Border Kindness and Mutual Aid Along the Border

James is joined by Jacqueline Arellano and James Cordero from Border Kindness to discuss mutual aid along the border and the impact of policy changes and world events on people making the journey to the USA.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi everyone. It's just me James today and I'm joined
today by James Cordero and Jacqueline Ariano. They're both from
Border Kindness, which is a group that does border eight.
Do you feel like water drops and support to keep
people alive as they're making their journey across the desert
here in San Diego? Is that a fair characterization of

(00:27):
what you guys do?

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah, we do work all across the border in California.
Currently the of US, we're based out of San Diego.
What we do of our water drops in eastern San
Diego County and Imperial County. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yeah. The wization is based primarily in Mihigli, Baja, California,
on the Mexico side, and that's where it was founded. Okay,
corresponds to the arrival of the migrant caravans in twenty eighteen.
We've personally been doing drops since twenty sixteen, but we
brought the program over Border Kindness a little over a
year ago and we operate programs on both sides of
the border. Primarily James and I are involved with water Drop,

(01:07):
but we also as an organization have a school on
the Mexico side. We have operated in a pro bono
clinic on the Mexican side, and currently we're providing direct
aid with the families of migrant farm workers in Imperial
and Riverside Counties.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Nice. Yeah, that's a lot of very important things that
you don't get enough money or attention. So sure, you
said you started about a year ago, but you've been
doing the border drops for what's that seven sometime seven years? Yeah,
since twenty sixteen, And I wonder if we could start
by and we can get in some of the details later.

(01:47):
But I've been reporting on the border for that long
and there certainly have been notable changes, And I wonder
what changes you've seen, Like we go back to like
pre twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, like that was for the
whole wall Shenanigans and so like, do you guys want
to describe what changes you've seen in patterns of migration

(02:08):
and like I guess how safe that journey is or isn't,
and how that's changed.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well as far as patterns, I think it's definitely increased,
definitely impressed by the as far as seeing the amounts
of supplies being used, the traces of you know, migrants
crossing through in the desert, and the mountains, seeing the

(02:40):
amount of border patrol apprehensions and interactions with people that cross,
and the overall militarization of the border. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, And I think like as far, one of the
biggest changes that we've seen on the border overall, and
that has reflected in the water Drop as well, is
a change in the demographics of people that are coming through.
Even as recently as when we started in twenty sixteen,
there were much more of like the trend that was

(03:14):
generally kind of like stereotypically the case of like who
was crossing, which was men of origin of working age
crossing to work and send send money back to their families.
That's obviously still a large part of who is coming through,
but in the most recent three to five years especially,

(03:37):
the demographics are changing not just by country of origin
to include all over the world and reflecting like this
global migration crisis that's going on, but also the reasons
and like the desperation is changing. So now it's not
just like economic migration. There is asylum seekers, refugees, and
it is just changing in tone of like why they're

(04:00):
migrating and in what ways they're migrating.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, yeah, definitely I've noticed that, and like as the
climate continues to change, right, like more and more people
come from those countries and you've seen that too, that
most heavily impacted by climate change. Yeah, yeah, and that
makes a journey as it gets harder and harder in
the desert, like that makes a journey more and more perilous.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
I guess they've come from farther too, and they're at
least sometimes like not at all familiar with the weather,
with the terrain, what they're up against with like how
you have to move in border towns. If you're not
from a border town, you don't really know how to
move and who to trust or more importantly, who not
to trust.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yes, yeah, and the people there's.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
A lot of pitfalls to just arriving at the border,
even from like internal migration, like within Mexico. People arrive
to the border and don't really know how to operate
like the day to day there, and it's really made
an already incredibly dangerous situation, like just just totally a peral.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
As more people have migrated from different countries around the world,
you're also seeing people who have been on that journey
just to get to the United States line for longer
amounts of time that you know, instead of maybe just
weeks or a month, you're talking about months on months
that people have been traveling you know, by foot, by train,

(05:21):
by bus, you know, sometimes by plane. However they can
and we've seen, you know, we've seen like invoices for
like hotel stays that people traveling from Turkey came and
they stayed like in tang Kun for like a month.
So like I mean, people are gone from their from

(05:44):
their homelands. You know, longer amounts of time now that
you know, isn't a comfortable thing. So it's not like
you can relax and not like you can you know,
rest and you know mentally and physically everything like that.
So it's definitely making that part harder for people crossing.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, for sure, Like I'm seeing more and more migrants
from from Africa and like they are very much like
it's the community for them is hard to find sometimes,
like you know that, like there are different spaces for them,
and like they they end up in like distinct spaces
from other Like migrant too are coming from other areas,

(06:21):
and I know it can be very perilous for them,
Like you say, just just moving around border towns and
navigating the pitfalls of that. Yeah, it's it's becoming like
a more and more difficult and I guess kind of
complicated issue. But I think what's not particularly complicated is that, like,
no one should have to walk across the desert without water,
right like that, it's pretty basic. So maybe we could

(06:43):
go through what a water drop is, and like what
just if we could walk through, like you know, how
far you guys walk, what you're leaving at there, what
you find that people take, what you find that they
need in their journeys. And you were talking about the receipts.
I found tons of those and plane tickets and stuff
like the things that you find that help you understand

(07:04):
how better to help people. I guess.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
You want to talk about like how far the drops
are generally and all of that.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, so right now, it just depends on the season,
the weather, you know, the length of the drops we hike.
You know, a lot of our drops. We also utilize
four x fours to get us closer to areas to
start our hikes, so we don't have to walk even
more miles. That helps us out and you know, being

