Asheville's Crackdown on Mutual Aid Part 2

Mia and James talk to Muneeba Talukder if the aclu about the Asheville crackdown on mutual aid.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi everyone, it's James again. I just wanted to remind
you that this is part two of a two part
and if you haven't listened to yesterday's podcast, today's might
not make a lot of sense, so I would suggest
starting there. Obviously, you have your own life, do what
you want, but you're going to understand today's a lot
more if you start with yesterday's. Today was speaking to
Menieba with the ACLU about the legal response to some
of the bizarre things City of Ashville has been doing.

(00:28):
If you hear reference to Pip in this episode, that's
because Pip is another of the activists. They weren't able
to make our call, but we're going to be speaking
to them as well in our ongoing coverage of this.
So I hope you enjoy today's episode know that we'll
keep you updated as this moves forward. All right, So
our first guest today is Niba and Minie. But would
you like to introduce yourself explain your relationship to what

(00:49):
we're talking about today. Yeah? Sure, So. My name is
Beniba Hollister. I'm a stop attorney with the ACLU nrth
Charle I know, and I represent some of these wonderful
folks that you'll be talking to act for me, and UM,
it's unfortunate that we met this way, UM, but you know,

(01:13):
I'm happy to be working with them. So basically I
can go into it or do you want to ask
me questions about it? Or I think it'd be great
if you could start off by sort of walking us
through how mutual Aid seems to have met with this
bizarre prosecution. Yeah, of course. UM. So we got connected to, um,

(01:38):
you know, our now clients that this group of individuals
whom you know have been doing important advocacy and mutual
aid work on the house of on house folks, um
in ethel and um, we were connected by this other
organization called Center for Constitutional Rights and kind of fill

(02:00):
in quickly about, um, how this group of people were
not only banned from perks, but these bands were based
on this absurd criminal charge called felony littering, um, which

(02:21):
you know it sounds as crazy as it is. UM.
So so yeah, you know I think, UM, my colleagues
and I at the ECLU we were eager to talk
to these folks and learn more about what happened and

(02:43):
and see what we can do and um uh and
you know, start talking about some of the legal issues
that um, that arise from when a city tries to
ban a large group of people from from one of
the few places that they have to convene and to

(03:06):
protest um and demonstrate, which you know, one of the
first things I learned in law school is like how
or like one of the first things I think I
learned as someone living in the US, like you, you
always hear kids say, oh, I have free speech, Like

(03:26):
you know, free speech, So it's such a central part
of being in this or like growing up in this
country and being a citizen or a member of this country.
Is just the way that is thrown around, sometimes inaccurately,
but people generally know that that speech should be protected

(03:52):
and cannot be restricted except in very narrow ways by
the government, not by like you know, your mom, you
don't have um free speech in front of your mom.
Like that's not that I learned that quick. Um. Yeah,
when I took my being an American test, I took

(04:14):
like I became assist in a couple of months ago.
And there's like only like fifty questions they can ask you,
and I think two of them are like what it's
free speech? Like like, yeah, yeah, can you claim free
speech when you get banned from Twitter dot com? Like yeah,
it's something, Yeah, that's yeah. And I think, UM, I

(04:35):
think you know, it's UM it's absurd to criminalize protest,
of course, UM, but it's it's also like equally as
troubling to take away this this important public space from

(04:55):
people that UM, you know, especially in a city like Ashville,
like you've been there, it's one of the few public
spaces that people can convene and UM get together and
enjoy each other's company. UM. You know that that being
separate from also one of the few places that you

(05:15):
can protest and and UM engage and discussion about how
to fix problems. So it's really troubling UM that the
city of Bashville has had taken that route. And when
the ACIL you got involved, we thought it would be
best to list out some of these legal issues. UM.

