgetting and just kind of being in
(07:19):
this like present moment and not realizing that we've come
from somewhere.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And I just really resist that.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
That like urge to forget, and I for me, that's
also part of ancestral healing is like how do we
learn to remember?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Now.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I think the thing that really made me realize that
es cecral healing is extremely real and necessary was maybe
like a a how long ago, was maybe like ten
years ago. I learned something about a family member that
really put into context something that I was going through
and that I have always felt and just part with
(08:01):
who I am. And I'm being vague about it because
it's just personal. But we could talk off Mike if
you want, but for audience purposes. The point that I'm
trying to get across is I learned something, and I
learned more about myself, and I was almost more at
peace with how much I was struggling with what it was.
(08:22):
And I let myself be okay with how much I
was struggling and the pain I was carrying because I
recognized it wasn't just mine, it was it was hers.
So yeah, I think if you ask me what the
whole point of life is, it's self. Maybe not improvements
the right word, but like self discovery and like I
(08:42):
don't know nature and leaving a place better than you
found it. I think it's as simple as that. I
think it gets really convoluted with other things. But yeah,
as you said, I think anyone could benefit from learning
more because I agree. I think. Well you said about
(09:03):
forgetting really resonated with me.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
So yeah, really like that, and like America has built unforgetting,
like we're supposed to forget, like the genocide of indigenous
peoples on this land we're supposed to forget, like the
horrors of slavery. We're supposed to just forget, like even
what's happening right now in our country. So I think
the act of remembering is like has so much power
(09:29):
to shake like the current moment and to bring us
to a new place.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
It's ironic that like the biggest slogan of one of
America's most tragic events is don't forget when about Yeah, totally,
it's like, oh, this is the one thing you're gonna say, Yeah,
let's forget about everything else though, totally.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, And it's such like that's our memory. Like, And
in Germany they do have a lot about like memory culture.
That's like a really like specific term that they have
and like we don't even have that.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, we wouldn't even have that term here in the US. Wait,
can you explain that to me a little bit if
you if you know about it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So Germany does have like a big like culture around
like remembering the atrocities of the Holocaust, right, and they
call it like memory culture. So that's like monuments or
museums just like how is like World War two discussed?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
How is the Holocaust remembered? And yeah, like they remember
a lot more than we do, which is ironic and
also not in some ways.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
But yeah, we don't even have that concept here in
the same way of like memory culture, like what is
our cultural of remembering? And and I think obviously there
has been some amount of that around, like yeah, like
indigenous history and like Black history in relation to like
monuments and Thanksgiving and like all of those things, but
(11:04):
we don't have like really like memory culture like integrated
into like a day to day existence, and in fact
it's obviously being even fought against, like in Florida and
other places like that. Oh, I just love that that
idea of memory culture in general. I've never heard of
that love that so much. And I mean just even
(11:25):
thinking about it, just as we're talking Germany, has they
refuse to forget an atrocity that they did, right? I
think it's it's a little bit interesting that in America
they've forgotten about the atrocities they did and they want
to not forget about an atrocity that was done to them.
So it's almost like very victimy of America if you
(11:48):
ask me, because it's really easy not to forget when
someone wronged you, but I think it's really convenient to
forget when you, you know, destroy the entire civilization you
know what I mean to put it lightly exactly, and
I'm not trying to say to take nine to eleven
(12:11):
lightly at all.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I think what happened was atrocious and terrible. But when
you think about memory culture and what Germany is so
committed to remembering versus America, just a little interesting to
me now that I think about it, and who committed
who or who committed what? Rather. Yeah, before I get
rid to Rambley, let's take our first break and we'll
(12:32):
be right back, and we're back with Amy. Amy. When
we were talking about recording together, in addition to ancestral healing,
(12:52):
you talked about the importance of building a diasporus Jewish
community that has committed to solidarity with Palestinians and other
marginalized people, generally through an anarchist lens, and also building
a safe community for Jews outside of Israel to counter
the rhetoric that the only place that's safe for Jews
(13:13):
is Israel. And as you said, it generally leads to
a large focused on anti fascism and cultural reclamation. So
can you talk to me a little bit about that.