(07:35):
able to carry more supplies, you know, with less walking
in some areas. But when it's cooler times and the
temperatures are you know, below eighty degrees, you know we
can hike you know anywhere up to I think the
max that we did was like just about twenty. But
on the average, you know, the cool weather hikes will

(07:58):
do you know, know, right around ten miles or so.
And then when it gets hot and the desert gets
really hot out there, you know, like over one hundred
and ten degrees on a constant basis and starting to
get over one hundred and twenty degrees, you know, we
can maybe do about five miles by foot. We've kind
of ran a trial and air this season as far

(08:22):
as trying to push further to see how far we
can go, and we attempted seven miles and that I
mean we all were gassed right around the five mile mark.
So like we have to you know, set limits because
not only is the distance, but the time spent underneath
the sun without shade, and that exposure is you know

(08:43):
what drives the internal body temperature up and everything like that.
And if you don't have a chance to cool down,
that's when your body starts to wear out. You get
heat exhaustion, and you know, we want to avoid heat
stroke at all costs, and we're trying to, you know,
make sure everyone's safety is accounted for. So we have
to kind of cap that in the in the summertime
to like five miles.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah, we have to definitely make pushes in the winter
to stockpile the areas that are just simply not accessible
in the summer months. And the strategic and like paying
attention to what are entry points and can we hit
those entry points or exit points. So maybe we can't
really access a route throughout its entirety, but we can

(09:22):
hit certain points of it more safely as a team
during these like incredibly hot months. But we leave supplies
of water, food, and protective clothing, and the protective clothing
varies depending on season. So I mean a lot of
people don't really take into consideration how cold it gets
in these areas. It gets wall below freezing in the

(09:44):
winter in the mountains of Ea San Diego County, it snows.
You know, some drops have gotten snowed out. We haven't
been able to complete them because of the snow, and
so the protective clothing varies in the summer. It's things
like bendan as, cooling towels, hats, socks we leave throughout

(10:04):
the year, people's footwear not being appropriate almost almost always. Yeah,
blister can be a deacent sentence out there. So if
you get a blister and you're not able to keep
up with your group, there's a really good chance that
you're going to get left. So something like having dry
socks to change into can very well save somebody's life.

(10:26):
So we leave socks throughout the year, pop top cans
of food and of course water.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
In the wintertime, we leave sweatshirts, beanies like mittens, gloves, scarves, jackets,
sometimes puffy jackets, sometimes blankets, you know, stuff to keep
people warm when the temperatures you know, can be freezing
for you know, most of the day. You know, in

(10:52):
those harsh months of like January February, where eastern Sandewo
County gets the like the winter storms, the freezing cold,
you know, when roads get shut down, we can't even access. So,
as Jacqueline mentioned, you know, when it is cooler, we
try to go as much as we can, as far
as we can, to stockpile as much as possible for

(11:13):
when the weather prohibits us from doing so.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Otherwise, Yeah, and just give people a sense of like
the temperature swings, like I've been in the mountains down
by the border at like twenty degrees fahrenheit, which is
like minus ten ish celsius I think, And yeah, also
at one hundred and twenty which is like almost fifty
degrees celsius, and so you can they didn't swing that

(11:36):
much in one day, but there are days when it's
above forty degrees celsius. And also the low freezing in
the same day, like it's it can be really Yeah,
it's a perilous place. That's why people don't live there
as a rule, Like it's not a place that's kind
to people. So I wonder like a lot of people,

(11:56):
I know, we did a series on title forty two,
spoke to a lot of people, and a lot of
people reached out and they like they want to help,
and I understand that the border. I think for a
lot of people it is like I think reporting on
the borders as a rule is not great, like that
we tend to see migrants as numbers and not as
people a lot when when people report on the border, right,

(12:19):
and that that's kind of it happens with with more
liberal outlets as well as more right wing outlets. But
I wonder, like, a how people who aren't in town, Like,
if you're not in if you don't live in the
border lands, right, it's so you live in the middle
of America, Like, how can they help? What can they
do to kind of support the process that you're doing

(12:40):
making this horrible thing a little kind.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Of We have on all of our social media and
as well as on our website ways that people can help.
We have wish lists for items if people help want
to contribute in that way, and that's literally like contributing
the items that we leave. We also have donation links,

(13:05):
so if people want to help financially, that goes a
huge way in order to facilitate everything that we do.
It's i mean, gas is incredibly expensive. The supplies that
we don't get donated by a wish list have to
be purchased, that sort of thing. So providing material aid

(13:25):
is one way of contributing. And then aside from that,
I think just following along with this work and sharing
it and changing the conversation because, like as you said,
reporting on the border can be really tricky. People tend
to not just utilize migrants, but utilize the border as
a region in order to have talking points for either

(13:48):
like media outlets or campaigns or that sort of thing,
and the border gets treated as sort of like its
own foreign area that's not related to either country, like
nobody wants to responsibility for it. And you know, residents
of the United States also are complicit in that. And
because they don't really they just talk about the border.
They don't say, like, this is something that's happening in

(14:10):
my country. So I think sharing and discussing and becoming
informed of what's going on, and also feeling like that
kinship and ownership of like, hey, this is happening. I
mean for people, it doesn't have to be as far
as like the middle of the country. A lot of
people in San Diego don't et really engage in.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, they don't really bother.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
You know, it feels like so far away, even though
it's like twenty minutes away. Meanwhile, people are dropping dead
so close to where people live, and they choose to
turn a blind eye. So I think kind of demystifying
that for ourselves and sharing in that it goes a
long way as well.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, definitely, I think that's that's very true. It's always
amazing to me, Like how twenty eighteen or the other
big one I guess would be the end of Title
forty two, which was here in May, Like people will
become more aware of what's happening and turn up and
like it's so very radicalizing for other people in a
positive way, like get engaged them in a way they