(05:39):
You know, I mentioned the First Amendment UM and free speech,
but there are also a lot of procedural due process
problems that UM or issues that come up when you
then folks from a park. UM. One of you know,

(05:59):
one of the things that the city doesn't do is
provide proper notice so a few of our clients never
received notice that they were banned from the park, and
you know, found out that they were banned either through
the discovery process in their criminal cases or by doing

(06:19):
like very intense investigation of their own which you know,
that is not a that's just not okay, Like a
city needs to you need to at this is like
a very basic thing, right, notice and hearing. Those are
the tenets of procedural due process. And the city fails there.

(06:45):
The city then sails again at providing hearing and providing
opportunity to appeal these bands, Like there is no pre
deprivation hearing. First of all, like bands, once our clients
received them, they're banned. They're banned from the parks and
cannot go and don't have didn't have any opportunity to

(07:10):
defend um why they shouldn't be banned or be heard
about why they shouldn't be banned before that band happened,
which is you know, it's it's not okay. I think
a pre deprivation hearing is really important when you're taking
away an interest, like like the First Amendment interests that

(07:32):
I laid out, and and then the hearing that was
provided was problematic in a lot of ways. For one,
these were very short cursory hearings um that lasted from
I want to say, like five to thirty minutes, but
I'll let Sarah and Tip confirm. And they they had

(07:58):
people from actional police department who are you know, arguably
also involved in the criminal cases that that several of
our clients are still sattling through. They were not allowed
to ask questions, and you know, several of our clients

(08:19):
do not have the resources to have proper legal representations,
so it's sometimes their clients were there alone and had
to fend for themselves and navigate that tricky area of
not saying something that could hurt you in your criminal case.

(08:39):
And you know, the hearing was just a mess in
all of the ways. How does the city like legally
justify banning someone from parks? I guess they're like a
way which they can do that. So they have this
policy called the Restricted Access to City Parks Expulse policy,

(09:01):
and it is I think we should call it the
park band policy. It basically allows the city to to
band folks from parks based on certain violations of I
think the categories are city park rules, city parks and

(09:22):
Recreation Department program rules, city ordinances, state laws, and federal laws.
So what's interesting is there is no there's nowhere in
the policy that says when a person has committed or

(09:43):
that defines what a violation of any of these rules
are like. Is that a conviction? Is that a formal
like citation there? The policy does not provide that. So
this is important, I think, especially here where our clients,
none of them, or actually I shouldn't say none of them.

(10:06):
Three three of our clients have pled to lesser misdemeanor charges,
but everyone else has an open case and they have
not been formally convicted of anything. And so it's it's
strange that, you know, you can ban someone based off

(10:29):
of the stele any charge that hasn't even been fully litigated. Yeah,
have they banned there like a record of the city
banning people from parks? Or have they just like dug
this one up from the bowels of legislation to ban
these people. Oh that's a really interesting question, and I'd

(10:53):
love to know the answer myself. We did submit a
public records request to try to figure out if I
have UM, but I imagine the city is not going
to want to tell us, and I think Sarah, you
can speak to this later. But I don't think they
have they I think they've rejected PRRs that you all

(11:16):
have done and have not provided that um elusive restricted
access list which they have of like folks that they've
spanned from the Perks and and maybe that list is
just you know, our clients, which yeah, I mean, maybe
they have. I don't know what's worse, like if they

(11:37):
have a Parks black list and they're just not notifying
people until like they send a swat team after them,
or if it's if it's only people who are helping
unhouse people and they just don't want to admit that.
Both those are pretty dark the topic of weird legal things,

(12:02):
What on earth is felony littering? I'd love to know.
I'd love to know what felony littering is, because, um,
I'll tell you this. When I told my partner, like,
I was like, oh, did you know there's something called
felony littering? And he's like, I hope that's when corporations
get punished for, you know, dumping toxic waste into the sea.