And then there's certain communities that you're a part of
that I really want to get into, but let's start there.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, so kind of in this journey, I would say
of saying, okay, like if we're going to be Jewish antiesionist,
so we're going to be Jewish anarchists.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Like what does that materially look like? Like how do we.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Put that into practice? And so yeah, I kind of
honed it on those two aspects again of safety and culture,
and so a lot of my work now is around
thinking about, like how do we create safety for Jews
in the place is where they are living in diaspora,
development into like growing to this like Jewish antigonism and
(14:07):
Jewish anarchism, trying to understand like what does it mean
to like actually put this into practice, and or when
I was thinking of that, I was trying to think of,
like how do we create safety for Jews in the
places where they want to live in diaspora and also
create the environment where Jewish culture is able to flourish.
(14:27):
And that's led me, like you said, to developing and
supporting and working with a lot of Jewish communities that
are like committed to like anti fascism, committed to solidarity
with other marginalized peoples, and also really committed to like
reclamation of Jewish traditions, specifically by like more marginalized people
(14:50):
within the Jewish community as well. And I really see
like those projects as like part of my like solidarity work,
even though it supporting like Jewish peoples in the day
to day, but ultimately it's creating a spaciousness where Jews
don't feel like they have to like cling on to
(15:11):
Zionism in the ways that they were before. And I'm
really curious also of like how to sort of make
that practice more visible to the general left, because I
do like a big part of like the book I'm writing,
(15:32):
like there's a whole section of me talking about what
it's like to have lived in Pittsburgh like before and
after the Tree of Life shooting, where I was a
teacher at the synagogue at the time that had happened.
So my life was like very impacted by this like
really like horrible like active violence, like antisemitic violence. And
(15:56):
the most shocking part was that like anti Semitism was
occurring before that happened, and it still continued after.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Like in Pittsburgh specifically, So like the question left me
with is like.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Are we actually addressing like the rise of anti Semitism
in America today, And that's why I want to like
really talk about this praxis of like addressing anti Semitism
and allowing in creating space where Jewish culture can flourish,
like as a practice that I'm curious for more people
(16:31):
on the left to understand as like vitally important like
for Jewish people and also for solidarity with Palestinians too.
So that's that's my topic that I'm very interested in
right now.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
No, I love that. I think it's so important what
you're saying and so necessary to build a community where
Jewish people feel safe that so yeah, exactly, they don't
have to go on to Zionism as a way to
feel accepted or safe or belonged or have belonging anywhere.
And in that way, it's it's really simple to see
(17:10):
how that is intertwined with solidarity of the Palestinians, because
it ultimately is saying like Israel is all the end,
all be all, Like we're at the end of the day,
people going through shit have we have our cultures and
we have to stick by each other. Maybe that's a
little bit elementary, but I think what I'm trying to say,
(17:31):
is I really appreciate that you have built this community
and are so committed to continuing to enrich it and
develop it, because I think that's so essential, especially just
considering like the idea of Zionism in the first place,
Like that really pure intention that was there. I think
(17:55):
it's okay to still live on in certain areas because
it was pure. It was about Israel at all, Israel
as it is today rather Yeah, so can you tell
me about this organization Rage? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So, Rage is this small collective called that CRADEM stands
for Rebellious Anarchists Young Jews. In the most basic sense,
we formed this as like a sort of response to
like the Zionism that we were experiencing around us, and
a lot of it, like the word rage being like
(18:30):
anger of like wow, I can't believe, like this is
what's being sold to us as like our liberation. And
what it formed into was like after the Tree of
Life shooting my sibling pretty much text memes like let's
make this thing happen again, and we started to create
like more like political like Jewish anarchist like art and
(18:52):
writing and putting it out on Facebook, and people started
responding to it and it really felt like a piece
of like the rising of like a Jewish anarchist movement
in this country right now, a piece of many, but
something that kind of was like a light or like
(19:15):
what's the phrase, like like a bat signal is the
only way I can put it of. Like, hey, like
all of you out there who are thinking about like
what Jewish anarchism might mean, are thinking about like what
like organizing could look like when it's based on our
culture and our practices and has like deep reverence for
(19:37):
that instead of like an embarrassment around our practices. All
of you who are like creative and artistic and that's
your mode of engagement, of engaging like we can come
together and we can like create something new, and that
has just like that desire has just grown since then
and it's being reflected and so much organizing right now.