(15:11):
haven't been engaged before. But it's I know, it's like
it shouldn't be, like we shouldn't be something we ever
get used to. How like cruel our border infrastructure is
and what it does for us, but people are just
blown away every time. Absolutely, Yeah, but I think you're right,
like witnessing it is very important, even if you know

(15:32):
you can't done it financially, if you can't get down here.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah, definitely just share stuff that you know, if you
know our organization posts something on social media, you know,
I mean, it has to be taken out as the
truth because we're out there firsthand. We're the ones on
the ground seeing reporting back, and by sharing that, you
get people you know in different parts of the country

(15:55):
or even you know, different parts of the world seeing
like the realities of the US Mexico border. Because you know,
most people in the United States don't know. If they
don't don't see it, they'll live near it. So that's
you know, something that most people rely on the media

(16:15):
and what they see on the nightly news. And you
know even that, you know, the big media outlets don't
take the most realistic or don't share the most realistic
parts of the border, you know, only to you know,
cater to their you know, their sponsors, or cater to

(16:37):
their crowds, and so a lot of people will get
like the headlines, but they don't get the real deal,
like you know, what's going on down the border, and
so sharing is is a big part of you know,
how the word spreads about the work that we do
in other organizations as well.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, I think that's very very bad age. It was
interesting to me recently. I didn't if you guys saw this,
but like the floating border barrier in Texas, like very
like this week, people have been reporting that it has

(17:18):
the blades on it, which it does, and that's fucked up,
like they shouldn't. It's horrible, but like it was kind
of illiterative that I guess none of the are that
none of the national outlets had someone who'd seen it,
because the blades have been there for months where the
prototype sat there they were in the twenty twenty solicitation
to like it just seemed odd to me that someone

(17:39):
had to tweet a video for them to like understand
because like, obviously no one had walked up to it
and checked it out, which I don't know. I think
it's hard to do border reporting in New York personally,
But yes, you're you're interested in the northern border. So
I wanted to ask about Title forty two because I
think our listeners are pretty well informed on like what

(18:00):
that was and what happened before and after that. So
did you guys notice when that came into effect? Just
to recap, I guess for people, Title forty two allowed
border patrol to bounce people straight back south without processing
them and in nearly all cases without hearing that their

(18:20):
claims were asylum if they had, and then those people
were sometimes laterally translated across the border to a border
town where they may not have had contacts or family
or any resources, and it often resulted in those people
finding themselves in an even more difficult situation than they
already were, or trying to cross in more difficult and
dangerous places to avoid that. So, did you guys notice

(18:42):
any changes like around and that came in what March
of twenty twenty as soon as they could, as soon
as they found an excuse in COVID.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Not so much from what we see because we don't
come cross people too often face to face. Did notice
that once the policy was put into place, meaning title
forty two, and you know, with the pandemic starting, we
did notice a big uptick on the amount of people

(19:18):
coming through. We've seen you know before that you know,
just a handful of people maybe like that. We'd come
across a lot of times, those people crossing at nighttime
and it wasn't something that we came across much. But
after that went into effect in twenty twenty, we started
running into a lot more people. We started seeing people

(19:39):
that knew, you know, somewhat of you know, the policy,
and that people would try multiple times every day to
you know, cross through, and if they got apprehended and
got you know, taken into Mexico, they tried again that
same day. And so we noticed a lot more of

(20:00):
our supplies being used, a lot more foot traffic, and
a lot more you know interactions with us. We started
seeing a lot more interactions with you know, board patrol
and people crossing through. And so when the policy was
coming to an end, the only thing that we really
saw increase was the amount of people trying to get

(20:24):
in before you know, quote unquote got closed off, you know,
before like the bands would go into effect, and you know,
like the no you know, you can re enter for
a you know a certain amount of years and all
that kind of stuff. So like the camp in Hkomba,
you know, you see you know, thousands of people showing

(20:45):
up as that you know stopped, as Top forty two stopped.
We really can't notice too much yet that less people
are crossing through compared to the beginning the middle of

(21:06):
the policy. Our supplies are still being used at a
high rate. Still see a fair amount of traffic come through,
you know, these these corridors and everything like that. So
it's kind of hard on our end. But you know,
we also know that people who do cross not at

(21:31):
a port of entry by foot, whether it's over a fence,
whether it's around a fence, whether it's through the desert,
over the hills. We know that people are still being
apprehended processed and released with their asylum claims. So it's hard,

(21:52):
as you know, on the board to know exactly what's
going on because a policy can say one thing, yeah,
it doesn't matter exactly, like the residential administration can say
one thing, the DHS can say one thing, and completely
different is happening, you know right right there. I don't know.