(12:25):
But no, it's apparently when community members come together for
a demonstration and the city is mad about what's left behind, which, um,
you know, that's uh. I think it's really telling that

(12:46):
the city has chosen to to prosecute folks on this
like felony littering charge, which you know hasn't in the
past ten years, there's only been one felony littering case
out of Buncombe County where Ashville is. Okay, So I

(13:10):
think that's really telling, and I think it's it's really
troubling that's the city of Ashville seems to be really
taking out a position in silencing speech. It does not
like yeah, there's yeah, go ahead, No, they just seem
to be taking like the most bizarre and ran around
the first Amendment that they can. Yeah, it might be

(13:33):
a lot of a lot of like the Occupy era
stuff where like all of these cities suddenly realized that
like wait, hold on, these people can actually use a
park for political activity, and then immediately like suddenly that
all these like organises started appearing where like everyone has
to like clear out of the park by ten pms,
leaking clean it or something that eventually were just like

(13:54):
was used to force people out. And I don't know,
it seems like There's something interesting too about like it
seems like it's it's almost when whenever like a city
government tries you something, it seems like they always like
immediately reach for sanitation ordinances. Like yeah, I would saying
like that was that was like the big occupy thing,
like they're doing this here too. It is it's I
don't know. I think all around the country we're seeing

(14:17):
the government fish out these weird ordinances and make new
laws to to criminalize poverty and um and to criminalize
unhoused people existing. And I think that trend, unfortunately carries
even in places like Ashville, UM that are seeing especially

(14:43):
after COVID, you know, there's been a rising and house
population everywhere, and so it's it's really upsetting, but it
is the truth that these these ordinances and laws that
are being fished out are being fished out to targets

(15:03):
folks and um and new laws that lawmakers are creating.
Now I was thinking about this, I remembering there there's
a whole sort of anthropological literature about like how colonial
states US used like sanitation ordinances as a way to
sort of destroy like indigenous public spaces and the places
they colonize. And I guess like, yeah, I don't know,

(15:25):
Like there's there's a lot of sort of throughput I
guess between like the sort of old like colonial government's
regimes and the way that people still use sanitation is
like the default way to sort of cleanse people out
of public spaces. I think it's interesting how, like um

(15:47):
an analogy one can make maybe visit there are people
with rights and people without rights, even when in theory
we all have rights, and like this attempt to sort
of use sanitation to be like all of these people's
rights don't matter what. They don't have those rights at all. Yeah,
it's not not linked to the way the metropolital colonies.

(16:09):
I think also just you know, going back to this
position that the City of Nashville is taking, UM, what's
really troubling is like the different angles that they're coming
at this issue with. Like if you look at you know,

(16:30):
if you look at some of the press releases and
wild posts on the city's website about the house population,
you might get a sense that they're trying to find
solutions to address what they seem to acknowledge as a
big problem. But then you know, on the flip side,
you see these actions that directly contradict that sentiment, and

(16:54):
you know these part funds. That's that's one of the
ways that UM, the city of that kind of indirectly
is like no, please, like, let us do our thing.
We don't want to hear anything bad about what we're doing,
Like we're trying our hardest. You know, that's rich on
its own, but you know, there's so there's a felony

(17:17):
littering charges, there's the park that and then you know,
alongside all of this, like a few weeks ago, we
followed the petition in Bunkham Truntium Superior Court petitioning for
the release of police body camera footage of the arrest
of two journalists, for the release of the footage that

(17:40):
UM that shows the arrests of these journalists covering covering
the eviction of encampments of unhoused folks in Aston Park
on Christmas night in twenty twenty one. So around the
same time that several of our clients, UM, you know

(18:02):
are being hit with these felony charges and then shortly
after with park bands and UM the rest of journalists
in a democracy is very or should be very rare
and should be troubling, and these journalists, like just to
give you some context. Um, we're not shy about their
critique of the city and how it's handling done housed

(18:25):
community and um, that critique is protected by the First Amendment.
But the city of Asheville, I think is just you know,
doing its own thing when it's allowing arrests of journalists
and and um, the release of that body camera footage
we think is important to just show what happened because

(18:51):
that's that's that's kind of strange, like just in the
same way that felony littering is strange. Yeah, it does
seem like there is there is kind of a yeah
bypasses and commitment to not wanting journalists to meddle with
you harassing the house people. It seems to be like
very much a Democrat thing is one of the Republican thing.