(20:00):
Enrage itself is like not we're not really doing as
much as a collective anymore, but definitely that spirit is
like living on in a lot of like in the
book I'm writing, and like the work that my sibling's doing,
and in a lot of like the artistic creation that's
happening around Jewish anarchism.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I love that. That's so cool. I'm really grateful that
out of something so horrific that you went through, you
were able to come together with your sibling and almost
use that as fuel to really come together. I think
it's really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, And I think that's like that felt like the
challenge in that moment was like, are we gonna use
this as a moment to like support the police who
you know, killed the shooter. We're going to use us
a moment to like buddy up with the politicians who
are trying to like befriend the Jewish community now all
(20:55):
of a sudden, Or are we going to use as
a moment, like a big phrase that was thrown around
in Pittsburgh was like safety and solidarity, or we're going
to use as a moment to really affirm that message
and to really like speak to the danger that we
are feeling as Jews in this country and the resilience
that we have and the resistance and the revolutionary power
we have to like sort of call out the systems
(21:22):
that are creating that. And I'm really grateful, yeah, that
my sibling and others around me were able to like
create that path through a more revolutionary mode.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, Oh, it's important. Especially, Yeah, you don't want to
see your community use as a tool for politics. I
think having that be a product of such a tragedy
is shameful, and so fighting against that, I think is
really necessary to maintain a sense of like reality, to
(21:54):
be honest, like and not get caught up in like
whatever reality I don't know, politicians or the media or
whatever the shit wants you to believe in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, So a few years after rage kind of continued
to grow, I was able to found this community center
called ret Zone Center for Healing and Resistance in Pittsburgh.
And it's a queer Jewish anarchist community center, the only
(22:26):
one believe it or not in the US.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Maybe it's the world, but also sad, you know what
I mean, Like I love it, I also have disappointed it.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yes, And it was like obviously a lot of community support,
like like i'd say, like I founded it, but it
was more like I had the ability to like kind
of pulled people together, pull together a space, get grant money,
like do that type of work. And the idea is
really like when we are like in political struggle, we
(23:04):
need to resist, but we also need to heal. And
I think I was just also feeling like a lot
And this was like in twenty nineteen ish, So the
like integration of like healing and more like therapeutic techniques
I felt like into like political frameworks like wasn't happening
(23:25):
as much at the time as I think it is
now even and just really claiming like we can't do
political work without like our like healing work, and again
like that creating a space where we could engage in
like anti fascists organizing, we could engage in solidarity with
other like marginalized people, and we could also really honor
(23:46):
Jewish tradition and let that be like a foundation for us.
And yeah, I ended up leaving the community this time
last year to like pursue other things, but it still
is existing in Pittsburgh. Are gonna still like very much
like a a hub for not just Jewish people too,
(24:07):
but like a lot of people who are engaging in
you and resistance work.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, it's just I love that it exists. And also
just I was thinking, actually I'm gonna hold that thought
and I want to take our second break. Are you
gonna have to cut back and see what I was
gonna say? So enjoy these ads, Okay, we're back. I
(24:40):
had a coffee bit and now I'm back. I was
going to say that I love that all those things
can be true at the same time, like Jewish solidarity
and Palestinian solidarity, and remembering and practicing like traditional rituals
and culture and traditions and practices and all this stuff.
I think it's nice to remember that all of those
(25:01):
can be true at the same time, because I think,
especially now, people identify anti Zionism with anti Semitism, and
I think it's really important to see a community of
Jewish people like embracing their religion and culture and loving
it and at the same time supporting Palestine, because it's
just the clearest example of how Zionism is not a
(25:24):
factor and your love of your culture and your religion.