(22:15):
I mean, I can't really say honestly how much it's
it's changed from our perspective.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
I think when these things happen, like it's always really
difficult because like like I think the three of us
are aware of there's the things that are put in place,
and that's how they're going to be applied in theory,
and then those of us that have been doing this
work can anticipate how it's going to have an impact
in practice.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
So like.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
The things that are occurring now in order to so
called like curb the influx of people like using an
app or having like certain things, like all of these
things like we know and we don't have like any
faith that they were put in in good faith and

(23:01):
we know like that we can anticipate, Okay, you're going
to be banned if you don't go in through these
like really ridiculously inaccessible means, and that that word is
going to get around that people are going to freak out,
they're not going to bother, and they're going to hit
the desert. And that's what we're seeing. Whether we can

(23:21):
actually like attribute it directly to like these policy changes,
what I think we can attribute it more directly to
is like one, global migration, regardless of policy, is increasing
all over the world, and that desperation doesn't like really
wait for any kind of policy change. Two is like
the misinformation and sort of like chatter that people are

(23:43):
hearing about like this policy is changing, Oh I heard that,
Like if you don't use this app, they're going to
put you in jail. And like just like literally these
things that we're hearing on the border that is funneling
people directly into the desert because they want to avoid
any kind of interaction with border patrol, even if they
have like what would be a you know, like an

(24:05):
asylum claim. People aren't trusting because there's so much change
and uncertainty at like a policy level. There's no accessibility
to this information, there's no clarity to this information. Nobody
knows what's going on, whether it's people that are working
in border aid or people that are seeking asylum. So
people are just you know, taking their chances and hitting

(24:28):
the desert. And regardless of the policy changed, like ever
since the last like you know, like we said, like
three to five years, the increase has been like exponential
every single year. It just continues increasing.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
I one to add is that so the Title forty
two policy was used, you know, in conjunction with the
you know, national emergency with COVID and all that kind
of stuff with the country, you know, ending the the
national emergency, they couldn't you know, couldn't justify keeping Title

(25:06):
forty two in effect. And in a way, I feel
that the administration was just playing you know, political chess
and using people, vulnerable people as pawns. And so the

(25:28):
rhetoric coming out and you know, the you know, we're
taking a hard stance and this, that and the other
a crack down on immigration, and that I feel it
was the current presidential administration just trying to appeal to
a larger audience or when the election comes up next year,

(25:51):
you know can say hey, look did this, did that,
did this? And the way the numbers have been skewed
for apprehensions. You know, that's when you'd have like say
in San Luis and Yuma, Arizona, you would see you know,
hundreds and thousands of people every day showing up to
present themselves for asulnd those all got recorded as apprehension numbers.

(26:13):
So you've got in one month, you know, however many
you know, thousands. Now Title forty two ends. Now that
number shrinks down. Now, that looks better, That looks tougher on,
you know, immergion. That looks like you're doing this, that
and the other. Meanwhile, you have people just you know,

(26:34):
being vulnerable, being you know in limbo, you know, on
the other side of the border, or you have them
taking to the mountains and deserts and taking a dangerous
trek just so they can be apprehended and you know,
plead their case and try to get asylum and try
to get released into the United States. So people that

(26:57):
are are being used as pawns in this political theater
that we always talk about it as we always it
doesn't matter the administration, whether it's blue, whether it's red,
whether it's orange, whether it's old, whether it's you know, money,
it's all money. And unfortunately, you know, we have to
constantly like dispel a lot of that false narrative that

(27:19):
comes out, and it gets exhausting, but I mean it's
what we have to do because you're not going to
find that out any other way.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, you're really not. I think that's the next point.
And the point about apprehensions is good, right, They always
reported and I've heard like NPR do this report apprehensions
as if they're individuals, which they were not under Title
forty two. Like if you cross five times in a
day and get apprehended and sent back five times, that's
five apprehensions. It's one person. And they were deliberately using

(27:47):
that to make this seem like more people are coming,
and as you say, now it will seem like less
because that doesn't happen anymore. I think your point about
like the Jackling, the points about the misinformation is super
crucial and one that again often isn't reported. But like
I'm not a lawyer, and I can't give people legal advice,

(28:08):
but constantly when I'm in Tijuana, when I'm in Sonora,
when anywhere where I'm like on the southern side of
the border or on this side of the border, people
will ask me or when the people are trapped in
between the two fences that constitute the border, people will say,
hey have you had this? Hey I got this, and
they'll play like voice messages on WhatsApp often or show

(28:29):
me a WhatsApp and we'll go over. Like that's not
my understanding, you know, Like I don't think that's the case,
but it's I understand you're vulnerable, you're scared, and this
shit Like I have a PhD and speak all the
concerned languages, and I don't understand it fully, Like it's
it's complicated and petrifying if this is your only hope

(28:52):
of like a dignified life, and I think it's something
that people don't understand. It's how hard it is for
those people to get decent information about like what there's
quote unquote supposed to do, especially when we have this app,
which like I don't have a ton of foyers in
around the app, but I don't think I'll ever get
any documents back from the FED, to be honest, But yeah,

(29:14):
it's so trocious. I think.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
Yeah, no, then the parmation that people receive isn't even accurate. Like,
so whenever there is that somebody like say has come
to like our office downtown in Mihikali and like you know,
run in their paperwork and say, like, I have a
court date. They're like there was a time like during

(29:39):
you know MPP and all of that, like where people
were being giving court dates on Sundays or being given
court dates in Texas when they were sent back after
their arrest in Arizona to MEXICALI like just crazy stuff,
like like if people are even lucky enough to get
somebody to help guide them through the process, it's not

(30:01):
even like a certainty that the information that they're provided
is even going to be accurate on purpose, Like people
are given inaccurate information to wade through this process that
doesn't seem to make sense to anyone. It's it's wildly
like convoluted. I mean that's the intention, right, Like it's
not meant to be navigated in any way.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
No, No, it's not. It's meant to put love I think,
and like even with the work that our friends at
Alato do and other legal aid groups. I was speaking
to an Ethiopian friend who I met in Tijuana and
he lives in US and he helps other folks now
who have arrived more recently and he was saying that,
like getting a lawyer to represent you can cost you