(19:12):
What did were those journalists charged anything or were they
dis arrested? They were also charged with um, I want
to say, second degree trust pass um, and they've been
pretty vocal about UM their arrests and and UM, and

(19:34):
I think what's been happening. Like their names are uh,
Veronica Quite and Matilda Blists. Um. I'm not sure Sarah
if you want to add more to that, but UM,
I think that's that's like another thread that's important to
this story is like all of the different ways that

(19:56):
Ashville is operating to silence folks and and to continue
doing what they're doing, which you know, in a like
if you look at UM just their own narrative where
they talk about, oh, yes, we've you know, evicted these
folks as a success story, and you know, like they'll

(20:20):
they'll maybe list like all of the hotels, like free
hotel nights that UM these folks got for one or
two nights. But that's obviously not a sustainable solution to
um to you know, the plight of that community. Yeah, certainly. Yeah.

(20:41):
I think sometimes things get done because things look good
on a press release around them because it gives anyone
like longto Maxis to housing. So I wonder, what's the situation.
Several of your clients are now facing felony charges? Are serious? Right?
If people maybe on in the US or don't realize,
maybe you could explain, like a felony follows around for
the rest of your life, right, Yeah, And and just

(21:05):
to be clear, where the AFLU is not defending them
on the criminal charges. UM, I think all of our
clients have separate representation for their criminal charges. We've taken
on the charge of um addressing these parts bands and
how we think they're constitutional. So I'm sure, like I can,

(21:30):
I can speak a little to this, but yeah, I think, um,
you know, maybe getting getting one of the criminal defense
attorneys to talk if they can about the criminal case
might be more helpful for sure. Yeah. Maybe can you
explain this in general terms what a felony would mean
for someone living in North Carolina, in terms of just

(21:53):
how would affect their life going forward. Yeah, so there's
there's a lot I think, you know, um right, I'm
not a criminal lawyer, but let me just think of
a few things. Uh, you know, having the felony on

(22:14):
your criminal record just on its own, nobody nobody wants
a criminal record in a country and state that is
still looking and you know, allowing background checks for certain
jobs and having to explain that in any context like

(22:36):
I will just you know, you know, let me just
talk from my own experience where I've whenever I am
getting admitted to a bar, I've moved a couple of
times in the past few years and had to deal
with the unfortunate process of being admitted into that state's bar.
There's several intrusive questions and many of those involved like

(23:01):
what kind of what your background is, and that means
what your criminal background is, Like we have to do um,
Like I have gone through the moral character fitness tests
for three stage now and UM it's never fun. It's
you know, as someone who is privileged and does not

(23:23):
have a criminal history background, it's not fun for me
because I like the number of questions they ask you.
It's like you really, like you know, have to dig
back into the past, like your whole life, Like they
ask all of the addresses that you've lived at in

(23:44):
the past fifteen years, and if you get it wrong,
you're lying. So you're okay, I'm going out unattention. But
the point is, like any any sort of certification or
job or um new opportunity that is that is something
a criminal record is something that's looked at and considered

(24:04):
and oftentimes in in a negative way and can result
in people not getting jobs. Um, it's I think Sarah
and like other Saharan Tips maybe can explain more about
like what the consequences would be like if you've had
conversation with your attorneys. But I also have some background

(24:28):
in immigrants race work, and I know that if any
any kind of criminal charges slash convictions that you're facing
can be used by UM, can be used by ICE,
can be used by USBIS to deny you immigration privileges
and and UM and to deport you, to detain you

(24:50):
before they deport you, and UM. So you know, beyond that,
like having to have this hang over your head where
the process is not short, it's not easy, is mentally
taxing and UM, it's honestly degrading to go through our

(25:15):
criminal legal system, and it's decorating for everyone UM and
and I mean that's that's all I can say of
like someone UM who does like general civil rights work.
But if you talk to someone who's doing criminal defense
work and in this all the time, I'm sure they're

(25:37):
they're you know, can paint a better picture of how
dark that that processes and how dark it can be
to have that on UM a record. I think another