I think it's a really good example of just I
don't know, demonstrating how much of a falsity that is
in the first place, to equate those two together when
really Zionism itself is anti Semitic, as we mentioned in
the last episode. I also want to give us plenty
(25:47):
of time to talk about your work, and as much
as you want to tell us about your new book
to the ghosts who are Still Living. It's out and
now everybody go get it. It's a book of essays
and yeah, can you if you want to tell me
how you came about even starting to write these essays
(26:08):
and like what motivated you to embark on this journey.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yes, So I just came out today with this book
to the Ghost Tour Still Living, and it's my first
book that I've written, and it's pretty much a collection
of essays that is broken up into three sections. The
first section is like stories of my ancestors in Eastern
Europe and their lives and them coming to America and
(26:34):
like that process. The second section is my stories of
living in Pittsburgh during the rise of antiseptism. And the
third section is returning back to my ancestors Shuttle, which
the village in Lithuania last summer with my sister and
kind of yeah, grappling with these questions of.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Like do I belong here? Like what is this land?
Where am I? Like where do I Where can I
be in the world?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
So I guess like the clearest moment of when I
felt like I needed to write this was during the
summer of twenty twenty and there was an incident that
I write about in the book of Nazis coming to
like the anarchist bookstore in Pittsburgh, which was like a
few blocks from my house at the time, and they
(27:23):
were I don't even remember like exactly what their posters said,
but they were handing out these like anti anarchists posters
that like probably had something anti Semitic on them also
or just like that vibe was there and they were
just flying, and the cops came up and shook hands
(27:44):
with these Nazis and let them stay.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Wow and but sail out exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And then the Nazis actually ended up pulling a gun
on some of the anti fascist protesters who were there
and didn't actually end up like shooting anyone, but.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
That was the scene of what had happened. But still
the fact that that he whoever that was able to
do that in the cops were like Anyboddy, yeah exactly,
just to make it more clear how shit the cops are.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Totally and so yeah, I just witnessed that all happen,
and it just kind of felt like the last the
last straw, I guess, the last thing, and I just
felt like kind of ripped open inside realizing that the
(28:36):
anti Semitism that I had been researching, like in my
own family's.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
History was like happening right now, like to me in
this moment, and I just.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Had this feeling that like I was like, I don't
know if people on the left or people in general
are like really seeing what's happening, you know, really like
understanding like the fear that I have, like as a
Jewish person right now, And I'm not sure if people
are like understanding that connection to like the contemporary fascism
(29:08):
that's happening in the US, to the fascism that my
ancestors experienced.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
And it made me really sad, and it made.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Me like really feel so much pain because I just
didn't want my family stories to be like forgotten or
not to be remembered in this moment when I think
we're trying to understand what's happening in this country, and
like my family has already gone through a lot of
what's happened, you know. Yeah, yeah, and we're being attacked
(29:36):
now in that way.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I mean, as far as our history books go, an
dis Semitism ended when all of as ended, right exactly
so in the US like saved the day. Yeah, and
now exactly. I think that's literally the narrative that a
lot of people believe in this in this country, which
is so unfortunate because it just, yeah, it's so what
incidents like this happen. It's not just like out of
(30:01):
the blue. It's because there's this lingering hatred and fascism
that's been there and just growing and evolving and going undetected.