(30:44):
maybe five grand, maybe twelve, and you might not have
the legal right to work, right, So where is that
money supposed to come from? And then you know, if
if your language is you know, aroma or something, it's
that much harder to navigate that system, to find useful
resources to explain it to you. And it's yeah, it's
people like to talk about like how I know that

(31:06):
their family did legal legal quote unquote migration when there
weren't these checks in place and they didn't have to
do any of this shit, And I don't know. It's
I don't think people realize how brutalizing the system is
until like they've seen it first time at.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
The closest the point, like the and the confusion, like
putting people in danger is the whole point, and it's intentional.
Like so if somebody's there and like you said, like
they speak there, they're not able to even like wrap
their heads around the process, let alone access like the
resources in order to navigate that system. Then a coyote

(31:43):
approaches them and tells them like, oh, I can take
you over here to Romosa. All you have to do
is pay me three hundred American instead of five thousand
for this, Like, Eh, you're probably not going to win
that case. The town's a mile away. The town's a
mile away, and it's a straight shot and you'll get
there in half a day and then you're good to go.
And I mean we've heard the most wild stories, like

(32:04):
even from people in the middle of the desert lost
saying they told me it was two mile walk and
that there was they were hiring in the town on
the other side of that hill.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah, like and I.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
Mean, like who wouldn't at that point it's like you
don't have a country to go back to. Yeah, Like
it's no longer like, oh, I'm fleeing my I'm migrating
from my country because there's no work. No, there is
no country to speak of, at least not for you.
And you're here and the Gooa presents you this upper
like so it's misinformation and exploitation like every single step
of the way, And a lot of the time people's

(32:37):
most straightforward avenue is through the desert, even though it's
like unbelievably hard and very very often deadly. That's like
the surest shot that they have and they take it.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Because I mean it wouldn't Yeah, no, it's it's not
like yet, like you say, people aren't like doing the
numbers and thinking they'll make more money in the US.
It's like I will die if I stay at home
or someone has already killed someone I love and I
have to leave now, And especially when like the Trump administration,
like the people aren't aware. Like towards the end of

(33:10):
the Trump administration, Trump started making claims in presidential debates
about the number of miles of war he was he
had built as far as I can work out, he
pulled out of his ass, and then the like then
they started rushing to build more wall, and they I
asked them how they came up with that number, and
then they like they did this thing where they were like, oh, well,

(33:31):
we repaired this much wall, and they were like eight
miles of border wall prototype and like a cool man,
like they didn't build that much wall, but they started
skipping the harder parts right like Valley of the Moon,
even that Boulder Pilo outside of Cumber Like, there are
areas that don't have wall, and those are areas that

(33:52):
are harder, and then that's where people try and cross
and like I love to go outside. I'm a pretty
fit person, and like Valley of the Moon, it is
a odd going, like if you're not going up the road,
like that's tough travel. And that's where people don't have
a choice been to cross right right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
That's where and that's where, like you in May, it
was I think with the first second week of May,
when you know, just a few days before Total forty
two was ending. That's where thousands of people came through.
Was through that area down into the town of Komba,
and a lot of people, I mean we're talking about

(34:30):
you know, thousands came through there, and a lot said
that they paid upwards to one thousand dollars ahead two
coyotes that brought them there and said, hey, when you
get down there, you just follow this road. Once you
get down to the bottom, there's gonna be a buz
waiting for you. It'll take you in. And then they
got stranded for days after going through that terrain. The

(34:53):
temperature that's when like the season really started shifting. So
the nights were really cold, the day time highs were
pretty hot, and I mean that was the you know
designed you know.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
Cruelty, the invasion that gave. That gave the semblance of
the invasion.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Because you could huddle people together and then claim that
you weren't detaining.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Them that right exactly, they weren't free to leave. They
said that Border patrol told them that they had arrest
them if they left the I mean I say camp
loosely because it was just like out in an open
field with that people you know, cut down branches and
turn into shelters and use areas that they cut down

(35:38):
for like fires, campfires and knights to stay warm. Yeah,
and you know, Border patrol probably didn't expect that a
people locally in Hukumba were going to care or b
that the word would get out, and so their cruel
practices that they were in acting on like the first

(36:00):
day or two of people showing up and being stranded
no food, no water, then it kind of backfired. And
then you know, I believe you went out there as well.
You saw how many people showed up to take care,
and like we were working around the clock to try
to you know, organize and make food, prepare food pack,

(36:22):
collect donations, everything. And you know that's I've gone through
that terrain. And you know, after all that was closed
down and looking through as you know, as we did
like trash cleanups and people you know, would have their
last remaining food and water that you could see like

(36:43):
coming through across you know, the area where they were
brought to and like people were shedding clothes because the
temperatures were so warm dur in the daytime and then
just wondering like okay, so they shod their clothes and
now they're like freezing down the bottom of the hill
and the terrain's too tough to go all the way
back up. Yeah, and you know they yeah, there's no

(37:03):
fence over there. And the fences you know, we've said
have always been kind of built for the most part
where people can see them. It gives the appearance to
the rest of the country that's not out there, that
there's a fence across the whole border, and you know,
go into a lot of areas where we see that
that's not the case. And also we see where border

(37:26):
fences stop and migration makes its way right around the
edge of that. Yeah, most time, but the disk now
has increased longer for the walks because instead of just
being able to walk through like an open area, now
you have to go miles out of the way to
get around to an opening and the fence or go

(37:47):
up and over a mountain, and you know, doing that
in the summertime, you exhaust yourself from the strategist hike
on top of the unbearable heat, and then you pass away,
you know, an eighth of a mile from a fence,
you know, as someone that we know that happened to
them a couple of years ago. So it's yeah, as