(25:58):
thing that this is Okay, I'm not a lawyer. I'm
also not like your lawyer. Lead to legal advice, etcetera, etcetera, UM,
but I'm pretty sure the way it work in North
Carolina is that if you if you have a felony conviction,
you can't vote until you serve out the time Jesus
So yeah, like in country. Yeah, yeah, so that's that's

(26:22):
another thing. And I'm fairly muted in North Carolina. I
moved here in March, so almost a year, but not
quite so. But I do know that the hoops that
you have to jump through just to vote are a
lot more than other states that I've lived in. And um,
you know, of course that is um that is also

(26:44):
another thing done on purpose to silence certain voices. Yeah,
that's dark and certainly like you'll lose your second Amendment right,
so it be jobs you can't do, that will be
things that you have access to, like yeah, your rights
will go away potential forever, which is bad when you're
just trying to help some people who need to melt.

(27:05):
It's pretty unconstable. Yeah, I think that's the other, like
really wild thing about all of this is like a
lot the folks that are you know, being banned on,
being targeted on this way are providing really important services
in in a way that the city haven't been able

(27:25):
to and hasn't and it's filling in this this really
important role of like making sure that folks stay alive
and have support and are fed and clothes, And it's
unfortunate to have that taken a way like being banned

(27:48):
from a park means being banned from one of the
few spaces that our clients had to do this work
and where they were able to distribute food and other
aid to folks who don't have a home. And it's
just it's wild that that kind of action is being

(28:08):
taken when when we know that this is a crisis
that the city is just not addressing. Yeah, they're like
taking action against people pointing to the crisis rather than
the crisis itself, which is yeah, very sad. So what
what stage is you are? I know you have to
go in a second here, what stage is your lucky

(28:30):
said seou with challenging the park ban. How has that?
How's that gone for you? So so far? We've spent
a demand letter to the city. The city have responded
to that letter with UM right now kind of wishywashie
commitments of like reviewing the policy and UM. While while

(28:50):
I think that's a great first step, I do think
the city needs to commit to doing more and um
to commit to retracting the for all of our clients
and potentially others who have been affected by this policy.
They also need to change the policy, like reviewing the policy.

(29:12):
That's a great first step that you know, I want
to see, like what are the things that they are
building in to make sure that folks are getting proper
notice that this policy isn't being abused and used by
actual police department others in an unfair way, and that
there's like you know, basic standards of like when the

(29:36):
policy can be instituted, like is there a conviction involved
and what are the convictions? Like doesn't make sense to
then someone from a park for I don't know, like
I'm trying to think of like something fellingy literate. Yeah,

(30:01):
it's just so bizarre. It's clown stuff. It is bizarre.
And I think, like, you know, historically park bands from
what I know is like they've been used against like
people who have committed like sexual offenses and um, and
so it's kind of it's kind of out of lust

(30:24):
field to and and I'll just say this, that's a
city like indo response. They cited to one of the
cases that are two cases unfolved sexual offenders who are
bound from parks, which you know, yeah, peaceful demonstrators who

(30:45):
provided aids to folks who are unhoused. So you know,
it's it's not really there. The comparison is not there,
And I think I hope the city can be honest
and UM if they are not willing to put in
network and to take some of UM do the actions

(31:06):
that I've laid out. I do think that we will
continue to challenge these park bands and UM you know,
we'll continue to prepare to file suit if that's necessary.
Great And how can people follow along with that or
if they want to sort of donate or support it,
is there a place they can do that? UM? You know,
our website UM is a great space to our website.

(31:31):
I think our socials like Twitter, UM and Instagram, like
our comms team is amazing and they update on our
work frequently and often and UM and we try to
we try to provide updates there, but also UM kind
of engage with our work and what it means broadly

(31:53):
for UM books across North Carolina and across the US. Yeah, right,
and that's just a CLU North Carolina. Those would be
the socials I should know that. That's fine. Um So
it's AHLU of North Carolina dot org and if you

(32:15):
go to our website you'll find our socials. But it's
probably a very much thought. Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you
so much for giving us some of your time. Thanks
so much for having me. Yeah, that's great, Thank you.
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