Even though it's so obvious, it's just become I don't know,
maybe I was gonna say more subtle, but at this
point it's subtle at all. They're very outright about it,
(30:21):
but I think it's like almost become like normalized, just
exactly exactly. But no, I thank you for sharing that, uh,
And I mean I can imagine that potentially this book
was like maybe healthy process or like heal a little
bit yourself that that happened definitely.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, Like at a certain point I was writing these
essays and I was like, I don't even need to
do anything with this, Like this has been like the
most healing project that I've already done, and so like, also,
my hope with this book is that the healing that
it's offered me it can offer to others and I've
kind of been thinking of it as like in Jewish myth,
(31:06):
there's like this idea of like a golam or a
gollum that's like this monster created from the Mud with
like the word emmet written on its forehead, which means truth,
and this monster is like raised from the Mud to
protect the Jewish community of Prague against anti Semitism. WHOA, yeah,
(31:28):
it's a really cool story.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So I've kind of been like, oh, I wonder if,
like this book can I kind of be like a gollum,
you know, like this kind of anti fascists monster, mud
creature made from words that can like offer healing and
maybe offer some like protection in this moment. So that's
(31:54):
that's my greatest hope for this book right now.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That's first of all about being my monster. I love that,
Love that for you, and love that for me, love
it for everybody. It's second, I think that's a beautiful
intent and I think it one hundred percent will help
others heal, And even if the person reading it is
(32:18):
not Jewish, I think it's important to remember and to
realize that you still have very real fear being a
Jewish person living in America or anywhere else, you know,
because anti Semitism didn't get solved when Hitler shot himself.
If I'm sorry, guys, And so I think this book
(32:38):
can help a lot of people, and I really encourage
everyone to go buy it now. We're recording today on
August first, and today is when it was released, so
by the time you hear it, it'll be out and
ready to be read. I just highly encourage you to
really dive into Omni's work because it's just so important
and so healing for everybody. Thank you, of course, I
(33:03):
really appreciate you taking the time to open yourself up,
and because I know a lot of these things have
really painful origins, and so I appreciate that you're willing
to talk about them. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah. And I also hope that like, yeah, like this
book also can sort of be like a window for
like leftists who want to like integrate more like Jewish
history into their anti fascism, that it can be like
a window for that, And I do hope like also
that it can like also build bridges with like other
(33:37):
peoples who have experienced genocide, experience displacement from lands, experienced
like experience ongoing like fear for their safety where they
are in the world. And I hope it also like
sharing like my family stories that like those bridges can
start to like be built and we can start to
(33:59):
create more community around that shared history as well to really.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Build strong allyship with the Jewish community. Actually understanding what
that means and actually understanding what the Jewish community is
going through and the fears they have. I think that
is where you have to start. So yeah, I just
I'm so glad to have had this conversation and I
(34:24):
know people will benefit from it, and I one hundred
percent no people will benefit from your book again, that
is to the ghosts who are still living. You can
buy it now through your publisher, which is Strangers in
a Tangled Wilderness. Nice, and I'll put all the links
(34:45):
in the description of the episodes on these website and
all the good stuff. But yeah, thank you again for
joining me today. I'm going to probably drag you back
at some point just to continue talking to you because
you've been lovely. Thank you. Yeah, I'm happy to be
back on Hell yeah I did a good job. If
you said that, I'm kidding. Do you have any kind
(35:05):
of social media you want people to follow you at
or just the book I do. Yes, let me look
at us. I don't get it wrong. I'm really bad
at social media. I'm trying to be better.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Okay, you can also follow me on Instagram Ammy wintrab three.
That's a M I W E, I N T R
A U B and the number three. And I'm, like
I said, like the work I'm doing, I hope is
like conversation starters, is like ways to build connections. So
(35:38):
also this was interesting to you, feel free to like
reach out and say hey and yeah, and my voice
is just like one of many on this topic. And
I hope that yeah, people continue to study and learn
and explore the nuances of of what I've shared today.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Thank you and a big reason why I wanted to
have these conversations and have them as conversations and stillso
illustrate that it's possible to talk about these these like
Zionism in particular, which is very taboo almost like weird
word to say out loud to a lot of people.
It's really helpful to talk about it casually and openly,
(36:15):
because that's how we're going to understand it. That's how
we're going to understand the anti Zionism and why Zionism
isn't great right now and all this other stuff. So
I hope that someone took that away and will continue
to have these conversations in their personal lives, because this
is just a fucking podcast, you know, but real life
(36:36):
is what matters. So yeah, that's all I have to say.
Thank you again, you are the best, and go buy
AMI's book To the Ghost Source to Living, Go buy
it now. It Could Happen Here as a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
(36:57):
visit our website cool zonemedia dot com or check us
out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could
Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.
Thanks for listening.
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Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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