(38:09):
you're saying, like the fences and like where they're not put,
it's it's just a point of cruelty and part of
the prevention through the terrence policy that's been going on
for you know, almost thirty years now, and yeah, definitely, yeah,
and the CBP one app app and all kinds of
suff that's just another extension of prevention through the turns

(38:32):
by making it harder for people and pushing people to
ways that they can try to get through or you
know what they think they can try to get through easier.
And as Jacquelin said, it's just it's become more and
more dead here, and every year the numbers go up
of confirmed deaths, but that doesn't count the amount of
people that go missing every year.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, or the people who like board the patrol and
find and they you know, their numbers are any the
people who they found. And that's the areas that go
like if people die for the North or yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
Or the death that they they deliberately miscategorize as non
migrant death and they're just John Doe's Jane Doe whatever.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
You know.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
They just say like, oh, you know, cause of death unclear,
or cause of death for exposure, but they don't necessarily
call it a migrant death even though someone you know,
traveling with a backpack in the desert. Yeah, and you know,
like say that they were migrating just because they had
you know, under and passport on them that all the

(39:35):
time too. Be so all of this is like we
don't know the scope of their cruelty. Like it's just scary,
is that, Like it's so much bigger than we even know,
even like those of us that are like in it
every day.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yeah, there's no numbers like I I would in a
sense left to in a sense would be horrible. I
don't think it should matter, Like I don't think it
should matter how many people, Like every single one of
those is a tragedy and it's someone's mum or dad
or brother. I kind of wanted to to maybe talk
about like one incident that if you're comfortable doing it

(40:08):
like that you might be familiar with that I think
can give people a sense of how dehumanizing this is
and how cruel this is. You guys, I know you're
familiar with it. But the young women who died on
the shrine trail in was it winter of twenty twenty
or winter of twenty twenty one?

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yes, that was February twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's right before COVID. So for people who
aren't as familiar, can I spoke a little bit about
it in our series, but can you describe kind of

(40:53):
the process that if you're comfortable, I know, it's like
a it's a pretty horrible thing, but can you describe
like like how they crossed and what happened to them?

Speaker 2 (41:06):
I mean, we can give you like some of the
background that was like in a newspaper article that we
come to learn.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, sure, we have a like direct communication. Yeah yeah, yeah,
you're not in content. I just like I think it
would be helpful for people to realize, like, you know, this,
this is what happened to them. And then also that
you guys have been able to respond after that happened
to like at least try and and help like deploy
kind of resources to that a bit less of a

(41:34):
treacherous crossing.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
So as the situation was unfolding, it was nighttime and
there was like a freak storm that came through eastern
San die County around around the area of I think

(41:57):
like Live Oak Springs Mount Lagoon area, and it was
just you know, raining and cold before, but like later
on that day it kind of turned into snow and
just turned into heavy winds, like zero visibility snowstorm. And

(42:19):
these three sisters that were from Wahaka, who've crossed over
for work multiple times, came worked, went back home, you know,
for you know, whatever season, came back, worked, went back home.

(42:39):
And it was my understanding that they were trying to
save up enough money from what they made here in
the United States to open up their own business. And
so the day came when they were crossing over the
they came through I think like in the Campo area,

(43:01):
I think it was, and they were led by two
brothers that had crossed previously in the same spot and
knew the trail of which to go. But I believe
it was their first time actually leading people through and

(43:23):
not just themselves coming through. So they you know, they
remember the way got up close to where the shrine is,
of the shrine trail. There's a little shrine up there
that people would you know, leave little little symbols and

(43:45):
tokens and little items behind, mostly to you know, the
Virgin of Wlupe. And from that point it is that
that's the last time you can be hiking on that
trail that far north and turn around and still see Mexico.

(44:08):
Anything beyond that, it's kind of like the point of
like you can't see Mexico, like you've got to keep
moving forward. You've already gone, you know. At this point
it's close to thirty I think air miles, so like
you know, you know, walking miles is a lot more
than that. Yeah, And they were at this kind of

(44:32):
like rock boulder outcropping just about five minutes walk shy
of the shrine when the sisters couldn't keep going anymore.
And because of the extreme weather, in the extreme cold,
they were soaking wet from the rain and then the

(44:55):
you know, the sub freezing temperatures with the snowstorm they
couldn't keep going anymore, and so they were kind of
huddled up underneath of this boulder. It's the only spot
that kind of gave like a little bit of shelter
from that storm. Yet, I mean, those rocks are you

(45:17):
know ice cubes, you know, being out there that long.
So the two brothers I believe, left to try to
get cell phone signal because you know, you're you're up
pretty high in the mountains. I think that elevation up
there on the mountain, I think it's somewhere around five
thousand feet more so that that location where we're where

(45:42):
they passed away, and the brothers they took off to
try to get cell phone range to call and you
know EMS, which turns out to be you know, border
patrol in that region, and so got to hold a
border patrol order. Patrol arrived to where the brothers were,

(46:04):
and first thing, you know, before you know, rushing to
try to make a rescue anything, they you know, detained
and arrested the brothers for you know, for you know,
human smuggling, trafficking, you know, just you know, being coyotes.
And then they put in efforts of trying to rescue.

(46:26):
By the time I believe that they got to the
three sisters. Two of them had already passed away, and
there was one that was still barely alive, unconscious, and
due to the whether, as Board Patrol has stated, the agents,

(46:47):
the four star you know rescue agents, the search and
trauma rescue, they had to take off. They couldn't airlift
the last remaining sister out because there was zero visibility.
The helicopter couldn't even get like find them, couldn't get
like anywhere close to them, couldn't hover because the wind
was blown so hard. It was just about a whiteout condition. So,

(47:10):
I mean, the most you know fucked situation possible, and
Border Patrol in order to make sure it didn't turn
into from a triple fatality to however many of them

(47:33):
there were, I think there was three or fours they
were out there, so to you know, in order to
save their lives, they took off. They put the last
remaining sister like in a like a puffy overall type
of situation, and they had taken her wet clothes, They

(47:57):
cut her wet clothes off her and you know, were
actively trying to warm her with like heat packs and
wrapping her and so they took off and kind of
just like left her, you know, with basically as they said,
the best you know, chances possible of survival, even though
someone being left on their own in that condition there's

(48:19):
zero chances of survival. Border patrol took off, allegedly injured themselves,
you know, in doing so, got frostbited, et cetera. I
think it was the next day, came back out for
the would turned out to be the recovery, and all
three sisters had passed away, you know, from you know,

(48:40):
freezing to death. And so as we learned about that,
you know, as the situation was unfolding, we reached out
to the journalists who wrote the article in local San
Diego Union Tribune. His name is Alex Riggins, and through

(49:02):
you know, some back and forth contact, he was covering
the trial of the two brothers that brought the sisters
through their in court for their deaths, and reached out
to see if we could find out any information, if
he could, if Alex could let us know like maybe
where the shrine trail was, or maybe where the location

(49:24):
of the recovery was just something that we would have
so we can, you know, put it on a map,
figure out how to get there and get boots on
the ground to leave supplies, you know, a few times
a year, whether it's going to be really hot or
really cold. We wanted to make sure that, you know,
we responded to the crisis as we found out about it.

(49:50):
That's something that we unfortunately have had to do all
too common in this work, is that's we're planning the
way that we learn.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
Yeah it's too late.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Sometimes, yeah, yeah, a lot of you have to learn
efforts too late. And that's part of our expansion of
areas that we cover. That's how we learn stuff, and
that's how we work at preventing you know, further suffering
and further deaths. So we got more or less a

(50:25):
good location and one of our team members at the time,
he went out on a weekday that he had off,
and he just went kind of driving around in the
area and start hiking out in this area that looked
like from the photos that were in the newspaper could

(50:47):
have been this location. And he put in a long
hike that day and he found the clothing that was
removed from the last he found the like the puffy overalls.
He found a bunch of medical equipment, like emergency equipment

(51:11):
that was used for you know, the three sisters during
that process. And shortly after that, I think it was
just like a couple of weeks, we got together some
of our strongest hikers and we decided to go out
there and leave a bunch of supplies. And that is

(51:33):
it is a hard, hard hike, whether you're you know,
carrying thirty five forty pounds on your back or you're
just carrying, you know, a backpack with like a bottle
of water and some food. Like, it's hard no matter what.
So we got up there and we left supplies, and
you know, we've been going back usually before seasons change,

(51:55):
whether it gets hot gets cold, and we we track
to see if you know, anything's been taken. And it
doesn't appear that that trail gets too much use, but
it does get some use. Yeah. So you know, I
don't know if if the three sisters passing away they

(52:16):
had anything to do with like future travel for people
on the trying trail or what, but you know, we
make that commitment in their honor and to prevent anything
like this ever happening again.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
Yeah, sent me a very sad, very sad situation and like, yeah,
it so many things have to go wrong and so
many people have to turn a blind eye, I guess
for the three people to die.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
Like you know, there's blatant negligence on the part of
border Patrol very regularly, given that they are supposedly like
as James mentioned, the emergency medical service that's out there,
and there is outright blatant, deadly discrimination that occurs when

(53:06):
it comes to providing emergency services for migrants. In this case,
they prioritize apprehension over saving people. Every moment is going
to count and regardless of what the conditions were, those
are the conditions, and that's the story that they're reporting.
I think we rightfully are skeptical of anything that they

(53:27):
say when it comes to rescues and how they prioritize
doing so when we have seen entirely the opposite occur
on a regular basis when they have the opportunity to
provide aid them electing to do so. You know, going
back to Hakumba, when people were out there and they

(53:49):
had nothing, They weren't being provided a sip of water
for days and days and days. Border patrol could have
done that. If they are the emergency services they could
have provided emergency aid when it comes to a rescue
like this, they have the agency, they are the agency.
They have the agency to deprioritize processing somebody for apprehension
and prioritizing rescue, and they chose not to do it.

(54:12):
Like time and time again, we see these situations and
I think, like when you know, before we started recording
and you asked, like, what's the thing that like we
want to talk about that doesn't often get talked about,
And I think it's this. I think it's the It's
not just like the surveillance and the patrolling and all
of that stuff that to humanizes migrants, but like when

(54:33):
they're in danger, they're regarded as less than human by
the because the only agency that's out there to help
them is like the reason that they're in danger in
the first place. So we have come across multiple search
and rescues and that aren't migrant related, just being out
in the desert where either a US citizen or in

(54:55):
one instance, a tourist was lost in the desert, and
they're response is night and day when there's a migrant
that's lost and we are calling for assistance, you know,
any kind of can a search be initiated. Can we
get like the response is so blase and minimal, and

(55:19):
there's no accounting, there's no holding them accountable for acting
or failing to act right, and it's blatant, like and
I think that's the thing that like the general public
that isn't involved in this work like should know about
how cruel it is and how little the response is

(55:42):
when somebody is lost, when they're dying, when they're dead,
like us having to call the coroner repeatedly to have
children's bones picked up. That would not happen if that
child was not presumed migrant. So this is like we
have story after story after story of like situations like
this is just one tragedy, but there's a lot of

(56:06):
could have, should have, would have like on the end
of like eight organizations that we carry, And it doesn't
seem to ever be like a shared weight with any
of the agencies that actually have the ability to respond
to this kind of thing in like an organized way.
They don't care, they don't do anything about it.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Yeah, and there's like so much money spent on our border, right,
Like I remember in Houcumber, I was like sitting underneath
this thing for shade and then I like coming, Oh yeah,
just think us a million dollars, right that little trailer
with the solar panels that intercepts the signals, like, and
they didn't give these people a bottle of water, Like

(56:46):
all the water came from other people, from random San
Diego people who bought it, right, Like, and it's just
such a strange priority. Well that's strange. It's a cruel
and horrible priority choice. Right to prioritize is that kind
of like enforcement of a human lives like which are
being lost? And it's the same like you know, ever

(57:09):
reported in Arizona or a turn, I spend a lot
of time there. I spent a lot of time here,
reported in Texas a couple of times. Like, it's the
same all across the border, right, the priority is not
rescuing people. It's and it's not even particularly enforcing the
law as it's written. It's just stopping people coming here.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
Selectively though, yeah, selectively because they do let a significant
amount of people through, Like even like in Hakumba, when
people that weren't familiar with this whole kind of like
smoke and mirror show of the border were coming and responding,
they were saying like, well, why are they letting them through?
Why is this open over here? Why is like the

(57:50):
amount of surveillance. You know, We've had people come out
of water drops and say like, oh, should we be
hiding the water?

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Should we be doing this? And that?

Speaker 3 (57:56):
Should we like they have eyes on the whole desert.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
So yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
It's they do there. The point is to stop people
from coming through, but not completely right is that labor
that's coming through?

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yeah, that.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
They're selective and how much they like, you know, how
much the gasket is being opened and shut.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
Yeah, and in different sectors at different times, like it
seems like things have done and even like, yeah, there
are The other thing I think that people who don't
live on the border don't realize is to what degree
every single person here, whether they give a shit or not,
is surveiled because they live near the border. Like yeah,
but we saw them twenty eighteen with a lot of

(58:42):
a lot of friends of mine who who can't go
to Mexico anymore, right, who have flagged passports. Yeah you too, Yeah,
so many people I know. I yeah, I don't know
how I went over return at that time, but I
guess managed to avoid it. But yeah, it's it's it's that.
And then like I have been in the middle of
nowhere in the desert and found cameras, surveillance towers, right

(59:07):
like stuff that would not be the Constitution is largely irrelevant,
but like there wouldn't be legal or just like unjustifiable
anywhere else, and like this spans from here to like
our Otume friends in Arizona to Texas. Right like, if
you live on the border, like or any within one

(59:29):
hundred miles of the border, right, the border can come
to you. It doesn't matter if you care or not.
It doesn't matter if you consider yourself to be like
an immigrant to the US, or if you've sort of
decided that doesn't apply to you or you don't care
about those people. Like then it doesn't matter that surveillance
still impacts you, and often it impacts like our indigenous friends,

(59:51):
right like like my myome friends Kumii friends had their
graveyards bulldos to build the wall. And yeah, even if
you don't even if you think the war is great,
that your cell phone is still there through distinctray down.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
I know it's wild, Like how much people who are
like very you know, right wing anti like you know,
pro like freedom and all this stuff, like will very
readily give up those freedoms and in exchange for like
constant surveillance, like if it justifies the means of like
you know, their big try or like whatever, like their

(01:00:27):
worldview is like they're they're suddenly like very pro border patrol,
very pro cop very true. Well that's like in direct
conflict with like everything else that they're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Right, but yeah, it's freedom for who I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Yeah, well also goes with the same people are saying, well, well,
not breaking the law and then what do you have
to do about Yeah, well everything starts at the border.
So the surveillance, the facial recognition, the plate scanners, all
that stuff started the border. And now we see that
just recently, like the San Diego City Council approved to
have the like the street like eras and all that

(01:00:59):
kind of stuff, the lamps and all those you know,
one hundreds of cameras that are going to be out
there like that same type of technology, and like, well,
if you're not breaking the law, it's like okay, we'll
give a little bit of time until you're not breaking
a law, and then like stuff still happens. I mean,
that's that's how you know things. You know Snowball.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Hey everyone, Shortly after we finished talking about why San
Diego's lamp posts are also spies, my internet once again died.
So that's what we're going to end it today. It's
already been a long episode. But what I would like
you all to know is that you can find Border
Kindness online. You can find them on Instagram. You can

(01:01:43):
find James there Brolo el Cordero prot to be able
to work out how to spell that, and you can
find them on Facebook, and you can find them on Instagram,
and you can pretty much find them anywhere you go
on the Internet by searching border Kindness and like jameson
they in his I'm looking at his Instagram profile right now,
it's Brolo el Cordero. I guess b r O l

(01:02:06):
O e l c O r d E r O.
James has a wish list, an Amazon wish list, so
if you if you're not close to San Diego, then
you can you can just click on there and buy
them something. I'm sure you could collect donations and send
those as well. So there are a lot of different
ways you could help. But I hope you all enjoyed this.
If you're in town and you want to help, go

(01:02:27):
hike with them, and you can reach out to them
on social media as well, and I'm sure they'd be
happy to hear from you. Thanks so much for listening. Goodbye.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
Thanks for listening.